We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Creativity, Chemistry & Claiming Your Joy

Episode Date: October 21, 2021

1. How Amanda’s breaking point—when her life felt like all “shoulds” and no “wants”—led to simple, concrete changes.  2. Why the labels put upon us early—the sporty one, the smart one, the artsy one—can shut us off from exploring other parts of ourselves. 3. How Glennon feels like Ben Affleck in Good Will Hunting—and why she wants Amanda to “go see about a girl.” 4. What the chemistry of fire has to teach us about how we can resurrect our Fun selves.   To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier or pay subscription starting at 1299 per month. Hello, loves. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Thank you for joining us. I think you're going to like this conversation we have today that's all about creativity. But first, I want to tell

you about something special. I want to tell you about some new writing and art that I am putting out into the world and how you can join me in launching it. We are about to launch this very exciting first ever virtual live event with me and Abby and Amanda to celebrate the launch of Get Untamed, the journal. So the story behind this journal is the first thing I've put out since Untamed. And after the Untamed extravaganza people kept asking me, well, that's great that you've got Untamed. How do we get Untamed? How do we break free from our cages? How do we find that person we were before the world told us who to be?

And this journal is my response to those questions. So like I always say, every life is an absolutely unrepeatable and unprecedented experiment. So I certainly don't have any answers for you, but I think in this journal, I'm pointing you towards the questions that will lead you to those answers that are already inside of you. So I'm really excited and proud of this journal. I think you're gonna love it.

It's really beautiful. And to celebrate all of that, we are asking you to come party with us. All right, at party, you know, how we party. We are celebrating this launch with an event. The event is on November 18th, and we are working with six black-owned independent local bookstores, and they all have special clearance to start shipping books early, so that they can land with you before the event. And if you register before the event,

but you can't be there live, you get to watch the event for 72 hours after. Okay, so if you wanna come, go to getuntamedjournal.com and RSVP, and we will see you there. All right, thank you for letting me tell you about that. Let's jump right into our conversation about creativity. Hi everybody, welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. We're just really grateful to you

for always coming back. I want to start today by talking to sister, Amanda, Flarety Doyle. Abby and I just talked and talked and talked the last episode about creativity. Well, I mean, I don't know if it was Abby and I. I was just wondering, you just, you and Anna. That's like, that's like how I used to say, John and I split a bottle of wine every night.

Yeah, I had half a glass. So that's a split. There you are lying. And Abby and I split the conversation. Okay. Not maybe not equally, but we did split it. And it was about creativity and Sister I just am

fascinated to talk to you about the role of creativity in your life because As your sister and now creative partner. I just always creative partner Yeah, always yeah, that's true But just we've come into a different realm recently because of creating this podcast together. I just want to hear about the role of creativity in your life and have you thought of yourself as a creative person and what does it look and feel like to you these days? I just want to hear all things sister.

Oh boy, okay. So, I am a creative person. I would not have led with that ever in my life because I think we accept labels on ourselves and kind of assume these little jerseys pretty early on about, you know, that's the sporty one. That's the smart one, that's the creative one, that's the artsy one. And I think we also give our kids those way too early and they kind of, we're trying to give them something that is their own things, they can feel good about themselves, but by definition, we're excluding the rest as if those are inapplicable. So it didn't occur to me that I was creative, but I am creative.

And I use it all the time. And I think listening to you to it occurred to me that we think of create, we think of creativity as this very specific lane, you know, as in there are creators and not creators. But we're all creating our lives, right? We're all doing that. And I didn't wanna interject because I was loving listening to you in the last episode, but the whole origin of creative and create

was always this creating something out of nothing, which is you both said that. And that was the actual real origin of it. It was always about, but it was exclusively for God. It was, it wasn't until like 500 years later, after it was originally used, that it was ever people were audacious enough to apply it to them, because it was about the creation of the world. It was just always about God creating the earth out of nothing. And in fact, the first person to use it was a Polish poet and to dare to say that artists,

that poets were creative and there was a huge backlash that it was like people can't be creative. Anyway, that's an aside, but I think it's interesting in the context of really anyone who's creating something out of nothing is creative. And for me, I've been thinking about it a lot in a much bigger picture because I'm kind of the opposite of a woo-woo person. And I feel like I'm kind of the opposite of a woo-woo person.

And I feel like I'm very pragmatic and creativity seems, creativity in life seems a very, like indulgent and not vital part of life. I think especially to a life that already seems overflowing, but recently I got to a very bad place, like a really low, bad place, and it occurred to me to my surprise that the most rational and pragmatic response

to that place ended up being something that feels a little bit woo-woo, and that felt ironic to me, but I think that I just wanna say it because they were such a response to the overwhelm episode that I think it dovetails with that. And it's just that everything in my life became duty. Like I just felt, and as I say it in past tense,

I'm still just, this is very, very newly freshly being thought through, but it's just like nothing wasn't a demand, nothing wasn't a duty, it's just everything was shud and nothing was wants and it just felt like even things that had been joys just became jobs, you know, like my kids and sex and even special events. They were just all like more things I had to do. And I didn't used to be that way. I just, I used to be, you know, full of wonder. And I was joyful and I was full of life. And, and all of that seemed to kind of go away for me.

And I realize that I am joyless because I'm all duty. And I don't have fun and I don't have joy because joy and fun are like an answer to something. Desire is an answer to something. And if you don't leave room and space in your life for the question, then you're never going to get to the answer, right? And then even joy and desire become not, they come become a obligation from you on you and obligation on you instead of a need from you. And so I began to resent all of those things because it just felt like just more things on my to-do list. And then I got like in a really bad place because I was like, well,

there's clearly something wrong with me, there's clearly something wrong with my relationship. There's clearly something wrong with all these things because all of this is dead inside of me. And I realized that I was not treating having a life as a priority of my life. And that's why I wasn't having it. And that is very logical. I could understand that that way. Like if there is no time and space and room for my life, then I am not going to have one. I'm not going to have a life force in me

if there is no room and space and air for a life force to emerge from me. And you're talking about life being different than life. So for me, what I'm hearing is that you're talking about the difference between adulting and humaning. Yeah, I'm talking about things like desire and curiosity and imagination and hopes and the difference between I should feel happy and I do feel happy. The difference between I should be wanting to have sex and I do want to have sex. Like the thing that is from you as opposed to being required of you.

Yes. And I, and I, for me, it's like fire. It's like the analogy is fire because I did once feel like my life was like I was fiery person. I was full of fire and I in chemistry, fire burns. When fuel meets heat and oxygen, you need heat and oxygen to turn fuel into fire. And I realize that I have that fuel in me. It's like I do have fuel in me for fun, and joy, and desire, and curiosity.

And I think we all do. But I think because of the way our lives are structured, mostly for women, we don't give those things heat, and we don't give those things air. And that is giving space and time for these things and allowing attention for them. And if you have no room or time in your life to live, you just won't.

And the truth is is that the world is fine with women not living. That's right. world is fine with women not living. And that means that we have to decide whether we want to live because not a damn person is going to require it of us because that is how the world turns. And so I just realized that when I started to think of it that way, I realized that there is just not any oxygen around my fuel and it's not burning. So I'm either

going to smolder with resentment and smolder with bitterness and be all smoking no fire, or I'm going to have to get some oxygen around my fuel. And either way, it's going to cost my life. Like either way, it's going to cost my relationships if I keep being smoldering, that is a price to my life. Or I could take the time to give it air. And that's going to be a cost to my life. But either way, it's going to need to happen. And I think the key thing for me has been like not viewing this as yet another duty that I'm failing to meet. Like not just another way I'm checked up, not just another way that I have a problem or my relationship has a problem or I haven't prioritized correctly, but it's just

that it's just that I have been doing the best that I can. And that best has been not making any fucking room to have these things in my life. And I'm just viewing them not as like a something I'm failing to make happen in my life, but as like a birthright that I want to reclaim. And so I'm taking back that room because I can either some of my time resenting the world for failing to ignite me, or I can make some time to give myself the heat and the air that I need,

because nobody else has the heat and the light to light up my life with me. Nobody does. That's so good. It's true. It's not like, I'm not trying to be like a mantra like nobody knows the heat. Like I'm literally true. I am I have looked around. Yeah, you have thought. And it is no buddies. It's literally no one can. It is it is it is my fire and it has to be my fuel, my air, my heat to make that burn.

And it's going to, it's gonna be smoldering and I'm gonna make everyone feel the smoke around me for my whole life or I'm gonna make it burn for myself but either way, either way it's gonna cost. So I'm just trying to make room for those things, because I just know that I have, I know I have it in me and I don't, and I don't wanna live without it.

Oh, Jesus. That was so fucking good. I know, it was so good. My eyes were watering, but it wasn't feeling emotional. It was just happening. I didn't even feel like that throw. It was just like tears, just building up. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things.

But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food and I was like, Girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know,

for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. get your podcasts.

Sister, I just, I don't have anything to say in reaction to that because you just said everything, but I did think of a, you'll be shocked to know that I did think of a poem. While you were speaking, and I just want to read this poem to all of our pod squatters. It's called The Journey by Mary Oliver. One day you finally knew what you had to do and began. Though the voices around you kept shouting their bad advice, though the whole house began to tremble and you felt the old tug at your ankles. Mend my life each voice cried, but you didn't stop. You knew what you had to do. Though the wind pried with its stiff fingers at the very foundations, though their melancholy was terrible, it was already late enough, and a wild night, and the road full of fallen branches and

stones, but little by little, as you left their voice behind. The stars began to burn through the sheet of clouds. And there was a new voice, which you slowly recognized as your own, that kept you company as you strode deeper and deeper into the world Determined to do the only thing you could do Determined to save the only life that you could save Mary Oliver What do you think this freaking looks like?

Not that that matters because just the recognizing of it is such a revolution. Do you have any inquiries about next-right things or how to make this be a revolution and not another freaking thing to add to people's to-do lists? Joy, 730 to 9pm. Like wake up at, you know, all the advice to women, like just get up earlier. Just like, you know, triple whatever, you know, how do we change our lives in a way that

lets us not just adult all day, but human without adding, but recreating. I think maybe it starts for me it was a big relief to realize instead of feeling ashamed that I didn't have joy or desire to recognize that of course I didn't because your life is full, there is no empty spaces for anything else. And when I just think it's important to this, there's so many of us that have lives that are very, very much overflowing, but don't have life running through them, right? That don't have where every hour is full, but you are empty. But you are empty. And I think that I just realized that I need to have the discipline to not fill every hour and every moment because that's not gonna give air for other things to grow.

And I, because I do believe that these things are in me. I know that I am full of life, I'm full of fire. I just can't ignite it because there is no space left. There's no room for that to take shape because I am suffocating it with every minute of my life, having other obligations. And if creativity, what you defined for us, and whether it's creativity, we're not talking anymore about making a peep ting, we're talking about making a life, worth living. If the definition of creativity is making something out of nothing,

if you have no nothing in your life every day, you cannot create. If you have no nothing, you will, by definition, never have creativity. You will only be living in reactivity to the world, right? That's the difference. Like creativity starts with nothing and makes something and reactivity asks,

what does the world need of me right now and gives it to it? Yes. I mean, in the actual research about creatives, the number one trait that they have in common is openness to experience. And if you don't have any room in your life that isn't booked with obligations, you don't have the capacity to be open to an experience. You are on one minute I belong here, the second minute I belong here,

and all the minutes in between my mental space is already accounted for, right? There is no openness when you're trying to get through that. And so I think that, and again, I feel like I had to reach a pretty bad place to say, okay, I'm gonna pay you their way for this. Yep, I love that. But I think one of the most important things that she did say, which I'm so, you know, sister, I feel like so emotional

about this for you because there's nobody that I feel outside of Glenin and my immediate family. Like, you are the most important person in my life. And I want a good life for you. I want you to be happy. And I think one of the hardest things is from like an individual's perspective, you are the only person that can learn this for your life. We could tell you all the things that work for us and all of that, but this shame that women harbor about not being

able to make a good life or a happy life or a joyful experience on earth for themselves, though it might not be your fault, it is your responsibility. And I think that that is one of the hardest things because that feels like a to-do list. Oh, I've got a responsibility now to have joy. It does sometimes feel like that's like another thing that we have to do, but that kind of responsibility is the right kind of responsibility. It's the right kind of hard that will, I think, unlock maybe some of the suffering that's you and so many women are experiencing in the world. It's beautiful. And I just feel like,

I mean, the response to the overwhelm episode, the response to the fun episode that we did. I mean, I read every single one of those comments and the number of people who said, I used to be so fun. I used to do, I used to love doing things. My kids say that I am no fun now, I agree with them. I can't even think of what I would do for fun. I can't even look at my husband because I'm so resentful that he enjoys his life and I have

nothing but obligations all day long. I mean, when I think about all that, I think When I think about all that, I think there, I've got to think that we didn't just all, our fun selves didn't just all die, right? There wasn't a mass extinction of fun selves on one day because of a meteor. It's because we found ourselves in this life where we are using our creativity to make something out of nothing, but we're doing it all for other people. We're doing, we are making something out of nothing because we're supposed to be picking up from three different practices at the exact same time.

Guess what? We're figuring that out. We're figuring out how to make the world spin, but we are not leaving any room. And I think that, I mean, for me, it was so reassuring because it's like, oh, I actually don't have to do anything. What I have to do is leave room because I am the fuel. I have the fuel.

Like what my fun self, my joy self, my part of me that used to want to make out, that used to have that desire saying that's not something I have to do, that's something I want to do. That is in me. All I have to do is give it air and heat. That's all I have to do. I don't have to figure a damn thing out. I have to give my life force room to breathe. I mean, fires an actual chemical event that is recurring on its damn own, right? You don't put a match in every single time.

You put a match in and then you give it the air and it keeps going. And that's what I believe is going to be true about me. I know what I am inside of me. And I know that if I structure my life in a way that once those flames are going, I get to have that life. Can I just mention one thing that I'm really emotional about because of this is just different than what you're saying Abby, is that it seems to me if I'm really emotional about because of this is just different than what you're

saying Abby, is that it seems to me, if I'm reading this right, that what has happened to you with this personal revolution is the exact same thing that happened to me at the beginning of my creative life, which is that I told the truth in writing form. You told the truth in podcast form. You had to bring your real self to these podcasts and you told the truth about your overwhelm. You told the truth about the lack of fun. And then you put it out in the world

and then you started reading all the people who saw your real self, the pod squatters who were writing back and saying, Oh my God, me to me to me to like you just said you read everything. And that's what I've always done. And that made you understand that this wasn't just a personal failing, but a huge, huge issue. And that is what has continued you on this personal revolution, which will probably change your life, which I don't know on any better story about art. And I, the cycle, this is what happens when we tell the truth.

And I think a key part of the cycle for me as a pragmatist is reckoning with the cost associated with not not being able to access those parts of me, because what I recognized in, I think there's a lot of people who, you know, could think of these things as frivolous or like self-indulgent. And what I'm here to say is that my experience of this situation is whatever the opposite of self-indulgent is.

I recognized in my body, in my relationship, like the resentment that I felt about not being able to have a life fire was so toxic and overwhelming that it was a dramatic cost. And that I had to either figure out what I was going to do about that, or it was going to be a very, very big problem for me.

That's when I realized that I require joy and desire and as coming from me and of me because I realized that that outcome on my life of not having it was poisoning my life. And so I think dear listeners that what we're saying here there could not be another person who's like more obsessed with productivity, efficiency than sister. Okay. What I am saying to you is that if sister is willing to admit that desire, enjoy, and fun are crucial to life. Then everyone else just needs to cave. Okay.

We are now entering it into we can do our thing lexicon of fact. This is just something we are all going to accept now. Well, we have to understand that until she Created the personal accountability and took back the power that this is on her that this is her life and Because it's so easy when we get into a marriage and we get into a family It is so easy to like point the finger outward. Well my husband or my wife They just have all the joy. They're the ones that are just galloping around their lives. Like, look at them, right? But the truth is

that that is on all of us personally. We have we have to go out and get fun. We have to go out and get joy. That's something that we have to create. Even if it's 10 minutes a day, do something for yourself every single day that is just for you. And that is how you start to build up your little pot of fire or fuel or air that you are needing that you're just not giving yourself right now. I think it's so freaking beautiful, Sissy. God. Wait, just wait those days.

Wait for, and this is the cool part too, is that women don't get to make margin or space without telling other people to fuck off in one way or another. So sweetly. Right, we're not, like actually saying, we're not, but like, I mean, or not. But like, there will be things that change. A reckoning. Like, there will be things that change. A reckoning. Like, there will be things that you don't do. There will be, I don't know what it's gonna be,

but I'm just saying, there's gonna be, as you say yes to yourself, there are going to have to be nose to other things. And so this belief of the whole world will fall apart if I don't blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There is like a measure of, I guess, we'll see how the world looks when it falls apart. I guess we'll see who else steps up.

Uh-huh, I guess. I guess we'll see how everybody does with 80% of the 100% good life they had before. Like I'm taking back my percentage. And if it means you kid, you kid, you husband, you sister have 80% of what I was giving you before, that's how it's gonna be.

And sister, you have permission to disappoint us, me personally, so as long as to not disappoint yourself in this situation, like you get to do that. And it's going to, a new world is going to get built and it's going to be more beautiful and more true around you. I know it. I, for many years, have been Ben Affleck, okay? I am Ben Affleck and goodwill hunting, okay? I am driving my car every day to your little house. With all the stuff in the yard, I am walking

up with my coffee. I am knocking on the door getting ready to take you to our construction job, okay? Knowing you're an effing genius, right? Knowing why the hell is she still in this freaking house? I'm just waiting. Do you know what gets me going every morning? It's just the five seconds before you answer the door. Just hoping that one day I'm gonna knock and you're not gonna be there. Okay? That... See, you're Matt Damon. We got it. We got it. So, what I want from you is,

Sister, I want to note, and I want the note to say, I want to see about a girl. Okay? And do you see where we're going? Because the girl is you. All right, I love you. I love you so much. Okay, let's just, I can't do questions.

I don't think we can do questions about art. I just want everyone to think about all of this forever. But I think the next right thing is gotta be write yourself a note or your people a note and just say, I gotta go see about a girl. Right. Or I went to see about a non-binary, I went to see about a boy, I went to see about whatever your gender is. Yeah. I went to see about me. Yeah. I went to see about a boy, I went to see about whatever your gender is. I went to see about me.

I went to see about me. That's good. Yes. Okay, let's just get to the pod squadder before we go because this has been really heavy and, you know, I just really love this person, Colleen. Okay, she wrote this in, I'm just going to read it. Colleen says, I think this is the perfect example of we can do hard things, but not the easy ones. I'm newer to podcast listening, but definitely

wanted to listen to this one. Loved the topics, loved the conversation, loved the weekly insights and aha moments, but hated how fast you guys spoke. So much so that I was thinking about sending that negative feedback. Until I realized that I was thinking about sending that negative feedback until I realized that I was listening on two-time speed.

Now it's perfect. Colleen, I want you to know that my friend, back in Naples, called me to tell me that it was ridiculous how I was speaking on the podcast that I never speak like that in real life. And she also was listening to it on two times. So Colleen, I am, you are not alone. And it reminds me of what we always say, sister, that quote of like before you decide you're depressed, make sure you're not surrounded by assholes. Before you decide your podcasters are speed talking, make sure you're not listening to it on two times. Is that how you say it? Two times? I think so. Okay.

Y'all, although I'm still definitely listening to everything on two times because if I'm gonna make time for my life, I'm definitely still listening to everything on top of all. A-N-N! A-N-N! That's good. All right, I'm gonna go see about a girl. I'm gonna go see about me.

I'm gonna go see about myself. Yeah, that's right. We love you. See you soon. Bye. We can do hard things is produced in partnership with cadence 13 Studios. We love you! See you soon! Bye! Bye! We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever

you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.