We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Esther Perel: Love in War

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

In this deeply intimate collaboration with beloved therapist Esther Perel, she dives deep in a couples therapy session with a Ukrainian couple torn apart by the war. The wife is compelled to leave the country for the sake of her youngest son; the husband and older son are compelled to stay in the warzone for the sake of their country. Miraculously, even amid unthinkable loss – and maybe especially amid unthinkable loss – love and connection are unrelenting. Love does impossible things. (Ukrainian and English language transcripts available at http://wecandohardthingspodcast.com) To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello Pod Squad and welcome to a very special episode of We Can Do Hard Things. The conversation that follows is deeply intimate, brutal and absolutely beautiful. It's a couple's therapy session led by the remarkable Asterra Parrell, a friend of the podcast who has been in beloved therapists for more than 30 years. If you haven't already, please go back and listen to We Can Do Hard Things episodes 42 and 43 with Esther. In this hour, Esther dives deep with the Ukrainian couple, torn apart by the tears of war. The wife is compelled to leave the country for the sake of her youngest son, and the husband is compelled to stay in the war zone for the sake of their country.

This conversation, Love and War, shows us that under every atrocity we can see on the news, there is an incomprehensible invisible loss. And miraculously, even amid the unthinkable loss, and maybe especially a mid-unthinkable loss, love and connection are unrelenting. Love and life are forged in the rubble. Refugees make music, couples dance from afar, brothers plan life after war. Please listen to this conversation and find solace in the truth that love does impossible things. If in honor of this courageous couple,

in honor of love, you wish to extend your support to the people of Ukraine, you can give toward together-rising continuing urgent response for these families at TogetherRising.org slash Ukraine. Since Putin's attacks began, together rising has invested 2,593,046 dollars and 12 cents in 14 boots on the ground partner organizations. We've supported emergency evacuation of families of more than 1500 children from Ukrainian orphanages and BIPOC students who were being denied passage across the Polish border. We funded 322 pallets of life saving medical aid to hospitals,

trauma-informed mental health care, direct cash assistance to individuals, and critical wraparound support for queer Ukrainian refugees. Coats, blankets, hot meals, shelter, and resettlement services. We will continue to support these families, and we invite you to join us. Every penny we receive at TogetherRising.org slash Ukraine will go out the door in love, support, and solidarity with these families. Thank you to Esther for trusting our community, and thank you to you, the Pod Squad, for honoring and standing with this brave family as they do impossible things.

None of the voices in this episode are ongoing clients of Esther Perrals. Each episode is an edited version of a one-time three-hour counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. When we tell the stories of war, we often leave out what happens to couples, to their dynamics, to their intimate life.

In this session, I wanted to look at what happens to love in war. Our lifestyle has changed so drastically. He is going through air alerts five times per day. He has to go to bunker to save himself and our son. It was really hard to separate our family. He is in Ukraine with their 18-year-old son, waiting to be drafted or more accurately, dreading to be drafted, and she in Western Europe has a refugee with their 16-year-old son.

We have everyday meetings online, one day with children, one day just one-on-one. The first conversation was really tough because when I asked how are you and he said, I don't even know. I'm afraid to ask myself this question because there is so much pain there that I don't even want to look there. My father, officer, and he, like, discipline, he said every time to me, you need to be strong. You need to be just defending your family and your feelings, no matter your action matter. And it's why I tried to be, you know, just kept an America

for my life. They're trying to talk about their existential stress, but they're also trying to find a way to maintain their connection, which used to be such a powerful cohesive force for both of them. They were a very intimate couple, a very romantic romantic couple, very sensual couple. During 22 years of our marriage, we would have like weekly dates with each other. We were really close. To me, this man is one and only and we are one, like flesh. When we start our relationship, she for years said me no.

For me, it's like treasure, this beautiful woman. And a question we often have in acute stress is how much are we allowed to still want the little jewels of life and how much do we have to put all of that aside because of the great havoc? That internal tension exists also between the two of them and all of that is afraid at this moment. My man of my life is not besides me and I was feeling lonely and I need just to be left. I want to be left. I want to hear compliments.

I want to be the same woman for him. My first reaction was, what are you talking about? But compliment, we have war! I have a feeling that whatever you're going to say, you are not the only one, by far. You will be speaking for millions of people who are experiencing what it means to live separated by war. Separated with you, in Ukraine, with one son, and you in Western Europe, with the other son. and you in Western Europe with the other sun. Just that image in front of me brings tears to my eyes.

Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you, sir. How many months have you been separated? For five months in the end of February, I left on the third day of war. It was difficult to say, it was difficult to leave. It was right like an open wound. But anyway, the decision should have been made

because there was no option, also thinking about our children, just because the older son could not leave the country, as well as Andrew could not leave the country, we had to make this decision. And I had a hope in my heart that, okay, a few weeks, a month, okay, maybe two months, we can handle it somehow. And the world will be over.

Now it's been five months, almost it is getting to the sixth month now. And I literally cannot imagine another month coming. It's just, yeah, like a deep wound and it's getting worse and deeper. One flesh that was divided into parts, a surgery is being made and no one, it's not done with the surgery, just an open wound bleeding. I had this visceral strange thought, but you know, this kind of, when you have questions about life and death, and you suddenly wonder, for who is it more difficult for the one who leaves, or for the

one who stays? It's a ball. It's a fostering bargain, right? But what do you think is the specific pieces for the person, for the parent who stayed and the child who stayed and what do you think is unique to the experience, to the parent who lives? After the war started, I very hard to separate our family. But I know it's better for a longer and a line being the safe country.

And I know I have responsibility in my country. Every day you go to bed and think about, maybe in the next night, I will die, because you don't know what's going on this night, because every week we hear a special signal like when Russia rocket come to Ukrainian we have signal and we need to be in the safe place. And sometimes you can hear it.

These I try to be helpful for my elder son Mark, try to connect with him because I see here inside now, here not open, he's so focused in himself, not talk more, just say, okay, I'm okay, I'm okay, but it hurt because I understand he has struggle inside. And you want to help him, but you don't know how you can help him. You just try to spend time with him and just do something, be good to dad and his kids.

For me, his kids, 18 years old, but his kids for me. He's kids 18 years old, but he is kids for me. It's so young to handle this situation Because sometimes I I can't handle this situation I know I'm chief my family and I need to be strong I Can't like okay guys sorry, I have problem and just, I need to be, I need to protect him, protect my wife, protect my youngest son and every evening we talk in the Skype and it's better time for me because it's little place of peace in our life. I mean I listen to him and I get the chills because it's so common to hear men or conversations about modern masculinity,

be about power and control and abuses of power. And what I'm hearing him talk is I have to be strong because that is how I protect my family. And he brings back a certain essential view of his role as a man, as he sees it, which is, I must choke my tears, I cannot be too weak, I cannot be soft, I cannot let myself feel fear, because I have to protect the others of the fear that they feel. I try to leave one day. It's for me as well. Yes, day by day.

Because you think about one day, you have schedule on this day, you know what you need to do. You do it and like the evening time you speak with your family, you see each other, you can have little fun at times, just share about what's going on this day, up in the home, just try to joke, try to support each other. And it's, yes, it's like we're together. Does your son know some of what you are experiencing? Because if you don't tell him anything, and he may not have the language like you do,

he may think that he's the only one, or he may think that he has to be okay, because you keep telling him, I'm okay. And so that becomes the code of the house. Everything's fine with you, so everything must be fine with him. But if you were able to say, maybe, you know, today was a very hard day, and whatever the reason, then he can say it was a hard day for me too.

Maybe some, maybe not big, my fears, I share about it, like something upset today, like, like big question about life, about death, about killing, about bombing, because I have fears. Of course. killing, about bombing because I have fears. I can die and I can join to military because I'm officer, a reserve officer in the Green Army. I can take, I could take invitation and go to war like my brothers. All your brothers? Yes, my, my own brothers was football coach for kids. He never was in military, but some days military department called to him and asked him come and say, you need You need your country, protect. And he said, yes, I'm ready. When he joined the military, his officer said, now it's your job.

We don't know when it's stopped. Only when war stops, you go back home. You know, in this field, about your life, about you can share about maybe your close friends, because I try to protect. I'm not Superman, I'm not like Captain America. I have got to have planned for my life and I just want to be right and do good decision when I need to do because I know my wife has another opinion about what I need to do when military department called me. Meaning? military department, Colton. I don't have just, meaning about joint or not

joint because I'm Christian. I should join if I'm called. I have no choice. In Ukraine, you can say no, but if you have, if you in charge, if you have your belief, mean you can take the gun, you can say, sorry, I can kill people, I can... You can be a conscientious objector. But not my specialized, like not like troops, like soldiers. I'm officer to protect sky like for missile. I need to strike missile. My specialized officer is in reserve. But if you can army call to me, I need to go to this department to

protect sky. Protect our sky, protect our city from Russian bombing. I think it's I think it's a good idea. And your wife says, she afraid she just tried to be, no, no, just save yourself, say you can't. I know it's hard. What do you think, really? I just think that everyone has his mission in life. And if you are talking about professional military, I understand that. That's your choice that you may,

when you're young, not really, but this is not a regular situation. That's a word. Surely to me, I understand that there are ways how to surf when you are in the army, how to help people, but to me, this man is one and only, and surely from my side as a woman, I want to respect his decisions and I'm trying to, even though I don't agree. What we had, conflict in 2014, the revolution in your train, and all the people went out to the streets to protest. It was in Kiev, in capital, and I did not want Andrew to go, he wanted to go to the capital to just show a peaceful protest that he does not agree with what government thinks.

But those were really terrifying times because many people were killed. So I did not want him to go. But he went. I had to find peace in our relationship where it's him as an individual and that's his own choice. When it's about your conscience, I want him to be in peace with himself, because he will be accountable to God in the end of his life and I don't want him to sell his conscience for my ideas, even though it's really difficult to me. Yeah. Well, we are trying to help everyone need to do what he believes. In his worldview, he sees her living with their youngest son as the right thing to do. He doesn't question it. Whereas she questions, even though she respects it, she also questions his decision to stay, his decision to serve, and his decision to put his conscience

before his love for her. That's how she frames it, but she understands the structure, but she also finds it's very challenging because she's afraid to lose it. Every day I ask God, what do you know, what you want? Open for me and I don't know, in every situation, I will find a good solution. If you make a decision, do you feel that it would be your decision or God's decision for you? I think every of us have maybe a destiny, maybe, and need to find what he'll leave in this planet, what he born. And if I leave, I need to do and find my decision. Now I work in a logistic company in our mission to deliver product to grocery store. We are working necessary for people because if people see is the product in the grocery store it's okay but if no product in

the grocery store it's like South Pantique and the people and I know now it's my place. I work in this company it's we do good job, it's very important for society. And I do what I can do. If another day someone called to me and said, this work for you, you need, I will pray, I will look in my heart, what I think. Where is the best place for me when I can be helpful for people? Because now, if you live in Ukraine, every people now try to find how we can help what we need to do to be closer, every people in Ukraine like one big family. This I can do is help people and you in the right place because you are here. You are like little hero, but I know people who are not Ukraine now. They hear too because he tried to save life, to try to support families.

He tried to protect children. They tried to protect children, as they tried to protect children. And it's very important too, because maybe we are distanced, but we are united, we just together, every mission, outside inside. I think, let me tell you what I heard and tell me if I heard it well. I am in the Ukraine, you say. Let me tell you what I heard and tell me if I heard it well. I am in the Ukraine, you say, and I'm in the front line, and I am here feeling the every day of what is going on,

and my mission is to do for the good of everybody. My purpose is to make sure that there is food in the supermarket so that people have some sense of normalcy and eating. And I bring my logistics skills to the store. And my sense of family is that I can get through the day if I feel like I've done something helpful for others and for my country. And when I look at my wife and the other people who are outside the country, sometimes it seems to me I'm adding this part that they may not understand as much that feeling of doing for everybody else because they also are doing for others,

but they're not seeing the effect every day of the war, the way that those of us who stayed behind are doing. So yes, they are helping us. They're sending money, they're taking care of the children, they're protecting the family that isn't home. But they are more into, I want you to take care of yourself, I want you to protect yourself, I want you to take care of yourself, I want you to protect yourself, I want, and you are saying, I can't protect myself if it doesn't protect the people around me.

And so the circumstances and the vantage point that each of you has, you being in the country and you being out of the country, is complementary and meets in this unity, but is also different. Because one of you is focusing on the comfort and the security and the safety and the other one is focusing on the duty and the collective and the conscience and defined security through that lens. Something like that? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

You've been listening a lot. I'm gonna invite you to say something. Yeah, we share a lot. We have everyday meetings online one day with children one day just one on one. Because at some points we realized that after having just everyday meetings just four of us, like a family, I realized that I have this big cap, I don't know, intimacy on emotional level that I need one and one talks more often. The first conversation was really tough because when I asked, like, so Andrew, how are you?

And he said, I don't even know because I'm afraid to ask myself this question because I'm afraid there is so much pain there that I don't even want to look there. there is so much pain there that I don't even want to look there. On the other hand, from what you have just shared, which is absolutely true, I was kind of feeling, you know, in France, somewhere looking at the couples, I was feeling lonely, I was feeling not loved, there is like my man of my life is not besides me. I don't hear anymore so many compliments that is my need in relationships. I don't hear this. I don't hear that. And I understand from my perspective.

So our needs were different. So when, and then we decided, no, we need to talk even more, because we had this habit in our family, like during 22 years of our marriage, we would have like weekly dates with each other. We were really close, but just because of the war and because our lifestyle has changed so drastically, we were kinda afraid to approach each other.

I was afraid to hurt him because I knew that he is going through air alerts five times per day. He has to go to bunker to save himself and in our son. And I need just to be left. I want to be left. I want to hear compliments. I want to be the same woman for him. My first reaction was what I was talking about, but compliment, we have war, we have difficult situation, I tried to do something helpful for my country, for my family, for compliment, but then I just think about it because I think she just go through difficult time now. She has needs. It's like, like Bible said, it's my part, it's my body, my wife. It's like, if my hand have painful, I want to protect, I want to just heal my hand.

It's if my wife need good words, like compliments, say, you are so beautiful today, I love you so much. And it's very important for her. Andrew, it's not just important for her. It's not just important for her. Because you too feel this. But if you allow yourself to connect with those feelings, it's even more scary. If you remember how much you love her and how much

you miss her and how much you would love to touch her and how much you would like her to hold you, you will connect with a different set of feelings. At this point, you respond from the heroic position of I'm fighting for my country and it's crucial. But there is also, I'm deeply connected to you and I don't want to lose you. And so, if you make it that she wants to be loved while you are expressing the love of the nation, you're missing the point for yourself,

not for her, for yourself. But your fear, if I know something Andrew, if I understood you well, is that if you allow yourself to connect with that part of you, it will increase the fears and it will make you less strong. Yes, it's like you just save yourself from pain. Just, and be like maybe... be focused in the real action because something... I can stop this situation. I can, like, make, say, my wife come to me and be with me because it's not safe.

And maybe I don't know. Say it in Ukrainian. Say to her. Andrew. Say it to her in Ukrainian. This is too deep to say it in English and she will translate for me. Я думаю, что я, наверное, внутри пытаюсь какими-то действиями или какими-то конкретными вещами закосить эту разлуку, эту боль. И, наверное, я просто не хочу об этом много думать, потому что... Потому что это я понимаю, что я ничего не молоделись.

Майбит Рассайплес. Майбит Рассайплеса, что эта бейна очень глубоко, And you said that this pain is so deep and so hurtful, painful, that he doesn't even want to give it a thought. And all he can do is just act and do something to not go to that place because the pain is just overwhelming. I'm going to let you respond to him. I feel like it's really difficult to to unblock this because at this time he's always vulnerable and he can easily cry but at this time it seems like he's frozen. There are some days when when Andrew can share a bit deeper. Yeah, he's always ready to hear my crying, my pain, because he's still the close, he is, he wasn't, he is the closest person to me in life.

I have many friends, that's fine, but it's different. But I sometimes feel I don't know how to approach what questions to ask because I am afraid that if I start unfolding this pain, then I will not know how to help him because he is far. I can't hug, embrace, you know, in the moment I'm mostly numb and can't handle things. Yeah. Numbness is not always that you can't handle things. Numbness is sometimes an adaptive response in the moment. Him saying to you, it's too painful if I allow myself to feel how much I miss you, that is not numbness, That's actually being in it. Even if he doesn't cry like you do,

do he did before. Why feel? Because I can't do anything about my feelings. I can't bring my wife back, but I can get food on the shelf in the supermarket. So logistics is doable. Love is painful. They both are in survival mode, they both are in to fight, flight and freeze.

And when she describes how she goes numb, of course the question is, is this numbness a problem or is this numbness in the moment actually adaptive? Because in hindsight, we often wonder why we reacted certain ways and we leave out the fact that in the moment those were adaptive responses. If I understood something where you are in France, there are other refugees that are couples, and there's a part of you, yeah, that's what you said, you know, yeah. Yeah, I see some couples who are together, Ukrainians. And you get jealous. Yeah, I'm jealous. I can't...

Yeah. I don't know, even... Why do they get to be together? Yeah. And then I try to find answers, mostly logical, because my heart does not want to accept this. And then you go to... Why is this country more important than me or us? Absolutely. And then you get into a triangle where it's you, him, and the country.

Absolutely. Yeah. Do you talk to him about the jealousy? I did not probably call it jealousy, but I talked to him. Sometimes when I heard some men saying, but I'm here to protect my family, that's why I left. And I feel that doesn't hate protect our family. I mean, I don't believe he does not.

So, but yeah, you were absolutely right from what you were saying, that those are heavy feelings. I sure just know that there is no easy way out. I mean, I respect his decision. I mean, men cannot legally leave the country. So, only if you have three children, you can't leave the country. So I said about my wife, if you come to Ukraine one day, and after nine months, you will pregnant. It's just two babies.

Yes. I have a chance, legal, live country. Come to Ukraine, spend the weekend with me. Let's make love, get pregnant and get out. Feels like a plot. My dream was to boys to girls. Yes, we have to boys. We need to to girls.

When you say I respect his decision, do you think he feels that? Does he feel that I respect? How deep, is there your questions? Your questions. It's like, whoa. question. It's like, whoa. I can't even be more honest with you. Please. I think you would like to respect his decision, but I'm not sure you really do, because there's a part of you that thinks differently, and these are not questions that can so nicely be aligned.

You have had your disagreements, I'm sure, in the history of your marriage, but these are deep existential, religious convictions that take you in different directions. And so you would like to say, he needs to be able to be at peace with his conscience. He needs to be able to be between him and God, and at the end of his life know that he did, you know, you have the right words, you think well, but I'm not sure that your feelings are aligned with your thoughts. It doesn't come true. Not really.

You agree? I do. I agree and when you ask this question, the first thought that came to my mind, I'm not sure. I want to align my feelings to this respectful attitude, but sometimes it does not happen this way.

It for me is like two ways, one way I need to be with my family and another way I need to help my country. And it's like how I can connect this good, both goal in my life and only to be honest with myself and hear my heart. But every time when we have this situation it's not easy for us to find peace and find because we have different opinions. But if I may, I think it's not just that you have different opinions from each other. So, you're in 2014, there's a revolution, you decide to go to the demonstrations, and there's a part of a Ljana that says, I wished that you didn't go and that you stood by us.

But at the same time, when I know what attracted her to you, your character, your strength, your integrity, your deep sense of commitment and devotion to the family and beyond. So I can only imagine, it's not just that she says, don't go, is that she is not just in a conflict with you. She's also having an internal conflict between the fear of losing you and the wish for you to stay and at the same time also the respect and the admiration for you that you go and that you do what you're doing. It's both ends, but that's inside of her.

Do you understand? Does it feel right, what I said? Eliana? To me, yes. I think that sometimes if you could speak from both places like that, he also would feel like you get him. And if you were able sometimes more to talk, even about the pain, about not being with her, she would feel less alone, that she's the only one who misses the compliments and

the sensuality and the connection, because you are busy with the country. There is a bridge and you're not walking across it enough. What do you say in Ukrainian? Do you understand me? Yes, I get a little bit. Yes, I get a little bit. Yes, I get a little bit. But I think for a lot, she lost her dad, her mom, and her brothers. Now, it's not not good condition like healthy and me maybe our

family for her is like all and she tried to save it it's why her her is painful. You are her family in every sense of the word. She no longer has her mother or her father, her brother is in ill-held and you are it. And the thought of you going to the army leaves her with the dreadful feeling that she could be all alone with the two boys. Yeah exactly, last year when my mom passed away, Yeah, exactly. Last year when my mom passed away, I felt so appruded in every sense of this word, because I lost parents who gave me life. And I remember when Andrew came back home and he hugged me and said,

Mom, it's not with us anymore because her neighbor called Andrew not me because she was afraid to call me. And I said, you are the only person in this world. anymore because her neighbor called Andrew not me because she was afraid to call me. And I said, you are the only person in this world. There is no more, no one who can be closer. And sure I'm super communicative girl, have lots of friends and stuff, but it's very different. The closest person is Andrew. Unlike maybe for Andrew is different because his parents are alive, his brother is okay.

I mean, he's okay. I mean, in Gryphelson, I have a drug addict brother and plus my children who are turning almost 17 and 19, kind of losing everything and feeling super lonely in the country where I am now. The Sandra stands that he is going through his struggle, I'm going through my struggle, we are trying to be there for each other for sure as much as we can. You're always clear that your place is with your younger son in Western Europe, or you think sometimes we could reunite, but we'd have to be in the village together.

This is the question I'm asking myself now these days. Can I handle another five months being in the situation like that? Maybe it's better to just go back home and die together and not struggle so painfully because it's huge. I can't bear it. And then all the traumatic experiences appear at the moment when I'm thinking of coming back home. Because I've had many panic attacks and lots of things that I was going through anxiety and depression and then I can't picture myself sitting in bunker.

I can't picture myself having severe anxiety while going to bed because it took me about five years to recover and I'm okay now, I mean, before the war, the year before the war, I felt like thanks to a lot of different things, breathing techniques and lots of stuff, I could bring myself back to a normal state where I can handle myself mentally. I'm okay. I'm just thinking now about coming, like for a date, for a week or two, just to see each other and see how it feels.

Do you work there? Do you have a life there or are you in temporary mode every day wandering? Maybe I'll go back tomorrow and so you never really settle because you keep thinking I'm going home soon. Yeah, thank you so much for asking this question, because this is the biggest challenge for me nowadays, because I see at this time, like five months since the war has started, I see many families or even individuals, they start to settle, they start to live a new life at the place where they are.

And I'm jealous, like you said, thanks for just giving it a name. I'm jealous because I can't see myself settling somewhere without Andrew. Because to me being a creative one, I am a creator. I create big projects, I love vision. And I can't give myself a permission to have this vision because once I have it, I need to start creating something by myself, but I cannot picture myself settling somewhere.

So it was a temporary place for me to just wait when the sander storm and the rain will is over, but the rain is over. But the rain is not over, it's a pouring rain. And I'm there standing in the middle of this pouring rain, thinking where I can go now. If I go back to Ukraine, I can't work. I can do my business there now because it's just closed, something that I do I can do now.

I know what I want to do, I clearly know what I want to do, I clearly know who I am and how to be self-realized, but I can't give myself permission to settle. And so now what I see, I see many families and individuals trying to start fun jobs, finding some ways of how they can, you they can give education to their children. Your son goes to school? My son goes to school here. He's okay. He's younger one.

He's much easier for him to adapt. So he's okay. He found his community, let's say he goes to school here. And he sees himself somehow staying here. So I kind of potentially can feel that I can settle somewhere, but I can't see myself settling without Andrew. It's so interesting. When this year started, I thought we need to have vacation whole family, this dream, this picture that we someday we be together

whole family. We will spend vacation. And because I don't know when it will. But I know it will. I know someday we will together and we will have a vacation. You will have a vacation. It's beautiful. And do you know in my kitchen? Yes, in our kitchen we have calendar, paper calendar, everyday new page, everyday new page. And this page is stopping February 23. It's last peaceful day. And I said, when my family will together in the kitchen, in our apartment, we change this day.

It's a beautiful picture to hold as hope, as hope. You know, that when we will meet again, we will travel again. And it gives you, I'm sure a lot of strength to wake up in the morning and to go to bed at night. Do you want her to come home or do you want her to stay? I don't know, it's a difficult question, because I know her feeling, I know her fears. But what's inside her is very important. I know for her being in Ukraine now it's big suffering. And maybe it's not good for her health.

I don't judge you and blame you. I want to just help you to find your decision. Because it's your decision and yes, inside I want to be she with me in Ukraine, but I know She feel not Safely in this, but we've we try to find good decision It may be pieces of a decision she may come home for a week or two and Hope that it gives her more clarity There is also a part of you, Eliana, that if you start something where you are, that doesn't mean that you never go back.

It just means that this takes much longer than you ever imagined, and you have no idea when the war will end. And in a way, you may be more helpful to the family by creating something where you are. And then you have a younger son who, if he stays another year, may decide that by then he's almost finished high school, that that's where he wants to stay. So the whole destiny of the family is no longer clear, the one, the way you thought it was going to be.

And that means being open to very different trajectories. Maybe one option is you do go home for a couple of weeks, and you may find clarity and you may not. And then the question will be, do I stay here or do I live? And then it will be my health versus my relationship. And all these impossible binaries, these are impossible binaries. You are a resourceful person that starts with visions. Usually you start with a big vision. Maybe this is an invitation to start with a smaller vision and a temporary

vision. A vision for the moment. Another vision for life. War makes everything become in the immediate. Because if he lives day by day, you're going to be living day by day too in some way. Your vision has to be a vision for the moment. I mean, I am not saying this because I have certainty and I know I'm trying to think out loud with you and See if there's a way to take you out of your victim's darkness Everybody else seems to know where they're going but me Everybody else has their partners, but me

Everybody, you know during that thing and you your day there, and that's separately from him. That's true. When you say, I'm that kind of person, and I start this way, and this is how I work, I would add, at the end of the sentence, in peaceful times. in peaceful times. But in war times, all your definitions of yourself, and all the ways that you have constructed the world and reality around you, changes. And in a way, it's about how you each help the other

in the world that the other is in. And then once a week, you have a date on a fantasy island or a fantasy place, where you do not touch any of these subjects, because they are so big and difficult and painful and they filled with uncertainty. Maybe you don't talk. Maybe you listen to music together, maybe you watch a movie, maybe you each dance in your own places. But with each other, crazy stuff that people do when they are in forced separation.

Do you like to dance? You both smile when I said that. Yes. So, we dance together actually. When I met Alona, I just saw like, she dance and she was beautiful dancing. I like dance, she like dance. Beautiful. So imagine.

We are crazy when dancing. So imagine you even, you know, you each make a playlist and you just put the music on and just dance for an hour instead of talking about this impossible, huge existential quandaries, just to give yourself hope and energy and poetry. It doesn't answer the big questions, but it keeps you connected at a different level that is also very important. Freedom comes through our imagination,

especially when you can't feel free in reality. Your mind and your body are the two, you know, means, vehicles through which you can stay connected with the world of possibility. In a reality in which it feels that every possibility could be life and death. You also need places for joy and for celebration and for connection in the midst of the tragedy. I sensed that there was a need for permission. It's the permission that allows us to stay connected, to hope, to joy, to celebration, because that's actually part of what allows us to face the war.

And at one moment, I thought, like, on what basis do I know anything about this? I'm not from there, I'm not living in a war, I never have. But my parents did. And my parents each spent about four to five years in concentration camps. And so did their entire group of friends

and community that I grew up in. So I spent many years asking people, how did you do it? How did you wake up in the morning? How did you maintain hope? What kept you going? Did you ever laugh? Did you ever have fun?

Those things that are irreverent that seem to be taboo to talk about when people are in the midst of suffering. And yet, it is humor and playfulness and curiosity and joy and all the strategies that intensify joy, from the sense of awe when you look at the sky to the gratitude for what you still have in front of you, to the people that you think about that you hope to be unite with, those are very precise strategies that are beyond mindfulness and beyond breathing. People have experienced existential stress forever and have developed long-standing practices and traditions

to counter that, music, prayer, singing, poetry, composing in the midst of all of that creation, creativity, art. All of those things are the hardware for facing hardships. A stair parallel is the author of Ma and Captivity and the State of Affairs, she's also the host of the podcasts where should we begin and how's work. Love and War with Esther Porell is produced by magnificent noise and partnership with the International Trauma Studies Program. This episode would not have been possible without the generous support of Elizabeth Fert Wengler and Johann Berg.

And a very special thanks to One You Crane. One You Crane is helping Ukrainian couples and families affected by war, by organizing community support groups. Learn more at OneYouCrain.com or to contribute to their initiative, you can donate through PayPal at DonateAtOneUCream.com.