We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Double Date with Brandi & Catherine Carlile!

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

In this hilarious and heartwarming in-person double date with Abby and Glennon—and their dear friends and brilliant artists Brandi and Catherine Carlile—we learn: 1. Why Brandi was completely dismayed the first time she met Catherine; 2. Who made the first move—and why it made Catherine sweat; 3. All about the Carlile family compound—where they are raising their girls surrounded by family, band members, and exes; 4. How they communicate and deal with jealousy; and 5. Why Brandi believes this conversation—two queer couples sitting on a couch publicly discussing marriage, family, and domesticity—is revolutionary. About Brandi: Brandi Carlile is a six-time GRAMMY Award-winning singer, songwriter, performer, producer, #1 New York Times Bestselling author and activist, who is known as one of music's most respected voices. Her new album, In These Silent Days, recently debuted at #1 on Billboard’s Americana/Folk Albums chart, Top Rock Albums chart and Tastemaker Albums chart and continues to receive overwhelming acclaim. The New York Times praises, “Larger than life and achingly human…she empathizes, apologizes and lays out accusations. She’s righteous and she’s self-doubting. She proffers fond lullabies and she unleashes full-throated screams," while NPR Music declares, “absolutely breathtaking, across the whole album Brandi Carlile pulls out all the stops. It’s just extraordinary…she’s just claiming rock god status." Carlile recently received five nominations at the 64th Annual Grammy Awards including Record of the Year, Song of the Year and Best Pop Vocal Performance for the album's lead single, "Right On Time." Following a breakthrough debut on "Saturday Night Live," Carlile and her band will embark on a series of landmark concerts next year including stops at Washington’s Gorge Amphitheatre, Los Angeles’ The Greek Theatre and New York’s Madison Square Garden among many others. In addition to her 6 GRAMMY Awards, Carlile has been recognized with Billboard’s Women In Music “Trailblazer Award,” CMT’s Next Women of Country “Impact Award" and received multiple recognitions from the Americana Music Association Honors & Awards including Artist of the Year for the past two years. TW: @brandicarlile IG: @brandicarlile About Catherine:  Catherine Carlile has devoted her life to the intersection of music and activism with over 20 years of experience. Since 2012, she has served as the Executive Director of the Looking Out Foundation, which has raised over $3 million for a variety of grassroots causes including close work with Children In Conflict/War Child. She also serves as creative director for Phantom 309 Productions. Prior to her current work, Catherine worked with Sir Paul McCartney in coordinating his charitable interests and endeavors. Originally from London, Catherine now lives outside of Seattle, WA with her wife, Brandi Carlile, and their two daughters, Evangeline and Elijah. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things! Today we are continuing our conversation with 6-time Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter, performer, producer,

number one New York Times best-selling author and activist. And our dear, dear friend, Brandi Carlyle. But today, we are having a double date. We are joined by, of course, my beloved wife, Abby Womack. And we welcome Brandi's wife, Catherine Carlisle. Catherine, one of our favorite people, has devoted her life to the intersection of music and activism with over 20 years of experience.

Since 2012, she has served as the executive director of the Looking Out Foundation, which is raised over $3 million for a variety of grassroots causes. She has also served as creative director for Phantom 309 Productions, and you'll very quickly find out she has an amazing voice. She's also an incredible writer. Katherine and Brandy now live outside of Seattle, Washington with their two daughters, Van Jolene and Elijah. Let's jump in. Her secret is that she did voice overs before she moved to the stage.

That's my secret dream job. Okay, we're going to start because I want to talk about that. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here.

I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here.

I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. I'm so glad that you're here. Catherine and Brandy. And you've kind of interrupted us in the middle, but that's okay. You don't need to apologize.

Yeah, just to give the four-in-one, we just had lunch. Uh-huh. And so we're technically now in the after-food portion of this double day. Yeah, it's the after-party. And we were just learning that Catherine used to do voiceovers. Oh. This doesn't surprise me at all. Tell me more.

Oh, good. Shall I? No, tell the person who does the voiceovers. No, tell the person who does the voiceovers? This doesn't surprise me at all. Tell me more. Shall I already want to tell you? No, the person who does the voiceovers wanted to talk. It was, I worked at a studio, as a studio manager, and they would do voiceover stuff in the studio. Listen to that voice. Oh, that's perfect. One day, one of the vocal coaches doing this, voice over work said, you should do it, you know? And I said, sure. And I had like a couple of lessons and did them out of my cupboard under the stairs. Okay, if anyone's listening right now

that like is in charge of voice overs, you just need to hire a cathode. I can listen to all day. Actually, that is a line in the rock. Is that what it's called? Yeah, it's so good What is that line about when Catherine goes for a while and you're so codependent? They can't handle her. Me and my garden in you out on your walk is all the distance this poor girl can take without listening to you talk I mean listen to her. She's any human. Yeah

Okay, how just how did you guys meet and who asked out who first? Yeah Who saw who first? Oh, I love this. This is so exciting. Well, I knew what Brandy looked like before she met me, because obviously, she's Brandy. Right. And I did not know what Katherine looked like. And this is actually very funny because I was involved

in a campaign in the States called the Fight the Fear Campaign, we were teaching women self-defense in response to a really violent crime that happened in Seattle and Catherine would have been reading about it all the way over in the UK. And she got in touch with my manager and asked if her and Paul McCartney who she was working for at the time, organizing his sort of charity stuff, could donate anything to the cause to help us raise funds. And my manager connected me with her

because she ran a foundation and I had just started one. And so I was being mentored by this person for quite a while actually, like little over a year. And I knew some things about our I knew she had a girlfriend. I knew she liked the Indigo girls. And I knew she worked for Paul McCartney and I thought she was Paul's age.

Oh. Oh. So I thought she was Paul's age. Oh, I thought I was talking to somebody pretty close to like 70. The whole time. So when did you discover that she is in fact not? When I saw her. And how did you see her? About two years later. Oh, she came to a show in New York City. She had come

to New York to work at the Paul McCartney's office in New York City and came out to a show. And I remember the tour manager being like, Hey, the charity lady is going to be at the show. And I was like, Oh, my God, the gay bars are the lesbians. I have my friends in New York City with the hell, you know? And I'm gonna see the charity lady. Wow. And I got back to the dressing room and there was Catherine in her 28 year old glory. We were both 20. I just couldn't believe my eyes, the shock of what I thought

Catherine would look like to what she did look like was just really disarming. Did you love her right away? Yeah, what was like the first thing you said to her? I think I made, I think I said, I thought you were 70. Yeah, you did this and like that. It's smooth.

Yeah, good luck to me. And she was there with her girlfriend. Oh, yeah, so it definitely wasn't love at first sight because we went in that headspace. And Kim was back at her in the family. And her and her girlfriend were gonna go to Memphis. They want to see a place that Rock and Roll was started. And I was like, don't come to Memphis, come to my house.

And so they did. And we became fast friends. We played guitar all night. We cooked steaks. And I did love her right away. I absolutely thought she was just the the funnest person, but it was a really platonic at first for another year. Yeah. For one whole year.

Yeah. And then who made the first non-satonic move? Well, Brandi, I say her, she says, no, you get you winked at me. You get me a really big, big, she says me. No, you get you winked at me. You get me a red, big, cocky wink. Can you describe the like what? Yeah, we were at a lactactable. I'm a cliche. It's a long story. And she had her leg copped up on the chair. She looked at me and gave me the most confident wink I've ever received.

And it made me really nervous. And I thought, ooh, what am I supposed to do about that? Probably winked so all the girls. You know? I was sweating. Yeah, yeah, it made me sweat a little bit. And I would say that was the boldest move. It was the first time that we were like,

oh yeah, maybe there was no tension. There wasn't any of that like long-drawn out lesbian friendship tension thing. It was just like, that was the moment I was like, she is so gorgeous and really fun. And my brother was there with me and people in my family and it was just like, there was just something about it. It's just belonged there.

And I was like, I'm just gonna give her a wink. Yeah. I don't know when to be like impressed or disgusted. No, I'm not even impressed. Because like a wink, it feels like so confident. Very comfortable. Yeah. And it was like, like, like, like, more than this. Like, just one of those. It was like an open for wild. Yeah, and it was like, like, I want more than this.

Like, just one of those. It was like an open for business. Yeah. Like I'm open for business. It was a sign. Okay, that's being signed. Yeah. I knew here.

So I didn't know that was one of our signs. Yeah, it was relatively new too. Oh, okay. We'll check you all, I'll show you later. We have a one and a shake too. I'll show you. You're probably going to show me. But then we didn't see each other again.

We went our separate ways. But when we saw each other again, it was like, I saw her and she saw me. And as soon as we locked eyes, I remember she was standing in the front of a tour bus. I was standing in the back of a tour bus. And it's like, that's it. I'm done.

Nothing else. And during those three months, were you guys in connection, contact communication? Really casual. Very casual. Yeah. Catherine set me some music. She'd be making some music in her band. And I was side-sent her a bit of music and there was nothing, no hidden agenda in it. We just, I think we knew. We really knew instinctually and actually we never really talked about this to keep

enough distance between the two of us. Well, there was a lot of distance. To where when we did come together. It was in London here. Yeah. Yeah, you knew that something, we had that. We're like, we know this is going to be like an almost holy thing, but we need some time to get our shit together, so that when we get together, neither of us hurts each other.

I think, yes, we did that. Or it compromises our own integrity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was like a really, like we wanted to separate from our former lives well so that we could step into our future. Yeah, because we wanna enjoy telling the story, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I do, yeah. Did you both have that full sight? What would you say? She was more mature about it than me? I was like what the fuck? I just want to see you I made and held the line That's right. That's right. I'm really Grateful because it is a story. I love to be able to tell And I feel really good about telling it now in hindsight

It was too important and I remember thinking you were too important. Like this is not something to mess with. Yeah. And you met on a book, tell, right? Yes, me. Super sexy, a librarians convention. Yeah. Whoa.

2000 librarians. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking about that moment. So there were like seven writers lined up on this day. And then there was maybe 2000 light bears. It was the hugeest ballroom ever. And then they, and Abby. Okay, so seven writers and Abby. And this was like at the height she was just retiring. So, and so then they said,

okay, you can all come up for to get your book signed. So then all the seven of us writers sat there. And there was one line of probably I think it was so awkward. Because I was like, I wonder who I think I was cool. And there was no one in my life. So I just had to be like, and I'm just not doing signatures right now and like walk out.

It wasn't quite like that. It was like that. I mean, listen, I'm not a writer by trade, but here I was trying to like sell my book to the other librarians of the world. I hadn't even finished my book. So they all had their books. Oh wow. And I just had like like a cover sheet. She was deciding whether to actually tell the truth in her book, whether to talk about addiction. And she came up to me in the hallway. We were walking. We had never spoken before. We had. I was already in love with her, but because,

you know, you it was love of a side. It was, well, now I see it as desire at first sight. I thought it was love like magical mystical Disney love. It was. It was, but I think, but now that the drugs have worn off in the brain, you know, not the drugs, but the science, the chemistry in her brain. Yeah. It was love at first sight. But she, we were walking through the hallway and she stopped me and she knew that I had an addiction background because she read all the little blurbs about the people who were going to be there. And she was like, I'm really, I don't know if you've, I don't know if you've heard like what happened to me. I'm like, I don't, where would I have heard, like what? I don't do sports. I don't know where to talk about it.

Like what? And she was like, on ESPN. And I was like, no, no, I haven't watched ESPN. She had just gotten into UI and it was a really hard time for her. But she was so terrified to talk about addiction. She was thinking about putting it in the book. Because for somebody who's like a shiny Captain America type, sports type, they have to be perfect. It was so weird for me to hear because as people in music or

or writer I'm like so what? Yeah. Everybody has addiction. Yeah. What is there even a ride about? It was the first time anybody in my life had ever given me advice that didn't require me to be perfect in order to stay where I was. Right. And I just remember she touched my arm, electric. And I was like, what the fuck? And then she goes, I have a rap sheet as long as your arm. Like in the real world, we like real people. And I was like, oh, so that's that was my wink.

Yeah, that's pretty good. That's pretty good. So the tour bus, the wink of the smart person. Right. The wink of words. The smock that's my baby. Let's see. Well, I didn't have like a blackjack table. Oh my god. It's pretty cool. It's all around. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class.

My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing,

and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts. So when you saw Catherine, when you saw Brandy on the tour bus, when you, did you also feel like, oh, shit, something is happening?

I mean, not in that moment, but I felt it actually prior. I remember like I was on this greyhound in bus traveling to see her and dedication. I know. I know. I got on a fucking, excuse me. I got on a place like a hamburger. So that was love, obviously. Yes.

But I remember feeling really nervous, like, really nervous and I didn't have an appetite and that's when I know there's something wrong with me. And yes, I love food. I love food, yeah. But no, I do remember the bus and I do remember it kind of becoming obvious that it was like a mutual Attraction and that maybe there was hope for us It all felt a bit hopes at the time Okay, you do have a

Okay, so hope less at the time because you were in different places. Different countries. When did you decide, okay, I'm gonna freaking move to America and live in a commune in the woods with no heat. There's no, I make a sheet. This is me. The fire gets made every day. Which is so awesome. Can you tell us about your house? Tell us about your house.

Well, it's a log cabin. A log cabin for hills of the cascade mountains. I get that right. Yep. And it's a really beautiful place. It's really humble and there's a wood stove and you feel like you're going a bit back in time. Wow.

And it's just really cozy and it's beautiful all year round. It's just... So you split your own wood and you create your own heat? Yeah, everything of that. There's no heat like it. And there's no heat like it. It's like forced air just blows stuff around. It just feels...

I don't like the way it feels. I like kind of radiant heat. And she does too, because that's all all the cobbledy streets of England. Hicklty people in the grey houses. You really gotta stay conditioning of coming out. Ben and that's dryers. We have radiators for warm water. We have to stay in cold water.

I'm just warm water. I don't know what you'll be doing with that right now. So there's this wood stove, you know, I've lived in the South for 21 years as the wood stove right in the middle of the room. And the room is everything's in kind of one room. There's like a little loft with a couple of bedrooms,

the kids are in and everything, but the most part, this is just big wood stove in the middle of the house. And we just make a fire and keep it going. I mean, I keep a fire going for like three weeks. Oh my God. And then just let it go out to clean the wood stove. So when it's really cold, what happens in the middle of the night? Well, you know,

you pack a wood stove, especially when you get really, really used to for all these years, in such a way and you close down the dampener in it to where it stars the fire of oxygen, just enough to keep it warm. But there's like not flame and blazing and everything. So when you wake up in the fire of oxygen just enough to keep it warm, but there's like that flame and blazing and everything So when you wake up in the morning you just introduce the air and it goes lights itself back up This is a metaphor out of here. This is a really good metaphor. Wow. What what do you guys fight about the most? in the lung cabin Well, it's the splitting of all the wood of course We have a bucket of dysfunction. And they complement

each other actually. I have a good fighter. We fight all the time. I never seen you fight. Well, a little bit. The cute bicker things like dishes are wonderful. But no, we don't like, we don't want for anybody to think that there's anything unnatural. We'll have a natural what having a good route like we. Yeah. So'll have a natural, what happened to a good route. Like we, yeah, we're going to be about what was your last like actual? We are having a conflict. We are going to have to work through not just like, you know, a housekeeping one, but like a real one. Normally, you know, Christmas is an interesting time, you know.

We typically fight around that stuff. We fight about alone time. She needs it, I don't. And she doesn't need it from me, which is weird. Like if I'm there, she still feels alone. But like, do you learn about that? I'm hoping. I'm just very okay to mention it myself.

But like, you know, I want company. I remember like being a kid, like my favorite sound was gravel under car wheels. It comes like from here. I can't surprise me today. And I'll change everything. Like if you come for dinner, I might not want you to leave for three days, you know?

And Catherine's just like, what the hell is wrong with you? Yeah, Catherine, my, that's my favorite sound too, but it's because people are sleeping. We believe in you. I like company. I just, I like to know when people are showing up and when they're gonna leave as well. That's important information.

But yeah, we've learnt to like live with each other around that kind of thing. But big fights have come of that, you know, I want family to come and stay. And she thinks that we need some family time away from other family or whatever. So we've had big fights about that. We've thought about COVID. Oh God. You know, neither one of us hates to not be in control of a situation or not know what's going to happen. I don't know. We're just like we're together all the time. We get that.

Yeah, you too, Musco. Yeah, yeah. What about you guys? What's your most constant fight? We fight about control. Like, I tend to be a very controlling person. And so Abby is uncontrollable. And that is like, you know, which bends first

in a peniturable force or the limits. It's not, I know, which which bends first the impenetrable force or the limits. It's not I think has been interesting, but I think we fight mostly about how we fight. Yes. So it doesn't matter. Oh my God. The fight. Like it doesn't matter what the problem is. It's been after the problem.

We go into this pattern where I'm trying to be right. Mm-hmm. I don't know. what are you doing? She often goes to shame. So like if, so there's something happens. Like Abby dropped something and we're fighting about dropping. She'll be like, I'm the worst person in the world.

I can't believe I did that. And so then I have to be like, no, you're like such a good person. And then I'm pissed because I'm like, wait, how do we end up here? Where I'm talking about what are the pictures? Are you talking about the fucking things? That's good're like such a good person. And then I'm pissed because I'm like, wait, how do we end up here? I'm talking about what are the pictures. Are you talking about the fucking thing? That's a good picture. That's a very right kind of thing. And then we feel like we have these bulletproof jackets. I feel like when you get hurt, get hurt, hurt is like what do you do with hurt? So then you put something on, right? Like Chase

always put on humor. He'd just started laughing about everything nervously and then, or one of our kids would go to apathy. I don't care, whatever. So what do you think your bulletproof vest is that covers hurt in a fight? Well, I think you kind of hit on the head with the shame bit. I put a shame jacket on. But at the end of it, like, what is that

all mean? I think it's a power play. How do I get out of this to win? Right? Same with you. Control is a power thing. And like, Glennon, if we were to get into a real argument, we'll 100% of the time win. Because she is very smart and very good with words and will come up with 72 different cases in which this just happened. The point was proven and that's where we start from. This happened yesterday. We were walking. We got another argument and it was that. She said, okay, you want to be right. Wow. Go ahead. I'm not in this to be right here. Like, I'm telling you right now, whether it's right or wrong, what you just said hurt me. And she's like, can you understand that my feelings are hurt?

That's what actually, Can you just stop and understand that my feelings are hurt? That's really, that's really good. I wish I'd say when my feelings are amazing. Wow, that's really, the result that we get from me would be like, excellent. That's what my result wasn't that good. Well, you're awesome.

I was like, you're still stuck in it. One more time, I want you to listen to me explain why what I did was right. So what did you, what do you say when your feelings are hurt? Like how do you express yourself? I had expressed myself. I'm, I have a rest in development emotionally. I can only express one emotion, which is typically anger.

So I won't feel sadness. It's just an extension of sadness anyway, anger. But that's how I would display my emotion. And I actually don't know at the time that I'm sad, at all. I just feel angrily. So I make sure in tolerance. Yeah. I make sure't know at the time that I'm sad at all. I just feel anxious. So I make sure in tolerance. Yeah, I make sure in tolerance.

Exactly how she's feeling all the time. Oh, that's good. That's a good strategy. She's super helpful. And if it's not like worthy of, like, being disproportionate, I say things like, get a hold of yourself. Oh, that's pretty good. You totally calm down. Have you read a new paper lately? Pull yourself together. These are all my perspectives. Yeah, it's my favorite one. Wow. So you say pull yourself together.

Yeah. And then what do you say after that? Calm down on my favorite ones. Well, I typically, so you go to shame, that's your armor. I actually fall asleep. She's wet. I've got it. This hair comes down to sleep. Because she's so brilliant and intellectual and measured and articulate and seems to have all the answers all the time and seems to have control of herself. So I get so exhausted by it not being able to articulate myself because I'm feeling all the things, because I'm all about nerves and feelings and she's like up here. So I have to fall asleep.

It's just so physically exhausting and mentally draining. I mean, it always happens in the car, which is maybe think she can't drive. So I never let her drive because I'm afraid she'll fall asleep and I'm like, oh, it's because we always fight in the car and you fall asleep. And then you wake up and you're like, oh, what should we have for dinner? Like everything. It's like everything's great when I wait to sleep. That's her that's her palette cleanser It's just a 10 minute nap or whatever I I I love the way that she processes Feelings and I don't think she has a rest of development at all

I think she's gonna live to be 110 years old because of the way that she walks through the world. That's amazing. And it's like, I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with Catherine at all except for all the things she thinks are wrong with me. That's a good one. Well, one of the things that I struggle with is Glenin. Because... Every wants to get back to that. No, I think that this is important because the feeling's big. Like, Glenin feels like the world's pain a lot. But she struggles in her own personal life

to actually be able to access those emotions. So sometimes I'm hurt, I'm like literally crying. I'm upset, I'm crying and she That it something shuts off or shuts down inside of her where she just goes completely cold It's so terrible. Don't you know what I think it is? What is that? Arrested development You're perfect, but also I think I've never said the title I'm also, I think, I've never said this out loud before, but I think that I was raised as a girl,

a very girly girl. So I was raised to be in a heteronormative relationship. And I was raised with toxic femininity, which expects toxic masculinity, and in a marriage, that means I am vulnerable and you are not. And if you start to get vulnerable, I'm scared of shit because wait a minute. Who's gonna protect us? No, you can't do that. Like what's happening there? Who's gonna protect us? Whoa. I think it's like a deep like, it's like that thing where where women want their male partners to be vulnerable because that's

like the buzzword right now. But actually when you see it, the most feminist women inside are like, be a fucking man. It's this weird thing when you're taught that you have to be passive, you need a dominant person. It allows you to be passive because you know that there is a dominant. But I have both. I'm dual, right? And so when I go there, I say soft or when I actually have real like emotions, Glennens, she'll, I can see it on her face like. It's a heartening. Like, I can feel it, but I know that's not her. Like, I know better than that. So I have to like, I have to explain my real true depth of sadness. I'm sorry, I'm working on it. I know, and you're doing a good job.

Thank you. Did you have overly emotional, did you have to comfort an overly emotional parent or anything like that? No, but I was, I feel, I think I was raised in a loving but very volatile household. And so when someone else is that I love, it sounds like my sister too,

by the way. When someone starts expressing very strong emotions, whether it's like yelling or crying, it makes me freeze up. Oh yeah. That, that, and I believe my whole thing is feel at all. Like I, then when someone to me close to me does it, I'm completely stunned. And not with a kiss. You're, you're, it's a protection. It's a safety thing. This is how a control is how it feels. I want to talk, you told us about your house.

The other special thing is that you live with, you have, you really do have like a family situation that's not just your little family. Tell us about that. Well, it's cool. It's like my band that I've been in for over 20 years. Like their twin brothers, Tim and Phil, and one of them married my little sister. And so like 21 years ago, I bought this five acre property

with the log cabin on it that I still live in now, but there's all this property around it because it's like that in the middle of nowhere. And like as our family has grown, people have started to buy property around it in the band. And it grew to 95 acres. So Tim and Phil moved on with my sister and Tim's wife and they had kids and then all the

kids are growing up together. And then because bands are so, it can be so insular if they choose to be. Catherine has two sisters that lived in Boston on the East Coast. And when they graduated high school, they would kind of come out on the road and hang out with the band or sell merch or whatever. And then our band's cellist married Catherine's sister. And then the engineer married her other sister. And they all moved to the compound too. Wait, I did not know that. Each had one child.

So we live with Catherine sisters, my brother, my twin brothers, my sister. And, you know, so all in all, it's eight kids now on 95 acres, where we just walk to each other's houses or take four whillers or whatever. And, you know, lately we've actually been thinking about how we can continue to get together because we've gotten, so it's actually getting so overwhelming for my house, which is now the smallest house because it's nothing's changed, you know, since all those years ago, to get, but I, you know, I'm like, I'm destined to be in the young matriarchs, like I wind up cooking everything and we wind up in my house and it's like it's too many people now Well, can't you just build right next to we're talking about it like a big barn or something Pull down dishwasher like they have the elementary school, you know

That's so good. The holidays are hilarious. We have to like stage all of the cooking like if I do it roast dinner It's oh my goodness. It's like I have to do like You know three trays of roast potato and I have to cook like you know three different turkeys and three different ovens We have to go get the drum throne and the piano bench and all these different things and the kids chairs and everything It's like you have to feed Kim too, you know, you know, yeah Kim Brandy's eggs everything. And we have to feed Kim to, you know, you know, we have to feed Kim anyway. Kim, explain Kim. Um, Kim, Brandy's ex, Brandy's ex. She lives next door.

Okay. So Kim, okay, because that's normal. Yeah, that's the one that I want to know about that. I love that one out. I want to know with you two. So do you not deal with jealousy in your marriage? Like, you live in your ex lives in a house next to your deal. Yeah. I just you guys are very evolved about this for real.

But like how do you do not? Are you neither of you jealous people? We are about each other. Like if I thought that someone had a crush on Catherine and she had a crush on somebody that was actually meaningful, I would lose my mind. Yes. I would become a danger to that person. Okay. That makes me feel better. Thank you.

We're that way. So I just wanted to give you both that one. Yeah. We both are. I mean, I've always said she's not jealous, but what do you think? I'll let you speak for yourself. Well, you just got to this gay world. And so there's a part of me that you're naive até when it relates to other women that come into your life. I'm always just like, because I have not only gayed art, but I can sense energy really well.

I'm like, be careful there. And also I have to admit that I have a lot of PTSD and getting cheated on a lot. So it was just the nature of never being home. That's so weird. Why would I think that it could be in a relationship that I never was home for? Never. Say, yeah, it's like, it surprises me now

that I could think that that would work. But anyways, yes, I do get jealous, but mostly because, and I don't mean this in an offensive way, that I could think that that would work. But anyways, yes, I do get jealous. But mostly because, and I don't mean this in an offensive way, because I don't think that you're paying attention to some of that. To vibes. Yeah. I don't even know if you know what to look for in that. Well, I didn't know about the wink until today.

You just stay. But here's the thing you do with men. Well, that's because I, yeah. It's just like that. Oh, no, oh gosh. Like, because it's repellent. Well, and then coming from the other side, I, when we were talking in the last episode about being

newer, the hard things about coming out later and coming out earlier, I don't know what the boundaries are. Like I was, I was, I was a, I I was a good, I had friends that were women. And like we didn't, we just, we didn't have boundary. I mean, we didn't make out, but like we, we were very close. And like now suddenly I'm supposed to read things in a different way than I ever have before with women. So I can see your point. I guess what I'm saying. Yeah, but I think you'd know. Yeah, I think I would know too.

I'll know first. I'll be on my first. So I answered the question, yes, Abby is jealous. Yeah. From the first. I already had a conversation. It's obvious. So, but you are. And are you jealous?

I mean, every lesbian in the whole wide world wants branding. Yeah. So it's very hard for me. I think I'd have a real problem if I really brandy. I think I'd have a problem if I was in a, I don't think I'm an in a, a jealous person. Um, and I do have to accept that there's a lot of women falling over brandy and, and I just see that as a compliment.

But no, if there was ever anything meaningful, I would be very similar to Abby, because I think Brandy may not see things straight away, just because of how intoxicating and how magnetic she is and how her profession people romanticize singers and artists, and they read too much into the lyrics. And there's like, the fatrations happen very quickly. I mean, I've probably said to you a few times, like, oh,

you know, just pay attention to that person. Yeah, and you're always right. Really? Yeah, she's always right. Okay, that's good for me to know. That's good. I mean, the very first person I told that I was going to ask Katherine and Mary Me was camp, which was so excited. And she's the one that told me to go and and make something more of what of what she could see that Catherine was to me. She did. She was the biggest support of our relationship. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say that Kim's like the most evolved person in the world or anything, but she is, you know, special to me. And she and she loved me most of my, has loved me most of my life now. We're a big part of my life.

And so she just saw, she's like, yeah, the Catherine thing, this is it. This is when you go. Wow. That's really special in it. Oh, it was cool. It was, and yeah, now she lives next door. And like, that's why it's not awkward.

Right. Sometimes it is, like, she has the compulsions. What do you mean? Like walk it into a bedroom and be manned. I know. Catherine, little compulsions. What do you mean? Like walk it into a bedroom and be manning. No. Half an a it and half. Are you serious?

Are you serious? Are you sure? Yes. She walks into a bedroom every morning. Well, yeah. She won't mind. She'll think this is funny. No.

This is amazing. Or like if we go somewhere, it's like, I drive because I have to drive everything because no one can drive me. And Kim has all these little caveats, like built in, like she says she's got sleep at me, which I don't think she does. And she says that she, do you think it's weird that Kim and Katherine

both fall asleep when you talk with you? Because that's a coincidence, I'm just sitting in a pattern. She, no, but I don't think that's some thought. One thing I do know is that she gets in the front seat next to me and then we fight the whole drive and Catherine sits on the back seat and laughs. Kim gets casted. Everywhere we go. It's me and Kim in the front seat.

And I'm not allowed to drive apparently. Like parents, there's Randy White knuckling it with Kim and then I'm like the kid in the back and I'm watching my parents argue. It's like so fucked up. This is your time alone. This is a dream time. This is your time that you got to your side. And I also fall asleep. You're watching them go like, so you don't, Abby, Abby and I have now have finally decided

after five years of trying to make it work that I just actually refueled. I will never drive when Abby's in the car. Thank God. Like it's done. It's over. It's over. I made that decision about month ago too. I'm just not doing it. It, it's done. It's over. So it's good. I made that decision about a month ago too. I'm just not doing it. It's not worth it.

Someone's going to die. I told you I was sorry about that. I told you I was sorry. Are you a driver? Are you what is it called a backseat driver? Is that what you do? Do you scare her? Like, Abish scares me?

Do you? Yes. Yes. I mean, to be fair, I'm genuinely terrified. Same. And to be fair, how'm genuinely terrified same and to be fair How many cars have you hit in the last? How many? This is a

How many times have you hit this is our car? I'm okay driving here. We moved and the streets are thinner, right? And so it's just like, they're not thinner than the cars. Just as well when I drive. Some of us just have things that we're good at, about some of us have things that we're not. It's okay. Well, it came first because I I never had a complaint about my driving and I have a I didn't have any accidents or anything and I drove on the other side of the road and I have a I didn't have any accidents or anything and I drove on the outside the road And I thought I was doing really well and I only deviated to the wrong side of the road once

And you'll do it that'll be the She wasn't even in the cob by the way, but now I feel like she made me a really bad driver She's putting me on edge all the time and and thank you me second There's something there. That's true. And by the way, when have all of my accidents been in just recently? I have lost my confidence. I've lost my confidence.

I've lost my confidence. I've lost my confidence. Can I ask you both a serious question? Yeah. When you're driving with Brandy and you're driving with me, would you prefer to be driving? Or would you prefer to be on this question? And that hasn't just seen.

Let's be honest now. I would prefer not to be driving? Or would you prefer to be on this question? And it hasn't been. Let's be honest now. Yeah. I would prefer not to be driving. See? Because you have to be on the set. I've been on the set. You have to be driving because you are sleeping. And you are sleeping.

Every single drive, it could be five minutes, it could be an hour. You are sleeping immediately. It's the heatiest thing that's ever got down. We're the biggest electrician. We're the biggest electrician. Yeah. minutes it could be an hour you are sleeping immediately. She's done. She never got your help. Oh, the biggest complaint I have. I'm not getting teet. Yeah, it can't play.

And I have a bad counter time. I think she will fall asleep. I mean, if I feel asleep, yeah, why in the window down? You're so fine. And I can take it to her and say, is this spiritual genius? This sleeping thing is the answer. Oh, it really works. Yeah.

It really works. She can really sleep this girl. Yeah. So what ways do you feel like you are the most similar? That's a good question. We've never been all set before. We're actually similar in so many ways. I think we're both artists. And you know, there's a whole lot of who's going to protect us going on sometimes because when we transition into that place of being artists, there's no adult in the room. Oh wow, that's cool. Like one. Give me an example of what that looks like.

Well, I think you have to tune out and go into another place when you create. And we have two kids, so we'm mostly at the same time. And that's interesting. That's an interesting scenario, quite often, that will be its source of frustration for me, because I always feel like naturally that space should belong to Brandy first and foremost, because it's, you know, it's our bread and butter really. Whereas for me, it's more of a hobby, I guess.

We're really sitting there, we're highly sensitive to each other's writing. Like, yeah, my wife is so cool. Like, there have been some times where, well, not sometimes, every time, if I, and I don't write very often, but if I do go glossy-eyed and I wind up at that piano and I, I will look around 20 minutes later and every light in the house will be off. There'll be a candle and glass of wine and she'll be gone and so will the kids. Well, I think I'm witnessing. I'm like, she did it again. Well, I'm witnessing something that's coming from, you know, somewhere.

You're witnessing something that's coming from somewhere. Tell me what you mean. Well, she would say it comes from God, but I'm, you know, a British atheist. So it's half of me get on that. You're agnostic. Agnostic, yes, sorry, whoops. It's so interesting. I do that every time I have a sense of you being a little bit very agnostic.

Agnostic, I'm not saying anything, but very. Yes, I believe in something. I don't know what it is. Agnostic. But, no, and she's not a disciplined writer, and she doesn't write all the time. It's very whimsical. It's very spontaneous to the point where she could just be going past the piano and just go plonk and then be like, oh, and she'll sit

down and then she'll write this masterpiece. So for me, that's a really precious thing and I'll do anything I can to facilitate it because I know how these things come and go. And you know, you should seize the moment with creativity, even if it's inconvenient, you know, that's super magic. Beautiful. That reminds me of the real key thing that's love is protecting each other's solitude. Yeah. I thought you were going to tell a story that reminds me of a time when you did this. No, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.'re going to tell them I built my own cabin or do I have to? Oh yeah, she did. Yeah. Tell me what happened. Tell me what happened. I mean, come on. Well we live in a very small log cabin and I was after a couple of years of marriage and you know, two kids or whatever, I was starting to crave some space and we have a very busy

house. Lots of people coming and going all the time. Her favorite sound the driveway wheels on the on the road. And I was going solely insane at that point. So she was very intuitive about it and she suggested I needed a room of one zone, right? But you knew all definitely didn't have that. And she created that space for me. She me and those Amish guys. Yeah, it's the poison like a log cabin with you also. Okay, from Montana, Hey, Mission Jables. Stop it. I swear I think serious. No, that's serious. Amish, Mission Jables. Okay. I came out, stayed on the property for about five days and we built the cutest log cabin

for Catherine. It's filled with instruments and all the things that she likes. And she goes out there and writes all the time. And I just instilled blinds because I realized like I could still see all the things happening. And I could still see my children. So I have to like have a blind pulled down as well. Yeah. I had to work in the closet. Yeah. That's right. And then when I thought I'd need an office because I'm a grown up. Right. So when we moved houses, I got a big office. And I couldn't do it. I got to a closet.

I went all untamed, even in our new house in the closet. In the closet of the office. Office closet. It was like a little troll, like underneath the eve. And like, and that's one little teeny table and had to be with. Because of that, I would still see, like, remember my life.

I can't remember my life. So you write, how often do you write? Let's make it to hear all the brandy stuff. Oh, just whenever I can, you know, I, it's not a priority for me. I always choose work and kids and brandy and, but on the rare occasion, I'm disciplined enough to be like, I'm going to that log cabin to write.

I typically have a great time and end up being really prolific and productive and I love it. What do you love to show it about? I like to write for other people. I find that really interesting to put my head in, walking somebody else's shoes and try and write for somebody else. That's a really good exercise as a writer

if you feel like you're uninspired by your own happy life. writer if you feel like you're uninspired by your own happy life, you know? I just, what I write about my kids about Brandy, whatever's on my mind. And do you not have, because one of the things we talk about is like, people say, well, there's a kite in every relationship in a kite holder. And like, the kite holder is the one who holds the one who's out there and doing all the thing. And that's kind of bullshit, right because Then there's one person who always has to be grounded, right? So We you know, and with us. There's like somebody who's staying grounded and then switch

Sometimes, yep. Do you guys feel that or do you not have a desire to be as out there? I don't I don't know you don't have anything that's like I wish I was doing that. No, no. No. It makes me so nervous watching her have to do these terrifying things all day long all the time. I'm much happier to just support and watch and you know so now I don't I don't I don't have a desire to do that. But I'm very immersed in it and interested and inspired by it. And I thought, yeah, so no, I don't want to get on stage and do that.

So terrified. I've never seen her. We went to your, I was about to say coming out party. Well, yeah, the album, the release of the album, we listened to the album. That night was so ridiculous. Well, that fun. that was so awesome. It was, okay, so listening party,

so it was a bunch of people in a backyard. And it was the first time anybody had heard the new album. Yeah. And you performed some of it on the ocean. People just sat and couches and listened to it. And I think it was the first time a lot of us had been out in long times. Yeah. And seeing all the amazing things outside, everybody in the mac and cheese to it. And I think it was the first time a lot of us had been out in long times. And seeing all the things that was outside, everybody in the mac and cheese.

Yes, really good. And listening to that, I'm a bit of a first time. You rented sofas. And so we were sitting on sofas outside and cappin was so cutely nervous for you. That's what I remember. I actually came over and she said, why did she want to do this crazy shit? And why she was so sweet and so supportive and so beautiful. And that was the night that everybody figured out that this album was going to be insane. It was so good and so

moving. I was really focused on the catchy guys where I was like, it's really important to me, you know, what you guys think. And it was really important to me and Catherine that you were there. You know, and it was, that's why, you know,. And that's why you don't get out of it. That's how we set you demos. That's why you're an important part of our lives. And when you guys see you guys as kind of pivotal peers, don't we? Yeah, absolutely.

Same. There's a lot of similarities to in our relationships. And it's weird. It switches. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Another reason, another thing that we struggle with is when we do have some sort of disagreement. This is now where we begin. Right, so we're done with that. So, um, that thing we're ever. Yeah. Forever, we begin. Right, so we're done with that. So that thing we're ever. Forever, we don't go backward. We start here and this is where we start. Well, I feel like if you work really hard, you know how to argument, it's kind of like conflict

is like you're working something out together. Yeah, what's the point of it? If you're not getting to a new understanding, right? And then I want to move on from that understanding. I don't want to go backwards anymore, because it's progress. Having the same fight over and over again is a struggle for me. I'm like, let's do it.

Do you have the book? What is it called? It's like how? How? Let your song go down. No, no. That's my lyric based on the book. But the book is called like, how to not talk about your marriage or how to.

No, how to not talk about your fight, your problems. What was it? I don't know, but the whole the whole premise of the book is like, you know, instead of the the concept of like, don't ever let the sun go down your anger. Like you should always let the sun go down your anger. Oh, right, right. Just let something pass for a long time before you talk about it. Then you know, if it's still really important or not, just go to sleep people. Just go to sleep, people. Just go back to the spiritual to the truth. Just go back to the spiritual to the truth. Well, we've talked about that before my sister.

I like, what is that rule so stupid? Like, keep talking about it. Because you're at your worst. Like, you're talking about it's very sensitive. So you should keep talking about it when you're exhausted. Yeah, like what's- That's your worst self-fiction. The outcome happening in that situation is not going to happen.

We had an argument the other day, what was it? We ended up laughing at each other. We were still in the middle day, what was it, we ended up laughing at each other. We were still in the middle of it, and we started cracking up laughing. And I was like, well, okay, that one ended in the middle of it. I can't remember. I said something like, I barked at you, and you barked at me, I had said something rude,

and I'm like, well, you really pissed me off, and I was probably Kim. And you were like, well, that's what you do. You do this, and I don't talk to you for two days. And I was like, well, that's what you do. You do this. And I don't talk to you for two days. I was like, well, can we just skip that? We ended up being this like laughing thing or you were just laughing. And I was like, oh, that worked.

That's the best. Wasn't it a stair parallel who says sometimes when she's in the middle of a fight, she just lay down on the ground? Right. Because that like injecting humor into how ridiculous something like you can't keep moment and remo mentem going on when something absurd happens. Exactly. We get to that point where we keep saying the same thing.

I'll say the same thing like five times. She'll say the same thing five times. And then all of a sudden we'll go, we just need a moment. And then we take like a two minute break. We just don't say a word for like a couple minutes. And then we're like, I think we're good. Are we good? And it's like we're not coming to a resolution. Nobody's like winning here. We're just,

let's just like move on. Yeah. I think that that might be where like the 40s and 50s are at of age in terms of because it's like the more I know is the more I realize I have to just accept I know is the more I realize I have to just accept you for exactly who you are and have no reason or need for you to ever change because history has it. It's just like never. I'm never changing. You're never changing until I want to change, you know, until you want to change. What do you want for your family and your relationship for this next chapter? Like what's your dream next? Well for the pandemic to be over first and foremost obviously My dream for my family is that we just find a way to stay together. That's mine too

And like let her answer this, let her don't do it. Stay together, stay together, stay together. Well done. I must have picked it up for me. No, yeah, just to manage to stay together in a sane way in the midst of all this chaos and crazy times and working really hard and just, yeah, just keeping us together. Do you mean physically? Yeah, we like to experience things all together and even even not the great things you know it's we all of our traveling and our music and you know our activism we like to do it as

the four of us for as long as we can because we know that soon these kids will aggregate soon. They're going to have their own Yeah, you know things and they might not want to come on the road and the time is coming when you know They're going to say mom. I want to be with my friends or I want to go to the school I want to do this thing and since now's not that time I just want us to stay together for as long as we can yeah It's so beautiful how you do that. Did you go everywhere together? We try to, yeah, I mean, it's not great a lot of the time, you know, they get overtired, I get erudged with all branding, it's, you know, beside herself and it's, you know, we're all in this hotel

and wondering why on earth we're not in our nice cozy log cabin. But, you know, there's something beautiful in all the chaos. I think, you know. I think so too. Yeah. We just keep doubling down on that code dependence. Just double down. Yes. Yeah. Just totally. I love it.

I love it because what are you going to do? Go have these experiences that change you and then that's how it's the growing apart, right? Mm-hmm. And then you're trying to explain it to each other. Mm-hmm. When I want to throw it like we get to the end of the day and we're supposed to be, you know, having healthy relationships or checking on the phone. I can't check it on the phone. You're the worst one person. I'm like, if they're here and I can't do both,

I can't translate life. It's hard to translate life to someone. So you either have to do it together. Yeah. I know what you mean, and I will not call. And it's like, she thinks it's a punishment. That's like, if she doesn't come with me, I will not call. It is a punishment. She becomes very despondent. She won't call, she won't call. She's a punishment.

She's really beautiful. She did this yourself. You did this yourself. You did this yourself, yeah. What about, what about, what do you want to be your family? Oh God, I mean, our family is changing so much. What's that like? Cause Jesus gone now.

You know, he just came back and I chased him. He's gone for the first time. And we just had him back for the first time. And it was really emotional for me because I think I had this fear and I told him this, the calf went through, that when you raise them your way, right? Like you teach them all the things and you teach them your way your way of thinking and how you think about the world and like you do your best and then you send them away. And you realize when they leave, they're going to learn about other families

and how they did it and other ideas and like, like they're going to start judging you for real because you can't really judge your situation until you're out of it. So you see another situation. Do you talk to other people who are no, they're not near their parents to like, oh no, I don't know what you're saying. Well, I feel like my parents. And so it's scary because it's like this, it feels, it's not, but it feels like a test

of everything that you've done for the past. Like, send them out and see if they still like you, if they still respect you, if they still go, you know, and like, I can get so weird with Chase, because he's the first like, he'd come into the room and I'd like turn it from the real housewives to have documenting on turtles. So he would think I'm like, no, literally. And like literally literally, literally, she was in the bathtub in our bedroom, in our, in our bedroom, in our bathroom.

And I was upstairs in the top floor. And she texted me and she's like, what are you watching? And I'm like, my show, nobody's up there. I'm by myself. She said, I would prefer if you don't watch any killing or any kind of anything in the common areas. But you guys, the guns, like, it's showing you what you're watching. It's called last kingdom, commercial. It's what I do.

I'm alone. Like, do you fear? I saw, you know, the Instagram of you in the bathtub looking like there was not an ounce of energy left in your soul. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, if somebody's visiting, and you, especially somebody as important

as your child and you set yourself aside for long enough, you're going to think it's them, you're sick of and ready for the dream. And so really, you're sick of not being able to be yourself. That's right. I mean, Brandy, that's the story of my life. Wow. That's right. One time my friend said, we're going to New York to go to this meeting and I said, I don't know. It was like a fancy thing. And it was for publishers. I said, what am I supposed to do? And she said, just be yourself. And I said, I don't, it was like a fancy thing and it was for publishers to me. I said, one of my supposed to do, and she said, just be yourself. And I said, I don't know how much longer I can keep that up. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. So anyway, the point is he came home and he still loves us and he just hung on with us. He wanted to be a plus on her report card. Yeah. On her report card. Yeah. On her own.

On her own report card. Wow. It wasn't like a report card. It's just like an energy that when you want them to come home and feel like home. Like you're a resting place. Yeah. You know, like you're a charging station

or like a safe good place to come back to. And that's how it felt. So I don't know. It's just I guess with family, it's like... And we both are keenly aware of being in an environment in high school where you couldn't, where I couldn't be my full self. So going to college was a, was a, was paradise. It was like, it was like going to the place I could finally become myself. And so going home for the holidays,

or I never went home for summer for break. I just stayed in college because that's where I felt like myself. And so it's just really important for us as parents that our kids can feel like they're true, full self at their house. That's what I mean. Like I'm just like, do you feel like this is the place where you're held and free? Yes. Or do you feel like you left and now you can be free?

That's right. And so that's what you're trying to figure out. And as a parent, you're kind of like, hoping that they, because you don't know, you only hope. And then when you kind of get confirmation, oh, no, they do feel free. I did it. How I wanted to do it. Because the way that might be impacted might be different.

This is an elaborate way for you to tell us we have to accept the American girl doll. But these are the kinds of things you have to think about now with kids that are this age. Yeah. It's because I mean, I think about this all the time. How do you, how do you keep them wanting to be with you? That's right. That's what it is. My entire life is just trying to keep them wanting to be with me.

It's pathetic. You just keep telling them that they're perfect. And then whoever they show up every day is exactly who you want to be around. It's all it. That's it, right? Because it's not. Life plan is a four-wheelers or zip line.

Okay. That will be probably also sprinkled within with... But what if you have a pelvic child who doesn't want to go on... If you said that to me, what did you just say? Say that again? Like, my plan is like four-wheelers or zip lines. Unsee? Nothing.

Well, there's my husband. Or her husband. If I have a husband. I will say, if you come round to me in Mommy's house, we're going to have Glinn and Annabee. Okay. There you go. Move the minute.

Get it. Yes. Look how smart we are. It's true that Annabee want to come round. Who's what if, and I just pose this as a question, what if Elijah or Evangeline are the kind of person that, what if they're just like Uber Femme? Like, so like, like what they might be then feeling in your house is the exact thing that you are feeling. Like, oh, oh, I think so. You know, I think so.

I'm really sensitive to this. Because like what you're talking about is absolutely playing itself out all the time. There are things that are so natural to them. This nurture nature concept is fascinating to me all the time. They have at least at this point in their lives embraced a gender expression that I've got to learn to navigate and Catherine's got to learn navigate and both of us are just like, look at our hands. It's so hard.

Look at her. Yeah. Look at my gay hands. Yeah, look at our gay hands. But, I mean, with the exception of the American Girl Doll, I love it. Yeah, cool. I love it.

Yeah, and I've really taken to like, you know, ordering it when they switched from pajamas to nightgowns. That was a big one for me, because I love little babies in their pajamas. It's the cutest thing you've ever seen. You know, the booties and everything. And they're like, we want nightgowns and we want like lace on these things and frill and it was. And you were able to embrace it. Yeah, it looks like human cupcakes. I mean, last time you guys came and Evangelion came, she had, you guys had gotten her a, like a little silver beret that was Crystal's armor.

Yeah, she gave it to me. Well, you obviously did make me. It's upstairs. Even though you didn't make the book report. No, she gave you. She gave me that precious thing. I'll just never forget when she told you guys were going to play that game and they had a timer on it. It's like so, eventually, and she's like, I don't get timed. Yeah. That was it. I mean, it's that time I real fast. You're like, okay. Yeah. No, I got it. She does not get timed as if I had already been decided by a committee. Yes.

I like it though. She knows. She knows her stipulations. This is like revolutionary. The stuff we're talking about, it says, since two couples just having a conversation. But LGBTQIA dumbesticity and family discussions, they really are radical. The concept of it is radical. I could not have imagined it when Catherine and I got married

illegally without a license all those years ago to think that, you know, not only are we all really married, but we're sending you're talking with kids as atypical parents and every, by every definition, about how to navigate these waters that we are really finally able to get a glimpse at. It's radical. It feels good and feels like home, but also it's pretty crazy. And I think maybe this could have something to do with the homophobia that my mom might have struggled with

during my teenage years. Not knowing if I could... Well, during if I could. If you could ever have a life like that. I could have what she has. Yeah. Because I couldn't then. Almost make you. It was impossible.

On extend a little bit of compassion. Totally. Yeah. I feel that way now. How many that sense of grief is going to become a thing of the past? Because I think that was my mom's default. It was like, am I going to have grandkids today?

Yeah. But yeah, hopefully that's gonna go away. Yeah. Are you really lippin' rad? Yes. One has produced a song with Brandy Carly? Yes, we do know. So I can know.

What? We will let you listen to that right now. Thank you. Thank you. I have loved this song. So fun. Every minute of it. It was amazing.

We can do hard things. Oh, guys. We can do hard things. Oh, guys! We had to do it on a podcast to finally have a real double-tank. But I know, right? I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlyle. So fire I came out the other side I chased is Iur, I made sure I got once money And I continued to believe that I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I want the line

Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak So now A final destination You stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do a heartache

I hit rock bottom it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on man a final destination with land we stopped asking directions

so places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find a way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache This perfect, sure isn't hard, breaks on my mind. We might get lost, but we're only in that. Stop that skiing direction, some places may have never been

And to be loved we need to be loved We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really

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