We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Glennon’s Friendship Contract with Alex Hedison

Episode Date: June 27, 2024

323. Glennon’s Friendship Contract with Alex Hedison Part two of our conversation artist, actor, photographer, filmmaker and bestie of Glennon and Abby, Alex Hedison! In this episode, Alex talks about what it means to stress a relationship, authentic friendship, and the importance of being authentic in every area of your life.  Check out our first episode with Alex HERE: [insert link here] Discover:  -Glennon and Alex’s friendship contract and the terms they agreed to; -How to make room for the awkward, twisty parts in friendship; and -Why we must not quietly quit people who are important to us. About Alex: Alex Hedison is an internationally acclaimed photographer, artist, director, and actor. Hedison has exhibited in galleries in the US and abroad. Her most recent solo exhibitions include the opening of FRIEZE Seoul 2023; Von Lintel Gallery, Los Angeles; H Gallery Paris; Photo London; and Paris Photo. Her acting career spans numerous television roles, including a pivotal character in the cultural phenomenon, The L Word. A critical voice in both the artistic and LGBTQ+ community, Hedison directed the short documentary film ALOK, a thought-provoking short film that explores compassion as a catalyst for social transformation and inspires viewers to embrace personal freedom beyond the binaries that divide us. Produced by Natalie Shirinian, Elizabeth Baudouin (pronounced Bode-win), Meggan Lennon, and executive produced by Jodie Foster, ALOK was selected to premiere at the 2024 Sundance Film Festival. IG: @alexhedisonstudio To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today is part two of our delicious soul-shifting conversation with one of the most important people in Abby and I's life, Alex Hedison. She's been a friend and a guide to us and she is going to become a friend and a guide to you. I can already tell. Welcome back Alex. I'm just so excited to be here. Okay so last time we ended the discussion talking about what a postmortem looks like after a social interaction. Babe, I know you had a question about that. So I have a question because I think that there's like a postmortem you do with friends. We all still do postmortems with every social interaction we have whether we are conscious of it or not.

What are the things that make you know that you were out of alignment? And I know the practice of doing it in real time is like probably ideal. What are the things that make you know that you were out of alignment? And I know the practice of doing it in real time is like probably ideal, but what are the ways in which you know you're not in alignment in order to post-mortem or go back or fix it? You're saying after the fact.

Or during, how do you know that you're out of alignment? I think that there's a journey of listening that is really necessary, listening and paying attention to ourselves, which for me has had to do with slowing down. I love nothing more than using my brain, then operating from the neck up, logic. And probably for the rest of my life, I will privilege logic over anything. It will take me the rest of my life to turn in the other direction and stop and breathe

and feel into something, sense something versus make sense of. and feel into something, sense something versus make sense of. So it's a habit that I'm really conscious of, of trying to slow down. What I notice when I'm going too fast, if we're all together as friends and I'm, and I'm talking like this and I'm talking like this and then I drop something or I trip over, I'm multitasking, I'm noticing it. Oh, shit. I'm doing that thing. Slow down. Breathe. What's happening? I'm really uncomfortable right now. I'm really nervous that this person is not getting what they need. Is there a way to talk about it gently. Is there space for it? Is there room for it here?

And sometimes there may not be, but if you're with good friends, most of the time there is, and we work together. So we're like this thing, we're all working together and we're all, we're all detached. If one person is detached, if one person's offline, kind of everyone gets offline. And you've seen it in groups, even in groups that are intentional, where everyone's talking about something that's spiritual, and nobody is making any sense. Like, what are people talking about right now? Why am I feeling so disconnected?

I'm terrible. This is a yoga retreat. I should be feeling connected because everyone here is so wise and spiritual, but I'm feeling totally disconnected. I guarantee you if in that moment you were to use the space to invite people to be more connected by allowing yourself to say, I don't know why, but I feel disconnected. I don't know why, but I feel uncomfortable. I don't know why I'm not connecting. I guarantee you just it's like the air, like people will start to come into their bodies and they'll make room for all the ways they feel disconnected. And you change the energy in the room. And you're not doing it to change the energy. You're doing it to, again, privilege yourself, to align with yourself, to listen in.

Something is off and I'm going to listen to you. Someone who's really, really helping me with that now, there's so many different people who I've worked with and talked to and been friends with. And I have an amazing friend, her name is Maury Fontanez, and she's a intuition coach, but she's really a guide. She's like a guide back to yourself. And she is constantly reminding me because there's so many times where I'm offline and I don't know how to find my way back. And she'll remind me, we'll do a session together. And, you know, again, my mind, I'm always suspect. I'm like, what is this? I know enough. Knowing enough means nothing. It's the willingness to

not know. It's the willingness to be humble. It's the willingness to be open, to do it differently. And the only time that I've been willing to do things differently is because I'm suffering so much. And I would go. Right? That's right. Sissy, what were you gonna say? When you're talking about the fast talking, mine feels like a fluttering.

It's like, I'm not there. I'm fluttering above this thing. I'm not connected. I feel awkward, but I'm still trying to say the things. And then after I'm like, what did I say? I don't even know what I said. That feeling. But can we go back to stressing relationships? Because that, I've never heard anyone say it that way. And if all of this feels a little like woo woo, and it feels like how could I possibly say to my friend or to my partner, this is how I'm feeling,

or is that what you meant? Or the only alternative to stressing a relationship by saying the thing is living in insecurity and anxiety. There's another alternative too. What? It's leaving. It's divesting silently from the relationship

until you are gone. Or actually, I'm gonna advocate for myself and I'm gonna leave this relationship myself and I'm going to leave this relationship. But I never really stressed it. I never really advocated for myself and tested the waters to see if there's room for me in this relationship. If there's room for both of us to come forward and do things differently. I never tested the waters and discovered whether or not

I could trust myself because I chose this person for some reason, and maybe they actually have the capacity to hold me in the way I need to be held. And maybe even more importantly, I have the capacity to hold myself in the way that I need to be held. So is that why this embodiment stressings, when we were talking about how does this work, friendship confuses me.

There's not rules. Where are the guidelines? How do we know if we're doing it right? Where's the paperwork? Oh, actually, Alex did give me paperwork. Where's the contract? How do we know if we're doing it right? Where's the paperwork? Oh, actually, Alex did give me paperwork. She gave me an award. I gave you a contract because you were asking for paperwork and I wanted to honor that. I don't remember what the paperwork said.

You are a good friend. And there was a gold star, like a seal. It was official decree. But you said to me one time, just don't leave without talking to me first. That was your thing. Just don't ghost. Don't disappear. And this is what you were saying. You were saying, don't decide this isn't for you without asking if you've communicated enough to even know that I know that. Right? Right. Yes. I think what I was saying to you was there is infinite room, there is infinite space for you in this relationship. And that includes stepping away from the relationship if you need to.

The one thing I ask is that you negotiate it. Meaning that you advocate for yourself and say, for whatever reason, this doesn't feel good for me anymore. Or my life is too busy and I don't have the space. Or I'm spending time doing something else. and say, for whatever reason, this doesn't feel good for me anymore. Or my life is too busy and I don't have the space or I'm spending time doing something else or whatever it is. It doesn't have to be because I don't like you anymore.

It can just be life has changed. But what I didn't want you to do was not bring yourself into the relationship and slowly divest until you disappeared. Or not stress the relationship by saying, I really have a hard time when you do this and then just leave. I was saying, don't just leave.

And believe me, I've not been perfect at this by far. There are friendships that I have had to step away from and I find it so painful. People I love deeply, it is not a full-bodied yes for me to be around them anymore. I don't feel comfortable in a way that I used to feel. Nothing wrong with them, nothing wrong with me.

It just doesn't feel, it's not a full-bodied yes. So I've had to step away and it's been really painful. It's hard. Do you tell them, what do you say? Give us an example. What do I say to step away? I think that the amount for me that I communicate is contingent on how intimate I feel with a person, how important the relationship is. If I'm at the grocery store and someone

does something to offend me, I'm not going to be stressing the relationship. Like I probably won't see them again, so I'll just deal with it. Unless they really cross a boundary and then I need to protect myself in some way. But with someone I've known for a long time, and this is true of the last couple years, there is a friend I have who I've known for years and years. And the truth is, as much as I love her,

as funny as she is, as much joy as I've had at times in the relationship, I've never felt fully comfortable. I've always felt like I had to protect myself a little bit because I didn't know what she would say next. I didn't know, I felt like there was like an acting out part of her that it was a patterning she had to do in order to feel safe in the world. I felt like she was always breaking things around her

in order to get connection. And I felt very protective. So I wasn't able to be my full self. I wasn't able to move easily. And I found over time and as I got older that I just, and my wife didn't feel comfortable with her, but it was more than that. I wasn't feeling comfortable, but I just wanted to deal with it. I wanted to endure. And as I've gotten older, I'm less willing to endure what is unacceptable. It's not acceptable to me.

It's fine for her. It might be fine for her other friends. It's not fine for me. And I'm not comfortable. So I started slowly stepping away. I would say things. I didn't feel like it was met with understanding. So I'd start stepping away, not calling as much, not responding as much.

And then when I'd get a pushback, like, where are you? Why haven't I heard from you? Which by the way, it's just not something I would ever, I would just never say to anyone, where are you? Why haven't I heard from you? It's like, anyone who knows me knows that I forget where my phone is. Terrible at texting back. I am not really and truly of the generation

of people who are always on a device. And I don't like it. I still wish they would go away, meaning the device. So even in the negotiating of it, it felt difficult to me. It felt like she wasn't listening, that she didn't have the capacity to hear me, to soften. So it really got to a point where she demanded an explanation and I gave it in the best way I could. It

wasn't satisfactory. People are not always going to get it. You have to risk them feeling alienated or angry. I had to tolerate her feelings. Yes. And her feelings are anger, confusion, betrayal. I have to allow that to be because I did my best. Yeah. And ultimately I wrote her an email really explaining it more in case she needed to review

because I'm not gonna go back and forth over and over. I had to just create the boundary and it's difficult. And I feel bad that she feels bad. I have to tolerate that. I've done everything I can do. I think what you're saying is really important because so often we honor and privilege other people's bad feelings over our well-being. And I think that that's, I mean I know that I'm having this conversation in my head right now about a friend and I think that that's, I mean, I know that I'm having this conversation in my head right now about a friend. And I think it's really important that we set those boundaries for ourselves. Because what happens otherwise, if you don't set the boundary, then you just loop over it over and over again in your head.

Yeah. And also, and where does that energy go? As Amanda said, you have two choices. You said the other choice, if you don't stress the relationship or you don't privilege yourself, you don't listen in, you have to suppress the feeling. So what happens when we say, stop it, shut up? You're not really feeling that way.

We start gaslighting ourselves. And that's where it's like, we start being out of alignment ourselves and it affects everything. Now I got to move really fast because I have feelings. I got to start moving fast. I got to start doing other things. And I don't trust that you're my friend anyway. Yeah. If I truly believe if I say this thing, it will not be met with understanding or it will never

change or you won't honor my feeling, then we're not friends anyway. Then I am not losing any heart to begin with. That's right. So I'm staying in this relationship to quote unquote, keep the relationship, but I actually don't have a relationship. That's right. Deep down, I believe that if I were to bring the stressor out, it would not be met with understanding.

Right. And what's worse is when you strengthen the ability to not listen to yourself, you do it in all areas. It's not just in that relationship. Yeah. Right. So I'm doing it with that person. I'm doing it with my partner. I'm doing it with my kids. I do it it with my partner. I'm doing it with my kids

I do it all the time and I don't even remember myself And I'm moving so fast and I'm so capable and I'm all I'm just from the neck up functioning doing Being a good soldier going going going It's cumulative and in the same way, when you start listening, at least this is my experience, when I start listening, when I'm able to say the thing out loud,

it has an exponential effect that the next time, it's way easier. And I do it again and I do it again, and I'm building up the other muscle of, what does it look like for me to be free? What does it look like for me to have really authentic relationships? This relationship I have with Abby and Glennon didn't come out of nowhere. I was ready for it. I was ready for it. After years of practice and being willing to have

kind of a blank slate, I'm not around a lot of people. I used to have a ton of friends. I was busy, not that busy now. And I'm so much more at peace. I mean, the two points of that, that I'm just going over in my head right now are like, okay, so if you lose someone or something by bringing yourself to it, that was not something you ever had in the first place.

It's okay, it's just a culling, right? And then the second part is, while we have to be okay being a bad guy in somebody else's mind, we must allow that. If we break up with somebody, whether it's a friendship or whatever, and it's not because you're wrong or I'm wrong, it's just, this is wrong for me.

We don't need to spend the next year controlling the narrative in that person's head that they were the wrong one and we were the right one. Restoring order that I am the good guy, I am the good guy. It is okay to be the bad guy in somebody else's mind and in fact sometimes we have to let them have that. Right? Like that is the way we separate sometimes. Right. But we work so hard to make sure that the narrative is controlled here and that I am justified in this leaving. But what if we didn't do that? Right. But I think that that's why what comes first is troubling yourself with yourself. So, learning how to listen in, because I don't actually suggest just going out and saying to that person,

this isn't working for me, because I could tell someone right now, oh, that relationship is not serving you. They could go deliver the message to the friend, and then they would not be able to hold it. They wouldn't be able to tolerate it because they haven't done the work. They haven't listened in long enough to have a landing space for themselves where they're able to return home over and over again and know themselves and know it's okay that the person's uncomfortable.

It's okay. I really did do my best because I know myself so well. So I think the work is starting to listen. Maybe it's journaling. Maybe it's having a friend or a sister who you can talk to and go, this relationship with this person doesn't feel good or this thing I'm doing doesn't feel good.

And you can trouble it with each other where there's a safe space where you start to listen to yourself differently. And then, then you go out into the world. Yes. So it's, I think it really, it does start with doing the inner work. I think that's what this podcast is.

I do. I think that every time we listen to this podcast, we're listening to people who are aligned. We're forming a habit. We're listening to conversations that feel courageous. We can do hard things. We can listen in. We can ask difficult questions. We can be curious. We can be uncomfortable. I've heard you so many times in this podcast, be uncomfortable in real time. Trouble things in real time.

So you're modeling something. So surround yourself, you know, to anyone who's listening, to surround yourself with people who, to anyone who's listening, to surround yourself with people who return you to you. Yes. And I think that that right there is one of the most important elements about having any of these difficult or troubling or these conversations with friends because so many times I haven't dealt with myself first. Right. And what happens is, is you go to a friend

and you file your grievance of some sort, but you haven't really gotten right with yourself around why you feel that way. So when you go and file the grievance, you then have feelings about their feelings. But if you actually can sit with yourself and sort out what it is you feel and what it is has brought you out of your own alignment.

If you have sorted that out and then you go and you have the conversation, then it really doesn't matter. Right, because you're able to tolerate your feelings and theirs. Yes. Yes. Yes. It really doesn't matter. Right, because you're able to tolerate your feelings and theirs. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. The part of this that I feel like we could talk about for seven more hours is the divesting piece that you brought up as the third option, where you could either bring it to the person, you can not bring it to the person and just feel anxious and insecure in the relationship, or you can slowly step back and get smaller and smaller

in the relationship and silently, what do they call it? Quiet quitting? Quiet quitting at work? It's your quiet quitting a relationship. And the thing about that, that resonates so deeply with me is that we think the brave thing sometimes

is having the courage to leave a relationship or having the courage to not engage with a relationship. But the braver thing, the thing that requires more of us, the thing that really makes us dig deep and be vulnerable is to actually know what we need, say what we need, and own it enough to say it to ourselves and then say it out loud before we decide that that other person can't give it to us. But because that's so fucking vulnerable to identify what you need

and then believe you deserve it enough to say it and then to risk them saying that they won't or can't give it to you, we would rather slowly and quietly walk away and say that person wasn't for me anyway because it requires more of us. I mean we were in marriage therapy recently and I'm saying all the things like, and then this and then this. And then our therapist said, I don't want to hear anymore about that. What do you want? You say what you want. And I realized that that identifying what I want and bringing it and saying this is what I need and want is 1000 times harder than just saying I don't want that thing.

Yes. Because it insinuates that if you say what you want, then you actually have to go about cultivating it on some level. Yes. Because it insinuates that if you say what you want, then you actually have to go about cultivating it on some level. You have to identify what it is. So much easier to say, no, not that, than to say, what do I actually want? What is a world that I can dream up and imagine for us and for me and then ask for it? That's why relationship work is so silly without personal work. Yeah.

Yes. And also, and also, I want to make space here for people who are so misaligned that they are in relationships where there are unequal power dynamics, where that turn into abuse of some kind, where like for me, use of alcohol felt like it was abusive to me. abusive to me. If I had waited for self-esteem or if I had waited for a healthy relationship with myself to stop drinking, it would not have happened. Sometimes it's the actual action of doing something that leads to right thinking versus I'm going to have right thinking that leads to right action. Right action can sometimes lead to right thinking. So in the case of abuse, and I'm not just saying physical abuse, it's emotional abuse. In the case, one must, if they can, leave, quit it, walk away, find a safe space,

and not wait for all of the healthy inner dialogue. That will come later. Yeah, that's right. Do you know what I mean? That's the only time where I feel like, yeah, just get out, break it, get out. Yeah. I was telling you this last night, Alex,

but I needed to leave a therapist or I wanted to leave a therapist. And so I was talking to another person, that my doctor actually at the time, and she was like, you have to tell the therapist. I'm not gonna tell the therapist. And I was like, well, I don't know, understand what I'm paying you for then.

Clearly you told me to go to this person. I've decided. Your referral was shitty. Yeah. Tell her. It's your fault. And she was like, okay, but this is part of your therapy And I was like, well isn't that fucking convenient? Wow

Everything's part of my therapy, right? But Wow was it so she was just saying to me exactly what you're saying to me. You are learning how to person Like you are learning how to have a need. Yay, you had a need, you need something else, awesome. But then there's this other part that you keep not doing, which is very the same as, you know I had a relapse over this last Christmas. It's like, I am learning in real time

that when I disappear without stressing a situation, when I go without negotiating a situation, whether that going is not calling someone back ever, quitting something, dissociating at a dinner table till I wake up in a bathroom, there is a moment of not stressing a relationship, whether it's myself, my family, a friend, that there is a fucking direct cost to.

What you are teaching me, what that doctor is teaching me is awesome. There she is. You have a need. You are upset. You have identified something that is not working for you. Step one. Now there's the step two.

What are you gonna do? Are you gonna just disappear? I did not know, Alex. I went into therapy like, well, I threw up again. This is indecipherable. I don't even wanna talk about it anymore. Nobody knows why. We've made the conditions. I am out of control completely.

And we sat for, you know, a month and walked back the moments. And there was a moment of disembodiment. There was a moment of disassociation where I was in a situation or in situations where I felt this is unacceptable. And I did not stress it. And I did not use my agency and I did not speak up. And I did not use my agency, and I did not speak up, and I didn't do anything because I thought I could endure. My plan is to endure.

Right. No, it never is. I don't endure. I throw up. Like, wow, it's directly related to what you're teaching me in friendship. There comes a moment where you either manifest yourself and your feelings on the outside, or you self-harm.

That's right. That's why I was saying the price is so great. You self-harm and you disappear. And then there's behavior that covers up the disappearing act. For me, it's moving really quickly. It's talking really fast. It's barking out orders. It's multitasking. And then that affects everyone around me. And then I wonder why my wife needs to protect herself and be in her own world because I'm creating so much chaos because I'm offline. It feels to me like all of this is connected

to your work in the world too, because you once sat with me at a table and said something like, if I don't find a way to put my full self into my art, I will die. Yeah. Okay, now if you're not a lesbian or if this is a normal conversation for us at a dinner table, if I do not find a way.

Queer people all around are like, oh, this conversation is so familiar. Yeah, to put more of myself, put my full self into my art, I will die. And you, there was no, that was Serious. Real serious. Earnest for sure.

Absolutely. There was no part of me that, actually I have never thought this once when I'm talking to you, but there was no part of me that, actually, I have never thought this once when I'm talking to you, but there was no part of me that thought, well, that sounds dramatic. It was real and is real. Can you talk to us about that,

how that's connected to this, to this time in your life? How are you doing that? What did you mean? Is your art different now? Is this tied to your new projects? Like, what do you mean? Okay. So I do many things, but the thing that I've done primarily,

the work I've done primarily is my artwork as a photographer, making that work, photographing that work somewhere in the world, showing it. And it's been a project of solitary nature. And I chose it for that reason. It does not require anyone else. No one else's input. I felt that I had complete agency over my work, over myself. And I've been doing it for a long time and I love it. I am very visual. I am a photographer.

I am an artist. And as I've been waking up, as I've come into my late 40s, early 50s, I've realized how much I've separated myself from the world. And that's where I talk about curated spaces where I was shocked to know that the conversation we're having in your living room is the same as something you'd have on the podcast that is not curated. That is messy.

That is real. That is true. And it scares me. It's connected. So I profess to want to have a deep experience of life. And yet I am so careful with my work and with myself that I have designed a profession where I do everything on my own and in a gallery space you'll see this work on the walls that has to do with something. It's like an idea of an idea of an idea of an idea and I'm quite far away from it. There's beauty in it and there's poetry in it and I's poetry in it. And I feel strongly about my work.

And I felt like I was not using a part of myself. I was not using majority of myself and I wasn't connecting with the world in the way that I want to. And you very much, both of you and Amanda have inspired me to connect more. You do so much, you reach out. You show yourselves. You are connected.

And I wanted to do it more. Filmmaking for me uses more of me. Being on this podcast right now is using more of me. It's vulnerable. I got nothing to sell. I'm not promoting anything. I'm just being with you. And I feel safe enough with you and with your community

to show myself. So I made this film with Alok because when I met Alok, I felt awakened in many, many ways. I felt like they were challenging me. They were inviting me. They were prov challenging me, they were inviting me, they were provoking me, they were exciting me. And I just started following them around. I didn't know like, okay, so this is the thing I'm doing. I didn't have an end goal. I didn't come with an assumption of what it would look like or what I would make or what their story was.

of what it would look like or what I would make or what their story was. I just started following them and it was an absolute love project. And that feels like the first step into this new chapter of using myself more and it was so hard. It was hard and it was glorious and it was connected. I worked with these incredible producers, Natalie Sherinian, Elizabeth Bodwin and Megan Lennon. So I was in community with people who were helping me and working with me. Great editors, DPs, sound people,

mixing people, colorists. It was so exciting to be in community. And then when we got into Sundance, it was so exciting. It was such an exciting, improbable thing. And then I was again, thrust into this community of storytellers, filmmakers, film lovers. And it's exciting and it's scary because I just want to do more. And what if it's bad? What if I, you know, I was nervous about being on this podcast.

It was like when we had dinner last night and Jodie was talking about something was so interesting. She's endlessly interesting to me. And I said to you, kind of in jest, but kind of not like if you want to interview her tomorrow, not me. I 100 percent. That was so funny, Alex. That was so funny, Alex. That was so funny and interesting. It's just showing we go up and down, you know, up and down.

You are endlessly interesting and brilliant to me. I'm stunned by, you know, we've known you for a couple of years now, over two years. And the work that you've done over the time that we've been friends it's amazing to me but I feel like it's important to note that you wanted to bring more of yourself into your art through this doc and you did that and look at what happened when you brought more of yourself into a piece of work. You will forever have the Sundance Film Festival logo forever on all of your professional shit.

Remember when they FaceTimed us from bed? We're always in bed, but all four of us so that's really convenient. It was probably 4pm. It's really convenient. It was probably 4pm. Well it's you know it's 5pm. Yeah. Yeah. Remember when they facetimed us and their little faces were there and they told us about Sundance? Yeah it's just like I'm not surprised. I mean I am not surprised. The more that you can keep bringing to the world the more the world will just keep replying like we love you Alex., your photography is so wildly beautiful. It's all over our house. It's our whole house.

I have one friend, all right? She's well represented. You chose the correct one. No matter how beautiful it is, the images, you yourself in real time blows any image of you out of the water. It's like you in real time. I just feel so lucky that I get to know you, you in our living room, in your living room. I mean Alex, the other day she's coming over for dinner and I said you can't come till six or something that's very late

for us because Emma has a soccer game and she's like, oh, I'm going to the soccer game. I sent her three texts about different ways she could get out of going to the soccer game. Cause if it were me, I'm the mother and I'm looking for ways to get out of this. There Alex is on the sideline and the girls. Well, eventually she had to text us back and- Tell me to stop. I really would love to be at Emma's game. And let me know if for some reason it would be better if I'm not. Yeah.

She was stressing the relationship. I was stressing the relationship by saying, I just want you to know that I'd like to go, but I'm open if it doesn't work for you. But please don't think for me. Yeah. That's good. I'm able to go, but I'm open if it doesn't work for you. But please don't think for me. Yeah, that's good. I'm able to take care of myself. I'm able to say no.

Oh, God, that's so nice. I'm able to say no. And I'd like to go and I'm fine if for some reason it doesn't work. I wanted to go to Emma's soccer game because how many soccer games of hers am I going to see? Time is going very quickly. How many times am I going to see her play soccer with her high school team? It went by so quickly with our boys. I mean, they played sports for about four seconds, by the way, but like even going to their plays or going to school, it's over. Those times are over. going to school, it's over. Those times are over.

Driving them to school, done. Yeah, that part, I'm happy about that being done. Okay. I didn't drive them to school, I drove them to the bus stop. I mean. Oh my gosh. Yes. We're going to come back and talk about grief.

I just have a knowing that the pod squad is going to demand that this is an ongoing series with Alex Edison for a very long time. I love being here. We might have to book you six more times. I love it. I love this. I just, I love being with you guys. I love it so much.

I loved when we had our shoot at your house. Oh my God. Where we can do hard things. Yeah. You guys, the cover art, when you click on the podcast to listen to this podcast, right now, that little picture that you see to click on this podcast was taken by Alex Hedison. And it was such a joyful experience.

It was so much fun. Yeah, it sure was. That was my first picture ever taken of me that I was like, I think that looks like me. Yes. I recognize myself. I can see myself. That was my hope is that you would look at it and say,

this is the most beautiful photograph of me and it looks exactly like me. That is how I felt. Didn't you go home and tell Jodi, I think I just took the first pictures of Blennen that exist. I said, I really think I took the best pictures of them ever. I was so happy.

They were so joyful and beautiful. So beautiful. Tell me before we end, isn't today the eighth anniversary of your mother's death? Yes, today. My mom died eight years ago. My brilliant, complicated, extraordinary mother, Bridget. Yeah, she had eight years ago. And then my father died three years after that. And three years before my mother died, she was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. And so there's a lot of caretaking and doctors

and sickness and dying for years with both of them. And then death and walking them through that, which was one of the most extraordinary experiences of my life. So hopefully we can talk about that sometime because it was... That time was especially with my mother, where we had had such a difficult relationship. the love was so concentrated. There was no space for anything else but truth and presence, realness and love. It was an amazing time those three years when she was diagnosed to when she died. I can't wait already to come back and talk about that. Before we leave, tell us one thing about you that is directly from Bridget.

The willingness to accept the complexities of life and truth, that things are not just one way. As soon as we concretize something and make it this thing that we can live with, it becomes a shadow of itself. It becomes an object that we can't actually interact with. It's not a living breathing thing. Because anything living or breathing is changing, is challenging us, is exciting us, is disappointing us, is leaving us in grief or heartbreak or madly in love and enthralled.

So she taught me to look for the truth and accept that that truth always changes over time as we change. Even the truth is embodied. The truth is embodied. It's breathing and our stories change over time as we change. Our relationships grow. They fall away. This time is precious. Damn people. We love you, Alex Hedison. Thanks for being our friend.

I love you so much. I love you, Alex. You're the best. Amanda. Thank you. I love you. I'm so happy to know you now. I'm honored to know you, Alex.

You're a wise bird. And you all bring me so much. I feel like one of the things I want to talk about is how much joy Abby brings me. How much joy and fun and play and excitement. I am 12 with Abby. And I mean, Abby got me into the cold plunge. I know.

Oh wait, can we end with that story please? Yes, yes. So Alex comes to our house to go in the cold plunge and do the stiff things, cause she wasn't feeling good. So Abby walks her through and it makes her feel better. So she comes over two days later when Abby goes upstairs to make dinner for us. And so I say, I'm going to help you with the cold plunge. It's in the garage. So I like walk out with Alex and I go, you just get in there, get in. And she's like, I don't

want to get in. It's so cold. I'm like, I know, I know. I'm so sorry. And she goes, you know what? I need Abby. This is not, this is not right. I was advocating for myself. Yeah. I was stressing our relationship and saying, look, I just, I'm gonna have to be honest, but I really trust Abby in this situation.

And I feel that if I'm gonna get into this cold plunge, she's gonna need to be here and not you. This is not working for me. You're good at many, many things, Glennon, but getting me into this cold plunge, she's going to need to be here and not you. This is not working for me. You're good at many, many things, Glennon. But getting me into the cold plunge is not one of them. But like, if you want to get out of doing something hard, I'm your girl. Yes.

I was ready for us to get the hell out of that garage together. Yes. You knew that's not what you wanted. So I went upstairs, got Abby. I said, I'll keep stirring this. You have to go like coach or something. Like I don't know what she needs, but it's not me. Yes. And Abby just stood there.

Her arms are folded and she's like, if you don't want to do it, you don't have to do it. I'm like, oh, God damn it. And I got in. You don't have to do it if you don't want to do it. But you're just a sucker if you don't. But by the way, that's just proof that it's all about how you say something.

Cause I was saying the same thing. I was saying, you don't have to do it if you don't want to do it. No, but your eyes and your heart say, let's not do it that. Your body, language, everything. I want to save you from this. And Abby's heart and eyes say,

I want to not save you from this because I want you to save yourself by getting your ass in that punch. Abby is a champion looking at me going, I mean, literally every accomplishment of her entire life was just staring at me. She was there in her Olympic uniform. Oh, it's all I could see with me going, we're not getting the cool pledge. I don't know. It's gonna be hard. I thought I can't. It might be chilly in there. But it might be cold. And the thing is, and I thought I can't, I cannot. And I said to her, I said, I can't not get

in. Yes. That's just no. You're such a good girl, babe. I mean, Alex, all that is really sweet. And you had to make the choice for yourself. And so sometimes there's these external elements that help us make those choices for ourselves or hurt us and not let us make those choices for ourselves. Like Glennon. That's me. And you know, getting into the cold plunge is the hardest thing I do every single day. Yeah.

The hardest physical thing I do every single day. You've helped me with many, many choices and many things that have brought so much joy. So much joy, Abby. I'm just so grateful for you. Yeah, I'm a joy junkie. Joy junkie over here. Me too, I feel so grateful. You're we can do hard things really.

I'm we can hardly do things. That's no, okay. I would say like the physical stuff, yeah. I can do hard things. And the emotional stuff, you're down that. I'm like on your coattails. Emotional cold plunges every damn day over here. That's right.

But I'm like, do we have to do things at all? Right. Yes. Yes, that's a good, that's a great question. All right, Pod Squad, don't worry. We will be back with Alex Hedison one day very soon and many other days. We love you. See you next time.

Love you so much. Go forth and stress your relationships. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things, first, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign

in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. You