We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Cynthia Erivo — Wicked, Wild & Wise — is here!!!

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

At last, the brilliant force of nature, Cynthia Erivo, joins us for a deeply personal, mind-blowing, and heart-swelling conversation about dignity and belonging. We discuss:  - How to survive betrayal and learn to fully trust again;  - How to build a circle of people who will always get on the broom with you;  - How Cynthia chooses and prepares for roles like Elphaba—and why she doesn’t believe in method acting; and - How to find light, joy, and creativity in our darkest moments.  Hold onto your witch hats, Pod Squad. This conversation is a ride—and an offering. Enjoy.  About Cynthia:  Cynthia Erivo is a Grammy Emmy and Tony Award-winning actress, singer and producer. She burst onto West End and Broadway stages in THE COLOR PURPLE and has since taken the world by storm. Erivo most recently starred as Elphaba opposite Ariana Grande’s Glinda in Part 1 of the record-breaking film adaptation of the hit musical WICKED. WICKED: For Good is being released THIS WEEK on November 21st. And Erivo’s brand new book SIMPLY MORE is available today.   Follow We Can Do Hard Things on: Youtube — @wecandohardthingsshow   Instagram — @wecandohardthings TikTok — @wecandohardthingshow

Wicked fans everywhere know what Oz looks like. And now, for the first time ever, they'll know what Oz smells like because Gaines Wicked for Good Limited Edition laundry collection lets fans experience the magic and joy of Oz with every sniff. we can do hard things people today we have the elphaba herself cynthia orivo who i knew was going to be magic and i had absolutely no idea how mind-blowing and heart swelling and life-changing spending an hour with this force of nature is just hold on to your little witch hats because this is a ride Cynthia Arrivo is a Grammy Emmy and Tony Award-winning actress, singer and producer.

She burst onto West End in Broadway stages in the color purple, oh, silly, and has since taken the world by storm. Arrivo most recently starred as Elphaba opposite Ariana Grande's Glinda in part one of the record-breaking film adaptation of the hit musical, Wicked. Wicked Part 2 is being released this week on November 21st. Cynthia's brand new book, Simply More, which is such a beautiful offering to everyone who wants to know how she became as magic as she is, is available today. This conversation is surprisingly personal. She teaches us how she learned to trust, ask for help,

how she prepares and chooses roles, how she makes decisions in her life. This conversation is an offering. Enjoy. Thank you. Hello. Hello. How are you? Oh, we're so excited. We've just been laughing.

We've been just talking and laughing about how excited we are to meet you in real life right now. And you were just giggling about your book is so wonderful. And you were just giggling about this part in it that made it. that made us realize we have no self-respect at all and really, really just epitomizes your freaking elegance and self-respect, which is the fact that you get dressed up for bed. No, I do. So good. I do.

I do. I've been doing it for a long time. I just, I don't know, fashion sort of like has a through line in my whole entire life. And I, I don't know when, but I realize that if I feel really. good before bed. I don't know the evening just feels better. So I have like matching pajamas and sometimes it's like lounge wear that feels really good. And it's, well, there's always an outfit. There might be a robe to go with the pajamas. There's always a slipper that matches the pajamas and the robe. Yeah, it's a real thing. How early do you transition to this? Is it like I'm home for

the day? Now I'm getting into my. When I'm home for the day, there's like loungeware to be in. I cannot be in the clothes that I've been in the whole day when I'm home and I'm not going anywhere, but I don't get into my pajamas before that. So if I'm home late enough and I know the next thing I'm doing is going to bed, then it's pajamas immediately. But I pick the thing. I'd never just like, let's throw on these. It's never been that. So is it three outfits mainly a day? You're out, out in the world. I mean, it depends on the day. It really depends on the day. It depends on the day. Truly. If I'm just, me going to work, like, I'm on a set and I'm coming back, I dress up, even though I'm only wearing these clothes for the journey to the set and

then I'm putting on a costume and then coming. Wow, Cynthia. I don't know. I just, I just feel good, you know? If I start the day the way I want to start the day, then everything else sort of like follows after that. And if I come back and end the day how I want to end the day coming back to myself. I guess maybe that's what it is. Maybe finding the outfit and finding the thing that I want to wear to rest also is a way of like recentering, I think, you know, making a decision that's just for me. It doesn't matter if anyone sees it, you know? And it's like setting a boundary too. Yeah. It's like how it's like the, my friend says when she picks up her wine, which maybe this isn't the healthiest boundary, but that's her way of being like, it's,

fucking over. Like nobody, I am not responsible for anyone else. The day is done. I'm not leaving. Yeah. Cool. Amanda, tell Cynthia what you were wearing when you read that part in her book. Oh, it was like a personal intervention to me because I was reading the book and I was

wearing a sweatshirt and like offensively old like shorts. And I realized that I had been, that is what I wore the night before. for to bed and had been wearing it all day and was about to go to bed in the same thing. And then I'm, and, and I was like, you know the solve to doing that, finding something that feels similar and you just get multiple pairs of it. Okay. So the refresh is, there's always a refresh, but you know it's comfortable. I have like certain brands that I go and wear to bed and I just rinse, repeat.

I find the things that I like, I get them in several different colors and I know that, oh, this it feels really nice actually today I want to do I want the wide trousers actually I want the really like thin trousers or I want the long sleeve or it's the same brand but they it's the same it's like a uniform that I like to wear yeah yeah it reminded me of the book throughout the book where you're talking it's just so dignified it's such a self-respect thing to be like this matters not because I'm going out in the world but because I'm into myself that's right and that there is no big days or small days that like every it's a big moment because i'm here with me exactly exactly yeah yeah yeah i love that speaking of very big moments yes this is a big week so on this day today

your book simple more comes out and it is so beautiful it's so beautiful cynthia it's so beautiful thank you very much thank you it's very honest i i haven't really like um held anything back necessarily And I didn't, I don't know if that's what I intended when I started, but I think as I started, like, as the words came out, as I started figuring out things. And I think even this was sort of a discovery, oh, that's the thing I learned. So, and then it just became really raw and honest. So I'm, I'm so excited to, a little bit trepidation and scared, but I'm really excited to share it with people. And, you know, I've had some real sort of like bumps along the way and I've had to really learn some things about. the world about what I do and about me in the process

so to be able to share just even little kernels of it is really helpful can you hear my dog in the background yes those are one of your two pops I'm so excited it's wonderful can I may I have them come and

oh of course hold on give me two so they are wanting mama come on there you care Hi, baby. Okay. But you might hear them jingle and jangle.

They've just been wandering around, but she's sort of like, this is Gigi. The other one I was over there, who's Caleb, who, they're sort of sweet. They're with me a lot. They've been with me on days when it's really, really tough and they've been very, very helpful. Little spirits, so, yeah. How are they helpful to you? They've got very different personalities. Caleb is sort of his own entity.

He kind of wanders, kind of, he always does a reiki of a place. When I say a reiki, he like searches a place out, wants to know where it is. And then when he's done, he sort of just goes away and it's like, everything's safe. Gigi is like my shadow. She's currently right here. She just wants to be next to me. And she's, they're both very good at knowing when something is up or I'm not feeling very good because they come right next to me.

me. They come right to me. They just want to stay in the space. Yeah. They're both just really, on the, on days when I've been alone and I felt very lonely, these two little spirits have been very, very helpful. Yeah. Yeah. I always wonder if people who are well known in the world, beloved, ambitious, all the things, it feels like those people that are in my life have very special connections with their animals.

Yeah. And I always wonder if it's like, a singular being that the reason I love my dogs is because they're the only beings I know who love me more the less I do and the more still I am and the less I move around unless such I had never thought about it that way I've never thought about it that way and that is actually the truth the less I do the stiller I am the happier they are if I'm just that still and they can just lean or lounge on me happy. Very, very, very, she's literally just, this, Gigi is set right here doing absolutely nothing

and she is pleased as punch. She's like, still as anything. She looks like a little cartoon character set by me. It's like, and it's the same for the other one. If, if I'm, it's when I make too much noise and I'm moving around that he just, he does. Yeah. Exactly. I'm not mad.

disappointed yeah just that when will she say that's how we want to be loved right just for doing nothing just for being ourselves yeah they don't want anything when you become an empire unto yourself as you've become is it hard to find people who can mirror that kind of love because you're I mean I'm sure there's so many people are like you could do this why don't you do this everybody will make more money if you do this

Like, is it, is it hard to find that in people as opposed to animals? I think if I was to, I think if everything was to have happened now, it would be really difficult. I think because it's taken time, I've been really lucky in that I've picked up my people along the way. Those same people that I picked up along the way. Some are not there along the journey anymore, but those who are with me on the journey are still with me on the journey. So I could call my best friend and will still. he'll still cast me out if I'm doing something stupid. Do you know what I mean?

He'll ground. Right? And my best friend that I did a show with when I was in 2013 when absolutely nobody knew who I was. We will still call and cry over the phone and talk about everything. She's my, her daughter is my goddaughter. So, you know, I still have really good groundwork before coming into all of this. So, but I do think if it was now,

it'd be really hard I feel like I'm a good judge of character so I have picked up new friends along the way because I feel like people reveal themselves to me quite quickly I'm not sure why but it happens so I can know about a person really really fast

people tell me about themselves very very fast and I'm you know I I try to honour that because I something about me makes people feel comfortable enough to share themselves so I try to hold that but I also know when people aren't right for me quite quickly. Yeah. How do you decide who to trust?

I don't know. It's a feeling. I think it's just a feeling. And sometimes, sometimes I'm not necessarily in the place to trust anyone. And so there's definitely moments where it's just like, everyone's day over there. I'm going to be over here. There are other times when it feels really easy, you know? Yeah, I think people reveal themselves unknowingly. And so those people, people I can always spot those who were just like I just want to be there for you you know yeah your book is coming out today yes a wicked part two is coming on Friday this is okay so my daughter was alpha buffer Halloween is obsessed we have been listening to the soundtrack just trying to derive meaning and put symbols together and this song is this and she she is it is like a total

immersion program for her and i can imagine that that is happening all over the globe right now so i wonder for you like what does it feel like in this moment in this particular universe we're in where everything is everyone is in need of a lot of influence and a lot of meaning and everything to be in that position where you are about to influence the world in such a grand way. What does that feel like in your body to know that that is happening? I think part of me is shutting the immensity out a little bit so that I can manage it as it comes, you know? Because I'm really moved by how much people have connected with, this this character these characters this music those words um but if i if i took on the whole

thing i don't think i'd be able to really function very well so i take it on them like bite size i think my favorite moments are when i meet an individual who says this means this to me or i listen to this song when i'm feeling really down or i listen to this song to get myself hyped up or you know that then i can take it in pieces and then i can really appreciate in the moment what's going on you know yeah i think that's what helpful well i'll tell you one little story of my wicked story um we have a mutual friend levi ajai jones she's a yes i love her i love her that's my big sister oh i she's uh been my dear friend for a very long time too and like real life friend not just like you know interwebs friends yeah and we've done a lot of um racial

justice organizing work together and usually levy gets puts me in charge of the white ladies so that's an exciting time for me she's smart she's like i'm not going anywhere near those people she says they're going to ask to talk to the manager and you are the manager um so we've been through a lot of that kind of work together yeah and when i saw wicked in the theaters with my family I saw it, you know, we see things as we are and I saw it as an incredible story about patriarchy and fascism and women who bind together and the limitations when black women and white women try to work together and how white women often are on board until their proximity to power is threatened and they choose the empire above.

So I left the theater crying, and my first text was to Lovie, and I didn't explain any context of where I was. I just said, I will always get on the broom with you. Did she know? Did she get it immediately? Immediately. Immediately. Immediately.

She got it immediately. I know she got it immediately. Yeah, that's her. Does that, is that how you see wicked? Is that how everyone sees wicked? Like, what it? What is it about to you? Some people see it like that.

Some people don't see it at all. Some people see the friendship and how they've been tested and how they have different things to do or they have different decisions to make. Some people see it as a betrayal because she doesn't get on the broom, but some people see it as a decision that she has to make because that's the way she can do good

or believes she can do good. Or some people see it as a seduction of, what could be or something that she's always wanted, now it's in front of her, and she has to decide whether or not to leave it behind and just chooses to leave her friend and go with power. And I think I can see all of that.

Especially as the person who's playing the character, I can see how difficult it would be for Glinda to choose her and go on the broom. But I can also feel what a betrayal is when she doesn't. but I can also go maybe she's just not, people aren't ready when you want them to be ready sometimes it takes a long time for a person to go

actually I think it's time for me to get on the broom, I think it's time for me to go. It takes time for people to get to that decision. We don't always reach the same place at the same time and so there's no blame in that. It's just

as human beings and entities we our journeys are different. We get to the same destination at very different times, you know, if we get to the same destination at all, you know? So generous and beautiful. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard Things for free.

Gain is sponsoring this episode of We Can Do Hard Things, and Gain is on a mission to spread the joy of scent. They believe that good smelling laundry can make a mundane task more delight. And why not? If you are doing the important but not always thrilling task of laundry, why not fill your space with good scents and good vibes at the same time? Because when you smell something good, you feel good. Okay, Glenn and Abby's speed round question, what are your favorite scents?

I love the smell of my kids' heads. They're here. That is like home base for me. Yeah. Even when it's like a little gross. Also, all things Christmas or holidays. Facts for you. Pies baking and like pine needles and cinnamon, which these are all just represented for me in candles because I'm not actually doing any of those things.

But candles that represent people cooking at Christmas. That's good. Do you want to know mine? Please tell us yours. Okay. Fire burning over a campsite fire, like the anticipations. for potential s'mores. It feels exciting. And then jasmine blossoming. I love the smell of Jasmine. Susie, what about you? Okay, mine are coffee, salt air, and whatever the scent is of freshly

cleaned floors when I walk into my house. And I think it's because coffee reminds me of the will to live. And salt air transports me to my happy place. And clean floors tell me the house is sparkling and all I have to do is relax. Have you noticed that, like our favorite sense, people's most popular favorite sense fall into certain categories, from nature like rose or citrus or pine, food like chocolate or bread, or everyday comfort sense like baby powder and clean laundry? And that is why Gain wants you to experience the magic of scent with their new Gain Wicked for Good collection that lets fans get scent to our fans get scent to our.

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Usually I'm not that girl. See what I did that. But I really love the smell of the wonderfulest woods and the beautifical blossom beads. They, it just makes me so happy. It brings this touch of Oz right into our house. And we love Wicked. So we, we love Oz in our home. And we want to thank Gain for supporting our show and spreading the joy of scent.

We love Gain and we love Oz. I was going to ask about, I mean, your journey and your generosity is profound throughout your whole book. And one of the very generous pieces that must have been so difficult for you is your journey with your father and kind of coming to terms with that, the way that shaped kind of your life in many ways. Can you just, are you willing to. tell us a little bit of that story on the tube platform and just what it kind of how you think how you kind of deconstructed that role throughout your life when you look back on it. I think so what happened was my father I had gone to pick up a travel card. We call it a travel card here. It would call beer metro card from him at a tube station. We hadn't really

ever really been permanently in each other's lives. My mom really did give me the space to want to get to know my father and him the space to get, want to get to know me. And it was never really, the opportunity was never really taken, except for very occasionally. And he, one of the things that he would do was help us get a travel card to and from school. So we'd get a travel card. It would last the month and we'd be able to make our way to and from school. At this point, I was at, uh, in secondary school, I want to say, just coming into, sixth form is the bit before college and I meet him at the station and he just decides he doesn't want to anymore. So I'm confused so I ask why and at this point as a 16 year old

I don't really have I'm not in possession of me not being getting angry. I'm I don't know how to not do that. So I lose my shit at the train station. I was like, this one thing that you have to do, and I don't understand why we're having this conversation right now. I remember the ticket office guy gets involved and says, you shouldn't talk to your father like that. And I was like, you need to be quiet.

There's nothing to do with you. You have no idea what is happening here. I don't understand why this is happening. You need to get this, because this is the one thing you do. All of this goes on. We go back and forth. And then he decides, I'll get the travel. cards, but I never want to see you again.

He gets the travel cards and goes off in the other direction. And I, I'm in shock. Like, it, like, I don't think I realized I would be in shock, but I was in shock. And I didn't realize it would hurt as much, and it did hurt. I go to get on the train. And because I'm, like, in a daze, in tears, I go in the wrong direction. So I turn around to go in the other direction. He's coming in, I spot him coming in towards me.

and he passes me by like he's never met before. That is the last time we had had a conversation. We have seen each other twice since then at a wedding, and we have not spoken. Two different weddings, two different times. One when I was 25, the last one I was, I think 35, strangely enough, and we haven't spoken since then. And what I recognised, as I've gone back,

is that from that moment on, I think I was trying to prove that I was worthy of being loved or trying to prove one day you'll see that you've made a mistake. But that doesn't sustain. Yeah. After a right, it doesn't sustain, it doesn't work. And you build up a sort of resentment that starts to color the things you do. And I felt really closed off.

And so I, I think the first time I did any kind of therapy was probably when I was about 20, I want to say 26 or 27. The first time I did some therapy, when I sort of realized that that had been a color in my life. And the way I was treating other people was as if they were going to leave. So I wouldn't really, I'd never ask for help. I wouldn't.

I would do most things on my own because I was sure that someone was going to, leave. And so instead of trusting that someone might be around and want to help, I would push people away immediately and just, I'll do it myself. I don't need anyone to do this for me. Much of my life has been me getting things and doing things on my own. Now, whilst there's been a really wonderful character building thing in that, and it means that I've grown in independence, it meant that my trust of people was, was lacking. And I didn't have much.

And I lost the ability to ask for help. And so when I get to this sort of inflection point during the colour purple, I'm sort of drowning in all the things that are happening because it happens really fast. The colour purple happens. And all of a sudden there's loads of things to do. and I have no idea how to do it on my own and I have no help. It takes someone in the show,

I think it was my director, who was like, you need help. You need an assistant. You cannot do this on your own. You cannot remember all these dates. You can't remember where you're going. You're going to show up late to everything if you're not careful.

You're going to miss things. You need help. I really didn't know how to do that because I was sure I could just do it on my own. and at that point I thought I really have to figure out why it's so hard for me to ask because I just never I never did I really didn't ask for help very often at all

I would be happy to help other people I just wouldn't accept a lot of help myself so as time went on and I started decoding and unpicking that thread that was going through my life, I had to relearn how to be a little more open to getting help. And sometimes, and also knowing that not everyone is going to abandon you, and also that if someone

leaves, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are abandoning you. Sometimes it's necessarily for them to leave. That that isn't an offence to you personally, that it is just another part of their journey and another part of yours and it doesn't mean that that's what everyone else will do you know i've had it's lots of learning lots of that's so interesting that's how you just described that elf of a glinda situation correct yeah that's how you're seeing things now which is how i see yeah yeah that's so interesting do you think that you're one of the things i love so much about your book is just your daily commitment to be seen even if it means no props on an audition stage even if it means no hair so that people can see your face yeah that's

probably why people reveal themselves to you because you are so revealing of yourself to them do you think that has any mirror to that subway moment where you're not being seen i i'm sure it does i'm sure it does i'm i'm sure it does i because i felt i remember feeling so small in that moment um and And I've had moments after that that made me feel really reasonable and invisible. There's that moment in the book that talks about that moment in drama school where I'm asked to sing for someone else where literally I'm meant to be invisible and just, and my voice is the thing that is being used. But I am totally unseen. And so I think that was a really like massive moment for me because it struck a course. in that I was so mad at myself

because I felt like I had betrayed myself and a gift that I had and used it in the wrong way. I felt like if shame is a feeling, that's the moment I felt, I felt shameful. I felt shame in that moment because I felt like I had misused my gift. And I never wanted to do that again.

And I realized that part of that was how I saw myself, and how I wanted other people to see me. I never wanted to feel invisible again. But that meant in any way, shape or form. I never wanted to walk into a room and have someone see somebody else. I didn't want to ever bring another person into a room unless I was bringing another person into a room.

But it was through me. Ah, that's so beautiful. Okay, for the listener, I want to give, because everyone will see some part of their life and shame in that story. But this is when Cynthia during school has been overlooked, given small roles constantly, and was not cast in one of the major roles. And then the two women that were cast in the major roles got sick. And so instead of putting her on stage to sing the parts, they asked her to go behind the curtain, sing for the parts while the women in the front who were sick, lip synced.

this is an analogy that is so hurtful but every when I heard that I thought immediately thought of like three moments in my life where I was like I've done that I have sold my self to please people correct and that's so so you but you're saying not only for it feels like a similar betrayal if you're doing it on behalf of lifting up someone else or if you're putting not even your true self forward. Yes, I think so. Because there's something that comes from, and it takes time, obviously, to discover who you are completely, but if the journey, if there's like a daily commitment to finding out who that is, you're always, you're always revealing a little bit of yourself. You're always going to be committed to, this is, hi, I'm here, it's me. I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm

trying to show up in as much of an authentic way as I possibly can. And the word authenticity gets used so often, but, and I don't know that everyone really knows what that means, but it means even the rough parts. Like, you know, when I, I was, I was, when I go to the theatre, I'm, I rarely, I have makeup on because I just did a photo shoot, but, um, when I go out, I go to the theatre, I don't have, I never wear any makeup whatsoever. And I know that people will be like, can we take a photo? Do you? But I also want people to know that when you look at me, you actually see me. This is what I wake up looking at. This is what I go to sleep looking at. So this is the person you see. This is the person you meet.

So that you're never confused about who's stepping into the room. And so I have tried my best to find ways to make sure that people understand that this is who you're going to get. So when we get on the set, sometimes people are immediately scared of me, I don't know why, or immediately sort of apprehensive about what I'll be like. But I'm the same as I am on the first day, on the last day.

So the door is open, you can always come and talk to me, and I will get to know every, I'm not a person that says, I love you to every single person I meet. I am a person that will get to know you implicitly before I tell you I love you. So that by the time I say it, I know that your daughter's name is such and such. She's going to this school. You drive this.

You love your wife whose name is Rose. All of the information. So I know you. That for me is the way I function when I'm moving through a space. I want to know people. You can't know everyone. And that means that the connections I make are really genuine. they mean something.

And so to the person who I could make the connection with, they know it means something. It's not frivolous. I don't just throw it away. But that comes with, I'm okay with who I am. And so I'm going to keep revealing that person to you. And hopefully you'll feel comfortable enough to reveal that to me too.

What's the hardest part of you to get comfortable? I ask why a lot. You why? I ask why a lot. And I think that really freaks people out. I question things. And I think people aren't used to a person going, why? I don't understand.

Can you explain that to me? Why would you say that? What does that mean? But genuinely wanting to know the answer, I think often we hear why or what does that mean or I don't understand as an attack. Yeah. Like I've said something wrong.

how comes you don't understand immediately but I actually genuinely I'm okay with not knowing the answer so I'll ask for it you know I also don't mind if you say I don't know then I go okay we'll figure it out then

but I think that's a hard that's a hard part to accept me and I expect I think I'm I think I expect a lot of myself so I expect a lot of other people that can be tough it was cool for me to read that in the book about even even in when you're in a meeting yeah everyone goes to the what what are we

doing what are we doing yeah which if you don't ask why I'm here then you can what your way down any road I mean that you're on the wrong road then you realize why am I doing this that you're in a place that you didn't want to be in in clothes that you don't want to be in sitting with people you don't want to be with and you have no idea why that's right that's right and you'll set You just described a lot of people's lives. Because we didn't stop to go, can you please explain to me what this will do for us or why I'm doing this? Why do I need to do this?

Why do I want to do this? And if a person can't give you an answer, we should probably not do that then. It's so good. Well, shit, Cynthia. That would fix a lot of problems. No one knows why we're doing anything. but we've all agreed to the what we're going to do is we're just going to not ask because that makes everyone uncomfortable when you say why would we do that it's so crazy and when

I see it happening I'm the person that goes I'm so sorry excuse me sorry excuse me I don't understand why we're doing this can someone please explain it to me and everyone's face goes staring blankly. That's like to show you a really good question. It's a good question. Let's, let's figure it out. Let's have a conversation.

Oh, that's so good. It really does when you're first, it's a, it's a slippery slope. Yes. The moment you don't understand why you're there, you must ask because it's going to keep getting worse and worse and worse. And also people start expecting you to just say, okay.

Yes. But the second, And the second you go, I don't know about that. I'm not sure about that. Can you please explain it to me? You will be the person that she's going to ask. And you might occasionally get that, uh, because. And you just put up with the, and for me, I'm like, you can roll your eyes if you wanted,

but you're going to thank me later when you understand why you're doing this. And you're going to thank me when you don't have an answer. And I've taken that off your schedule and you don't have to do that anymore. That's right. Exactly. Cynthia, is this part of the too muchness? I just want to know because it's such a sweet offering. And by the way, I didn't expect the book to be as vulnerable as it is.

I think it's a very, you could have been much less generous with your personal stories, with your vulnerability, really appreciated that. Thank you. Is the asking the wise, is that part of this too muchness that you are now embracing? And what does it mean to you to be too much? Yeah, that is that. It's asking and finding out and getting all. all the information you possibly can get in order to make the decisions you want to make for your life.

And I think that a lot of us sort of abandon that. We abandon the pursuit of knowledge and knowing, not just scholastically, not just because, not just our books, but our lives. Like we're knowing the information that that tells us what to do next or how to move next. I think the too much is too muchness is that. I think the too muchness is how I show up in my, in my body, the way I dress, the way I do my nails, all of those things. Someone once said to me that my nails, I have it in there. Someone said to me that someone was having a full on discussion about whether my nails were a way to push people away. And I said, how can that be when I spend three to four hours with someone literally this close?

to do them. I spend three to four hours with a person that close. And then when they're done, many people go, oh, can I see your nails? Yes, that was so beautiful. I see your nails. Now I'm physically connected with a person.

I don't know. And now we're having a conversation about nails. This doesn't push anyone away. It actually goes, oh my goodness, I want to, are these looks, it starts conversations consistently. for me this is just another extension of creativity it is an these are the canvas that another person uses that i get to use in my life i get to tell stories with these or no stories with these it

shows a feeling it shows a vibe and and it's the same with what i put on i dress for me i don't know what going out clothes are i have none i have very many clothes that i love there are no clothes that i save for going out. There are no clothes that I save for being in the house. It's all lovely. I wear it all whenever I feel like wearing it. That's it. There are no special bags, no special shoes, no special clothes. They're all special. I wear them all the time. There's nothing I put aside for anything. And now it's time for our ads. Okay, how excited are we for the new Wicked for Good movie? Oh, very.

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The Gain Wicked for Good collection is available online and in retailers nationwide. Thanks, Gain, for supporting We Can Do Hard Things. you are one of the most beloved actors of our time who refuses to act you are like never acting how is this possible because i believe that to act is actually to tell the truth that's what i think it is and you'll hear people have many different ways about it. Some method actors are method actors. I don't believe in method acting because I think it's dangerous. And I actually think that really only men can do it. Say more, please. Because the situations that are told for women and the situations that are told for men usually

are very, very different. I, if we can, I can play Lincoln. You know, like if someone is playing Lincoln, play Lincoln. And you're a president and you don't speak to everybody and that's fine. If I'm playing Tessa, who I'm playing right now, Prima Faschi, who is sexually abused, how can I, how can I method act that? Wow.

How can I method that? Wow. You know, and if we, let's make it, like, let's say, Elphabur. How do I method act being ostracized by everybody in, who was around me? I'll drive myself in Hussein. I don't want to be in a place where everyone, well, no one talks to me. I don't actually want to be in that place because I've also experienced what it's like when you feel like you don't belong at all.

I've actually experienced when no one is talking to you. It doesn't feel good. I don't need to put myself through it to know what it feels like. And so I am mining the things that I already understand, the things that I already know, and funneling them through my body into whoever I'm playing. So is the method acting for the men a simpler, more enjoyable, more familiar experience?

because they are playing roles that have power. Correct. And the women are always, whether art reflects life or life reflects art, playing people who have been. Right, subservient roles. And so why would- Have been hurt, have been abused, all of that. Now, we get to shift that more often now,

and there are roles that are far more powerful for women, which is amazing. But I don't, of my friends, the people that I know who are, spectacular. I don't, they are not method actors, but they're brilliant. Cynthia, talk to us about playing Jesus. Yeah. This was, if you aren't a person who lives in LA. Scary as fuck. Scary. When I, so I, so I, I would have method acted that shit. I, so I have this, I, I, I, my, um, barometer for whether I should play a role is how it makes me feel when someone says it out loud. So I get the message from my agent and she says, so, okay, they're doing a version of Jesus Christ Superstar and they would like you to play

Jesus. I said, I beg pardon? What did you say? They think it might be a really good idea for you to play Jesus. I said, and because my manager knows me very well, she said, I told them, that's an amazing idea. I said, come again. Why? They just want to change something. They want to try something different. And I was terrified, immediately terrified.

I know what I look like. I know what I am. I know what's going to happen the second this is announced. I knew it immediately. And that is the reason I said, okay. Fine. Fine, let's do it. So I knew I would have to learn something about myself.

I knew I would have to connect with my faith. I knew I would have to connect with the balance between masculinity and femininity and what that looks like and what that is and is it. And I knew I would have to find a way through it all to tell the story my way. I didn't want to mimic playing a man, but I also didn't want to make it as feminine as possible. I was just like, what does that, what is that in between space where it's just a person with, with energy that brings people in? What does that look like for someone who is connected to a spirit, a holy spirit, God, what does that look like? And I know that for those who read the Bible, it was really interesting because when it was, there was so much, there was both excitement and anger, nothing in between, both the extremes.

And for those who were really angry, I knew, I knew that they hadn't really understood what this faith is based on, which actually is love. to love one another as you would be loved, to do unto another as you would have done unto you. And we are all made in the likeness of God, all made in the likeness. I know that implicitly. And so I was like, well, that's the through line. That's the truth.

So if I know that's the truth, there's no reason I should be terrified of playing this role. because it's already a part of me. So I can just funnel that and tell that. You can tell the story of a person who's in pain. You can tell the story of a person who's afraid. You can tell the story of a person who has a big journey ahead of them and they're just afraid to do it.

You can tell the person who is betrayed by a friend. You can tell the story who loves and is loved. You can tell the story of a person who is lifted and pulled down. You can tell that. All those are actually really human things. And I can tell that in my body. I can do that. Yeah, you did.

All of L.A. was like in shock by the power and beauty of it for a good long time. I have to tell you, I didn't. I was really overwhelmed by what happened after. I really didn't expect that. I knew we were doing something special. And in that space, I thought, well, this is. amazing. That first night knocked me off my feet. I really didn't expect that reaction. You have to understand when it, that's, as one person sitting in the center of the stage

at the Hollywood Bowl, when there's 17,500 people screaming back at you, that's, that's like a wave of, of energy and, and emotion that I just wasn't expecting to get. I just didn't, I didn't, For some reason, I just didn't, um, I didn't know that that would happen. I just had no idea that that might be a situation. That might be the situation. So when it happened, I, I really tried to just hold the moment, be the character, stay there, wait until it's time to, and I, and I, I feel it, and then synthis shows up and goes, fuck.

And then I have to switch her off and go, Jesus. Jesus. You see it. There's like a moment that goes, yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. How. That's what's happening in my brain.

And then I go, I have to, I have to continue. Come back. Now we move on. Wow. Yeah. So Cynthia showed up for a minute to be there and receive that. Oh, that's beautiful. actually. Yeah, I showed up. I was like, I didn't, and I didn't expect, because it like knocked me

out of myself. Because sometimes, knock the Jesus right out of you. Yeah, no, you can like, because you have to sort of make room for the characters sometimes. Sort of like you, you're the vessel. So the characters come through you and you make the room for them. You sort of sit yourself to the back. It's like a theatre, you know, you move to the back of the theatre while the character comes forward and they take a most space. And I was happily residing at the back of the theatre, you know, existing and watching what's going on, sort of being the motor to which everything happens. And then it's like someone came to the back of the seat and like pushed me forward and I tripped up and was in the room. That's so beautiful. And had to go,

she won't move by thinking, I need to go back. I have to go back. I'm going to go back. I have to go back we have to keep moving uh your generosity is so it really moved me in the book when somebody wrote and said something about how women can't be jesus which is just what people have been saying since jesus time so it's like i mean that's not a surprising reaction but your response was so generous in that you thought oh that's so sad what she thinks of herself Sad, yeah. Tell us about that. I think when other women put those kinds of limitations on other women, I don't think it's

really about the other woman. I really think it's about themselves. I think it's about how they've been treated their whole lives. I think it's about what they've been told about themselves. And I think it's about what they believe about themselves. And they can't possibly believe more of any other person. Yeah. Because they are now conditioned to believe that they have so little to give.

And I felt like that was heartbreaking. I felt like in a moment where she could have seen how much more she has to give because of this character, because of this other woman who was able to do more, she only saw how little she has to offer and therefore how little she thought I had to offer. Yeah. So when she's saying, Cynthia, you can't, you're not. not you can't be fully divine you can't she meant I can't I can't I can't do it yeah is because it really read like someone it read like she was repeating what had been said to her

yes that's what it read like I was like these aren't your words these are someone else's words yeah and they're behind the curtain exactly they are using you as a mouthpiece oh okay and do you think that all of like this um it feels to me like the pajamas at the end of the day like is this insistence of your of yourself yes your selfness always being forward nobody else no acting this is me is that a way of drawing a boundary between your acting life and your real life i think so i think so i think it's to make sure that people never forget that that beneath all of it, that with all of it is the human being

that it isn't a switch that comes on and off, that in order to make all of this happen, the human being has to take care and be taken care of themselves. Okay, well, we have to let you go because you have

seven million things to do, but I need to leave you with this. Is that the time already? I know, is that crazy? I have any, I feels like it's been 30 seconds. Do we have to go? Well, you should know But real quick, I have, like, really interesting social anxiety. And so I had to go to this party a while back. And I decided I was going to go because I cared about the person.

It was right after we had seen Wicked. I started describing my gender as I am Glinda presenting with an Alphaba soul. I was obsessed with Alphaba constantly. Okay. My children, to help me get ready for this party, helped me dress up. Yeah. And I was dressed up as Alphaba. Okay.

I'm going to get, this was not a costume party. Yeah, it was not a costume. It was not a costume party. I had on my full black dress, my collar, my boots, my rings, my nails. I had on everything. And this was the way I was going to go and be brave for this party. Cynthia, I walk into the party and Abby and I are walking down this small hallway. And the first person who we see walking towards us is you.

And I dive behind Abby like I've never. It was a friend's birthday party, a friend's birthday party. It was Sarah Paulson's birthday party. Oh my God. And I hid from you Because I was like, I am dressed as Alphaba And Elvaba is walking in the room Oh my God

But the thing is I had my Alphabet coat on You didn't see that leather jacket I wore? You didn't see how long leather coat I wore? Yeah, it was gorgeous Yeah, well Cynthia, you're allowed to dress as Alpha Because you are her. I am not. Oh my God, I wish

I wish you didn't dive I wish I would have given you the biggest hug in the world Oh my gosh oh my gosh we were actually headed out and so we just passed each other in the hallway and I almost died and she looks at me and she goes I'm wearing this dress and I'm like we're just going to keep walking it's a whole family story now since yeah you're a legend not only in the world but in our home this hour has been more than I could have ever dreamed I am so grateful that you are who you are in the world it just makes all of us

better. Thank you very much. This has been really wonderful and like really like super super affirming. You can't imagine. This book means so much to me. I'm I was really my book agent was badgering me forever and ever and ever. He was like, you have to write something. You have to write something. And I'd be like, I don't know. I don't think I have that much to say. He was like, you have a lot to say. I've been listening to you in your podcasts. I was like, I know, but those are just things that come out of me. There's a lot, just stories that I, and he said, well, you should write them down.

And I was like, I just, I don't know. And then when we finally sort of did it, I, I don't know. I just, I knew it was special to me. And so I'm really glad that you like it, that it has been helpful and that you've enjoyed some of these stories and that they've been meaningful because it really has meant a lot to me to be on this journey of writing this and telling people what some of this journey looks like that it all hasn't been like bright and flowery that actually some of the

learning has come from the more the sort of darker parts of who I am and the things that I have experienced and that actually that and forgive me if this sounds cliche that from the darker parts there is always going to be light that you can always find brightness and light and and and joy from the things that have hurt, that have pulled you into a dark space and that have taken from you, that you can always change that and that can always get you to another place in your life.

It's just I'm really, I'm glad to be doing this with you. I'm really glad to be speaking to both of you because if anyone knows, you do. So thank you. Cynthia, you're a dream. Everybody go pick up the book and give it to your friends. and give it to your family.

It's what we need right now. We need to not be shrinking. And I won't even tell everybody to go see Wicked because they're already there. So we'll talk about it next week. While you're waiting in line for your Wicked tickets, you can bring in your book. Right, that's right. I will say that I wrote this like as a gift. I kept saying I really want us to be a gift for people.

I really want to feel like a gift for me to everyone who gets it. That I want people to buy it for each other and give it as a peace offering. and, you know, I feel like that's mostly what a lot of my work is, that it wants to be an offering for people. So this is one of those offerings. Yeah. It sure is an offering. Thank you, Cynthia.

Thank you so much to gain for sponsoring this episode. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram. and at We Can Do Hard Things Show on TikTok.