We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Cameron Esposito: How to Save Your Damn Self (Best Of)

Episode Date: March 2, 2025

Glennon and Abby welcome their dear friend Cameron Esposito to discuss: 1. Cameron’s brutiful relationship with her body–and how it feels playing a sexy TV role. 2. The way Cameron grew up using humor as self-defense and to become socially “valuable”–and the moment she wondered if comedy was no longer working for her.  3. Why Cameron says she’s able to cry for the first time in 35 years.  4. How as a gender-nonconforming queer kid, Cameron felt “overnoticed”–and how being a comedian allows her to “hide in plain sight." 5. The rule Cameron and Glennon made to help them become better at friendship. CW: eating disorders About Cameron: Cameron Esposito is a queer, gender non-conforming standup comic, actor, writer and host. As a standup, Cameron has headlined tours and festivals nationwide and internationally. As an actor and host, Cameron has been seen across television and film, appearing in big budget films and beloved Sundance indies, and on Netflix, HBO, NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, Starz, Comedy Central, Logo, TBS, IFC, E! and Cartoon Network. Cameron's podcast, Queery, features hour long conversations with some of the brightest luminaries in the LGBTQ+ community, including Emmy and Grammy winning performers, Olympians, politicians, even an astronaut. Cameron's writing has been published by The New York Times, Vulture/New York Magazine, Vanity Fair, Bon Appetit, Refinery29 and more. Cameron's first book, Save Yourself, was an instant bestseller and is available in paperback March of 2022. Next up, Cameron is set to recur on the ABC series A Million Little Things and appear in HBOMax's Moonshot. Cameron lives in Los Angeles and likes to swim. TW: @cameronesposito IG: @cameronesposito To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for total fund savings adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. pro, you can make your investing steps count. And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for total fund savings adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. Okay, go ahead. Say it how you want to say it. Welcome everybody. Welcome back everybody. We can do hard things podcast. Good job, babe.

That was really good. I should let you do it more. Go you go. Okay, sister's not here today, but the person who is here is very, very exciting to Abby and me because the person who's here today is an IRL friend. Yes, in real life for those who don't know that acronym. Yes, in real life friend. So we've been talking a lot about

Abby and I's new commitment to figuring out what friendship is and to trying to have it. And the person who's here today is one of those people who is one of our guinea pigs. Our friendship guinea pigs. Oh, the one we're trying friendship out with. We are trying friendship out with this person. So this person means a whole lot to us. But what I want to tell you is my first experience with our guest today,

who is Cameron Esposito, I'll stop being so dramatically cryptic. It's so cute when you do that. I know, because I get so excited. You know I'm like really nervous right now. My hands are sweating as usual. And I just want to tell this story because, and it's a little bit gross, but just it's important to me that I tell it. I can't wait. We were on the Together Tour a long time ago. Someone said this comedian, Cameron Esposito, is coming,

and you all are going to freak out because she's totally amazing. And we were like, OK, that's great. Cameron comes on this stage, and for these events, we were all sitting on the stage together. So we were all lined up in couches behind Cameron, who was on the front of the stage. Cameron started to do her set,

which is a fancy word comedians use, which I've learned since I've been friends with Cameron. Okay? Cameron started doing Cameron's set. And you'll remember this night, I actually peed in my pants on the stage. That's what we're talking about. Yes.

So I could not, real pee on a couch in front of 3000,000 people. I wonder how that must feel for Cameron. It was terrifying. And then I had to figure out, like, what am I gonna do? Am I just gonna carry on? Which I did. And I know it sounds weird, but it doesn't sound weird to people who have had babies. It just happens. Yeah, no judgment.

On trampolines, when Cameron's around. I think that Cameron's the funniest person I've ever met in my life. Yep, she's freaking hilarious. Yes. She's kind of like one of those prophet comedians who says all the true things. She's like a priest comedian, which we'll find out. How about we talk to her since she's sitting here and we could just be saying these things to her? That's right. Cameron Esposito is a queer, gender nonconforming, standup comic, actor, writer, and host. As a

standup, Cameron has headlined tours and festivals nationwide and internationally. As an actor and host, Cameron has been seen across television and film, appearing in big budget films and beloved Sundance Indies, and on a million streamers. Cameron hosts a popular podcast, Query, with some of the brightest luminaries

in the LGBTQ plus community. Her first book, Save Yourself, which I freaking love, Yep. was an instant bestseller and is available in paperback now. And very excitingly, Cameron is now on the ABC series, A Million Little Things. So, so exciting. Listen. She's got tattoos. I think we should talk to her now.

Let's start with this. So Cameron, as you say, right now, right now today, your true bio is that you are a big gay adult. Yes. Okay, okay. Well, sort of small. Yeah, small, big gay adult. Yeah.

Right? Right? Yes. Okay, but you- I think I'm Abby's height, but that's not true. And we found this out in a green room once because I had my arm around Abby and I turned, there was a mirror and I said, literally, I think I said,

and we're the same size. I don't know why that was the summary of our hangout. We'd been hanging out before the show. I turned, I said, and we're the same size. I think I am nine inches shorter than Abby. Anyway, but just- You are, Kam, you are. You are.

I mean, I hate to break this to you, but you're actually my size. But I've got big dog energy. Yes, you do. Not that you don't. Anyway, keep going. You have big dog energy, which is why you feel like you look like a big dog.

But what you really look like, Cameron, is a big gay adult, is what we're trying to. Big gay adult. Right, you do. But you started your life not as a big gay adult, but as a little gay kid, correct? Yeah, absolutely. Okay.

I'm so glad we're starting by talking about this because for me, you know, a lot of stuff that I've been thinking about recently is also as a little gay kid, but also like a gender nonconforming kid. Even when I wrote, because some of this is from Save Yourself, that qualification as a little gay kid,

but I think a lot of what I was talking about was gender. When I wrote this book, which was just a few years ago, that was not something that was on my mind the same way. I feel like when I came out few years ago, that was not something that was on my mind the same way. I feel like when I came out 20 years ago, I was like, okay, well first the word that I used was gay, and then eventually I was like lesbian, and then eventually I was like queer and I still use all of those words. But I think the other thing that was going on when I was a little kid is that there's something going on with me that I notice

and that other people have always noticed that is not quite a woman and also a woman. I feel like gender fluid is a word that's making sense to me right now, but a lot of what I was writing about when I was writing about being a little gay kid is that I was like Robin Hood for every Halloween and I collected Kens. And I was only ever Joseph when my sisters and I were doing the Nativity play. And when I was in fourth grade, I auditioned for the male lead of the school play.

And when I was in fourth grade, I auditioned for the male lead of the school play. And my school called home to ask my parents what they wanted to do about this big problem. And my parents said, was she good? They were like, yeah, I mean, obviously, obviously, you're talented. Right. So they let me do it. But the school wouldn't let there be just me. So I had to split the performances with a guy. There was like a guy that they, so they were like, we'll do this, but not totally.

For real. That's so weird. But all of those were childhood experiences. And I think a lot of what I've been thinking about over the last, even just a couple of weeks or months, as things have been coming out in Florida and Texas about children and preventing teachers from talking to children about the actual world. I've never been different than this. And I don't even know what this is, but I've never been different than this. And I don't even know what this is, but I've never been different than this.

I think it's so, and if anybody wants to see some hilarious educational IG videos, go to Cameron Esposito's IG page because thank you. Because these last weeks have been really weird in our community. And it's almost like part of my consciousness has to forget that Florida exists and that Texas exists in order to like live. I don't need to tell you two this because you've recently lived in Florida and I have not, but those are our people.

That's right. I mean, I travel so much for work and I have traveled for, I've been doing this job for 20 years in some capacity. And I often think that there's this weird, especially like in the last couple of election cycles, there's this like coastal elites versus like people that live everywhere else. And I will just tell you, queer people are everywhere. I don't need to tell you, but for any of the listeners that might not know this, because

maybe your job doesn't put you in every situation, queer people are everywhere and like, can't leave. Yeah. Also, sometimes don't want to leave. Yeah. That's where that person lives. Yeah. So I think when I think about these folks, it's like, yo, we are, we are there.

Like that's us, you know. So it's interesting because you're talking about your childhood and knowing that there was something you were that was unique and maybe not as common in everyone else. You call it left of masculine. You are often being mistaken for a boy. But it was also largely about your body. Just your body, right? Like people commenting about your body.

Because I think it's interesting that you're talking about, like, I'm doing a lot of this right now. Stuff I wrote in Untamed that doesn't exactly feel right anymore, and lots of it's about gender and sexuality, wait, what am I talking about? Because when I read your book, it's all in there. I'm like, wait, is she talking about sexuality right now? Wait, is she talking about gender? Wait, is she just talking about body dysmorphia that anybody can have because people who live in women's

bodies are just open for debate. Everybody can just comment on your body. That's what happened to you, right? Yeah. And I mean, you know, because we've talked about this as human friends, I have a very complicated relationship with Mubad. I mean, you know, because we've talked about this as human friends, I have a very complicated relationship with Mubad. I mean, I think there's a couple of different things going on. And some of this I'm actually experiencing in like such a hot way, because I'm on a network TV drama right now. So I've done everything in comedy, but when you're doing something in comedy,

you can kind of be like, ha, I'm joking. You know, even if you're like the love interest, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, we're kissing, but like, you know, take it or leave it. Yeah, it's not as vulnerable. You can have like an armor, but you have to be earnest in acting. Exactly. And so, so on a drama, on a drama, a million little things is a drama. My character's supposed to be like hot enough that Grace Parks' character, somebody I've been watching on TV since Battle Star Galactica and like think is amazing,

my character has to be hot enough that Grace Parks' character would want to slam them up against a wall for one of those classic TV makeouts that we all know so much about. Oh my God. And my shirt has to come off and all this stuff.

And I had to believe that that is true, which has been like a really wild thing because I think even, I don't even think we're used to seeing somebody that looks like me on TV, period. Yes. But then especially that's not undercut by joking around. Yes. And then the thing I've got going on with my body, which is that like, I have kind of a angular and sharp face

and giant sticking up hair. And then I also have like D cup breasts and some Italian-ness going on. What does that mean? I think it's like, I'm actually supposed to live in like my, because I'm Italian. I think I think I'm actually supposed to live in like Rome and be like airing laundry out the window, like, like, and all my children are supposed to be around. Like body wise, I'm supposed to be soft. I want to be hard.

I like do a billion pushups to be like, please. God damn it. I totally get this. Make my arms the way I want my arms to be, you know. I a hundred percent get this. Yeah. And so this body stuff has been happening my whole life. I think maybe a reduction eventually could be something that happens, but I'm not really looking to have top surgery. I'm not really looking to be on hormones or

anything like that right now, which some people are an awesome read for them. It's not really with something I'm looking to pursue. So it's just kind of like, I feel like a confusing presence, but there's also no change or finish line that's going to unconfuse people. Right. Nothing's coming down the pike. That's going to make people unconfused. I said this in like Instagram recently, but it's like, I'm still, I feel like a centaur, you know, it's like, there's like half of this, half of that. And it's just like, here you go, accept this. Oh my gosh. Do you feel, and this is, I'm going to drive people nuts with this question, but I just can't stop asking it.

I'm so badly trying to understand what is gender? Is it even a thing? Like I can't find it in me. Okay. I can't find it in me anywhere. I don't feel like a woman. I don't find it in me. Okay? I can't find it in me anywhere. I don't feel like a woman. I don't feel like a man. Like, I don't know what it means.

It just seems like something that was like a role that was assigned to me. And I was like, I can do this. I'm an A plus student. Like I can, I can be the famous femme that ever femmed. But I have never, not once, and I just told Abby this, I have never looked at a picture of myself ever and been like, that looks like me. Oh wow. Never. Oh, Glennon. Oh, that makes me a little, I wanna, that's so, oh, I have actually. Tell me, tell me what that feels like and like what,

what is gender to you and is it in you or is it just on you? Are you performing it? Is it intrinsic? What is it? Such a great series of questions. Definitely on, right? Definitely on because I have been cultured as a woman so I have a woman's experience. But then also definitely in and that's what I think. I will say there's something like, I mean I hope this isn't othering, but like you and I, Glennon is who I'm talking to right now, we relate to each other in one way. And then Abby and I, we relate to each other in a different way. Like totally across a room,

Abby and I are gonna clock each other and like do, there's two options. You could do like a head tilt or you can do like a bro hug where we're gonna like kind of tap each other on the- Bro hug is so interesting. But I'm never gonna touch Abby's ribs, you know? But if I hug you, I'm gonna like hug you in a totally different way.

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Because maybe Abby and I are like the same parts of a magnet. And you and I are on a spectrum, maybe not so similar. Also doesn't mean we're so different. I don't think of it as like, mask and femme. I don't think of it, it's not like there's like two, right?

But I do think that there is something going on because I can place people who are like me. So there's something going on. I don't, maybe it's limiting, but for me, it's like, I want there to be some stuff that feels like me. Otherwise I feel too floaty in space. Like when you were asking about pictures, when I see Harry Styles or David Bowie, that looks like me. Maybe the rest of the world doesn't think that looks like me. I do. I think that I think you're right. I think that looks like me. So what is that? That's still something, right? Like that's who I want to dress like. And in terms of pictures that I've seen that look like me, I actually like

to wear makeup. I don't really know how to put it on, but I like to wear makeup, but makeup that like I literally have a makeup artist that I've worked with for a decade because makeup is a part of my job and she and I really know each other well. And I've asked her to refer to lipstick as men's lip tint because it just makes me feel more comfortable. I like to have my cheekbones highlighted and well, well not highlighted, bronzed. And I like to have my nose bronzed and that stuff, it makes you more angular. And I like to have my eyebrows filled in, which again is like a way of sort of rebalancing the face. It's odd to think that makeup might make me feel more myself because I do identify as

masculine center, but it does because it's like this sort of glam, bowie version of myself. And then I like to have my hair all big and sort of foppish. And I like to wear suits, but I like those suits to be sort of tailored. Yes. I am so, I love, I think it's so cool that you know all of those things. You have figured out how to match your insides with your outsides, you know?

Because I think when people ask me like, why is your hair always so different? Like when Sarah Paulson talks about playing me, she says one of the things she's excited about is changing. Like how can anyone change their hair so much? I think I'm just always trying to figure out what do I look like? Yeah.

You know? I think that's really common, really human. I think part of the reason I figured this out is because I've been in like the pressure cooker of having, it's just like part of my job to display. When I first started performing, I was just like in college and I was just doing improv kind of like to survive because I was closeted and I was at a school where you couldn't come out. You could be kicked out of school for

being gay. Catholic school, right? You were in Catholic school. Yes. Yeah. And that I never saw that happen to anybody, but it was literally you were not protected by the non-discrimination policy. There were 4,000 people in my class. My first girlfriend and I, we eventually went to like the commencement ball, the end of senior year sort of college prom together, really worried that we would not be able to graduate. And there were two other gay dude couples that made the same choice to do that. So there were six of us in my class of 4,000. And I also didn't know anybody else in other years

at that time that were out. So there were like 12,000 undergrads and there were six of us. So anyway, comedy was a place that I could be seen for something that felt true, even if all of me couldn't be true. And I didn't really know that it would eventually lead to like a job being slammed up against the wall. Like a job being slammed up against the wall. I didn't even know it was like a profession. What happens when fear and prejudice are ignited by the hysteria of war?

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And save yourself, you said, somewhere around the same time that my internal shame alarm started going off, I started leading a double life. I joked instead of crying. I shoved my pain way down and put a joke on top, getting funnier and funnier by the minute. And then you say, 11 was the age myself hatred became, how do I say that word? Sentient. Right. I wrote down on my notes, Glennon became bulimic,

Abby became a soccer star, Cameron became funny. It's like, it's like, it's that idea that from eight to 12, cultural scientists tell us like like that's the age where you start to really internalize your formal indoctrination and you start to like split and you become something to survive. Do you feel like that's what happened to you became funny to survive? 100%.

Yes. I didn't realize this until just a few years ago, but I think I was pretty badly bullied as a child. I thought that's how everybody was treated. I had glasses and braces and a bowl cut and I was, something weird was going on with my gender and I was gay and I was, and I had crossed eyes. This child. There was a lot going on.

And so I think I just made the joke first to sort of be like, I know what you're going to say. Well, here's an even funnier spin, right? And also to sort of have value to people. When I wasn't like, I wasn't able to play the game of being sort of a girl that might be valuable for some other stuff that women are valued for. This is all garbage, by the way. It's not like I think this should exist. But it was another way of making myself valuable

as a friend or as a student, those types of things. So yeah, it got super funny. And actually I have in the last couple of years really wondered about the long-term viability of that skill set because I took it to its end. I was funny, funny, funny, and then I was funny for a living, and then I was having success in that area. And then I was married and that marriage was ending. And it was the first time in my life that I was not, well, for a while it was like private.

So I wasn't able to talk about it on stage. And then I, it was really sad. Like I was sadder than I was funny about it. That's actually a good thing because it changed how I make friends and how I use, um, I like overdeveloped that skill. So I never really told anybody the truth about what was going on. I just told them like, here's the saddest thing you've ever heard, but we're all chuckling

about it. You know, it broke my, my sense of humor broke for a while, which actually is one of the best things that ever happened to me. That's how we started trying to be friends with each other. I wanted to talk about this. I think it's so important. It was like, you and I figured out that like, oh, we just take our trauma and pain, and then we spin it up. And then we serve it to lots of people. But we don't do the middle step, which other human beings do, which is talk about it with other human beings and have actual friends. Yes.

You just perform it. And so we were trying to be like, you've recently reached out to me and said, I'm having feelings and I would like to talk to you about it instead of the internet. Yeah. Like that was the text. Can you talk to us about that? This is a rule I have now. It's a rule I made for myself.

And who knows if rules are good, but I actually think this one is pretty good, which is that I don't bring something to the internet or to stage that I haven't told someone else interpersonally. That's good. And I think part of that is, you know, when you do standup since public speaking, and I'm sure you get this all the time too, Glennon,

and actually I even feel like I know how hard this is for you a little bit just from knowing you. People will talk about public speaking as being the most, like, oh my God, I can't believe you do standup. Like that's so hard. And I'm like, I don't know, different people have different skills. Some people are a brain surgeon. You know, that's the first thing I'll say. The next thing I'll say is like, that's not hard for me. Like, it's not that the skill of stand up isn't hard. You know, any skill is something you can work on over time, but standing up in front of, you know, 20, 200,

the largest audience I've ever performed for is 40,000 people. That, that is like- Safe. Exactly. Mm-hmm. You know what's much worse? Talk to one person that you have to ever see again.

Oh my God, no, nope. That's, that is impossible. Talk to thousands of people. Oh my God. No, nope. That's that is impossible. About two thousands of people that are going to leave. Great. Easy. Like, yeah, no problem. There's no intimacy there. There's some spiritual intimacy, but it's not something that you're going to have to grow. You know, I'm not going to have to show up and have these people know me.

That's right. Oh, right. Oh, that's correct. I just want to say this thing, because I think it's, Abby and I were laughing so hard on the street last night. We were walking home from dinner. So that text, Cameron told me some of the feelings she was having. I wrote back and said,

I don't want to be the annoying meditation person, but I feel like maybe this is how I feel when I'm not meditating at all, what you're saying. So have you tried meditating? And then there was a pause in the text and then Cameron said, well, the thing is I'm in Canada and they don't have that here. Did you, did you try the meditating and did it help? Yes. Yes, I did. I really appreciated the reminder. And yes, it did help. Again, you know,

performing is something people will ask what the experience is like. And I will say you are on, one is on drugs, the way that it affects my adrenaline and my the chemicals inside my body is that I am, I am on an altered state. So like performing kind of makes you just want to, if you're a certain type of person, perform more. Yeah. If you're a certain type of person, like everyone on this podcast. Yeah.

Yeah. Just kind of makes you want to perform more. When I was texting about this, it's like, I had been on this, you know, been working that day. And it's like, the up is so intense and I think I was trying to stay up. Like what else can I do? You know, every day off I'm like writing think pieces, I'm pitching TV show. It's literally like, no, sit down. Yes. Or walk and listen to something, you know, yeah, come down a little bit. But I think once I'm in that state, the last thing I want to do is come down.

How is it going for you? The creating more friendships, the reaching out to human beings, how do you feel more tethered to the earth when you do that? Does it help? What are the challenges? It really does help. I just said this, I'm repeating myself, but it's very hard for me, it's very hard to be known. It's very hard to be open to suggestion if you're a certain type of person. I don't want people to know I don't have it figured out that feels embarrassing for some reason.

We don't know why that is. That's not a healthy reaction to not having it figured out. And also like, I wanna move, I wanna move like fast and loose and have sparky flame out relationships and do a completely wild job and fling my body around the country in a plane. That's like what feels normal to

me. Chaos feels calming. And that really hit me. Yeah, did it? Yeah, that's, that's something. Chaos is so in my, in my, my experience, chill. Just like a, what? Let's go. Yeah. I just feel like I can relax. I'm like, oh, thank God. Finally, the world feels like I feel. Finally, there's not like something I'm not doing or something I could do better. Everything's so impossible that it's like, oh, I can really chill out.

Wow, cool. So anyway, that is what I'm trying to instead have connection and friendship and have the ability to stay. The ability to like not run toward or away, but just to like hang. I'm finding that a lot in my romantic relationship. I'm finding that a lot in having friends that I go back to again and again. I have hobbies.

I'm finding that a lot and having hobbies. Give us a few of them because there's an S at the end of that. What are the hobbies? Oh yeah. I love my hobbies. I run. I have a running partner. Wow.

Like that is so bonkers to me. But I have a running partner. I have a running partner I run with. I go swimming at the YMCA that is in my tiny mountain town that I live in outside of Los Angeles. I take dance classes, which is really cool and new for me. Like ballet and bar classes, which is so gender challenging. I was just going to say, what outfit do you wear? Great question. I wear like a t-shirt and sort of like, I guess yoga pants. But you know, when I was a little kid

and I took a zillion ballet classes, like the boys would wear, they were like black tight pants and a t-shirt. Way cooler. So that's sort of, that's what I wear basically. Way cooler, yeah. Yeah, that's what I wear basically. Way cooler, yes. Yeah, that's what I wear. These are all body things.

This is interesting. You choose things that get you back into your body. How is it going with like having to take your shirt off on a million little things and being this like confident in your body type person? Like how is that all going for someone who's struggled with body dysmorphia and eating and your boobs and all the things? Like how is the experience of it? Right now I can see you're moving around a lot, you're stretching.

Yeah, you're right. These are all body hobbies. We could also talk about theology. That's something else we could talk about in a minute. That's my other hobby. But yeah, I am trying to utilize my body as like a better vehicle for my spirit these days. For a long time, when I was using my body, it would be like alone. Like I'm like, I hike in the woods. No one's there. You know, like that's.

Oh, interesting. Other people have to be around. Huh. I don't- Well, I'm experimenting with other people being around. I did play team sports for a lot of years, but then after that, I don't know if- But then when Abby was continuing that trajectory, then that was no longer a part of my life. I think I felt like I just didn't want anybody to look at me. Okay. And nobody's looking at you, but I really felt like even if they Terminator scan past me,

but don't register me, I don't even want that. I really like using my body and I really like moving around. I've got a ton of energy. I have been challenging myself to be with other people. I don't know anything about bodies or food or whatever. Everyone knows that I'm not an expert on these things. I'm still working on it every minute. But it feels like it must be a move towards health to be doing them with other people because like for eating,

I don't like to eat with other people. I don't like to any exercise with other people. Abby always trying to get me to go to these classes. It sounds like like to any exercise with other people. Abby always trying to get me to go to these classes. It sounds like the most vulnerable, horrific thing ever. I walk by myself. I do yoga by myself. If I'm at a dinner, I'll like not eat and then eat when I get home. If there's something about the isolation of it that feels disordered. So maybe it's moving in the right direction to be like vulnerably sharing those bodily experiences

with other human beings. That sounds right to me. I also will say to like be working on my strength a little bit more with these things as opposed to limiting food intake because I have had a massive history of disordered eating and that can still rear its head where I think like that the solution is eating less, eating different types of foods that are super restrictive.

It's just a different way of for me of like being in touch with my bod because again, it's also not like for me of like being in touch with my bod. Cause again, it's also not like three hours on a treadmill alone. It's sort of like what the class says we're doing. That's so good. I don't need to say what we're doing. That's for sure. That's right.

I should never be in charge of what we're doing when it comes to that stuff. I just think it's really interesting talking about the body and gender and how, Cam, both you and I are a little bit nonconforming gender-wise. But I think it's really interesting because when I think of myself, I think of myself as an attention seeker. And by hearing you, you've just said that you're kind of like an attention-avoider.

And this gender thing is something that actually brings me maybe the most attention in my life. So I don't know what the question is. I just wanted to make that point that like, if you were to have like a lineup of like people, if you're Terminator scanning, it's like people stop at the confusing one, which is me. Interesting. Yes, yeah, exactly. And again, it's like-

And I love that for some reason. You love it? You like it? I love it, yeah, except in a women's bathroom, I hate it. I'm like- Oh God, I mean, that's so interesting that you like. So this is a thing that I when it was brought to my attention, it almost broke my brain.

One thing that's true is I cry constantly. I cry all the time. I have a lot of emotions. I only found this out a couple of years ago because prior to that, I was allowing zero of them to exit my body. It's in your book. It's in your book that you didn't cry. And so now you cry. I cry all the time. It's in your book. It's in your book that you didn't cry. And so now you cry. I cry all the time.

Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah. Thank you, my friend. That's so wonderful. I have so much support on this. Yeah. I basically like never cried one time until I was 35. Wow.

And then anyway, I cry constantly. My spouse, Katie, is very gentle, calming energy. Correct. And well, one thing that will happen sometimes is that if she might hug me, if I don't even know I'm going to cry yet, this is true. Sometimes I'm laughing and I'm going to do a laugh to cry, but I don't know that's going to happen. But Katie knows that's going to happen. Oh my God. And she'll do a little hug on me and it's terrible because it's like, oh no, now this is going to definitely happen and I can't believe you noticed.

And then something I would say to her when she would do this was don't notice me. She hugs me. I would go, don't notice me. But I would say it frequently, but I didn't even realize I was saying it. And then she's very noticing person. And so she mentioned this to me one time that I would say, don't notice me. And I was like, yeah, I mean, that's it. That's it right there is like, I feel over noticed in my life.

I feel like for my whole life I've been over noticed about like being a little kid, people telling me I'm fat. When I was like also not fat. Being a little kid and like my clothes are the wrong thing or getting stirred, but that feels dangerous because it feels scary. And I don't know, when is this person going to find out they've made a mistake and have they made a mistake and you know, all of this. And so I just feel over noticed. And I think that's again, you

think about something like stand up. It's like, okay, fine. You want to see like, you have to pay. Yeah. And I get to be in charge. Yep. And I can kick you out. That's right. Like it's like, it's a, and it's not a conversation because you don't get to talk back. No, no. Yeah, exactly. It's a monologue. Yes. Yeah. Your part in this is laughing, which is like actually a submissive posture in the primate kingdom. So, um, I will, you want to, if you want to notice me come right in here, I will, uh, control and dominate you want to notice me, come right in here. I will control and dominate you for an hour and it will be like wizardry and also kind of spiritual. Yeah.

And then you can go home. I find it interesting that I can speak to thousands of people and feel fine about it. I feel like I did you your service. I gave you good things, but if I'm sitting in a room with people, I feel like a burden to them. I'm like, I feel like I'm so sorry that you have to listen to me talk. I'm always ending conversations quickly

because I assume the other person just wants to leave. Like, I feel like, I'm on a stage because we've already decided what the transaction is. And you can't say you got into this accidentally. But if I'm 100% okay. Okay. No, I love this. I'm just thinking about how I've never, never one time.

Well, I've been experimenting with this recently, but until about a month ago, never has a therapist ended a session with me. It's always like, I'm like looking at the clock and then I'm like, all right, well, I think it's time to wrap up. Remember our first phone conversation ever? Oh my God. We were on for five seconds. I was like, okay, so it's a good day, Baba. Are you having a good day? She said, yeah. I said, okay, well, this has been great. And I was like, wait, you're not gonna do the thing where you're just like too nervous to keep talking. Like we're gonna have a proper conversation here. Like you're not just gonna get off and be like, oh, okay, that first call is over with. Like no, I want to actually talk to you.

But isn't that weird to say like to believe that people want to talk to you. But isn't that weird to say like, to believe that people want to talk to you, like you're not a burden. Like in order to have a friend or be a friend, you kind of have to decide that you're not a burden. Huh. Yeah, and the best way that I have found that out is that I now call people when I have something that I like to speak with them about or text them.

That has created a situation where other people do that in my direction. Ooh, do you like it? And so I know it's not terrible. And instead I realize that it is someone trusting me and it feels very, it's like an honor. When you call me or text me, I feel it is an honor. Yes, and you have also called and texted me.

And so I don't, for me, when it's going out, vomit, I wanna die, but because I've experimented with that, and other people have done it back, I know how it actually feels to receive it, which is like, oh, it's like amazing. Yeah. Oh, this person wants me in their life. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And then you feel a little bit tethered to the earth. Yeah. It's friends. That's what friends. It's friendship. It's this friendship idea, which is confusing to me as gender. Okay.

I want to talk about you, when you were little, you wanted to become a priest, but of course you couldn't become a priest because of the vagina, right? You almost said you couldn't become a creep. A creep. There was a little bit of a Freudian slip in there. You almost wanted to be a priest, of course you couldn't be a creep. And so you became a comic where you could hide in plain sight, right? They always say the best place to hide is in plain sight.

So you decided to get on a stage so you could hide there. That's right. Exactly. So no one would notice the real you. Okay. Yeah. I just think it's so interesting and cool. I think you're a priest.

You are a priest. Yeah. The way you use stages and the way you use your Instagram. I mean, everyone has to follow Cameron on Instagram. I think Cameron is probably my favorite follow. Seriously. I mean, I've watched your videos. Over and over. It's subversive and it's everything comedy should be. It doesn't feel like I'm being educated, but I am. And then during COVID, Cameron signed up for a bunch of college divinity classes. Is this the case? Can you talk about the situation with you and faith

and learning and teaching and the fact that you just didn't get the hell out and get as far away as you could? I love this conversation so much. First, I wanna say this because when you were saying hiding in plain sight, that is so, thank you for giving me that language. That's so beautiful.

And it's like, yes, I have recently been realizing it's like, I created like a little avatar, like a little fighter. Like in the video game of life, I created like a little fighter who wears motorcycle jacket and holds a microphone to kind of go out in front of me. Like there's the real me. And then there's like this little, there's this, it's a, it's a dissociative, like protection of my little self. And it's a dissociative protection of my little self.

And it's actually very sweet in that way. Thinking about taking care of myself like that, especially at a young age, but then still now, where there's somebody being like, I got you actually. You hang out back there, I got this one. And then that high-haired stand-up comic goes out ahead into the world and takes care of my more tender self. Very sweet. It is.

I am hoping that other people know that. I'm hoping you two know that that little soft guy and I think you do. For a long time, I was hoping you wouldn't. Anyway, don't notice me. But yeah, don't notice me. But anyway Don't notice me. Um, but anyway, um, yeah, I was raised Catholic and I loved it. My sisters were raised Catholic, couldn't give two shits. I loved it. I thought that, uh, Jesus Christ had some cool stuff to say. And I thought that philosophically going in the temple, flipping tables, I thought that was awesome, you know, and I was really into a sort of leftist socialist revolutionary Jesus who also is accepted by certain communities like the Jesuit community, for instance. So I went to Jesuit college

and that's what I thought I was getting into when I became a theology major was like, we're gonna like fuck some shit up. That's what I thought, Cameron. I thought I was joining the people who were ready to fuck some shit up. I didn't know I was joining the people who wanted to keep building the shit. Exactly, you go, oh, you're the shit factory?

Oh no, this was all colonialism? I didn. Oh, no. This was all colonialism. I didn't realize. I thought this was something else. It's like you you go to join PETA and you end up at the cattle ranchers convention. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I started reading what the church had to say about women first. I like even before I realized I was queer, I started reading with the church

said about women, not the Bible, like the teaching, the stamped teaching that comes from the pope and his friends. And I was like, oh, this is nothing that I agree with. And then also, the spotlight papers were happening at that same time. I lived in Boston. That's when the Catholic Church sex abuse scandal was really being talked about for the first time. And I was just like, none of this. And I left, like I like left hard. I was truly like, I believe in all this.

And then the next day I was like, actually, just as a correction to myself, none of it. I believe in none of it. And I'll leave it here. And then that's how I operated for a long time. However, stand up, as I've been saying, it has always been spiritual for me. There's a feeling when I'm performing

that I'm actually connected to the audience, like physically, like connected through breath. We're all like regulating our heartbeats together in a room like that. One time I was performing at a show and I felt like, this is in the book, but I was like, we're trees, we're all trees connected through a root system. And then afterwards, after the show, I hadn't said this on stage, Reggie Watts, who's the band leader for the James Corden show was like, Hey man, I liked that set, but what

I love the best is how you were all trees connected through the earth. He said that and we hadn't and I hadn't spoken about it. So my point is something spiritual is happening. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. But in the pandemic, when everybody was baking bread, what I was doing was reaching out to eight different master's level theology programs, looking at their course descriptions, writing to specific professors and being like, can I take your classes because I'm thinking about a career

change? Maybe I'd like to be, um, like a non-Catholic priest. Almost all of these professors said, yes, because when a standup comic says, I'd like to take you, I think that they were just genuinely curious. Yes, of course. What are you talking about? Sure. So I took all these classes and one of the most impactful for me, I took them at a bunch of different institutions on a bunch of different topics.

And one of them was at my college at Boston College, where when they called me, they used to call me and say, like, do you want to give, do you want to donate to the school? And very early, I said, I will donate to Boston College when you apologize for the way that you treated me and the other queer students that went there and continue to go there. And they never called me again. They must have ticked off. Like, non-compliant over there. She's never going to donate. Exactly. She should check the gay grievances box. Exactly. But I went back to BC because the head of the theology department when I was a student there who was somebody I really loved and was close to was teaching a class called literally

Just Forgiveness. So I wrote to him and I was like, hey, I don't know if you remember me, I was your student 20 years ago, can I take this class? And he was like, I just was listening to you on NPR. I followed your career. I like think you're awesome and please come take the class. And I did take it and we're still in touch and are now good friends. And I will say that like it didn't bring me back into a place of being like the church

rules. But what it did do is help me realize that these are all just people. And as an adult with all of my faculties and the ability to support myself financially, I was a dependent child when that was happening to me in college. And even I wouldn't have even gone and gotten like therapy on campus or anything like that because it was all not for me. And that is a terrible thing to do to a young person. Yes, it is. But like as an adult going back, I think I just got to see that these are people who

are doing the best. And sometimes somebody's best is pretty bad. And it's a bummer for someone to not have the experience and exposure to be able to like really live the word that they say that they're living. That sucks for them. For them. What a huge bummer for that person. That's beautiful.

Oh, I mean, I gotta get there somehow. I just don't have it yet in my heart to forgive them for not just my experience, but like for your experience. And for all the fucking millions of us, millions of us, millions of us, probably billions of us in the history of humanity that has suffered at the hand of this, just like we're here as a community to support you, to love you. And also you, you don't get to be a part of this community if you're this or that or this or that.

It's just so hypocritical to me. So I love that, that maybe one day I could find forgiveness in my heart. Yeah, there's a freedom to it. We've just interviewed Ocean Wong and he was talking about how if you're carrying the weight of that constantly, then it's like, what do you get to do that's creative in your

life? And so many people have, for marginalized groups have talked about that, this like the, the opportunity cost of the resistance of that constantly is that you're always directionally moving against something because you're still just living your life in reaction to the man instead of choosing how you get to live your one beautiful and precious life. So I think that is probably what forgiveness is. It's not like I feel good about you anymore. It's just I'm sick of holding you. You don't deserve it. I love that. Right?

Definitely. I think that for me, I was consumed by hatred. I think that for me, I was consumed by hatred. I mean, congrats to those people, places, and things that I hated because they got so much of my time and energy. Yes. That's such a win for them. This is an evolving thing for me. I don't think I've hit some finish line here, but it is that thing of what is forgiveness? Is it like,

I send you on your way sweetly or is it just like, Oh, you're wrong. Oh, well, you know, like, is it like forgiveness, maybe really lightness. Yeah, lightness. It's putting something down. It's directional to me. It's like, I will no longer live that way towards you. Like I'm going to move onward. I bet you it had to be very healing to also take the class from the place that probably brought so many of these feelings inside of you. I find that interesting too, because we all wish we could find healing separate from the thing and it's very annoying that sometimes

it's like when somebody gets a snake bite and then the antidote to the bite has to have some of the poison from the bite in it to heal it. That's how I feel about people who get hurt by the church. I think this is right. I can't remember where I found this. I was really in this deep dive on forgiveness. This is like what I was spending a lot of I found this. I was really in this deep dive on forgiveness. This is like what I was spending a lot of my pandemic on is like what is, I was so angry at so many people, places and things and I was like, forgiveness. This is what I need to spend my energy on.

I came across this like Buddhist teaching that was like running away from something and running towards something, but that's the same thing. So to need to leave and get the hell out of here, which is how I felt a lot of my life, or to need to find the solution and get ever so close to that, which is the other half of how I felt in my life.

It's like a panic. It's just like an utter panic and just a lack of acceptance, right? It's like that things would need to be different. That's what I've been working on is less running towards in a way. Wow. And more deciding for yourself where you want to go. Yeah. And also more just like sitting, just like sitting still. Because that's not even a decision. It's more like maybe there is no decision. It's kind of

what I was talking about with the gender. I guess this is what my body looks like and it has this head. I guess that's true. I guess this is true. It's been true has this head. I guess that's true. I guess this is true. It's been true for 40 years, I guess it's true. That's so good. So we were talking to our other friends besides you and Katie. Our two other friends. Our two other friends.

Okay, and they are like OG gays. They're like, what would you call them? What does OG stand for? Old gays. Right? And he original gangsters? Yeah, that's exactly right. Oh, oh! Okay, so they're OG OGs.

They're original gangster old gays. And when I mean old, I mean like original. I don't mean old in age. Okay? I mean like they've been gays for a long time in the public eye like you. Okay? So, we were talking and they were talking about this sort of whiplash that they feel because the way that they would describe it is like one

day and for their whole lives they were like being persecuted as lesbians and then like the next day Old Navy was like sewing pride flags and everyone was queer. And they just say like where is the support group for, like, this, this whiplash that has happened to so many of us where it just happened overnight and now we're all supposed to be, like, happily assimilated without any processing. And interestingly enough, they're talking about what if we didn't want the assimilation? Yeah. Like what if we, part of our identity was the fact that we created this community and now everybody wants to be friends with the queers. What do you think about that?

And then also, I want to know do fresh queries like me ever annoy you? And I want to know the truth about this because I do feel like sometimes those of us who have come out in the Pride flags at old Navy era can sort of have a different energy. It's almost like Karen queer energy. Like, like queer ends. I would call it. Oh no. Did you just, is that from just now? Yeah.

Yeah. You just did it. I can't believe I was here when that happened. Just now. Yeah. Yeah. Great! You just did it! I can't believe I was here when that happened. Just now. Yeah, just now. You're kidding. Yeah. I love a smushed word together. Smushed words together are my jam.

Oh, a portmanteau? That's my gender. Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Mousy. So you know what I'm saying though. Like Abby and I talk about that a lot. Like I will say something and she'll be like, listen, you just got here.

You just got here. Like, don't, do we ever, do querons, do you ever experience queron energy? I'm gonna tell you this, okay, here's the thing that I find the most annoying thing on the planet. This is, to me, well, annoying is the right word because there are things that are like less just

but more angering. So I'll just say annoying is the right word. To me, the most annoying thing on the planet is the idea that we are somehow at a place that like being queer, being gay, being lesbian, that's like totally chill. It's like a chill vibe. I know you have so many different types of listeners.

So I mean this with love. This is often coming from the straight world that seems very surprised that this is still a thing. But I'm gonna tell you that it's still stressful to move into a new neighborhood, it's still stressful to be on a plane, it's still stressful to wear a wedding ring. I don't actually think we're done.

Now, less often am I being arrested for holding hands with my wife on the street? That's the thing that used to happen and that is happening less often. So now that there is no change. But I do think that one thing that's very weird is like, I feel like when marriage equality happened, and it's not just that trans folks still are marginalized and murdered, it's not just that, it's not like, it's that like, marriage equality, okay, so we have like basic, vague, legal protections that are not applied the same in every state,

every city, by every landlord. Like, we didn't really get anywhere. No. We got somewhere. But when we got to that place, that place was still full of tricks. Yes. So I think that's the thing that when you ask this question, I feel like...

the thing that keeps us all... I like being in the fight. Because I do think it's part of what makes us special. Is like, is the being in the fight. But like the queering of all things, when my straight sister is in a world where people don't talk about her child's father babysitting their daughter. Then maybe we'll be at a certain place, but I don't think we're at a place yet.

Yeah. It's interesting. It's like homophobia and racism, they have in our country have the don't notice me thing too. And the way they do the don't notice me thing, because racism and homophobia are legislated. They're like, don't notice me because I'm going to go on stage and create my avatar that looks like Pride Month. Right. Right? That's right.

So it's like the queering of everything is only capitalism deep. It's not in any of our laws. So actually Pride Month doesn't help us at all. It's like a red herring. It's like, look at us. We're so gay friendly. But we need the laws to be gay friendly, not old Navy. And then here's one thing I just want to make sure to revisit. To your question about queerness?

Queerance, yeah. Glennon, I didn't get to date the people that I wanted to date when I was in adolescence and puberty. I had a lot of boyfriends, which is like I wasn't somebody who didn't get to date people. But everybody that I was dating, they were the nicest people. All of my friends, I was in love with my best friends, just a series of best friends. And I wanted to be loved by them, not necessarily noticed, but loved by them. And it was so heart-wrenching. And it has been a formative part of my whole life is that this feeling of wanting

and not having a place for that to land that is receptive in the way that I would like for it to be. And I don't feel like you just got here and I'm pissed. I feel like that sounds so hard I feel like that sounds so hard for anybody who, like I live 20 years that way. It sounds so hard to live longer than that. And I just like, I mean, it is really hard to not be yourself. For any minute of time. That's so beautiful. Any minute of time. So beautiful, Cameron. For any minute of time. That's so beautiful. For any minute of time. So beautiful, Cameron. Cameron, you are one of my favorite people to talk to on this entire planet.

I basically am tearing up. This is really happening. I really, I love you and respect both of you very much. Same, Zs. Same. And I just want to say thank you for the work that you've been doing the last couple of years, especially because you are always, both of you, always putting yourselves out there, but it is so intense the amount of visibility that you've both been visible for a long time, but it does feel like an increased number of magnifying glasses. And that does seem again, really challenging. And so just I see it and I love you.

We love you. We love you too. Thank you, Cameron. And we love you Pod Squad. We'll see you at the next We Can Do Hard Things. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you,

it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend we would be so grateful we appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abbey Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burman and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Alison Schott, Dina

Kleiner and Bill Schultz.