We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Debunking #Goals: Changing the Way We Set Goals

Episode Date: November 26, 2024

Debunking #Goals: Changing the Way We Set Goals  Abby, Glennon, and Amanda discuss the concept of setting goals and whether having rigid expectations for our future can be detrimental.  Discover:�� The psychological undercurrent of setting goals  Glennon envisions her 70-year old self  Should we live for the future?  The ways in which we seek control over our lives To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I feel so thankful for both of you. You do? Yes. I feel deeply thankful for each of you. Why? Oh God. Um, well. You give her an inch.

You give her an inch. I like specificity. Yeah, I hear that. Yeah. Well, I mean, today, now that you're putting me on the spot, I would just say that I think that it's hard to find people that you feel security and challenge with. Like that both make you feel you're exactly okay the way you are, but also are a safe place to grow. I think a lot of times people are either or.

Oh really? Yeah, I have a lot of people that I love and I feel safe with, but it feels like my safety is dependent on me being an older version of myself. Which not older like age wise, like previous version. Or I have people that I'm always trying to keep up with. Like I feel like I always have to be so fucking evolved. So I just appreciate it.

Not us, sister. No, low bar. I can be either or. A benefit of a low bar. But it's also not the lowest bar. It's like, you don't want to be the most expensive house on the block. You don't want to be the wisest of your friends

because then you're a little stagnant, right? You got to be with people you can travel with. Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, I think you both are very good traveling partners. Thank you. You're so welcome. I'm gonna really accept that.

Okay, great. Do either of you have like gratitude, you know how gratitude practices are supposed to be the key and answer of everything? Do either of you ever do that shit? I don't do it like in a journal. I just am constantly grateful. I'm like constantly in my head like, oh wow, I'm super lucky.

I'm so happy that even when the shit was going wrong, we've talked about this before like all of last year, just like. Every day a new reason not to be grateful. Well no it made me in a weird way just even more grateful because there was loss and grief and hard stuff that was really happening but it also made me feel like a stronger stability in our home in our marriage marriage, in our family. And not that it can't be taken away because obviously that's real. But like the closer you get to the truth, it's, I don't know, I have been feeling extraordinarily grateful for the things that we've been able to do.

I mean, I feel like I've lived such a beautiful life and I've done such weird, cool, bizarre, hard, complicated, terrifying things. So no, I don't do a practice, but I feel like I live a life of gratitude, if that makes sense. What about you, Sissy? How you doing around the gratitude maypole? but I feel like I live a life of gratitude, if that makes sense. What about you, Sissy?

How you doing around the gratitude maypole? I feel, as far as practices, probably only like a dinner, we will say something we're thankful for. And it's always interesting to hear what other people are thankful for, and that gives you a different perspective too. You're like, oh wow. The things that I think are what these kids value. It's really just the hamburger then. But sometimes it'll be things that, you know, they're not going

to come out and say to you, Hey, thanks for doing that for me. But it comes out sideways and they're thankfulness is So that's very cool. That's only practice I think, but my thankfulness of this year of Tolmet in the vast world and in my life and body and all of it is that I think it's kind of killed the monster in a way that was always promising. Like if you just keep going, if you just keep going, it'll work out. If you just keep your head down and do what you think you're supposed to do. And every time you get the discomfort that you're not doing enough or not being enough or whatever, you just push through and try harder.

That little beast that has always lived inside of me, which was a lot of evidence to the contrary, I think it finally slew the beast of like, that's officially horseshit. So I'm very thankful for that and it's not easier. It's like a different kind of discomfort, which is trying to tolerate the discomfort of having to be okay with feeling icky about not doing, doing, doing. Just like holding

a different kind of discomfort for a little bit, but I think it feels realer. Killed the monster. That's so good. So the monster was like achievement or busyness or just keep trucking and then eventually a peace will come because it will be a result of when I've won. Right. A destination kind of peace. I always thought that like what was standing between me and contentment or me and peace or me and feeling and being who I thought I should be or how I thought I would feel was at the other end of something. And usually I just filled that up with things. If it's work stuff or kid stuff or everything. Like now I just finally get it. I get it. That like it isn't there and maybe it's nowhere. I'm not even sure. I know it's not there. I don't know if it's here. It might not be anywhere. But since I know it's not there on the other side of fill in

the blank, I can stop trying to trudge through the fill in the blank because where the fuck am I going? And what is it when you say it's not there, it might not even be here? What is the it that you're looking for? I mean, peace, satisfaction, feeling like there isn't a whole nother it jungle. I think the only way for me to not see a journey in front of me that I need to get through is to not see a journey in front of me that I need to get through is to not see a journey in front of me that I need to get through. And also just being like, you know what? Maybe this is who I fucking am. And I'm just starting to get fine with it. Wait, okay, who? What do you mean? Like, cranky?

Well, thank you, Gledden. That wasn't a word that was on my top 20 list I was going to use. No, in the moment, you sounded like you were talking about, like a cromudgy thing. I was gonna say cromudgy. I don't think of you that way, but that's what you just sounded like you were presenting. TBD on that?

I think just like... Are you looking for a different version of yourself? And I'm asking this because I'm always trying to figure it out for myself. Like, what is the goal? And what are you now that you're thinking will. Like, what is the goal? And what are you now that you're thinking will be different when you find the goal? No, I think that's the point. There's no goal. Is that like, I've always been goal driven, driven through whatever needs to be driven

through even if it hurts me, even if I hate it, even if it's painful, because I believe the goal is worth getting through whatever you're getting through. And now I'm like, no, I don't think it is. And that's harder because then you have to be like, how do I wanna travel if the destination is not determining the route? Yes, I talked about this with my therapist the other day. Ooh, okay. And because I talked about this with my therapist the other day. Ooh.

And because I am such a goal driven person, it's the thing that wakes me up. It's the thing that lights me up. It's the thing that excites me. And so she took me through this exercise. She's like, let's pretend that there is no goal. And she's like, what's the feeling? And I had like an instant body constriction

of fear and aimlessness. And I'm a sloth. Existential threat. Yeah. Like what is the point of being alive? Yeah. And I think that part of it is that maybe I don't necessarily trust myself without some sort of external thing. Not to say that that's your thing, but she said, look, goals are very important to be a human being, right? Like all of us, we have them, whether they're dreams, but if you're using them to take the place

of that hot loneliness, that dread, then maybe that's something that you wanna think about. Right, if you're using them as a replacement for having to find intrinsic value in yourself, then that's tricky because that is what we are. We don't have to think about if we're valuable, if we keep having these receipts that were valuable. That's exactly right. But if you take away the receipts, you have to either be okay with no objective determination

that you are valuable or you have to like self-determine that value. That's right. And that is weird and scary. Self-soothing is what she was calling it. She said it's a way to self-soothe. Oh, it's a form of soothing. Interesting. Yeah, that's interesting too because my goal, like I need a goal too, but I don't want these

goals. So I've been taught, just today I was on with my therapist and I was like, I feel like I do need a goal. So what I would like my goal to be, because it feels like I'm still working towards something. I did this, yes. You did? Yes. Is the ability to self-settle my nervous system,

because I can't control what happens. I can't control what anyone does. I can't even control my relationships with anyone. Nope. Nothing. So I just would find it to be a great delight and important thing. And maybe the most important thing,

if I could just like figure out how to let whatever happen to me and know that I know how to be in my body with it and not go haywire. That's a great goal. I love that. I know, but it's ironic. Why?

Because the people who are trying to soothe ourselves, it makes us feel safe to have this goal that we're going to because it's a part of us. But sometimes the goal oriented part of ourselves takes control of the wheel and then everything else gets, you can't even see it. It's like, I will crash through everything and lose all the other parts of me

in order to achieve this goal. And so it's ironic that you're making it, like the goal oriented part of yourself is taking the wheel. And then like this like settled nervous system part of yourself is like, but what about me? Can I pitch to you all my version of this and see if it would work for you all?

Sure. Because you two are similar in this way I think. Yeah. Okay. I don't think about it the way you guys. Sure. Because you two are similar in this way, I think. Yeah. Okay. I don't think about it the way you guys do. That's really interesting to me because, oh, I don't know, I keep having big projects in the world and they keep doing really well and I keep, no matter what, just being myself. So I have long ago given up the idea that there's something that I'm going to accomplish that is going

to bring to me a different experience on the earth. Because if that were going to happen, for sure that would have already happened. Right. So that's nice. I killed the monster for you. That's good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I'm surprised that it didn't do the same for you because we were doing the same thing. Yeah, but I had the opposite extreme. I was like, look, the hustling has been paying off. The fact that you push through. This is evidence that that was worth it. That's right. But did it ever make you feel better? I never thought that that was that it mattered. It didn't matter. That wasn't the goal.

Didn't matter. The goal was the thing at the other end. So it was not relevant. Ah, to me. Right. But do you now see that that's weird? Right. But that's why it's so complicated for people like her and I who are goal oriented. And then you are getting these receipts. Then it's confirmation bias that your feelings don't fucking matter through the whole thing because you have this receipt and then you have another receipt and then a medal and then a trophy and then this and then the In the whole way you're like I've been actually pretty miserable going through this whole process But that doesn't matter, but it didn't matter not even in touch with your internal thing

Yeah, you are in touch with your goal. Yeah, and your goal is going well So you're very confused that something is a mess because it just doesn't feel perfectly, right? But there's no reason it shouldn't feel perfectly right because you had the goal and you met the goal So whatever put that on the shelf. We'll deal with that another day. Everything's going perfectly It's so funny how you can bypass your entire self because the fucking Goal-oriented part of ourselves are just driving the car. They're just like I I've got this, we've got this. And the other parts are like, I guess they've got it. Yeah. I guess everything's going the way. Perfect. Yeah. It's kind of odd that I have this aching, aching longing of sadness, but that's just must be a weird

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Hey friends, I'm Sharon McMahon, host of Here's Where It Gets Interesting. Each week I speak with authors, experts, and thought leaders on everything from American history and democracy to how to be a better person on the internet. And don't miss my extremely popular DACU series, which educate you on things you never learned in history class. Follow and listen to Heroes Work. It's interesting on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay. One version of this that I feel like could work. For people like sister and I?

I do. It works for me and I understand that I think of things a little bit differently than this, but I still think it could work for you because it combines the self and the idea of a goal. It incorporates the self and your own personal experience on the earth with a goal. And that is, what if you two, instead of some sort of outer goal that you're attaching yourself to that is some kind of like accomplishment or task or something that's outside of yourself, what if no more goals got it? But what if it's a vision of yourself? For example, I have never been able to attach like, I'm gonna do this thing and that's gonna make me feel better

since it clearly didn't work before, okay? However, I do have on several occasions in my life, had visions, not like weird visions that just come to me, like I've thought of it, tried to think of it, conjured, selves that I want to be when I'm like 70, when I'm 80. Okay. That's cool. I have a vision of myself and it's not like organized.

It's not a fricking spreadsheet. You don't have a Pinterest board? No, I do not, but I can see it and feel it. Like I've actually, that's something my therapist told me to do. A Pinterest board? Make a Pinterest board? Yeah. What? To like throw up some dreams,

some things you're interested in doing. Like a mood board for your inner self? A little bit so that we can fit, anyways, sorry. Go ahead. Interesting. That's cool. Yeah. Like a couple mood board, a couple dream board. Well, okay. Let me just get into the vision because that feels very like, oh, I don't know. That feels constrictive to me. That feels like-

Well, you're necessarily also being derivative. Like the whole idea of that is I'm taking from something else and I'm putting it together and making my own. And maybe the copying has been part of the problem to get us to the place of like, but we're copying everyone, do everyone told us to copy? And we're still sad. Yeah. Maybe it's because I have visions of like,

when people were doing whatever those were called, like manifestation boards or something, which blessings to everyone who's done. But I just feel like they were always goals. But isn't what you're saying- They were always like things that they thought would make people happy. Let me just explain. they were always goals. But isn't what you're saying. They were always like things that they thought would make people happy. Let me just explain.

Yeah, explain it because I'm feeling like I need, yeah. Okay. I have had like a vision of myself, okay, at 70 and it's not totally thought through, but it is I am walking on a beach slowly, not like working out, just slowly walking on the beach. Things I know about this version of me. I have long, like wild, curly gray hair.

Okay? I am wearing very loose, colorful, like, roby-type clothes, like purple. Okay? A tunic. A tunic. Okay? Yeah. I have some cool jewelry on that's not, you know, I don't know. It feels like... Bangley beads. Bangley shit. Like, it feels like I got it from, like, the farmer's market, okay? It's like my local farmer's market because the kid works there who's like my neighbor's

grandkid and I think she's so cute, so I bought all her shit, okay? It's like that vibe. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Stevie walks up to your house every time she makes a new batch and she's so cute, so I bought all her shit. Okay, it's like that vibe. Yeah, like Stevie walks up to your house every time she makes a new batch and she's like, mama G wants some more purple ones. Exactly, of course she does. And you know what?

They're probably not even cute. No, they're terrible. That's not the point. Okay, that's not the point. And I'm walking on the beach and then the vibe is that there are some people who like recognize me and know me, but not because of my work. It's like, cause I'm not a pillar of the community.

But I'm definitely not. Cause I know myself, but I'm never going to be a pillar of the community. But it's clear that people have seen me before. Okay. They know that I live there. You're the lady. You're a tent pole of the community. A pillar just has to stay in one place. And you're not that lady, but you that I live there. You're a tent pole of the community. A pillar just has to stay in one place,

and you're not that lady, but you could be a temple. You could move, you could set up, and then you move again. She's the lady that, like, that walks by, and everybody's like, oh, there's that lady. She walks by here every day, and they're kind of mysterious. A little bit. You're not totally known. I don't want to be mysterious, though, actually.

I want this 80-year-old version old version, 70 year old version of me. She is in her community. Okay. Not aloof. No, not aloof. She is connected, but also free because she's a little quirky. She's colorful.

She's got wild woman energy. She's very calm. Okay. This is the type of person who, like, all right, my neighbor, who has the granddaughter who sells the shit at the farmer's market. Yeah, Stevie.

Yeah, she might be like, her 25 year old daughter might be going through some shit. You're gonna send her to Glennon. All right, you're gonna send her to Glennon who lives in the little purple small cottage on the beach. The one with the crystals out in the front window. Maybe, I don't know. I don't know, she's not trendy.

She might not do crystals. She might do a version of crystals that she has found works for herself, okay? No, crystals will be out by the time you're 70. It will be vintage. But she's calm. Her cottage is full of her painting and her music and her smell she likes and her food she likes.

And she is a part of the community, but not busy. And she is just surrounded by things she loves and people come to her for wisdom. And she is so at peace in herself and her life. Okay. That's good. That's my goal. If you talk about goals, yeah, that's the goal. It's a vision. And what I'm telling you is that I can conjure up that self and I do this all the time. Okay. Now here's what you can't do. If you make

this vision of yourself of who do you want to be when you're 80? Abby knows this. I have had time. So I'm like, okay, so now I'm gonna buy purple robes. I'm gonna walk around the house. I'm gonna let my hair go gray. I'm gonna try to become that version now. That doesn't work. Okay, no. I'm slowly evolving into this person.

But the way that I'm slowly evolving into that person is by kind of conjuring her each day and figuring out what kinds of things would I do to get myself to that, to become that. So that's like, that's a good reason to do therapy and settle your nervous system. That's a good reason to figure out like what you love and what you want to surround yourself by and what would fill your day and to make you feel full of joy. That's the kind of thing that might make you go to like a community situation. I don't know. I haven't done it yet. I have 30 years.

No need to jump into it real quick. This feels like a spirituality way of talking about goals. I don't think so. I think it has to do with instead of choosing externally motivated accomplishments or achievements, it's disregarding what culture tells me will make me happy. And it's conjuring the truest, most beautiful self I can imagine at the end of my life that would make me think I have nothing left to leave on the table,

that I did exactly what I came to do. And really at the end of the day, it has to do with finding a way to be comfortable in your own skin, loving your people enough, and in a way that makes you be able to lay your head on the ground at night and feel like you are yourself. You have at the end of your life become yourself as opposed to trying to be what the world told you to be.

Totally understand that. And I think that I've done a lot of work around quote unquote goals in the last four years because I used to suffer a lot physically so that I could feel self-esteem, all the stuff. I do think that there is maybe a lie that I've been telling myself around setting these hardcore goals or having these goals, thinking that it would change me internally, thinking that it would turn me into the kind of person that was strong and fortified

rather than feeling like I am that person now. Because I also think we all are our future selves right now, whether we wanna believe that or not. We do have a part, many parts of our future selves in us now. So I like this idea of having a vision of myself at 70, 80 years old. Oh my God, what are we gonna look like? It doesn't have to be organized.

It shouldn't be, right? Because you need to leave so much room. You don't know. But what I do know is there's a different version of me that's 70, that if I continued to accept every single challenge, opportunity that the world presented me with, that I could end up as.

And if you take that woman walking on the beach, it's the exact opposite. It's like a harried, cynical, on meetings all day person. I can just feel that self. And it is helpful to me because it makes me think of decisions as like, is that going to get me closer to that lady or further? It's so true because what's wild man is that we're becoming something every day. Yes. It feels kind of pressurized. For example, it would be challenging for you from now to

65 to continue to fill your calendar every day, reach for the next brass ring, hustle to make every opportunity come to you, et cetera. And then at 66, be like, okay, now I'm going to be the purple lady. I don't think that happens. I think if you know what you want, you've got to kind of keep that at the center. Because if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there. You just go. And then you don't even want that purple lady anymore.

Exactly. Exactly. That's why the conjuring has to happen a little bit each day. And I don't know how to explain it other than I can feel it. I can feel like is that moving towards that energy or not? So anyway, it's just an idea for people who do feel like they need some kind of where am I going idea, but have given up on the external challenge, opportunity, goal, ladder, rat race situation,

bringing you any sort of joy. I think it's a cool idea to conjure up what's the truest, most beautiful vision of yourself you can have at 60, 70, 80. What kind of clothes am I gonna be wearing then? Babe, I really think that you'd look great in a purple flowy robe and beads. But I think even better, you could conjure up what's your truest most beautiful 70-year-old, 80-year-old self.

How about a tracksuit, a leisure suit, maybe a terry cloth one. Terry cloth or a velour. Or a velour. Yeah, a velour. Oh, velour tracksuit. Nice. That's what cloth or vintage throwback. Yeah, a velour. Oh, velour tracks. That's what I'm talking about. And then you could like even tank it up sometimes and wrap it around your waist and they'd be like, that's the old lady with the amazing arms. But we're not worried about that. That's not a goal. Right. But I forgot. This is another thing

about the seven year old. This is why she knows so many people from the community is because she is like a fixture in the elementary school. She like goes and helps the kids with their reading and stuff. Is that what you wanna do? Yeah. Cool. You know, service for me has changed what it is for so long and the last iteration of service for me,

I wonder if this happens to people. I'm sure it does. Like something that's so important to you becomes so big that you don't feel it anymore. Like with nonprofit work, with all that stuff, it felt like it started so real, like it was something that was like person to person. And then it just got so big that it felt like it was just a thing of making decisions and it wasn't real. I couldn't feel it in my day-to-day life. And so I do know for this next phase that I would like to make it smaller and realer. Like in my life, in my community, I just want it to be littler and more direct. I think maybe that it'll like affect less people,

but I think it might be the answer to how to make it not just be service, but just like a way of life that's back and forth and grounded and not signaling and not institutional, but like part of connection. Can I come? Yes. Also, like I actually want to come and like learn. and not signaling and not institutional but like part of connection. Can I come?

Yes. Also like I actually want to come and like learn. You want to be in my reading group? Yeah, I really would like to learn how to read better. I'm not even kidding. I struggle reading. I'm a very slow reader and I feel like I wasn't taught correctly and I really didn't like school but I'm like willing to do the work.

You can be in my reading group. Okay. I love it. That sounds good. That sounds good. And also I don't think goals don't bring any joy. I just want to say that I think that goals can be motivating, exciting.

Totally. And if setting goals and meeting goals gives you joy and makes you feel good, that's amazing. What I think is that that gets confusing because it does give real joy at some points that it's not the deepest answer. It's like the frosting, but not the cake. There's a deeper thing that it can satisfy.

And that's the thing you gotta get to or else you're just gonna be like pounding frosting your whole life. That's it. And that's what my therapist said. She said, look, everybody needs goals. Everybody has them and they are very useful but they can't be co-opted as like the thing

that is driving your car for your lifetime. To be in relationship with why the goals are set in place and to be in relationship with, oh, this is a motivating thing for me. Oh, this does help me stay on track. Oh, this does organize my days. Oh, this does give me a sense of self-esteem. Then those are like uber positive in my mind.

But if this is like the only way you can achieve some of the ways of being motivated, ways to stay organized and ways to build self-esteem, those are, I think, what probably are called red flags. I think the red flag has to do with we wouldn't have goals unless we thought they were going to make us happy, or they're going to make us something. Right. We would not be doing it if we didn't think somewhere in our head. Happy or secure or safe. Something like that.

Yes. So the problem is that we, in order to serve ourselves, because that's the ultimate thing in order to get the safety and the peace and the feeling good and the happiness. We disregard our feeling and our peace and our happiness. The whole point of it is the promise, the false promise of a future peace or happiness. The problem is when you believe that false promise, the way that you keep the promise is you completely disregard any of your present

peace, your present connection, your present whatever, which is a form of insanity, right? I will be happy, peaceful, but ever when? But not today. Today, I won't even know. And for me, one of the things that has helped me, I think, find a little bit of peace while also being involved in big projects that would be great if they went, that would be great if they won is, I actually was thinking about it today because I was at a meeting with a group of people who are trying to make something beautiful and it is a goal that it takes off and that

it might and it might not. And what I think is cool is I'm experiencing it much differently than I did two years ago when I was in a similar situation. And I was holding so fast to the outcome. Like every meeting, every whatever was not a means in itself. It was not an end in itself. It was about something else. When you have a goal that you're looking at, what you end up doing is using. You use the people around you. You use your own time. You use everything as a means to an end.

And that feels icky. And you end up doing things and saying things and missing things. And now with this go round of the same project, I really am thinking of it in terms of how awesome it is to be a part of this incredible group. And every time I get on a meeting, I'm actually like kind of awake and alive and thinking about how cool it is that we're all there and learning stuff and getting closer to the people involved. And I was talking to my mom about it, because we have like big pitches this week and all the things.

And I was like, I'm having such an enjoyable time. And I think it's because this sounds awful, but I truly don't really care what happens. If it goes, that will have its own set of awesomeness and challenges and joy and pain. If it doesn't, that will be painful in some ways and it'll also open up a whole other thing and it will mean I don't have all of these weird things that will happen. Like it's every meeting, every togetherness, every planning thing feels like an end in itself to me. And it feels better, man.

So it's not the idea of giving up on goals. It's not the idea of not trying hard things. It's just doing it with a completely different energy that honors yourself and your peace and your happiness today and honoring the people that you're doing it with today. And then when you bring that kind of energy, what unfolds ends up being even sometimes more beautiful and important than the goal you set out for.

["The Day of the Dead"] Can I try to understand this even better? Because I think what you're saying is kind of blowing my mind right now. As a person who's really been goal oriented and achieved a lot through her life by setting goals and accomplishing them. I'm kind of having this like interesting thought that I think might be right. And it is a little bit scary. I think that I was in it for the goals and the achievement of the goals

rather than thinking about it as a way to become somebody different so that no longer would I need to achieve that goal again. So like for an example, stupid diet culture, right? There's a reason why none of the diets work. It's because like you have this period of time that you think that this diet needs to work within. And if it does, great.

If it doesn't, shit. And then you gain more weight because you stopped doing the diet and everything goes to shit. And you have a goal that you'll be happy when. Yes. So what you do is you give up your happiness now. Exactly.

You deny yourself. Exactly. And I'm thinking like, oh, so my mindset has only been about the goal and achievement of the goal, not the human being that I was going to become that would be able to sustain me so as to not have to worry about having to achieve any more of those fucking goals. Exactly. It's like, oh no, if I'm going to go and set out to do something different in my life, I have to think about the person down the road that I want to be and be that person today, be that person tomorrow. And like, eventually I think you become that person

rather than these time-constrainted goals that it's about the goal rather than about the lifestyle change. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. Yeah, it does make sense. It reminds me what you're saying, gee, even about the work stuff. It's

kind of the equivalent of like if you're at a party and you're talking to someone, they're kind of like looking past you to see what's more important. If you're always looking at a goal, then your posture towards everything in the world is looking past whatever's happening towards the sexiest thing in the room, which is the meeting of the goal, right? And you inevitably don't act the way you wanna act when that's the case because you're desperate for it. And a lot of people really do need certain goals to be met.

They really do need that job. They really do need to like take care of themselves. But the problem is we are very, very, very bad at judging what we actually need. And after a certain extent, we view everything with the same kind of desperate hunger as someone who's actually hungry and needs something. And we don't. And I think it happens a lot in our relationships too. Like I'm thinking as you're talking about being present in the meaning and learning what you can and come what may, it feels a lot like when you would always talk about Glennon, don't be so concerned with raising a good kid that you forget you

have one. If you are so desperately committed to having a beautiful family and raising a good kid and doing right by your kid, that you're looking down at the 20 years horizon and so worried about that, then you're necessarily not looking at them right now. Exactly. And you're disregarding what's there. I think that's why when people accomplish

the greatest goals of their thing and they get the goal and then they wake up and they're like, why don't I recognize myself? Why do I hate everyone I'm working with? Why am I in this situation? It's because when all you're concentrating on is this arbitrary future goal, you do not see what's in front of you. If you're in a meeting and somebody says something that hurts you or you're like, wait, what

is that? What am I doing here? You have to ignore it. It's a slow and steady slope to complete self abandonment and to complete reality abandonment. If you are raising a kid and your goal is, I don't know, whatever it is, they'll go to college, they'll whatever you are looking at that kid. And that is all you're seeing that I have experienced this. You are missing what's in front of is all you're seeing that I have experienced this you are missing

What's in front of you every single day because your brain is filtering? Towards what will get us to that goal not the kid that's right in front of you and you end up missing really important things That to me is why the whole recovery thing of one day at a time is so important It is not about when I was first recovering it was like, okay People say that so that I can think about the fact that I only have to not drink today. Because if I think about it my whole life, no, it's because every day is your universe. There is no future. There is no whatever. That will unfold as it should tomorrow if today you are in your presence, you are in your values, you are seeing what's in front of you, you are embodied.

It's about embodiment. If I'm in a meeting now and somebody says some shit and I don't, which is a result of where I am in my career right now, which is a lot of privilege too, but if I don't feel right, I get to say now, this doesn't feel right, regardless of what the goal is, which means I never get too far down where I've lost myself or am surrounded by assholes. It's like every day is the universe and that is not woo woo. That's actual reality because when we make the decisions today

based on what's in front of us tomorrow, algorithmically goes exactly as it should based on our full presence today. And it's not woo-woo at all. If this feels woo-woo to you, you should go back and listen to our episode with Professor Laurie Santos, the happiness professor, where we talk about

the hedonic treadmill. Like it is 100% documented that we are acclimated in our heads by the hedonic treadmill that we think when we save a thousand dollars, we're going to be happy. We work, work, work, we get there and then guess what? We're really happy for a very small window of time because our bodies are made and our brains are made to return to homeostasis as soon as possible. So we get very, very used to a goal we thought would change our lives very, very quickly. And it doesn't matter a goal we thought would change our lives very, very quickly. And it doesn't matter how big that is. We continue to get adjusted and it feels very normal very quickly. And we no longer get the hit

of happiness for the thing we think our goal is. It's science. So it just makes it kind of silly to continue to die your life for something that you're going to feel really good about for a couple days. I know, because whatever you win, wherever you go, there you are. So you might as well start with the you. Like the goal is the you. It's different for everybody.

For somebody else, their 80-year-old vision might be like a hard core executive whatever, like the opposite of my beach walkie lady. And so then great, every decision that you make should be what that woman would do and we'll get her to that whatever. But for me it's a way of living inside out and not outside in because there is no end to the amount of ideas that the culture is going to give you that you should do in order to be happy. And that's always to serve someone else. Can I ask you a question?

Yes. The vision you have of yourself at 70, why? Why is that it? Yeah, like why do you have that vision? That is the beautiful question, right? I think since there's no why is why I trust it. Like if there's a bunch of why's, that would mean that I had gathered it up

on some manifestation board from magazine articles and put it together because the culture has put all the ideas of what a successful 70 year old woman looks like, I've never seen this woman before. I don't know where this comes from. I imagine it's the healed, completely realized version of my self, right? Like whatever brings to you the most peace,

like the version of yourself that when you are lying on your death bed, you're like, yeah, I can't imagine it being truer than this for me. Cool. I lived my life. That version. The version of this person, she's right with everybody. She's made it right with people. Meaning like, there's no loose ends, there's no shame left, there's no, she hasn't done

it right. That's not it. I know myself. I'm not putting that on her. We're speaking about repair here, people. Yeah, yeah. Like, I know this woman has made a mess of so many things. That's part of her beauty, okay?

But she's kept her side of the street clean. You know? So anyway, I love that conversation, y'all. Wow. Hold on a second. I just want to ask you, because you asked sister and I at the beginning, do you have a gratitude practice? I have had many gratitude practices over my

life. I'm not thinking of like a particular thing that I do right now, but what I will say about the gratitude practice that anyone has is that I think the magic of it is, I think people think that it'll be important because when I sit down at night and I write my 10 things in my gratitude journal, that will make me feel grateful and I'll go to sleep. And like the magic of the gratitude ritual is inside that 20 minutes or that 30 minutes, and that is not it. So remember when one of our kids wanted to be a photographer and the magical thing that we saw happen in this kid's life is that the way he approached his days,

his actual life changed because from the moment he woke up in the morning until the moment he went to bed he was looking for interesting beautiful things to photograph. That is why you have to be very careful about your goals because all you will see when you wake up to when you go to bed is what serves that goal. Okay? If you are a person who keeps a gratitude practice where every night you're going to need to think of five different things that are outside of the box, you're not always saying my family,

my house, whatever. Then by necessity, you are going to start waking up, walking through your day, looking for things to be grateful for. And what I know for sure is that life is just lifeing, that we do not see things as they are, we see things as we are. That seek and you shall find means whatever you are looking for, you're going to find it, meaning if you're looking for reasons to be pissed, to be sad, and if you've decided that it is your job to look for things to be grateful for,

to look for beautiful things, that is what you will see. So intention, a vision, it changes your actual experience of life, and I think that's why the gratitude practice has been so important for so many people. It's not a journal, it's not a whatever, it's a way of waking up and seeing all the beauty that is there to be seen if you do it like it's your job. Totally. Which is why we decided to re-air the Roske Delight episode because that's all about training your eye, you should listen to that if you haven all about training your eye.

You should listen to that if you haven't training your eye to see the small delights that otherwise would just fly by you unnoticed. And when you start that practice, it's amazing. Yeah. It's amazing. I think it's cool when people do it with their friends. Just, you don't have to have a journal. Start a text chain and just snap a picture

of the thing that brought you delight or gratitude that day. And you don't have to like ever, there's no rules. You don't have to do it. You don't have to write anything with it. It's just such a beautiful way to get to know life through your friend's eyes. Yes. I love that. After we published that article, I feel like I had a, like with you guys and with a bunch of other people, like

something would happen and we'd just be like, delight, delight, some headline delight or meme like anything. It was just like, that was fucking delightful. Yeah. And the harder life is the harder our planet is the harder our political system is, I think people think, well how can you possibly? And that is the time. Like when you're gonna have to fight for something, for the existence of something, it is more important than ever to remember why you're fighting in the first place, why it's worth it in the first place. So when times are hard, you got to double down on that shit. We love you, Pod Squad. We are so grateful for you. You are a delight. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things, first, can you please

follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow.

This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey.

Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.