We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Hannah Gadsby: How to Communicate Better

Episode Date: March 29, 2022

1. Why Hannah describes her later-in-life Autism Spectrum Disorder diagnosis as “an exfoliation of shame.” 2. How neurodiversity affects Hannah’s relationships–and how she connects to the world through what’s “interesting” instead of what’s “important.” 3. Hannah’s revolutionary commitment to stop using self-deprecating humor about her body, sexuality, and gender–and why we might all consider the same commitment. 4. Why it’s easier for Hannah to share her personal stories “in bulk” on stage instead of one-on-one. 5. What it takes for Hannah to prepare for conversations–like ours on We Can Do Hard Things. About Hannah: Tasmania’s own Hannah Gadsby stopped stand-up comedy in its tracks with her multi-award-winning show, Nanette. When it premiered on Netflix in 2018, it left audiences captivated by her blistering honesty and her singular ability to take them from rolling laughter to devastated silence. Its release and subsequent Emmy and Peabody wins took Nanette (and Hannah) to the world. Hannah’s difficult second album (which was also her eleventh solo show) was named Douglas after her dog. Hannah walked Douglas around the world, selling out the Royal Festival Hall in London, the Opera House in Sydney and the Kennedy Center in DC, a sit-down run in New York and shows across the US, Europe, Australia and New Zealand. Douglas covered Hannah’s autism diagnosis, moving beyond the trauma at the centre of Nanette and instead letting the world see the view from Hannah’s brain – one that sees the world differently but with breathtaking clarity. The show was an Emmy-nominated smash hit and is available throughout the world on Netflix, recorded in Los Angeles.  Hannah Gadsby’s “overnight” success was more than ten years in the making, with her award-winning stand-up shows having been a fixture in festivals across Australia and the UK since 2009. She played a character called “Hannah” on the TV series Please Like Me and has hosted multiple art documentaries, inspired by her comedy art lectures. In 2022, Hannah’s first book Ten Steps to Nanette: A Memoir Situation was published by Ballantine, an imprint of Penguin Random House, in the United States, Atlantic in the UK, and Allen & Unwin in Australia. Hannah has done plenty of other things over the course of more than a decade in comedy, but that will do for now. IG: hannah_gadsby TW: HannahGadsby To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it. Download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. Hi everybody, welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Today, we are having an absolutely beautiful conversation with the incomparable, brilliant, honest, funny, and absolutely wonderful Hannah Gadsby.

I have been wanting to speak to Hannah Gadsby for so long, ever since I laughed and cried and raged my way through the net. And then after that, with Douglass, which are her standup specials. Right, her standup Netflix specials. And we talk about all kinds of beautiful things today telling stories and parenting and especially neurodiversity, which I know sister, you've been wanting

to talk about on the pod for so long. I'm so thankful that she came on and shared so honestly, and quite a lot about she has a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder. And I think it's so important to hear from women about that. Her story is fascinating. She went through really hard time. She was unhoused. She was in terrible situations, a lot of her life

and was only diagnosed when she was 30. Basically, I think it was a year before Nanak came out. And a lot about her story has to do with living without this knowledge of herself, but just living in kind of an ill-fitting world. And it is a place where a lot of girls are. And it's just so important that people learn about this and the way that girls do not exhibit the same science of autism that boys do. We live by a male model of autism, so that means they're looking for the same markers. That means when they're ultimately diagnosed, they're getting the same therapies. When, in fact, the girl brain with autism looks different than

the boy brain with autism. It results in a lot of real damage. 42% of girls are diagnosed with another mental disorder instead of autism when they go to get checked. And boys are diagnosed two years earlier. So there's a lot of girls struggling out there with depression and anxiety. And like Hannah, not being diagnosed until they're 30, and her words, not haven't participated

in life up to that point because they've been so sideline by it. This conversation can help a lot of us to understand ourselves and give us insight into people we love. And importantly, it can help us reframe neurological diversity as differences, not as deficiencies. What Hannah shared about the exhaustive preparations she has to do to navigate everyday things, including this conversation today, was so important. It reminded me of something I read that explained how we all have a social brain, a network made up of multiple regions throughout the brain that help us navigate social interactions.

And there's a new line of unpublished research suggesting that in girls and women with autism, they keep their social brain engaged, but every bit of social interaction may be mediated through the prefrontal cortex, which means that whereas many of us are able to deal with social interactions instinctively, for girls and women with autism, processing every social interaction can be the equivalent of doing high-grade math.

So when she talks about being exhausted, having to prepare, how depleting it is, it's because every social queue is essentially an equation of long division, which is the labor neurodivergent folks do in masking to be in relationship and community. Masking is mimicking trying to replicate what other people are doing, but they're not doing it by instinct. I just am really thankful that she goes and to that detail that for us because I think it's really important as empathy for for people understanding the people that we love that that's the work

they're doing every day, the work that we take for granted just getting a feeling. Yeah, and it's so important when talking about neurodiversity to actually be talking to when talking about neurodiversity to actually be talking to people who are neurodivergent. And with that, we're going to give you Hannah Gadsby. Hannah Gadsby stopped stand-up comedy in its tracks with her multi-award winning show Nanette. Its release and subsequent Emmy and Peabody wins took Nanette and Hannah to the world. Hannah's difficult second album, which is also her 11th solo show, was named Douglas after her dog. Douglas covered Hannah's autism diagnosis, moving beyond the trauma at the center of Nanette,

and instead letting the world see the view from Hannah's brain, one that sees the world differently, but with breathtaking clarity. The show was an Emmy-nominated smash hit and is available throughout the world on Netflix. Hannah's award-winning shows are a fixture in festivals across Australia and the UK. Her first book, Ten Steps to the Net, a memoir situation, which I adored, is out now. We're talking today to someone who, I think on my list of top five humans, guests that I was dying to have on the show,

was right up there. Number right. And that is her. Her name is Hannah Freaking Godspeed. Thank you. Thank you for the middle name. Yeah. I have one. I'm going now. Thank you. Thank you for the middle name. Yeah. I have one going now. Okay. Hannah, your new book is so freaking wonderful. I Abby knows I picked it up and then disappeared from my family for three days because I just thought it was so wonderful. I couldn't put it down. Thank you. So nice with your head. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, it did.

We'll get into that. For sure. It did. I love the whole journey that you take us through with your mom. I love your mom. You love your mom. Everyone who reads your new book is going to love your mom. And when you were a kid, your mom was harassing you so relentlessly about some dirty glasses

in your room that eventually you blew up, exploded, started cursing at her, and she was happy because she said, I just wanted you to feel. And then later she said, after you got your autism diagnosis, I think you were 30. Spoiler that. Right? Spoiler that. She said, I thought there was a lot going on inside you. You were like a tin of baked beans and my tin opener wouldn't work on you. Oh, yeah, too. I'm just give that some context. My mom Yeah, too. I'm just give that some context. My mum is a very distinct character and in my my performance life, I impersonate her. So just to give that how it really was for me, she said this, oh yes, I always knew you there was a lot going on inside you. You were like a tin of baked beans and my tin

opener was broken, I just couldn't get in. And I said to my mum, you don't like baked beans. She said no. No. Yeah. She's a very funny lady, very funny lady. But yeah, I was a bit locked up as a kid. I didn't have great language access. So, and also, you know, the feelings thing was, you know, because I'm not typical. It's frustrating, I think, for neurotypical parents to connect with neurodiversion children, but you get there. So what was that like as a kid growing up as you without a diagnosis? Well, it's, you know, it's difficult. I think it might be worth like just clearing up what autism is.

Great. Exactly. You know, because there's a lot of, we'll just call it misinformation. And I think, so what it basically is, like if you want to boil it down to its bare bones, minimum, is it's what animates you, what drives your central nervous system. In your typical people, it is sort of what is important. So what drive your behaviour is what is important and where you are in the social tribe and you're a divergent people, it is what's interesting and that can vary. Like, there's saying is like, you know, what's, you've met one person on the spectrum, you've met one person on the spectrum. The particular place that I am on the spectrum is I have, I have, you know,

sensory processing disorder that now people can have sensory processing disorders and not be on the spectrum. That's an important distinction to make. But where I'm and I do have that, I am turned all the way up to no filters. I'm going to have very heightened. Some of them cross over a little bit, my taste and smell are kind of sometimes And then there are two others, and vestibular and pro-seerception. So I'm hyper-aware of my space, clutter distresses me, and I have the vestibular is a balance issue. So I don't know where my head is in space.

So I fall over, I have a lot of accidents. I hurt myself a lot. So it's just like this invisible disability that becomes very visible, because I break my leg. I'm currently got a broken leg, because I fell, but didn't know that I was falling until it's too late.

And so I broke my leg. It's fun times, good times. Last year I had a total knee reconstruction. Same thing was falling before, you know, and it was too late, gravity, gravity was always already my bitch. And so I had my knee busted. And the year before that, I busted my nose open. and then it was a broken toe. Like, I have, you know, if someone were to dig me up and, you know, after I stayed, like, 100 years at time, they would dig me up and go, wow, I think we found a warrior princess. You know, because my skeletal system is, you know, it's like got the marks of war, but really, I fell over walking. Yeah. So I'm playing a long game, really. And so these are sort of, you know, not knowing

these things that, you know, I have sensitivities was kind of a lot of the kid because you see people behave in a way and interact and socialize in a way and you try and do that. And I would get completely overwhelmed or disassociate because you know, I have an oral processing disorder so I can't I can't tune into noise very well and sorted out in my head. So it's very easy for me to just tune out and listen to people who are speaking English and go, wow, that's a foreign language. And so I have to focus really hard, which made learning very difficult. I was very lucky.

My mum made all my clothes, though there is a dark side to that. Happy Papadashri abuse is real. But so I never had like the tag issues because there was no tags on my clothes. She always used nice fabric in the texture quality, not necessarily patterns. No child needs to wear haloquen sweaters. And then, so there was a lot about my childhood that protected me from the worst of my ASD. I grew up in a really small town and I have a part of a large family so I had a ready-made social network. I just fit in. But it was windy there. Like I grew up

in a really small island and on the northwest coast. It's like it's famous for its fresh air. Who knew? I did. I just told you. And it's really windy and so I was always confused because wind froze sound around. And so I was perpetually confused as a child. Like, you know, I was always given names like, you know, Dithery or vague or dopey and, you know, these sorts of things. And I used to confuse people because on one hand I could be incredibly intelligent and then as Dama's bricks.

And the older I got, the more people would read into that, the less adorable I became and people would say it is willful or manipulative because I could misunderstand what's going on and accidentally hurt people's feelings, but it would be an honest mistake on my behalf, but it would be difficult for people to believe that because, you know, on the next breath, I could be incredibly intelligent. And not knowing, and not being able to sort of contextualize all that confusion for me was difficult. You talk about social situations, like social, and you describe it as thinking that everyone's just saying what they mean. Tell me. Fix this for me. You think everyone's just saying what they mean and that's how you're operating, but you realize there's an undercurrent of things

that people are communicating in ways that you're not picking up. Is that? Yeah, yeah. There's no subtext for me. Like blows my mind. When you know people say I was just being polite, but really, the person that I was being polite to leaves and they're like, hey, them, I'm like, you were so nice to them. How are they supposed to know? I didn't know. That was nice to the person I'm supposed to not like.

And then you'd hear people deconstruct conversations and then they said this thing and that meant this and I'm like, did it? It's so much. These things. And then, you know, once I was diagnosed, it was like, you know, I don't actually care. You go talk amongst yourselves. I'm going to rearrange my furniture.

So was it freeing? Was it freeing? Was it freeing? Tell me about getting diagnosed. Did it feel like something had been wrong with you that you didn't understand and now it didn't feel wrong anymore? It felt like it's own thing. It felt like an exfoliation of shame. Wow.

Because once you understand that you have ASD, you understand that there's not a lot in your control. Like, then it's less about being a bad person for not caring about small talk. And then you understand that it's not how you connect to other people. You know, it's not how you connect to the world. I connect through my passions and my interests. to the world, I connect through my passions and my interests. And when someone who's neurodivergent wants to connect to the world and to people, it's through those things. It's like, what is interesting? And neuro-typical people is like, what is important. And it's, you know, neuro-typical people interact, you know, and connect face to face, you know, it's like direct. interact, you know, and connect face to face, you know, it's like direct. Um, whereas I'm into parallel play, you know, you want to get to know me, you go over there and do what you're doing, I'll be in the same room doing my thing and have only had a great

time. Hmm. Not if, not if, not if they want to talk about their feelings. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it.

That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread.

And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy, a new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. your feelings, you say, no, I do that in bulk on stage. Yeah, I'm like the Costco of human interactions. It's like, we're just buying bulk and just a certain line of products, just one of each. And you, I don't, I've never actually been to Costco.

That sounds like a nightmare to me. It is. It's Costco, even a thing. It is. It's a nightmare. Yeah. Yeah, it's just, yeah. So it's a really bad metaphor to me. It is. It's possible even a thing. It's a nightmare. Yeah, yeah, it's just, yeah. So it's a really bad metaphor for me because I hate big shopping places.

Especially, yeah, anyway. So, but we'll keep going with it. So it's sort of, I've lost myself. Can I have my ex husband when I was married? You used to sit down and say, No, I don't know. It's a whole thing and I'm my ex husband when I was married used to sit down and say, no, it's a whole thing. You used to sit down and say, so I heard, I read that your depression is back. I read it in a magazine.

And he would try to talk to me about it. And I would say, but just read the article again. Like I just, I wrote about it. I did it in bulk. Yeah, I feel like I kind of get where it's coming from there. It's sort of like maybe he could have seen an advanced copy. That's going on. This is like, you know, maybe a headzump.

Yeah. We've altered that in our marriage, right? Like before things go to press, you know, yeah. I can help you edit your bulk declaration of situation? It is a tricky thing. Like I think you just have to work out like with any relationship I guess you have to just meet people where they're at. When two neurodivergent people communicate, it's fluid. When two neurotypical people talk to each other, it's fluid. It's just when the two meet, it can be really, really awkward.

And I've experienced that often. But the thing is, I have learned the ways of the neurotypicals. I have studied these people. I prepare for a neurotypical engagement. I know I'm trained in the art of small talk because I know it's important. The problem is, is the privilege of neurotypical people is they don't have to learn how to parallel play with what has happened as your pathologized. It's like you're not communicating correctly. Therefore, you are less than you are not doing this right. You are weird. You know, back in the day, they'd burn you at the stake, you know, like totally think I'm

a witch. Like I think that's what witches were, just neurodivergent women. I totally float if you threw me in the river. I, that blew my mind because I heard you say ultimately what I'm in the business of is to demand people be more aware of how and why they think, not what they think, because that's the reality of autism. You have autism, you have to think about how you think. That's what you do. And neuro-typicals don't do that. They just assume the way they think is right. I live with people who have some...

Sprinkling? Nourished. Sprinkling. It's a veritable cornucopia over here. And accountable. Yes. And that thinking, you know, turning that lens on myself and thinking, no, this is how you're thinking about it. And that is why you're out of sync. Not necessarily,

there's something wrong or broken about the way they're thinking. And how do you think that people who want to balance that hierarchy as it's set up right now, who want to connect with people, who they love, who are neurodivergent, how do we begin to understand about how we think that is building those barriers? I think a really great place to start is not to take things personally and just move past it to the next thing. It's really difficult, I think, with the parent-child relationship because you know, children don't have the parent child relationship, because it's, you know, you don't have children don't have the language yet, they're learning the language in order to, you know, then communicate what issues are, what the problem are. You know, what might

look like as, you know, a tantrum is probably a sensory overload, and it looks like a small problem. So, you know, parent might go, well, you know, I'm taking you, I'm taking you seriously, but really, you know, come on, this is, you know, you don't like that camp, come on, clam down. But what's happening is perhaps there's something about the sensory part of this process that seems insignificant to a neurotypical, but is, you know, a war zone for someone on the spectrum. There's an expected, you know, bond that's supposed to happen with parents and children that neurodiver, children, children are always going to disappoint. And I think one of the first things is like, yeah, you've got to stop taking that seriously. I'm not sent, you know, I mean, you've got to take seriously, sorry, words are my gift. Personally, like try and sort of meet people where they're at.

And there's always going to be a lag with children because especially, you know, if you have difficulty with language, it's going to take a while to sort of get to that place. In the adult world, it is difficult for women on the spectrum. Men get out, you know, there is a certain place on the spectrum that is reserved for the great white geniuses, and they're allowed to hyper focus on their special interest and be terrible at interpersonal communications and they're held up as the best of men. But it's much more difficult for women

because of the expectations in the social network that we're supposed to uphold. And when we fail, that is a failure of character. And it's really difficult to sort of convince people that it's like, I can't do it any differently. My brain is not wired to do what you want it to do. Now what? But we sort of get stuck on this like you're weird, you're doing this wrong, you know, and it's I came a flage and mask a lot and that's an incredibly exhausting process. Like,

so for this podcast, I have to prepare a lot like I had to listen to you. Not it wasn't a chore. I love your podcast. Well done. Okay, but the work. But it wasn't, it wasn't, it was really active engagement with it because in order to talk to three people at the same time, I felt, you know, like I had to make sure I understood the way that you speak, the cadence you pitch, not as a way of familiarizing myself. So when in the moment, hoping that I could hear what you're saying, process it and then turn it around with reciprocal speech, takes a huge amount of

effort for me. So what might look like, you know, you know, as just a casual chat is a marathon for me. And so then that depletes your energy levels. And then once you, I have meltdowns, I shut down mostly. I just stop communicating. And that's hard for people if they don't want to believe that it's not personal. It's great, it's a good life, love it.

How you just shared is such a gift. I mean, that's so important to understand that the work that you put in to showing up in a space, I just feel like that's a gift for people to understand that. And thank you for doing that for this. No problems. Hannah, can you talk to us? Problems I outlined. It's nice.

But no problems. No worries. There's a lot of worry. But no, we're cool. Thanks. How does AST affect relationships? Like what challenges? And if there are gifts, what are those?

Cause you're in a relationship now. Nailing it. Nailing it? Yeah. The before, there was a disconnect of, you know, when I'm asked, I'm fine. Like people are like, you're normal.

You're a little bit quirky, but you're normal. But you can't maintain that. That's exhausting. And so once you're spending your private time with someone, I begin to melt down. So it will be reactive. I struggle to regulate my emotions when I'm under stress. And I have a lot of trauma, big teas and little teas.

So that also affects your ability to regulate. So, you know, I can, I have been, you know, I can frighten people, you know, when I'm just trying to set, I have devastatingly simple needs. If those needs aren't met, then I, you know, can be snappy in a way that is not pleasant for other people. And so I was laboring under the, you know, the false idea that, you know, that perhaps I was borderline abusive, but what was happening was my boundaries would not be respected. And so I'd be a snappy Tom. And they're like, you know, when I'm fine, I'm very easy going and like, okay, so it just seemed like I was Dr. Jackal, Mr. Hyde. And one of the really interesting

ones for me is touch because it's overwhelming for me. And then I band relationships that what are you supposed to do that? It's all about attaching it. I touch you feeling and I'm like, oh, I don't have to talk about feelings again. Just a light touch. That's universal standard, isn't it? For intimacy, You know, intimacy, just like just a nice off-top, and I'd flinch, you know, like, because that is a really horrible sensation for me. So, but not knowing that, people take that as rejection, like, oh, you know, you hate you find me repulsing, like, no, just that touch. Generally, lovely. But it's really hard to communicate that when you don't know

even when I did know I struggled for a while because it seems simple it doesn't seem like much. I think you know if people kept not touching me with firm touch and just the light touch I kept flinching it kept flinching it builds up and it just doesn't it's a really easy fix but the other person has to want to believe that I don't want to go light touch. I don't know if I'm answering your questions. You are. I love it.

I have kind of a follow up question, if you don't mind. I love follow up questions, Abby, so thank you. So in terms of like neuro-typical and neuro-divergent, it would be, because I think, I mean, I actually, since we had our pre-call, I'm like, I think I want to get tested because I just feel like we all are somewhere on a spectrum, right?

And I think I've had learning stuff throughout my life that I want to just understand more. But I think it's the role, like, what happens is, is neuro-typical people want to like fix this part maybe in you. So like, let's go through a process, Hannah. Is this like common? Like, let's go through a process and work on this touch.

Like, let's expose your therapy. Yeah, like, let's beat this out of you or pray it away. Like, what? Have that, has that ever happened in your life? Oh, like, oh, all the time. And I do it to myself before I diagnosed too. So like, because I'm a problem,

so I have the problems I was brain. So like, this is a problem, I want to fix it. And then so like, I experiment with fixing it. And this is like, this, you know, ends up, I've had so many major depressive episodes. It's, it's almost funny again. Because it's that, that overwhelm of putting yourself into these sort of situations that are overwhelming and detrimental to your central nervous system and then you just can't cope and

then it's like broadcast out. And I will say this Abby like you, do if you feel like there's something that I'm saying that is connecting to you. And I'm speaking very vague and specific terms here and it is a very complicated thing. But do get yourself checked out because if you are, it'll be a game changer. And I will also say this, there is a very large crossover between autism and gender ambivalence. We'll call it ambival, I'm going to call it gender ambivalent. Because you know, left to my own devices, like whatever, but people in your typical demands that like front-on on like what are you? But inside of me, it's just like well, it's just coming out. How it's coming out? Isn't that like you need to deal with your feelings on this?

But there are a lot of non-binary folk, trans folk, gender queer folk on the spectrum. Because I think there's something about the gender binary that on the spectrum. Because I think there's something about the gender binary that does not make sense because it is logical. It is what is important, not what is interesting. Interesting, cool. Why is it so hard for girls to get diagnosed? What is that about? We present differently, so the idea of what autism is is being based and studied on young men. White men, if we want to get specific,

like the biases that exist in science everywhere in all parts of science, medicine, research, exist in this. So, there are women of color on the spectrum and a lot of them are running around not knowing it because it will be different again because women are expected to behave in a certain way. And as a culture, we've been trained to follow Johnnie's women who don't who have fuller joys women who don't behave in the correct way, in the way that it is a character flaw. It is, you're going to hell, you're not going it right. You know, it is that shaming. And so if a young boy doesn't interact with his peers and he wants to identify every single dinosaur there is fine.

That seems normal in a way. If a girl was to do that, often their peers will identify it as wrong before a parent will observe it and they begin masking. So the masking thing in girls, because you're watching a peers and you're like, they're doing these things, I should do these things. And so I think a lot of the time, not so much now, like it's opening up now, but I think women of my generation, that's what it's happening. Like you're masking and you find people in their 40s having breakdowns all the time, women on the spectrum and diagnosed women.

your mask and you find people in their 40s having breakdowns all the time women on the spectrum and diagnosed women and It's similar to even our model of heart attacks how women present very differently than men and so Women are dying of heart attacks because their symptoms don't match girls typically have a Often a different presentation than boys often a different presentation than boys, but made sense when you said the exfoliation of shame, because girls are kind of in this last period of masking and not being identified, then they're going through adolescence, then they're being diagnosed with depression and anxiety

as the primary reason for their struggles, and oh, that's so hormonal. And then they spend their whole lives thinking their lives aren't working out because of their depression and anxiety and not their depressed and anxious because they've never been identified and understood for who they are. Yeah, I always sort of like the frame.

It is like I always thought that I was struggling because I was depressed and anxious, but then I realized I'm depressed and anxious because I am struggling. And so I never identified that I was struggling, you know that, that like I didn't understand that I wasn't looking people in the eye, because I would just watch their mouths move. I didn't understand that I couldn't hear properly. I can hear properly. My hearing is, as my mum would call, 2020.

That's tight mum. But I do. I watch people's mouths, and that helps me put together what they're saying. And so it's a lot of compensatory techniques that I use to get through that. But also it's about how trauma presents in neurodivergent people is not the same. So getting therapy is fraught, particularly if a therapist doesn't know or you don't know, you know, so you know that there's like, let's talk about this thing again. Let's talk about this thing again and that is so stressful. Like it is so stressful to be front facing to these things because the central nervous system is not cut out for that sort of onslaught. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it thinks compound. And a lot of people, women on the spectrum have complex PTSD because these, these small traumas are just daily.

Mm-hmm. Can you talk to us about your decision to stop using self-deprecating humor about your body or about your sexuality or about your gender or any of it in comedy? How did that come to you and what does it mean to you? That's a long process. When I first started doing comedy, I was quite monosyllabic and I had to learn very, you know, train very hard to modulate my voice and things like that. But, you know, I was very deadpan and just used to work with people's assumption on who I was and then subverted it, but that in order to subvert people's assumption, you have

to play in that, on that field, you have to play that game. And even if you're trying to subvert it, you're still kicking that ball around. You're still kicking the stereotypes around. You're still engaging with stereotypes. And as I matured as a performer, I got bored with that. That was no longer interesting, even though it was important to an audience. And I began to feel very disconnected. So, you know, about eight years into my career, I started going, I don't make sense on stage anymore. And part of that was, early on, you know, I do stand up and then during festivals, I'd work with like a gallery and do comedy art lectures. Now, we worked out, I wanted to do comedy art tours,

but turns out I'm not a natural leader. So I'd be going, right, we'll go and look at this painting now and I'd go over there and I'd stand and everyone's like, oh, we're going over here. And like, I'm like, no one's following me. So we were quite quickly. That I have to people have to be seated facing me stuck. And then they're like, Oh, you're actually quite interesting. All right. But so I do comedy art lectures. And what I discovered there is I became what's known as a high status comic when I was talking about my special interests.

Because I'm passionate. I'm talking as an or you know, about my special interests. Because I'm passionate. I'm talking as an art, you know, with my autism first. It's like, this is what I'm interested in. And, you know, people love these. They're really popular. And I love doing them. And I feel good on stage. And I'm like, this is me being autistic.

This is me, like being funny as you know without masking. And in my comedy though when I'm trying to explain myself and go you know like it's very hard for me to do observational humor because like I'm not looking at the same things everyone's just like you know you know what it's like and people like no what you're speaking of is not familiar. So you have to do a lot of explaining. And then so in that I folded in a lot of masking. And then that becomes confusing. As you get older and more mature and you like who you are, you're just like this is a true representation of how I see the world or how I think people, you know, like I'm softening

myself. I'm, you know, I'm apologizing. I'm like, hey, it's weird that I'm like this, isn't it? And they're like, ah, yeah, it is. And then eventually I just broke. I said, you know, once not weird that you don't notice that people are different. And that, that very much informed, like my desire to stop being self-deprecating, because I just wanted to be autistic. I didn't want, I just wanted to go, hey, I've got some stuff to talk about and whatever feelings you have about what this is, you need to get over it, because I've got things to say. And that is part of the reason.

The other part of the reason is, come on. Like, why, particularly women, why do we have to put ourselves down in order to speak in public? It hasn't changed. I get still got all the hate mail that you want. Like take a pic. Like men have been trained not to like women who speak their mind in public. It's a thing. We're not going to change it soon. We're going to have to grin and bear it. But I may as well grin and bear it being confident. Yeah. So I just want to talk about that you do. Good to. I just want to talk forever, but we only have 15 minutes.

So here's what I want to talk about now. Fast money right here. This is what's interesting to me. Is the journey that you and your mom have taken, but that in terms of the journey you've taken to figure out what comedy is to you, you had a moment with your mom where she was talking about not having regretted anything and you said, is there anything maybe? Yeah, well, she said this thing. She's like, it's like, I'm really proud. I like impersonating my mom. I'm really proud that I bought my kids up without religion. I really am. Because I've raised five children with minds of their own. I'm really proud of that. And I'm like,

well, don't you, mom, you pay yourself. I'm about to go on it. And I was just sort of like, she's having a feel like a moment and I missed it because I think we know why. And so I said, oh yeah, well, what parenting decisions do you regret, Mum? And there's a laundry list, I thought you'd go, and we talk like that a little bit, like, I'll say to Mum, I'm used to scare the butcher. He's a sad man when I was growing up. She said, cool, I didn't like you that much. And it's funny, we're being funny. It's quite Australian, I think this horrifies some American audiences, I say that, it's fine. But she wasn't going there. So she's been thoughtful and then she just said a thing that blew my mind

and it was the seed that came to my show in the net. She's like, the thing I regret is that I raised you as if you were straight. And I was like, I just, like, because when you, when you, the coming out story is all about will people accept you? And Mum just did all this work and I didn't know. She went way back and she went to a place that not many people are at now. She's like, push an 80. And she's like, oh, I shouldn't have assumed you were straight. And I wasn't your friend.

And I should have been. She said, I knew. I'm just committing to mum's voice. She's like, I wanted you to change because I knew the world wouldn't. And she's right. Well, didn't change. But she's like, and I was just sort of like, because when you, when you're coming out, it's overwhelming.

Like you just ready for the rejection. It's all, and I was just sort of like, because when you, when you're coming out, it's overwhelming like you're just ready for the rejection. It's all, and it is all about you. It has to be all about you. But the telling about coming out stories, telling of a lot of trauma stories, we are freeze framing on that moment of trauma. And we don't then have a lot of public discussions about these moments, because we live in a punishment society. Like we don't give room for restorative justice. Let's call it.

And the art history informed that part of it for me. So mum said this to me, but also because I was thinking a lot about proto-renetions, I made these connections. And this is the gift of ones. I made these connections. This is the gift of autism. You make connections. Your brain has more connections going on. In art history, I don't know if you know this, but it's a myth where people are like, oh, back in the day, not everyone could read. So they learned from paintings and pictures. And that is not correct. They learned through oral storytelling, I think. Stories would be told.

Stories are familiar. And the art played a purpose of freeze-framing the stories into familiar parts of the stories, points of the story. So, you know, the most famous one, I guess, is Christianity has been frozen to the crucifixion. Now, there is a big story, but the freeze frame is on that moment. That is a big decision, because from that freeze frame, you can leverage a lot of shame and guilt, because that's your fault. But there are some great stories

in that whole narrative, but that freeze frame. And that, you know, in mythology, it's the same thing. It's like a lot of stories are freeze-framed at the moment. A woman happens to be nude. That is a strong freeze frame there. So art history has this tendency to freeze frame. And I think generally our story telling sort of circles trauma and then solves it in a who done it kind of way. And then we don't have stories that then talk about, hey, I went through trauma, but I'm all right. Like, this doesn't define me. Fuck me up for a bit, sorry, language. But, you know, like older women have these stories where they can put into context in their entire life. Like, they're not, you know, and I was just missing those stories in the public sphere.

I know so many old ladies and they're just like, yeah, yeah, he's an idiot. They're all idiots, but they're fine. And, you know, I just wanted to put that breath into my own story. I was just like, you know, in my comedy, I made a lot of comedy out of the way my mum reacted and it was a way of like paved the way to for my own healing to be able to make fun of it. You need the jokes, but it then, you know, it stops our ability to talk about the evolution on both sides. And we're obsessed with trauma points.

Like, as in our storytelling culture, like news is nothing but scattergun trauma porn. Like, we always know what's going wrong, but we never know how stuff resolves. And I think public, you know, displays of resolution are important and missing. Can I read you one quote that you from your book that you said about your family? Sure. That I think is so important. So, we'd have said no. Yeah, it would be weird, but I would honor you. We would respect it.

Yeah, you very fast. This is about your mom having a very hard time with you coming out at first But you said our family unit had been collateral damage nothing more than pawn porn for the juvenile and toxic Political games being played out well above our heads. That is the shit that ruined my life Yeah, and that's happening now right now to particularly trans kids Yeah, and that's happening now, right now to particularly trans kids now because we're not talking about their humanity, we're talking about whether or not their gender is right and we're like, we're talking about whether we can solve gender right now and that's, it's a political point.

I see it's doing my head in like it's breaking my heart, it is excruciating to watch. We as adults are making the same mistakes. The way we speak about this subjects are in terms of like, I am right, you're wrong. It's just like, can we just, can we just agree that we don't know what the hell we are? And just, just give people what they need. And not pathologize, but this is like it is happening now as we speak.

The trans kids are being politicized. Mm-hmm. And that is exactly what happens in Maine. Some families are reacting badly to their humanity. And I think your point is so important that those families, those parents are ponds. Mm-hmm. They have been duped. They have been tricked. so important that those families, those parents are ponds. They have been duped.

They have been tricked. They have been preached to by higher powers that have taught them to fear their children. Yeah. Yeah. So how is it going with your mom now? How does she feel about your new book? Did she read it?

So I'm told, I'm not she read it? No, it's all lies, I'm not going to read it. Like she's a bit scared and it's fair enough. Like, you know, fair enough, it's her story too. And I've got complete control over it. So she's good, she's great. She's both my parents are good. I don't know, like dad was really sick when I was going through them,

donate of it all. And when at my first, you know, one of my last edits of the book, I think I forgot to tell people that he's fine because it's like his dying of melanoma and he got some experimental treatment and it turns out it was a good experiment. I mean, who knows, you know, I don't even know what a world could be. Warm bat blood. We don't know. But he's fine now. But it was, like, my mom and my dad are chalk cheese and the thing is, say that explicitly in the book.

And he's just so accepting. He's like, oh, yeah, good one. But mom, like, has a reaction. Then she goes away. And then she has a think about it. And then she has another reaction. And then she has to think about it. So that's what's happening now. She's having to think about it, having reactions, having thoughts. That's why we love her. Do you feel she called it, well, you called it in the book. And by the way, you did say your dad was okay. There was one little part. I had that in there like we need to know oh

There is no resolution there. I'm like, oh, yeah, he's fine. They are facts. It was a very small sentence just so you know But it was there Wasn't important Or or interesting. I know yeah, what an interesting. Your mom, you called it pinning butterflies. Yeah. The freeze frames of people's relationships or lives. Do you feel scared of that? Now that you have that understanding that telling stories about other people is kind of pinning butterflies, I'm just wondering if you feel scared about your work going forward because I do. I feel scared about telling stories about people suddenly.

Look, I think it's important to just tell stories. I think it's important to leave flexibility in the wave. The problem comes when people hold you to things and go, you're not allowed to evolve. That is the receiving of the story. But I think there's an enormous amount of healing that goes into the craft of of of a narrative. And that's what I do. I spend a lot of time working out how to tell stories.

And through that, I learn what part of the story is important to me. And, you know, working on stage a lot, my stories evolve. Sometimes to their detriment. So, you know, my coming out story, for instance, was designed to make people laugh. And that's where the issue was. Because the punchline was enough. But I think telling stories, I'm not frightened. I have a, I operate on the premise that it's okay to receive into the background and no one remembers who the hell I am. And I just work on the craft and then everything else will work itself out. And with that Hannah, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for all of the work that you did.

To problem, I would just like to acknowledge that I don't think I answered many questions directly, and I said a lot of information after you stopped talking. An interesting information and important information. Time will tell. We won't listen to time regardless, but please also thank Jenny. I will. Just again, thank you Hannah. Absolute pleasure. Keep real guys.

Keep on trucking. I hear the best. Thank you. See you. Yeah, thank you. Okay. What I want to say for our next straight thing today, it's not really a thing. This is a next straight idea.

Okay. I, one of the things that I connect so much with Hannah on is that her major sensitivity and her, um, she has incredible soundries. Okay. Sounds are important to her. She has offered me strategies about how when Abby sneezes loudly, I can be startled because there's no way I can not be startled. I will always be startled. But Hannah described for me a way that I can decide in my own self what's next after the startle. I don't have to become furious after the startle. I didn't know that. Sister, I didn't know that. Like, she told me

that when Abby sneezes, okay, so let's play this out. Okay. Here I go. Okay, sneeze. How chew. Okay. Well, that's not how it sounds. But not the way it sounds. And that's a false representation of the Abby sneeze. Right. It's an Olympic gold medal sneeze. I'm just being polite here. It is. It's like an alarm has gone off in our home. So let's say I'm doing the dishes or something. And that sneeze happens out of the blue.

And I immediately my entire body reacts. I my body freaks out. I am startled. I am startled. You can start all over. Hannah taught me after that, I can just go with it. I'm startled. Oh!

Oh! I'm startled. Oh! Like, there is an energy of startled. Can just go to like, I'm on a roller coaster. I don't have to then become utterly furious that this thing has startled me.

It's a transmutation of the energy. That's right. I can't control. I can't control my startle, but I can control what happens after the startle. And that comes with time, so I'm going to work on it. Okay, I have no idea why I started to tell that story. But here's the next straight idea.

Okay, this is just one quote from Nanette, which daily, I think about it. Okay, and I just feel like it's very important for all of our pod squatters, many of whom are sensitive human beings. Like all of them are here. Okay? Listen. Hannah Godspeed says, when people say, I'm too sensitive, I feel a bit like a nose being lectured by a fart. That's, we're just gonna leave that with you. Okay, do not let farts tell you that you are too sensitive. Wow. Okay.

I'm so impressed that you've just said fart parts. I know. I said it. I don't say fart. She said fart. She said fart. Wow. Okay. I'm so impressed that you've just said fart. I know. I said it. I don't say fart. I don't say fart. But I'm saying fart, fart, fart because it's so important to the message. Yeah. Okay. I have another thing that I had you straight. And I think that that's something we can think about and be like, oh, that's right. But then she talks about how when she was growing

up, right, you know, she should be playing by herself. she'd say, I don't want to go to that birthday party. I don't want to end, and as a parent, they'd say, but you're sad. You're sad if you don't go to the birthday party and you're just like, I'm not sad. And I think sometimes I, although I would never raise my kid with the assumption that they're straight and look at them that way, I think that I can very easily raise my kids

with the assumption that they're neurotypical. Oh. So if I see a group of kids playing and my daughter playing separately on her own, I feel intense pain and I project on her loneliness and sadness and separateness. But that's raising her like a straight kid. That's raising her like a neurotypical kid. I just really got that from today's podcast. I want to let my kid be exactly who they are without projecting

what the world will see them as. Yeah. I just want to see them through their own eyes and their own experiences. Amen. That's the next right thing. It's like what Hannah's mom said, I wish I had been your friend. Yeah.

Meaning like I wish I hadn't been a fixer of you. I wish I had just been a friend to you. So beautiful, y'all. All right. And the thing that she, her mom said, I thought the world wasn't gonna change. So I thought I would have to change you. It's like we get so scared for our children and we bring to them the very fear that we're

afraid that the world will bring to them. We bring it to them. Sister, thank you for that. So good. We'll see you next week on We Can Do Hard Things. Love you guys. Love you. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. I chased desire, I made sure I got one's mind, and I continued to believe that I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I walk the line

Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak So I'm a final destination And I'll stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star. I'm not the problem And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on matter. A final destination with light. We stopped asking directions.

So places they've never been Come to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find a way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives spring We can do hard things This world finished her rose and heart breaks on my mind. We might get lost but we're only in that. Stop asking directions. Some places they've never been

And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

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