We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - FUN: What the hell is it and why do we need it?

Episode Date: June 1, 2021

In this episode—in which Abby confronts my sister and me about our inability to have fun—discover: 1. The one “fun” post that caused more people to unfollow me on social media than any other. 2. Why girls may disassociate early from their ability to access fun. 3. Science’s insistence that when we’re gloomy, rest won’t fix us. We gotta play the blues away. 4. A playlist I created for YOU—if you, like me, need daily help awakening your dormant Fun Self:https://open.spotify.com/user/f50axmsbwkhwq81ttiwovo1yf?si=707cb22232aa4cdf To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at $12.99 per month. I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine. Hello everybody, thank you for coming back to We Can Do Hard Things.

I am really thrilled about this episode because it's about fun. Okay, so last night I sat down in preparation for this introduction here and I wrote on every single thing I know about fun. And in front of me, I now have a blank sheet of paper. I know nothing about fun. I am unfun and so for today's episode we have brought in our resident fun expert. She is my wife. Her name is Abby Wombach. She has found a way to make a living playing games. One in particular is called soccer. And so she is here today to talk to us all about fun

and challenge us to have some of it in our lives. Let's get started. All right, so this is already my favorite episode of We Can Do Hard Things because my two favorite people are here. Not just my one favorite sister, but my other favorite person who is my wife, Abby Wombok. Woohoo! Is joining us today. Hi, babe!

How are ya? Hi, love. How are you? Hi love how are you? Hi, I'm so good. It's good. I'm just really excited. You're here. And actually, I feel a little bit nervous right now, just like seeing you and hearing your voice right there. That's weird. Why? I don't know. I don't know. Okay. Anyway, you're so cute. Oh my gosh. Well, the people can't see the cuteness. I know, I feel sad for them. I'll describe her. She's just so, she's just got a sporty spice tank top on.

And she's got her little headphones on. And she's just a beautiful human being. So before we get into our record to show that I sister also look very cute today. You do, you do. You're wearing royal blue today, which is so strange because you and I always only ever wear black, so it feels very special today. Yeah, well, laundry.

Yeah, you did some laundry. Okay, so before we get into our heart race today. She just loves me more than you, babe. She loves me more than you. Well, that's a good transition into what we're about to talk about right now. Thank you for that segue, because before we get into our hard thing, I think we need to just talk to you about the relationship between the three of us, because I think it's unique, maybe. And so, how would you describe the little triangle that we have here, this relationship between

the three of us where all we do all day ever is just talk to each other? Okay, so here's the thing. When I stepped into your family and I do feel like it was a stepping into. The very first correspondence I had with sister was this, don't ever lie to Glenin. Now that taught me a lot about you, Glenin, also taught me a lot about sister because she, inadvertently I think, was telling me, don't lie to me, right? Because this family revolves around integrity. That's like the core value. But I don't think that I've met people who are more integrated with what's going on in

their insides and what goes on in their outsides. Now, I've also never met more hardworking people. In fact, it's one of our five fights that sometimes I like to lay down in the middle of the day and Glennon, that's not something that you understand. I also probably would think that Amanda doesn't understand this either. Amanda doesn't lay down.

She's like one of those people who just goes to sleep and hangs herself on the wall with computer attached to her face so she can go through some emails in the middle of the night. Right. Yes, but here's the thing. I'm fascinated by the two of you because first of all, I love you so much and I have never felt so trusted and taking care of in the same breath. It's like because you guys operate with this integrity, so intact, it is at the core of everything that we participate ourselves in, whether it's a card game,

although Glenn and you do cheat sometimes. I do cheat, I'm sorry. This is what it's to be over. I hate games of all kinds. I do cheat in hard times. I do. This is what it's to be over. I hate games of all kinds. I don't care about them. Tell, babe, tell sister what you told me on a walk yesterday about the one thing that you feel jealous about with sister because it was an interesting, yeah, it was a fascinating thing coming together.

The three of us, because when I married a man, it's not like it was a fascinating thing coming together the three of us because when I married a man It's not like it was a threat to our sisterhood. We were it was like so what but like when I brought another girl to us woman, we're gonna stop saying Sorry, sorry when I brought a woman to our sisterhood sister. It was like wait what like? Did you feel a woman to our sisterhood sister, it was like, wait, what? Like, did you feel any threat to our sisterhood when Abby arrived on the scene? Shockingly, I didn't. I really didn't. And I, understanding myself, I would think that I would have.

But I didn't. I feel like it very quickly became, and I think that's a testament to Abby, actually, completely, the way that she showed up in our world with this appreciation for what we had and wanting to be there for you and wanting to respect our relationship. And so that was completely her. But very quickly, very quickly we became one of those, you know, those examples in nature of the symbiosis, like the hippo and the oxpecker or like the shrimp and the boy with his, where it's like these odd pairings of species,

but they go through their whole lives together because like the shrimp can't see and the fish needs someone to build it a shelter. And then, and that's what they do. It's just like we're three totally different species, but each of us has something that the other two can offer. And now we're just like in the state of mutual reliance for life That's what are what are our gifts and challenges like if one of us is the shrimp like what we have talked about what if we have a

Home flipping show remember we talked about Yes, okay, here's the home flipping show Remember we talked about that, like, the key of us. Yes, okay, here's the home flipping show. The home flipping show is like, Abby's like, I will, we will source the like, the Gucci countertop from granite from Sardonia or something. She's such a, she's so fancy.

I would be like, I'ma get us some cabinets from Goodwill because we can really, we can repaint those in a jiffy. And Glendon will be like, I just need all of it to be outsourced and I need soft, just soft things. Yeah, and good energy. And good energy, the light needs to be.

I need to know that the neighbors are like really kind to their children. Yeah, it's about how it feels. Yeah, sister. Tell sister what you were jealous of. Well, I just have to give her credit for nailing that description of us. Three different species that when you combine this all together, it's like make, we make the perfect pairs or triple. I don't know what to say. What I was telling you on the walk because you like to talk about everything that you're going to do, right? And you're about to do an episode on something or other. So we were having this conversation about jealousy. And it came up, you said, you know, you're not really jealous. You don't really have jealousy in you. And I was like, well, I do. I just

like deal with it differently. And I was talking about how I feel sometimes jealous of sister She can't not be your sister. Like she's tied to you by blood forever. And you have to choose to be with me forever. It's like a choice, you know? And I know that we're tied energetically and legally, but you can always break that. Like you can't break up with your sister. And that gives me so much jealousy for sister. That's amazing. Well I will have you know that I do know people who have broken up with their sister. You can break up with your

sister. Some people have to break up with their sisters. It's true however you're not the kind of sister that people break up with, Sissy. Nope. She's not. She's not in the entire world. And for the people out there listening, Amanda Doyle, Glennon's sister is the takeer care of our family and not just Glennon and I, but like of our children, she's always holding everybody in place somehow. Like she is the strength. She is the person who makes everything less confusing because she's smarter than all of

us. No offense, Glennon. But she like legally takes care of us because she's smart with the law organizationally and then contractually and and then emotionally she's always there. Like the other day I said, you know, I want to get sister a sister somehow. Literally like Abby says to me, this is what she says to me sister, you're going through something and Abby goes, do you know what sister needs? She needs a sister. And she's looking at me saying these words. I'm like, what the hell do you think I am?

And she's like, you need a man to come and sister. Exactly. She needs like a bulldog, like someone who shows up no matter what, who always knows what to do, right? I mean, I don't always know what to do. I just, it's a beautiful thing. The symbiosis between the three of us. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar.

I'm a podcast producer and I'm someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food.

And I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts. Babe, now we need to bring our, your hard thing.

What is your hard thing that you're bringing to us today? Okay, I'm going to throw a little curveball and my apologies. What we in the sports world say, curveball or audible? Okay. You know what those mean? You do, your dad was a football guy. It's when you change plans at the last minute, which by the way, I'm really, really open to an easy breezy about. I'm not freaking out at all right now.

Okay. It's like we talked for six hours about what we're supposed to. You haven't told me what we're talking about six days. So there you go. So here is the deal. I'm having an intervention with you too because I'm not bringing my hard thing. I'm bringing something that I notice is both the all's hard thing. And we talk about it. We have talked about it. We have different opinions about the subject. And what I'm here to intervene with you to about is fun.

Oh, God. Having fun, defining fun, deciding what you each individually feel like is fun. I mean, this is an intervention and I'm not standing up from the seat until we figure it out for both of you. Is this because of the freaking garage this weekend? Yes. Yes, because tell the story, honey. Well, on Sunday morning, we had some time, which is weird, right? We just had some free time. And Abby was about to go do something, play golf or something. And she said, okay, I want you to tell me what do you want to do for fun today?

And I thought about it for a while. And then what did I suggest? She said, well, let's go clean out the garage. You want to do that with me? That sounds like fun. And I said that that that that is not fun. That's just you got really upset actually. I was like, what are you talking about? Like, no, that's a chore with like an outcome that'll make you feel good. But surely it's not fun. What is fun? So, hey, this is what I really don't understand.

Like, I truly have not, I don't understand what fun is. I understand what rest is. I understand what work is. I kind of understand what self care is, but this idea of fun of what you speak is not something I've grasped. So can you define for me what fun is to you?

Okay, so I know that everybody is going to have their own opinions and definitions in this, but for me personally, fun is the experience of joy. And sometimes that means you don't know what the outcome is. For me, I grew up competitive, I'm a competitor by nature. And so anytime I can weave in some sort of competition, which is why I like walking with you into the grocery store and beating you by one step. That's fun. Yeah, I will be getting out of my car.

Go into the grocery store. And the next thing I know, Abby's gone. Why is she gone? Because she's running ahead of me so she can beat me into the grocery store. As if I give a crap. That's the thing. I don't understand caring who wins things, but don't really don't understand caring. Would you agree though that nobody really wants to go to the grocery store?

Yeah. Okay, so sometimes when I have to do a chore of some sort, I weave in some semblance of fun, some sort of competition so that I can talk myself or or or or or fool myself into believing that, oh, this could be fun on some level. Okay. Sister, do you understand what fun is? What's your, what's a difference? She doesn't need that. She doesn't need that.

Well, I like to put the fun in function. And so I am, I find a lot of fun in things that are connected to some utility, some productivity, some, something that has some outcome from which I will derive joy. But so, and actually the process, the process of some, you know, like I like to go treasure hunting and find things, that is fun for me. But I like it like it thrift stops shops. You're talking. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yes. That's your head. That's right. So, but unfortunately Abby told me last night we're going to be talking about this today and apparently that those things don't count because play and fun by nature has to be like

purposeless. It has to be yes. it has to be done for its own sake, not connected to an outcome that you already know. So like, finding a $10 mid-century dresser at Goodwill is not the definition of fun, which is highly unfortunate. So I don't know, actually, but I do derive joy from things. Like I'm not a joyless person. Right, exactly. The idea of doing something

that is by definition purposeless is to me like hilarious. Although I did think, I'm just like, why would one? One can't know why one would do that, but I did think about'm just like, why would one? One can't know why one would do that. But I did think about it for a very long time and try to identify any single thing that I could connect with there.

And I know what it is. Riding roller coasters. Oh. Oh. Like being in a amusement park for any reason, like that it's an actual, I find it delightful. I love to get it. Yeah, that is, I mean, I've done it once in the past 20 years,

but when I think of, like that, I get that. That is a fun thing. But what about the rest of the amusement park experience? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, like a baby were there, we were talking to Karen and Jessica and none of them also understood what fun was. And so I thought, wait, why do women not understand fun, right? So we started talking about, is it because we're mothers, is it because we're caretakers, is it because we have so much to do that we always feel like something has to be productive? And then we decided, no, that it's earlier than that.

It's part of it, I'm not saying all of it, but part of it is being raised as girls in this culture where first of all, a lot of people find sport, you're talking about competitiveness in sports, people find fun in that. But girls are kind of teased early out of losing themselves in sport, right? We're kind of, you run like a girl, you're teased, and you start to feel self-conscious, right? That girls are trained to care about how we appear to other people,

or whether we're looking desirable or looking attractive or are we fitting in? And I think does fun require some kind of being unselfconscious? Does fun require losing yourself? And like not worrying about how you appear. And that is what is trained out of girls so early. And babe, I feel like you for some reason that conditioning did not sink in for you, which makes me feel like this is a difference between the two of us. So can you talk about that? Like, do you feel that you just didn't get? You're not a person who worries a lot about how you look.

Or you're not self-conscious. I don't care. My thought process of what the outworld, the world out there thinks of me is so little. Like I don't think about what other people, I mean I care about what you think of me, honey, but, and what sister thinks of me on some level, but the reality is growing up the way that I did, I was challenging from the very beginning the way that I was feeling on the inside. I didn't know that it was about my gainess. I didn't know that it was about being an inherent and born feminist.

Like I didn't know any of those things when I was young. All I knew is just that when I went out into the recess and got on the playground that I wanted to play as rough and hard and have as much fun as I saw the boys having. And it's like even though you may not have participated in the monkey bars or whatever it was on the playground, I wanted to have the ability to do that. And I knew that I could do it at the same level that they could. And so I think because I was also naturally gifted as an athlete, that gave me some leveling of social dynamics as a really young kid, which probably affected the way that I have the most fun doing is play golf. And like, I think both of you would want to like stab your eyes with forks out having to go play a round of golf right now. We did it once. We did it once together.

Golf, the game that is so incredibly boring. But don't worry, because it's also really stressful at the same time. And only like six hours long. And six freaking hours long. Not the way I play it, but thank you for bashing so much of my fun, honey. Okay, I'm so sorry. I'm sorry, but yeah, but it's fun for you. Can you just tell what's happening in your body?

Because I'm really trying to like, I understand that for me, like getting a massage is fun. Does that count? Like it does because if something sparks joy, it's like the Marie condo thing, right? Like if you hold something, if you're experiencing something, the thing is, I don't know if you and sister really, truly have experienced pure joy without like some sort of conclusion or a required outcome. You know, it's like going on the boat and for you Glenn and I know it's like being with the kids and having like a day that is full of complete life. Like I know that that fills you up. So and everybody's different.

Like you're not going to have the same kind of fun as as I am. But at the end of the day you have to figure out what fun is to you so that when you do walk away from work life, you don't have to totally reform and transition into a complete unknown. You have set up some foundational building blocks that will give you a little bit of confidence heading into that next part of your life. I feel like that's, I feel like there's two kind of tracks of what we're talking about and both are so important. Like what you're talking about Abby is play. Like play when you're growing up and the need to be connected inside your body, but unself conscious of how other people are viewing your body is all

about play. It's physical, you're getting lost in it. And I feel like for many, many girls, we've become so aware that our value is connected to how our bodies are perceived, that we very early lose the ability to become unself-conscious of our bodies. So that's like play. So there's a whole gendered space there.

But then there's this whole idea of fun too, which I think also we, at least I feel, Glenn, I'm interested to hear from you. I don't feel like we have great models for that either. Like even the idea of fun as separate from play. So maybe it's not physical, maybe you're not totally losing yourself in it, but just like your preference of what you desire to be doing with your time is a whole nother thing. Like I'm so we grew up sailing on our little sailboat all the time. And at my every weekend, all weekend, like mom like sailing the Missy about,

or did she ever consider whether it was relevant if she liked it? Did she like our house being decorated with civil war memorabilia and duck decoys and paintings of ships, or did she never think whether I prefer this is relevant to the conversation? And I think that's how I got to a place

when I was, you know, 26 and divorced and trying to figure out what is fun to me that I literally had no idea. Oh my God. That's so true. All we do is decide whatever the person we're trying to have a relationship with thinks is fun. And then we decide that that thing is fun. I mean, I spent my honeymoon on a fishing charter. Okay.

It never occurred to me to be like, is this my preferred way of spending on a tiny sun burning boat for eight hours with a stranger? I mean, it never occurred to me because, but that's deeper than that. It's like, it's the decision to try to acclimate to what is fun to your person. Because what do you do, the outcome of that you like, you like this happy arrangement with this person

where they're happy and that makes you happy. But it never, like, that's acclimating to that set of fun is so much easier and more palatable than, and natural to me, frankly, then determining what my phone would look like, and then asking for accommodation to what that looks like. Well, exactly because it's more acceptable culturally, too. I mean, I remember I'm having a flash right now of sitting on a couch in college. I used to spend a good amount of time watching my boyfriend play video games.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, watching him, that was what I would have told you I was having fun doing. Like, and it wasn't weird. It wasn't weird for girls to sit and watch their boyfriends play video games. Yes it is. It's so weird, but I'm just saying it wasn't perceived as weird. I wasn't uncommon. But if that were flipped, would my

boyfriend have watched me do yoga? Or none of that, that would have been less normal, right? And also, we're always saying, like what you just said, babe, you know, when we're together with the family, I would probably tell you that what's fun for me is to do whatever my kids think is fun. But that's also not fun. That's right. For me. Yeah, it's because it's basing somebody else's opinion about what they want to be doing and taking it on as your own. So I think that you guys have a fun, stunted growth because of the way that you were raised on a sailboat truly.

And I think that because the way that maybe you've perceived the modeling of what being a good wife is, it's like you have to ask the people around you like, what is fun? I mean, honey, you actually asked me that all the time. Like, what do I want to do today? Like, what do I think is fun? What do I want?

What do I like? What is fun? I know what I want to actually say is, have you ever thought about why watching our women's national soccer team is so interesting for women? Oh, God, it makes you know, you know how emotional it makes me it makes me so emotional. Why? I'm so glad you brought that up. It's because watching women use their bodies to compete instead of perform, to the way they just try so hard and don't give a shit

what it looks like. They're not trying to be pretty, they're trying to be fierce, they're sweating and they're doing it for themselves and for each other and they could give a shit what anybody else is seeing. It's, they're completely lost. They're using their bodies in a way that I have never seen modeled for me.

I mean, you're right. That's a beautiful, it affects me deeply. It moves me deeply. Even watching my girls watch or my son watch that moves me. Both men and women, right? A lot of times I've been told, you know, I just, I don't know why I love watching you so much and a lot of times it's covered up with this whole winning thing, which helps. I do understand that.

But I think it's way deeper than that. I think for women, it's like this, this awareness, like this, a, a great deep learning about what could be. And then for men too, because they also are conditioned to believe that like women don't know how to have fun, because we never have been given the chance or taken the opportunity to have fun. I think that that's why I confuse both of you so much

is like all I'm looking for in life is to have fun. It's why I turned into an alcoholic. It's the reason why it's the reason why it took me so long to get sober because I quite frankly, I thought that all of my fun would be zapped, like just gone instantly as soon as I stopped drinking. But the reality is, you have to create new ways of having fun without drinking, obviously. But I don't know, I just feel we all have to do a little bit of digging on you individually, on me individually. What do I experience as joy? And what I do now is different

than 10 years ago. We'll be different what I do in 10 years. But the experience of it, like I enjoy doing something new for the first time, just to see if it's going to be fun. I know it's so wild. I think it's an interesting thought and challenge for us all to think about a little bit. Because when you even look at what's modeled for women as fun in the world, it's always like, let's go get it manicure. Or like something that's based on what the way the world perceives us instead of the experience we're having, right? Or the idea of, let's just the wine culture, right?

Let's just all just get drunk, which doesn't really teach us anything more about ourselves, culture, right? Let's just all just get drunk, which doesn't really teach us anything more about ourselves, either, right? So, all right, let's sign off here. We're gonna have to take a break and we'll get into some hard questions. Can you think of anything fun that you want to try in the next month?

And I wanna ask you a question, babe, is reading and thinking about the book, does that count as fun? Because I feel like that's great fun to me. That is one source of fun. I've always had since I was little. Does that count? I think so. I absolutely think so. I think that seeing how you devour books, like you don't just sit, you're not just doing it to pass the time. You're actually interested in what's happening. Yes. And what you're listening, what you're reading, and then when you go on your walks, you're thinking about the thing that you just read. Like that to you, I think, is actual joy. Yes, and also I thought of another one. How about going to an art museum

or a concert, but not with a ton of people, just like a few people at the concert. And I thought of another one. What if in the future, we have some kind of social situation because I'm always about to be social. Like I'm about to figure the social thing out. It's probably gonna happen next year, I'm about to have friends. So I can picture a scenario that would be fun,

where we are in our living room and there's a few other people there. And we know these people well, okay? And they might be all women or there might be a couple men but the men that are there have no toxic energy, okay? There, they might be gay or they might just be these unicorn men

that have no toxic energy. And they're there and we are all talking about like funny but cool but serious things. We're not just talking about bullshit and people who drink are drinking and people who don't drink are not drinking but the people who are drinking are not getting wasted and being annoying. They're just drinking and then everyone leaves at 8.45. Okay, so honey. Can that happen because that sounds fun. I think it could happen. I don't want to worry that they're not going to leave. Okay, so honey. Can that happen? Because that sounds fun. I think it could happen.

I don't want to worry that they're not going to leave. I want it to be understood. Stop, stop, stop. Okay. What you need to understand is that this can't just be a thought. Like the way that fun is had is you actually have to experience it, right? So we are, we are going to spend the next six months talking about this futuristic social gathering that we will then find any kind of possible problem which will lead us to never pick a specific person or a couple. Okay. All right. So, okay. So, we'll try it. Because here's the thing. Like, one of the most important elements of fun is that you don't know what the outcome is

going to be. So, the act of life of, like, experience, you might have fun, and you also might not, but that gives you some information of what you should do next time or what you should do next time. All right. That sounds like great fun. I do think it's, we need to address the fact though, that there is some of this disparity has to do

with privilege and the ability to have time. Yes. And this disparity between like levels of needs, right? So a lot of women in their roles are the caretakers there. They're, they're making sure that all the immediate needs get met. And so if they have any amount of time left, that they need to rest. Yes.

Right? And so rest is at a higher need level than the next level, which is this idea of play and fun. And I actually always thought that if, I read this thing recently from this doctor and he said that the opposite of play isn't work, it's depression. Ooh.

Which was so interesting to me because I always thought that like the absence of work, rest is enough. Like as long as you get enough rest, then from your work, then you can avoid this kind of malaise that you get where you're just putting one foot in front of the other, but you're never really driving joy out of your days.

That, my problem was a deficiency of rest, but that isn't it, apparently. Apparently, rest is to work. What play is to gloom. Wow. So you can't rise out of your melancholy just based on rest. You actually have to actively add in the antidote to that, which is fascinating to me. So I just think from a perspective of women who are kind of always only getting to the urgent things, that this sense of melancholy that I go through a lot, that I think a lot of us go through, that you actually should

be prescribing yourself some of this fun. And whatever small doses you can get because apparently, and this was news to me, that resting is not the same as that. Yes. Wow. It's really good. And I think that, you know, Glenn and there's times where I'm like, Hey, um, have you run in a glen in today? And you're like, yes.

And sometimes that happens earlier in days than the normal. Yeah, and maybe this is it Maybe the antidote or the prescription is Is that you need to have a little bit more play in your life so that you can stay Having enough Glen and for the whole day All right sounds like a challenge All right, thank you babe. It was really fun having you here. Thanks for having me. I love you so much.

I love you, Sissy. I love you. We'll get you on a roller coaster soon. Yes. And we're going to take a break and we'll be back with some hard questions. Okay, sister, our first question today is from Sarah. Hi, Glenin. My name is Sarah. I'm a wife, sister, daughter, mother, and healthcare worker.

When I think about my life, it strikes me that I've never known how to have fun. When I think about my family, it strikes me that none of us, none of the women, my mother, my grandmother, cousins, sisters, aunts, have fun. The closest we get to having fun is drinking wine together. I keep asking myself, what do you want to do for fun?

But I have no answer, just silence. I'm worried that I was born without a fun self, or that my fun self is dead. What do you think? Thanks for the show. So the gendered thing is so interesting, right? I was talking to a friend about this recently. And at first, she was not buying the whole gendered idea on fun, right? That women don't know how to have fun and men do.

Which is, of course, a huge generalization. And I'm just saying it because it's always true. Okay. So, but then she started thinking back to her childhood, right? She knows how to have fun this time. So that's why she was pushing back on this idea because she is the opposite of me on the fun spectrum. She has actual hobbies.

I know. I know. I know. I know. I think she likes to do when she has free time. She understands what to do with free time. She has passions. It's so interesting.

And so that's why she was pushing back on this idea of it being gendered, but then she started thinking back on her childhood, okay? And like where it was that she developed these hobbies and fun things. And she remembered that well, her parents were divorced. Okay. So every week she would live, during the week she would live with her mom.

And her mom would do, you know, the wake up in the school and the homework and the dinner and the bedtime. Repeat, repeat, repeat, all the things. Right. And then on Friday afternoon, she would get dropped off at her debts. And then she would have fun for the weekend.

Okay, so for 48 hours, they'd have fun together. Her dad was an awesome dad. He would take her to do all the things he loved to do, right? They'd go to baseball games, they'd go to the photography store, and then go take pictures, they would go to movies, they would listen to music together by records,

go to the record store, right? So as my friend grew, she learned to love what her dad loved. Right? And so as adults, they were super tight. That's what they did together. They still went to movies. They still went to baseball games and on and on. And so her point was that she said, now that I think about it,

I've never seen my mom have fun. Like I actually don't even know, I know what my dad left. I don't know what my mom loves. I don't know what my mom likes or dislikes. I've actually never invited my mom to go to a movie. Right? And she said the interesting thing is

whenever she and her mom do have some free time together, they don't know what to do. Often her mom will just say, well, do you wanna just like go grab a glass of wine? Right? So it's just got me thinking, is it possible that families have historically been and still often are structured in a way

that means men often have more time and energy in space to find out what they like and dislike, right? To find out what is fun to them and what brings them to life, and women often have not had that time to discover their humanity, right? So that often means that we know our fathers as human beings as people and we know our mothers as Devoted selfless caretakers and servants Okay, but anyway, she actually asked me specific question Julia or who Sarah Sarah is worried that she was born without a fun cell. Oh right. Okay I'm with you. I'm with you Sarah. I also was

worried about that. Here's my theory. Okay. My theory is not that our fun self is completely dead. Right? That we do have a fun self. It's just that she's hibernating. Like she started, she gave up on us and we gave up on her. Like she just decided to go dormant when we stopped feeding her or asking her opinion on anything. And so what Sarah said, I understand like when I sit there, it drives Abby crazy. When I sit there and ask myself, what do you want to do self? What would be fun for you? It's just radio silence. Right? But there is this magical thing that happens every once in a while that sister you and I have talked about. Okay.

I'm gonna set this scene for you. I'm taking my kids to soccer. That's all I do all day, every day. Until I die. Okay. And they're all in the car, and usually they get to control the radio, but every once in a while, like a few weeks ago, white snake came on.

Okay. Here I go again on my mo-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o And something just, Emma went to change the station. Oh hell no. No, and I said stop. And I cranked up white snake. Just so you know, there's five kids in my car at that point. Other people's children in the car. But for a moment, I was freaking Tonny Coutain in that convertible.

I, my fun self just blossomed up and was like, hell, yes, here I go again on my own, okay? Every once in a while, music, okay, I'll be listening, I'll be doing the dishes, I'll be doing the dishes. Okay. And while I'm doing the dishes and it's quiet, I am a boring, long-suffering, bitter, sad woman, bitter woman. Yes. But then the right song will come on. I don't know what it is. It could be, I don't know, it could be the spice girls. It could be Beyonce. It could be Banchovi. It could be, I don't know, it could be the spice girls. It could be Beyonce, it could be Bon Jovi.

It could be, and suddenly I am alive again. I'm still doing the dishes. But my fun self, it's like she smelled a delicious aroma and she has awakened. It's you got out of your head. Like that's what it is. I mean, we live so much inside our heads, we're living with like the ticker

that never stops in the head. And there's something that, I mean, other people who have like hobbies and stuff, this is the way they get out of their head, but like just the music, it takes us out of the interior and like, in live in some part of us. And I think that it does, I get that completely.

In fact, I'm so glad you brought that up because I don't integrate music the way you do in your life, except that a couple of weeks ago you posted a set of like three videos where you were on your boat, you were driving your boat and you were singing and dancing to songs, and you were just they were amazing. I watched them like 1400 times because I felt something when I was watching them. When I was watching you sing and dance, and I realized that I don't have that feeling in my life.

And so I swear to you for the past couple weeks since I watched that, I've been like, I'm gonna put music on. I never put music on. I'm in my car, I'm like listening to NPR, I'm doing whatever. So I was like, I'm gonna put music on and I swear to you that it's doing something. It's like, it's taking me out of the trap of my head. It's like, and it's not adding something to my plate.

It's just these regular moments, like you said, like the dishwasher or the driving, it's just these interstitial, like joy moments that otherwise would have not been the joy moments. And I realize it's a real thing. Like I feel like in the story of my life, it becomes like the daily grind. It's like my life story reads like endless pages of footnotes. It's like that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, I swear to you that it allows me to see the poetry of my life.

Like allows me to see things that take me out of the footnotes and it's like, oh my gosh. This seems to some cheesy country song. I'm like, I love my husband. Yes. Remember when I thought I country songs was who I was, so I moved to a town with one stoplight and then I realized I was just songs was who I was, so I moved to a town with one stoplight, and then I realized I was just a person who liked country music, and not actually a country person.

And I remember that. I do remember that. One of the nine moves. It's because you, it's this thing of you thinking in spreadsheets and me thinking in colors, it's like you actually don't believe you need art in your life to be a human being, right? And art, good books,

beautiful movies, music, it's something that wakes up the humanity in us that is separate than this capitalistic grind that wants to keep us productive over and over and over. It's like its resistance. Like, rest, art, there are these things that don't make sense in terms of productivity. And so it feels like holding on to your humanity in a culture that doesn't want you to do that, that wants you to just keep thinking you have to produce and that your worth is based on what you contribute

as opposed to what you experience. And I think the experience part of it is huge. I don't have experiences where I'm not just totally inside my head. And so the things, and I don't drink anymore, right? So that was the way I used to get outside of the trap of whatever was just an unconstant loop in my head, but the music does, it takes me out of the loop. Like it puts me in a different loop. And I, and I, and this is another thing that, this is like a tragic, um, reality that I have become aware of in my own life, that I think that actually, that the way that I feel about the people in my life

and my daily life has much less to do about the people in my life and my daily life and the way I feel about them has to do with how I feel. A, man, if I'm happy, I love you. If I'm unhappy, you suck. Well, and it's just like that is that to me. It seems so simple and ridiculous, but it really feels true. And so when I, these moments where I can get myself outside of the loop, I can see it better. I can see it all in a different way than when I'm trapped in it. And for me, music has done it. And it feels doable. It feels for someone like me. Like you can just add a little bit in. And also

bonus, ding, ding, ding, when you put music on them, you're with your kids. It's like you're playing, but you don't have to play. Exactly. It's the playing for people who hate playing, like us. It's like you're suddenly a fun, loving house. Look how playful we are. Look how we're like us. Yes, absolutely.

We're a little band. Now continue without me, please, over there. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. We're a little band to now continue without me, please over there. Yeah. Oh God. Okay. Speaking of music, I'm very glad you brought that up because I want to ask you a question. Okay. I know you don't pay attention to any of this. And so you won't have a clue about this. I hope this isn't dropping something on you. But I do pay very close attention to these things. So I want to ask you about those videos that I was just talking about on the boat. So when you posted those, you were driving your boat, the music was blasting, you were singing and dancing,

and you were so happy and free. Okay, on that day, you had the single biggest unfollowed day of ever. So on social media on that day, more people unfollowed your page than ever in like 10 years. So I was watching this folks. I'm following and I kept thinking about that part of untamed where you said, it's easier for the world to love a suffering woman than it is for the world to love a joyful, confident woman. And I'm just wondering what you make

of that. Like this like audaciously free happy woman living unapologetically in that moment, it clearly made so many people just deeply uncomfortable. Like what is that about? Well listen, okay, I'll set this in this. Abby and I live on a little canal off the Gulf of Mexico. And when we moved here, we got this boat and it's so wonderful.

It's a little fishing boat. We don't fish. But it's in a dock in our backyard, so we can literally get on our little boat. The first few times we were out on the Gulf of Mexico on it, I realized I was happier than I had ever been in my entire life. With my wife out on the Gulf of Mexico, can't see land anywhere. No one is driving this boat except for the two of us. I used to look at her in the driver's seat and think, oh my god, why is the world letting us do this? Like, no one is the boss of us. We are completely free. When just, it just was utter joy and this like wild thing, it brought up in me.

And when we were thinking about what we're going to name the boat, we decided what is that wild free spirit? And we could think of only Liz's partner, Reya, who died, but her spirit was so unbelievably free and wild. And so we named the boat Reya. So I used to let Abby drive the boat all the time. I didn't ever want to like, I was too scared to take we named the boat Raya. So I used to let Abby drive the boat all the time I didn't ever want to like I was too scared to take control of the boat and recently I learned how to drive

the boat because I was like this is bullshit like stop it you can do this and I learned how to drive the boat. So I was on the boat that day we had the kids on the boat I was driving and Abby was videoing me because music if you think it's good in the kitchen, it's so good on the, you just like, she was videoing me dancing to, I think, all about that base. Okay. No, I hate that song. I think it's terrible. I can't stand it. I think it's so obnoxious and anti-feminist. Fine. I loved it that day. Okay. And then the spice girls came on and then pink. I am here, came on. So I was like, it was like the best dancing day. So Abbie was videoing me.

She showed me the video later. And honestly, sister, when I watched that video, my thought was, this is my favorite version of myself. I'm driving that freaking boat. I'm dancing, I'm happy, I'm free. I have like sweatpants and a tank top and a baseball cap and a teeny top on. I just like felt so I was like, I love myself in this. And I posted it. And and maybe so many people unfollowed because my dancing was bad. But I don't think so.

I actually think if my dancing had been bad, more people would have said it. I think that the problem was my dancing was actually kind of good. It was good. It was good. It was for me. Come on. It was totally very good. Yeah, for me.

Killing very good. I think the truth is the happier, the more joyful, the more successful, the more bold a man is, the more the world likes and trusts him, and the more successful, confident, bold and happy and free. A woman is the less we like and trust her, right? And so something when we see that, it irks us, right? And you know, that's why so many people end up saying, I don't know, it's just something about her.

I can't put my finger on it. I can put my finger on it. It's internalized misogyny, right? Well, is it because we don't give ourselves permission or feel like we are able to be happy so that when someone else is doing it, it's this adacious kind of clash that we can't really identify, but we're like, that feels bad because I want it. Yeah, I think that's how I used to deal with envy all the time. Every time I felt envious of something, it would hurt inside and I would shut it down. I would just decide I didn't, I hated that person, I just shut it down

until I realized that envy is of course a red flashing arrow pointing me towards the thing I want And so I can either decide Well, you did it you were like that makes me feel something I want that I'm gonna try to incorporate that into my life You can do that and use it Now that's what I try to do when someone does something awesome that makes me feel jealous. I just try to sit with it and think like, okay, what is it telling me that I want that I was made to do next? You know, but I mean, listen, I know people who women who when they feel like they're being too happy or fulfilled or successful or whatever, they will know that because of the way the

world works that they will need to insert something a post or whatever that shows them really weak and vulnerable and sad. Because the world will only tolerate a happy woman for so long. Right? So I mean, I don't know. It makes me, it makes me, you know, I used to, I caught myself when I first was promoting love warrior and untamed. I would catch myself every time someone said, so you left your husband, I would find

myself making sure I brought up the infidelity right away. My ex-husband's infidelity. Whenever anyone talked about the success of my books or my speaking career or you, I would find myself right away bringing up the nonprofit, bringing up togetherizing. Because I know that the world will only allow me to do what I want to do in that marriage, if I have a get out of jail free card, if I have permission because he was unfaithful. And I know that the world will only allow me to do well in the world if I'm doing good. Right? So it's okay that I'm successful at books because I do all this charity work and I'm an

activist and I'm going to... And I caught myself doing that and I stopped. I do not... Because I do not want women to listen to me and feel like they need a permission slip to do what they want in the world. And I don't want them to feel like they need an excuse for doing well. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, it's about worthiness, right? Like when people see that video of you, they don't think they're jealous of you on the boat. They think at a deep level, I do not believe that I am worthy of joy in my life. And it is offensive to me when someone is audaciously claiming

their worth that way. I mean, maybe they just freaking hate my dancing. It could be a lot of things. But you know what, it makes me actually more hell-bent on showing myself in those strong moments. Because, you know, I've never pretended to be stronger than I am in any given moment. And so I'm sure as hell, not going to pretend to be less strong than I happen to be in a particular moment. Right? My promise has been that in every moment,

I'm going to show up how I am, exactly how I am inside of my moment. That's been my promise to the world. So when I'm feeling free and strong and joyful, I'm going to show up that way. And honestly, I think that we all need to show ourselves in those moments too. And I think we need to stop requiring, suffering and sadness and meekness from other women, right? Normalize joy for women. Yeah! So that eventually it becomes less shocking and audacious and annoying for women to show themselves a strong and happy.

Okay, everybody. This is our next right thing for the week. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to listen to music this week. We're not even going to add an extra thing to do. We're just going to add this thing to what we're already doing. Okay, we're going to put on music during our regular day in the car, in the kitchen, at work, wherever we are. We're going to do that to awaken this fun self inside of us and let her know that we still believe in her, right?

And we're gonna be calling on her soon. So I have made a playlist of fun songs for you. The link to that playlist is gonna be in the show notes. I do not want you to notice that all of these songs are from 20 years ago. I did notice it, it's possible that that that's the last time I had fun. If it's not your jam, make a list of jams for yourself, of fun jams, right? So see, is this what we're asking them to do?

Yes, so the link to the playlist is in the notes to this podcast. And we're also going to do a post on your social details on the playlist. And there we want people to tell us the songs that awaken their fun self. So we can keep building this out for folks. Awesome, we're gonna save the world. They're fun songs this week. Love it, Sissy.

Okay, everybody, thank you for being with us today. When life gets hard this week, don't forget, we can do hard things. We will see you back here next week. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. I walked through fire I came out the other side. I chased desire I made sure I got once mine I continue to believe that I'm the one for me

And because I mine I walk the line Cause we're adventurous and hard-braised on map A final destination that we stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache

I hid rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak So man, A final destination with land

We stopped asking directions So places they've never been Can to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do our thing This poor adventurous and heart breaks on my We might get lost, but we're only in that

Stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be long We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives breathe We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things.

We can do hard things. Is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine. you