We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Fix Your Most Important Relationships with the Enneagram: Suzanne Stabile

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

We all have that one relationship that needs fixing… Today, Suzanne Stabile is back to tell us how we can use the Enneagram to improve our relationships and love our people better.  She guides us through:  How to stop misjudging and misunderstanding people;  How to start respecting your own innate gifts;   How to get rid of codependency; and  How to get what you are missing – more thinking, feeling, or doing – in your life.  If you missed our first episode with Suzanne, check out Episode 226 Enneagram: Why You Are the Way You Are. About Suzanne: Suzanne Stabile is an internationally-recognized Enneagram teacher. She is the co-author of The Road Back to You, and the author of The Path Between Us and The Journey Toward Wholeness. With backgrounds in sociology and theology, Suzanne has served as a high school professor; the first women’s basketball coach at SMU after Title IX; and as the founding Director of Shared Housing, a social service agency in Dallas. Suzanne lives in Dallas with her husband Rev. Joseph Stabile. She is the mother of four children and grandmother of nine. TW: @SuzanneStabile IG: @suzannestabile To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we are picking up right where we left off with National Treasure, Suzanne Stabeel, an internationally recognized, enneagram teacher, co-author of the road back to you, and the author of the path between us and the journey toward wholeness. If you haven't listened to yesterday's episode yet, you're gonna wanna go back and start there. These two episodes are really going to help you

understand yourself and your people better. And figure out how to have more compassion for yourself and your people. So let's jump back in. As Suzanne helps me understand more about why I am the way that I am, attention for, I think that every single four on the planet is in the pod squad. So listen up. And then she's going to dive into five, six, and Abby seven.

And then we'll put the inneagram into practice to help improve our relationships. Here we go. I'm always trying to undue co-dependence because that tends to mess up my relationships. And somehow, and I don't know exactly how to explain it, the way that you're teaching the Enneagram, it takes away co-dependence because it's like, you're not being how you are because it's my fault or because I have to do something different.

It's not a reflection of me. It's like, it's like an undoing of codependence somehow. Absolutely. And you know, I'm a Christian and I love the church as long as my husband pastors in charge. And people are being loved well and not hurt. And in my context, I can't understand, Lenin, why I get first chair as a two. Two's have every necessary gift to be codependent. Yes. And four is our second chair.

So why do we have all the gifts for that if it's such a bad thing? People who have a gift of singing, that's not bad. Right? My codependent nature is my, it's a gift and I've got a big one. And it almost destroyed two of my four children. So that's not good. But you see, I am co-dependent in the world because I don't bring up thinking. And you're co-dependent because you don't bring up dealing. Doing and once we're balanced in those three codependency kind of falls away Can you give me an example of like if I'm feeling a certain way and then thinking about how I'm feeling what is doing?

You can't Manage Your feelings with thinking. Whoa. Ooh. You can only manage them with doing. And after you commit to doing, then you get to think about which of the possibilities of doing you should

follow through with that will respect your feelings and the feelings of other people. But if you don't do, then you don't stop long enough and you know what you do, what force do? Now, I'm over-personalizing. Here's what force do. Sorry Amanda, I over personalized with you too. It just felt to me like it was dead on. For a minute, it was like we were on a girls trip. You know what I'm saying? Like we were all just in someplace, somewhere chatting. So, for force, an average feeling is not all that great. If fours are happy, they want to be happy. And if they're sad, they want to be sadder. But this space of just another day, nothing much going on.

You know, just a kickback, laid back day, that without a little hunch of some feeling is just not quite it. I'm just crying again. Not quite it. Not quite it. Not quite it. This is perfect. That's what you can use, Abby, you can say,

I know this is not quite it for you, but I need this moment. Yeah. Wow. And so, so if you bring up doing, you don't need it to be everything. Right. So do you mean like do something, like go for a walk, make a phone call?

Yeah. Well, be careful about the phone call. Right. Because then you want to talk about what you're thinking about your feelings. Stop. Okay. All right. I gotcha.

Yeah. And let you're going to call somebody who's going to say, what are you going to do this afternoon? Yeah. And you better just watch the dishes. Okay. So is that like setting a boundary, like you could talk about something that was bothering you, feel the bothering, do it is like doing,

like act on that thing to make a thing or is it actual physicality? Okay, I got you. I got all of you. So I know that you have in your possession, the journey toward homes. Yes, we do. Yes.

It's gonna hand you spiritual practice. Yep. Right. For you to do that are designed to help you manage your dominant center. Okay. So that you have enough space to bring up your repressed center. I love that.

At the end of every chapter, there's things to do. And it's like a lit, it's so good. Very concrete and efficient of your... Thank you. It was edited a number of times by people who are more like you. Hahaha. Sending would have much more to choose from if I hadn't been edited.

And so, the beauty of you is that you're a four. And the problem is that you're a four. And so what we all have to do is wrap our arms around the totality of who we are and receive the three innate gifts that we were all given, thinking, feeling, and doing, and then use them intuitively each one for what it's for. Our youngest son is a four and when he stops doing, I know there's trouble. Yeah. And so what he's learning to do as his spiritual practice is rather than sharing with his husband, walking the dogs at the end of the day and in the morning, he does it.

Because that's doing and that gets him out of his feelings because there's nobody there to get him whipped up with. And when you feed your feelings, then you sink and feel and think and feel and think and feel, then it's not even the feeling you had in it. Exactly. I told my sister recently, I said, I'm trying to figure out what I actually think and not just what I could think Because I could think a lot of things right now. I have paragraphs in my head about what I could legitimately Make a case around

Yeah, but I don't think I even feel that Now you just need to walk the dog. Yeah Do y'all have dogs? Yeah, too dog. Yeah. Do you all have dogs? Yeah. Two. Two. You get on it. You need to fire the dog walker. And you need to walk the dog. She's called you right now. She saw through that whole walker dog thing. I'm as serious as I can be. Yeah. And if it's raining, you need to go do something else. And when you do that, when you, when you, when all of us, I have to do it, I have to think. Oh.

It's awful. I don't know, y'all, I have to feel and I have the shortest stick of all. That's pretty hard to see. If you're not used to feeling and that's not your comfort zone and you have to start feeling, that's a hard one.

I'd rather walk the dog than feel. Yeah. You'd much rather do. None of that. Okay, Abby can help you. She's going to have to feel too. A whole half a range of emotions that she doesn't like to feel at all. Here we go. Five's.

Five's are thinkers who have feelings about what they think. The orientation of time is the past. My guess is if we went to the place in Washington where they have all the patents invented things, I would guess that fives invented things, I would guess that fives would be at least 75%. Wow. Wow. Fives appear to be introverts even when they're extroverts. I don't know if I said that eights have the most energy of all the numbers. Nines have the least energy of all the numbers because they're trying to have no conflict.

So they're they're boundaries internally and externally. Keeping out anything that's going to steal their peace, keeping in anything that's going to disturb the peace. But fives have a measured amount of energy. And I hope everybody who hears this, who knows a five, will never, ever forget this piece of what I'm about to say. Fives wake up every morning with the same amount of energy. And they can't do anything to add to it. That's what they get.

And they can't save up extra from today for tomorrow. So they do all of life with this amount of energy every day. Every phone call, every handshake, every encounter with a human being, every problem, everything that has to be solved, everything that requires energy takes it and takes it and takes it. And they live their lives trying to get home before the energy is gone because it's excruciating vulnerability if they don't make it. And so we say about fives, they're very withdrawn, they're very guarded. I don't know what they think, they don't say.

I don't know what they feel, who knows. And they are doing their best to show up for all the things and intuitively and intentionally measuring their energy as they go through the day. Their observers who need to learn to participate and they observe life, they say they do rather than participate. And their work is, they're doing repressed. So they think and feel about what they think and feel about that and that goes on. And doing for them, the reality for them is they plan to do things. And they count that as doing. My best friend since I was 18 is a five on the anygram and she moved and her back yard she didn't like she likes to work

outside so she had everything pulled up and then she started going to workshops to decide what to plan and reading books to decide what to plant and Considering if she was gonna have a deck and looking at decks and decide what to plant and Two years later everything had grown back up and nothing was done because she was planning And if you said to her house the backyard coming she'd say great It's so good So great. It's so good. So, uh, fives have to do. And what fives really want? Well, they need to perceive things. And to perceive means to fully understand. And so they are thinking and observing and trying to fully understand what's happening.

And they struggle to get out of whatever pattern they have set for themselves. I wanted to coach basketball so bad, and when I was a sophomore at SMU, I had a chance to keep playing for SMU basketball and start a basketball program at a Catholic high school here in Dallas, and it happened to be where my friend Carolyn was already coaching and teaching. And I coached with her. I had the cheerleader. She had the drill team. I'd basketball and volleyball. She had track. And she just never really got whipped up about much of anything. And I thought, how do you behave that way? Well, because she has to keep her energy till she gets home. She got to measure everything, but I didn't know the any Grimm men. And so I don't like to be touched too much because it takes energy from them. And y'all, I know this is gonna come as a shock to you, but I'm a toucher. They walk in a room now.

I have a guy who's in my current cohort and he's a pastor. And he walks in the room and he hugs me really big when he first gets here for three days. He gives me this huge hug and then he looks at me and says, is that good for the weekend? Oh, he not hug me again. And he's trying so hard, right? That's his work, right? Right. That's his work. You see how simple it is? Yes, and he's trying to honor your number two, right?

Like, he's trying to honor you. Well, I can't get this out of the way so I can sit in the back. Right. And just taking information. Morgan hypernicles his five. Y'all know her work. We've just interviewed her.

Yes. Well, she's a five on the antagram and she was in my cohort and she and the other five sat at the back right on the room. Now remember, there's just 42 people here and they named it fifth avenue. And they all sat back there where nobody was going to touch them. They were boundaries and protected by each other and they could just think together. And at the end, they wrote me the most beautiful letters about all that they think about what they experience.

Oh, that's so beautiful. Isn't it beautiful? And you and I would hate it. Right. That's right. Fives are the only number that's capable of neutrality. Wow. Nine's see two sides to everything, but they have a preference.

Bives. Neutrality is their thing. Hmm. Hi, it's Elise Loonon, the New York Times bestselling author of Honor Best Behavior, and the host of the podcast Pulling the Thread. I'm pulling the thread, I'm joined in conversation by those who can help us bring meaning and understanding to a world that often feels chaotic and overwhelming. My hope is that these conversations spark moments of resonance and plant tiny seas of awareness so that we might all collectively learn and grow.

Listen and follow Pulling the Thread, an Odyssey podcast on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. One of the things that I think we should be mindful of is that should be mindful of is that it costs them more to show up for an intimate relationship than any other number. And I don't mean just marriage. I mean an intimate friendship. It takes everything they have to do that. And people who don't know that, and fives who don't know the any gram who don't know how to teach people how they see the world, it means that we are misjudging every number, correct? Like we're misjudging every number because we don't understand how they see.

Fives orientation to time is the past, which is a great place to be because it's all the touching and all the talking and all the stuff's already passed me. I don't have to do anything back there. Sixes, I believe there are more sixes than any other number. I believe there are more sixes than any other number.

And at this juncture, I really think that's a good thing. Because sixes are the number who are the most concerned about the common good. They're the people who are willing to do the stuff in the back room that nobody knows about. They are the fabric that hold together every organization that we belong to. You know, they do the name tags. They pack the giveaway bags. Different from other numbers though, there are two kinds of sixes. Bobick and counterphobic. All sixes are focused on authority, all of them. So they all know what authority wants. And phobic sixes adhere to that authority.

They think that's where safety is. So they would rather surrender than push. And they believe if you go by all the rules and do all the things, things are gonna work out really well. Counterphobic sixes don't trust authority. And so they watch authority figures to see to it that they're just and that they're good to everybody and that they're taking care of the people who aren't at the top. They do what they

say they're going to do. And if authority doesn't do that with counterphobic sixes, counterphobic sixes will just take you out. They're kind of like eights. They often misidentifies eight and are misidentified as eight. The difference is sixes have a lot of anxiety. And the passion that's associated with sixes in ancient anyogram wisdom, which I'd here to as closely and as much as I can, is fear. And to tweak fear just a little bit, it's actually anxiety, because sixes are worried about possible future events. They're great in an emergency. They can handle anything while it's happening. They're worried about the stuff that's down the road. And that is anxiety. Anxiety is being

concerned and worried about possible future events. And, you know, they don't need a lot of attention. They like to be counted on. Lots of them teach school. Lots of sixes have told me that they've taught second, third, and fourth grade. And I say, well, why did you change teaching teams? I know what the answer is, so it's not a fair question. But 80% say because they ask me to be the lead teacher and I just don't want to. I just want to teach kids. I don't want to do all that. Sixes are thinking dominant and thinking repressed.

Wow. Because they're a core number. Three, six, and nine are core number. Nine's are doing dominant and doing repressed. That means they walk into a room and knows what needs Wow. Because they're a core number. Three, six, and nine are core number. Nies are doing dominant and doing repressed. That means they walk into a room and knows what needs to be done. And they think somebody else should get to it. Yes. Three is walk into a room and read the feelings because they're feeling dominant. And then they set feelings aside because they're feeling repressed.

Wow. Six is our thinking dominant and thinking repressed. Oh. And so that means that they misuse the thinking center. And they use the thinking center to manage their fear and their anxiety by having a plan or possible future events. And they think, okay, if this happens, I'm gonna do this. And if this happens, we'll do this. If this happens, we'll do this. And then most of the things don't happen.

And they wasted all of that thinking on that. Sevens. Sevens. I think it's really hard to be a one. I think it's really hard to be a one. I think it's really hard to be a seven. I think it's really hard to be a four. We can do hard things, Sam. Yes, there you go. Is that where that came from?

No, life is hard. Oh, I know. We can do hard things. So most people kind of want to have the things that sevens have. They want to be able to lighten up the heavy stuff and walk into a room and kind of, you know, lift everybody up a little bit. They want to be easy, easy to be with. And they want to easy, easy to be with and they want to make everybody's life better using humor and logic. And it doesn't work. So I'm going to just address the logic because Joel is a seven two.

My guy here, you know, our son that works with us full time, or we work with him, or we all work together. I don't know how to say that. So everybody gets it that it takes all three of us. Yes. But he's a seven. And as his mom, I know, incidentally, what's hard about being a seven.

And I know that when he started his journey toward sobriety in all things, nobody wanted that. What happened to you? You're not fun in him. What's wrong? Are you depressed? What's wrong? Are you depressed? What's going on with you? Do we need to do something? And you know, Joel's answer is, I'm doing what you and dad taught me to do. I'm doing my work. Yes. Yes. It's harder for sevens to fall and get up without making falling a joke than anybody else on the planet. Yeah.

Wow. That feels right. And so since childhood, I'm going to say things Abby and you just stop me when they're not true. Okay. Since childhood, you have been able to reframe any negative into a positive. Yes. And you do it so quickly and so intuitively and so easily that it means it was possible for you to live for a long time

without grieving, without dealing with loss, and without embracing the other half of the emotional field, which I'm sure somebody refers to frequently as dark emotions. And you were able to reframe things and reframe this, reframe that, reframe this, reframe that, to make it all work and to keep moving and to keep being what everybody wanted you to be until you came up on the first thing that you couldn't reframe. And when that happens for sevens, all the dominos fall. And it's like you have to deal with everything that you didn't agree. And everything that you weren't able to be sad about. And everything that you've been carrying somewhere, but you don't know where. Seven's orientation to time is the future.

And I mean, it's detailed. Future plans have details. Mm-hmm, correct. Oh my gosh, the first weekend that Joel traveled with me when he started working with us, we drove back from Louisiana. It's like three and a half hour drive that I don't know, took 11 or something. He started by telling me that he was gonna get

a motorcycle someday, which I'm totally opposed to. And then he told me what his boots are gonna look like, what his pants are gonna look like, what a helmet's gonna be like. Like he has the whole thing planned out, and then we were finally in doubt. And I said over my dead body, will you get emotional? We've had this exact situation. Sure. Even down to the motorcycle.

Oh, oh, costume. Oh, got it. Yeah. And with you. So, yeah. So what I'm saying is, when you can reframe and real time anything that might make you come over here, when you don't practice a full range of emotions. Because of the way you're put together, it's not your fault. It's not like somebody said, hey, you need to be over here more. Nobody said that. In fact, everybody said, what's wrong with you to come back over here? he said, what's wrong with you? So come back over here. And so then when you can't reframe this, there's just trouble that you have no tools to mend. It's actually really interesting. Sometimes I'll instinctively go into the reframe and Glenn and she's such a a truth seeker that she'll say that doesn't sound right. That doesn't sound as true as it could be.

And it makes me like, like it had literally happened this morning and I'm like thinking about it. I'm like, yeah, that's right. It's me not wanting to experience the feeling that whatever the circumstance is forcing me to feel or I should be feeling you today need to order I should be feeling you today need to order Miriam Greenspan healing through the dark emotions and read every word and then read it again. Because when you can't make space for a full range of emotions, all these other things happen like addiction. That's why sevens struggle so much with potential addiction

because anything that happens that would be a warning signal you refrain. And anytime you try to go over here, people come get you and bring you back over here to where they want you to be. And they do it for all the right reasons, it's because they love you, care about it's all the right reasons. It's just inadequate. Because for a seven, like I've noticed, some of Abby's old people in her life have suggested that they're more concerned about her now

than they were when she's in active addiction. It's like people don't see past them, but she looked happy that, or like for sevens, if they start to deal with their harder side and they are actually experiencing all of it, and so sometimes they actually do seem sad, or they do seem angry,

or it's because they're healing, but people see, well, you used to be happy. Try it all the time. Mm-hmm. So all of us, you know, nobody's excited that I'm not volunteering to teach vacation by school. Right. Pastors wives do that. Right. It's like, I don't. I teach adults. I do my part for the world. But nobody wants me to quit being a helper. Yeah. Yeah.

Good old Suzanne, you know, she'll do it. The healthier I get, the less I do. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. In terms of like where I am dominant, obviously the feelings part is the thing that I need to work on. Can you orient me in terms of like what comes first? You're a thinker.

I thinker. Okay. So five, six, and seven are in the thinking tribe. Okay. And that means you, and sevens are in the thinking tribe. Okay. And that means you take in information with thinking. And then you do something about what you think. And then you think about what you've done. And then you do something literally about what you think, about what you've done.

And all of that keeps you from this range of feelings. So to be clear, so just to be very clear, you and Glenn and I are all equally messed up. And Amanda and Amanda looks good, but she's messed up. That's too shay. All right, so now let's think about that. You have a half range of feelings, Abby, and you have picked up for your whole life that that's where people want you to be, the people that you love,

and you're still getting that message. And that's a mess. You've got to get over here and be over here too. And Glynnin, you don't want happy to just be average happy. You want extra happy and you don't want sad to be average sad. You want extra sad. And Amanda, you want to know how everybody feels, but then you don't want to be bothered with it while you're getting your stuff done. Correct. And I want to make everybody want me by knowing what they feel and doing something about. Now the same, any grant that taught me that teaches me what to do about it. And what we have to do is not control, that's not the word.

We have to manage our dominant center. But in any grant work, you never push down anything, you bring up what will create balance. So you're going to manage it, but you're not going to try to push it down. And you're going to bring up your repressed center. And you're going to use that middle center to deal with your default emotion. The default emotion for two, three, and four is a shame. The default emotion for eight, nine's and 4's is shame. The default emotion for 8's, 9's and 1's is anger and the default emotion for 5, 6's and 7's is fear. And your support center that's in the middle, its purpose is to help you manage your default emotion.

So just under the surface all the time for us as two, three, and four is a shame. It's just waiting in the wings. Just waiting to get us. And for five, six, and seven spheres, just waiting in the wings. And for eight, nine, and one to tinker. Okay, can you Suzanne give us as a four, a seven, and a three?

What is a simple way we can love each other better? Or handle conflict? Okay. Let's start with love each other better, because conflict can be very loving, So I want to separate those. Okay. All right. Based on our conversation today, and my awareness of some of the stories that make up your lives.

This sounds so self-serving, I'm really struggling. But honestly, the best way you can love one another better is to agree that each of you is gonna go to the journey toward wholeness and pick out two things, just two, that you're going to work on and share it with the other two and say I'm asking you to hold my feet to the fire to see to it that I do these two. Okay. Now let me tell you what one of the two needs to be. Okay. A contemplative practice. I love that. A 20-minute sit every day. You might love it, but your two buddies here don't.

If you're not. So Abby, I want you to hear Joe's to be the love of my life. Teach, contemplative prayer. And we will send you a link for that when we finish today. Thank you. Because once he teaches it to you, you'll think, I kind of want to try that. And we will send prayer beads to all three of you. And the prayer beads will come with a prayer card

that is for the fruits of the spirit. So for all three of you, you need a distraction as you try to begin a sit. You can't go from the world to Nirvana. So you're going to pray the beads to get you there. Okay. And their fruits of the spirit and what you'll find out is that after you pray the beads for, I don't know, Joe created the beads by the way, he created the prayers, he created the beads. I found out that we were the only denomination, Protestants that didn't have prayer beads and I couldn't stand it. It's like, if some people don't have it and I don't have it, I'm okay.

But if everybody else has it, I don't, it. It's like, if some people don't have it, and I don't have it, I'm okay. But if everybody else has it, I don't, must be missing something. So he wrote the prayers and he designed the beat. And what you'll find is that after you pray him for a while, you're just a little more patient. You're just a little more patient. You're just a little more gentle. You're just a little bit kinder. Yeah. I never can't remember the last one, so I'm still struggling with that.

The last one is self-control. Bug. So you pray the beads, and you've learned what Joe has to teach you about doing a sit. And this rare body, everybody who's listening, this is what you do. And from the foundation of a contemplative practice, you begin to do other things. So as you look at the list so that you can do the work. Figure out the one that you most want to do. And then don't do that. Oh, that's good.

Okay. That's good. Because the one you most want to do is going to feed your dominant center. And that's not what we need. God, I love that it comes down to just like sit still and work on your own shit. But you know when you hear, except when you hear Joe teach contemplative practice, you're supposed to sit still and let go of your shit. Okay. Not work on it.

You're supposed to let it go. And honestly, I've been doing a 20-minute sit almost every day for, I don't know, 30 years. And when I don't do it, everybody knows it. Now, we can do hard things. Okay. I know that developing a contemplative practice is a really hard thing. I get that. I'm all in. It's really hard for me to.

Okay. Now, how you love one another better? You use anyogram language instead of personal language to work through difficulty. There's no way y'all can work together and live together and do all that and not have trouble. There's not a thing. That's not reality. So you whiteboard it for a while so that you are looking at it. And then you'll learn to do it without that and

you just say, all right the three wants this, the four wants this, the seven wants this, what is the thing that we should do? What encompasses what we need? Where is the path? And y'all you can say things using anyogram numbers that you cannot say using somebody's name. It's just too hurtful if you use names. Yeah, that makes such good sense. I love that. Oh my goodness. Wow. You are a gift.

You have been missing from my life for too long. You all have no idea what it's like to have me in your life and not wanting to go away. So, hunker down. I put my phone number in the chat. We need phone numbers. I have no idea what it's like to have me in your life and not wanting to go away. So, hunker down. I put my phone number in the chat. We need phone numbers and we need addresses so it can sing you the beat.

Okay, perfect. We will do it. She's in. This has been such a gift. I feel like I already know my sissy and my wife better and I'm gonna do your things. I'm gonna do your contemplative sit. I have actually read all of your books but I haven't finished the wholeness one. So I'm going to go back to that to finish it. And I hope you will come to our house when you're in California.

I'll let you know when we're coming. Okay. If you're serious, I'm serious. I'm serious. Okay. Well, I'm too. Joe will be with me and you know, then you'll just adore him. Okay. Well, everybody does. I would just say this though. I don't have a lot of space. with me and then you'll just adore him. Okay, well. Everybody does. I would just say this though, I don't have a lot of space for relationships so I don't invite them without commitment. And I just began allowing relationships into my life two years ago. And I know what you mean.

And I feel the same way. I'm not going to reframe this conversation. When you come, we can talk about happy things and sad things. As long as they're very happy and very sad. There you go. We love you, Suzanne. When we want to be in the middle of happy and sad, we'll send you to do something. Yes.

Talk to the dogs, lady. Five squires. Oh, y'all, I'm so thankful for this opportunity with you. And I so hope I gave you what you want. You're more than Jesus Louise, more than. And thank you for all that because what an offering, all of the thinking and feeling that that required of you, I kept thinking looking at you, how much you were offering.

And I'm grateful for all of it. Love it. Thank you for your work. Okay. Thank you for your way of being in the world. Thank you for your work. Thank you for your way of being in the world. Thank you for your courage. You know, I'm not sure people even know what that means anymore. What does courage mean to you? Telling the truth? Trusting my aging body to get me where I need to be and that I'll do okay.

Wearing those ugly black socks so my feet won't swell in an airplane. Courage. By Pod Squad, we'll see you guys next time. Thanks for coming. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you, because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us, because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap

the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Keynes 13 Studios.