We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Chelsea Handler: On Breaking Up & Being Unbreakable

Episode Date: July 21, 2022

Chelsea Handler comes to We Can Do Hard Things to talk for the first time about her breakup with Jo Koy, her definition of real love, and her commitment to never abandon herself.  About Chelsea: Chelsea Handler is a comedian, television host, best-selling author and advocate whose humor and candor have established her as one of the most celebrated voices in entertainment and pop culture. She was the host of E!’s top-rated “Chelsea Lately”, a tenure in which Handler was the only female late-night talk show host on-air. Her documentary series “Chelsea Does” was followed by her talk show “Chelsea” on Netflix in 2016.  She has penned six best-selling books, five of which have reached #1 on the New York Times Bestseller list, including 2019’s Life Will Be the Death of Me. In 2020, she released her first stand-up special in over 6 years, the critically acclaimed “Chelsea Handler: Evolution” on HBO Max, which earned her a Grammy nomination for Best Comedy Album.  Most recently, she launched her iHeart Radio advice podcast “Dear Chelsea” and embarked on the “Vaccinated and Horny” Tour, bringing her sensational stand-up set to 40+ cities across the nation and winning “The Comedy Act of 2021” at the People’s Choice Awards. TW: @chelseahandler IG: @chelseahandler To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it. Download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we have our dear friend, Chelsea Handler, who a few days ago announced her breakup from Jo Koi, and who is here today to talk about that breakup publicly for the first time.

This conversation with her is, well, it just changed my heart. It's a lesson in how to love and how to let go and how not to abandon yourself. Chelsea Himmler. Let me start your podcast for you today, Chelsea. Oh, hey, Cissy, what's up? Oh, hey, Cissy, what's up?

Hi. I love you. I love you on the podcast, Amanda. I just wanted to say you guys, you know, I love you, I love you on the podcast Amanda. I just wanted to say you guys, you know, we have been trying to schedule this for months, for me to come on and I was gonna come on with my boyfriend, who's now my ex-boyfriend, Joe, Koi. And I was scheduled and because Glendon and I have a very

beautiful honest history together. When we were scheduled, we were having some issues, and I texted her and said, I don't think this is a good time for us to come on and be representing relationships or couples or anything. We're going to head to some therapy and try and sort this out. And now here I am alone. And I just publicly announced that Joe Koy and I

are going our separate ways. And I can't be happier to be spending this morning with all three of you. Same. I feel the exact same way. I wish I was actually just on your couch. Right now, but this will do. On my lap.

I wish you were on my lap right now. Same. Same. Just holding me like a baby. That's what I wish. That's what I wish. That's what I wish. A reverse baby hold. That's how I feel right now.

I mean, I just love you so big and have for so long. And I just, I'm grateful to be with you this morning. I can't believe that it worked this way, but I know, right? It's the universe working all of us together at the same time. So yes, yes, here I am. Yeah, here we all are. How are you right now in this moment? I'm okay. I mean, I feel, you know, optimistic about the future now. I've changed so much and I've loved my love is like so big that it just blew me open.

And as painful as the ending of something like that is, I'm so well versed in therapy and understanding that every door shutting is a new beginning. And I do believe it. I don't think that's horseshit. I think that when you have the the grounding and the courage to say, you know, that something isn't working, you're saying a lot more than that to the whole world, you know, and you're inviting in things that are going to be workable and more suited to your needs and what you're available for. And so I'm really happy to be a handling a breakup in an honest way for the first time in my life, you know, instead of, you know, distracting, deflecting and doing all these things to be like,

I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. And then you know, the delayed grief hits you three or four months later and you're on the your knees. And you haven't really dealt with anything. And in this instance, you know, this has been happening for some time with us. And I've been dealing with it in real time, in therapy, out of therapy with my girlfriends, with all my support systems, knowing that when you wear your own pain to sit with it, not to go away or take an edible, even though I always love edibles. You love edibles, not to try to numb your pain is what I've learned.

That is the best way to get through grief in a real responsible way and in a healthy way where it's not gonna come and sneak up on you later. Because as anyone who's listening knows when you're in a relationship or you break up from a love relationship, it is an emotional roller coaster and one day you think you're killing it and the next day you are not killing it and that is now like the understanding of those emotions that they're coming like,

okay, you're feeling strong now, just wait, something's around the corner and conversely that's true. now just wait, something's around the corner, and conversely, that's true. So I have my toolkit now, and that's the most invaluable thing that I ever got from Dr. Dan Seagull is my toolkit. And he made me like an actualized self-aware person. And having the gift of self-awareness has been the biggest gift that I've been given in

this life. What's in your toolkit that you're going to pull out today? Because this is like day one, right? Well, we've been dealing with this behind the scenes for a while. So, but yes, it's publicly day one. What's in my toolkit? You know, I meditate. I read a lot, you know, especially when I want to go to the TV to just kind of zone out, I don't.

Well, I do sometimes, but in times like this, I read stuff that I know is going to help me. I listen to things that I think are going to help me. And I allow the time for reflection, like sitting in my backyard and looking at the trees and thinking about everything that has transpired and all the good things that I got out of this and all the great, this it inspired and so many other people, all the people that would come running up to us on the streets of New York City or Memphis

or wherever we were, being like, we want your love, we want your love, you know, like that made me believe in so much. It made me believe that there is somebody for everybody. And I still believe that, you know, my person is coming. And whether that is jokoi in, you know, at a certain time or if it's not, like, I accept that. I don't, I'm not, you know, in that immature mode where I need to know the answers.

I mean, we all want to know when we're breaking up what the answers are. But, you know, that's part of the unknowing is, that's part of the maturity is to be sit in the unknowing and still function and just go, yeah, this is where I am right now. Nothing is breaking me. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How did you know this is a question that I think about all the time, work with work, with relationships, with everything?

How do you know, how did you know, when it was time to stop digging? Because it's like hard to know when to dig deeper in a relationship and when to quit digging. Like when a relationship is the right kind of hard or the wrong kind of hard. I think when, you know, it becomes untenable and it becomes unhealthy. Like if you're arguing, you know, it's devolving. If you can't have conversations that are calm and loving and constant and you're

not a team, you're not feeling like a team. And then it becomes untenable. People are open sometimes in their lives and sometimes they're really closed off and a lot of people, it's not a fun job to do the work of looking inward. Like we all know that, it's ugly. And if someone had told me before I went to therapy,

hey, you're going to be going, you know, to the sky for two years, two or three times a week and fucking crying every single day for two hours and feeling like, you know, a lunatic and out of control and unspooled and all of this thing, I would have been like, no way am I doing that. I don't have time to feel that bad about myself. And so it's not an attractive endeavor for many people. And especially when your pain or your trauma is right here, I understand the wanting to avoid that,

the avoidance of wanting to look in with that. And I think, you know, I'm at a place in my life that I have to be with somebody who's where I'm at with that. And, you know, that's at a place in my life that I have to be with somebody who's where I'm at with that. And, you know, that's not to say anything about Jo Koi. I love him and he's on his own path. And, you know, I just, that's what I need as a human being. I had to have a conversation with myself about how much, you know, like, not, I wasn't going to abandon myself.

You know, and if I have to choose one person, I have to choose myself. Yeah. Yeah. So is that the wrong kind of hardest when you stay in something, when you choose the thing and you abandon yourself for that thing? Yeah.

When you choose to lower your standards, your expectations, when you're, it's nice to twist and move for somebody. You know what I mean? It's nice to be bendable because I used to be so in-transigent in my relationships. My opinions were fully formed. I knew who was right. Everybody was wrong.

If you disagreed with me, you didn't know what you were talking about until you agreed with me. And then I could explain to you some more truths. Like, let me explain what's going on in the world. Do you know what I mean? Like that attitude when you need to be right is always when you're wrong. You know, when you need to be right. And so I think when you're not communicating in a loving way, and that becomes a regular thing, then you have to call it out of love and respect for both of you. You can't continue like that.

And I don't, and so like I said, it's nice to bend for people. It's nice to learn how to compromise. It's nice to be able to demonstrate my love publicly. That was something I was never able to do for anybody. But I believe Joe needed that, you know? And it was part for that, partly for that and partly for our fans, because of the reaction we got when we got together that warmed my heart so much.

And I was like, oh God, I'm gonna make everybody fall in love. I'm gonna find a, I'm gonna find a lid for every pot, you know? And I was so inspired by us. I know like if you cracked me open, I can, but you know, Joe didn't crack me open. My psychiatrist cracked me open and then I was open. And then I was able to bend for somebody and move and compromise and make them the biggest part of my life. But you can't change somebody, you know, intrinsically. And so I was willing to do so much bending, but that there's a line. And I'm very proud of myself because I didn't let myself cross that line. Yeah, you know, it's such a freaking, it's such a, it's a love lesson. And as,

adjust as inspiring, if not more inspiring than like, I found a lid for my pot. Like, I'm not changing my pot. What do you mean when you say your psychiatrist broke you open? Well, he opened me, you know, I had all these stipulations, all this protective gear about, you know, protecting myself

against men because of my history, because of my brother passing away when I was a little girl and my father retreating emotionally, psychologically afterward, he could never get past my brother dying, he just was never the same. So there was like an abandonment, you know, on both fronts.

And because of that trauma, I layered and wrapped myself up in this bitch, like fuck you, especially if you're a man, back the fuck up because I'm going to tell you what to do. And I'm not going to need anything from you. Financial independence was like always, like never, ever, ever, ever rely on anyone but yourself. I had to grow myself up when I was a little girl. And we've all had our shit. And anyone who pretends they haven't been through shit, then come to my house and I'll show you some shit. You know what I mean? Like it's bullshit.

But I think that Dan, he took my judgments and he just broke them apart. Like when I would say, Oh, I can't go out with this guy because of this or I couldn't go out with Joe Koi because he drove a white Ferrari. I'm like, I've been there, done that. Okay. I really went out with 50 set. I don't need a fucking white Ferrari in my life. It's embarrassing for me to get out of a white Ferrari. Okay. I don't want to have prod a written right on the side of it. You know, like, I couldn't, like stuff like that that was not a deal breaker or not a real non-negotiable, but I had made it that one. You know, like, I couldn't, like stuff like that that was not a deal breaker or not a real non-negotiable, but I had made it one, you know.

I once went on a date with a guy who wore an Air Mays belt that I hadn't seen because he was seated when I arrived. Oh, yeah. And when we got, but when he got up to go to the bathroom, oh no, he got up to, when I got there and I saw it and, and when he got up to go to the bathroom, like 45 minutes later, I got my person walking. I was like, what? I was like, I was like, is this guy a fucking for real? First of all, he's wearing cologne and an air maze belt. So I was like, this is a no brainer. There's no way any penetration could ever happen with this man, no matter

how many showers he took after that cologne or how many other belts he had. Right. You would have had to abandon yourself Yes, I would have had exactly yeah a different sort of abandoning But um, but yes, no Dan really just made me look at myself and like what are all these protections about? You know, why do you think that you don't need a man? Why do you think that you don't need a partner? Why do why I'm like because I'm happy? But it was a defense, you know? It was like, now I know, oh, and added it, as long as it's an addition, you know?

No one's going to subtract from what I've built for myself, from my family, from my friends, from the love, and that I've surrounded myself with, like my friendships are so deep now, they're real, you know, they're not based on bullshit or convenience or me having a talk show and having to have fake friendships with a million people. It's not like that anymore. Like everything is authentic and if you're my friend, it's because I love you and it's

because you've shown me love as well. And I've just, I mean, he really made me understand all the barriers I had around me. And I was able to pick that apart slowly. And then with Joe Kui, he just kept showing up and showing up and showing up. And I capitulated because I fell for him. And I fell in love with him because he has so many amazing qualities. And I realized how, what that can be. What a partnership can be.

Like, whereas I used to astute like, oh, I'm not, you know, I don't wanna wake up with somebody in my space. I mean, like you two with your videos all the time. Like, the other day when you were just like, I hate everything, I'm set all the time. I'm like, God, Abby does not miss a fucking beat with this camera.

I know. I'm like, you know, and I'm like, oh, I thought that that would gross me out to have someone in my space so much and to be connected to someone so much that our dinners were always gonna be together or every vacation was gonna be together. And I was, was gonna be together. And I learn now that I love that.

Like, I love this togetherness, you know, with the right person and the right chemistry, like, and the healthiness of it. Like, that is something that I am gonna look for again. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. Parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it.

That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. Shh. Ha, ha, ha. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. Ha, ha, ha. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing,

and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

How did this particular relationship change you? Because it's such an interesting paradigm we have set up for women, which is like, if the only victory is a happily ever after forever, and ever, if we set that bullshit up, and then what is the inverse of that? A failure is a breakup. But actually, any relationship that changes you to the point that you look like this has changed you in terms of like being broken open in a beautiful, illuminating way. Yeah.

Feels like great success to me. So how has this particular one changed you? Well, I think my heart is not closing because we're breaking up. That's one way. I'm not like, oh God, I'm done with men. I mean, I joked with you yesterday texting that I'm one step closer to becoming a lesbian.

We can put nuts, but who is it? The last man world goes with the demonstration of men and their behavior the last five years. There is a mass exodus of adults on set lesbianism happening. Let's be honest, everyone is considering it. So people who are not naturally have no predilection towards women are like, I can do that. Yeah. We can do hard things.

Yeah. But how he changed me, you know, his vibe, his energy, he like injected that. He's, he has an infectious way about him. And he's up and beat and, you know, he gives everybody hugs all the time, which annoys the shit out of me because he tells everybody he meets I love you. And I had to start saying that to the people who work at my house, whether it's the pool guy, the landscaper, my housekeeper who I do love,

because we've been together for like 16 years, but I was telling the pool guy that I loved him at the end of our relationship. I'm like, I love you. I'm like, if I don't do it, I'm like a big fucking gun. You know what I mean? After Joe's hugging everybody. So I was hugging everybody.

And he's changed me in that way. I mean, I'm not going to continue hugging everybody. That's too much. That's too much. I mean, I don't mind hugging, but like, it's much better than a handshake. That's gross at this point. But I don't need to be telling everybody I love them. I can give love without, you know, there are things

that he injected into me that made me just realize, like my stoke for standup, you know, came back. My desire and my ambition is back, whereas I was kind of, for a couple of years, like who gives a shit about all of this? I was so judgmental about myself and my participation in Hollywood, in my identity as a famous person.

And what did that mean and how empty was that? All as a result of therapy where you start to analyze what your what's your motivation? And are you okay with your identity being completely tied to being a celebrity? Like, what does that mean about you? And is that all you've got? The self-realization of everything made me kind of, it would be icked out by ambition, by working, by putting my nose down or my head down and doing kind of hard, the hard stuff.

You know, like, going back to stand up after I had left it for so many years. I mean, I did that before Joe, but like he reinvigorated my love for it. He just directed my special that I shot in Nashville at the Reimann. He really changed the way that I view work, which is great for me because I'm ready for like, you know, I'm back in it now. And I'm into it. And for the right reasons, not for the motivation that I was questioning earlier. Do you think that those were defense mechanisms too? Like if you don't let people in because you can be jaded and you can keep them out from touching you, with the same apply for your love for your work, if you say like, oh, this doesn't mean anything.

I mean, if you allow it in, does that actually let you love your work again? Do you think there's a parallel? I think there's a power. I mean, there's a big, I'm so much more present than I used to be. I used to get on stage, have a couple drinks, be like, fuck, what is this going to be over?

Like, not respecting the fact that people are there spending money on me, just know, just kind of collecting, collecting all my good stuff and not really respecting the, the people that are there, you know, now I go on stage. My standup has never been sharper. I'm always like strong. I'm clear headed. I have a clarity that I haven't had in so long.

And yeah, yeah, it's taking things for granted. You know, when you're not able to look at yourself, you're not able to look at your motivations and what's behind everything. And, you know, in this business, especially it can get pretty confusing if you're not centered and grounded and constantly reminding yourself

that you're just a human being. This isn't at all. This does not define you. It is a part of who you are. It is not all of who you are. So you're, you announced this yesterday. First of all, what made you announce the, the break up last night? Like, did you have a moment where you're like, all right, this is it. Like, how did you decide that it was the right time? Well, my publicist called and outlets were calling and asking, it was getting leaked by people. So we split up about a month ago.

And it's like, I figured we could just reconvene when we all went everything kind of cooled down. And I just figured it was time, you know. He's got a big movie coming out. And I did not want him to be standing on the red carpet, answering questions about me in his big moment and You know Joe pretty much takes my lead on things. So I thought I better get ahead of it

Not ahead of it. I just better meet the moment and you know Actually tell everybody how I really feel instead of ignoring it. I hate that You know, I mean, it's been such a public relationship. It would be silly to pretend it didn't happen. Do you mind if I read a little bit of it? No. Okay. Because I just want to talk to you about the beauty of this actual announcement, because it's like a love letter.

And I think it's going to teach so many people how to do this in a way that is both powerful and beautiful and is a victory. Okay, here it goes. I'm not a cryer, but this one might sneak through my legs. Okay. I did alexa. Oh, yes, you do. Yes, you do. I can hook you up. Okay. In anticipation of celebrating our first year together, Joe and I recorded this video early, but as many of you have noticed, it's with a heavy heart. We announced that we have decided together that it is best for us to take a break from our relationship right now. I know many of you were invested in our love, and I wanted to express to you how much that meant to both of us, how much it still means, and how much I now believe in love for each one of us.

This man blew my heart open with love, and because of him, my life experience has changed forever. To be loved and adored by Joe Koi has been one of the greatest gifts of my life. He renewed my faith in men and love in being 100% who I am. And I've never been more optimistic for the future. Joe, you blew my creativity open,

my lust for working hard again, being on the road again, and you reminded me who I was and always have been. And my feet have never been more firmly planted in the ground. This is not an ending, it's another beginning. And it's a comfort to know that I am still loved and love this man the way the sun loves the moon and the moon loves the sun. Your person is coming. So please continue to root for both of us because you never know what life will bring. Oh, yeah, yay. I mean kindness, generosity, respect, leadership, a script, just like,

move ahead and like, what, so what, what were you going for there? It landed well. I was just going for putting out love, you know, like Like I think when you're in pain, the most important thing you could do is just love out, give it away. Just love out and when someone else is in pain, I needed to just give him love. And you process this differently as a man and a woman, obviously. And I really thought he needed to hear those things and I really thought I needed to say them, you know, so everyone knows that it wasn't like, you know, when she did or anything like that, it just didn't work out.

And I did everything I could to try to make it work everybody knew that this is a different me. Like this is how, this is the first time that I've ended a relationship where I feel like an adult, you know. And where it's, it's because it was the mature thing to do. And yeah, what you were saying before is like, when do you know when it's time to get out of a relationship, we always know you just keep running dialogues in our head to convince ourselves otherwise,

but when you know you know, it's like any other intuition you have, you have to like close your eyes and listen to your gut and understand that sometimes the pain that you're going to go through for a breakup is going to be much more preferable than remaining in something that isn't working anymore. That's right. It's the right kind of hard. It's opposed to the wrong kind of hard, which is just a slow dying of self. Yeah, and a slow, yes, a dying of yourself,

and abandoning of yourself of, you know, of, I think of myself as someone who likes to set an example for other women and young women, especially, to be true to who you are and to do the work that isn't pretty. And, you know, like the benefits are there always. And it's like, I was talking to my friend I don't know if you guys know who Laura Lynn Jackson is she's a Oh yeah yeah yeah I was talking to Laura yesterday who's awesome and she was like you know she told

me to do something that I really did not want to do and she's like this is about your soul it's about getting your soul to the next level. This is for your soul journey. If you do this now, you're raising yourself. I was like, ah, you know, and I was like, okay, I'll do it. You know, I'll do it. And I had to make a phone call that I didn't want to make. And I did what I should exactly what she did. Like she's my doctor.

I was like, whatever Lord Jackson's helping to do in this moment, I'm gonna do, you know. And so I think about that, like you can, you know how we always go through things in life and we can look back at our breakups and we are always like, fuck, why did I do that? Why did I call that person? Yeah, I was drunk.

Why did I send that text and in reactive mode? Why did I send that text and re-inreactive mode? Why didn't I stop and put my phone away? And then I called my friend before I said that. And this is that, like, it's such a reward to not behave that way. Mm-hmm. Yes. It's like catching up with yourself.

Like when I'm in that reactive mode, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna regret this in 10 hours. And then I just try what's happening as you're doing it. And you're like step away, step, oh, she didn't get away. Yeah, yeah, step away, step away, put your phone down and take a walk. Like just, it doesn't take long to cool down and get your senses back.

And so it's just the exercise of doing it. And once you learn that exercise and you practice it, it keeps coming back to you and you don't forget. Then it feels like you're missing something when you don't do it. I used to react to emails before I had even finished reading them. I would be like, excuse me, you fucking idiot.

Are you fucking idiot or what? And be like, and then send without even, and then I'd be like, excuse me, you fucking idiot. Are you fucking idiot or what? And be like, and then send, you know, without even, and then I'd be like, wait, oh, are there 18 other people on the same path? Yeah, Percy Dutel. You know, like I, so yeah. My, my, Lauren Linn Jackson, who is a different person, told me that my spiritual exercise has to be

a, uh, saviors drafts. Yeah. That whether it's in real life, whether it's in an email, that I can say what I want to say, but I have to press saves drafts and not send it for 24 hours. Um, and that's a way of not being reactive. Do you have tricks? Um, I just know to put my phone down. I go outside a lot when I'm thinking, I go grab one of my dogs to calm down.

And I just, I know myself so well now, you know, I not that I'm cooked and I'm fixed or ready, you know, for heaven. But I know what's up with me, you know, what my weaknesses are. And I've worked on them really hard. And I've had a lot of relationships and whether there be romantic or friendships, you know, I've had a lot of friendships and because of my honesty or because people, you know, don't want to hear the truth. And I have very, very strong relationship with telling the truth.

Yes, I just feel like there's a dearth of honesty and I feel like you are nobody unless you could hold the truth and just tell somebody something that may or may not hurt them when somebody is in pain and you know something or you have something, especially for women, women. You don't need anyone to just bullshit you. And that's ruined a lot of my friendships, you know?

And it's a heart, it comes off as harsh and it comes off as aggressive and like bullying and stuff. But that's not something that I'm willing to modify, you know what I mean? Like there are things that you can work on and then there are things that you hold onto because they're part of what makes you who you are and they're your character. And, you know, you can try and use them a little bit more discernibly, but also, again, don't divorce yourself of your truth. Do you feel like I have a good fiery friend? I see the same in you, which is truth telling,

truth telling, truth telling. That is that not the way that you do love. Like a lot of people in friendships don't say the thing, or don't do the thing. And so they're perceived as the kind ones, the nice ones. To me, the person in relationship who's bringing the truth, who's bringing the fire, it might sound aggressive, but that's actually love. Because that's like taking the confrontational risk

and like truly showing up for a person. Do you feel like, when you, do you feel misunderstood by that? Do you feel like that is actually how you're loving? Yeah, if I feel like one of my friends is being treated in a way that is not acceptable, then I will go to bat for them. You know what I mean?

It's so easy to defend other people than it is to defend yourself. Sometimes I had a relationship with a friend for a long time who did some stuff that was really, really hurtful to me. And I kind of swallowed that for a while, but when I saw it happen to another friend that she did what she did, I couldn't help myself. I was like, now this is what

we're talking about here, you know, I had a conversation with you and now you're doing it again to our other friend and I'm watching you. Like, you didn't hear anything I said. And then, you know, that friend immediately sent me an email like, I need space from you. I can't be spoken to like this. Da-da-da-da-da. And I was like, no problem. Anytime anyone asks for space, no problem. You don't fight that, you don't resist the change, you just accept it. People are in different places in their lives. In that moment, it was more important for me

to stick up for my friend who was not being treated well than it was to worry about the status of that other friendship. And I pride myself on that. I would do that for a stranger. I would go to bat for someone I met in an airport bathroom as long as they weren't asking for a picture while I was on the toilet. Yes.

Yes. Um, I said this to this woman the other day. I was like, can we just get out of the bathroom please before we do this? Yeah. Can we, is this the background that you're looking for? Yeah. That's it. I just feel so much compassion for you Chelsea and I feel like you've been going through this

and it's so tender and it's so real and it's so big in your life. And then this is day one of a whole nother phase where you have to do this in public. And it just feels like just as like a wound that you're starting to heal over here, over. What is it like to then have to share something so sacred to you with the world and all their nonsense and no one knows what to say. Even the people who are trying to support you, I'm sure saying really stupid shit. What is that? What is that like? And what can people do better for folks like you who they love and they want to support and to break up, yeah. Well, you know, something really sweet happened.

Like when Joe and I broke up and you know, his humor, he was living with me and you know, all of his stuff was being moved out of my house. And my housekeeper, my bell, who's like, my nanny basically, and my dog's real mother. She and my groundskeeper and all the things that rich people have, they all were sitting with me

in the kitchen, I came in one day and broke down. And they loved Joe so much. They all loved Joe, everyone in my life loves him because he's such a ray of sunshine. And they came in and my bell put her arm around me and she goes, just so you know, you know, we all love him, but you, you know, you're our girl. We love you. We're here for you. We'll always be here for you.

And just that made me like, you know, turn into a blathering mess because it went so much to me because I really thought they like him more. Like, like, oh, it's a reminder that all the people in your life are there because of you. They were there before him. And they'll be there after him. Nobody was there because of him. All of the people in my life, in my circle, my circle of friends, my family, as much as everyone loved us together, and the magic of what we had when we were together,

and they have come to me in such a way that's like, no, no, no, no, we're with you. And not that you have to take sides. It's not like that, but it's a reminder that you're valuable and you have your own relationships and they're not because of another person, they're because of you. You're the center of their solar system

and you always have been. But when you bring somebody else to the equation, it's not like you split the solar system. It's just like a Venn diagram where Joe was taking up a little bit more space and then it's like a reminder, oh no, here you are our person and that's fucking so sweet. Yeah. How do you think being this vulnerable broken up Chelsea,

which you're psychiatrist into? Do you do that artist thing where artists worry that if they get healthy, they're right, like in my world, we can't, you can't get too healthy or your writing will start sucking because you have to suffer and be miserable in order to have good writing.

Do you, how do you think your standup and your work world will change with this wise, vulnerable open? I mean, it's always changing, you know? world will change with this wise, vulnerable, open. I mean, it's always changing, you know, like I've done, I did a stand up special a couple of years ago, right after I wrote my last book, that was very like profound and meaningful and deep and like something that I didn't think you could do and stand up until in a net or Hannah Gadsby did that.

And I was like, oh, I could, I wanna do that. I wanna tell that story, like, you know, and that was a little bit more serious, but it was received really well. And this special that I just taped is fucking badass like OG, my kind of comedy. And I talk about hate from hating men to falling for Joe Koy. it's all in their COVIDs in their dating, you know, like all the stuff that I grapple with. And I just think, you know, if you're an artist, as long as you're authentic to yourself, you know, right now I'm writing a book with Whitney, your editor. We share an editor now. I, yes, I just signed a deal about falling in love, about my love story. Oh my God. And I was like, oh, well, this is kind of similar to what happened with love warrior, you know?

Yeah. I was like, uh, but, but, you know, it isn't because it's like, I still fell in love. I still have my love story. It was by way of Joe, but it's not because of Joe. Like Joe is part of my story. Joe is not my whole story. There's still because of Joe. Like Joe is part of my story. Joe is not my whole story. There's still more to come. And so, you know, like creatively,

I think that that one line, you know, don't resist change from Eckhart Tolley or Deepak or one of those people that, you know, I could never have a real conversation with because I'm like, what? But I like to read their quotes. but I like to read their quotes. And I like to read their books. Um, I had debunked Chopra on Fods and I was like, wait, what?

I'm like, what are you, what are you talking about? Just send me a book, dude. Just send me a book. I know. Him and his rhinestone glasses. I'm like, this is very confusing messaging. Dissonance. Uh, sorry. So, I was gonna say a false equivalency and I'm like, well, that doesn't make any sense at all.

But I think if you're an artist, you know, you always have to accept the change, right? We always have to just go with the change. That's right. You have to be like, okay, my life is different. This is okay. I'm not breakable. Unbreakable. That's who I am.

Like, I, this isn't gonna break me psychologically. My spirit is never going to wane. This is gonna make me stronger. I've never been more aware of my strength before than I am now. And, you know, that in and of itself is something I wish I could just have a big bottle of people to dip it into because there are so many women, you know, that you talk to, that I talk to,

that call into my podcast, that I just want to hold and be like, you are so special, you just have to start believing that. You are so strong. We all have this reservoir of strength within us just by the nature of us being alive. And some of us don't even realize how easy it is to tap into that and how available it is for us to tap into. And so that has to be part of my messaging. And it's always been part of my messaging. You know, I don't do anything creative anymore

that doesn't have a message or doesn't make you think about what your stance on something is, or how you view the world, or how you view yourself in your own entitlement, or lack thereof. So yeah, I forget what the question was. Doesn't matter. It was a great answer.

You used a phrase at the very beginning of this conversation that I'm still thinking about because you said, I'm dealing with it now so that I don't have delayed grief. And in a lot that I've heard from you on your podcast, you talk about how when you lost chat, your beloved brother, you realized decades later that the delayed grief was an intrinsic part of all the defenses that you put up. And you also talk about how Joe shared so many beautiful qualities with chat. I'm wondering, did any part of this relationship heal something for you with, with chat? And is there, is there something to that?

Because there seems parallels to, you know, now you're not, you're, you're protecting yourself in the positive way. I'm not delayaying the grief. Mm. Yes, yeah, I mean, I felt my brother, I felt a lot of my brother in, in, in Joe, Joe wears flannels all the time. And like, for a while, I never made the connection, but my brother used to wear flannels all the time. And I remember walking into Joe's house

into his closet one day, and when we first started dating, and I saw this just array of flannels hanging everywhere and I went, oh my God, this is my brother's closet. And I remember just, I used to come home after school every day and go to my brother's closet after he died to smell his shirts and go through his shirts and sit by myself in his bed

because I was so tough, no one could see me cry. My parents weren't there, they were probably fucking sleeping. And I would just go in there and do my grieving alone and let anyone see me, no one was allowed to see me cry. No, that was awful limits for like probably 25 years. And I could cry for other people, but it couldn't be about me. You know what I mean? And so when my friends would break up,

or I remember my friend Amber, her wedding got called off like a week before, you know, the guy left her, and I could not get over that. My God was a wreck for her. I was, she was consoling me. You know, I'd be sleeping in her bed and she'd be like, can you fucking leave?

You are bringing me down. And my other friend was like, hey, I hate to break this to you, but this is not about Amber, okay? You have some unfinished business. But I was in my 20s. I didn't know what I was crying about, you know? And now I know what I was crying about. But yeah, there was a lot of chat in my end Joe.

And there was a lot of my mom and Joe, you know, Joe is so loving and so caring and does everything for, you know, did everything for me. You know, would hold slip on in his pockets to make sure that because I am an lip on addict and hold my purse. Never let's me carry anything, you know, in the middle of the night he would put a pillow underneath my legs because he knows I like to sleep like that. He did so many little, like, only a mother love type things, you know, that my mom would have done for me. And that it was a and I felt I felt their presence around us a lot like I felt like they brought

him to me for a reason. So yeah, there was a lot of healing, you know, there's been a lot of healing with chat with Dan, my psychiatrist, because that's what the crux of all of it was. It was about that, you know, about being abandoned at that early age, and he was an attachment figure to me. Like, he was my boy friend. I was nine, and he was 22, and he took me everywhere, like his little play thing, you know, and I was like, where's Chad? We're going for a five hour drive to our summer house. I would drive a chat.

Like, Chad and Chelsea was like, you know, bookends. He was oldest and I was the youngest. So there was a lot of healing that had to happen with Dan, which I hated. I mean, I can't tell you the amount of times I would sit in therapy and Dan would be like, Chelsea, when you were nine, I'm like, Dan, please, we've been over this so many times. If you draw everything back to chat, I'm going to stop taking you seriously. And I had that attitude, like this isn't about my childhood.

And that is the first sign when someone says that sentence, it is the first sign that unitheoreopy and And that's what I said. I go that this is nothing to see here nothing. I said my mom's dead my brother's dead Hopefully my dad will die soon. I'm like I'm good with death There's nothing to talk about with my childhood. I'm like I'm actually just really impatient and pulsive and bitchy I would like to work on those three things and you know now I know what that sentence meant. And I know when people are stuck, I also can see it. And I can help them.

I was funny. I went out with dinner to my girlfriends the other night and it was like a dinner to like, you know, help me and be there for me. And my one girlfriend was just a hot mess. Like, just going through this cycle of men and this and she's like, I don't I don't want to wait for him. But this guy doesn't want to be exclusive and I looked at her, I go, listen to me. You're in no place to be making any of these decisions.

I'm telling you from sitting down here tonight, you're not healthy right now. Like you are unhealthy and you're not looking at yourself. You are going through something and you have to allow yourself to go through something and stop putting using men as band-aids on this. That is not going to fix you. You are doing more damage than good. Like I basically had to shake her. My friend the next morning, the other friend was like, shit, that didn't really turn around.

She's like, we were supposed to be there to help you. And then you end up going off on her. And, but it's true. Like, you know, when I see someone in pain, I wanna help them. I know what that means now. I know how to, how to like, you know, untapped that grief and say, look at yourself.

And so, you know, that's part of that honesty thing. If you have the tools to help somebody, how could you not? Yeah. My friend calls those carefrontations. Carefrontations. That's what I'm gonna have to take care of. Carefare. I'm gonna write that down, carefrontations.

The next time I have one, I'm gonna like, you know this is a carefrontation. Care, wait, how do you say it? Carefrontation. Carefrontation. Carefrontation. Okay. That'll be in the dictionary by March. I think I know Chelsea will make it.

So. Do you know, this is a little woo-woo, but do you know the theory that there's like this wound in our life in our childhood? And then if and when we create this like healthier version of ourselves, what we often do next is recreate what happened to us so we can end it differently? Oh, no, I've never heard that. It's interesting, right, that you, this fear of abandonment thing, and then, and then shut to the loss of chat. And now here you are, having truly been brave enough to do it,

to enter into this, open up your heart, and you're ending it in an opposite, you're like, taking that power back that you didn't have when you were a kid because you're doing it in a way where you don't self-abandoned and you don't grieve in a closet. Like you're actually, you might still be in a closet, but it's very public. You're grieving, you're showing all of your pain and grief dealing with it now, instead of putting it away. And you're doing it for all of us. I like that. Just this idea that that's how we take back some of the power of our childhood. That we have to. I mean, people repeat those cycles all the time and patterns. They don't

always end them differently, but they definitely get into the same pattern structure, same dynamic, whether it's abusive or whether it's interdependent or avoidin and anxious, you know, all of those kind of dynamics that can be repetitive. Like, you know, you have to disrupt the cycle. Right? I remember who it is. It's Galipe, Dr. Galipe Atlas. Yeah. Okay. Let me write that down. Next, I carefrontation. She says, she says we either repeat or we repair. Yes. So we always repeat the thing, right? Yes, yes.

But either we repeat it mindlessly or we do this repair thing which just feels like what you're doing which is repeat it but end it differently and that that's healing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, because you know, you talk about your inner child a lot in therapy, you know, with a person that you were, the age that you were when you were traumatized.

Like for me, it was nine when my brother left. So emotionally, I kind of stopped maturing. I wasn't in touch with how to articulate my pain. I was never told or spoke to a doctor that could help me through that. So in relationships, I would show up as that nine year old girl. I would throw tantrums. And instead of saying, I'm hurt or I love you, I would be like, no, I would withhold or stop my feet or be silent, you know, like childish behavior. And boyfriends

were like, listen, what's your deal? I remember I had one boyfriend who was like, I don't know what's going on with you, but it feels like you have no ability to articulate your feelings. And I was like, no, how would I? Like, you know, I thought my stopping my feet was that. Like that, I thought that was how I got it across. And, you know, going into therapy and understanding, oh, why you get so stuck when you talk about your feelings is because you, I didn't have the language, you know, and that's something that I see in a lot of people. And when you don't have the language to communicate, then it's, you're

never going to, you're're never gonna have a healthy adult romantic relationship. You're never going to. That's what you did with that announcement. I feel like you gave people language to do this in a way that is a higher way. Yeah, or wise a self. Yeah.

Why's a self move? And you're writing this new book about your love story. It's not about you and Joe, it's about you and you. Yeah. Why is a self-moving? And you're writing this new book about your love story. It's not about you and Joe. It's about you and you. Yeah. It's about the love story. You're writing the relationship you're having with yourself. And I cried and laughed when I was training for my marathon because I was listening to your book. Number one, I found you on the side of the road. I was just like weeping. I mean, Chelsea, I can't tell you how impactful that book was and how much I longed for you to find real love. And I think that we get it also fucked and wrong with the love stories in the movie world and TV world. Like love is actually the relationship we have with ourselves.

And that's what you showed me with the with the post and coming out with the story is the love that you now have and you've created and you built this world around you for yourself. Because so many people have a romantic love story, but it requires self abandonment. Yeah. And that's not it. It's not just being partnered. And I love what you're saying, Abby, because it's also like, I've been in love with myself before, where I really thought, wow, you're fucking awesome. You know what I mean?

You've got something that a lot of people don't got. But to love yourself is a much different feeling than being in love with yourself. Yes. You're not telling us. So casing yourself for others and it falling in love with yourself. Yes. You're not telling us. You're not showcasing yourself for others and falling in love with that. You actually have looked inward

and you love and respect yourself. And no one, once that is built, you can't take that away from somebody. It's the same way that you can be really strong. Like you've always been. I mean, you have been strong, like a bull. And as unapologetic and as shameless, there's no one that wouldn't call you strong. And then with this, though, it's like you're strong enough to be weak. I mean, anyone can stand

in strength when they are surrounded by a fortress of defenses. But super fucking strong people can stand there with no defense. Yeah. And that's what I feel like you did with that post. It was equal parts, total strength and total weakness. Which we use as a like a negative thing. Softness.

Vulnerability, yeah. Vulnerability, yeah. But you were like, this is how much I care. This is how much I care. Well, vulnerability is strength. You know, for a long time, I looked at that. It's like, oh, vulnerability is weakness. And it's like, no, vulnerability is strength.

Vulnerability is knowing that like, okay, you're putting yourself out there in a way that is strength. Vulnerability is knowing that like, okay, you're putting yourself out there in a way that is revealing and uncomfortable. And that's strong. Yes. And that's a good reminder, you know, for everybody because the defensiveness and the toughness and the inability, you know, one thing I learned

in therapy that was so valuable was my inability to like be alone, you know, one thing I learned in therapy that was so valuable was my inability to, like, be alone, you know, to sit, like, just not even, you know, with the TV on, to sit in my backyard and just look at the trees or the grass or whatever. And I didn't understand why that was an issue. I was like, but I don't want to be alone. I like people. I always had an entourage. I always had people living in my house. And he was like, that's great. You can always have that. But if you don't have a relationship with your own thoughts,

if you're so scared to be alone with your inner dialogue and you're scared of what's gonna come up, then you're fucked up. There's no shortcut around it. Like no one gets away with it. No one gets away with not looking at themselves. It will bite you in the ass, just when you are on top of the world,

like I did with me, I was on top of the world and it bit me in the ass. And then I was defenseless because I just fell down. You know what I mean? My defenses, I was out of defenses. And that's not a desirable way for it to happen. It's so much more positive and powerful. Yeah, thank you.

Like to seek out the truth, you know, and not worry about that dulling your creativity. You're gonna be a fuller, wholeer person who's gonna be even more relatable, you know? Because since I've cracked open, people can relate to me so much more. I was unrelatable before I went to therapy. Exactly.

You know, like, it was, people are like, what's wrong with this fucking bitch? Is she like this all the time? I'm like, what do you mean? I'm to therapy. You know, like, it was, people are like, what's wrong with this fucking bitch? Is she like this all the time? I'm like, what do you mean? I'm crushing it. Like, inspirational, but not relatable. Yes. Exactly.

Exactly. And, you know, the escapism, you know, I love to party. I love to talk about it. I love mushrooms. I love cannabis. I love alcohol. I love all of it. But, you know But my relationship with all of that has also changed because of therapy, because you're like,

okay, well, that's an unreasonable amount. What are you doing there? And even now, especially in the throws of my feelings right now, in this last month of separating from Joe, there are times where I've had a couple drinks with friends and then there are times where like, no, I don't wanna feel that way, I wanna sleep well.

I don't wanna wake up in the middle of the night. I don't wanna numb this, I don't wanna get drunk and have fun right now, I wanna deal with the pain that I'm in and exhaust that pain and get through it because that is the best way in that book. I don't know if you guys have read this David Hawking's book, let him go. It's pretty deep and pretty metaphysical.

So you have to be like really down with it when you read it, because otherwise you're like, huh? And he talks about this guy who lost his mother and he just went to a cabin and just sat alone in this cabin and cried and cried and cried until he felt joy again. And he faced his grief head on and dealt with it. And he was able to exhaust it at a much quicker rate than when you are constantly trying to distract yourself from your own pain. Mm. Fuck.

Exhausting it. That is second. I've never heard exhaust your pain. Yeah, it's like running out three-year-old boy around in the backyard. That's how I think of pain. Let me fucking run it around and run it around so that it gets so tired that it leaves my body

in a quicker succession than, you know, all the other stuff can delay your grief. And so, yeah, I wanna exhaust that pain. And it's working. I feel joyful. And even though I feel heartbroken, I feel so joyful and optimistic and grateful. Like grateful for these amazing people in my life. Grateful to be sitting here,

having a conversation like this, you know, I would never have been able to talk like this openly before I went to therapy. I would never be able to let anyone see me this way. And, you know, like, I have so much gratitude for that growth and gratitude for the fact that these conversations, like on your podcast, on my podcast, on multiple podcasts, I mean, there's only like six or seven podcasts.

So let's be honest. We have half of them. We are all talking about this stuff because the only way to make somebody stronger is to share. Yeah. It's like grief. It's like the Jewish tradition of sitting in Shiva. Shiva. Yeah. Just to shiver for yourself for a while. Yeah. Yeah. It's like grief. It's like the Jewish tradition of sitting Shiva. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for yourself. And that's not to say it's not like a pity party.

It's a active, yeah, it's an active grieving. It's so funny because like Shiva is so depressing. That's just the way. Wouldn't it be great if every, every funeral was a celebration of life and we all just took part of that person and lived in their honor, you know, instead of Feeling sorry that they're not here anymore. No one's ever really gone, you know People aren't gone once you've met them. They're with you forever if you love them And if you had something special and that's worthwhile and there's a different way frame death. And there's a different way for us to cope with death. And that's why it's so beautiful when you talk about this loss in some way of Joe, is that everything you just said is true.

Like that person is forever gonna be part of you. That experience is forever gonna be part of you. You are changed because of it. And it's almost like the rest of your loves that you have on out are in part in honor of that. Yes, absolutely. Like my next relationship will only be stronger and better. You know, I don't have any time for anything other than excellent. any time for anything other than excellent. And, you know, I'm excellent. And I want that in return. You know, and so that's, there's a lot of dignity that comes from that self-exploration. And a lot of, you know, self-assurance. You can go through times in your life. I certainly have

where I have been insecure or self-conscious or second guest myself. And that's not a fun feeling. And you know, most people don't know that you could get out of that. Chelsea, thank you. I don't, I just the way that you are walking through this is going to change lives and it's going to, it's, it's a victory march. It is how I feel about it because it is going to help so many people not abandon themselves and redefine what victory and love is, which is that, which is perhaps partnering and only partnering with the person who never requires self abandonment of you. And that it's just want everybody to repeat the mantra, I am excellent.

Yes. And I deserve excellence. Yes. Let us take that. You're just, I just fucking love you, Chelsea Handler. Oh my God, I love you guys. I love all three of you. I love you so much.

And I love that we have a history together, Glenin, from so many years and we've done so many fun things together, you know, whether it be interviewing, well, it's always interviewing, but it's so fun to do it with you. All right, the rest of you, we will see you next time on Weekend Do Hard Things. Thanks for doing hard things with us, Chelsea. hard things. Thanks for doing hard things with us Chelsea. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry

about it. It's fine.