We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Geena Davis: How to Thelma & Louise Your Life

Episode Date: November 1, 2022

1. The politeness curse – and how it almost killed Geena.   2. Geena’s brilliant “Oops…” strategy to get folks to act decent.   3. Abby thanks Geena for the monumental impact of A League of Their Own on her life. 4. The story behind the iconic ending of Thelma and Louise. 5. The hilarious story of why Geena’s mom chose her name – setting her on an unlikely feminist path.   CW: Brief mention of sexual assault About Geena:  Geena Davis is a two-time Academy Award winning actor and has appeared in roles that became cultural landmarks including Muriel Pritchett in The Accidental Tourist, Thelma in Thelma & Louise, and Dottie Hinson in A League of Their Own. She is also a world-class athlete, a member of the genius society Mensa, and is now recognized for her advocacy for women and girls as Founder and Chair of the Emmy-winning non-profit Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media, which engages film and television creators to dramatically increase the percentage of female characters, and reduce gender stereotyping, in media made for children. Her memoir, DYING OF POLITENESS, is available now.  TW: @GeenaDavisOrg IG: @geenadavisorg To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. I chased desire, I made sure I got once my... Welcome to a thrilling episode of We Can Do Hard Things with us today is Gina Davis. Who is a two-time Academy Award-winning actor and has appeared in roles that became cultural

landmarks including Muriel Pritchett in the accidental tourist, Velma in Thelma and Louise, and Dady Hinson. What? What? Abby's made all in a week of their own. She's also a world-class athlete, a member of the Genius Society Mensa, and is now recognized for her advocacy for women and girls, as founder and chair of the Emmy-winning non-profit Gina Davis Institute on Gender and Media,

which engages film and television creators to dramatically increase the percentage of female characters and reduce gender stereotyping in media made for children. Her memoir, Dying of Politeness, is available now. Gina Davis, thank you for doing so many hard things. Thank you, Glenn, and wow, I sound good on paper. No, no, no. You do. Damn good. You're really good.

And speaking of sounding, I just have to start with this. I just think it's so amazing that your mom spelled your name, GE-E-N-A, and you thought that was because she just wanted you to be special and unique. But tell me why your mother told you she spelled it that way instead of G I N A. I thought it was because she didn't know how to spell. I actually spelled Gina and that she thought she was making up the name. Right. And also cute that she didn't know how to spell it. So when I was visiting one time, she had been reading like little interviews

or clippings about me. And she said, people seem to love your name, the way your name is spelled. I said, I know, yeah, I just tell them you didn't know how to spell it. And she said, Oh, no, no, no, no. I know, I know exactly how to spell it. I grew up in an Italian neighborhood. I know very well how you actually spell it. I said, really? Then why did you spell it that way? And she said, well, I didn't want people to think it was So my entire adorable identity is based on fear of the vagina. It's so good. It's too perfect for work. I mean, it's this our feminist icon warrior. Her name originates from fear of a genus. It's so good. It's the best.

So can we start by talking about your parents a little bit? Because we already told a really good one, Adizzi. But I love, you say you were raised by new England parents who taught you that being polite was the most important thing in the world. Perhaps, Gina, even more important than life itself. Can you tell us the story about being eight years old and driving with your uncle Jack?

Yes, yes. So my parents and I were in a car driven by my great uncle Jack who was 99 at the time and his wife is my aunt is in front seat, passenger side. So we're driving home at night from a restaurant and it's even quite a deserted twolayered street, no room on the sides. And then it wasn't like you just veer into the oncoming home. Veer back again. And then veer back in the oncoming lane and back. But you know, there haven't been any cars coming. But you know, it was alarming. And my parents didn't say anything. parents didn't say anything.

And they didn't say anything. I think it was my mom. I was right behind Uncle Jack, and she picked me up and put me in the middle between them because maybe I would die less when we had Uncle Lizzy. Less time. We had somewhat. No, not a real physical horse

that I would now have a street shot through the windshield. No, we're not realizing of course that I would now have a street shot through the windshield. But so we're continuing like that. And now he veers into the oncoming lane, you know, it's straddling the yellow line. But now there's a car coming. And there's nowhere for either side to pull over. It's

like a little narrow street. And nobody, my parents still say anything. And it's going to happen. We're going to have a head on collision with this car. Oh my God. In seconds, they don't say anything. And finally, at the last instant,

I'm Marian says, a little to the right, Jack. And he just bears a little bit. And the car streaks past us so close that I get very easily to see the faces, the horrifying faces of the people in the other car. And it really wasn't until much later that I realized my parents were willing to die or end, including till their child or allow their child to die rather than

be in play. And they could have done what Aunt Mariette said. They could have said, oh Jack, please turn a little turn to the right, please. Perhaps a normal person would have said, turn to the right, please. Perhaps a normal person would have said, holy God, I'm going to reject you, but it's still us all. Yeah, we'll go over and get out of the car. I'm driving the rest of the car. Yes. And then, yeah, they say, I'm going to drive now, but that didn't happen. But I was literally only spared because not because my parents spoke up. Mm-hmm.

For sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So interesting. One of the things that you talk about so much in the first part of your book is all of these feelings you had, which we hear from our own brains and women all the time, about feeling too much. You say, you felt too tall to hide. You once asked a pastor how to make boys like you. And he said, why don't you try being more quiet, not so big sometime?

Fuck you. And you said, you said my dream going up was to take up less space in the world. Right. I just felt like I was taking up too much space. What does that do to us? Cause it's almost like not being polite. Like if you're a girl who's taking up too much space. What does that do to us? Because it's almost like not being polite. Like if you're a girl who's taking up too much space, did you always feel like you were in polite

because you were existing? Because you were existing. It's true. It's true. I didn't want to over-exist. And I didn't want to over-exist. I didn't want to push my existence on anybody. Yeah, it was really true.

Over-exist. That's good. What is that about? Is it needs? Because when you think about what is the like crux of that sin of saying something? Is it, I have a need that is outside of what you're providing right now. And I should just wait and be provided. You say that you grew up even if someone was had a cup of ice water in their hands, I was about to hand it to you. You were taught to say, no, no, thank you.

I'm not thirsty. Even if you were thirsty and even if they were giving it to you. Right. So exactly. It was having needs. That was the embarrassing thing, or the thing that must be avoided at all times is having a need because that would be in polite

To need anything from anybody. Yeah, but on the other hand their philosophy of my parents philosophy was Give give give give my parents would do anything for anybody my dad fixed everybody's furnace and broken pipes and cars or whatever But not to take anything for yourself. So then you are a kid, you get a paper out. And you are abused by one of the men on your paper out. And in the wake of that, you come home and you tell your mom. And your mom goes to talk to him, but never talks to you about it and never presses charges or anything. So you say, when it comes not to not talking about things, we new Englanders are gold medalists, we'll not talk about anything. So how did the not talking about the abuse affect you and what

do you wish that they had done differently? Well, first of all, at 10, I had no idea that there was anything between my legs besides that's where you pee. Like I had never heard the term your privates, nothing, nothing, nothing like that. So first it started, he just wanted to give me a big hug when I delivered the paper and he gave me like twigies or something, you know, every time I came in and then we got long hugs and then finally he started reaching down with his fingers and touching me. And I didn't feel shame. I didn't feel shock. I just didn't know what it meant.

It just seemed strange that that was happening. And so it went on for a while until one day, I finally said to my mom, you know what's so weird? I don't understand what this is. Why he touches me like this? And I did it to her because I had no idea that it would mean anything to her either. And she flew through the sea like a rocket.

She just went crazy. But then, strode up the middle of the street and disappeared into his house and everything. And I was like, what? What is this about? What, what, what? And it came back and said, you are never to go in his house again. You have to leave, you leave the paper at the level on, you're not delivering his favor anymore, but he's still delivering it, but leave it at the bottom of the stairs. And didn't say anything about what it was about, or even, you know, he shouldn't have told you there was no escalation whatsoever about what happened. And so I felt like I did something so horrific.

They shouldn't even tell me what it is. It's just so embarrassing. I've made such a horrible mistake that I don't know what it is. I loved that she acted on it immediately. She wasn't polite about storming up the street and telling him, you will never touch her again, but she didn't follow through with teaching me how to avoid something like that in the in the future. Thank you for sharing that.

Yeah, thank you. Kind of like it's so interesting as parents like your cat died, right? Yeah. And then you were, they didn't talk to you about it and I just relate to this as a parent so much like they didn't talk to you about your cat dying So that they wouldn't traumatize you Yeah, but didn't you just felt traumatized like where the hell my cat go? Oh my god. Yeah the cat got hit by a car and we were quite young Are you quite low and we asked you know? where's Sonny, we didn't see him. Oh, he ran away, but he's living with another family. We're sure. And he's time. And uh, what? What? He what? We're not gonna look for him. We're not gonna find somebody else, get our cat.

I don't understand anything. And on and on and on. And so began years of my brother and I trying to find out where Sonny is. And my God. To be in another state, drive it along. And if we saw a yellow cat on the side of the road, we're gonna stop the car and cut me sunny.

And it just went on and on and on. And they must have thought, Jesus God, we made the wrong choice. Because it didn't spare us. No whatsoever from feeling pain. And certainly tortured them. And I would imagine that it gives you some kind of kids some kind of shame too. It's like when you don't explain it right, whether it's the abuse or the leaving of the cat,

the kid is left like, what did I do? Yeah. Yeah. How am I supposed to process this? I mean, no, My parents love animals. They were obsessed with pets and animals. And that they would say, oh, you know, he's totally fine. He's run away. But I'm sure he's found a very nice family. Aren't we dying? Yeah.

We're the nicest. Nobody's nice to the best. Oh, my way back. You're right. Nobody is nicer than us. That's how. I would be back. You're right. Nobody is nicer than us. That's how you knew it was a lie, Gina. There's no case there's family up there. So, you're 12.

You're 12. And you read an article called Why Feminists Are Ruining the World. Right. And you thought I will never be one of those terrible people. Right? As God is my witness. As God is my witness. As God is my witness, I'd never heard the word. Nobody had ever ever ever talked about it.

And I was learning. It was sort of political article, but of horrible feminism was. And I thought, wow, that's something horrible. Only women can be. And I am so now, at least I know now, you know, what this thing is, you know, what it's called. And I will never be that. So it's so hilarious that there's pretty much the opposite happens. So you try to figure out how you're never going to catch feminism. And then, and then I love this.

Second wave feminism comes in, and there's all these shows. And this is so cool the way you talk about this, that bewitched came to the screen and I dream of Jeannie. And reading this, I'm like, yeah, those are like cool shows about women having superpowers. But then you say, actually, they were largely about being told to sit on their

magical talents by the men in their lives. Right. And then you say, this happened in like several of my marriages. How much point I put down the book to laugh out loud. Well, you know, it's not necessarily true, but well, it's a good line. What did you mean by that? Staying small to make men feel comfortable, I imagine. How has this happened in your life?

Yes, and I'm not saying that I was forced to do that. It was just how I operated. You know, I used to be incredibly shy when I first met men and I only later come to realize that I think I felt like I didn't know how they wanted me to be. And if I could be shy for a little while and figure out what they seemed to like or want, what they seemed to like or want. Then I can be that, but I'm gonna just hold my cards close to the best until I figure out what's appealing to that. That worked out well.

That worked out so good. I did a little while in, you're like, the fuck am I doing? Yeah. That sounds right. That tracks for me. You turn yourself into a little bit of a pretzel. Yeah. That's the kick in the shorts of life because needs are needs.

And you can just put those bad boys in a bottle like a genie for as long as you can, but they're going to come out. Yeah. Yeah. You're out. Yeah. Yeah, you're ready? Yeah. Yeah. I'm Jonathan Menevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things.

But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself.

Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. decide to go into acting, Gina. I don't know how to ask you this, but like, you talk about when you're backstage, okay, and you're getting ready to do your acting. I don't even know if there's a backstage in front of the camera. What ever sister, just, I don't know about acting.

All right, you're preparing on the chat. I'm off set there. Offset, whatever. In her trailer. Okay, and you're supposed to instead of manufacturing emotions, you're supposed to work with what you have, you say. So there's the scene where this character is supposed to be enraged and broken down. So you say you have to really prepare using your sense memory stuff. What the holy hell does that mean? What do you how? What?

So yeah, I mean the way the way I was approaching acting, I don't know what you would label this, but was if you have to find in yourself a time when you were sad or just you know bring up the emotion so that you can then act with that you know having that emotion. And so that's how I always did things. But after I majored in acting in college, once I was in New York, I had an acting teacher who was very big on using what you're already feeling. He'd have somebody perform a monologue and then he'd say, what happened to you before this, earlier today?

What happened on the way here? Well, I missed the fucking bus and I couldn't believe it. I hadn't paid my rent, whatever it was. And he said, do it again, but keep that feeling. And you realize that no matter what you think the character should be feeling, you can add how you are actually feeling. It sounds like it's a complicated but it's actually very simple.

But it's another layer. Give it a listen so you're doing a comedy, a funny scene, but you get just done. I mean, just put that as a subtext layer in there, and that will help because any kind of emotion is energetic. You know, it's powerful. So anyway, so I thought I understood this and learned it, but then I had a screen test for the accidental tourists,

this movie, the accidental tourists. This little movie, this little little, I don't know if people watched it. I just get heard of it. So I had a screen test and I had never done that before. And I was very, very nervous. And so I was going to actually be on camera with William Hurk. And I knew there were three other women that were having a screen test too.

So it was a very, very, very nerve-wracking. And one of the scenes was very emotional. I had to be very, very emotional. So they're getting ready, they're setting up, and I'm behind the, you know, whatever, and backstage. And preparing, and I'm thinking about dead cats, and I like, you know, whatever, I'm getting very, very emotional.

And I'm already, and then suddenly they say, they say, Gina, sorry, we broke a light, it's gonna be about 10 minutes. It's like, no, no, oh no, I'll never, I'll never get that back again. What the fuck, they just ruined my life. They just, everything is ruined because now I won't be able to, actually, yes, they ruined my life. It's terrible. I, everything is ruined. I won't get

the part. Ah, and, uh, so then I'm like, I'm ready. I'm ready again. And they say, uh, okay, Gina, we're ready. It's about 30 seconds. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm so angry. I'm so upset. And the hairdresser comes over to just like touch, touch up my hair right before I go out. And she accident, you know, those comes, they have a point. Yeah. And she poaks me in the eye. I think accidentally. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, you just ruined my life. Oh my god. You just, I was gonna go out there and be upset. And I still upset.

Thank you very much, Julia. So it's like misery inception. It's like layers and layers. Oh, it's so good. I know, use that layer. That was such a lesson. In real time, I experienced an incredible lesson. Yeah.

I love it. So is acting just tremendously terrible then? Because you're always conjuring, what I mean, you're conjuring up your most traumatic or upsetting, emotional moments to be your enemy. And you always have to think about dead cats? No, no, no. And most scenes and most rules,

that's rare. You know, you know, I'm worried about you. You are miserable 95% of the time. But no, no, no, no, but you know, you have to get yourself in different kinds of really have to get yourself happy sometimes like in some of the ways. There was a scene where Susan and I are driving along. And it says, uh, Thomas starts laughing uncontrollably. And I was like, Oh, oh, how do you laugh? First of all, how do you make yourself? I don't know where she hasn't done something funny. I just start laughing. I have to control myself enough to laugh. First of all, how do you make yourself? I don't know where she hasn't done something funny. I just start laughing. Yeah, I have to control myself enough to laugh. Unintelible.

I have to be, I mean, and having real not that I'm, you're okay, you're okay. And so I'm like, oh, come on, I'm going to do that. And so this time I had a completely different idea. I decided I was gonna try getting drunk because you know, you're much more likely to laugh on control over you. Right? So I go to the props,

props guys will do anything you want. So I said, I need a little alcohol in my trailer. So they bring a six pack in a bottle while I get put in my refrigerator. And so I sneak back there and I like pound a couple of beers and do a shot of vodka. And nobody knows where I go out there and I get the car. And then I see Susan sitting next to me and she doesn't know when I'm going to tell her. That's what I did. And I start laughing at

control. And I'm like, oh, this is a great idea. So I was just able to take it after taking it. I laugh uncontrolled because I have the seat right now. That's right. And so, but I was like, that scene went great. And I said, no, I have to go lay down. That's what they did. You don't take it now.

It was done for the day after that, right? I couldn't work the rest of the day, but he was like, who cares? It's going to be fine, you know, whatever. I love this. Can we talk a little bit about film on Louise? Because for the rest of our lives, for the rest of our lives, yeah. So clearly, women have feelings about the movies. One of the things I think is so cool

is that in your filming of film on the Weas, you talk a lot about how Susan Sarandon kind of film on Louise deal. Like, help you learn how to stop dying for politeness. Can you talk about that a little bit? She's a Weaseman, real life. Yeah. I mean, she's the sort of dominant aspect of the friendship.

She's a more assertive person. And I had thought before either of us was cast that I could probably play Louise, so I could play either part. I'd be a good Louise also. And then the second I met, she was mad and I was like, oh, what was I thinking? Because she's so, I just can imagine. And I met a friend and I was like, what was I think?

Because she's so, I just can imagine, in person she's so poised and confident and knows what she thinks. And I was like, oh my God. And it's so strange to think about but I had never met or been in the presence or at least the extended presence of a woman who didn't start everything she says with, I don't know what you'll think. This is probably a stupid idea. So ignore me if it's no good. But could we possibly, you know, whatever. And I've never

said anything without putting, you know, a thousand qualifiers in front of it. And as she was profoundly not like that. The first day, I met her, we were going through the script with Ridley just to see if we had any little ideas or whatever. And on the first page, she said, you know what, I think we should just cut my first line. I don't need that. I was like, you're playing and Ridley just said, yeah, yeah, no, that's right. We were like, I was like, what am I witnessing? Yeah. You know, that she just said that. And that he just completely behaved like that was, you know, normal.

I just couldn't believe it. And it seems so silly, though, that I had such an extreme view of how much I could say in life that I had to be very, very careful to make sure that people liked me, that it would go away in an instant, if I said it or did something that people didn't like. So yeah, I took a bath and watching somebody move through the world in a very comfortable fashion, you know. It's amazing that what the movie did for us. Yes. Is it the same thing it was doing for you?

In real life. In real life. Yeah. It wasn't immediately embraced as much as it is now, right? Didn't it take some time like many movies, there are people that are tribalizers, did it take some time like many movies or people that are treblasers? Did it take some time for people to catch on to? No? It exploded. It was 31 years ago. It absolutely exploded. Which we didn't expect at all. No, I'm not making it. I thought, you know,

whoa, wait a little people get a load of this. We were just told anybody would go and see it. Because maybe they won't like that we drive off the cliff at the end. Oh, I gave the ending away. But, um, damn it. But we were like on the cover of Time Magazine pretty much instantly. And there were editorials everywhere up and down about how this is a great thing. And this is the worst thing that's ever happened. Of course. It's saying that women have to have guns and it's ruining everything,

it's ruining the world. So there were these extremes, but people were very, very opinionated about it. The sort of title on Time Magazine cover said why Thelma and Louise strikes a nerve. And that's how people perceived it, that it either struck a nerve in a good way for you or it was ruining society. Yeah. We were really feminist. It was a society once again. They strike again.

Once again. Yes. Yes. Which is actually what likely needs to happen. I keep thinking about it this week so much. I think one thing was to be able to see that yes, the world does feel that dangerous to women in a way that we're all gaslit into thinking like whether it's abuse, whether it's cat calling, whether it's not being believed, whether it's being

dismissed on the street with all the things that we got to see Thelma and Louise go through to see Thelma and Louise go through, were so validating because we were just supposed to live that privately without anybody calling it out. Yeah, right. Like you all did. Do you hear that often? Yes, I think that is what happened. I thought a lot about,

okay, this is a movie where the lead characters kill themselves at the very end. And women come out cheering. So how do you explain that? You know, what's it about? And then of course, have come to realize of it, plenty of time to think about it. That it's because we retain control of our lives, to the bitter end. We will not relinquish control. What any other ending, people are saying, I love that movie so much, but it didn't have

to end that way. Yes, it does. Because we couldn't give up control of our lives again. We'd be fenced or too, you know, to free, to ever do that again. So. It's the Alamo for women. Yeah, yeah.

It's the no surrender. Like we are not, yeah. And it's the ultimate bodily autonomy moment, right? It's like, it's like this empowering, beautiful, but horrific thing that in this world, the way it is, if a woman does want to have full control over her life and herself, she cannot exist here. Yeah.

Right? We get away. We get away. We fly away. It's a metaphor. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

So one of the things I think is so interesting is that one of the reactions to Thelma Louise was there's too many guns, there's too many, there's too much violence, these violent women, blah, blah, blah. And then there was a chart, of course, that you actually put in your book that showed what was the movie that was out then lethal weapon or something? Lithuropath. Right. It was an entertainment weekly. They evidently thought it was so funny that people were saying, this is the most violent movie.

It's so violent. And so they made a chart comparing like number of bullets fired, number of deaths, number of kickboxing fights, which lethal weapon did have. And we didn't for deaths, it was three, including the two lead characters, and included themselves. That lethal weapon was like, you know, 100, whatever, and the bullets, cell. And that leaks the web with ones like, you know, 100, whatever. And the bullets, I think it was like seven or something like that in in in some of the ways. And they said, well, it's about three or four hundred, but it's hard to count individual machine gun bullets. So this has to be an approximation. I thought that was a hilarious way to make the point that

what are you talking about? Yeah, and I wonder if that at all was planted a seed for your future work with the foundation, seeing that chart because years later, you're watching cartoons with your now 22-year-old daughter and you notice something. 20, 20. Oh, okay, 20. Oh, we have an almost 20-year-old too.

So you're watching cartoons with her. And so you notice something which kicks off your whole next feminist, thomas, we situation. So can you tell us what you were, what you noticed? Well, yes. So she was a little toddler. And I thought, Oh, this will be fun. We'll watch a preschool show for the first time. This will be great. And I have her on my lap and turn on. But I think it's going to be a great show. This will be great and I have her on my lap and turn on, but I think it's going to be a great show. And within five minutes, maybe 10, I'm thinking, how many female characters are there on this show?

And I'm googling it while she's watching. And there was one female character and lots of male characters. And I was like, wait a minute, I was shocked. And then we watched some videos, and we watched some animated movies, and things like that. And I saw it everywhere. It was in everything.

And I didn't attend, like, I'm not gonna make this my life's mission. I'm gonna, you know, take this to the Olympics, or something, but I couldn't find one other person who noticed what I noticed. Not my feminist friends, we have daughters, and then nobody in the industry, because I have meetings all the time. I'd always ask people, I've even noticed how two female characters are appear in what's made for kids. And they all say, no, no, no, no, that's not true anymore.

No, no, no, that's not true anymore. And a lot of times they would say there's been bell as proof that gender inequality. I had a Disney princess friend. That's the kind of, Disney's doing a great job, better than anybody else as far as that goes, especially in recent years. But who are the other female characters in that movie? And plus she has Stockholm syndrome on the space.

So now I thought, OK, nobody sees what I'm seeing. And therefore, it's completely unconscious. They do not know. In fact, they think quite the opposite of like, I'm not doing that. They think they are absolutely doing right by girls. And so I thought, all right, now I think, if I could get the data, I could

go directly to the creators, because I probably can get meetings with people and share it with them in a private way. I don't have to educate the public to convince them, you know, they're like a shaming version of it. I do this very positive version. I go there's the hey, you know, I'm your friend. I want to keep working with you, hire me please. And also, what do you think about this? Let me show you this data with you. And the first meeting we had was like every other meeting we've ever had, except for people that have heard it, what we do, which is their jaws are on the ground.

They had no idea. They were leaving out that many female characters that were so profoundly unequal. So I had to manage that it's unconscious. So data will help. The people making kids Entertainment's do it because they love kids and so this could very well have an impact and Turns out it did and the numbers have changed. So we're very excited about it And what you noticed was what we were seeing on screen was not even representative of the world. It's not like you were saying, put more girls in than boys because you were just saying, let it reflect the actual world. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And I

think about like you as a kid, feeling like I always think the best leadership or use of a life always is like, what did I need them when I was younger that I didn't have and then creating it? And it's so interesting when you think kids are watching TV and they're not seeing girls take up any space. The rooms, they're seeing the classrooms, the cartoons. They are literally seeing spaces where boys are taking up all the space and there's two little girls in the corner.

Don't you think that could be tied to all of us girls feeling like we can't even exist in rooms that just even our barely being there is taking up too much space because we're not reflected in these media spaces? Oh yeah, yeah. No, we we were trained to have unconscious bias, you know, women and men, we all have it. Now, we actually have changed the numbers. We've been on the great thing about what we're doing is you could measure whether it's working or not. And so we have now reached parity in the lead characters in kids TV and kids movies. We still have a little work to do on in the world and also other profoundly underrepresented segments of society, but we are, it is going in a right direction.

So that's very interesting. Congratulations on that. When you started this work, it was 11% and just last year, it's 50, 50 parodies. Gina, Gina Davis. Gina Davis. Gina Davis. China Davis. China. Can you tell us about this? Yes, I affect. Yes, yes. Yes. So we studied the occupations of female characters on television, on all television.

And there was one occupation that was, this is what, you know, closer to when we started, it was very well represented. I would never have to lobby people to add more female forensic scientists, because there were all those CSI shows and bones and all that stuff. It turned out in real life that women were studying forensic science in college to an extraordinary degree. Suddenly,

it went up to like 63% of people. They had to add courses in forensic science because it was such a kind of demand from women because they saw it on TV. Wait a minute, I can be a forensic scientist. How amazing. I am going to be that. So our motto is if she can see it, she can be a forensic scientist. How amazing I am going to be that. You know, so our motto is if she can see it, she can be it. So it actually works. It didn't you find that 58% of women who were currently in STEM studies at the time of your research, they named Dana Scully from X-Files, specifically as the reason that they were inspired to go into STEM.

That's right, that's right. I can't remember if it was 58% or 63%. But that's one character from one show. And 58% of the women in STEM And 58% of the women in STEM name that, I mean, imagine if there were more, we could change everything if we just showed that it made it normal, if we normalize that women and men, everybody can do whatever that is. And that's so important. I feel like that piece because you're saying, please let this pretend scenario that you're putting up on screen through TV intentionally reflect reality. You're not saying give us something we that isn't even true yet so we can aspire to it. You're saying you are actually working in a retroactive way on our society's progress,

because you're not even showing us as we currently exist in the world. Right, right. I mean, what we're asking for is, in that was profoundly not controversial. It's just simply, you know, reflect the world. The most shocking statistics are about occupations, because let's say for judges and lawyers in the real world it's

something like 25% are women and on screen it's in movies it's something like 15 to 1 and so however abysmal the numbers are in real life it's far worse in fiction where you make it up. It's anything you want, but they don't even reflect the sad reality. So it's kind of shocking. That's amazing. But then if they did want to be a little more hopeful that life would imitate art if we put progressive situations on the screen. You also proved with commander in chief when you put so much.

And by the way, I have been saying this fact in meetings for like five years. I've heard you say this a long time ago, but the show commander in chief, where you played a woman president. Tell us about the poll that was done between Democrats and Republicans after watching the show, just watching the show, the fake show about a woman president. Yeah, for one season, by the way. One season. A group called Kaplan Thaler did a survey and found that again something like 60% of

Democrats and Republicans said they were more likely to vote for a female candidate for president with a cousin watching that show. So if only I had had two terms. Exactly. to a certain extent. Exactly. My administration was so short. We're all changing, though. We're all changing. Exactly. We might not have to wait to put women presidents on TV

until we have a woman president. We might have to put women presidents on TV so we could have a woman president. Exactly. Bring my show back. Yes. Come on, come on, people. Actually, you know, I was thinking if I'm, I mean, I'm a good age still to be president.

I'm a perfect age. You're a good age for anything. That's right. So let's say, let's assume I didn't get elected. And time has gone by and I realize, I got to come back in. They need me. And then the show goes back on the air. Yes.

Let's go. No, we make that happen. Well, and tell. Speaking of characters on TV that allow you to become what you eventually will be, please tell Gina about your Dottie obsession. Well, you know, when a League of Their Own was released, I went and saw it. And it's been the kind of movie that I play over and over again.

And I never get sick of it. There's like five in my life. And I was just telling Amanda and Glenn and this before we got on. That movie had such an impact on my life because the way that Doddy was, Gina, you and I are both big tall women, right? And I totally relate to all of the stuff you were saying earlier. And I don't wanna be the singled out one in the class.

I kinda wanna fit in because I've always been, you know, the grass is always greener. So when I saw this, Dottie Henson, be not only badass, but also humble. Right. That, to me, I was so afraid of being big because of this idea that I'd be cocky seeming. And I was always one of the best ones on my team.

And so I just told them that I kind of dictated a lot of the leadership style that I had and much of what I saw Dottie bring to the Georgia peaches. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow.

Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. excited. I'm not gonna lie. I know I shouldn't have asked you if that was okay.

Of course I was kidding. It was such a lie. I mean, listen, to have played for so many years for our country, having you as this inspiration that always kind of lived inside of me, that to me is one of the most special things. Oh, thank you. Thank you. That's incredible.

And you're also a badass athlete of your own. Oh, no. Oh, well, well. Yes. Well. Because you know, the law to talk about. I mean, at what were you 38 when you started taking up our tree? No, 41. 41. Okay, this is, I was actually just said this before to Glen and I mean, at what were you 38 when you started taking up archery?

41 yet 41 okay, this is I was actually just said this before to gladden I said I wonder what Olympic sport I could try try out for now And she said none you can't Archery is profoundly Not age dependent. How fouling not okay, but any age can do it. And I took it up at 41. And my coach said right in the beginning that it could actually be an advantage to never have done it because most arches haven't shot, you know, their whole childhood. And when you learned bad habits, you didn't have the technique.

And you have to change that. So then when you're nervous, you might slip back into your old habits. And he said, but you're not gonna have any better habits to slip back into because he didn't never shoot before. Speaking of that coach and teaching you, you talk about a time where you were taking, is it called a shot? Taking a shot? What do you call it?

You're arching your backstage taking a shot. You're backstage taking a shot. And it wasn't a good one. And your coach said, what were you just thinking when you took that shot? And you realized for the first time that you were thinking terrible things about yourself. Like I suck. I'm horrible at this. And you only realized that that was like a constant loop in your head when he pointed that out. Was that true in other aspects of your life with that kind of negative self-talk? Was it specific to that or did that pervade everywhere?

Oh, no, it was running, well, I mean every, every, every minute was negative, negative, negative self-talk about everything, but I didn't really, I just kind of wasn't aware of it. And so once I became aware of it when I was shooting, then I'd go back to my normal life and realized, oh, I'm doing it. And this is the situation too. I'm doing it on the set. I was like, oh, people are going to find out. I'm a fake actress. I don't know what I'm doing there at all. I'm laughing. I mean, whatever it is. And so I started paying attention to that. And he probably helped me with this technique but if I heard myself say something like you're an embarrassment you suckered, you did something wrong, I'd say no,

I didn't do anything wrong, I'm doing the best I can, I'm doing the best I can. That was, you know what, that was fine, I'm just doing the best I can. And so a lot of that has gone away. Now, I love that. My therapist is teaching me those are just neuro pathways. You can change them if you just start with that. And then you say a new one, you're just digging a new tunnel for your brain to start. You'll just, it'll, your brain goes to the least resistant. So if you've been saying you suck, you suck, you suck your whole life, that's where it'll

go. But if you work hard to arrest it, say, no, doing my best eventually, you'll start going there. I also wanted to say for clarity, you were able to become the 13th best archer in our country trying to make an Olympic to you. I just want to be clear that. That's what positive self-touple do. When you won, you started a sport and became a top 13 sporter. Adopter 13 archer. That's just out of my mindset.

After two years, she's like, how about I'll try this? Well, maybe I'll make the lesson. Wasn't her second lesson where her first lesson where she turned to the teacher and said, what do I have to do to become an Olympian? No, no, I said, uh, how old is too old to go to the Olympian so much? I mean, he says, I asked it at the first lesson. I can't imagine that I really did. I must have waited till the second lesson. Yeah.

That's an outrageous question. And touched a bow. Meanwhile, I hadn't touched it yet. Let alone knew that I might be good at it. Oh my god. I have a daddy question. Can we go back to daddy for a second? I was rethinking about daddy when I was reading your book. And it's so she, obviously, everyone knows, she has this husband, she adores, she's the best ball player in the field. She becomes the face of the league. And she, it's just very good things happen to her seemingly easily.

And then you, Gina Davis, your first ever audition, lands you in a role in an Oscar-winning film. And then you, 41, damn near make the Olympic team. You are literally a genius. And I'm just wondering to the outside world, it might look like you like Doddy, to the outside world. It might look like you like Doddy. Make a lot of hard things look easy.

And I'm just wondering, what is hard for you? What has come hard and not come easy? Where is this struggle in a world full of kits? Want to know, Gina? Well, I'm struggling hard to figure out what that would be. So that's a struggle. I mean, so much. But actually, it's sort of the journey that I talk about in the book, which is I've narrowed down what my mission in life is, which is to close the gap between when something happens and when I react authentically after it.

Because there's such a huge, huge gap. Usually I think a few days later, I think of what I could have said. And then, but slowly and slowly until, you know, actually a certain percentage of time, now I will say the right thing at the right time. I was saying exactly. And that's the goal, I mean, but it's still very out of reach and so forth. It feels to me like one of the themes of this podcast

is always that we learn these rules when we're little, that keep us safe in our family. You learned, you don't say the thing. You are polite and you, even if you're going to die, you don't say the thing. And then as an adult in order to be free, we have to break those rules like specifically again and again. So what you're saying is your life goal is to break the rule you learned as a kid, which is to say the thing in the moment that you need to say to have integrity, to have your

insights match your outside. Yeah, you're right. You're right. I never thought about it that way, but that's exactly right. That's exactly right. Giving myself permission or finding a way to, I think it's better the way you should have break that and change that dynamic. Yeah, for sure. Because you said something about the spirit of the staircase. I love that. So I never heard of that before. Tell us what the spirit of the staircase is. Well, I only learned that phrase recently. Let's speak. I can't do a French accent, let's speak discolier, is literally having regret

on the staircase. So you've left the whatever it was party or whatever, and only when you're leaving do you realize what you could have said or should have said so yeah that's that's my spirit of the shower. That's you, that's my spirit of the shower. When I am in the shower, I am so freaking amazing, Gina. I say all the things I just, but it's only in retrospect. So this idea, we call it like smushing the gap between the knowing and the doing. Like when you're smushing like squishing the gap. Yeah, yeah. You said there was a moment and I just love this example so much.

There was a man who hugged you. And he said, yeah, great to fill up Gina Davis. Oh God. Oh, yeah, it was on this project that everybody hugged good morning. It was completely normal and it's hugging this person. And he said, my favorite part of the day when I get to fill up Gina Davis. And he wasn't feeling me.

We were just hugging. But I instantly said, oh favorite part of the day, when I get to feel up to do the days. And he wasn't feeling me. We were just hugging. But I instantly said, oops, that's inappropriate. And in a rather humorous way, but, you know, very specific. And he was horrified. Oh, my God, no, I don't know. I'm not talking about all. No, it wasn't. I'm a feminist.

No, no, no, I have so much respect. And I would never, I would never. And all day, he kept coming back to it about how I took it completely wrong and I was like, I was like, Tay, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's just, you know, effect. But that's the power of the unspoken thing. Everyone has agreed that no one's gonna speak it and your offense was saying the thing out loud that everybody knew it was wildly inappropriate. But if you don't say it, it's not real. Right, right, exactly.

And it's a moment that really stood out of my mind because it was one of the signal moments or one of the first moments where I literally said what I wanted to say right on top of when it happened. And I was like, I want to feel this. This is so awesome. Yeah. It is so awesome.

What does it feel like? I'm amazing. How does it feel in your body? It just feels. I was so happy and proud of myself. I was like, oh, man. Well, because I had achieved my goal. You know, and one instance at a time is what I'm trying to do. It seems like you guys know what I'm talking about.

It's so awful to only think later where you're going to to sit or die. You know. And it's usually, it's so awful too. Only think later, where you're gonna stop this is sad or done. And it's usually just you let yourself be uncomfortable so that somebody else could maintain some level of comfort that they never should have had in the first place. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, I think we have our next right thing, Pod Squadders. I think we're going to, well, let's see, this is how Gina says it, I've come to believe

that the whole point of my life is to close the gap between when something happens to me and when I react authentically to it. Right. So beautiful. And if that's too hard, we're just gonna stop telling ourselves we suck. And instead, we're gonna say,

nope, I'm doing my best. That's right. I'm doing my best. Yep. I love the ups strategy too. That's really disarming for someone like me who that feels very herculian to do what you're saying. Whoops, I can't. Like you can all agree, you just made a boo-boo.

Oops, oopsie, Daisy. That's inappropriate. Oopsie, Daisy. You're an asshole. That's inappropriate. That's really better for me,, Jay-Z, you're an asshole. You're an asshole. That's really better for me, right? Then mother fucker, back off.

I'm going to start with oops. It was sort of a fiction and a cheerful. You're a great mistake. Gina, if you do decide to run for actual president, we will be on your campaign. That's right. Okay? Awesome. We are grateful for you and who you are in the world and we're behind you.

Thank you for leading the way. Totally. Oh, God, oh, God, oh, God. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. That's very kind of a thing. Pat Squad, we will see you back here next time. Bye.

I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. I chased desire, I made sure I got once money And I continue to believe that I'm the one for me and because I'm mine I want the line because we're adventurers in heartbreak so now a final destination The nation, the flag, they've stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain

That our lives bring We can do a heartache I hid rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm finally fine. Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on matter A final destination will end We stopped asking directions So places they've never been

Come to beloved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things These bird ventures and heart breaks on land We might get lost, but we're only in that We've stopped asking directions

Some places may have never been And to be loved we need to be long We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. We can do hard things,

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