We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Brandi Carlile Has Returned to Herself

Episode Date: October 23, 2025

Brandi Carlile joins Glennon for her rawest and most vulnerable conversation yet, sharing the story behind her deeply personal new album Returning to Myself—the songs that broke her open, the love that holds her steady, and what it means to truly come home. In this family meeting, Brandi bares her heart and reminds us we’re only here for the blink of an eye—so we must stay relentlessly joyful, soft, and human—and we must, together, find the beauty in the wildfire sun.  About Brandi:  Brandi Carlile is an eleven-time Grammy-winning singer, songwriter, producer, and activist. Over two decades and landmark albums like By the Way, I Forgive You and In These Silent Days, she has co-founded the Highwomen, launched the all-female Girls Just Wanna Weekend festival, founded the Looking Out Foundation, and helped bring Joni Mitchell back to the stage for a historic, Grammy-winning live album.  Brandi Carlile’s new album, Returning to Myself, will be out October 24th.  Follow We Can Do Hard Things on: Youtube — @wecandohardthingsshow   Instagram — @wecandohardthings TikTok — @wecandohardthingshow

I don't know if it's just like my dykiness, but like I say, I'll say to like my, you know, seven year, I'll be like, oh, you look so beautiful. I can hardly talk to you right now. And Catherine's like, that is not the right thing. Stop talking to her. Hey, Pod Squad. I'm sitting in my basement and waiting for Brandy Carlisle and Catherine Carlyle to arrive at my house. They're about to get here.

They're about to come down here. and Brandy is about to sit with me and talk to me about her new album, returning to myself, which is the most personal portrait of Brandy Carlisle's mind and heart that I've ever witnessed. And as Brandy's fan and more importantly, dear friend, I'm so excited for you to meet this side of Brandy. Kath's going to be here, Abby's going to be here, and I just don't think that you're going to miss, want to miss this conversation because Brandy's about to get more vulnerable and raw than

she ever has. And the Carlisles are people who have changed our lives and who have become family to us. Brandy Carlisle's new album, which is my personal favorite that Brandy's ever written, is called Returning to Myself, and it is out tomorrow. When I was little, I was really, really cute. Are we recording? Okay. I was a really, really cute little kid.

And then I actually remember the energy of that power. Oh. I only remember energetic things. Like, I remember the power of that. I remember like a leaning in of a ten. attention of a whatever, like a power in the world. And when I 2012, I got so, the kids would say chopped. Like I just, just the acne was so severe and the hair and the all the things.

I got so, it was like a dramatic turn and I could feel energetically the pulling away. Oh, whoa. Like the power of a beautiful little kid and then losing all the power. And like I even felt it, I feel like I felt it even from my parents, like a, wow, what are we going to do? So, I don't know. Anyway, Kath sent me the new album a long time ago, and I have avoided listening to it. And the reason I avoid listening to your music when it's new is that I always feel like I have

like a vase inside of me that is very full. and my job is to make no sudden movements to make sure that the vase doesn't spill out and your music makes things spill very much so I knew I was going to need some time I also our mutual daughter Tish had told me repeatedly like when she came home from the studio with you she said something about this being the best album.

And I stopped her and said, you seriously think this is going to be Brandy's best album? And she said, no, what I'm saying to you is this is the best album ever. And she's not like super dramatic about things that she says. So I was like, okay. Anyway, this last Thursday morning, I woke up at 7 a.m. And I was by myself upstairs and spent hours listening to every song all the way through, then over again.

And I think that she was right. I think it's the most incredible expression of you. And I'm not musically knowledgeable. So I just want to talk to you about the lyrics and what it all means and like what you were thinking. Yeah. What are the thoughts that were, that created this album? Well, thank you. It's so fucking.

Do you know that it's so fucking good? I mean, I know I'm really, really, really. in love with it you know i'm i'm hesitating to like lean on cliches like proud of it and stuff like that but the love i feel for the album is kind of it's jarring to me so i want to listen to it all the time and you know i feel awkward saying that but like i think it's good for me because i'm proud of all of my albums and stuff but i've never like loved ones so personally that it's not that I don't care what anyone thinks about it at the end of the day but it's that like I don't care enough to change a single like thing about it and it just it's got me in

some place that I haven't been had access to for a really long time we have a word for that in writing which is the word stett have you heard about that no tell me so when I first started writing I would get all my edits back from my editor and I would be like oh that is correct and I would just change everything because like I thought that mine was wrong and they were right and they knew. Yeah. And then over time I would get it back and I'd be like, no. Then I learned the word stat, which in publishing means I said what I said. It means leave it. Like even if it's a mistake, it's my mistake. And that takes like being so personal in your writing that you're like whether that's right or wrong or that's exactly what I meant. Yeah. I take responsibility.

for it. Yeah. No matter what that means. So why did you choose returning to myself as the first song? Why is that, what does that mean? Because it feels like what you had to do to write the album. Yeah. It's returned to yourself. Well, it was the first thing I wrote when I put pen to paper was a poem called Returning to Myself. And I didn't know I was starting an album or anything, you know. It was like, I came here to do The Hollywood Bowl with Joni. And the lead up to that was just incredibly challenging for so many reasons. But the main reason was that Joni had returned to herself in such a way that she just chose very difficult music to play at the Hollywood Bowl.

She had a point that she wanted to make. She had a stand that she wanted to take. It was even a last stand of sorts for her, you know, because she's already back to painting. But basically it was hard work for all of us to catch up to where Joni was when she wrote Hajira and learned those songs. and his era is an album all about this this pilgrimage you know this kind of like journey into self and so I'm sitting next to her and I'm seeing these lyrics come across the screen I'm seeing her rediscover her lyrics and I just had a really profound experience of being totally consumed by

the life of another artist and am reading these lyrics about returning to oneself and feeling uncomfortable about it, like convicted by it and just kind of almost offended in a way. I know that feeling. You're like justifying your way of being. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, I don't agree with this. You know?

And meanwhile, I'm like not eating and I'm just drinking coffee all day long and like not sleeping and I'm just thinking about guitar chords. So I put, I put. this trip to go to New York at the end of a work trip I was calling it like I was going to end the Hollywood Bowl I was going to go on plane flight of the East Coast meet this guy called Aaron Desner and write some songs with him and I didn't know if the songs were for me or if they were from him or somebody else or whatever but I'm not I'm not a big co-writer I've never done it and I want to shake myself out of this of this way of doing things so I'm like end of a work

trip I'll finish the Hollywood Bowl I'll go meet this nice fella and When I landed in New York City, it wasn't New York City, it was upstate New York. And I didn't even pay enough attention in my life to know where I was going to be landing. And I ended up driving this rental car out to this middle of nowhere and to this guy's like barn. And I realized to my horror and yours that I had to sleep there. In a barn. Yeah. Well, it was very nice barn.

But it was like I thought I was going to be, you know, in the city. at you know at a hotel and you know he went to bed and I went up to this room and realized that I had flown to the East Coast by myself without even an instrument I didn't know what I was doing there and I was still taken aback by the weekend and I just sat down and wrote the poem returning to myself and I was just so miserably and utterly alone miserably and utterly alone. It's a nightmare for me. Why?

And like what is it? Because I'm, you and Kath truly and deeply have taught me, like if there's two ways of being, turning inward and outward, like inward to self or outward to community in life. And truly you two have taught me to live a little more in community in lots of ways. A lot of the way I do things have changed, has changed. changed since I watched how you guys live, trusting people, losing yourself in other people in a beautiful way. What does, if there's like a consciousness that's always shoved either outward or inward,

do you feel more comfortable outward and what does it mean to turn? Like, because you once told me, I don't self-reflect. What does that mean? That's all I do. What do you do then? I think I just kind of have a primal, carnal way of being. Like, I know how to be alone with people. You know, I sit how I'm going to sit.

I drink what I'm going to drink. I do what I'm going to do. I lean where I'm going to lean. You know, whereas my wife, she's British, so it's like, you know, if somebody knocks on the door, it's like, yeah, it's, yeah. you're performing yeah well it's yeah it's hosting it's like do we have the right biscuits and I've got put the kettle on and you know she's gonna have makeup on and like this whole thing and I'm just like you can come in there's the fridge right like I am playing Zelda right now or or it might be like what's open a bottle of wine and lean in what is going on in your life

you know I have to hear about this new person you're seeing or whatever like it could be a really intense connection or it could be just a total alone with someone thing but I don't like alone. I don't, I don't know why. I'm just really uncomfortable with it. And I'm actually now getting to a point because I'm in my 40s where I'm fascinated by why I'm so uncomfortable with it. So what's in the aloneness? Like you're sitting in the barn. Yeah. And you're stuck with yourself with no other distractions. You're not in the city. Yeah. What is in there? I don't know. Like none of the things that I like to do with my hands. I don't know. Like none of the things that I like to do with my hands and distract myself with.

I feel like I'm wasting time. I feel like I'm not getting any juice from anything. And I'm just kind of like dormant. So when you say in the song, returning to myself is a lonely thing to do, but it's the only thing to do. What does that mean? It was the only thing I could do.

So that just means, like this night, apparently this is the only thing. I think I can do. No video games. No fishing bowl. Just like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just a a moleskin and a pen and a bunch of sharp pencils. I love short pencils, you know. Okay. So when you say, I love you and you and you. Yeah. Is that Kath and, and Evangeline and Elijah? At one point, yeah. Okay. I love you and you and you. And returning to myself is returning me. to you? What does that mean? What does that mean? I think I've come to the conclusion that I had success in music

kind of later in life than a lot of other artists do. And I just got like firehosed with opportunity in a way that really triggered this ambition in me where I just wanted to do everything. and be everywhere and take every opportunity to live every day. Like it's my last, I really don't have a problem staying in the moment. It's a superpower. But I do tend to believe that the only thing that matters is the moment. And so I think I just, like, did everything that I ever wanted to do in, like, six years and realize that maybe returning to myself is returning myself to my family.

what is a woman overseas about like you don't know i mean i'm deeper and deeper more upset kath just gave me a look i'm deeper and deeper more obsessed with each song so just don't get straight in but okay that song is about kath yeah okay and i'm it starts with a line that says a woman i know i went abroad to see you and then the end says a woman no one knows that is the last line yeah so what are you saying with that song it's so beautiful are you saying that you know kath and no one else does or are you saying that you don't know kath what are you saying well you know that feeling where it's like you've just maybe you've sat down with somebody like yourself who's just really engaging and charismatic who just asks like a lot of

questions and the next thing you know you've just been talking and then you leave and you're like spiraling because you're like I just talked for two hours and I didn't ask a question and what was what is it about that woman like why didn't we go there in in terms of her you know why didn't we scratch the surface of her how did she trick me what was this what is this voodoo like how did I get drawn into this self-revealing oversharing overly emotional inside out place. Who is she? And I mean, I don't mean to overexpose my darling life, but she does that. And she does it so effectively, you know, and interested is interesting. So she's very interesting because she's very interested. But I know there's more in there. And I really felt it in a glaring way

when we lost her dad because every time we'd go somewhere to sit down for dinner or we'd go to somebody's house in the evening I would be like okay

Cass's going to talk about losing her dad but she would turn on the she'd flip on the cath switch and we'd only hear you know this poor person would get tricked into this

you know do you know I'm talking about Of course I do and so I just I wrote this song I guess out of like love and frustration and just like you know you've got to open up and even married to her even I am sitting next to this puppeteer you know who's just so

incredibly socially graceful and charismatic and I'm proud to walk into every room with her because she just wins the day yeah she does you know what I mean everyone knows what you mean by that yeah Yeah. But it is interesting because I don't think you ever leave Kath's presence without feeling absolutely loved and amazing about yourself. That's true. And then there is the question of, I wonder if Kath felt loved. That's what I'm saying.

That's the whole song. Like I wonder. Yeah. But it is quite dominant. And that's why it's spelled a woman overseas as EES because it's like that is a environment that is controlled by a really emotionally intelligent person. It's witchy. It is.

I respect it. Yeah, it's kind of hot. Yeah. Never changed, Kath. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard Things for free. October is National Women's Small Business Month. And I just want to take a moment to recognize it because there are over 11 million women, running small businesses in the U.S. right now. And, you know, it's not easy being a business owner.

You have to juggle running your business with all the other things in your life. And if you need to hire on top of it, it's just a lot. And so that's why you need ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter makes hiring a breeze. So you find the perfect match for your job fast. And today, you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com slash weekend. What I love is how quickly it works, truly. And the minute you post a job, ZipRecruiter's matching technology gets to work, showing you strong candidates. You can even see right away how many job seekers are in your area and how many are qualified for the role that you need to fill. Hire the right people for your business with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And

right now, you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com slash we can. Again, that's ziprecruiter.com slash we can. Ziprecurter, the smartest way to hire. Here's something I've learned about love. It's not always about the grand gestures. Most of the time, it's the small, thoughtful moments that hold everything together. That's why I love Zell. It makes it so easy to show up for people in those small but super meaningful ways. One of my way back friends recently was having just the worst day at work. She reached out to me when she was at Boiling Point. We shared texts back and forth with her venting and me raging on her behalf and also sending

her puppy photos, the things that friends do for each other. After we got off, I was thinking about how she was getting ready to take her long train ride back home, which I knew she hated even on regular days and was. super hate after such a terrible day. Then I realized I could send her a little money via Zelle for a car ride home instead. It was a tiny spur of the moment decision but was so easy to do because of Zell to give her a reason to do something kind for herself. That's what I love about Zell. Whether it's a birthday gift across the country, chipping in for a group surprise, or simply saying I'm here on a hard day. Zell is there when you need to send or receive money so you can be there

when it counts. When it counts, send money with Zell. Peloton is shaping the future of fitness with the brand new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus powered by Peloton IQ. So as you might imagine, I'm kind of particular about how I work out. So I have the hardest time running on my own nowadays, got a hurt ankle, but in fact, I just can't really do it anymore. And the new Peloton Plus Tread has been a game changer because I can mix things up and I definitely need that variety. The Tread Plus has it all. It combines running, lifting, recovery, everything you want. It's been a game changer for me because I can't run hard on my foot right now because I have foot and ankle shoes. But the tread is forgiving enough and gives me enough incline to get a solid sweat in. But what I love most is that the screen

swivels. And so it guides me through an awesome weight session after I get on the Tread on that incline. It's really amazing, truly. And it also has my high school hers used it a few times. So I don't know what that says, but I think it's probably a good thing. Seriously, I am stunned at how much I didn't know I needed this tread. Plus, Peloton IQ also builds me a personalized plan, weekly classes that match my mood and my goals. Guided by the instructor, I connect with most. And the swivel screen, like I said, it's just genius. You got to check this thing out, you guys let yourself run lift sculpt push and go explore the new peloton cross training tread plus at one peloton dot com me without you can you talk to you without me without me a lot of

people think say me without you which is in i think that's interesting too well tell us the origin how did that start and what does it mean what is it about well it's funny how many songs in this album will start with you and abbey and tish but that one did don't you remember i mean i know human what how did that one start yeah yeah well i came here to work with Elton and you and Abby started taking evangeline to her soccer lessons you know because we do things in a community we do life together we're like very real friends and I was going to take her to like she'd done like one practice she was totally you know Abby was like doing the pep talks the whole thing yeah she was like got so invested so fast and she wouldn't come to Vegas with me right to go do

the pink shows and um i was i was like telling you backstage at tissue show actually of all places i was telling you yeah and i watched her walk over to the team and she had this like her shoulders were different and she was like you know she gave me like a thumbs up and she just walked away from me and then she had this whole other personality while she was like addressing these kids and it was so vulnerable but like uh and i was like there you are that's that's the you that's the one without, you know, without me. And you're like, the you without me. And you stopped me and you.

Are you serious? You, you. I remember we talked about this. I didn't know we. Oh, you stopped me. And you said, well, like, wow, like, wow, think about that. And I went straight back that night and got in bed and just wrote that whole song. It's so amazing because, and it's so parallel because I, when I see Tish doing music,

that is clearly you without me. She is on stage. Can you fath them? But it's the same like you with Eva and soccer. Yeah. It feels to me like, you know, the Geppetto and Pinocchio. Jepetto's like, you're a real boy. You just watch like your person come to life and be something that you didn't contribute to them.

And you're like, I would be so terrified to do that. What is going to happen to you? Yes. And I can't even reach you. Mm-hmm. You know? Yes. You're in a world where I cannot go.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it almost, it almost doesn't matter how small the thing is. Like the people that have come up to me with the You Without Me stories now, that is my favorite part about my job is the way that my meaning universalizes and becomes someone else's meaning. And it's like I get such joy out of hearing. you know a dad come up to me and be like I was on the dance floor last night with my little girl and she like asked for some time and she joined another group of little girls and I watched her

try to move her body and look like everyone else and take this big risk you know right in front of me I couldn't reach her she didn't even want me there and I don't know what this feeling is and I'm like that's the you without me feeling and the dream is like one of the lines in that song that makes you want to jump off a cliff is um the part that's give me a quick thumbs up before you go i mean we just dropped tish off from college and when i listened to that song all i was thinking about was when we closed the door i mean tish and i are not unemotional people so it we were emotional and it was all of us and i kept thinking please just give me that little thing like I'm leaving just please like make eye contact or like

just the little thing that's like just turn back yeah something yeah and that's some she did what she do it was just a look in her eyes it was like an extra bless you cat it was just like an extra second of like I understand what this moment is and like mom you can do this it wasn't like tissue can do this Yeah. It was a moment of, I understand, I'm marking this for us. I'm clocking this between the two of us with this tiny gesture. And you've got this to me. Yeah.

Is what it felt like. Yeah. I've got this. Oh. I could see you're doing that. Mm-hmm. I feel like the thing with, I mean, your guys' relationship is so unique with all of your children. But there's this thing with you and Tish that I can really identify with where

you have such a spiritual similarity you know the power of synthesis understanding what's potent and what's important about a really big thing um debilitating empathy yeah um you know like a calm quiet sort of wisdom that doesn't really have a bunch of judgment in it in all of these things but then and you're both artists you're both writers but but she's this different kind of artist to you. So you're going to see her singing as this like scary superpower. I do. You know? I bet I bet you do. I can't. I do. I do. Can you tell me the story of war with time because Tish did and it blew my mind. The airplane. Oh, that. Oh, that's just one of the stories with any war with time. But the whole, then tell me.

the whole thing too. Whatever you want to talk about that. No, that's a cool, that's a really specific story that I remember from, you know, I didn't go on an airplane until I was 17 years old. And that's like, that's quite an age, I think, to, and I was alone. And I was just flying to Idaho, but it was like that feeling of when a plane takes off and it lands, nobody can, nobody tells you about that. Like you can't be warned about it. And, uh, You know, it was also pre-9-11 when I flew for the first time. And then, like, the second or third time I flew, I was going to the East Coast. And that's, like, a whole other thing.

And it was like right when JetBlue had put, like, TVs in the backs of seats. And that was a whole other thing. It was, like, this amazing technology. You can see, like, live news, live TV. And there was a plane that was landing. somewhere east and the landing gear hadn't had turned and stopped and so the wheels weren't facing the right direction and this plane like circled around and until it had to land trying to figure out a way to get the landing gear to go back well the news had picked up on it

and was sensationalizing what was going to happen to the plane when it landed they were doing like cartoon you know pre-enactments if you will about what would happen to the plane if this thing was a stopper and showing the plane breaking apart and tilting one side and the wing breaking off and lending a fiery death

and like about halfway through their campaign of you know morbid attraction they had realized that the people that were up in this plane could see what they were doing because it was a jet blue flight

and I saw something in the media that I'd love to see now, where it collectively took accountability for what it was doing and changed the whole sentiment to kind of that post-9-11, like, galvanized, you're going to be okay, we're all behind you, you know, kind of like messaging. And I just remember staring at a screen in the airport wondering what was going to happen to that plane when it landed. And And it was absolutely fine. It shot like, you know, flame is out to the side. But the impact, like the takeaway lesson for me, was how damaging the collective of people

can be and then how healing it can be if it wants to be. And it was just such a message for like a 19-year-old, 20-year-old, I don't know how old a kid, you know. And I also made me feel like I'm not home anymore. Like I'm in the big world now, you know. Is that the moment? That's what a war with time is about. It happened. That's what I mean about the broken wheel, you know. But when I landed in New York City for the first time, I just was so grown up.

It was like, this is it. I've arrived as an fully functioning adult. And I think anybody to land in a really big city for the first time feels that way. But New York has a specialness to it. And I just have this thing where it's like that was the, moment for me like that was the turning point and i know that like our kids are going to have it wherever it is and whatever it is and i want that but like i'm never going to want it consciously so don't even ask me yes just do it you're smiling with so much recognition yes i understand 100 what i think that one of the things that the kids and i've been talking about is how

we haven't I'm sure that it's out there but we haven't felt a lot of music right now that really feels timely it feels like of the moment and this album really deeply does to me and what do you what does the song human what are you trying to tell people with that song well the reason I sent you that song when I first wrote it is you know because I I feel like I know you so well. And I think you know and everybody's always known that you have this kind of canary in the coal mine thing about you where it's like you feel the weight of the world and the pain of the world and really sort of like unquantifiable ways that I think could be insurmountable at times. And I was just feeling that way too that night. And I started thinking about, and this was before the fires too, just, only just, I started thinking about like the destructiveness of fires and how relevant and prevalent they are, you know, and there's nothing good about them.

It's just like there's no silver lining, if you will. but in the Pacific Northwest when the fire wildfire smoke comes north we get these wildfire suns and they're just like big beautiful bright red bulbs of apocalypse and they're so beautiful and you can look right at them for once and there's just something about that that is I guess the only byproduct of something so destructive that you can just sink your teeth in and go, okay, there's one good thing. And it's like, I feel like while we're fighting, while we're working, while we're problem solving, while we're living through a profoundly difficult time in human history, we have to remember that we're here for such a split second, just like

the blink of an eye, that whatever tiny thing makes us happy and feel good and remind us how innocent we molecularly are like at our core we have to do that thing and we have got to find a way to be human and soft and and filled with joy in whatever environment we're in yeah and that's why I sent you that song because it was the night before the election and I just felt you you could feel from yeah way across the country I kind of could you know and the rest of responsibility that you feel for other people and that you take for other people. You get on the phone and you, a woman overseas with somebody for an hour until they're empty and their light. You know, you do that. I told the story about the forest fire sun. Yeah, the wildfire sun. Well, the first thing

you said was, have you ever seen a forest fire? I'm like, Randy, is it a screensaver you can send me? Obviously, I haven't seen it. So I sent you a wildfire son. Yeah, then you sent me the son. But I told that story from stage on tour a lot. And I realized halfway through, I was telling it like, so Brandy was saying, yes, all this, this is a bad paraphrase, but yes, all this horror is happening. But have you ever seen a sun in a forest fire?

Yeah. And then I realized halfway through that I need to change it because that's not what you were saying and that's not what that moment is. It's not a butt. It's like that thing doesn't happen. It's not like look over here or look over there. It's like, no, no, no, that sun doesn't happen without the fire. Yeah. Like both together. Yeah. It's not even. It's like look over here and look over there. Yeah. Yeah. Because you're not, what you weren't saying wasn't spiritual bypassing. It wasn't, I know it's sad, but there's other happy things you can look at instead. No. It's a way of looking at it that's like there's actually some shit that wouldn't even be so beautiful if it weren't on fire.

Yeah. Oh, thank you for recognizing that. I'm always worried that like people think I'm polyanning or something, looking for like a silver lining and I'm really not. I'm just saying we have to feel all the things within the moment. We have to meet the moment in every way. But it can't eclipse like our very short lives. That's right.

And now it's time for our ads. So I've decided that sleep is basically the foundation everything else in my life is built on. And yet it's the thing I think I ignored for years. I mean, we spend a third of our lives asleep. But if that sleep isn't good, it shows up everywhere. Your patience is shorter, your brain's foggier, even your relationships feel. it. When it comes to actually optimizing sleep, your pillow matters. And I had no idea actually how much until I switched to my coop sleep goods adjustable pillow. The thing is genius. You can add or

remove fill to create the perfect height and firmness for you and how you sleep. Side sleeper, back sleeper, stomach sleeper, doesn't matter. The pillow adapts to you, not the other way around. And I took their better sleep quiz and got two king-sized pillows, then started pulling out fill until my neck and spine felt perfectly aligned. I could feel the difference the very first night. No more neck pain, no more tossing around, trying to get comfortable. Plus, they give you a hundred night free trial to make sure it's right for you. And 86% of Coup sleepers report sleeping better after switching. That's a lot.

upgrade your sleep, visit coop sleepgoods.com slash hard things to get 20% off your first order. That's C-O-O-P sleepgoods.com slash hard things. From the latest wellness trends to the chaos of modern culture, we're always questioning what's real and what's just noise. But one thing is certain. Your body wasn't designed for all the stress. Blue light, processed foods, and environmental threats of today's world. That's why I've been using Armagh's Colostrum, nature's original superfood. It's packed with over 400 bioactive nutrients that work at the cellular level to fortify

gut health, strengthen immune health, fuel performance, and more. Since I started taking it, I've noticed I feel more resilient and my energy is steadier, my recovery is faster, and my gut just basically feels. feels better. This isn't a supplement. It's a bioactive whole food that helps your body do what it was built to do, packed with nutrients that promote your cell's natural renewal process to support skin, hair, gut health, metabolism, immune health, lean muscle, and whole body vitality. In a world that's constantly changing, your health shouldn't be up for debate. We've worked out a special offer for our audience. Receive 30% off your

first subscription order, go to armor.com slash hard things or enter hard things to get 30% off your first subscription order. That's A-R-M-R-A dot com slash hard things. Today's episode is brought to you by Alma. And listeners, we know that our mental health is everything. We talk about it. You talk about it with us. And we are all simply doing the best we can at it. But what has been absolutely crucial for me in my mental health journey is doing the work with a trusted therapist. It should be easy and it should be accessible to find a therapist, but unfortunately, it is not. In fact, finding the therapist can sometimes be the obstacle you face once you have decided that therapy is right for you. And that's where Alma comes in.

Alma, spelled ALMA, makes it simple to find a licensed in-network therapist who really gets you. You can browse their directory, no account needed, and filter by what matters to you, gender, specialty, therapy style, race, and more. And this isn't just about convenience. It's about real connection. Ninety-seven percent of people who found a therapist through Alma said they felt seen and heard, because when you're struggling, a real person can make all the difference. Plus, Alma helps you find therapists who accept your insurance so care can actually be affordable. On average, people save 80% on the cost of therapy when using insurance, helping to reduce the financial stress and strain so you can focus on what matters. Better with people, better with

Alma. Visit helloalma.com slash we can to schedule a free consultation today. That's hello a L-M-A-com slash W-E-C-A-N. Okay, can you tell us a little bit about the long goodbye? The long goodbye? well it's like a memoir in three and a half minutes isn't it sure is it'll get you it'll get you did it get you well it got me which which bit got you the most well first of all it got me from before i listened to it tish just told me the concept and it ruined my life just the knowing the concept of the song which can you describe what can you describe in your own words what the concept of the long advice.

It's really similar to, well, it ends with the same sentiment that human sort of begins with, which is just that like, you know, I've had this life where the first half of it was really chaotic and really formative. and that for some reason it's awarded me some perspective in the second half of my life and more peace. I think everybody thinks of their childhood is like the peaceful time.

You know, don't grow up too fast. You know, don't squander your youth. I'm like, give me every line. You know, let my hair get thin, let it all happen because actually this is the sweet spot, you know, and recognizing that, right now is me like dragging my feet on the ground to slow the second half down. That's the bit I want to slow down.

And so I'm okay, you know, having lost those years or let those years sort of be behind me. And I'm writing about that journey and I'm writing about the chaotic, dangerous middle bit where anyone can die. where you can lose yourself to the hormonal takeover of your brain or whatever or substance and, you know, all of the danger that we kind of like feed off of in that elbow of life. And then I'm writing about my, like the love of my life and my family and how like I'm so jealous for those years. Like I want all that time back, you know, to be with Kath. but I would have screwed it up we would have screwed it up we would have fought over something small and wouldn't know each other you know so I'm just saying like don't speed up the second

half alive don't pine for your for your youth you know don't worry about growing up too fast worry about being worried about growing old like there's nothing to worry about. The only thing we have to worry about is worry itself. Yeah, exactly. I just think that like one of the most profound things that I've ever seen, and this actually occurred to me when I was writing a long goodbye in the end when I say, let it go, keep it light, let it snow, let the wind blow all night. It's only life after all. It's a blink of an eye. It's a long goodbye. Is Meg and Andrea. it's that moment in the dock when the you know the old filters on the phone that's just everybody needs to see that everyone needs to see that who who is thinking about aging as a problem yeah

all andrew want to do is get old yeah yeah yeah how lucky are we if we can take that from Andrea and just change the way we think right now. Yeah. Like, I just want to get old. Yeah. Thanks to Andrea. That's such a gift. It's so huge.

And Andrea left behind so many gifts, but, like, that's, I think that's my favorite one. Yeah. I just want to get old and then talking to Andrea about bodies when Meg was talking to Andrew about bodies and body size and body shape and how it looks and image. And Andrea said, I don't care what my body looks like. I just want to have a body. yep same that hit yeah that really hit that is like i want that moment in that documentary for everyone like i wish i wish those two sentiments specifically like on everyone yeah what is what is your

favorite song on the album and also i want to know what anniversary is how do you how do you what was the origin of anniversary and what is it about to you? I love, like, nobody sits down with the songwriter. It's like, what is anniversary about? It's like, it's so, it's such a friend conversation. No, it's just, it's, we're having such a friend conversation. I love it so much. My favorite song on the album is impossible for me to choose.

Okay. It is impossible for me to choose. Every one of those songs to me is like, it cuts like a, knife like they are so important to me those songs and that's new i am 44 katherine just reminded me i'm not 45 i'm 44 i've never felt about songs the way i feel about these 10 songs um like i won't take any shit about him either like i won't take any criticism good for you not taking it i don't i'm not going to read any reviews i don't want to know um so i don't i don't have one okay I could tell you why I love each one.

But, yeah, I don't have a favorite because some of them I'm uncomfortable with, you know. Anniversary is one of those ones that makes my skin crawl. Why? That I wrote it. And I had done, like, singing it, and I felt like so self-conscious and uneasy with it as a concept. It was really the inside part out. And I just didn't really know that I wanted to do that. And in fact, right up until, as a writer, I think you can probably relate to this,

right up until the final day of turning in the master, I told myself, I don't have to put it on there. Yeah. I don't have to. I can take it off and do a cover, or I can just be a nine songs. There's nine song albums. Right up until the moment that I said approved on the master, I had to like make myself calm down by like telling myself I wouldn't,

didn't have to put that song on there. It's so weird. What is it about it? It's just, I don't know. I don't like how stream of consciousness it is. You just really don't want you to see that far in to my thinking. That's so interesting. It's so wonderful to see that far into your thinking.

It's so good. I'm not saying it's a good experience for you, but it's a good experience for us. Wow. Okay. So when I was listening to the album, I kept thinking what I wrote down all over my whiteboard, like a beautiful mind situation by the time Abby had woken up, is I was thinking about this thing that happened that I've told the Pots Squad many times when Tish was like seven or something. I woke up in the middle of the night and she'd run into my room.

She used to do that in the middle of the night and like stand above me very creepily until I woke up. It was very strange. Yeah. And so she was doing that thing and she had this like terrified look at. her face when I open my eyes. And I said, what's wrong? And she said, I woke up and I'm all alone in there. And it was dark and I'm all alone in there. And I said, that's fucking sleeping. That's what sleeping is. So go back. And she said, no, mom, I'm all alone in here. Like, I'm all alone in here and you can't get in. And I can't get out. And it was like her first existential crisis.

like she had returned to herself enough to notice that what's inside of us is like this separation from each other and that was terrifying for her and I felt like as I was listening to every song that every song is sort of about that's like can we be known are we all alone in here like a woman overseas is about cath but it's not really it's about you whether you know her or not And like Joni is like about do you know her or not? Are you separate? Or Eva is like the separation or nobody knows us. It's like over and over again like are we all alone in here? Do I know you? Do you know me? Do we ever really know each other? Yeah. Like when you return to yourself, it's like you remember I'm all alone in here. Like I'm just like a little cup of the ocean. Yeah. And I'm stuck.

There's like a line in there about like too much truth and if I'm. It's something about being in jail if I return to myself. Couldn't I find myself in jail? Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's like the jail of separation. Am I making this up? No, you're not making it up.

It's true. It's all really true. It's so interesting. So when I'm listening to the long goodbye and it makes you want to, my love, every ache in me is just like, I'm thinking, okay, the way I can handle this being true, which is that life is a long goodbye. Relationships are a long goodbye. Like we make, we get together and then we're like, I guess we'll do this life thing, which is we'll walk each other to the end.

We'll walk each other home, as Ram Dass used to say. Then I have to believe that the reason that ache is inside of us is because being that separate is actually not the ultimate truth. Yeah. Right? Yeah, it's not. The long goodbye ends with like the first real hello. which is no more cup all ocean like all back together yeah and that's why i think that's that's no more cup all ocean all back together yes that's what i believe and you just do the all ocean now well no i'm not

i'm evolving you know i withdraw you know sometimes my cup is tequila sometimes i'm You know, I'm cheeky and carnal and self-serving in ways that I don't mind, but that is the ultimate truth for me. And I like, I know that. But I do feel like we live in a time in an age where the pursuit of the self is seen as a virtue. And like the evolution that's like, you know, closest to enlightenment is this Mward. journey. And I, the parts of that that I know are true bother me. But the parts of it that I know are not true bother me more. Tell me more because that's it. It's like, yes, you can find God and truth and self. And yes, you can find God and truth in others. Yeah. But it can't be either

or, right? Yeah. So what part, I mean, there's a line that's like the great, I don't want to bow to the great and mighty me that is that what you're saying that the emphasis the cultural emphasis on individual on self that there's something missing there yeah it doesn't feel true well is it evolving turning inward it's an easy way to be only kneeling at the altar of the great and mighty me it's like that that in some ways the journey into self it just ends with you know it ends in there it's a dead end road you know at least if we're going to do it and we probably should do it we can remove the blockage at the end of the road so that it's circular it comes back out into the world again you know and actually I think that's what the

philosophy you know is getting at but it's just that I feel like there are too many voices there's too much noise there's too much wellness there's too many um there's too much much influence to just serve the self. If it bothers, you cut it off. If you don't understand it, stop having the conversation. You know, it's like, and that is seen as growth and evolution in like the day and age that we're living in. And I'm like, no, if you don't understand, keep asking the question, you know, not to the

point where we're getting into territory of like self-harm, you know, by like maybe going back to a toxic person or going back to a toxic place and trying to re-engage and trying to re-engage. That's different. That's where we are veering into something that's hurting us. But I do believe that the pull toward others, toward the saccharacterious, you know, sacrificing of the self, of the identity, it frees us. It frees us from our ego because self and identity are like the problem. That's the cup, you know? Yeah. It's like what self? What are you

talking about? Are you talking about ego? Are you talking about personality? Or you're talking about like the soul, the part that is connected to everyone else? The whole I and the father are one self, which is a different self. Yeah. Yeah. I am this. I am this. I am this. And I'm like, I am yours, I am yours. shit okay okay you know how you tell that story about how when you were little

or it might have been last year I don't know but when you hear the sound of gravel car wheels on a gravel road that you get excited car wheels on a gravel road my favorite song in the all time And tell us why, tell us the gravel, because I want to tell you what gravel means to me after you tell yours.

Oh, okay. Well, I want to know. I just, I've always had a dirt road. I've always lived on a dirt road. I still live on a dirt road that I could probably afford to pave. But I don't, I love the sound of car wheels on a gravel road because they just, somebody's coming. Somebody's coming. And like, what's it going to be?

Where are we going to go? What are we going to do? What are you going to say? Are we going to like eat together? Are we going to fight or are we going to like watch a movie or are you just going to sit quietly and read your book? But we're going to be together. Somebody's coming to be with me. You know, so the news about to happen.

That's a carwheels on a gravel road to me. So I grew up in a house with a long gravel road. Okay. Forever long gravel road. And the sound of gravel of car wheels on a gravel road to me makes me clench and makes me like. So for me, when I heard car wheels on a gravel road, it meant I got a, I can't be myself anymore. Like I automatically had a feeling of, I have to get up, I have to do something. I used to like be relaxing and then I'd get up and try to look busy.

Like in my family, it was like you, you don't lay around. Like I was raised by a football coach. It was just like, no pain, no gain. You didn't lay. Nobody laid, okay? But whenever you, I hear you say. tell that. I'm like, oh my God. You say, somebody's here. And I think somebody's here. Wow. Like my performance self has to come out. It's just so interesting to me that you can have two

such different responses to your most comfortable place, I guess. Mine would be alone. And yours is like, what's going to happen? And I'm like, what's going to happen? Okay, but when, okay, so let me go. I want to, I actually want to get into this. So when you would hear the car wheels on a gravel road, were there ever times where you were like, oh, God, okay, look busy, brush my hair, put on clothes, wake up and be that glennon, you know, like snap out of the aloneness, that space that you go into when you read and when you're like, you know, using your amazing fucking mind. Like, was there ever a time that that company surprised you, though?

And you were like, I didn't want this and I'm so glad they're here. I'm so glad to be with this person now. Was there ever a time when you were surprised by how you felt when that face ended up at your door? Only when I have been in recent learning how to not perform. Okay. And I think that Abby and I have now found like a little rag tag group of people that when I hear the equivalent of their tires, I feel like I can just continue. Okay.

That I don't have to change. Yeah. Yeah. And that feels like maybe the most amazing thing that's ever happened to me somehow is finding people that, like when you say I have people I can be alone with, what I hear is, oh, I get that now. Like I have people that I can still not change for. Yeah.

Or not perform for. Yeah. And I guess that's real friendship, a real community. So now I think I get it. But I just think of what you have taught me and you and Kath have taught me about finding love and community and space with others and in an outward way. Yeah. That has truly changed the way that Abby and I do things. Yeah.

And I just always think about the gravel as the difference. like you're learning to be comfortable with stuck in a barn and I'm learning to be comfortable with people are coming and I'm not stuck in a barn get me to a barn's dad well I mean I we've stayed at each other's houses before you know like we've spent at nights with each other like in succession you've been to my house state I've been to your house and state and so we've had like pajama hangs and stuff like that you know and watch TV and so like we have found ways to like drop down with each other like our two families. But I'm always conscientious about the temptation, even that I feel, about wanting to extract

the glenanness from your mind. Like when I'm with you, it's like in that mind are some of the most powerful and interesting sentiments, like this perspective that's going to be expansive. It's like I could, talking to you is like binging my favorite show. And so I have to like fight the temptation to not. switch you on and pull from from you you know and it makes me wish that like because sometimes i do it makes me wish there was like a thing where it was like what glennon likes for fun is a b and c because then i could do that for you that makes two of us you back you know what i mean like if i could

take you fishing then i wouldn't feel so bad about like calling you to talk through my family member who's an alcoholic and that I need to have a refresher and how to deal with that. I wouldn't feel so bad about calling you to like work through a problem, you know, because I would be able to take you fishing or like play monopoly with you or whatever it is that's like Glennon does this for fun. But what you do for fun is like, what is it? It's a good question. And you did say to me the other day, which I have been thinking about nonstop, it possibly

you didn't say it this way. You can never say it this way. But it was something like, maybe you're so upset because you're not obsessed with, you're not obsessed enough with anything else. I said maybe you're not obsessive enough. Which, by the way, I can't stop thinking about. Really? You have this album.

Yeah. Like you're surviving this time. This is what cops does do, yeah. Because you are making this album, which I'm looking at in thinking, that's so fucking weird, because this album is everything everyone needs to hear right now. And it will be so healing. And I know that. I'm not like it will be.

It's going to hit everybody what they need to hear in this moment. And you were obsessing and making it during this time. And there's just something so beautiful about that. I told Abby about that. I'm like, oh, I just need to start writing again maybe. Well, you're doing it too. It's like my tools are so simple. Like, I know what my tools are.

And you're right. like I feel like I'm helping I'm helping I'm using my tools and I'm doing my gift and I'm helping because like my gift is like I'm an unhardener of hearts I'm a this and that and like I know what my purposes and I've got my tools in my right hand and my left hand and so I'm going to work and yeah there's something really single minded and focused about that but you're doing that too all the time and so is Abby you know your mind expanders Unhardener of hearts, that's so good. What do you want, that we haven't talked about, do you want people to know about this album or you right now or anything? I mean, this is why, you know, I wanted to come here. This is why I wanted to talk to you. It's like we could talk about credits and who played on it and who produced it.

And we could talk about technical stuff and recording studios and vintage guitars all day, you know, and I'm going to do that for the rest of my day. but this is where you know we come to to talk about this about this angle on the album and so I'm really only interested in talking about what you're interested in do you think that this whole returning to yourself is something that you're going to continue are you just going to be like that's good onward that was a nice experiment that one and yeah that one this will be the only album probably like it like when i feel yeah yeah i mean i've never i've never been an observational songwriter i am self-revealing in my in my songs but there's only ever like two or three or four of them on an

album you know because i'm in a family band and and it's um that's a really beautiful way to be and i love being that way but this is that one time where it just isn't like that and uh and i don't yeah i don't think that this continues. Okay, so you guys, what Brandy is saying is that you need to fucking pay close attention to this album. Right? It's not, we will not pass this way again. Yeah, this is the last time I'm getting in that barn.

Yeah. Next time I'm in that barn, I'm going to have a fishing pole, I'm going to have a Zelda game, I'm going to have at least four other people. I love you. I love you guys so much. Thank you. It's a gift to reveal as much as you did. I just have one last question.

Was it tricky? Like, was it uncomfortable at all to write as honestly as you did? Like, I'm thinking in particular about you and Kath. Yeah. Well, Catherine, that's a really good question because, first of all, you have so much in common with Kath. I know you're going to totally understand this, but Catherine is such a writer. Yes, she is. And she's such an artist that I sent her two of these songs, the ones that are right on the edge of okay.

And I said, we'll probably have to talk about these, you know. But she just wrote back, these are two of your best songs. We don't have to talk about it. Oh, my God. She just really respects you as an artist. Yeah, and I really respect her as an artist. And when I listen back to those songs now, I hear how enamored I am with Kath. It's just, it's about being enamored.

It might come off in another way, but it is what it is. It doesn't come on. I said what I said. It's a real, also, it's a real gift to the lesbian community because we're just always having to act perfect. Yeah. Like we have the most perfect fucking non-human marriages ever so that we don't let down our tokenism as proof it can work or whatever. hell that thing is. Yeah. So, God, it just felt it is permission to be just a smidge human. Yeah. In relationship, too. It's a gift. Yeah, I think so too. I hope that, I can't control how people take it,

but I hope they take it that way. And they know that there is a glimpse into the, I don't like the word normal, but into the like relatability of like all relationships, so that all relationships can be valued equally. Yeah. I also think you know you did it if the person, even if you're telling the truth about them, but the person seems even cooler after the song's over. Like Kathy seems even cooler after that song's over. It's like a witchy energy of like, which is what she is.

But that's how I felt. I was like, God, she's so cool. She is cool, man. Yeah. She's as cool as they get. She's too cool. she's over there saying oh god stop is your mic muted because it's red no they would have told me that okay all right we're done you guys are free to go you are free to return to yourselves

i know it's a lonely thing but it's the only thing we love it's the only thing to do bye we can do hard things is an independent production podcast brought to you by media. Treat media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at we can do hard things on Instagram and at we can do hard things show on TikTok.