We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Craig Melton on DATING!!! – with Logan Ury

Episode Date: June 16, 2023

Logan Ury helps Glennon’s former husband and co-parent, Craig Melton, navigate the wild world of dating as a grown up: How to identify your patterns that aren’t working for you; how to know if something’s really a deal breaker; why dating in your twenties is like “start-up” while dating later in life is a “merger”; an honest audit of Craig’s online dating profile; how to ensure you’re meeting who you want to meet; and how Craig factors whether or not Glennon and Abby will like who he’s dating.  About Logan:  Logan Ury is a behavioral scientist turned dating coach and the author of the bestselling dating book How to Not Die Alone: The Surprising Science That Will Help You Find Love. She works as Hinge’s Director of Relationship Science, conducting research on modern dating. She runs an online community through her weekly newsletter — Logan's Love Letter. She studied psychology at Harvard and ran Google’s behavioral science team, the Irrational Lab. She lives in the Bay Area with her husband Scott.  TW: @loganury IG: @loganury IG: @craigmelton14 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. We are very excited today because we have the specialist guest ever, Craig Melton. You know him, you love him. He's a damn national treasure. And he is here with Logan Yuri, who is a behavioral scientist, turned dating coach and the author of the best selling dating book, How to not die alone, the surprising science that will help you find love. Our last episode, if you have not listened,

you have to go back. Abby, Glen and Logan and I had a fascinating conversation about really what's under dating, how the hell you date is a grown-up, how you can be true to yourself to find who you want to attract into your life, significant others, including a partner, or also just delightful folks you want to fill your life up with an expanded life. And today, we are taking that wisdom

and making it practical and concrete with our very own Craig Melton. Craig is not only my beloved brother-in-law. He is Chase, Tish, and Amma's father and co-parent of them with Glennon and Abby. And he is also a man on the scene as it were. For about seven years, you've been dating Craig, is that right? That's about right. Yeah. Wow. Yep. Thank you for being here. And as you will note, Glenin and Abby are not. So speak freely because we are actually looking contrary to what she indicated on the last podcast. We are looking for you

to find your person, not necessarily a sister wife. Well, thank you for having me. Logan is here to talk to us about you and what you're looking for and patterns and how to find what you're looking for. So get us up to speed on where you are, Craig, in your current situation. So I've been dating for somebody for three months. And I guess my dating, ever since seven years ago, the whole process is kind of evolved a bit. You know, it was married 14 years. And back in the day before there were apps you met people just out and about. And so coming on to the scene, learning the apps, learning how to navigate that has been a bit of a process, the place that I'm at now in the South Bay. There's a lot of single people so you can meet people more organically out and about. And that's where I'm at

this person. So I feel like it's a more natural way. You can kind of get to know somebody where there's no filters and people fabricating their age or, you know, what have you. So it's early on, but that's where I'm at now. Great. All right. So Craig, I'm going to treat this a little bit like a coaching session, but, you know, push back a bit against too personal, but just want to see, you know, how do you feel right now sitting here and talking publicly about your dating life? feel right now sitting here and talking publicly about your dating life. Definitely nervous, but I'm open-minded because I know that there are obviously patterns that you bring into each that I've probably just continued to have from relationship to

relationship right. And so I'm willing to unpack those, but I'm definitely nervous. Why not? No one likes to hear about the negatives about patterns that might not be helping the relationship. Yeah, we can also frame it in terms of opportunities, you know, what to do differently moving forward, what to keep the same.

When you look back at the last seven years of dating, what are some of the patterns that you recognize? So where were you usually meeting these people who usually ended it? Were you the same person in all these relationships? Would you feel like you showed up as a different person? Talk to me about what those seven years have been like. Sure. It also depends on the geographic area that you're in as well because being in the previous place in Naples a lot of my friends were you know, married with kids and so I didn't go out a lot So I think the opportunity to meet people was more online.

And so I just kind of had to learn that a bit versus now where people, there's just more single people so you can meet them organically out and about. But I think I was looking for some perfection after divorce. There were just little things that I looking back that I wouldn't do today. So I was the one to end things a lot. I was the one to say, okay, this is a non-starter.

And it might have been a little thing, but I kind of held onto that little thing and just said, nope, I can do this next part of my life the way I want to do it. And so why compromise? If this thing is bothering me, I don't have to just accept it. So looking back, there's some things that

I probably was a little bit too picky about. Now, I think I would probably work through it. So I think I've evolved a little bit there. But I think, yeah, I was definitely the one to end things just because of little nitpicky things that right outside of the door. So I was like, I'm not going to go for that. I'm not going to do this. This is a non-starter. So yeah, I heard you took the quiz on my website and you're a maximizer. Yeah, tell me about what that is. Yeah, a maximizer. I mean, you really just described it in your own story, which is feeling like, okay, there could always be something better out there being really picky. I think for you, the narrative is, I got married. I was married for 14 years. It didn't work out. So if I'm going to do it again, it better be perfect

as a really holding your next relationship to a really high level. Instead of maybe saying, I've seen the reality that no relationship is perfect and it didn't work out the first time. So I'm going to have a more realistic view of what partnership can be. It seems like you were like, well, when I do it again,

this time I better get it right. And so why don't you tell me a little bit about some of the things that you broke up with people for in the past that maybe looking back, you're like, hmm, wasn't actually a huge deal. Oh gosh, some of those were situational. And also, if I look back on a pattern, being in the area that I was was a very conservative area.

And so there were some sort of beliefs and things that I felt maybe didn't match up. So so there were some sort of beliefs and things that I felt maybe didn't match up. So I know a pattern, I dated a girl who was two hours away for a while. So I would date out of town. And that work for a time period, but then there has to be a point where, okay, is that person going to move here? Am I going to move there? And when you then have kids involved and co-parents, it becomes difficult. So there was times where I would break up with somebody because I was moving to Los Angeles and I wanted to start fresh. There were certain instances where somebody maybe was a little controlling.

And I just didn't think that that was a healthy relationship. But especially if that's happening in the early parts of dating, you know, I was thinking in my mind, if I fast forward 10 or 15 years, how bad is it going to get? There was some insecurities, and I think everybody's insecure, but there's kind of a fine line between being a little bit insecure and then being totally insecure where that person can't trust themselves, and they're then almost projecting that on me. So those are some of the reasons why I ended things. And also, I think some of it was timing right after the divorce I wasn't looking to get right into a serious relationship. And so there were times when the woman would get

really close really fast. And I think it was just too quick. It was too soon for me to get that serious that quick. I don't even know if I've ever heard, are you looking for like I want a serious long-term partnered potential like slash spouse? Is that what you want? Yeah, so that's a good question. So I didn't want that for the longest time because I wanted to try to navigate and date and figure out what I wanted. But recently the last six months, I've been dating out here in Los Angeles and there's

some pros and cons to be in an area where there's a lot of single people. But yeah, I think I am ready. I am ready to find somebody that I want to you know, just settle down with and be present with that person and integrate with the kids and have all of that because dating, there's some good parts about it, but it's also very exhausting sometimes too. So yeah, I think I am ready. Well, that's exciting, Craig. It's really exciting. I never heard you say that. I know. That it's just like you're ready for a more consistent, integrated part of your life to like bring into all the parts of your life person.

And that's a very different kind of person. Right. Then maybe someone who's like, Hey, two hours away and lots of fun. Right, right. Is a different. Yeah. That's a totally different relationship. Okay. Now I'm out of my, what I know about life. So, right. Is it different? Yeah. That's a totally different relationship.

Okay. Now I'm out of my, what I know about life. So, you know, I love that. But Craig, I just want to validate you for a minute and say, I was thinking that you might say almost like these things that Jerry Seinfeld used to break up with people for on his show where it was like, oh, I didn't like the way she ate peas or I didn't like the way she pronounces words. I actually think what you said is super reasonable.

It's like to controlling yep sounds like a relationship to get out of or two hours away with no timeline for living in the same city. That's also reasonable. And so I just want to give you the confidence that you probably know more about relationships than you're giving yourself credit for because I think that's some of the beauty of dating after divorce dating in your 40s and things like that is you have a much greater sense of who you are like when you and Glennon met you were probably such a different person from that now and now you get a Reset and you get a chance to choose someone who suits who you are today not who you were in high school or you know in your early 20s. Right. Yeah. Thank you. I mean, there are, there were some nitpicky things, but I think I over, I, I,

I, No, I would overlook. I mean, there were some things like, you know, for instance, there were some hygiene things if somebody was super messy in the bathroom. Yeah. You know, I would overlook that, but those were things. You're just like, okay, if that's something that's happening now, I feel like the first whatever, you probably know more than this, with the honeymoon period.

I don't know when that lasts. 18 months, 12 months. But if things are, if things are messy, whether it's a messy car, if it's somebody who talks over you, those are little things that I would look over out of a conversation about. And if it didn't improve, then that would be maybe a reason to talk further about it.

One lesson that I've learned through my research that's been really helpful to me and my relationship is that the gauntmens, who are sort of the godfathers of relationship science found that 69% of problems in relationships are perpetual. So what they mean is they don't get solved. So for example, I'm an earlier on time person. My husband is a late person. I have asked him for eight years to change and he will not. And what that means is that sometimes we go to the airport at different times. And so understanding that every relationship has problems and that you're choosing a set of

problems that you can live with, not just looking for a relationship without problems or looking for a person you can change, I think that that's given me kind of a zen feeling around it, which is like, yep, I chose this person with this set of problems and I can cope with them. I'm not looking for the day where he's going to want to be super early to go to the airport. So picking your battles, right? Yeah. And picking the set of problems that you can cope with as opposed to keep kind of being a maximizer and looking for someone with whom there's no problems.

Yeah, and I think that's a good point because I think early on I wouldn't settle for a lot of those things. Those are things that I would be like like, that's, I can't do that. You know, if you're late and I'm early, then that's a red flag, because I feel like being early to something, being on time is important, or having a device, having your phone on the table when we're eating.

That's a non-starter. If you're on the phone, that person, your Apple Watch, that person is more important than me. Unless that person has kids and you to specify, hey, I've got a babysitter, you know, that kind of thing. But there were some things that are non-starters. I think I'm at now, I've evolved to a place

where I'm gonna accept certain things that I think are just part of relationships. And obviously there's no perfect person. But you get to choose those, right? Yeah, like isn't that the beauty of being on the open market? Is that you get to choose the particular problems that you're like,

yeah, you can live with that one. If you decide the being late and you're a different person than Logan, if you're like, nope, being late is not one of my ones I'm going to choose to live with or the phone thing. But other people might be like, yeah, it's annoying, but I can roll with it. But you actually are the chooser of that. You do get to choose it and it's empowering, but a big message that I work on with my clients is the difference between a pet peeve and a deal breaker. So I find that as we get older, we put more and more things into the deal breaker, as I've called it, the non-starter category. And so, an analogy that I like to use is that when you're dating in your 20s, it's like a startup.

Two people coming together, forming a company, and it's messy, but you figure things out together and you're on a team. When you date in your later 30s, your 40s and beyond, it's like a merger. Two completely formed companies coming together, each with their own HR department, each with their own CEO, each with their own policies. And mergers are really hard because both people think that they've figured it out. And so Craig, you are in a position where when you date, it's going to be more of a merger. And so there are going to be moments where you have to compromise. But as Amanda said, you get to decide what you're willing to compromise on and what you're willing not to compromise on. But I

think the more that you can look at something as I would prefer that that not be the case, but it's not a deal breaker, the more people that you'll welcome into your life, and then evaluate for the stuff that really matters, like how they make you feel versus something that's maybe you wouldn't choose it, but it doesn't mean that you couldn't be great long-term partners. So it sounds like over the last six months, there has been a shift. What do you think happened? Do you think it's just maturing? Is it getting clear on your goals? Because I think you are where a lot of people want to be, which is really making that shift towards getting closer. Yeah, I don't know if there's a definitive moment that I was just like, yes,

this is it. I think dating out here, I really value a lot of the East Coast. I'm seeing a different trends of people out here versus the East Coast dating with which there's some things like being on time showing up when you're saying I'm showing up. There's a lot of beautiful people with options and I feel like the consistency is not here. With that said, I've met a lot of great people, some people that I've been on a date with that I'm actually really good friends with now. But I think it's just maybe evolving over time just to understand, okay, these are things that I want, these are things that I don't want.

And understanding like you're saying, what I'm gonna compromise on. It's been seven years, and I think it was just something that just kind of came up and just ready to explore a different phase in my life now. I love that. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and I'm someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class.

My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing

and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts. Amanda, have you seen that shift? This is the first time I've ever heard it from Craig. I've heard you kind of dance around it. It's wanting to have someone more consistently in your life.

I mean, you have so much to offer, Craig. It's just crazy. You're just such a beautiful person and you're so full of love and you're so generous and you're always looking at the best side of everyone. You know, there's people who always look to be offended and there's people who you would have to really go out

of your way to offend them. And it's just because they have like this security of a tree trunk. That's what I feel about you, Craig. And it's just because they have like the security of a tree trunk. That's what I feel about you, Craig. And I'm just so excited for you. And I just want for you to have what you want. Because there's a billion people that go fall in love with you. And you're so good at making people happy that it would be easy for you to sign up for any of those relationships. Because you're an easygoing, really adaptable guy. And so when I think about it, I'm just like, what I would love is for you to be like, no, I want that. Because it's going to be really hard for you to say over and over not that, not that, not that because you're going to have a thousand opportunities.

I just want for you what you really most want. I appreciate that. And I think in the past, I was a people pleaser and I've kind of evolved to not. And so I feel like I'm the one that's the bad guy for for ending things, you know. But I feel like it's also healthy for me to do that as early as possible if something doesn't feel right. One of the ways that I think it's helpful to know, am I breaking up with this person for the right reason is to get really clear on what you want. And so do you have a vision for what you want your life to be like, you know, kind of paying a picture for me of how

are they integrated with your family? What are you doing on a Sunday? What does that look like? Yeah, I mean, I feel like this person would be integrated in as much as my life, whether it's going to soccer games for the kids or holidays. Obviously, there's a dynamic with their family as well. There's that kind of variable. But yeah, I think this person is gonna be

at family dinners, that kind of stuff. I think that's what it should be. There should be integration as much as possible. And who are you around this person? Like, whether we're talking about the person you're dating now or the person you wanna end up with, which side of Craig do you get to be in the relationship? That's a great question.

I wanna be my goofy self. I wanna be goofy, I wanna be fun. If we say on a Saturday morning, if we wanna go hiking and just go or go to the beach, I want this person just to be always up for anything. Because that's how I am. If there's something fun we want to do or who would want to relax, like kind of be a natural flowing into the into life. It's not going to be resistant and pushing back and say, no, I don't do that on this day. So I think they're just going to be easy to be with. And that's, that's how I am.

Yeah, I love that because I think I'm a people pleaser. Many of us are people pleasers and part of that is being good at being a chameleon. And so maybe it's a part of yourself that you admire. Oh, I can be in any situation in a certain way. But what that can sometimes mean in relationship is that you wind up with somebody who's sort of dominating the relationship and you always end up doing what they want to do because you're flexible and you can fit in. And it sounds like what would make you really happy is somebody who can match that flexibility

and who really is less rigid, is spontaneous, and really wants to soak up all the juiciness of life with you. And so when you're thinking about your relationships, I think it's not about, do I end it because of this small thing, but is this a person who can be my teammate and who I can see myself living the life that I wanna live with them? Sure, and I think you hit on the point of another pattern

is as I have typically gone for somebody who has been dominant, type A, dominant, roll with that person's plans. And I think I'm at a point now where I'm like, I want to try something different, you know, try something different, or maybe I can be the one to like, to plan, to come up with things. And obviously that person has a, it has a equal say in everything, but the person will be flexible in whatever we do. And just like joyous, you know, happy and spontaneous and empathetic.

What I see for you with Craig 2.0 is you taking up more space in a relationship and you really being like, I am bringing what I want to to this relationship. I'm going to come up with this plan for the weekend. I'm going to suggest this thing and it's like somebody who celebrates when you are in your full power and when you step into that versus somebody who's threatened by that. And that's the kind of thing that you can test in early dating. You know, if they want to do something and you want to do something else, do you feel like you sometimes get your way?

Do you feel like they welcome some conflict or do they shame you for it? And so really paying attention to when I'm the crag that I want to be, do they celebrate that or are they threatened by it? That's something that I've been focusing more on the last six or seven months or so, it's just being more direct with my feelings. That's something that I've had to work on that I was. Totally. I didn't inherit that no fault to my parents. They just didn't grow up with that model to them. It wasn't passed down and so through obviously therapy and a lot of things

the last 10 years learning how to be vulnerable and expressing myself. And I'm still working on it. I realize there's times even dating the last couple of years where I could have done it better. But just recognizing that that's something that I have to work on and trying to be more direct has helped me, I think, just set intentions and plan and be that person. I'd love to do one exercise with you, Craig, if you're gay, and so will you close your eyes? Okay. And it's a year from now.

And I want you to imagine that you are with the love of your life and you're so happy and you spend the weekends doing spontaneous things and you play beach volleyball and you cook a new recipe and your kids are all around you and you have this beautiful family around you. Okay, do you have this image in your head? What did you do during the previous year to get to that point?

What are the actions that you took? What are the patterns that you broke? I feel like to get there, I have to be super intentional with what I want and also what this person wants as well and make sure that we have this common goal to get there. I have to be direct with my feelings. I have to kind of plan things

and have not only a short-term goal, but I would think a long-term goal of what that means not only a year from now, but five, 10 years from now. And just having the integration of the kids, even Glenn and Abby, everybody that's involved to get there because I think that's a super important part of it as well.

I love that. Okay, open your eyes. That was beautiful. I feel like you just made your coaching plan for yourself. You know what you need to do. You really have grown so much, I think, since you started dating, and it's like you actually have the plan

for what needs to happen, which is intentionality, openness, honesty, and it's just about in those micro moments, saying, am I gonna say how I really feel or am I gonna go with the flow? Am I gonna be the chameleon or am I gonna be a Craig? And I really feel like in a year, you can get to where you wanna go, as long as you're making that daily choice to be authentic

and intentional. I have a question just broadly for both of you. Like, what is dating like while having this kind of ecosystem of co-parenting. I'm just curious what Logan, if you have any research on that and Craig of what your experience is like, because I would think it would be super intimidating or come with a little extra frothy something to know that the person that you're dating

has another person in their lives that they have a very intense history with and a very intense current bond with. And that's before you've been get to the like children and all of that. What is that like? I think it depends on the person in their situation. It probably wasn't intimidating for that person

to see this part of my co-parenting life, right? And I think it probably wasn't intimidating for that person to see this part of my co-parenting life, right? And I think it probably wasn't intimidating. I think that person would probably have to have confidence and understanding that it's not like there's physical feelings anymore, but it's just we have this really tight friendship and this person is going to have to integrate into it probably no matter what. And you're going to have to be open-minded when you come into it And I think it might even be more intimidating for

Somebody that I'm dating who doesn't have kids who doesn't maybe understand spending time with my kids spending time with my you know ex-wife and her wife that's probably really intimidating um I don't know and I think that's it just probably goes back to communication and just saying, this is part of how I see my life and I hope you can integrate into it and we can do it slowly. Introducing to the kids is different now because they're much older than it was when they were younger. Seven years ago, I would consciously wait because I felt like if I introduce somebody to the kids this early and things don't go well, it's like I'm gonna be breaking this person's heart,

my kids heart, but now I feel like it's the opposite. I feel like I want this person to meet my kids because the kids are a good barometer of things. If they just don't get along, if there's not effort, then I can't be a fit, can't be a match. So I think there's a couple of good. Haven't they dropped the hammer before? What's the hammer?

They dropped the hammer once. They did. Yes. And I respect that. I respect their when they dropped the hammer on that one person. Did you and they did it? And never they just gave you feedback about an interaction. Did that feel like new information for you or when they told you that? Were you like, uh, some part of me kind of knew that?

Yeah. I mean, I think it was that. I think it was both. I think when I was in the relationship, you know, sometimes when you're in it, you don't see other things outside that are happening, right? So I think the way I do know it, I'm talking about it. So looking back on it now, it makes sense,

but at the time I was like, huh, okay, and I had to kind of step back a little bit and just get their perspective on it. So I think it was a little bit of both. It was new information, but I also realized it was a part of me that was probably maybe shielding that part of what I should have been paying attention to.

Do you look and see this co-parenting phenomenon in your research and is it different if it is a woman coming into a relationship like Craig would be dating a woman who would come into this unit versus a woman who has this phenomenon and she's looking for a man to join her ecosystem. Like what do you usually see there? Yeah, I think the reality is that dating when you're co-parenting is obviously more complicated, right? They're not just dating you, they're dating your ex and they're dating your kids and you have a more complicated life for them to fit into.

So that's the reality. But there's also some positives to it. So for example, as you said, you know, your kids are sort of a litmus test. Do they get along with this person? You also probably take your time more seriously and are probably better at judging people from the beginning because maybe somebody else is dating somebody for a while and not really facing the reality of it not working. But for you, you're like, if this person isn't a good fit with my family, then I need to

move on. And so it's like, if we're all puzzle pieces looking for another puzzle piece to fit into, your puzzle piece just has more edges, which can make it harder to find that matching piece, but it also means that when you match, you are even more connected because there's all these different parts that fit together. And so when you do find that perfect puzzle piece match, it's going to be such an integrated, tight, long lasting bond. I like that.

And for you in particular with that Craig because you have a couple high profile people that are your co-parent people and there's a lot of people who know you, is that strange? Does it add something? And do people know you like when you were on the online sites? Do people know who you are when they're matching? Yeah, I had the same question because you mentioned your ex on your hint pro-fomelike. Do people know who this ex is? There's some interesting stories. So I initially would just assume that this person didn't know me or or or Glen or anybody.

But there were times where I would I remember I went on this one day when I think when I first moved out here and the person just pretended they didn't know. And at the end of the day, I went and I virtually looked this person up and this person was already following the linen. So I felt like I had wasted an hour and a half at dinner explaining everything in my story when this person already knows.

And so if this person's already lying in the first date, I'm not gonna talk to this person again. I would rather somebody just say, and there's been plenty of people that said, just let you know already know your story, but I just wanna hear it from you. And I appreciate that. I just appreciate honesty.

I just appreciate somebody just telling me. There's been instances where somebody doesn't know me or Glenin and that's great too, because it's just like getting to know all of us as we are today, versus whatever it was years ago. So, but yeah, there's been times where I'm like, oh, if you we are today versus, you know, whatever it was years ago. So, but yeah, there's been times where I'm like, oh, if you just would have said that you knew me or knew of me or knew her, it would just make things a little bit more. This is more honest. Can you Logan share your wardrobe test because I feel like

Craig sometimes that I have known when relationships you've kind of been deciding, okay, it's fine, it's good, it's good. There's nothing bad happening here, but like you kind of have that little itchy, and I'm not talking about your current one, because I haven't talked to you about this one in the last three months. But in the past, where you've been struggling with, do I stare, do I go? What's happening here? And Logan has a little test. Yeah, okay. Okay, if you're going to play along, you have to give me your gut reaction to this question. Do I stay or do I go? What's happening here? And Logan has a little test. Yeah, okay. Oh, okay. If you're gonna play along, you have to give me your gut reaction to this question. So

if the person that you're dating were a piece of clothing in your closet, so something that you own, what piece of clothing would they be? Oh, hoodie. Great. Tell me why. That was definitive. I love that. Because I feel like a hoodie, it's a comforting thing. Great. Tell me why. That was definitive. I love that. Because I feel like a hoodie, it's a comforting thing. I love hoodies. And I feel like it's just something when I want to be like cozy, when I want to be, I want to be kind of like casual, but comfortable.

I love that. I know hoodies, maybe something like if you wake up in the morning, it's the thing you grab, right? Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. We can go morning, it's the thing you grab, right? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. We can go with a lot of different, you know, jeans or shorts. I walk the dog in my hoodie when I feel like it's like my go to in the morning. I love that. You can be spontaneous in a hoodie. Yeah.

I love the wardrobe test question because when I'm talking to people about if they should say or if they should go, they can get very in their head. Well, our families get along so well and we already have this trip plan for later this summer and they start to really intellectualize it. And so I use this test to kind of get somebody's gut reaction and get them back into their heart and how they feel. And I've heard the craziest responses. So I've heard my boyfriend is a ratty t-shirt that I wear to the gym, but I hope nobody sees me. Or my boyfriend is the little black dress that I know I look good in, but is actually too tight and I don't feel comfortable in it. Or really beautiful answers. Like, my boyfriend is my favorite pair of pants that he chose for me,

but I wouldn't have chosen for myself. But I feel like your answer is such a healthy one because it represents comfort, authenticity, spontaneity, and it's really something that you would consistently choose. I'm glad you like my answer. Yeah, I'm glad you like my hoodie. I would love to because you have done this online dating thing for low so many years, Craig, but I never once participated in this. And Logan not only has your hinge formerly up profile, But she also has these five top line takes for online dating, which I think would be very helpful for our audience to hear about.

So first of all, do you have any reactions to Craig's profile, Logan, knowing what you have heard from him, if he were to ever get back on the scene? Does it accurately represent him to the world? Yes. Craig, with your permission, I'll do a little profile take down, tell you what I liked and areas for opportunity. I think your pictures were really great.

You had a lot of pictures that are clear headshots, show us who you are, what you look like. I felt like I understood what you look like in meeting you today. It's very consistent. There was also a great photo of you playing beach volleyball. So that's like the full body shot that people are looking for. And it was also an activity of you doing something that you love.

So those are all things that in our hinge research are important. You also showed your sense of humor. There was a really cute one that said, are you a dog person because? And then a cute picture of you and your dog. So I love photo captions and kind of a way to to bring humor there. A couple things that I would shift. So in your prompt responses, so for people who aren't familiar with hinge,

it's basically these icebreaker questions that you have responses to. I felt like a lot of your responses were about what you were looking for in another person, which is great, but what I want to get from somebody's profile is three things. What they're like, what kind of person they're looking for, and what it would be like to date them. And so a good way to get that on your profile is to basically think of all the prompts who can respond to as a menu and then choose from the menu, different prompts that will

really help you tell those different things. So for example, for the what dating you would be like, there's one that's my typical Sunday. So that's a great way to talk about, you know, is your Sunday starting with Barry's boot camp in a smoothie or is it starting with lying in bed all day watching Netflix and really paint a picture for somebody of what your life is like and making a slide, do I want to live that life with that person? And then for talking about yourself, I really love the prompt to truths and a lie. First of all, people, it's for engaging.

People always want to know, this one's the lie. You're a twin, not a triplet, but it's a nice way to talk about different sides of yourself. And then for the one about what you're looking for, there's a great one about, I'll be ready to delete the app when or green flags I look for and you can talk about some of the things you brought up. So somebody who's opened, somebody who's emotionally intelligent. And so I think really thinking about a profile is your billboard and your chance to get some messages across will help people be more intentional about really making sure that they use that space to tell their story and to really attract the kind of person that wants the same things they do.

That's very helpful. Thank you. Oh, I love that too, because it helps weed out the other people too, because someone's not just saying, okay, do I match what this person is looking for. It does double work of, is this person, the person that I'm looking for? in the person that I'm looking for. Yeah, this is a huge thing. I have a class where I teach people how to make their profile. A big thing that I talk about is, instead of trying to attract everyone, you should try to attract the person that's looking for the same thing you are. So we did this really cool experiment where we had 12,000 people in this experiment.

And some people put on their profile that what they were looking for was a serious long-term relationship. And some people put that what they were looking for was somebody who was kind and open-minded. So one is more vague and one's really specific. And what we found is that if you are looking for a relationship and somebody put on their profile that they're looking for a relationship, you're 17% more likely to message them, because you have aligned intentions. But perhaps even better, if you're not looking for a relationship and you know somebody is, you're 10% less likely to message them.

And so people are dating and they want to weed out the people that are not looking for the same thing, hooding on your profile, what you want, is a really, really efficient way to do that. It's like you actually do want to have certain people swipe that I have no idea what these things are. You want some people to qualify. Yes, you want that because it makes more likely the people you interact with to be qualified.

That reminds me of your beige flag situation. Can you please talk about the beige flag? Okay. We know what a red flag is. We know what a green flag is. What is a beige flag? A beige flag is something on somebody's profile that just is a cliche and means that they fade into the background. So, commonly, shades on hinge profiles are, I'm most competitive about everything or the dreaded

picture of the man holding up the dead fish. And basically, at best, you fade into the background and at worst, people disqualify you because they feel like this is a cliche. And so what I try to help people do is move away from beige flags and instead get really, really specific. There's a rule in writing and in humor which is the specific is universal. And so you might think if I want to attract a lot of people,

I'll talk about my love of traveling and cooking. Nope, nobody's gonna even notice that. But if you talk about how you don't know how to ride a bike, let me tell you, so many people will message you and be like, on our first date, I mean, it's teach you how to ride a bike. So the more specific you can be, actually the more attracted people will feel to you.

I love it. Again, we are not trying to get the most number of people to love us. We're trying to get the right person to love us. Yeah. Okay, this whole thing of the timing of when to love us. We're trying to get the right person to love it. Yeah. Okay. This whole thing of the timing of when to get offline, get in real life. Can you talk about that in the fantasy situation? Yeah. So a lot of people they meet on the apps and they're like, well, I need to talk to this

person for a long time to figure out, do I want to meet up with them? And it's such a big investment to meet up. And what they do is they really delay and sometimes they risk becoming pen pals. It's just somebody that you're messaging with, but you don't actually meet up. And what we found is that there's actually the sweet spot of after three to five days of chatting, that's a really good time to say, hey, I'm really enjoying getting to know you. Let's see if we have as much chemistry in person as we do over text or I'm going to check out this new tapest place this weekend. Do you want to meet up with me? And so it's really critical to shift from online to offline to see

not do I like the way you text, but do I like being around you? And I mean, I think what you're referring to as I have this concept called the Monet effect, which is that when we don't have a lot of information, our brains fill in the gap in a positive way. So if I just know, you know, I'm looking at Craig's profile, I'm like, okay, he's fit, he likes his dogs. I know a few things about him. Suddenly, my brain fills in the gaps and I start creating a fantasy of him in my head. And the longer we go before we meet up, the more that fantasy grows. And so even if I meet up with him, and he's great as he is, because he doesn't meet this fantasy I created,

I'm inevitably disappointed. And so instead of creating that fantasy in your head, meet up with the person as soon as possible, or do a video chat with them, but meet the real them, not the version of them that you've created in your head. Oh my God, it's exactly like Zillow. You know how if there's a house and it's like coming soon, but you don't see all the pictures,

but then you see the one picture and you're imagining, oh, this is what the bedroom looks like, this is the bathroom. And you go see the house. It's a fine house, but you're like, but I have a house planned. Dating is a lot like real estate, sadly. Yeah. Yeah. I'm here. And you've already told us, don't post what you're not looking for. We post what we are looking for. Ages, talk about ages when people put their minimums and maximums on the dating app. Yeah, so one thing about modern dating

is that it is very different from a bar. So if you walk into a bar and you look at different people and you think about who you're attracted to and you start a conversation with them, you do not know how old they are, you do not know what they do for a living, you have not seen a picture of them in six different settings. You're just meeting them as they are and seeing, do I enjoy being around you? But with the apps, it's like there's a bouncer at the front of the club and they're saying, this is who gets in and this is who doesn't. And so when you set your filters for things like age, maybe you're saying, okay, I'm only

going to date people who are 32 to 42. Even though maybe there's somebody who's younger than that or older than that, then you would have been a good fit with. And if you'd met them out and about at a bar, you might have clicked with. And so I really encourage people to expand their filters. So subtract a little bit from the minimum age, add a little bit to the maximum age, open your geographic radius. It's not that you're gonna date someone from all over the world,

but if you really are more open-minded about who you're able to see, then you have the chance to click with more people versus if you keep it really, really narrow, there's probably so many amazing people that you would have had a great relationship with, but they're not even showing up in your app because your bouncer has kicked them out. So there's this whole thing of the older men with the younger women and I rarely see younger dudes with older women. What ages? We can cut this if you want. But what ages did you have?

Let's talk. Mr. Craig Melton, would you did your profiles online? Oh, so what were my parameters? Yeah. I would definitely change it now, but I had mindset for I'd say 28 to 48. There's a wide range. Oh, so you did, you didn't cut it to below your age. All right. And how many of you changed that? How many of you changed that? It seems a little low.

It is. Yeah, it is. It is. But it seems a little low loaded this dog over here. This is what I've always wondered. How the hell do we know? What percentage of people that are on these online sites are either not real or they're kind of scamming because they're married or they're unavailable and they're just there to kind of be.

This is doing something for them on some level, but they're never actually going to be authentically in a relationship. How many of them are there and how can you spot them so that you don't actually engage with these people? I don't have stats around that, but I think video chats are a great solution to the problem. So if you feel like something is off or the person is not who they say they are, it's definitely appropriate and modern dating to say, hey, I'd love to give you a tour of my house or introduce you to my cat, Mr. Snuggles.

Let's hop on a video call. And I think when you just add that more information of, I have your voice, I have what you look like. You're seeing me. I'm seeing you. It's more of a human connection. I think that really helps people cut through some of that confusion and just say, like, are we a good fit? And is this person the person that they portrayed on an app? I'll also say if I ever get back into dating online, I would 100% do the video chat because I've been on first dates where it didn't match. The chemistry wasn't there.

And I feel like a five, 10 minute just casual chat, you would have gotten to that. You would have known that right away. So I would highly recommend a video chat. Yeah, I think that's another great thing that came out of the pandemic is prior to the pandemic. When people would tell me about video chats, I'm like, nope, I don't like it. You're turning into a recruiter who's doing a phone screen to hire somebody for role of spouse, forget it to corporate. But during the pandemic, that was really the only

safe way to date for a while. And so the stigma around it has mostly gone away. And I think people are spending a lot more time face timing in general. Why not just send them a little typo and be like, oops, I suck at typing. Let's just talk live or just find a cute little transition to get there. And I think having that sense of somebody's voice, somebody's sense of humor, do you have banter? You're saving so much time. And so I want people to move away from this idea

of, I need to chat for a long time over texting on the app to then decide if we should meet up to, I want to meet up with them or video chat with them as quickly as possible to decide, is it somebody I want to invest in? Yes. Craig, in your most honest self, what do you feel like is the biggest issue or obstacle or fear that you like the greatest blessing if it happens, but I feel like

just introducing them to the kids and tickling and to my lifestyle and to sharing me with this part of it, I think is someone that's going to have to be confident and comfortable in themselves and understanding. And I'm not saying this person can't be involved in that as well, but there will be times when I'm at my kids games or I'm visiting college. There's things that I may not be able to bring them all the time. And so this person is just going to have to understand that, especially if let's say they don't have kids, they're not used to sharing themselves with somebody else, right?

I think that's probably a challenge that I'll have to navigate with. That's interesting that that's your biggest anxiety about this, which makes sense because that's the center of your life is your family. Do you find yourself subconsciously thinking, with Glen and Abby like this person? 100% like with this person work. Yeah, 100% Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean my Like at what level first date second date third date. Even if somebody is not

Co-parenting with them, they might even ask themselves Would glutton and abby like this person. Yeah. No, it's test for all of us. Yeah, I've thought about that for sure. Not first or second date. I think if if

I'm beginning to like this person and then see them in my life and my kids, I mean, there's all these different factors, right? So, yeah, of course, of course, that comes, that's something that I would think through for sure. I had a wonderful opening of a perspective on it. Theoretically, it should be like, who cares if Glendon I'll be like this person? It's Craig's person. Craig can't be like, well, is this person compatible with all of us? It should be Craig's person.

And if Craig wants this person, that should be the question. I actually like integrating them into Craig's vision of love because we are not single units that just move through the world. We're integrated. We have community. We have a life and something that brings Craig happiness is having a really integrated relationship with his ex-wife and her wife and having somebody who's around their kids. And so no, when somebody's gonna be with Craig, they're gonna be with the whole family. And so I think thinking about will they fit into my beautiful vision of a life is realistic. And so of course they should make you happy and your happiness is number one. But my guess is that the person who does that is someone who's going to really fit into

your rich integrated life. I have a few closing thoughts I'd love to just share with the pod squad around my advice for dating. So the first one is really know yourself. So do that relationship inventory. Look at your past patterns. Talk to your friends about why or single. People can take the three dating tendencies quiz on my website and see,

oh yeah, I am a maximizer. I'm always trying to trade up and I'm looking for the perfect person. And so the first piece is really owning who you are and figuring out what you want to change in the future. The second piece is dating like a scientist. So you might think you know what you want, but maybe you're wrong. And so date someone who's different from who you think you should be with. And maybe that's the person who makes you happy as long term. And then the third piece is after a date, take the post date eight, ask yourself those questions. What side of me did they bring out? Did I laugh around them? Do I feel energized

or de-energized and really train yourself to date to pay attention to who you are around that person and not just who they are on paper? Love it Logan. Thank you so much for your time Craig, Melton. Thank you for being so brave. Yeah, Craig. That's about to be true. Thank you for doing this. Thank you, Logan.

So exciting. I can't wait to see you end up with. They're going to be the luckiest, luckiest little bird. Thank you guys. It was great to meet you, Logan. Yeah, I'm so excited for you. It feels like there has been a big shift in the last six months, and I'm excited for that vision of yours

in a year to come true. Okay, everyone, if you haven't listened to the first episode, again, go back and do that with Logan, Abby, Glennon, and me, and again, Craig, thank you so much. Thank you, Logan, and we'll see you next time. Bye. Bye! If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things, first can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

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