We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Glennon: You Can’t F With Art & Other Parenting Lessons

Episode Date: January 30, 2025

381. Glennon: You Can’t F With Art & Other Parenting Lessons In the midst of the LA Fires, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda take a moment to pause and reflect on a cozier time. In part two of this holiday discussion Glennon shares the life-changing lesson she got about love, control and parenthood and how that culminated in her gift from Abby. Amanda shares the unexpected way she learned more about her children this holiday season.  -Why there is a safety net for your kids—and why (Spoiler Alert) it’s not you -Why your kids may need a reminder of who you truly are—and that you’re okay -The vibe Glennon is bringing into 2025—and how you can embrace it, too -The surprising reason a road trip could be exactly what your family needs right now To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey Spotify, this is Javi. My biggest passion is music, and it's not just sounds and instruments. It's more than that to me. It's a world full of harmonies with chillers. From streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Welcome. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. How are we all doing today?

We're so good. We have decided, if you listened to last episode, you know that we have decided to, during this time that is so difficult for so many, in particular our situation is being an adjacent town to Los Angeles and dealing with all of the fear and beauty and loss of this time that we're gonna hold tight to each other and love and joy and we're gonna talk about our recent togetherness time as a family, which was the holidays. And if you haven't listened to the last episode,

you really might want to, because Abigail, Mary Abigail Wambach shared with us some absolutely beautiful heart opening, life shifting, paradigm blowing up stories. I'm fixed. She's fixed. Done. Yeah. Bad news, we're gonna have to end the podcast

because Abby's fixed, nothing else to talk about. I don't know, Glennon's still got some problems. So we might be good. All right, all right, all right. I really do feel like I give us a lot of job security. You are endless material. As my old therapist used to say, I just feel like there's a lot of fertile ground here. Yeah. So I just feel like I'm not sure we're gonna go fallow anytime soon. Yeah, yeah that's right. If you want

to hear the story that fixed Abby, it's in the last episode. Today we're gonna talk about, well first I want to tell you about the gift Abby gave me for Christmas, which the first thing that's interesting about it is we both kind of did the exact same thing without knowing, which is we had little pieces of jewelry made for each other with meaning inscribed in them, which was a cool coincidence. By the same jeweler. Yeah, by our friend Thea, it drew. This is not an ad. We just love her.

So Abby's piece of jewelry was about her brother, Peter, which you can hear in the last episode. But what I opened on Christmas morning, and what's cool about this is that Abby's jewelry had a meaning that was really based on the journey she's been on over the last two years, which was grief for loss of her brother and religious trauma, healing religious trauma, which you all beautiful listeners have walked her through and kind of listened to unfold. And my piece of jewelry was also kind of a summation of the journey I've been on the last two years, which I guess manifested as an anorexia diagnosis and then turned into a process during which I examined all of the programming that I had inside of me, like you did, Abby, and sort

of led me to let go of some ideas about control being a protection, which is kind of what I did in every arena in my life. Like if I just control my appetite, I'll be safe. If I just control my environment, I'll be safe. If I just control my environment, I'll be safe. If I just control the people around me, I'll be safe. If just this absolute death grip, a white knuckle grip that I had on every aspect of my life because I thought that that white knuckling

was what was keeping all the planets spinning. So, Abby and I had this moment a few months ago. And this moment came on the heels of years, the last two years of really heart wrenching discussions about new ways to live that weren't based on fear and control. And for me, I would say my final frontiers in terms of the death grip was food and my kids. Okay, like, fine, I will trust your idea that there is a center that will hold. I will trust your idea that I am not controlling at all. The center. Right, that I am not that center. I will trust that my anxiety isn't actually what's keeping everyone safe. In fact,

it's really upsetting everyone in every arena. But like when it comes to the kids, I am still the center. That's been hard for me to let go of. So we were in this deep conversation about one of our kids who is an artist and the decisions that they were making that felt so brave and so scary to me and feeling like I had to be somebody who held the line on the Plan B, not the abortion pill. I mean like, well, maybe that too. That too. I mean, we have plenty of that also, but I mean like... Right, right, exactly. Don't think I don't have a stockpile of that shit in my cabinet. Yes, we do too, but...

A net. A net, yeah. Who's thinking of the net for when this all collapses? Where are we going to go next? Right. And to my credit, I have not had any of these conversations in front of the child. That's amazing. These are conversations that Abby and I have,

and then figure out, like, how do we say it? And this particular conversation, I was trying to decide whether to step in and insist upon a plan B of some sort. And had I done that, I think we both knew that every parent's just trying to walk the balance of knowing that particular kid and what that will suggest into that kid's ecosystem.

This particular kid looks to us for a lot of, their eyes are wide when they look at us and it is clear that they are taking in what we believe about them. Yeah. That is the vibe. I know it in my gut. I don't know if it's right or wrong.

I don't know if it's because I've made myself too big of an entity. I have no idea. All I know is that is the truth right now. So I think that I knew in my gut that I had this voice saying, okay, so a responsible parent right now would say this, put this into play, make sure this other track is running. I also had this other side of myself that was like,

if I say that, this kid is going to translate it to mean I don't believe that they are worthy or capable of making the other track work. Right. Like, if I put this net beneath them while they trapeze in the air, I will feel better, but I think they might fall. Right. Like, I think the fact of me just putting that net under there won't get in their head enough to make them fall

when they wouldn't. But is that a control thing too? Like you still think? I don't know. Anyway, the point is all I'm saying is welcome to the my mind. Okay? Okay. Okay. I also want to say sometimes I feel like I joke about myself too much. Like, I actually believe that all the things I just said are real. It sounds like I'm double thinking and I'm double, I actually truly believe that I was right about that. That thought. No, I know. But isn't that interesting that you're like, I don't want to insert myself, but I feel like whether I do it or don't do it I can insert myself,

but I feel like whether I do it or don't do it, it's impacting the outcome. Like I'm not the center, but I am impacting what will actually happen if I give the safety net. I get what you're saying. What you're saying is if I suggest to them that I'm not confident in them,

do they lose confidence? And does that bump them off their track? Because if I... Now this is different. If you're a pod squatter and your child is five, this child is an adult, okay? A fresh adult, a baby adult, but an adult. My question to myself was, if I do something here, I am interjecting myself as the center that will hold. I am once again providing a net. The question is, is there already a net that is not me? And if I interject myself as net, is that once again saying to my children, I've got you, I've got you,

don't worry, I've got you, which feels like a correct vibe of parenting early. And there's this moment when the I've got you becomes poison because I've got you means you don't got you. I've got you means the universe doesn't got you. There's a vibe of I am here. The universe doesn't got you. There's a vibe of I am here. If out there you ever perceive that the center is not holding, come back. I'll be your temporary center anytime you need it. But I am not gonna follow you around

being the net that is artificial. I had this thought the other day. This is morose, but we've been through some death in our family recently. Our Aunt Peggy died and we, we'll talk about that in another episode. But I have been part of moments now where you're surrounding a bed and your person is dying.

And so I've had these visions recently of like, when my kids are surrounding my deathbed, I don't want their thought to be, she was the best mom in the world. She handled everything. She was our center. She was the one who looked out for us. It's time for a different vibe,

which is like, she taught us that we are our center. We've got us. That was her version of the last 20 years of mothering was passing on that center to each of them. So when all of this sounds over thought, it is, but it's whatever. That's my job. So. Yeah, but I just want to be clear. We have kids that have ranged, they're five years apart. And I think it's important to note that where each of them are in their lives is in vastly different areas.

They're like when you're 16 versus 18 versus 21, those are very different stages of life that require very different, and we're in the middle of all of it. So the youngest and the oldest, they're six years apart, five years apart. And the youngest, she's getting pretty baked, but we still have to be there with her

because she's baking herself. They're baking themselves. You know? The ingredients are still changing. Right, right. But it's hard to figure out the balance of when to do the shift because you do have to loosen your... And I actually just think that the net metaphor, I love it.

But I think that net is this fake belief that we need in order to be a parent. Yeah. Well, I am obsessed with the net. When you just said, is there a net that is not me? Because that to me is whoa. Because we think it's either me or no net. No, there is a net. We think if I don't show up, then oh my God, then that's actually endangering them because

then they're just going to hit the ground. But that is a story that we're the only net. Are we actually taking away from them the beautiful work of building their own net of their own people and figuring out what they're gonna do. Yes, we are. We're just like a section of the net. We're like a few of the strings woven in their net.

They are weaving it with their friends, with their sisters and brothers, with their other parents, with their other extended family. With their God if they have one. But I do think that this is a thing that mothers feel it's this idea and I don't know if this is a need for worthiness or this is my life's work idea but I do think that the net we need to consider what is the net is there in fact a net that you have been holding up underneath these

children forever? I don't know. Well, yeah. And it's like that bigger question that we talked about in the last episode. For me, if you're looking too close at parenting and you're like, do I do this or do I do this? What will make me a better mother? What will make them safer? What will make them better?

What would a good mother do? And then it's like, actually, if we take out all of those paradigms and words and you're thinking, I am a bit of a guide and in a split second, I'm going to be leaving this person. One thing is for sure that if the universe unfolds as it should and the parent goes first, which doesn't always happen, this person will be left without me. And so making myself their net is not the best play here. It's not the kindest, wisest, most generous thing I could do for this person. So how do I stand back enough, deal with my own anxiety,

my own mistaken beliefs about worthiness and importance in this person's life. And get rid of my ideas about what a good mom would do and say like, what would a wise guy do? What would a wise loving guy do so that I am not this person's only lifeline? do so that I am not this person's only lifeline. Because then what? Right? So then there's all that. And then there's the other part that you learn when you start doing the kind of particular work that I've been doing over the last two years about relinquishing control is that you realize how many times you have changed

the outcome of something that might have been more beautiful had you not interjected yourself in a particular way. And so that's what I mean in this particular situation where I thought, oh God, if I rush in and say anything here, I could change the ingredients of what needs to happen because what this kid is doing is really bold and brave and self-directed. And I think it took me, it took enough experiments, and I'm talking small experiments, like there's a family conversation going on and it's going away that I don't like how it's going. And I feel like this thing needs to be said. The narrative of this talk needs to get back on track and towards the value that I want everyone to take from this moment. What if I don't say anything? I have been doing these mini experiments.

What if I say nothing and just see what happens? And by God, if everyone doesn't get to the thing that I would have annoyingly interjected in a controlling way, but watching it unfold in these tiny ways makes me understand there is a net. There is a center, there is a beautiful unfolding that happens in the micro and possibly the macro. So we're having this conversation about what should we do, what should we not do. And Abby just looks at me and she goes,

you can't fuck with the art. And I said, what? She goes, you can't fuck with the art. And it was a moment like the one in the previous conversation where we were just staring at each other like, wait, that was something. That was something. Let's stop there. Let's hover on this. You can't fuck

with the art situation. Now what Abby meant, the first meaning was we have to let this artist do what she's going to do. Art is something that is, if it's in a kid, it's just got to play out. You cannot step in and say it's too unrealistic. It's too, you can't be the fearful world that you are fear that the child will experience. You can't become that for them. Let the whole world say no to them. Let the no not come from their home. Like let, there was that. You can't fuck with the art being literal. Like we have to let this artist go do their art. But for me, it was so much deeper.

It was about life. It was about like not interjecting myself, trusting that life is art and that there isn't some kind of artist that is not me all the time and that things are unfolding based on a system that I can't see and don't understand in a way that if I let go and just watch my family, watch a conversation, wide-eyed watch my career, watch my child step out and do their thing, that there is an art there that I get to see. It's a gift to me.

It's like, holy shit, it feels too good to be true. It's like a gift to me. It's like, holy shit, it feels too good to be true. It's like a gift to myself that I don't have to pretend anymore that everything depends on me. ["Savory Egg Pastry"] Say hello to Tim Selects, Tim's everyday value menu. Enjoy the new spinach and feta savory egg pastry or our roasted red pepper and Swiss pinwheel starting at only $2.99 plus tax.

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Follow and listen to The Moth on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Does it feel a little like a relief because the way that I think about it, it's like a parent going to a sports event or a soccer game and they've got to set up all the chairs just right. And they've got to put the umbrella up and they've got to have the little cooler of drinks and snacks and stuff rather than just getting to just sit on the grass and watch. Yes, that is it. It's like rather than rearranging stuff, you actually get to experience them. Yes. And it's not just watching.

You get to experience seeing how they move through the world in their weird ways. And P.S. some ways I would not move that way. No, I would not move that way. I would not move that way. But my analogy, I was thinking when you were like, don't fuck with the art, is that they're going to do their art no matter what, right? But the difference is like you handing them a coloring book and be like, make your beautiful art here. And it might be beautiful, but the confines have already been defined. There is a ceiling to what that's going to be.

And there's security in that because you're like, well, it's not going to be a disaster, but it's also not going to be of their own creation, right? Versus you hand them a canvas and it's like, that might not be the way I'd move. Like it might be terrible, but it's going to be theirs. Or it might be something that is so vastly different better that you never could have conceived of it when you were doing the lines of the coloring book so it's like it actually will be of them if it's of them exactly for better for worse exactly so on Christmas morning I gave Abby her St. Peter's medallion with the back said, relax, I'll handle it. Relax, I'll take care of it. And Abby laughed and handed me mine.

And she had had a beautiful signet ring made, the beautiful opal on the front and then engraved in the ring, it said. On opal on the front and then engraved in the ring it said... Onyx on the front. Okay. Right. Sorry. Onyx on the front. Just want to be clear. Yeah. And then it said, engraved in tiny little letters. You can barely see it. It just says, you can't fuck with the art. And that is my 2020 vibe vibes. And it's like, I know that it's correct for me

because it no longer feels punishing. It no longer feels like a correction. Like you can't fuck with the art. It's like, you can't fuck with the art. It's like a gift to me. Guess what I get to do since I can't fuck with the art is I get to make my own art. I get to just be art. It's like a gift to me. Guess what I get to do since I can't fuck with the art is I get to make my own art. I get to just be art. I get to not be God. Right. You can relax. Relax. Yeah. It's like two versions of the exact same message. It's like the tigs being like,

nothing matters. Oh my God, nothing matters. Or like, nothing matters. Hooray. Yeah. It's like the tigs being like, nothing matters. Oh my god, nothing matters. Or like, nothing matters. Hooray. It's like, you can't fuck with the art. Damn it. Or you can't fuck with the art. Try as you might. It's impossible. So just relax. Because it's their art. It's their art. If we took it literally, each kid has their own easel. And I'm behind them going, did you think about more red? Did you? What about green? I mean, listen, it's not easy getting you presents. And this was a big one because I had to like, there's no take backs. Yes. No take back. Engrave means that's yours for life.

My favorite, the only thing that is important about any gift that anyone gives me, my only request is that it's returnable. Returnable. Right? But I'm getting better about that too because this lack of control- Can't fuck with the art. This lack of control thing is blowing my mind

in every scenario because it's like, I just figured out my new approach to life as it pertains to gifts is a gift it turns out is not something that you want and need and makes perfect sense to you that the other person has deduced and so has matched something on the list that you have created of things you want and need and nails it that way. But the list is invisible. And didn't share with them.

The list that you did not share with them. Yeah, the list is invisible and in your head. True. True. That is because it would be a bridge too far. That is an important part of the model. Yeah. Yes.

The list is invisible. That is true. Not to me. That's a good point. Couldn't be more Not to me. That's a good point. Couldn't be more obvious to me. Okay, turns out that's not what a gift is. Okay? Now, the problem with that scenario is that when the thing that you receive that is clearly

not from the invisible list in your head, then it is incorrect. The gift is incorrect. Insulting even. Yes. Okay. No. A gift is something that the other person has felt would be beautiful and additive and lovely for you. It's not something that they tried to figure out necessarily from your head. It's something that came from their heart and head. So when you say, thank you so much, and then the following Tuesday you return it, that is a bit of a rejection of their heart offering. So anyway, it's just a journey. Are we sure?

No. No. I'm not sure. I still believe in returning, but I do think that there's space to consider this other way. You want to know a little bit of a hack that you can either share with your spouse or yourself. Okay. And sister I'm telling you this. A little bit of a hack prior to birthdays, gift giving moments, holidays, is have your person write out the things that they really loved about the prior year. So my mom every year asks us for a list of things that we are supposed

to write down and then she puts it on an ornament. So I have 25, 30 of these little ornaments with all of the things that happened that year that were important to me. That's so awesome. And so Glennon does it and our kids do it. And I now have just hacked Glennon's gift giving where I consult her list and I look at the things on her list as to what is the most important thing that happened to her that year. And so I had already gotten the ring going and I had the thought maybe this is gonna be it, but it was confirmed because she put C-F-T-A. Oh, I was like, I did not say fuck anonymous, did I?

No, you just wrote the letters. Okay, okay. What is that called? Initials. Initials. Acronym? Acronym, yeah. I don't know. Whatever. The first letter of can't fuck with the art. You are hilarious, Glenn. Youronym? Acronym? Yeah. I don't know.

Whatever. The first letter of Can't Fuck With The Art. You are hilarious, Glen. You really do it. Do what? You really think of the most important thing and send it to Nana from your ear. You're like, well, I can't fuck with art. It was a really important moment for me.

So it was. Oh my gosh. I would have been like spring break trip to the beach. There's all of that too. She usually does like two. Two real things. Yeah. Wow. And so that's when I was like,

it was confirmation and I emailed Thea and I was like, can't fuck with the art. Make it engraved and you can't take it back. And I also learned this, Glennon just likes jewelry. I do. I love, I just love jewelry. I just do.

I just love things that are sparkly. So I get a plethora of things. I get a few things that she can take back. One thing she cannot, the main present. And then I get a few things that are kind of joint presents that we will both use. That's how I cover my basis. But evidently she's worked on herself so that like gift giving is no longer an issue, but it's been. It has been. Yeah. Good job. Good job, honey.

Thank you, babe. Thank you. What about you, Sissy? What are you thinking about from this past holiday? From this holiday? Oh, it was such a great holiday. Well, we had a really nice long holiday. We were in your town for a week, staying at an Airbnb really close by. We were in your town for a week,

staying at an Airbnb really close by. And that was so great because we were, it was kind of the best of both worlds. We were able to be with y'all and with all the cousins and then have our little spot for breakfast and mornings and hanging out. So that was a delight and really, really had a great time there and it was lovely. And then what I'm thinking about with this holiday

was that we did something like very different, which is that after the actual holiday week, we got this idea, I don't know, it could have really broken bad, but John decided that we should take a road trip from your place up to San Francisco and stop at all these places along the way. And I was like, that sounds like something that a cool family would do. Like, so that's great. But then as it got closer, I'm like, I feel like we're not like a car trip family. I don't know what car trip families do. I feel like maybe they sing songs. This isn't going to go well. It's like a slippery slope to camping. I don't know what's happening here. So I was a

little bit nervous and it was so great. You know, our kids are 12 and 10. So there was a little bit nervous and it was so great. You know, our kids are 12 and 10. So, there was a healthy dose of the like, God help us whining and hating everything and nothing being good. There was that, but there was also, we spent a lot of time in the car seeing beautiful, beautiful California. It's like breaking my heart anew with all of what's happening because I had no idea how beautiful the entire coast of California is.

And I can see why people are so in love with it. But a lot of the things we did didn't cost any money. We would just drive and then walk on all of these lovely piers and watch surfer surfing. And then John had researched these places where we'd pull over and there would be like, this is a beach where there's supposed to be a lot of elephant seals. So of course, you know, getting out of the car there like it's freezing. We're going to be in a stupid beach. Stupid, freezing, we're gonna be in a stupid beach, stupid, you know. But then flash forward like three hours later, we are still standing there, transfixed by the elephant seals. We are laughing so hard because there's a whole, it's like desperate housewives of Elephant Seal Beach.

There's like fights going on, there are two babies being born. There's one mama seal who I'm very worried because she keeps going over and attacking the other moms with the new babies. We're very worried. We're rooting for people, not people, it turns out, elephant seals. And the best thing about them is they're gargantuan. They can be like 5,000 pounds and they rush at each other like they're're gonna storm another one, but they can only go like five paces at a time before they have to relax. So they like rowl up and they're huge.

And then they're like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And then they like lay down. And it's so weird because it's like, if your ass is there 90 minutes, so help you God, by the time I get to you. It's like a game of chess. They're trying to move out of each other's way. Anyway, it was a delight.

And what I realized is that the car is the best because you're stuck there. You're physically close. And I realized that in that period of time, that week that we were together in the car, was probably the equivalent of a cumulative two years of our regular life because it's always activity after school,

the weekends are divide and conquer, someone's taking somebody, someone's taking another person. We do dinners together, but that's 30 minutes of like something to do and hurry up and the dishes and going to bed. She said as if they don't go to bed like three hours after dinner, but you know what I mean. And the thing about the time is it was like this opportunity to just observe them and listen to them and then

like observe them out in the wild and just see what they're like. Because I think I don't get that experience very often. Like I don't get to see what they're like and what they're becoming. Like Alice was hilarious every other night she would come up with these like impromptu dances in the hotel that were so funny that I legitimately was like in pain because she was so funny. I did not know how funny she was. You know, you just don't, they're becoming something and you don't catch up to understanding who they are. And then we

were at New Year's, we had ordered in food for New Year's Eve. Bobby and I had gone down to the lobby to try to meet the guy because we wanted to save him the trip up to the hotel room. We missed him somehow and he was already like trying to navigate this bohemoth hotel and finding our room. He found our room and delivered it while we were still downstairs. And Bobby was like, man, this guy is out here working so hard so we can have like a relaxing celebration of a new year. And that's like, man. And he, so we saw the guy when he was leaving the hotel to go back to his car and he walked up to him and he pulled like 10 bucks out of his own wallet and was like, thank you so much man. And I was just like, you know what? The kids are all right. They're fine. That wasn't just like an example, but just seeing how they are in the world. And I think that

it's just giving me this kind of jolt of peace because I think that a lot of my anxiety throughout the year and kind of these like high highs and low lows is this idea of are they okay? Do they know what they need to know? Are they acting right? Is it going to be all right? Am I doing enough you know to show them how to grow into who they're gonna be. And I think that might be what a lot of our anxiety is coming from, like those of us who don't wanna make our kids into like superstars who just want to like make sure they're decent, good people who are being

who they should be in terms of like expressing who they are in the world. And just having that time to see them how they are was very calming. Cause it was like, I don't have to search for those crumbs of clues all day, every day, I can just be like, yeah, they are right. I really like them. I like these kids. They're great. They're funny as shit. They're interesting. They've got good hearts. And I don't have to ride the high high and the low low of the inevitable reports that will come unto me throughout

the year. I can just kind of coast the wave and be like, we're gonna be all right. We know what we know and things are good. That's so good. And so that was a real blessing of that time. You know, you don't realize that the time, the little pockets of time, you might be really hungry for that kind of knowledge about your kid and not even know it.

It really gives you a different idea of what those times are for. Cause we can be like, oh, what is a vacation for? It's for seeing cool things or this experience or that experience or this experience or that outward experience. But it's like actually just an opportunity to see each other. It doesn't really matter what you're doing.

It's like the seventh day, like every day you're creating these universes for your kids. And that time is the seventh day where you get to look at each other and say, oh, it's good. It's good. And how cool to think that the kids might be having that experience with you and John, that the whole rest of their lives, all our kids see us swirling and whirling and working and worrying and whatever. And what if they're in their little beds going,

oh, it's good to see mom's all right. Did you see her? She's funny. Did you see that dance she did? Did you see like how dad was like relaxing with mom? Did you see how, I'm glad I got to actually see them for who they are as people and not just their roles. They could be having the exact same experience with different language in their little heads, of course. Do you know that that is exactly, I hadn't thought of that,

but one of the kids buddies came over last week and was talking about vacation dad. I was like, it's really special when we go away because he makes dinner, he laughs, he jokes, and that is the only time that that happens. And think about, like, if you didn't have those couple weeks of the year, you would think my dad is someone who is so serious and so stressed and that is who he is. Not like that is who he is under pressure in a high-pressure position which he happens to be in for this decade. You would think that he's a monolith, right? So that's a challenge too, I'm sure, to parents to try to figure out how to show the other sides of them more often. But also for this kid to be like,

oh wait, there's a lot more to my person. And I can see that, I can glimpse that in these periods of time. I want to talk a little bit about the story you told about Bobby. I don't know about you guys, but for me, you could be a terrible student. And if you have that heart and mind where you're paying attention and then also deducing and figuring out, wait, today's New Year's Eve. I mean, he's 12.

That is so incredible to me that like, obviously people would think that sports are really important. Be a terrible athlete, but be that. That's something I wanna like see. And I just think that, God, that's so cool that you were able to create a space to do the door dash thing. Cause like, I also think it's important for kids

to like see that stuff. So often the food just shows up on the table. They don't understand. Like magic, no one's working for it. Exactly. Nobody like imagining in your life everyone else is sitting on a hotel bed having a nice meal tonight. No they're not. Yeah exactly so I need to like call Bobby out like good job man I'm gonna text him later. Not about this just like I think you're cool. He is so cool. Which one of our kids the other day

said the best thing about Christmas is the resurgence of the cousin group chat. Yeah. I mean, Bobby on the cousin group chat is just... He abuses the privilege. Oh, God. He's so happy to have access to big kids to tell things to. I'm like, the ratio of Bobby to cousin texts must be like 10 to 1. So good.

Bobby's the connector. It makes me sad that we all have these necessary selves that we only get to show each other our relaxed, joyful selves two weeks a year. It just sucks. I'm not saying that I know a better system, but it does make me think of the religion, like the Judaism that has the Sabbath. It would be beautiful family ritual to carve out, to not wait for one week a year where we get to be our real selves,

like to carve out times more frequently where we get to be our relaxed, connected selves. Let's do like one day a month. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, a lay in, a couch. And what's cool about it is Because it was in the doing nothing of the thing. Yeah, it's just hearing their reactions to things or I mean even just like Bobby's little thing under his breath and we go see something like

No, Bobby and Alice think that's that cool. That was so weird and I'm like, I think that was so weird too. Why did we even go there? It's just like discovering the things that you like connect with one kid or the other. We think of it as quote unquote doing nothing, but you're actually doing something. You're being like, what are you like now? Because when you think of the lives of people, six months is a long ass time of change and development and the way they are. It would be cool. Beautiful. It's also like a shout out to simpler vacations because you can really just recreate your

family trauma with a vacation. If it's all like, then we have to do this and then we have to do this and then we have to be there and then you're just like bringing your hustle self to the thing so like if this is your goal the seeing each other and the being in the moment then less might be more. Yeah I think that's right there's something about the movement too because even if you go somewhere and you unpack you're like well here we are I guess you'll sit in that room and I'll sit in this room there's something about the confined space of the car and the movement where you're like, we're all going a place together now.

Look at us go to a place and we're all within like a six square feet. You don't have time to settle into a system or the same ecosystem. You don't have enough time to do that. There's one ass hotel room. We are one group right now. Yep. And you're stuck in the car and you run out of things to think about. Oftentimes in your own city, you're thinking about your own stuff or whatever.

The phone gets tiring or whatever. And so you actually just start talking to each other. Yeah. And you're not in fight or flight with your parents because you're not staring at them. Dinner tables and couches, when you're making eye contact, all the kids just freeze, which is hilarious that we have all of our, like, family meetings in that structure because no one can talk. Yep.

We should sit in a circle facing out. You should get in the car. Get in the car. Sit in a circle facing out. Or on a couch just all looking, facing the TV. And then eventually you can turn the TV on. But like, no one has to look at each other and confront each other like an elephant seal.

Or a car. Exactly. Or like, we just do it through our dogs. Honey, do you think that Abby's upset? Like if you were, yeah, we just talked through all of our feelings. You feel unappreciated, honey, if no one ever. All right. I love you both. Love you too.

You can't fuck with the art, can you? No, you can't fuck with the art. Go on a road trip. I want to go on a road trip. That actually got me excited about a road trip. Take it easy. We love you. We can do hard things. See you soon.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things.

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