We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Enneagram: What does your number say about you? with Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober

Episode Date: April 21, 2022

1. What is your Enneagram number–and how does this ancient wisdom explain WHY you do what you do?  2. Why Glennon *really* didn’t want to accept her Enneagram number, and how she finally saw herself clearly in it.  3. How the Enneagram helps Amanda have much more compassion for herself–and how she uses it to understand common patterns in her marriage.  4. Glennon and Amanda use the Enneagram to dissect what is *actually* going on in their conflicts, and how to make each other feel seen and understood. About Ashton: Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober is an author, public speaker, Community Psychologist, and certified Enneagram educator. With a desire to see relationships strengthened and people empowered, she created Enneagram Ashton in early 2019. She is the author of Enneagram for Relationships, The Two of Us: A Three Year Couples Journal, and The Enneagram Made Simple. IG: @enneagramashton To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Hi, babe. Oh, this is going to be so exciting. Hi, yeah.

I'm very good. I'm very good. And I'm very excited about this specific episode. OK, so here's what happened. We put out something out on the Instagram that said, please tell us who you want to hear from. And we can do hard things. Because it's super important to us that this is a conversation

that you're telling us what you want to talk about. We're telling you what we want to talk about and that it's a back and forth. So 33,000 comments later. Literally. It was so amazing. It made me so emotional that day. That's so because two things happened. First of all, Pod Squadron said, here's a really important person in my life who's helped me and who is smart and kind and thoughtful and funny and please meet my friend, whomever or my expert whomever, or which is so beautiful to me. I freaking love it when people go out on a limb to like hook up their friend. Or the second thing that happened was that people would be like,

okay, hi, this is really scary for me, but me. You should talk to me. Yeah. I'm really smart and good at what I do, and you all should talk to me. We have a treasure trove now of people who are doing amazing, beautiful work in their families or their professional lives or wherever that now we get to choose from for the rest of our podcast lives. Repeatedly, a lot of people asked us to do an episode on the NEA Graham. And a lot of those people asked us to talk to anyogram ashden.

Okay. Okay, so first of all, I want to say a couple things. One, we don't really understand the freaking anyogram, so we've had very little experience with this, but we did do our research, some research before this. So we have kind of ideas of what we are. I have 20 years of confused research. Right. So we have kind of ideas of what we are. I have 20 years of confused research. Right. So we're glad to have an expert.

Right. And I resented the NEA Graham for the last week because I really, really don't like to be labeled. And then I found out the first thing that my little number said was that these people really resist labeling. And they feel misunderstood often. So anyway, let us please introduce to the We Can Do Hard Things family, someone you requested, and her name is Ashton Whitmoyer-Ober and she's

a professor, author, public speaker, community psychologist, and certified neogram educator. just and certified NEA Graham educator. She created NEA Graham Ashton in early 2019 and she's the author of NEA Graham for Relationships. The two of us, a three-year couples journal. We need to do that one too. Yeah for sure. Okay and the NEA Graham made simple which just published in January. You can find her on Instagram at at NEA Graham Ashtden. Ashton, hi! Hi! Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here. Glennon, you are one of my top three idols in my life.

I'm not joking. I just want you to know how much of an impact you've had on my life. I went through a divorce when I was 25. One thing that you said, like it's brave if you leave, it's brave if you stay. Just always stuck with me and your little reminders about you've watched my descent now get ready for the rising. If you would have told 25-year-old Ashton, who was posting things that Glenn and Doyle was saying on Facebook so many years ago, that I would be sitting here with you.

It just is a very cool thing. So much love to you. Thanks for having me on. And I'm honored to be able to share this information with your community. Of course, so welcome. Actually, I wanted to circle back because Ash had said you're one of her top three.

So I assume Ash and the other two are Abby and Suspire. Yes, of course. Okay, okay. Ash, what WTF is the NEA Graham? The NEA Graham is really an ancient personality typing system that has been around for like two to 4,000 years. It's really, really old. It started in the middle east and then has like creeped its way over to the US really in the 60s, 70s with technology and social media. It has really just

taken off immensely in the past several years because of that ability to share knowledge and want to really understand each other. So it's a typing system similar to other things like Myers-Briggs, Strength Finders, the Five Love Languages, where it separates people into types, but the biggest difference being that it's about what motivates our behaviors. So it's not about our behaviors. So the three of you could be doing the same exact thing, but having completely different motivations. Okay. Wow.

Okay, so we've been talking about this for a week. For a week. So we're all three of us are here on this podcast doing this interview and having this job. But all three of us are here for different reasons. And when I say three, I know you're here also, Ashen, I'm just talking about me and Abby and sister. Okay. So let's figure that out by the end of this hour, like why the hell based on our numbers,

we are here doing this. Oh, that's good. But can you tell us, Ashton, just, one of the things I love about it is also very relational. Yes. It's not just about who I am, it's about how I interact with other people, how do we know ourselves so that we can know how better to interact with our people.

Yes. Absolutely. And that is honestly why I gravitated towards the end of your gram. It's why I am obsessed with it and have adopted it as a career because I just want people to understand each other. I want people to really be able to understand,

oh, when this person does this thing that might annoy me, I know why, when you person does this thing that might annoy me, I know why. And what's going into that motivation or what's going into the reason why they do that. I love it. Can you go through Asked and just not in a long way, but just tell us there's nine types, right? Yes.

Can you briefly tell us? Because I want everybody who's listening to kind of, I know nobody can figure out their type just on a podcast, but just give us like a little ditty about each one. So people can kind of try to find themselves. Yes, so remember I said that the NEA grandma is about motivations and so those motivations are made up of your biggest fears and your biggest desires. So each type has a fear that they relate to or a few fears that they relate to and then you know what they really want in life. So the anyogram one is called the reformer. Their biggest fear is being seen as a bad person or not doing things the right way. Fear is being seen as a bad person or not doing things the right way with their biggest desire then to be seen as unwanted, unappreciated, really just like not needed. Anyogram of threes are the

achiever. So their biggest fear is typically failure. So they fear failure the most, but they also fear being seen as incompetent or incapable of doing something. With their biggest desire being they want to be successful, they want to be respected, they want to be seen as being able to get the job done. Four's are the individualists. Their biggest desire is to create significance. They want to create meaning. They want to be different or set apart in some way. But their biggest fear is that they are defective or like something's wrong with them. So they want to be different, but they don't want to be defective. Moving right along, number five. Yes. The five is the investigator. Their biggest fear is not being knowledgeable or being seen as ignorant.

And then their biggest desire is to really just know all the things, gain all the research and to be seen as competent and knowledgeable. Sixes are the loyalist. Their biggest fear is typically fear itself. So they have a really strong relationship with fear. But they also fear being without support, security or guidance, with then their biggest desire to have that support guidance and security from the people around them, their environment, their relationships, things like that. Sevens, they're the enthusiast. They're the most extroverted on the Enneagram.

Their biggest desire is to have fun, right? But they also are seeking contentment. So they do all of the things because they're looking for that contentment. And then their biggest fear, they do fear missing out. So they do have that phomo, but they really fear being trapped in emotional pain or negativity. So then they don't want to have the hard discussions. And they'll turn on to the positive side of things to avoid those negative things. The eight is the challenger and so their biggest fear is being seen as weak,

powerless or controlled in some way with their biggest desire to protect themselves and other people. And then, Nines, the peacemaker, their biggest fears conflict. So they hate all conflict, they avoid all conflict with their biggest desire being to maintain a peaceful environment. Awesome. What I love about this whole

Enneagram is that it isn't like a box. Like here's your nine boxes and you're in it. What I love about it is that it has, and it's not static. Here's what you are and always what you're gonna be. It just answers that question, at least speaking for myself, that I always have, which is like, why do I always do what I do?

Why am I always like this? It kind of shows you your passion and your virtue, right? You can look at it and see who you are based on your kind of fixed patterns of what you do over and over again. But it also understanding it shows you what your real gifts are, because all nine of these have beautiful,

beautiful gifts in them that if you're able to see your pattern and kind of have compassion for yourself to understand, oh, that's why I always do that. And look at your partner, look at your friends and say, oh, that's why you always do that because it's coming from this motivation that is ultimately about fulfilling who you are. It's just, it's just not, it's not my gift. It's not what my purpose is. And so often we miss each other. It's a cool system to kind of have compassion for yourself and for everyone else. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, compassion builder. It allows us to get closer to each other in especially for those of us who are a little bit scared of too much vulnerability. It gives us a little bit of teeny bit of structure

that makes us feel a less alone and be more capable because it's information, information to be able to connect. I can speak for Glennon and I like this is totally Up our alley like we are totally in on this we're very excited, but it's also very Kind of confusing because for me I have like three that I scored pretty high on and that feels like well Which one is it could it be? Yeah the third the second the. So I saw your results, Abby, and you like you score high for seven, three and two, which are all part of what we call the optimist. Triad, sevens, threes and twos,

they all have very similar characteristics where they are optimists. They do tend to look on the bright side and have that energy and, and, you know, like to get things done, it is just about the motivation. So are you doing that to be seen as successful, to search for contentment? Yes. Or because you are wanting to be loved by other people. You know, so again, very similar characteristics. Nine stereotypically hate conflict the most, but that doesn't mean that other people love conflict.

Like I hate conflict. I'm sure you do. Abby, because you're in that section. But it just means that that's not your main motivation for doing something. So let's start with Abby. When you think about it that way. Yeah, let's start with Abby since we jumped in with Abby. So Abby took the test.

I know you're not supposed to take a test, but we did some tests. Okay, we did some tests because we were preparing. I always tell people you can find out a lot of information, but like all of you saw you scored find out a lot of information, but like all of you saw you scored high for a lot of different types. And so what you can do then is kind of just do the research. And we are a society that loves people to tell us who we are and not have to figure it out on our own. But that's the true and only way to really figure out your type is to sit with those main

desires and those main fears and look inward and see what sits with you. Yes. So I want to tell you one thing that I've said. That's the part that I have always been missing in my life. I'm like, the test is telling me something and great, I believe it. And then that's it. I've been doing anyogram tests without the research for 20 years. Oh, really? Yes, I've been doing it since college.

Can you tell Ashton why you kept getting three? And this is the first time you've ever really gotten your real number, please share with Ashton. Yes, so interestingly enough, I've always seen myself as a three, as like the the achiever, the performer, and now I've been I'm seeing myself more as a complete seven as the enthusiast. And I think the big reason is because I was taking the tests with who I wanted to be, more than who I have been throughout the whole of my life. And I, of course, we have traits in all parts of, and all of these enneagrams, all the types. But as an athlete, I had to,

it was like literally mind over matter. So I had to see myself as this achiever because I wanted to be one of the best in the world. And I wanted to be a part of a team that was winning championships. And part of the best in the world. And I wanted to be a part of a team that was winning championships. And part of the whole shabang there is like, you gotta sometimes fake it until you make it. You gotta believe it.

Before it's actually even true, you have to like believe it into existence. And so the irony is now, in five, six years out, this is the first time I've taken the test since retiring. Without cheating. Without, she would look at questions and say, what would a three say here? I've taken the test since retiring. Without cheating. Without cheating, she would look at questions and say, what would a three say here?

Would an achiever, how would they answer this question? And then that's how she would answer it. And I understand that because I really didn't wanna be a four, okay? Because fours I feel like are whiny and annoying. So I answered the question as if I were the leader, as if I were fierce and as if I were in I think an eight. So Abby has been getting threes and I've been getting eights all the time because we know how to beat an

anyogram test. Yeah, we're smart. Okay. So in preparation for this podcast is the first time we've ever been honest. Sister, tell us about your experience with the any of this time around. I'm a three. Like I just, everything I read, I'm like, God, damn, like it's just, it just is, and I, and then I read about some of the other ones that I get like so jealous because it really is like a way that you are. Like it's undeniable that that is who I am. And, but it does give you compassion for yourself because I see like that is the way I view the world. And how? Like, so what's a three? Achievement, opportunity to improve everything can be improved.

You see anything that is good and you think, how could that have been better? You just want to achieve the highest level and that comes from love. When I am integrated, when I am at my healthiest, all of my work is sacred work. Threes are very much related to working, and output, and achievement, and success. So all of my work can be sacred work, and it's all really a gift of love. So there can become an effortlessness in threes because you can, all of your work when it's flowing from your love

feels natural and right to you. But when I'm disintegrated, when I'm in stress, all of my love is flowing from the work. So in health, I'm, I love and this work flows from my love and then in stress it's I work and my worthiness flows from my work. So you feel only worthy based on your work. Right. Work gives you your worthiness. Right. And any kind of achievement, any kind of success, any kind of from, um,

stuff in my home stuff and my family stuff, outward things, you know, with degrees and straight days and whatever it is. It's like that is my way of communicating my love. So, but it becomes a tricky place for threes because at least for me, I'm running around thinking I'm doing my life's purpose and I am loving my people to death and it looks like I'm going around just haranging them with constant critiques because I'm trying to make everything better. You're trying to optimize everything. Is that what it is? You're trying to like, but so you're

trying to improve your people. Is that what a three can look like in their in their homes? Ashton, do you see that? Is it like the achiever is trying to change things so much that it makes people feel like they're loving them to death. There's always a goal, right? There's always a goal. Everything has a goal. There's always a goal and there's always like efficiency. I'm going to do this the best way that I can

and I'm going to expect that other people are also going to do that. And then if they don't, right, like that's where the knowledge of this comes into play because there are a lot of people who don't think that way or who aren't as hard working, maybe as threes or aren't as goal results focused as three are and people then don't understand how they couldn't be that way. It can be tough relationship. Because it feels like love, right? Yeah. It looks like. So for three, it looks like if I do this, then people will love and respect me for doing this. And then if I don't have a job to do,

or if I don't have a mile long to do list, then I must not be loved by people. Hmm. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it.

That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread.

And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy, a new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. your podcasts. I'm not going to be a very good speaker. I'm not going to be a

good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a

good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker.

I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going to be a good speaker. I'm not going in a different way, which is just maybe just being or enjoying or relaxing, I experience that as a lack of care. If you cared as much as I cared, you would be trying to get this for us the way I'm trying to get this for us.

Yes, that's right to see. Well, I should have this with you. Can you explain a little bit each of us has a tie. And when we are at our best and we're at our worst it kind of brings out different. Can you explain that the security points and and the stress points? Yeah, so each type has a different number that we go to when we're in stress and then a different number that we go to when we're in growth and really it looks like you go to the high number, the high side of your number in growth and like the, you know, not so great characteristics of the type when you're in stress. So what that looks like is, you know, for ones

when they're stressed, they will go to that low side of a four. And so that can look like internalizing your emotions, throwing themselves a pity party, like kind of like nobody understands me, nobody gets me. Do sister, where would she go in stress, where would she go in strength? Three is get so overwhelmed by all of the things that they need to do, that they just don't do any of them.

And that looks like going to the low side of a nine. So they have a difficult time getting started, almost become like paralyzed at an overwhelmed at all of the things, and become procrastinators, and just are going along to get along. Do you feel that, Sissy? I don't think I've ever seen sister not do things. I have felt myself emotionally do that. I'm still doing the things, but the kind of like excitement and drive that is normally inside me is dead. But I'm still doing all the things, but without the kind of joy where it's just, where it's

just like this grinding through it, but without the kind of usual, I am working towards a goal because that goal is so attractive and exciting and wonderful to have. It's more just like head down, just grinding. And so emotionally, I am there with the guy. Would you say like numbing out almost? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it makes sense. Would you say like numbing out almost? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. Okay, so where does she go then in strength? Yeah, so then Threes will take on the really positive characteristics of a six. And that will look like being very community and relationship oriented, focused on others'

success and like getting them to that place that they're wanting to go. It also looks like being extremely prepared and responsible and just really loyal to their people, their relationships, their environment, things like that. How does a three look in conflict in a relationship, like say in a partnership, a marriage relationship? What might a three bring to conflict that is helpful or hurtful?

And theoretically, what if that three had almost zero peacemaker in them, had almost zero nine in them, and say theoretically they were partnered with a solid nine. Okay, so theoretically asked in, like what would that look like? So, threes in general,

when any sort of emotional conflict occurs, they do numb out, like emotionally. But when it comes to wanting to deal with the conflict, they view it as a task, right? So they're very task oriented. So they want to check it off the list and move on. So they want to deal with it. I imagine if there's a nine that's in conflict who's actively not dealing with it, that that can cause some tension there because threes want it to be over. And yeah, no. I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just Yeah, so threes really struggle with saying no Because they want to prove that they can do all of the things So that is a huge piece for them also

really getting Strong on your identity who you are Apart from the work that you're doing Because so many threes again like we talked about their worth, their value into what they're doing. And oftentimes don't know, they aren't secure in that value aside from that. Oh, does that sound familiar, Sissy? Or no.

How do we love threes? How does the rest of the numbers love threes well? Because if I think for me, can feel when you're I would say partnered with I'm partnered with Sissy and all of life right so when you're partnered with a three and you are not a three you can kind of feel almost defensive like I'm not doing enough all the time if I'm not matching that level of intensity then I'm not being enough. And that can become defensiveness where you're trying to prove yourself to that person.

When all that person, what I think what I've learned with sister even before the enneagram is that she actually doesn't need for me to work as hard as she is or be as intense as she is to prove my love to her. She actually needs me just to tell her how valuable she is or be as intense as she is to prove my love to her. She actually needs me just to tell her how valuable she is. That's literally what I was about to say. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So they need that. They need that constant reassurance that they're valuable without doing the things, but they also want to be celebrated for the things that they're doing. So they really do appreciate validation.

They love to be celebrated. They love to be told that they're doing a good job, like all of those things. But what's interesting is that you had said that you feel like you're not enough, but she also feels like she's not enough. And so I think just sitting in that similarity that you feel like you're not enough for different reasons.

And just remembering that as you approach a three, remembering that they do tie that value into what they're doing and just reassuring that you do love and care about them and that you don't care at all what they get done on their to-do list today. You just care about them. Sister, I care about you so much and I think you're doing a great job. I love you. We have a question from a three and I just would love Ashen for you to field this one for us. Hi, this is Dawn. I'm just going through a time in my life in a path. I've never walked before. I can really relate to sister and all of

the energy and passion that she puts into her work and job in the corporate type of sense. And I've been that person. I'm at type 3, an eagram. I'm an achiever and a performer and I got a lot out of work, all of my life. And now I am completely burnt out. I gave everything to work. And I've just reached the tipping point where I've needed to take time off work and I'm on leave. And it's scary for me because when I have the performer tight side of me, I feel like I'm letting other people down and when you have burnouts and other complicating factors, how do you tell yourself that you're worth the time off and that you're more than

your job when giving a sense of purpose and giving back to your community and performing is also a big part of you. So I'm just really struggling with that. I'm struggling with which part of it is my true identity and that's who I am. And which part of it is something that needs to heal. I would love your points of view. And thank you. to remember that that achieving side does not always connect to a job, right? That there are a lot of different ways in life that we want to achieve things. I have people who are stay-at-home moms who are like, I can't possibly be a three because I don't have a corporate job. I think it's important to remember that those stereotypes exist, but that doesn't

necessarily mean anything. And so for Dawn, I just want you to really just focus in on who you are and what you want in this next chapter of life, because your worth and your value is not tied to the job that you're taking leave from. And your mind and body and spirit are so much more important than any job will ever be. And if you're experiencing burnout, I think it's important to really just sit with those feelings and see what it is. What's the root of that burnout? If it's that constant achieving, if it's the constant need to say yes to everything, then analyze those feelings, but I don't want you to get caught up in thinking that if I don't have this job, then I'm not worth anything or I can't achieve in other areas. So she can

just take her achieving self, it's like addiction, it's like we just switch addiction. Like can she just, can she just take her, can she be like, I'm gonna achieve the shit out of inner piece? Yes. I'm gonna achieve the shit out of like self love. I mean, that would be, that would be ideal. I actually scored pretty high in this. And I think about the reality of kind of identifying so deeply in a certain way. Because when I retired from playing soccer, like, that was my identity. And it's like a high achiever, it was important to me. And that identity was important to me. So like, transitioning is really hard. And nobody talks about those transitions in life, whether it's a self-improze transition or one that life kind of takes away from you. It really

is hard. I'm confused about achievers because if you know, really, like if your whole identity is wrapped up in achieving, which is a man-made concept, right? It's like achievement is a crime. It's like how does an achiever ever find peace? Is it, if we're trying to find worthiness in just existence? I guess is what I'm saying. Like the answer is just, I am worthy, just for existing. Can an achiever ever buy that? Or are they screwed forever?

It's part of the growth of A, understanding this, and that's why I love the NEA Gram is putting words to how people have been feeling of, am I able to actually just be, three's really struggle with just being, they have to constantly be doing. And so it's a practice. Really, a lot of us were in a society that's constantly on the go, striving for efficiency and making money.

And if society is telling us to be that way, and then we naturally feel us to be that way, and then we naturally feel inclined to be that way. We have two things going against us. I want to say one thing. I think one of the gifts of this enneagram is not to educate each person away from their purpose. Right. Because I could just as easily say to you, Glenin, there is no inherent realness or security in being different. That's right.

That is a silly goal. Abby, there is no inherent goodness or realness or purpose on this earth just in being different. That's right. That is a silly goal. Abby, there is no inherent goodness or realness or purpose on this earth, just in being content and feeling good. That's horseshit. You need to like reevaluate yourself. The same thing is true with me. I am a goal oriented person. I came on this earth that way. I'm going to go out that way. So trying to teach me to not be goal oriented is not the purpose of this. The purpose of this is for me to understand myself, to see my patterns and to see my gifts and to make sure that I can cannot be stuck in the constant cycle of fixated patterns, but I can move into my gift. And my gift is aligning the way I was made

with the life I want to have. That's right. That's right. And I think that that is really easy. Wow. It's really easy. I'm so sorry, I just tried to fix you. That's it.

No, because you're a four, because you don't believe. Because the way you see the world, like any gram above all to me is nine different ways of seeing, of being and of responding to what we see. So when you see me, when you see my goal oriented, you say, oh, that's so silly. Like she's striving so much. So it's almost like you could look at me before and be like, but what is the point of sitting

around trying to figure yourself out for your entire life? So you could be like our force totally screwed forever. This is a good segue. So Ashton, you said before you said one of the things that would be important for sister and I in our partnership is to understand that both of us come to the table both feeling like we're not enough. Just for if you say that's true of all of them. Like all of us feel like we're not enough or is it just mostly two's, three's and four's. Two's and four's feel like they're not enough. Okay. So why do I not feel like I'm not enough? Because you tend to gravitate

towards feeling like you're defective or like something's wrong with you. And so it's just a natural feeling of that you don't have enough to bring to others. Whereas sister's going to feel like she's not doing enough. I don't have enough to bring to others. That's so interesting. Okay, what is the core value of a four of my type? So the fours, they want to be seen, heard, understood. And that's because they often have that fear

of being defective. They also want to create significance. So they love deep conversations. They're very emotional. So this is a huge thing when people who resist that vulnerability, when they look at the fours, they're like, how could you even be that emotional? Right? Yes. Three's often feel like emotions mess with their ability to get things done. Like their distraction to the word.

They do. They do. Actually, yeah. Well, that's interesting because you would feel that way, right? You would feel like these feelings, like say we're on a meeting or whatever. And you would feel like the feelings

that I'm talking about in that moment are distraction from the work. I would feel like the feelings are the work. This is the whole point. If we don't work through this, we're not doing the work. So it's important to differentiate ourselves to feel like we are different or like, I really didn't wanna be a four.

I feel like fours are exhausting. I know she's so four. That's so four of me. Yeah, that's so four of me. So what, what does a four look like in a relationship? Like what, how do they show up in familial or relationship ways? Yeah, so they're going to be, like I said, the ones who have the most feelings like I said, the ones who have the most feelings, and they're going to encourage their people to also have those feelings, to be able to be vulnerable, and that, you know, change can come from experiencing these vulnerable moments with each other. So that's what it, it looked, it tends to look a lot like that in relationships. But also just wanting to be seen and heard by your partner and wanting to be understood and wanting to just sometimes sit in process. And we always say to people about fours, like if they're sad, just let them be sad. Yes, I said.

Stop trying to cheer them up. Like if they want to process those emotions, like let them do that. And the seven over here, the enthusiast is like, I'm just bright siding. I mean, that was actually one of the biggest difficulties in our early relationship is I was just like, Mr. Mrs. Brightside over here. And she's like, you don't have to do that.

You don't have to fix this. You don't have to make it right. You don't have to make it even better. Well, because there's an element of sevens that can feel like spiritual bypassing. I know that's what you think, but I genuinely believe that it is okay. How was that possible to call that? I know that that's what you think, but I genuinely believe that it is okay. How was that possible?

I know that that's what you think, but that's just the way that I feel and see it. Because your core desire is to be contented. And so you have to, you're looking, you're seeing what you're looking for. We're all seeing what we're looking for. So, ashton, a seven, like Abby, if her core need is to be content, she is going to be looking for all data that confirms that and disregarding all data that suggests she should not feel contented. Right. So, if Glenin is, you know, feeling feelings in the moment and is wanting to process being sad.

You know, Abby's going to look at that as, Glennan's not content. What I would do is actively do whatever I can to be content and try to fix the situation. That's right. And Glennan's thinking, what I want more than anything is to be known and understood. And for me to be known and understood, I need to stay here for a little longer, explain it to death. Luckily for sevens, this is a process by which you can learn to just listen. Is there a better gift for a four than a seven? It's like, you know, just to see enthusiasm and celebration. Let's play that voicemail from the seven

because I think it was about relationships. I really liked it. Hi, Glennan, my name is Ali. I just want to tell, no, if y'all have ever explored the idiogram, me and my wife, I'm a seven, which is the enthusiast, and she is a six, which is the loyalist, which sounds like it would be a really good combination, but it sounds very, very hard

the way we argue and what we communicate is extremely different and it's taken us a while to kind of navigate through that. So I was wondering if you knew what each of your any of your members were. It's just super, super fun and interesting to know how each other communicate. So talk to us about relationships, Ashton. Talk to us about how knowing our numbers, this, she's a seven and a six, like a loyalist and an enthusiast. How does knowing the numbers of each other and ourselves help us in our conflicts and

our relationships? This is the bread and butter of the Anya Graham, knowing that you can allow that person to really be who they need you to be in that moment. So for a seven and a six, sixes are stereotypically the ones who have a lot of worry and doubt and fears. Remember, they're strongly connected to fear. And then if you have a seven who is like, let's look on the bright side, it's not actually going to happen. The six can

tend to feel like their fears are invalidated because the seven is saying, you know, well, and really believing with their whole being that things will always turn out okay. And sixes feel like they need to prepare for all of the scenarios just in case. But understanding that about each other can help you adjust some of those behaviors that might feel invalidating. You know your relationships. It makes me think, okay, the relationship between the three of us. So we're all in this podcast. Say the three of us are at a table, we've had a conflict and we're not, we're miscommunicating or whatever. I'm thinking about sister when you and I sometimes like are in a conflict. And I like ask so many questions.

I'm imagining this thing that happens where I'm like doing this thing that I feel like is helpful, but I can see on your face, it's like not helpful, but I don't understand why. And I'm wondering right now if it's because I am coming to the conflict with the goal of we are all going to leave this understanding, the shit out of each other. And so in order to do this, I need to ask you 49,000 questions. Which makes her feel completely questioned. Do you understand why I'm talking about? Like I can see her face like, like she's like getting defensive or something.

Who do you think you are? Ask, like I'm done all of this work. But I know these answers she's saying. So the reason I'm doing it that way is because I'm coming to the table thinking the goal here is that we all leave here completely understanding each other. So if she comes to the table in the middle of a conflict, what she really needs is, Sissy, is it for me to, what is the hazard? What is your motivation when you come to the table? We can use the conflict that you had before, where sometimes I am, brings so much intensity

to a situation or so many like, here's the 10 things and here's what we're going to do and then you feel like you have this kind of implicit defensiveness of, well, either she's suggesting I'm not doing enough or I need to validate how much I'm doing so that she knows that I'm not like letting her down when and then you're kind of pushing me away and telling me the reasons why all of this is unreasonable and I'm doing too much and it's too much when really what I want you to do is just receive my love in the form of all of these things that I have brought. Like I'm not asking you to bring me anything back, but me bringing that intensity to you has you feeling like you need to explain yourself from where you sit so that I know you. I know where you're coming from because I will believe sometimes leave those intense meetings and I'll turn to Abby and I'll say she seems really stressed. She seems so stressed.

And Abby will go, no. Well, and I think it's because threes are so focused in on the task and the job that needs to be done that to other people who don't function that way, that can look like stress because that would stress us out. I feel the energy of it. So like if sister comes with a bunch of things, I'm not thinking about the things. I'm looking at her thinking,

does she feel okay, does she feel? Does she feel, how does she feel? When she's talking, I'm seeing a flurry of things and I'm thinking, but does she look, how is she feeling? And then she's like, what the fuck does that matter? No, no, no, no, what happens is, you come in, and then you say to me, well, have you thought about giving this job to so-and-so,

have you thought about maybe we don't have to do it that way? Have you thought about, so you're trying to deal with taking care of me? And all I hear when you say those things to me is you're not doing a good enough job. That's right. Because you can't do the job. And you can't do the job. Because when you are trying to take things away from me that I'm doing or suggest alternatives,

the only thing that I hear is I am not achieving the way I need to be achieving or I wouldn't be getting this question. This is like real breakthrough folks. And I'm, and I'm thinking if I were saying all of those words and I had that piece of paper she has with that list, I would actually die. Yeah. Basically we're in triage and I have to save my sister's life right now. Yeah, because you're coming to it with each perspective of type. Yeah. And you're treating her how you want to be treated rather than seeing it from her type's perspective.

And it's like a relief too. It's like, oh, I don't have to do it. I don't have to fix it. If it comes back to every freaking thing. And right, Ashens, I don't have to fix anybody. Yeah. Yeah. You just have to understand where people are coming from. And this, Ash and my husband is a nine.

He's a peacemaker and that has been so interesting because it's like he is so deeply good. He has like all of this like peace and harmony about him and he's just like super emotionally stable and easy going, all of those gifts can become liabilities if we're not seeing them as their gifts. I can either see his easygoingness as this like stabilizing emotional force in our relationship and our family that keeps everything steady and peaceful, or I can find it to be this kind of complacency that if he were to be exhibiting his care

the way I exhibited it, he would be striving more. And I'm sure he doesn't see my striving as a gift because he probably is like, why can't she just be peaceful? Love me. Why can't she love me how I am? Right. Right. Well, that's part of the neagram is him understanding this side about you, just like I can hear you really deeply trying to understand that side about him. Here's the thing I think that people would be surprised in no way that sister has been preparing for this. Like she was, she was here to save her life. Like, like, like, and she is so, like, you've been texting us and all of these memes. And this is just like the achiever in

you. And I'm like, damn, that's so cool. That's wonderful to feel seen though. And as she's that, it's a relief. It's a bit of a relief because we can feel like our challenges are so personal, like they're all little neuroses when really, when you understand, begin to understand what you do, Ashton, it's like, you feel like you're part of like this tapestry and all of these things are being woven together. And that's what we've seen a lot is this,

like, I have relief almost, that other people think like I do or other people do things the way that I do. And I'm not actually crazy. Yes. And I do things because I'm made this way. Yes. Yes. That's it.

Can you talk a little bit about Nines, Ashton, because I think that there are so many Nines out there, and I think it's important to say that there's not one gift that is better and one that's more burdened or whatever. I mean, the sevens are the bus. Because those sevens have more fun. But every one of them has an equal depth of them. Like just because you seek to be contented, Abby, that's, that's like sevens bring fourth possibility because they see it, they bring forth good things in the world because they're able to see them, whereas other people cannot see them. So there isn't like a depth and a shallowness of any of these. But I know so many folks are nice. Can you just talk about them for a little bit? I feel like, nines are always the type that people want to be. I wish that I could just have no care in the world and just focus on my peaceful environment and just go through life that way.

They have their own struggles too. They avoid conflict more than any other type, and that's because it messes with their peace. Their biggest desire is to protect their peaceful environment, whether that be a physical way or emotionally. They want to protect their emotional piece as well. But oftentimes, this forces them to not voice their opinions, This forces them to not voice their opinions, not voice their thoughts, their wants, their needs because of that threat to their piece.

And so then they build up resentment, it can look like being passive aggressive because they're not vocalizing those things. Okay, if every any gram type, one of each shows up at a dinner table, a dinner party. They're all around one table. What does every type bring? Okay. I'm thinking the seven brings like music of the decorations.

The seven brings the decorations. I know what I, what the four brings because they bring the question card. The little question cards, of course, she literally does that. I do that everywhere. It brings the question card. I don't want to know what I, what the four brings because they bring the question card. The little question cards, of course, she literally does that. I do that everywhere. It brings the question card. I don't want to know what you think about the weather. Just please answer this question about your deepest fear and regret in life. My mom's best friend is a four.

And when I was a teenager, like they sat down and made the question jar. Yes. That we, every like boyfriend that we brought home had to go through the question jar. And I was like, this is so weird. Like, I can't believe that this is a thing. And then when I discovered that anyagram, it's a trend with force. They want to have the deep conversations.

That makes me feel so much better. We have, we do that at the dinner table with all the kids. They're our kids friends. I thought we are the coolest family because we sit down. We really talk. Amma says to me a couple of years ago, so and so is over. I say, okay, dinner's in 20 minutes, whatever Abby's cooking. She goes, I'm making these names up. She goes, Ashley wants to just eat upstairs in my room. Is that okay? And I was like, wait, why? Like, we're gonna have dinner. She goes, well, she just said to me, your family's intense, dude. I know so embarrassed and sad,

because I thought we were doing this great thing. If you've ever heard your little intense, dude, you might be a four, right? Okay, so the four brings the cards. What does the one bring? The reformer, what does the one bring? The one that is going to bring, I'm just thinking? The one that you're going to bring. I'm just thinking about how like they're going to be punctual. Okay. First of all, okay. They're going to be

on time. They'll probably be hosting it with a very clean house. Okay. They're they're going to bring that like order and organization to it. Okay. Maybe some like tougherwares for the, for the organized, the leftovers. No, they've got name cards. Name cards. Okay, what about a two? What does the two bring to the party? The two could also be hosting, because they are typically,

the bring home food. They enjoy having people over and things like that. They're going to bring probably dessert. Okay. But they're also going to be the one that's helping, you know, clean up the dishes, the dishes put things away Making sure that everybody has had enough to eat. They're helping you today. Yes

They're gonna call everyone beforehand It's if anyone needs a ride and yeah, or do you need a babysitter? Because here's my list Okay, my issue when I arrive at places is I always like over bring the items because I don't want to run out. I don't want people to feel like they haven't had enough. Okay. So everybody wants to have a best friend who's a two. So what does the three bring? Yeah. So the three is stereotypically going to want to bring the best item, right? So they're going to

you know, homemade, homemade like the cookies or homemade the food. That's the best recipe, you know, one that has been tested and people have had before. Or they don't come because they are working or working in masking their need to avoid intimacy. Got it. Okay. Or they bring like some sort of

competition or game or something like that. Okay, cool. Okay, so then the force have their little cards that they're going to get to do everything. But conversations, they're going to bring the conversations. Okay, and then the fives, they're not going.

They're not going. They don't love social interactions. They'd love to stay at home. If they are coming, they're going to bring like the random facts. They're big on random facts. They are big on doing research, so things like that, but they might just be sitting at the table not talking. They're at home watching, reading.

And then what about sixes? What do they bring to the party? The sixes are going to also bring conversation, but they're going to bring like a recipe that has maybe been in the family for like 25, 30 years. Something that is familiar. Like they're big on familiar. They go to the same restaurants over and over again. Order the same thing. Things like that.

Comfort, like the security stability. Yeah. Okay, they have their security blanket. Okay. And then the seven brings the decorations. No fun. Myself. Yeah, the decorations, the music, like whatever that looks like.

Okay, awesome. And then the eights, what are they bringing? The eight is going to pretty much tell you how the party is going to go. And, you know, they're going to delegate where they need to. They're going to be throwing the party, but like not hosting the party. Trying to control it without doing the work of hosting it. Okay. Okay. And they also know how it could have been better. Yes. Every minute how each thing could be better. How it's something. Okay.

And then what do our minds bring? They're also about comfort. So they're going to bring whatever feels comfortable to them. They're going to bring a host, a host or host a gift. You know, they're going to make sure that other people feel comfortable and things like that. And are they going to be the one that reminds us of dinner that we don't talk about politics or religion or money? They just keep it. feel comfortable and things like that. And are they gonna be the one that reminds us a dinner that we don't talk about politics

or religion or money, they just keep it? I don't even think they'll remind you because of the threat that might be brought up. Oh, they're just holding their breath at the time. I think they'll just like hold their breath and hope it doesn't happen. And if it does, just like retreats. Okay, go ahead.

They go pee then, that's when they go pee or something. Yeah, okay. Well, this sounds like a super fun dinner party. Um, Ash and this has been so wonderful. Thank you so much. I think that the work you're doing is so freaking cool and important because what could be more important than knowing each other better so that we can love each other the way that we were meant and treat each other the way other people need to be treated not

the way we want to be treated. I have been reading these complicated books and trying to figure this shit out for years, for decades. And I finally got my hands on your book. And I just like, thank you for making it simple. It's literally called the NEagram Made Simple. And I just wanted to say that you making this and putting it in more simple terms for me has reinvigorated me to want to do the research, not just the tests. Thank you, Aston. We adore you.

Thank you. For our next great thing, just check out Aston. Check out the Enneagram. See if it helps you understand yourself and other people better. When life gets hard this week, don't you forget all you various numbers. We can do hard things. See you soon. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts,

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