We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Gov. Whitmer: How to Be Happy AND Win

Episode Date: August 22, 2024

Glennon, Abby and Amanda are joined by Michigan Governor, Gretchen Whitmer during this historic Democratic National Convention to discuss the plot to kill her; her best leadership lessons, why she’s “wompergasted” (and what that means); and the hope she holds for our country.  Discover:  -Why Governor Whitmer believes the American people are ready for a two women on the presidential ticket;  -Her top leadership tools and how you can use them in your own life; -How to be an activist as a sensitive person; and -How to stay positive and win. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, Pod Squad, we are very excited because we have with us right smack in the middle of an historic Democratic National Convention during which Vice President Kamala Harris will officially accept the nomination for President of the United States. Big Gretch. The badass governor of Michigan, Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Thank you for being here. We're going to introduce you, even though you need no introduction. Governor Gretchen Whitmer rose to national prominence during COVID for her leadership in saving lives and calling out Trump for having no

national response to the pandemic, which got under his skin and earned her the nickname That Woman from Michigan. Later that year, a domestic terrorist cell developed an elaborate plan to kidnap and kill her, a plot that was foiled by the FBI and state police. Governor Whitmer, who's the mother of two daughters, first ran for office at the age of 29 and has never lost an election. Rapper G. Mack Cash wrote a song about her called Big Gretch. True Gretch, which was an instant New York Times bestseller

and is an awesome read, is her first book. Welcome, Governor. Thank you for coming here. Thank you. I'm so glad to be with you all. So Governor Whitmer, you were a state senator in Michigan when the Michigan Senate was voting on a particularly callous anti-abortion bill. Can you tell us about what happened that day on that

floor on the day of the vote? Absolutely. So in 2013, December 11th to be exact, I can tell you that because it was my grandma, Nino, who I talk about in the book, it was her 100th birthday. And I started the day off by calling her and wishing her a happy birthday. And later that day in the legislature, I started the day off by calling her and wishing her a happy birthday. And later that day in the legislature, I was the Senate Democratic leader. And my predecessor, Rick Snyder, Republican governor in Michigan had vetoed legislation that would create yet another barrier for women to access abortion care, healthcare in Michigan. And the proponents of that bill went straight to the people.

And in Michigan, it's this weird thing under the law where you can collect a certain number of signatures and bypass the governor's veto altogether. It puts the issue in front of the legislature and a simple majority can change state law and there's nothing that a sitting governor can do about it. And so Right to Life, Fendt, a number of organizations

went out and collected signatures and brought this legislation straight to us, the legislature. And as I said, I was the minority leader. We had a caucus of 12 people and a body of 38. I was one of only four women. I often tell people at that point, there were more men named John in the Senate than women. There were five Johns, four women in the Senate. And it was very clear they weren't going to hold a single hearing to let women in Michigan weigh in, to let health care providers weigh in. They were just jamming this through. And this would have made it required for a woman and her family to pre-purchase an abortion

rider in the event that they needed abortion care. for a woman and her family to pre purchase an abortion rider in the event that they needed abortion care. So you had to pre plan for something that is an unplanned event and buy something that didn't even exist in the marketplace. So it was just a complete barrier to this kind of care. Even in the cases of rape, right? Even in the case of rape, incest,

even in the case of a desperately wanted pregnancy that didn't come to term for whatever reason and required it, what we call a DNC. And we can talk about all the different names we've given to abortion. We need to get comfortable using the word abortion in this country. But it would have created just yet another barrier, another hardship for women. And I talked to a friend of mine, he and his wife had gone through IVF a number of times. They desperately wanted to become parents. She had recently had a miscarriage, but it didn't complete at home. She had to go to the hospital to have the

abortion done. And it costs tens of thousands of dollars. It was a horrible situation for them. And had this law been in effect, their insurance would never have covered a dime of it. And so I asked him to tell his story because I thought maybe that story would resonate with the people on the other side of the aisle. People want kids and still needed this care. And he couldn't do it. It was too heavy, too hard, too recent. And I was walking back to my desk and I thought, how can I ask Jim to tell his story when I have a story? And I had never shared that I was sexually assaulted in college. I was raped as a freshman. I'd shared it only with a couple of partners over the course of my life. But I thought,

I got to tell my story and put a face to the women who are going to be impacted by this. And I got rid of my prepared remarks and ended up speaking off the cuff. I shared the worst moment of my life publicly for the first time. And it didn't change a single vote in the legislature. I had to call my dad on the way home to tell him that I'd been raped in college and this was going to be in the news. I was so depressed when I woke up the next day and yet by the time I got into the office, we'd heard from hundreds of people in Michigan and outside of Michigan. They were sending fax, right? I have to explain to kids what a fax is, but they were sending

emails and they were making phone calls and it was like that moment when I realized, okay, I making phone calls. And it was like that moment when I realized, okay, I lost, it was depressing, but yet look at this community that I am a part of, a public part of now. And I tell that story because 10 years later to the day, as governor, I signed the repeal of that legislation. And so that story is told in a chapter that we call Never Give Up. These fights are hard, they take longer than they should. It can be incredibly painful, but we can win these fights. They are worth having and worth waging

and worth staying committed to. So much of that story really got me. It reminded me, we interviewed Christine Blasey Ford and she too was saying how she gave her testimony and was so vulnerable and so brave and nothing changed. And it reminded me of maybe it didn't change with the people you were speaking to, but a whole other chorus of people heard you.

It meant everything to them. So it's like there's an other them that it activates. But can you tell us what the Republican senators said to you after you spoke? Because that's what I thought, wow, this is the crux of everything. Yeah, so I gave this gut-wrenching revelation in an effort to try to put a face to the people that were

going to be impacted by this new policy. And I lost. And as I was wrapping up thinking I got to call my dad and my I'm thinking about my little girls who are at home and they're going to hear maybe hear this and how do I talk to them about it. One of my colleagues from the other side of the aisle came up to me and he said, I think you're really brave. And my wife also was raped in college. And I, I wish I could vote with you on this, but I just can't because of politics, something to that effect. And I was, you know, I just was, you know, womper gassed, you know, it was like, you're confessing this to me and you're telling me you believe I made the right vote.

And even though your wife had a similar circumstance, you still don't have You're confessing this to me and you're telling me you believe I made the right vote. And even though your wife had a similar circumstance, you still don't have the backbone to cast this vote. It was really stunning, maddening. Yeah, it's so depressing as a voter to just hear so many stories about you kind of vote people in to vote their conscience and to just see repeatedly that that's not what happens. Also just one final follow-up question. Did you just say wompergasted? I really wanted to follow up. Is that a

Michigander term? I don't know. One of my girlfriends says it and I think it's hilarious. So I just my new favorite word. I was looking for a word and it felt right. It is right and I think it's hilarious. So I just, I'm looking for a word and it felt right. It is, it is right. I think Whitmer, Wompergasted Whitmer. I don't know. We can play with it. We can have a lot of fun with it. I believe in the happy warrior, you know,

like the happy warrior is always a mindset. I'm trying to cultivate and encourage. And so yes, if you can laugh while you're putting up a fight, I think that's, that's really helpful. And womper gas, I think, is a part of that. The happy warrior thing is so, I mean, the last month, the energy and joy. Can you speak to the happy warrior?

Because I feel like the whole how Trump was trying to kind of make fun of the vice president because of her laugh, because of her joy, as if that was a diminishing factor. And the country right now is so magnetized to it. That's what we've been waiting for. What do you think that is about the happy warrior? Well, you know, I think we all are exhausted, right? We're exhausted from so many stressors, from a pandemic, from the political rhetoric, from the threats that Americans make against

one another, to gun violence. I mean, to the rolling back of rights that we thought were enshrined in law, right? For 50 years, we've had rights and now it's, they're gone for a lot of American women and are thinking about our kids, we're exhausted. And so the meanness of campaigns is, it just doesn't have appeal, we need joy and to see, you know, Kamala Harris and Tim Walls, I don't think she could have made a better choice. I was thrilled that she picked Tim, she had a lot of great choices, like Josh Shapiro. I'm friends with all of them. I love them all. But Tim is the kind of guy who will always find, you know, the something that is humorous and will

infuse joy. And that's exactly what Kamala Harris has been doing. And I think it's speaking to people because yeah, these are serious issues. We need serious people who can solve problems, but we also need to know, like, there's light. We can find goodness in every single day, and that's exactly what they're doing, and I think it's resonating with people because we need that. It's important. And we all choose what we consume every day, right? Like the kind of media, the kind of rhetoric, the kind of information we consume every day. We also choose what we put out in the world every single day. And we have a choice to make. And I think the choice Americans are telling us is they want hope. They want happy. They want problem solved.

They want serious people, but who also are humans and can have some fun, too. Yeah, I know. We are also huge Coach Walls fans over here. We love him as VP forever. So happy. And yet I feel like, and I know you're doing exactly the job you want to do, exactly where you want to be. You're not interested in that.

Okay. All of this is true. It feels like the elephant in the room though is that you obviously are right there with walls in everything that you are, everything that you do. And it seemed like, well, obviously we can't have Governor Whitmer because that would be two women. And that's so extreme. That's a bridge too far. That's nuts. Whereas we've had 230 years of two men, which has never been seen as extreme in any event. I'm not asking about the process. I'm asking like, what do you think of that? Which is like, would love it, but not possible. I think that's going to change. Well, I do think America's ready for two women at the top of the ticket. I, you know, I'm not not

on the ticket because I don't believe we're ready for two women. I absolutely do. I've made a commitment to Michigan and everyone knows that I'm serious when I say that. All of that being said, you know, every woman who's in an executive office in Michigan, right? There's three of us. So we hold the top three offices,

governor, secretary of state, attorney general. It's a holy trinity over there. Every single one of us was told, oh, we can't have too many women on the ticket. Every one of us was told that. And yet we all ignored it. We all ran. We all got elected and we all got reelected. People absolutely are ready for women to lead. They see women leading, whether it's in sports, it's in the private sector, it's in the public sector. And I think it would be really exciting. So I always, you know, I write that off. That's baloney. If it can happen in Michigan, it could happen anywhere. We are the microcosm of the country. And I think that's why everyone's looking at us to say what's going to happen in this next election or any election for that matter. Because Michigan is that most diverse

swing state. We've shown here, it can be done. Not only can it be done, but I won by almost 11 next election or any election for that matter, because Michigan is that most diverse swing state. We've shown here it can be done. Not only can it be done, but I won by almost 11 points in my reelection in a state like this. That's pretty unheard of. Yeah, you did. Can you please walk us through the day that a group of people were planning and very close to executing a plot to kidnap and assassinate you. Can you take us through that? Yeah, absolutely. So, you might recall that Michigan was kind of the canary in the coal mine. Some of the first protests were at the Michigan Capitol.

And I'll tell you, everything changed when Trump started targeting me and singling me out and talking about Michigan specifically. We could see in our social media and in everything that the police are watching an uptick every time he even mentioned me or the state of Michigan for that matter. So as soon as he turned on me, when I said there's no national strategy on national television trying to get swabs and PPE for our doctors and nurses, he turned on me and my Republican legislature

turned on me too at that point. So they started suing me. There began the 28 recall attempts against me in my first term. There were so many threats that had begun. And they had this project gridlock where they clogged up all the streets around the Capitol. And I was down there.

And in the book, you can see there's a picture of a sign that I took from my window in my office that said, half wit, which is another one of the insults that Trump threw my way, is the reason we have the second amendment. And my blood ran cold that day because there were swastikas, there were Confederate flags. I mean, look at a map. Michigan is, you know, we're practically Canada. We're so far away from the South. It was, we were a Union state. So it was really jarring to see this likeness of me hanging from a noose. I mean, this was early on.

And then there was an armed protest at our Capitol shortly after that, much like January 6th. And so this kind of militia in Michigan, these folks that were domestic terrorists were listening to Trump and were inspired by his words and started plotting this kidnapping attempt. There were 12 to 14 men who spent months training in the woods practicing on what they called a kill house, staking out my property up north to grab me. There were all sorts of text messages about how they were going to kill me, put me on a sham trial

and execute me, you know, in live television. I mean, this was real. And I was made aware of it in summer, the summer of 2020, when my detail, my state state police detail let me know that this was happening and that one guy who was a part of it had turned to become an FBI informant because he was shaken by how serious it had gotten and wanted to make sure it didn't happen. So I always knew that it was going on for a couple months before it became public. My family didn't, I had to tell them as it became clear, charges were being brought and arrests were being made. And my kids were teenagers at the time and I'm a stoic person, I'm slow to boil,

I've got a long fuse. They're kind of cut from the same cloth. My husband on the other hand, a little more emotional, but I shared with them that this was happening, we're safe, we don't have to worry about it. But as the details became more and more public and as the trials were playing out, I couldn't help but learn more about what it was, even though I wasn't consuming it purposefully. And it was really harrowing to think that this plot where so many people were involved and where they'd taken such,

gone to such great lengths to do this, was being covered as a kidnapping plot where so many people were involved and where they'd taken such gone to such great lengths to do this was being covered as a kidnapping plot where in juxtaposed to, you know, one person showing up on Brett Kavanaugh's lawn and getting caught before any real danger was was a foot was viewed as an assassination attempt. And I point that out not to fault the media, but to recognize, like, we've got to be conscious about how we cover things against women versus things against men.

And that's my purpose for pointing that out. Both were very serious. Neither is acceptable. But man, the way that they were covered was incredibly different. What is that about? Gender? You know, I mean, is kidnapping a more, you know, does that get people's attention more than assassination?

I don't know. But it was striking at how much more in depth, how many more people were involved, how much work had gone into, you know, what happened here in Michigan versus what played out on Brett Kavanaugh's lawn and yet how different they were described. It's also like the word kidnapping

implies someone who is powerless. And the word assassination implies someone who is important. And so it would make a lot of sense that you would, if you wanted to diminish your power, you would call it kidnapping. And if you want to accentuate Kavanaugh's power, you would call it assassination.

I had not thought about that, but you're absolutely right. Yeah. You're like a pawn in a power play as opposed to a power player. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. That's an interesting, yeah. That makes sense to me.

Can you tell us, I have not delved into this too much because I'm trying to control the things I can control during these next couple of months, but I keep hearing people talk to me about how they believe that Trump has placed so many election deniers in high places that we should be terrified that even after we win the election, it's going to get so ugly

and maybe they'll cheat. Can you just, is it possible for you to explain that like it's to dummies? What is everyone afraid of? And can you make us less afraid of it? I'll try on both fronts. Thank you. First, in 2020, we saw this really comprehensive effort

across the swing states to undermine our confidence in elections. We saw them infiltrate polling places to make threats to, I think, undermine our ability to conduct the election. And once the election was conducted, and they saw the results, that's, you know, when they started plotting about how do we put this fake electors slate of electors into these states, Michigan, North Carolina,

Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania were square in it, because each of us had a democratic governor, and a Republican legislature. And so the thought was with these Republican legislatures to send alternative slates of electors to send their results to Washington, DC, and that's how they were going to steal the election. Fortunately, there were a lot of people running their mouths about it. And so we knew this was a foot and we did a lot of groundwork leading up to the election to make sure that

it was easy for people to get their votes in, but also to ensure that we had all of the legal safeguards to protect that vote, regardless of what the outcome was. So Roy Cooper in North Carolina, Tom Wolf in Pennsylvania, Tony Evers and I, and all of our teams and secretaries of state and attorneys general were working very closely together. Since then, I can tell you in Michigan, we've expanded voting rights.

We've heightened the criminal penalties for people that make threats against those who work the polls or who try to interfere. And so we've done a lot of different pieces to it. We're still, I think, need to be very vigilant to ensure that people can exercise their franchise and in Michigan You can do it a lot earlier now than you could in 2020 and that's one of those safeguards But we're gonna continue to work very closely with Tony Evers and Josh Shapiro now in Pennsylvania and Roy Cooper in North Carolina as well as Katie Hobbs and Arizona as I think about this upcoming election we are so lucky to have these governors because

we are going to be the ones that are overseeing and running our states going into this critical election. Had our opponents like Kerry Lake been the governor in Arizona, or the guy who was running against Shapiro in Pennsylvania or here in Michigan, Tudor Dixon, if any of these people had been governors right now, I'd be a lot more nervous. All that being said, we got to be vigilant. It's going to take an army of lawyers and the Trump campaign is lawyering up. They're hiring more lawyers than volunteers. And I think that tells you a lot about what their strategy is. And that's why we can't let our guard down for a second. They're hiring, the Republicans are hiring more lawyers

than they are recruiting volunteers? That's what's been reported. I've seen it in a number of publications where that's where they're spending a lot of their funds. Yeah. And so the idea of that is that the Trump campaign, they want to sue the results to try to overturn the election in that way?

Yeah, and that's part of the why, you know, Abby, when President Biden decided not to run, and there was, you know, 24 hours where people were playing fantasy football and erasing the board and throwing random names on the board, one of the things I kept reminding people is listen, we've got the laws of 50 states to navigate. There's one candidate who we know can be our candidate in all 50 states. It's Kamala Harris. So we've got to get, you know, unified around Kamala Harris right now, because I don't trust, you know, challenges in all these states that go to the United States Supreme Court to yield a just result anymore. I hate to say that as a lawyer. I was raised and educated to revere the courts. And yet even I am very dubious of whether or not we would get a just result.

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What's going to happen with the Supreme Court? What are we going to do? Like what is this? Now that you're fixing everything for us, could you do that real quick? Could you just do Supreme Court hope for dummies real quick? Yeah, you know, I'm not an expert on this report. I am a lawyer, but I'm smart enough to know where my expertise ends. I would say this, that the most important thing we can do right now is to make sure that we don't have a second Trump term. Make sure that we elect Kamala Harris and Tim Walz to the most powerful positions in the country. That any appointments that

come up will be made by people who respect the Constitution and will put people of integrity on the court. Also giving them a lot of friends in Congress. That's a part of our work. We have an open US Senate seat here in Michigan. I'm working hard to help Alyssa Slotkin, but I think that these are, go hand in hand as we think about long-term. We know they've already teed up reproductive rights and said different ways that they could be challenged. They've signaled that we know where they want to head. And so I'm focused on the next 90 some days, but I think then we we've got to have what's the next part of the strategy. And I've got great confidence in Kamala Harris. A big part of your book is all of these magical tools

that you have acquired throughout your career. And one of them is being a real listener, like just listening to learn instead of to respond. And I'm wondering, you have two daughters that are amazing in their own right. And I'm wondering if you could give us an example of something, a decision that you made professionally in your career that was a response to listening to your girls. Oh, listening to my girls. Well, you know, I learned a lot from my children. They're 22 and 20. They are, they are bad-ass young women and they don't have a lot of the same

hangups that people in my generation do. Thankfully, like that's a good thing. Yes. I'm definitely able to show up as I am in a way that my predecessors couldn't. And I hope that my kids and their generation can take that the next step. My oldest daughter is a gay woman. And you know, we did an interview with a big national publication, and we were talking about the upcoming election, my re-election, and my daughter had decided to share that she was gay when we were talking about everything from women's reproductive rights to everything else under the sun.

And I didn't ask her to. I always invite my kids to participate in all my things, but I never asked them to, or certainly would never pressure them to, but she wanted to, she was ready, she was in that, you know, space. And I signed as governor, one of my happiest days, right, was of course repealing that abortion law,

but another was expanding LGBTQ plus civil rights in Michigan. We finally got Michigan on the right side of history. I signed that bill with my daughter by my side in the first hundred days of this term. And it was like one of my favorite moments. And it went, in going into it, you'll crack up at this though. In going into it, I was texting with her.

Now she was at the University of Michigan and I was texting with her. I said, do you want to come? And she said, yes. And I said, do you want to be a part of it? She said, yes. I said, how do you want me to refer to you when I'm doing interviews?

Do you want me to refer to you as like, you know, a member of the LGBTQ community? And she's sent, texted me back and she's like, LOL, come on Gretchen. I'm like, when she says Gretchen, like I know I've done something wrong. She's like, what, what, what? And she goes, I'm a gay woman or lesbian Gretchen, like, I know, I've done something wrong. Yeah. What, what, what? And she goes, I'm a gay woman or lesbian, whatever one goes to. And I'm like, okay, okay. I said,

thank you, gay woman. And she's asking me that you're welcome non-community member. They keep me humble. They keep me current. And they, they me, whether it's abortion rights, because I want my kids to think about Michigan as a place they might build a life and having those protections and under the law, whether it's you're deciding your own healthcare or being able to love who you love and show up as you are, that's really important to me as a mom,

but I think to a generation of Americans who, that's the floor. Yeah, God, that's beautiful. We have that situation because we have a 22 year old who's a serious activist and wow, like it is, you gotta be careful who you raise, man. Because they come at you, like nobody pushes us harder

than the people inside of our home. No question. That's why talking to young people, even if they're not old enough to vote, is really important. And to your initial question, listening, right? I mean, I learn more by asking people, what can I do that'll make your life better? And they're not shy, but they're very unused to being asked. They're used to people talking at them and not being able to, you know, have input, real input. What are some other magical tools that you feel like really, because you're an exceptional

leader, like how, what are they? Just help us understand what would be a top three. Surround yourself with great people. In the book, I talk a little bit about how three weeks into the term, we had a polar vortex in Michigan. And it was the convergence of a number of different systems and the wind chill plummeted to negative 55 degrees. It was like, this was three weeks in, by the way. And we had to, you know, set up shop at our state emergency operations center, got a call from one of our big utilities that they had a fire at one of their power stations

and we might lose power for a million people overnight. Oh no. Negative 55 degrees, right? One child, and so we were all there trying to figure out what could we do? You know, I can't fix the power station. They're working overtime to do it. And Consumers Energy had asked all their business customers to shut down and to turn their thermostats down as low as they could to, you know, stop works and everyone home. And I thought, you know,

someone on my team said, what if we ask everyone to turn down their thermostats, like all the homeowners too? And it was 10 o'clock at night. We did a press conference. I asked people to do that. But then someone on the team said, we have an emergency alert system. What if we use it?

And we ping everyone's phone. We interrupt everyone's television show. Like we wake them up because at 10 o'clock, odds are a lot of people aren't going to see that press conference. And so that's what we did. Most people took a little self sacrifice and, and did it. And we got through the night without losing power and consumers energy got their power station back online and we made it through. And I really thought, okay, my one crisis I'm gonna have to deal with is over.

Obviously, pandemics and plots and everything else happened. But I think the lesson in that was, I was surrounded by great people. When you have diversity of experience and, you know, lived experience, but also educational experience, geographical, racial, religious, all those things, if they're empowered, can make you a better organization. And I think that's one of the most important things. I've got a phenomenal team on my political side and

on my critical government side. Can I ask you about that moment? Because you were just saying it was preparing you for the next crisis. And that part of your book was so impactful for me because you described this table and everyone's like, OK, we could rolling turn off the power and then or we could do this thing or bring in these people. And then someone just says, how about we just ask people to sacrifice a little bit? And then someone just says, how about we just ask people to sacrifice a little bit? How about we just ask them to help us? And it made me so sad because I thought

about the whole COVID crisis and how under the right leadership of the country, that was appealing to the best parts of us, the parts of us that want to come together for our community, that COVID could have actually brought us together, instead of the leadership that was appealing to the absolute worst parts of us. What else out there right now is a power grid? Like, what other problems are we dealing with right now

that we could just be appealing to the best of us and bringing us together? Oh, that's a great question. I think there's so much that is there. I was raised in a household. My dad was a Republican, and I put it in quotes now because he hasn't been for quite a while because the party's just become something

he doesn't even recognize. My mother was a Democrat, and she actually was more conservative than my dad in some things, which is just kind of funny to think of where the parties are now. And in the household in which I was raised, if we stay focused on finding common ground and learning about one another,

seeing the humanity in one another, that opens up so many possibilities for us to do big things, great things. I think about when John F. Kennedy said, we're going to the moon. And had we had that type of leadership in the pandemic, I'm confident we would have lost fewer lives. I'm confident that we would have come through it

and not had this angry hangover that everyone seems to have. They take it out on airline attendance, they take it out on wait servers. I mean, I think that this is something that continues to plague us. And I am hopeful that after this election cycle, you know, I'm glad to see that there still are some Republicans who claim to be Republicans, even though they aren't going to vote for Donald Trump because they want to take their

party back. I think it's important for us to have at least a two-party system that is robust and thoughtful and debates. We don't have that right now. And I really think that that's doing us all a disservice and making it harder for us to solve big problems and to look out for one another. And that leadership, that vision, that humanity really does matter. And I think that's, we're really fortunate that we've got, you know, a ticket like Harris Walls that could restore all that. So much of this moment is about people being brave and speaking up and putting signs in their yards and talking to their friends and phone banking and saying things online and like kind of being bold. And there's also never been more pushback to that. And you do get yelled at and no matter what, it's going to be scary and people are going to

scream at you and half of them are bots and half of them. And I justifiably have a lot of brave progressive friends who are, when I ask them why they haven't spoken out are like, hello, I don't have the nervous system for this. Like I'll work, I'm working privately, but like it's a setup. I end up getting scared a lot. Like I have a nervous system that when people yell at me, it takes me a minute.

I have to like, I know that I'm going to come back and do it again, but it's not a simple process. You're saying you have a stoicism. I'm wondering, it has to be pretty intense to have the president of the United States, the people in the parking lot, the trying to kill you, the having children during that time. What do you tell people that might help them be bold,

get the feedback and continue on anyway? Like, do you just have really good therapy? Like what? Yeah, can you check have really good therapy? Like what? Yeah, he texts us the name of your therapist. Yeah. Therapy helps. And one of the great pieces of counsel I've gotten in therapy at one point was this incredibly wise woman I was talking with. And she, you know, we were talking about my early childhood, my parents divorced woman I was talking with and she, you know, we were talking about my early childhood, my parents divorced when I was really little kid, six, and I took on a lot of added responsibility. We also talked about, you know, as a rape survivor, what that's meant and how that's informed who I've become and she observed that every one of us is a ball of clay and sometimes things are taken

away from us so we're like hollowed out. And and it's hurt. And it's painful. And it's not right. But sometimes it's that which gives us purpose, right. And so like that ball of clay that's hollowed out is now a cup. It's a vessel. It's got purpose. And I'm a visual learner. I love that visual because it helps me find good even in hard things and really unfair things. And that's that has, I think, driven a lot of of who I am and how I show up. I'm lucky to that, you know, my dad gave me a copy of the four agreements, you know, about

20 years ago. Yeah. And take nothing personally is a really important one of the four agreements I talk I have a chapter in my book about that with different things that have happened to me, whether it's giving my first state of the state and nailing it and feeling so good that I've set forth this vision for Michigan and then the coverage was all about the dress I was wearing. And they did a whole segment interviewing people to ask them what they thought about my dress. And people were talking about my boobs and my stomach and,

you know, it was just horrible and it was depressing. And yet, okay, like, I've been bullied since I was a little kid, you're not going to take me off my message and just get right back at it. And the good news is people can respond positively to that. But not everyone can do that. And maybe I couldn't do that 30 years ago, but I can now as a 52 year old woman who has fewer Fs to give, right? So I think that that's, you know, those are important lessons that I've learned over my life

that has helped me when it's ugly to get back in or to stay in. But if checking out for a little while is good for you, then you should do it, right? And I don't recommend that everyone has the same reaction. We got to take care of ourselves in this process. You're 28. I'm just thinking of your life. You are, you know, you're a teenager who accidentally throws up on the principal's shoes when you get, when you're drunk in the parking lot.

You are, you're fun. You're fun, Gretch. I am. I am your, your fun friend from high school. You never thought would amount to much. Welcome. That's why you belong here. Um, I know it was, I was like, there's hope for us yet. Um, and then you, obviously you get serious in law school, you talk about how that's the being surrounded

by ambitious smart people kind of locked you in of, oh, this looks interesting to me. You're 28 working at a law firm. What the hell are you thinking running for office? Like, and what do you say to all the people out there who women, you know, we undermine our own ability and credibility. Talking to your 28 year old self, what are you saying to the women out there that are like, that's crazy. I can't do that. I'm not ready for that.

I tell young women all the time. I tell, you know, women of all ages all the time. We set the bar so incredibly high for ourselves. Men don't do that. I wasn't born to run. I didn't come out of the womb saying I'm going to be the president of the United States without any credentials. Are you saying that right now? Some people do. No, no, no. I'm saying that. We just want to break the news. No, I've got my team right now. All right. Right now, she said, right now. But come back in a few years, OK, will you,

to make that announcement? We'll see. I didn't come out thinking that I was going to ever be a candidate. I fell in love with public policy. I was practicing law. And it was a friend who called and said, your state representative is term limited.

You should think about running. And I had never thought about myself as the candidate. I called both my parents who long divorced at that point, but we're my, you know, I'm very good friends with my dad. I was so close to my mom. I lost her a number of years ago, but um, they both were so enthusiastic. You can do this. And I was like, really? You know, I just, and then I looked at the field of candidates and like, yeah, I can do this. I can do it as good as, if not better than most of these people, so why not?

And I jumped in and we do, we say, okay, I've got to hold a lower office first. No, I've got to have this degree. No, I've got to be married or office first. No, I've got to have this degree. No, I've got to be married or have kids or have whatever this chapter is. No, as a single woman, I was 28, I was a lawyer and it had never dawned on me to do it. And I jumped in, I barely won my first election.

I talk a little bit about that in the book. My dad gave me some great advice about- Oh, I love this. The decision toward the end of my primary campaign. Three weeks out, we did a poll and I was down 20 points. This, my female opponent, she was kicking my butt. And, you know, we had to, had to have a, you know, kind of one of those tough conversations with my campaign team. My dad was a part of it. He's one of my best advisors my whole life. And the campaign chairman said, you know, well, we've got an opposition file very thick

on your opponent. It's time for us to go scorched earth. It's the only chance we have of winning. And he said, we're going to get negative, like bashing or negative. Okay. You can hit her on this, hit her on that, et cetera. And my dad interrupted and he said, well, what would it take to win and stay positive? And the campaign manager said, I don't think you can.

We're down too far. We don't have enough time. And my dad said, Gretchen, you will regret running that kind of a campaign. You're going to live in this community for a long time and you will regret running that kind of campaign. I encourage you to try to win this and stay positive and we'll pull out all the stops, what would it take? And they said, well, if we do this, that and the other thing, maybe, maybe, maybe.

And I got an attorney general to endorse me. He was very popular. I lost my hometown by two votes, but I won the other part of the district by 190 or something like that and ended up winning and I've won every race since then but that lesson that comment from my dad has always stayed in the back of my head you never regret being kind. I was at the athletic club I don't know 15 years ago and there was a guy walking through and he looked familiar and he said, well, hi, you know, representative. And I was like, hi.

And my default, if I can't think of your name, is I'll throw my arms around you, you know, and hug you. That's who I am. And I was like, you know, he looks familiar, but I can't place him. And I walked away and then I realized he was the architect of the slash and burn campaign against me from my Republican opponent.

And I walked away thinking, God, I don't like that guy. And I thought, you know, rather be kind to someone I didn't mean to be than unkind to someone I didn't mean to be. So you never regret being kind, I think is good advice. I have two followups. Number one is that is so cool that your friend called you to say that.

Like so many of us can't see the leadership potential in ourselves. If you're listening and you know who that friend is, call that friend. If she says no, accept it. But maybe people need a little noticing of their potential. Plant the seed. Yeah, yeah.

And then what is the first thing? Like I need you to tell me. So somebody's like, I think I should run. Like, do you email someone? Do you stand on your corner? Like what is step one of, I would like to throw my hat in the ring? I, you know, it's getting active

in the local party structure. It is making sure you start to meet everybody and pulling all your friends and relatives in. And one of the hardest things is raising money. So you're calling all of your friends and family people you've known for a long time. That's where you start. You know, it's a, it's a quick, steep education, but there are lots of folks and organizations now that will help candidates who want to jump in. We're doing a lot of training here on the ground in Michigan to help pro-choice Democratic candidates. We're always trying to encourage more women to jump in, but we train male candidates too, people who want to do this work on the right side of the issues from our perspective, and we're training them. But organizations like Emily's List

and Planned Parenthood Advocates, and they're just were the DGA ultimately in my governor's race. They all were really important allies to helping build something I'd never done before. And those things are now available and there's more of them now than ever. So it's daunting and

it's not for everybody. Every one of us can and should play a role in this government. But for those who are willing to run, it can be incredibly rewarding. I can tell you this, I don't make a lot of money, but I wouldn't change a thing because I feel really lucky to be where I am. And I know what I'm doing when I deliver a budget that feeds 1.4 million Michigan kids breakfast and lunch every day in school. I know what I'm doing is making a difference and that's the best reward in the world.

Yeah, I think it would well say like recently we might not have the 10 commandments in our classrooms, but we feed children for free every day, like, which is more Christian. I'm just thinking about how the parallels to you coming into office this second term, where you have the Holy Trinity of all the power structures that you earned through the campaigning.

And instead of, even though Michigan is, it's not totally blue through and through, you're a mix, you passed a lot of very aggressive initiatives right away. You're unapologetic in showing up there. And it reminds me a lot of what Walls is saying when he's saying, you don't build political capital to hoard it, to save it so you can keep it, you burn it to the ground to help people. That is the model that you used. To the person who's listening to this and is like, what the hell is my life gonna change anyway?

There are these people yelling at each other all the time. What do you think that they, how will they change people's lives? As you say, make lives better. Tell us how it will practically affect Americans to have Harrison Walls in the White House. Well, I think about one of my political heroes, Nancy Pelosi. And whether you love her or not, you

better respect that woman, because she has shown how to use power and how to use power to get things done. Her book that just came out is- Art of Power. Yes, I highly recommend. She and I were at an event together last night and understanding your power and being willing to use it,

I think is really important. And for women of a certain generation, I think it's more challenging. My generation, it's gotten easier and I know that the generations that follow will be even more challenging. My generation, it's gotten easier and I know that the generations that follow will be even more bold. But I always tell people, listen, I was elected to govern this state and to use every tool at my disposal to deliver on the agenda that I was elected on. And I'm not going to ever apologize for doing exactly that. And when I own my space, it's easier for Jocelyn Benson,

our secretary of state, to own hers, and Dana Nessel, our attorney general, to own hers. I know that with Nancy Pelosi using her power, that's why a million people in Michigan have healthcare today, because she's the one that got the Affordable Care Act over the finish line. A million people would not have health care today. So I think about the threat of that all being stripped away

with one candidate returning to the White House or the groundwork that can be done to take it the next step, which is what Kamala Harris and Tim Walz would do. Think about reproductive rights. I think about LGBTQ rights and the potential of future appointments to the United States Supreme Court or an agenda that comes out of Congress and hits a desk. Who signs or vetoes that bill matters in our every single, everyday lives. Affordable housing

is something that I know that the Harris-Walls administration is going to work on and that is a need in every community across this country. And so these are the fundamentals, I think, that hit people at home where they are keeping money in their pockets and having a way to get a good paying job, which is exactly what the Biden-Harris administration's laid the groundwork for and why we need to take it to the next step.

Thanks. Thanks, Governor Whitmer, for leading with such effectiveness and boldness and kindness and joyfulness. It's just, it's really beautiful. Yeah. Um, just speaking from like the perspective of, of an athlete who, you know, there wasn't many people that I could look up to growing up as somebody in my position.

And I just, knowing what you've had to endure from the right and knowing that you stand in your power in spite of all that, you know, I just think about our daughters. I think about little kids growing up and I just, you know, it's very rare to see a woman deal with the kind of stuff that you and Vice President Kamala have to deal with and I just thank you for in many ways taking one for so many of us taking one for the team as we like to call it in sports you're such a badass and we're so grateful to have you on this podcast and so grateful to have you in government and in governments like Michigan. You're wonderful. Thank you so much. Coming from badasses like yourselves, best compliment ever.

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