We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Brandi Carlile: Live From My Couch!

Episode Date: March 8, 2022

1. The two disagreements between Brandi and Glennon that started, and cemented, their friendship. 2. Brandi’s lifelong quest to continuously “calibrate” herself so that her outsides are in tune with her insides. 3. The trait Brandi loves most about Catherine—and the sticky note on Glennon’s desk with the same message.  About Brandi: Brandi Carlile is a six-time GRAMMY Award-winning singer, songwriter, performer, producer, #1 New York Times Bestselling author and activist, who is known as one of music's most respected voices. Her new album, In These Silent Days, recently debuted at #1 on Billboard’s Americana/Folk Albums chart, Top Rock Albums chart and Tastemaker Albums chart and continues to receive overwhelming acclaim. The New York Times praises, “Larger than life and achingly human…she empathizes, apologizes and lays out accusations. She’s righteous and she’s self-doubting. She proffers fond lullabies and she unleashes full-throated screams," while NPR Music declares, “absolutely breathtaking, across the whole album Brandi Carlile pulls out all the stops. It’s just extraordinary…she’s just claiming rock god status." Carlile recently received five nominations at the 64th Annual Grammy Awards including Record of the Year, Song of the Year and Best Pop Vocal Performance for the album's lead single, "Right On Time." Following a breakthrough debut on "Saturday Night Live," Carlile and her band will embark on a series of landmark concerts including stops at Washington’s Gorge Amphitheatre, Los Angeles’ The Greek Theatre and New York’s Madison Square Garden among many others. In addition to her 6 GRAMMY Awards, Carlile has been recognized with Billboard’s Women In Music “Trailblazer Award,” CMT’s Next Women of Country “Impact Award" and received multiple recognitions from the Americana Music Association Honors & Awards including Artist of the Year for the past two years. TW: @brandicarlile IG: @brandicarlile To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it. Download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. Stopped asking directions. Some places they've never been. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things, and I'm not gonna waste your time by talking too much

because we have a really exciting thing going on today. Brandi Carlisle. I know. Is a six-time Grammy award-winning singer-songwriter, performer-producer, number one, New York Times best-selling author. Remember that day? I do, you were the first person I called.

Oh, an activist who is known as one of music's most respected voices about her new album, which debuted at number one on Billboard's Americana Folk Albums Chart and is played on loop in our home seriously. The New York Times said, larger than life and achingly human, she empathizes, apologizes, and lays out accusations. She's righteous and she's self-doubting. It makes me emotional, actually. An NPR music said, absolutely breathtaking, across the whole album Brandy Carlyle pulls out all the stops.

It's just extraordinary. She's just claiming rock god status. Brandy lives in Seattle with her wife Catherine, who is in this room, and their children, Evangeline and Elijah. But right now, the rock god herself is sitting across from me in my living room. Hi, friend. Hi. Why are you all in LA? I didn't even ask you. I mean, we came to do some Tanya music and a lot of us just to see you I wanted to be here with you when we do this Well, I was just thinking that you should have been here yesterday Brandy because we had the most lesbian day ever

Abby made me go to a place That is called called REI. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. Well, we were there for two hours. And people kept coming up to me in these green vests and saying, can I help you? And I kept saying, I like your nature costume,

but I don't think so. And I kept following Abbey around because she was in heaven. And there were so many carabiners. Yeah. So many. And in every aisle, it just feels like a bear could pop out. Yeah. Any, do you like, are I? I do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, the people that work there find me too. They see the gay and you they see it. It's like Namaste like the gay and me sees the gay and you Maybe that was my problem. Maybe they couldn't see the gay and me and because people do tend to not see the gay and me And then they thought I was in the wrong place

No, they have been it they just saw I see it they come up to me too. I mean everybody sees the gay and me Okay They just saw, I see it, they come up to me too. I mean, everybody sees the gay and me. Okay. They do. They do. Namaste. Okay. So the name of this podcast is we can do hard things. I know. It feels as if your last year, just as your friend

and then admirer of your work and then admirer of your entire family. It feels so shiny and wonderful and beautiful and it all is. What's hard for you right now? Well, I think it's hard for me to not know how to come back into being who I was before the whole world stopped. And I think maybe that I could get more comfortable with that being okay, that'd be good, because maybe there was some of that stuff that maybe could be left behind. Yeah. It feels like so much of what you're doing right now is about what we're leaving behind

and what we're taking with us. So broken horses, when I was thinking about what I wanted to talk to you about today, a lot of it's about love. Family love, art love, divine love, all of it. But what I think is interesting about the two of us is that two of our first big conversations that really started our friendship were kind of disagreements. Okay. Yeah. So one was about queerness and we'll get to that in a minute. But the first one, well, we were talking a lot during broken horses during when you were writing the book. And my genius idea for you was that you should not name the book broken horses. The book that that then went absolutely crazy and people say is the best title on her.

I told you that was not a good title. Yeah, but you know, disclaimer, you're the person that went absolutely crazy and people say is the best title winner. I told you that was not a good title. Yeah, but you know, disclaimer, you're the person that wrote untamed. So I can see why instinctually that would not be the title. Yes, and I think it's because, and I want to get into this because I think it's because when I read the title Broken Horses, I thought that Broken H broken horses meant a tame

horse because I'm not a horse person clearly you know the REI story I like I don't know a lot about outside but a horse that has been broken is a tame horse right so I thought that you were saying that you were broken and that that was beautiful But that's not exactly explained to me what broken horses means and meant to you. Well, broken horses means, you know, I saw it the way my five-year-old at the time saw it, you know, which was, that's why I named it that is that she pointed out because she'd been asking for a horse or a pony, you know, since she could speak, and I kept

telling her how expensive they were. And she was overhearing me and Catherine tried to assess the title for the book. And, um, you know, we took where I was talking about being poor about like, you know, growing up in poverty. And she was like, hey, wait a minute, you had horses though. And if you were poor, how did you get a horse? And I was like, well, actually, I just I always had broken ones, you know, broken knees and broken pasts and things like that. And broken lineage. And she said, well, you call your book broken horses. And so I was just like, oh, yeah, these entities that came into my life were so substantial. It literally would not have taken the path that it took without a minute.

And they were just the most unbroken thing in the world, but they were only accessible to me because of their brokenness. And I saw the arc of like my artistry in that metaphor too. And when I explained it to you, you had a response that actually made me rethink it, but it isn't something you should say or responsibly. It isn't something you should say without thinking about it, because you didn't want any of my fans of the people that like my music to feel like they were told they were being broken. Yeah. Yeah. Or that there was anything honorable about that. But the amazing thing, the more I think about it over and over again,

your title and what you are saying about that, is that, I mean, you said, I mean, broken in some obvious way, an apparent flaw that would suggest that the animal can no longer serve his man-made human-serving purpose. Work. And when I think about that, I think about, it reminds me of my mental illness. This thing that I knew about myself really young, that made me unable to be purposeful to the system. Yeah. To serve the status quo.ful to the system. Yeah, to serve the status quo. To serve the system.

So it was like, at some point I was unusable. Yeah. And the more I understood that I was unusable, the more I was able to be creative. Yeah. Right? Yeah. It's like, and undoubtedly you've shaped people

and changed and altered the course of people's lives from that perspective. It's so interesting because there's this scene, this part in Genio Del's book, How to Do Nothing, which you have to read, it's so beautiful. Okay. But it's about this tree. And there's this tree. It's like the single standing tree in this park in California somewhere. And the reason it's still standing is because when they came to cut down all the trees to use them for lumber, this tree was so twisty and weird and weak looking. Yeah. If they didn't take a tear like a it was unuseful.

Yeah. For capitalism. So they left it and its unusefulness is why it was allowed to live. So sometimes it's our weirdness that makes us ultimately the most beautiful as we were unusable. Yeah, we should be so lucky. Yeah. Everybody just needs to be as unusable as possible.

Yeah, I'm not a bit that you just read. I wrote that after you told me not to name the book Broken Horses. I knew I had to go take a stock in, you know, in, in, in the why I wanted to call it that and basically realized I needed to explain it, not just everyone else but to myself, you know. So you, you were such an important part of me being brave enough to put that book out. And I remember I called you and I was like, I think I hate, I think I hate my book titles. Like the second time I'd ever spoken to you. And you're like, this is a pre vulnerability freak out.

You're fine. And I was like, yeah, but it's called heroes and songs. And you're like, yeah, no, that's not your book title. That's not your book title. Actually, this is not a vulnerability test. That's just a sucky ass title. Yeah, that's too bad. Remember when they were trying certain, there were people who were trying to get you to

like fancy up your talk in the book. Yeah. Do you remember that? Yes. Do I need to talk for you? They were like an Instagram caption. Yeah, that was so interesting. And you were like, do I need to make it fancier?

Like, do I need to make this seem more right early or something? And I was like, they're gonna, all of us are gonna cry if you change your voice for this book. And then, okay, this is my favorite, and you're gonna have to help me remember some of this because I've been trying so hard to remember this week. One time, we had never spoken before.

And I had gotten on Instagram and done a thing about how I did not relate to born this way. Yeah. Born this way narrative. I know. Yeah. How I felt like, with all due respect to everyone who does feel a connection with, yes, I was born this way. That's not how my experience has been.

I have experienced sexuality, be more fluid and more of an energy that can go in many different ways. And you called me on the phone. And you were like, Hi, this is Brandy Carlow. Can we talk? Do you remember that day? I think that's how it had shown you. That should have been a podcast in andknown show. Very well, yeah.

That should have been a podcast in and of itself. That was an incredible conversation. Why did you call me? Well, okay. My wife had just read Love Warrior and Untamed. And she was talking about you all the time. And so we started following you on Instagram. And we were discussing you and Abby, like a lot, before we knew you. Some things are just that way, soulmates and stuff, you know?

And I remember her, she put the kids to bed without me and she was coming down the stairs and I had just read the post and I'm like, there's something really unsettling for me about this Glenn and Doyle Gowls recent Instagram post. It bothers me. I think it might be irresponsible or something. And Catherine's like, well, you have no idea how cool she is. Like she wants to talk through all this kind of stuff. And she's really brave and she is not afraid to take risks

and say things and then learn in retrospect about what it is that she thinks or feels or whatever. And which is a skill I really wish I had more of a hand-lawn. And she said, you should call her. She'll totally want to talk to you about it. And then I was like, I needed to get open to your perspective too. And so I just spent a couple days thinking about it, and then we got in touch and had a really, really transformative for me. Me too. Conversation. And then I knew we were going to be doing that probably for the rest of our lives. Yeah. Yeah. Same. It was so beautiful because basically I remember

you saying to me, whoa, whoa, whoa, we, let's talk about just, you know, not claiming the born this way. The idea, right? The idea being that it is dangerous to kind of part from that for real it's dangerous because there are people all over the country and world who are only avoiding conversion therapy because their very religious parents can hang on to this born this way narrative. Yeah, it's one of the reasons exactly. One of the reasons. Some people still really need born this way. Right. And to some people it's just applicable. And so it's like of the reasons, exactly. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons.

One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons.

One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons.

One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. One of the reasons. platformed. I, you know, I remember, I think if I had seen that as a little girl, I would be like, Oh, God, I hope my mom doesn't see this. That's so interesting. Yeah. And the same part of you, I hope my mom doesn't see this. Oh, God, that's so good. Yeah. And the same, that exact thing is why it pisses me off so much.

I know. It's because I have spent so much of my life bowing down to ridiculous religious bigotry that it pisses me off to have to like censor myself or succumb to any narrative that is only in place or largely in place because it narrative that is only in place or largely in place because it capitulates to that religious bigotry, right? Yeah, for me for somebody who relates to it completely. It's perfect for someone who doesn't Yeah, it has to say they do. Yeah, it's like I guess it just feels like I am having to change who I am to make the religious people accept me.

But I don't give a shit whether they do or not. Love that about you. Right? I just, I don't know. But the point is it was a beautiful conversation and you helped me, I remember you saying something like, I know that you feel like, you know, you see the pride flags and old Navy has pride flags and everyone sounds like, I know that you feel like, you know, you see the pride flags and old Navy

has pride flags and everyone celebrating all the clear people. And you think that everyone's accepted the clear people, right? They've only accepted like 10 of us. Yeah. And two of them are on this call. Yeah. Exactly. It's not, it's not important to remember. It's not so important to keep in the back for our minds. And I like stand on that stage every night and I look out at all of the people that are accepted and rejected for whatever reasons. And it's just palpable and it's just not complete. And not only is it not complete,

it's not even entirely safe yet. Mm-hmm. You know? I know. And so there's just so much more work to do. Simultaneous disseleration, which is what I love about the queers. We've always celebrated through oppression, always. And I mean, I think about like labels, you know, getting more and more rejected in the

LGBTQIA plus community. And I, that both scares me and encourages me. It's like, I think I gave you this analogy when we were talking on the phone, but I remember when I was young, and I lived out in the foothills in Maple Valley and Black Diamond and Eamclang, the cow towns of Washington State,

to go into Seattle, I would go to the same place every time, Broadway up on Capitol Hill, and you could go into the stores and all the little knick-knacks and the things they were selling had pink triangles and rainbows, and I wanted all the rainbows and all the pink triangles. And it was the place that I could go to be gay. And it wasn't like I was in the class at anywhere. It's just, I was just always weird everywhere, but there I was not weird at all. And we would do gay pride

there every year. And everything from finding a parking spot to the end of the day was fun, even before I could get into bars and drink. And there was this point where the city council, they met and they wanted to move the parade from Broadway into the city, where all of the big parades, all the straight people parades are.

And I was so mad. I didn't like that forced assimilation thing and I skipped a year. And then I went the year after and I saw these straight people there with their kids. I was like, okay, this is good. What parts of us like assimilate and what parts of us hold on to are labels because, you know, abandoning all identity in terms of, terms like born this way, or the words that we use, or the cultural icons that we put up on pedestals

and they become our defining things. It's like they keep us from becoming disenfranchised from each other. Yeah. You know? Yeah. When we still need to be kind of glowy. Yeah, because there's so many people who are like,

Abby and I were just talking to friends the other day who are like assimilation is not what we want. Like we don't want to be like, like I think it's people who are that tree who like resisted for so long to stay so beautiful. Yeah. And then suddenly like get thrown into the useful category. Yeah. It's like, but that's not what we were doing the whole time. Exactly. It's kind of like, we want people to cross the line and to see who we are and do our world, but we don't want to be asked to cross the line into your world.

Even no matter how beautiful the invitation is, you know, it's interesting. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food.

I was like, girl, why not doing that anymore? You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy?

You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts. Well, and in terms of the labels and all of that, I guess I just feel like, you know, a kid who doesn't want their mom to see a woman saying, actually, porn this way isn't exactly what I identify with. I feel like there was a time in my life where I was like,

I feel open to that, but there was a choice to pursue it. I want and demand equality and justice for myself and all queer people, not just because they were born this way, but if they woke up last Tuesday this way. Yeah, right? It's not because it's inherent, it's because it's like, I know we need that for court cases, right? That's an argument that people use to get us rights. Yes. So it's helpful. Yeah, right. But when you think about it, that's not, why can't we

use a religious space, ironically? Yeah. Right? Like what they get religious exemptions, they weren't born Christian, right? A born Buddhist. Good point. Why can't we just use a different freaking, and let's, let's especially, let's use religion because that's like a karate chop Jedi move. Yeah, right? Yeah. But I just think there's different ways to approach it.

And I guess I just, I don't want any apology in my, No, and I like the way that you look at it. So in like, the irreverent, like, what if it's even better? What if it's a better choice? What if it's better for God's sake? Tana France was saying that the other night at a dinner we were at, he was telling somebody was,

somebody was lamenting their relationship and he's like, darling, yeah, men and women just don't go together. They don't, it's so unnatural. And I have been, I have tried both. I'm just saying I feel so terribly bad for my straight friends and they feel bad for themselves. Yeah. You know, I mean, but when you think about it and they feel bad for themselves, but why do you,

why do we call that unnatural? The most, it is so hard to bridge the gap of like gender conditioning in this country, especially. It's amazing. Like trying to talk to a man is very difficult. I don't know if you've ever tried it. I find it really easy. Oh god. But tell me more about that. I just, I don't know. I think that um well it depends on about what. Okay. I don't I think in a relationship um with one. I don't know. I can't live and

saying this, but I think I would find that quite easy. To talk to relate deeply to me. And do you think it's because but I don't think you'd be able to relate to me. Okay. I have a theory that it's not the men that I don't like talking to. Okay. It's the man character. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. And maybe it's because you're not doing the female character. Okay. Yeah. Okay. All right. And maybe it's because you're not doing the female character. Mm-hmm. That they feel like they don't have to do their charms. It's their charms. It really fundamentally. You just said you explained it. I was like, why is it easy for me that you

just explained it? Yeah, that's why. And because Abby, I mean, the difference between, if there's one man, the difference between the conversation between the way Abby speaks with the man and it's in me, it's night and day. Is it? It's night and day. Is it? It's night and day. Oh my God, I wonder if Katherine feels the same way, but I mean, there's so many assumptions to be made that they don't understand that no one would understand about you, you know, initially. I guess there's some common language.

One of them is like music. Music is, I think in terms of being successful as traditionally such a man thing. You know, and men are really fascinated with all people that play music, so that's always a calming ground. And she has sports. And she's kicked ass in something that she, they feel respect. It's probably the same for both of you. They feel respect because you both have entered a world in which they have historically been dominant and are crushing. Yeah.

Okay, I want to ask you about the new album that Abby and I over and over again listen to in our home. Okay, this album, and I heard you say this, you tell me if it's true. You wrote broken horses. And then you just felt like you had an album pouring up that needed to pour out of you. Is that a piece? Can you tell me about that? Because that actually pissed me off. Because I've never done a huge creative project, finished it.

And then what I really need to do is do another huge creative project. What have you done next? What do you do next? So you close the thing. you send this off to your editor and you're like, OK, I did it. What do you do next? Well, actually, I started a podcast.

So I guess. OK. All right. Right. Exactly. I see what you're saying. It's like, you're still, the wheels are still turning. You don't want to stay on the same track.

But you're like, you can't just put the brakes track, but you're like, it's like yet, you know, you can't just put the brakes on. When it's flowing, it's sort of flowing. I'm like, when I closed that book, after writing the thing about the horses, prompted by you, that's what I love about this podcast. We don't have to sit around pretend like I didn't send you demos and stuff like that, do we?

No, it's so wonderful. I closed the computer and I got straight up and I walked right out to my keyboard, which is 10 steps away, blew the dust off it, fired it up and wrote, throwing good after bad. No. Yeah. All at once in one setting.

I play it for Katherine. I'm like, is this song really weird? And she's like, I don't know, we just hit with it for a few days. And I send it to Emily Sellers and Indigo Girls. Yeah, I love her. And she liked it and I was like, no, actually, I sent it to Emily Sawyer, send it to Gov'Rose. Yeah, I love her. And she liked it and I was like, no, actually I think it's really good.

You might be the direction that I'm headed in. And that just really inspired me. So one of the first songs you sent to us was We're Wolf, The We're Wolf Song. And I just don't know why everyone's not talking. Like I feel like on this album, everyone's talking about all the other songs. I know one's talking about all the other songs. And no one's talking about the Werewolf song enough.

But Abby and I sat and listened to that song. Okay. You can tell me if it's not about this. I'm totally wrong. Okay. Because you know how when you're going through something in your own life, you think everyone's talking about that thing and they might not be. But, okay, well, first of all, I need to read the, you probably know your own lyrics.

It's called Mama Werewolf. Yeah. And there's this part that says, if my good intentions go running wild, if I cause you pain my own sweet child, once you promise me, you'll be the one, my silver bullet in the gun. Okay, so are you saying there that if you do any of the hurtful shit that your family of origin passed down, that you want your kid to be the one to sniff it out of you whatever it takes?

Is that what that's saying? Not to damn it to have. Yes. No, actually exactly that. Okay. I just want to be shown, you know, like, you want to be so vulnerable. It doesn't like it stops the world from being the world, but it doesn't like kill the the carrier of the passenger. Do you know what I mean?

And I don't expect it to be their responsibility, although I'm so innately codependent, I just keep doubling down on that. But that's why I sing the song, because of that that measure of lines and because of that definition that you just gave. It's like absolutely, if you catch me doing what I endured, just show me. So when you sent us that song, it was a week after. You know, Tish, you know, I Tish, of course. Okay. I haven't told this story and I won't, I'm not gonna talk completely. I'll just tell a little bit, but we had been

together with my whole family, abortion. And Tish, in a very dramatic moment, had pulled me out of the room and said, what is happening in our family is not okay. And you're not doing anything about it. And it was, she was totally right. We did what families do, which is we don't talk about it. And we just pretend, we just become different people. But she pointed it out and it was so uncomfortable and it led to this huge family rift. And you know, we're healing.

But it was, it's that, right? Yeah, I guess she did it's that, right? Yeah, I guess she did it. She was the silver bullet in that situation. Yeah. So what are you, what are you trying to, so much of your work in life, I think is like a third way. It's like how you are with religion, it's like how you are with music,

it's how you are with your family. It's like not the first thing, I'm not to be obedient to what the pattern is, the norm. Yeah. I'm not going to throw it away either. Like faith. I'm not going to do it the religious total line way, but I want it in my life. So I'm going to create this third way. Yeah. What are you working on? Let leaving behind from old patterns in your family, your old family, or your old way of life or whatever and bringing to your children now. I think that the thing that is most interesting about the way that I parent and probably sets Catholic on edge the most is that, you know, there are things about

being parented by essentially eternal, non-conformist teenagers that I really like. And that I sort of think are okay. And it's kind of Captain Fantasticie and kind of, you know, fringe. And you know, I'm having to have to confront a culture of how much of that is okay, all the time. And I always will be there's always going to be a part of me that's really erratic, doesn't want to follow the rules, wants us to be different, you know, wants us to be unnaturally close. There are parts of me that are just intense. And those parts, you know, feel okay to pass on for right

now. And I probably won't find out until my kids are older, which parts of that art, okay, and which parts are, you know, or they'll just totally screw you by going the other way. They'll become like Alex P. Keaton's. Like do you remember the show where they were hippies? And then yes. And he had the blazer and he was like the Republican. Yes. If there could be a chance that eventually becomes Republican. And you know, she's, I don't know if this is unrelated, but this is something I'm totally freaked out about is, you know, the girls, they're dad, David, who was my, my first and only ever boyfriend from a time we were like 11 to where it just, I don't even know if it ever it didn't, it just sort of stopped being that way. And you know,

he's always been my person who's a guy. When Katherine, I met as a gift to me, this David character and see what you think. And she was instantly like the same as me. But he's, you know, probably gonna hear this. I'm not gonna say empty, but just very like, you know, he's a long wolf. He doesn't like speak. He doesn't talk about his feelings. He doesn't express himself.

He doesn't come around. He stood me up for his own 30th birthday. There he's, you know, throwing. He forgot our wedding. He's like, you know what I mean? He's never gonna be dead or best friend or any of those things. He's just David. And from the time we were kids, I knew he loved me

and I loved and still loved him. And I could always express myself to him, but all he could ever say to me was, you're the best. You're the best. You're the best. You know, it'd be like, we used to sleep in the same bed totally innocuous. We'd hold hands and just go to sleep in the same bed. You know, like 13 year olds and his mom, which are not the light and he'd go,

you're the best. We go to sleep. It's just something you used to say to me and I always like, can you ever say more than that? Like, what is that at all you got? You're the best. And Evangeline has started saying, you're the best. No.

To me. And it freaks me out because she doesn't know him. And it's and she looks like him. She's got his identical face. And as soon as she says it, talk about werewolf. I'm like, you need to say more than that. I don't even know what that means. You need to explain yourself.

Don't you know people that don't explain themselves in life, don't get what they want? And she's like, you're the worst. The conference says to me. She's like, she's so competitive as you've experienced. You know, I don't get timed. She tells you. She's so competitive that being the best is the greatest compliment she can give. So you're not the second best. You're not the one that loses. You're the best. Yeah, well, I'm just going to say real quick, I've not bitter about this and I want you to know I'm not, but the last time you guys were over here when I played

with Evangeline for four hours. I got hated. Okay. And then Abby showed them her gold medal for 30 seconds and then Evangeline wrote a report on her the next day Was I anywhere in the report? I know. No, it wasn't even in the freaking report Guess because I wasn't the best in anything. Yeah. Oh, yeah, Abby is the best. She's to It was she's the best. But you're competitive. Oh, as soon as I went home, I got down all my Grammy medals. And I was like, but look what Mama has. Oh.

Oh. Okay. How does that work? I need to know how you, how does that work? I need to know how you, how a person is like a bleeding artist, like a vulnerable, weird, queer artist, and then is also super competitive in the world, the world in like institutions and lists in like whatever. How do you I know in your book a lot? You say you're two people. Mm-hmm, but how does that work? Do you drive yourself crazy? I mean You're probably the most intuitive perceptive person. I know I think you probably have a more accurate

You know take on on it. I always say I'm not competitive, I'm driven because I want to win. I just don't want anyone else to lose. I really don't. I would love everybody to just win. I know that's not real life. you know? And also I don't mind being like sideline or or not get I mean I pay attention to those critic lists at the end of the year, the New York Times and you know Rolling Stone and American songwriter and variety like I pay attention to like their top 50 albums or whatever like and my heart, it's like I'll stop at 50, and it'll be like, oh, 50 through 46. And then 46 or in, you click on one

and it shows those, and I'm like, okay, I'm not at the bottom. Then I click on the next one, it shows the next one, okay, well, I'm somewhere near the middle then. And when it gets to that top five, my heart is pounding in my throat, because I'm so afraid I won't be in it, and then I just miss the list all together. That's so vulnerable and nice for you to say. And this year I looked at all the lists and there was there's a woman who sent

me her album before anyone else heard it and I lost my mind over this album. So good, she's called Alice in Russell. And I did that with these lists, but I didn't have the heart in my throat thing because I was so invested in her making the top 10 of all these lists that I was searching for her album cover that I've come to understand exactly how it looks

and I can spot it out of a lineup now. And I was like, I really don't, I am a different kind of competitive person. I really like to see other people win and do well. I don't wanna be rejected, but I don't want anybody else to be either, you know? Yeah, that's really cool. But Catherine, she does want other people to lose.

Oh my God. She will like, she'll be like, oh, did you see the bloody, you know, list, you're number 47 or whatever. And she's like in so and so, is number five. And that's not anything they do. It's like, God, I love that woman.

She gets so jealous. So that's like, I recognize it enough to know I don't feel that way. Like genuinely don't. Like I'm a happy to own it if I did. But don't you think it allows you to be like you because she's like that, probably? Yeah.

If there was nobody cursing other people for winning, you couldn't be this evolved, Zen like human who didn't care. It's because you have a fighter right next to you who will take them all down for you. Oh yeah, that girl I haven't it. All right, what people who are listening to don't know is that they're gonna get a treat

because we're gonna actually do a double date for our next episode with Catherine. So I don't wanna give away too much of that. But before she comes, and we hear directly from her, tell us what do you love about Catherine the most? The thing I love about Catherine the most? The thing I love about Catherine the most is I'm so predisposed to making sort of snap and lasting judgments about people. And I just see everyone as fully accountable for themselves and capable of making better choices.

And I've always been that way. It's not my favorite thing about myself. And I think as I've gotten older because of Catherine, it's gotten better than me. Catherine sees every person as an eight-year-old and not in a condescending way. Somebody that I think is a bad person, she'd be like, oh, he's just a bit naughty.

He's cheeky, he's sparkly, he's all sparkly, darling. You know, like, she sees everyone's kids. She sees everyone's kids. And it's made me realize like we're all just kids running around grown up. That's right. I wonder if it was Catherine who inspired this. I put, I'm going through this thing where I'm trying to make the show.

So I'm dealing with a lot of Hollywood people, which is a whole new world. And awesome in many ways. But now it's awesome because we have the right team. Anyway, I put a little sign next to my next make computer that said, everyone is a little tiny baby. Just for that for that reason. Yeah, because I realized everyone you're talking to, it's like we all have these grown-up suits on, but Catherine's exactly right. We're all just these little terrified babies inside. Yeah.

And our feelings get hurt when other people say stuff and then we say horrible things, or but really it's because we're hurt. Yeah. And so you just have to remember, everyone you're talking to is a little tiny baby. Yeah. And so you just have to remember, everyone you're talking to is a little tiny baby. Yeah, with all this potential and all this ability to be different next year or, you know, life is long, I think instead of short and, you know, all those things are like just have been really good for me, you know, but also just, I think it's magical and her friendships are like, eternal. And she's just, she's sparkly. She's a very sparkly person. Yes, she is. Yeah. And you guys are really similar. March 20th is your birthday.

Oh, you're fours on the Anya Graham. Do you know that Catherine and I are both fours and we both were born on March 20th? And do you know that you and Abby were only born one day apart? She's June 2nd. What? Isn't that weird? I didn't know that. What year? 81. 81. It's weird, right? That is weird.

I know. There is something about birthdays. I mean, I love the enneagram, and it is uncanny how it is weird. I'm going to do a show on that soon. It's very, and I just also love when people tell me who I am, like, just tell me. And then I can like, and then I can just like have all these reasons. Like I keep taking COVID tests and every time it's negative, I guess I'm happy, but then I'm always,

I'm kind of like, oh, so I just like feel this way. I'm just this tired and cranky. Oh, I find you totally intoxicated. Thank you. You're never cranky to me, but if you ever want to be, I accept it. Thank you. And it's fine.

I appreciate it. Because, you know, I've got Catherine to see you as an adult. That's right. And I love that. Yeah. If we ever get in the fight, I'm going to be like, can you talk to Catherine and Hannah?

First, before you just say, I want to condemn you to a life of crankiness for my self-righteous, cranky pedestal. OK. So speaking of love, I recently heard you say, which made my heart just like, okay, you were doing an interview. You've done 7 trillion interviews, especially right after 7 Night Live, which by the way, did you, was that a night live?

I think you posted a picture of yourself sitting on the 7 Night Live stage, like years before saying it was like a dream for you. Was that a dream dream? Just to see it. Yeah. Just to see it. Yeah. Okay.

Then you go on Saturday life with Ted Lasso. Mm-hmm. Like we were talking about, Abby and I were talking about how possibly did they put them together. Like if I were them, I would have broken up the goodness. Like to have both of you be together. I'm sorry. Your bias about, I think, both me and Jason. No, it was so, it was the best episode of Cernet Life ever. And it was so funny too. I mean, it was really good. Funny and gorgeous and your performance was so ridiculous. And just my kids were like, holy shit. Like it was just like transcendent what you did.

It goes back to what we were talking about before with like queerness being totally everywhere now and accepted. But this is not, you have walked a very long road to get to this moment where pride flags are everywhere and old Navy is so big. Right? I mean, talk to us just for a look, just catch up the youngins about what it was actually like for a queer rock star in a industry that was not where we are right now for a long while. Because it looked, it's looking easy right now.

Do you know what I mean? I don't know. Of course, she's a rock star. But you've been working your ass off for so long with this crew of what you call the island of misfits, who's been following you everywhere, who you've been dependent on, and they've been dependent on you. And then it's just yesterday that the world was like, okay, come on. Yeah. Yeah. So tell us about that

and tell us about your crew that follows you and what that's like. Well, I mean, my sort of like gender identity has always been in flux and fluid. It changes, you know, and it might change again. And I make a lot of allowances for myself around that. I like it. I think it's one of the funnest parts of being queer. And so there have been times in my career where I haven't been identifiably queer, but have been out for most of my life since I was a teenager. And there have been all kinds of little

microrejections and surprises and things along the way, but one thing I've noticed recently is that the zeitgeist has sort of finally started to, and I don't mean this as a concession, I don't want anybody to think that we're done here, but that they finally started to embrace and draw journey and the awkwardness of the queer experience as maybe cool. Yeah. And having that part of it be okay, that's a big change for me. Because there is a time when that was just a total

non-starter. I just spent total exclusion from pop culture and worse than exclusion, you know, your fair game to be parodied. It's the funniest thing in the world to make fun of the indigo girls, or Katie Lang. she couldn't be cool, you know? And that's not that way now. Like maybe it's very, very cool to be, you know. What do you think about my brain explodes every time I try to think about gender? I'm losing my mind about gender actually, which is cool for me because that's like when I start to try to figure out things is when it all falls apart and I feel like I know nothing, I am usually on the cusp of something but I don't understand gender. Like I can't find gender inside of me anywhere.

Like I can find gender outside of me. Gender is something that's on me. It's not in me. Yeah. Like if somebody said, if've I said I am a girl. And somebody said to me, how do you know? I would have no fucking idea. I would be like, well, I have on rings. You're blowing around the hairline. I have highlights and I, I have a sport strapless bra on. And I'm in these clothes, but there's nothing inside of me that says, so when you say you've gone,

you leave allowances for gender in the future, you, do you feel in your insides? I'm a woman, or do you feel on your insides? I'm a man, or do you, because I actually feel on my insides that I don't have a gender.

I'm acting out something that I was told when I was little that this is what you are, and I can crush it. Yeah. I can do all the things that make me look like that thing. To me, it feels like calibration. It's like when you're insides, match your outsides, when you make something happen and it lines up and you're like, that's it, that's me right now. That's who I am at this phase of my life,

that's how I feel. And it could be flipping your hair from one side to the other, it could be just, something's missing about me and I don't feel great and it's the mascara. Oh, there it is, there I am. Or you take the mascara off and you're like, there I am. And it's just about like, for me,

it's always been about allowing myself to just calibrate to where I'm like, oh, there it is, there I am. And it's just about like, for me, it's always been about allowing myself to just calibrate to where I'm like, oh, there it is, I'm comfortable. The last time I felt, oh my God, Catherine, I punished this for Catherine for this for days. The last time I felt like uncomfortable in my skin as an adult would have been shooting my video for right on time.

Oh, was it all the glitter instead? I think it was the way the clothes fit me and just felt like I was out of sync with myself. And it was a terrible feeling. It was like two strings on a guitar being out of tune and vibrating incessantly instead of calibrating. And so the whole day, I was like, moody, and I was like snapping at calf and just like not eating any food when everybody else was eating food and sulking off to these trees.

And I felt like a seven year old little girl again, rubbing dirt onto my dress so that I wouldn't have to wear it to the family reunion, you know. Ah, that's Abby, that's how Abby always felt, but that's so interesting. But I felt that way going the other direction too. Really? Yeah.

So you've had times when you dressed completely masculine, and then you felt like that was not you either, you felt uncomfortable? No, and you know, Kafka gonna test to that. Particularly around, you know, I had a renovative couples that need us to fit Catherine and I to fit that paradigm. It makes sense to them.

But which one did you- She's dead, me. The one is the man. Exactly. That's the whole fucking point of this whole fucking thing. So give me an example of when you and calibrated the other way. Oh, well, I like I just said, like when, you know, a really well-maning and lovely, straight couple feels the need to dad meet. Oh, dad you, right?

You know? Oh, God. Oh. Yeah. Or that ease, like in conversation, the one that we talked about earlier, that, you know, Abby and I can both enjoy is just a little too presumptive. Yes. Abby will note that sometimes it's like the man that she's talking to forget, she's actually

a woman and takes off his mask and says, some shit about women. And she's like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Oh, don't forget who you're talking to. Well, you guys spent a lot of time in Florida. Yeah, that's true. That's true. That's true. We did.

Bless Florida. So what I do wonder though, when you say that day that you were shooting that video, how uncomfortable you were, and you felt like out of, how uncomfortable you were, and you felt like out of your skin and you had to soak away and you didn't eat the food. Like that's actually how I felt for like 25 years. Really. I think that there's something about like being

like a really femme woman or presenting that way that makes you feel like you're always in a costume. Yeah. I mean, think about like I had six, six inches on all the time and like tight clothes and like, it just always felt like that. See there have been times I've really liked that and it's just, it's calibrates. If my insides that day match my outsides, I'm okay. I can be okay.

And sometimes it's just that I hate how unpredictable it is. It's just a day in and day out thing. Actually, really, it's more like a year in and year out thing. For I just have a lot of myself to go through a lot of queer phases, just because, you know, I really feel for people that come out later in life. I think there are some things that maybe you might have had easier. For sure. But it's like chicken pox, maybe it's better to get it over with the younger. That's instead of boring this way, we're going with queerness. It's like chicken pox.

Okay, that's our new one. You want to have a chicken pox party. You'll have like a queer person body and just hope that the contagion spreads and So I heard immunity. Yeah, the queerness. Yeah. Okay. Do you think though that what you're talking about with this calibration kind of leads to the spectrum idea? So if you're matching your outsides wherever you feel like you are in the spectrum, then you're good. For me personally.

For you personally. So that's kind of how I feel about sexuality. So it's like born gender doesn't work for born this way for you. Right. You would never have I'm born this way like woman or man. You feel like it's an ever changing energy that you just have to match your outsides to your insides at the moment for me. For you. So that's how for me personally, I feel about sexuality. Cool. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Like, I could never, I was not born gay or straight, I don't think. Yeah. But it's something that I have to keep matching. Right. My insights, my insights. But you're interesting because there is something about you that the compass pointed a different direction the whole time. The compass was, there's a compass in there, right?

I don't know. I think my compass was that I don't think I was doing what you were doing so early. Like you were, well, okay, you know there's this Bell Hooks quote that says, queer. Not Chase and I both sent this to each other at the same time, the day Bell Hook side. Mystical. Queer, not as being about who you're having sex with. That can be a dimension of it, but queer as being about the self that is at odds with everything around it and has to invent and create and find a place to speak and to thrive and to live. Like your faith is queer, your family is queer, your gender is queer, your art is queer.

Like because you've been trying to find a calibration from your outsized to your insides that is different from what the world has told you. Yeah. It makes things really precious. Because so much about the way that we live culturally is heteronormative that you're rejected by so many basic tenants of so many institutions that you don't, you can't, you know, repel yourself to the outside of all of them or you're just in outer space, you just didn't know where. So you have to find places through these institutions, you know, you can't reject them like I can reject you and it makes people special.

And that's why like when, when I know I'm not supposed to say this, but when I say I like queer people better than straight people, I mean, I don't totally mean that, but I kind of mean that because I just mean right off the bat, I have a built-in respect for you because I know what it took for you to be yourself in this world. Like, that was a battle and a struggle that you fought and are still standing.

So it's like, and it's like two points already for you. Yeah, right? Yeah, exactly. And you're gonna be fun. Yeah, and you're gonna create stuff that's really great. You know, I really, I walked out of Bohemian Rhapsody with my chest like puffed out. Now it was like queer people brought everything great

that there is about American music. With that without queer people and black people, we are fuckers. Like completely, there is nothing fun about us. But I don't know. I still find you a bit of an anomaly, like really interesting, you know, because I just, even if you weren't married and with Abby, I would be like, I wonder when Clinton's gonna come out

of the closet. Really? Yeah. That is such an honor. I'm so sorry you can cut that out if you need to. No, I wanted more. Tell me, do you know I read an Amazon review of my, of love warrior that said,

when the fuck is this woman just going to come out? Yeah. And I was like, oh my God, I have to read reviews so that I can know who I am. Yeah. These people knew before I did. Why? Let me think about it. I just sense it.

You know, I mean, it's not, it's not just sense it. You know what I mean? It's not just an openness. It's just something about your energy. To me, you feel queer. You might see yourself in one place on the spectrum now or another place on the spectrum a year from now or a year ago. But to me, if I had met you and you'd still been married or you were single, I would think, you know, I wonder if Glenin is in the closet or if she's ever, you know, thought about going on a date with a woman.

Absolutely amazing. Yeah, I wish I could explain why. It's just like, I'm like, like a kind of animal that sees a kind of animal and goes, yeah, I get that. It's the like, I'm like a kind of animal that sees a kind of animal and goes, yeah, I get that. It's the Namaskai. It's the, it's why the REI employee approaches you for the carabiner. If they know you want the carabiner, you just don't know you want the carabiner all the, you know, all the time.

Fuck's sake. You want to camp. You actually don't know this, but you want to camp with me in Katherine and I know Abby does. All right. I trust you, I guess. I turned out to be queer, so I guess I could turn out to be a camper. With that, I love you. I love your family. I love everything that you're doing in the world. I'm just so grateful that you guys will

Catherine's in here too, that you all are our friends. All right, y'all, come back on Thursday because we're going to have a double date with you. Yes, Brandi. All right, don't forget this week. We can do hard things. Bye. Oh, I love it! It was wonderful.

I mean, could it be a better interview when you circle back around to REI and Namaskai? It was expert on your part. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlyleon. and Brandy Carlyle. And I continue to believe that I'm the one for me, and because I mine, I walk the line. Can't wait to see the sun shine Can't wait to see the sun shine Can't wait to see the sun shine Can't wait to see the sun shine Can't wait to see the sun shine Can't wait to see the sun shine And the places they've never been To be loved we need to be known

We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache. I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star. Star I'm not the problem sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe the best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak

So man, a final destination With that we stopped asking directions To places they've never been Come to beloved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a hard thing This world finished her rose and heartbreak some math

We might get lost but we're only in that Stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be long We'll finally find our way back home We can do hard things, yeah we can do hard things. We can do hard things is produced in partnership with Kaden's 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it.

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