We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - HELP: How to Ask for the Help You Need

Episode Date: September 27, 2022

1. Why sharing your messy middle with someone is a gift and connection builder, not a burden. 2. The reasons why we don’t ask for the help we desperately need. 3. “Vague favs” and why are they a hard No for Amanda. 4. Abby, Glennon, and Amanda each share something they need help with right now. 5. The science behind Help as one of the most effective relationship-enhancing tools, and the best ways to finally ask for it.   To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hi. Hello world. Hi, hello world. Today on We Can Do Hard Things, we are talking about help. Help, help sister. Help me run, help, help, help. You're on your own. Help, I need somebody! Help! Allison's going to cut all of this.

I hope she doesn't because I'm trying to launch my career. Tell us about Alice this week. Okay, so this thing happened this week that I was telling, gotten about yesterday because I, it was an insight into myself that my daughter provided. They do that, don't they? They're little mirrors. They do. Yeah.

It's really the most unfortunate part is that you're like, it's right there in front of my face. Um, like when I'm screaming at Bobby, you need to learn to regulate your emotions. Yes. Totally. I used to do it with Tish. Why is she so dramatic? Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. So Alice is currently in this camp. That basically I can only assume was started in the 60s and they just codified the camp manual. And it's just been the same ever since. So it's like friendship bracelets and dodgeball and capture the flag and more friendship bracelets. I don't want that camp. So she is trying to work on this. It was very simple. She's laying on my bed and she's trying

to put these two bracelets together and this is not complicated. She just has to fold the two bracelets together so that they're one. And she is trying and trying. And it's very clear to me that this just like one tiny fold with her hand will solve her problem. And so I'm like, could I just, I just want to, I'm just going to get it there, do it. Like it's impossible for me to watch her do this

and just not be able to do it. And she gives me the death stare of like, I double dare you to help me with this. Like you back off, lady, she wants none of it. And so I have to physically remove myself from the situation because I just can't sit beside her and watch her struggle with this. So I move to a different beside her and watch her. Struggle with this. So I move to a different chair.

Oh my gosh. Okay babe, you just, you know, God speed with that. And she, for like 10 minutes, she's working on this thing. And then after 10 minutes, she goes, Mom, I need help, but I don't want help. Oh my God. And I was like, yes.

Yes, I understand that very well. Because that goes across a third of my entire life, really? Like she wasn't describing what she needed next. It was like she was grappling with this weird human condition. She's like this human condition. Yes. She was just still messing with it and she just needed me to know that she was holding both things. It's true. She understood she in fact needed help, but she also understood that she didn't want it.

And I just thought we should talk about that because I felt very much like that described a lot of my life, where I'm in a situation where I intellectually understand that the help is necessary, but I am not comfortable with the asking or the receiving of it in that instance. And it's interesting because when you told me the story, you told me it like I was gonna totally also relate and understand. Yeah, like I've just solved all of our problems. Yeah, this is the condition we live under. And I was like, I don't get it.

I usually, when we discover, you know, diametrically opposed human truths, which we believe in, right? Holding two things at once. The paradox of humanity. Yes. I always agree. But this one in particular, I feel like I'm always asking for help.

Right? Like that's just I also feel like you're always asking for help. I feel like where your go to would be to dig in and not want to ask for help. My go to is to like immediately ask for help, like before even trying kind of. I mean, yes, the remote, the refrigerator, and God help me with iPhone maps. God help me with, I can't. Maps are hard and phones and mermaids remotes. I mean honey I have sent you videos on how to do it and you sit with me over and over and I try to be patient tutorials and you wait

about how to use the remote. Yeah she cannot and the thing is that Abby does it over and over again like she sits me down and patiently talks me through the moat. But you're not listening, are you? No, here's what I need to tell you about that. Okay, I've thought this through recently. So when you sit me down at the couch and you say, honey, let's talk through this remote thing again. I panic when people talk to me directly. Mostly when people speak to me directly,

when they look me in the eye and try to tell me something, especially when they're trying to help me or something. Outside, I look like I'm paying attention inside. I'm trying to look grateful and present, but I'm panicking. I'm panicking inside. So when you sit me down and say, I'm gonna tell you about this remote again.

I am trying to appear to look as if I'm concentrating and understanding you. That's all. But on the inside of myself, I'm thinking, oh my God, this is the 50th time she's told me this shit. You better look at 10 of in grateful oil. Like, does this look at 10 of in grateful smile? Look as if you are deeply processing new information. And then it's over.

And then she stops. And then it's over. It's like, this is the problem with the map thing. Like, when I ask for directions to someone on the street, like this happened to me like two weeks ago. I had to stop and ask this nice-looking man how to get to the street that was not registered on my stupid- ass phone map.

And this dude gestures in in a in a particular direction and says something about North. Oh, no, no, no, we're not looking for North. No, so I'm looking at him and I'm grateful that he stopped telling me the things on the outside. But on the inside, I'm thinking what? Who the hell am I Lewis Lewis, and fucking Clark, like Amelia Earhart or some shit? Do I look like an astrologer?

You're left or right, buddy. No. But I can't say that because this is kind of him. So on the outside, I'm nodding and yes, yes, saying, and a hind, and I'm trying to look like I've got this now, but no, I do not got this. Now I've got it less than I did when I approached this cartographer. I think probably the reason why he was using the words north and maybe south is because there's the Pacific Ocean. You know, I don't

want to start with oceans, all right? Yeah, but oceans. But we live close to the ocean. See, here she goes again. So now, do I look grateful and like I'm present in New York? And we are. There's only one direction North can be from the context of the ocean and one direction South can be. Right. I get that.

You are also. Okay. I just know you don't. I'm not giving it. What about on a Zoom meeting? Do you know me on Zoom meetings? Oh, yeah. I'm on a Zoom meeting about very important things,

with a lot of very important people. And I never one time think my job on the Zoom meeting is to pay attention and listen to this new information. Okay. I think, God. My job is to appear to be listening and paying close attention. So I'm looking at my own face and I'm thinking, yes, that looks like the face of someone who was calm but concerned and serious, but kind. Look how professional I look.

I was rambling. Yes, and who belongs here, but it's also grateful to be here and is being so supportive with my face of all of the other Zoom square faces. And I look like I'm really taking a new information, but if you ask me at the end of this meeting what the new information is, I would have absolutely no clue. You'll be like, something about North. Anyway, that's the point. I'm going to work on this. I'm just trying to get you to understand what's happening in my body.

I'm not at the fix it part. I'm just telling you, I am panicking on the inside when you talk to me. What about you, sister? Well, I mean, it's gone in a vaguely different direction than I imagine, but I think what we're dealing with here is maybe a more specific issue. Hey, I think on Zoom, you're staring at your face and saying, is this the type of face of a person who is getting this? It's being self-conscious. Yeah, self-conscious. Yeah. I think with the remotes and the directions, I think it's because I too, I can hear two

directions. Go up there, turn left, then take the next right. And then everything after that, I'm just pretending to look gracious because there's your chance I'm getting more than two things right. I think it's probably the same with the remote. I think you probably get the first One and a half steps and then you're like well That's it so Maybe it's an attention thing. I don't know. It's a good thing because I have it

What I like about you and I think is different about us is I think there's like a little bit of shame if you go deeper. There's something shame involved. It's like I should know how to do this thing. Like when Abby hands me the phone and asks me to find something because she's driving. If I could explain to you how upsetting it is to me, I know she needs me to do it. I can't do it. Like I cannot.

I'm not going to, I'm zooming in. I'm like, is this one of those screens where you do your fingers? I'm pushing the little dots and it's not, I mean, it's funny, but it's not funny for me in the moment. I get really upset. And so my go-to is to just, I can't do it and quit. But your go-to is to never quit, to never stop. So I just want to hear about your, because I'm working on, give yourself a second. Like just, I tell Abby sometimes, like, she'll jump in to try to help me with something. I'm like, it takes me a little bit longer than it does with you. If you want me to figure those types of things out, just give me a minute. I need to not be under

immediate pressure. And then I can like give myself a minute between the hand, the panicking and the begging for help. I can try. Yeah, I get that. And I think it is that deeper level because after Alice said that to me, I was thinking I feel the exact same way, but it feels like it's a specific type

of asking for help. Because you and I both Glenn and are incredibly efficient and resourceful in things like, we'll walk into a grocery store. And if we need tomatoes, we will not look for the tomatoes. We will go up to a person and say, can you please point me towards the tomatoes? Because that just makes sense. Why am I going to spend five minutes looking when I can just ask you? So that kind of help. Easy breezy. Love it.

Directions, happy to ask. But I think it's the specific instance, like exactly where Alice was, that I'm particularly allergic to, which is people seeing me needing help. Before I have determined whether I need help, whether I'm going to ask for help, because there's no agency in that moment, right? Like, if I have recognized that I need help and I am

having the agency to ask for the help, then that is a position where I am activated and I am directional. If I'm struggling with something and someone notices that, that emotionally a job no matter what it is. I am allergic to people seeing me struggling. That is so true about you. Yeah. So that's what Alessas thing was. I was witnessing her struggling before she had made the determination

whether she needed help or wanted help. And that is for apparently both of us, the sweet spot of ultimate vulnerability. Well, yes, it's about vulnerability. It's about weakness. Weakness, not like in your perspective being a bad thing. Like, I can't, oh my God, they're seeing me not be able to do this. It's about being true. And I'm not in an active position of being like, okay, so I've done the analysis and I do, in fact, need help. And I'm accessing my resources. And, you know, it's just the like the struggle area. Yeah, it's control too. You said something. You said something earlier that really rang true.

It's becoming self-conscious. Like to become aware of yourself and then sister, what you're saying is like not being able to actually perform or complete or do whatever task is and it's this intense vulnerability of shame or feeling not good enough or you don't have enough agency. Yeah, I'm thinking about so many times, like I'm actually remembering so many times where I feel like in real time you are like overwhelmed or exhausted or whatever it is, which it's so interesting because for me in those moments, I really want someone to be like, what is needed?

But when I say to you, you see me exhausted or what can I do, it's you get mad. Yeah. You actually get mad. Yes. And I see your body change, I see your face change. It's like I've called you out. Like I've noticed something that is causing you shame and you reject.

Yeah, that is correct. It's like you busting in, open the door on someone, and they're naked. And you're like, get the hell out of here, which I never do, because I have no problem being naked, so that's not a good analogy. But if to the average person, that was not vulnerable and it's like that versus, you know, coming out and being like, I need you to bring me some clothes. Yes, but here's the question. Because that's me telling you what I need instead of you noticing what I need. Yes, my head is exploding right now. That feels just so lonely to me too. Because I have

this, we have one kid who I feel like was like this for a really long time. Like this kid would come to us, sit down at the dinner table and say, I want you to know. My person and I broke up. It was three months ago that we broke up. And I went through some hard times. This person lived with us and was our child. Okay.

I went through some hard times and it was ups and downs and I worked through it. I've created a PowerPoint. Yes. So that you understand what's going on with this. And right now, just it's just no further questions. Everything's fine. I'm on the other end. I'm all as well. And and that we just had to okay. All right. But then I felt like, oh, this person thinks that life is something to figure out and control and get, and before you present it to people. But isn't that really lonely?

Because isn't it that time when you're naked in the bathroom or whatever, like, you know, metaphorically, isn't that when you most need people to sit with you before you figured it all out or is that just a way of being that's not universal? It's wild because when you said that I remembered that in my divorce that's exactly what I did. That I did my three best friends. I, we had gone through the, I mean, granted it was fairly swift, but it was a couple months there of deep misery.

And after the couple months was over, I called a summit to my house. And I was like, I'm going to need you, all three of you, to come to my house, because I have something to tell you. And they all came to my house, and I delivered this news that here's what happened. I am getting a divorce. Here are the top level items you need to know about. And that is the story. I'll be taking questions at the end.

Like it was no vulnerability. And there was nothing through it. It was like, it was exactly like you said with your kid. So it was nothing through it. What do you mean by nothing through it? Like it was not, there was no contact about like in the sorrow through it. There was no contact about in the sorrow in it. I now have data to relate to you about the state of the union. It's like this deep need for a human being to need to have

had overcome something in order to share it, the allergicness to true vulnerability. to share it, the allergic-ness to true vulnerability. Yeah, the messy middle. But it's interesting, because you do take help. I think that Glennon, you are more capable of it, which I think is interesting, because you've married me who's always scanning the world for people who need help.

That's right. That's right. It's like, I need to freaking cap to the married. If you're ever going to get a flat tire, if you're ever going to be thirsty, if you're ever gonna need a haircut, just generally be around Debbie. She's gonna do all of those things for you.

But I'm like sister, I like will not. Do you still feel like you're that way? Yeah, I actually used to not be this way. I never took help. I would just quit. So, so like, yeah, before I got sober, that's how I was. I would try things and they wouldn't work out and I would just quit them. Just be like, no, that's just not the thing. And now, since I have been sober, Now, since I have been sober, I like have a relentlessness that I never knew lived inside of me that I just don't ever quit. But you do ask for help now. Yeah, I have like kind of a blend a little bit.

But I wouldn't actually say I ask for help. She procures help. Yeah, that's probably a little bit more of. Yeah, you're so right, you don't ask for help. You just arrange help. Yeah, that's probably a little bit more of. Yeah, you're so right. You don't ask for help. You just arrange help. Yeah, which is an active thing.

That's the difference. It's like, I am in control and know what I need. I'm going to get it. I truly think there is something about that middle place where you need it. And you haven't made a decision as to what you need or even identified that you are struggling. That is the place. All right, so then here's my question about that.

If you never seek other resources when you're in your messy middle. Then the only power, the only choices, the only options, the only resources you are ever depending on is your own what you already know. Yes. That's what's confusing about it. It's like when I used to say,

writing's my therapy and I'm a writer, I write, I'm therapy, I'm therapy because all the time I'm always in therapy. I'm a writer. And then you were like, OK, but the only thing about that is that there's no therapist involved. Yeah. Yeah.

Right? So no, writing is not therapy. I guess what I'm saying is when you are at that beautiful place, which at that breaking point, I think of that point is so luscious and fertile because you come to the end of your own power. And then there's like every other, you have these people in your life, you have people with different perspectives, you have friends, you have God or whatever you're higher powers, you have all of these, you know, metaphorical angels who are like

right there. I picture like right on the edge of waiting for you to break, waiting for you to break, waiting for you to break, and then you break, you're like, I can't do it. I need help. It's like whether you do that outwardly or just inwardly, it's like rush to you. It's how it feels to me. And I know that's my weirdness, but I have felt that over my life. I suppose to the way you two are doing it, which feels like you're in like a conference room by yourself with a bunch of whiteboards in your own brain. Yeah. Yeah. That's correct.

It's like, it's like killing like, well, the board is meeting to solve this problem. Who is present? I am me. I, I second. I second that motion. Well, it's unanimous. This is what we're doing. It's just it's just all ego. I know that that's what has helped me so much in my sobriety is like the killing off of the ego, the ability to say that my life has become unmanageable. Right. That's the first step.

But even that I think that I am moving towards that. But even that, I have determined that my life is admissible. It is not truly, I think that's the difference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The board has met. The board has made an assessment. And the board determines that its own life is unmanageable. Like when you're talking about when I get mad, Glennon, you're like, I have determined that your life is unmanageable. Like when you're talking about when I get mad, Glenin,

you're like, I have determined that your life is unmanageable. Yes. And that is the place where it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. That's a little too close. Yeah, I hear that. I guess maybe if you came to me and said you, well, that's what an intervention is, right?

I mean, many people look up to me over my life and said, you're like, that is a part for the course, right? We believe your life is unmanageable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so here's a question. When are some times? Do you know of any times? Besides me coming to you in a work related thing and saying like this is unmanageable or whatever, what are some times when you have felt someone has caught me in my messy middle and I am not ready for this. Are there times where someone's just reaching out, but it feels like untenable to you because you have not decided yet?

Like, I'm just wondering what are those things that it's touching that I don't have a handle on it, that I could be doing better, that I'm not in control, that someone's worried about me. Like to say that, say more about that because I'm like, someone's worried about me. You just said it with the most disdain. I thought you were worried about me. Exactly. Worry about yourself as whole.

Literally, I'm like moving a box. And John is walking by and I can tell he's like, I could carry that box. I'm like, I'm like moving a box. And John is walking by and I can tell he's like, I could carry that box. I'm like, I got it. I got it. And I'm like carrying the box. I'm like, this huge. If he was to come and just pick up the box

and to I'd be like, thank you. But if you, if someone is watching me struggle either physically or emotionally and witnessing it. I can't handle, I can't handle. But I am thinking of what, like I'm not impervious to this. I remember a time, like when I'm thinking about when I got caught, like kind of called in on something in college when Bonzo, when I was like stealing people's food

all the time and there was no it's all over my house it was like whoever's stealing a food please stop you know I was living with 12 girls and I'm 100% sure everyone knows me but knowing it was the elephant in the room no one talking about it and there was notes where in the pantry please stop stealing everyone's food that was and she sat me down and was like, okay, so it's you. But let's just talk about it. We know it's you.

We have to stop this and what's going on. And I was actually very receptive to that, which is. Really? Yeah. So what was different about it? I mean, Lauren Banzo is such a badass. Who imagine being that direct in college. Okay, yes.

So she sits you down and says, you have a problem. You're stealing all of our food, which PS is a very embarrassing thing because I also have been caught stealing every single of the food. It is stealing and humiliating. So why do you think in that moment? Because that was someone calling you out mid-struggle.

You did not go and say, I have a problem. I keep, I haven't even sorted and I'm stealing everyone's food. Why is that, why is that a thing? I think because I know that she loves me completely. I know that she respects me completely. It isn't like, oh, this poor thing, you know, like I isn't like, oh, this poor thing. You know, like I think the like, oh, poor thing. Situation, I'm severely allergic to.

Knowing that she respects me, knowing that it was just to me, it's not like they call the house meeting and call me out. It was friend to friend. I would never question her face and me in respect for me. It felt like two people, people problem solving together as opposed to,

oh, I pity you, you have a problem. Okay, so it's a power, it's a power dynamic thing too. It's like someone coming to you as an equal, as a problem solver, as opposed to, I am above you seeing that you have a problem. And okay, so like when I come above you seeing that you have a problem. And, okay. So, like, when I come to you, which, I don't know, I haven't done it for a year, so I'm like,

you're not alone. How can I do that better? Because you do so much, and sometimes I feel like it's, I'm worried, or if there are ways that I can help, or what am I, you know, I just, how, what am I doing that's making you just, how, what am I doing that's making you freeze up like a statue that Bonso did better?

Seriously, do you think that I think that you are a workaholic? So when I say it, there's like a fixing or pittying thing involved? Well, I think, I think I probably am a workaholic. So I don't think that's like a news flash probably. I mean, maybe I'm getting better. But I know I think it's because you're so desperate

to help me that you're like, okay, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna hire this person to do this. We're gonna do this thing we're gonna do. And I'm like, oh my God god now it's totally out of control. Help and the conversation of power dynamics is really important. I bet if like I were walking in your house and I saw you struggle and I just like came over and I was like, hey, let me help you with that or whatever you'd be like, okay, but there's a thing about it having a man needing to help you,

a woman, right? I think that there is, because you will never accept help from a dude. Nope. There we go. We found my pride. And so, no. God help me. Yeah.

If I'm on an airplane, planes are freaking nightmare because they're so tall and they made these, they're like made against short people. Okay, so I have to. Yeah, overhead. For letting it over overhead, it's the overhead, like I get on a plane and I think of my first books title, I'm a carry on warrior. I am a carry on warrior. I can do this. I can do this. Okay. So if I am putting that suitcase up in the carry on bin and a man comes over and tries to help me,

I swear to God, I will turn this plane around. If a woman helps me, I am her best friend for the rest of her life, right? Like if a man says sweetheart, calls me sweetheart, I will kill him. If a woman says sweetheart, best friend for life. Yes, power dynamic, right? There's some kind of help power dynamic. It's like some kind of help, is the kind of help that help things all about. But it's interesting because even I would feel, not allergic, but I, for me, I think I can do almost anything,

like really. And that's one of my strengths and also one of my like biggest weaknesses. And so I don't, I will never take help from a dude, like ever. That's right. And I mean, even when I would be playing against, we would have to play against boys and the national team to train.

And I would play so fucking hard. And if anyone fouled one of my teammates, I would two foot tackle that fucker. Because I just did not want them to believe that we were weaker in any way. So I feel like this help conversation is about this like deep underlying, underlying like feeling of weakness

and the relationship between power and gender. Like we put on all these roles as like women and men that then we're just fighting our whole lives against. So is it like we can only accept help from people who we sense believe that we are equals? Yes. We need to sense that the person is coming to us from a place of what you said,

to people who are equals solving a problem together. Mm-hmm. And to people who have consensus over that this is a problem. That's for me. Like, I have to, just from where I sit, be at the place where I'm like, I have a problem. Yes. Before someone can come in and help me with a problem. That's right.

I, it is that place of struggle when I have not decided I need help where someone wants to intervene and help me and that is a threat to me. Okay, so what is something that you need help with? If you had to think of one thing that you need in an area that you feel like you need help it. I can think of 12. That we both need? No, that each of you. Like pod squad, think about what, if you could have help in one area. You can think of 12 for yourself. Yeah.

Oh, I thought you were putting it on us and I was starting to feel vulnerable. No, no, no, I'm not even talking about it. I was like, this is exactly what sister was just talking about. Oh, absolutely not. No. Like what's something that you could use some help in an area of your life? Wow, this is really hard for me.

I think I need help in my house because in just our daily functioning because John travels so much, there's this extra like I'm trying to do work and life when that margin of what he does is gone, operating on such a thin margin of capacity, then it's like whoa, everything's to shit. like, whoa, everything's to shit. And so I think building in more margin in our life through some help so that it isn't always like we're always at a night and a half. So the Chinese little bump will take us to a 12. That would be helpful. Cool. What about you? I'm trying to figure out why this is so embarrassing.

You feel embarrassed? Yeah. Do you want to stop this? No. Okay. Okay. This is something that just kind of came to me, but you know like parental figures that have life experience that I feel like we are in a state of our life

that I don't have somebody else to go to for like life advice. Like what should we do here? How do we plan for the next five or 10 years? How do we raise grownups and how do we be this phase of our lives? But don't have it. Yeah. Yeah. The biggest questions I'm asking right now are like, how do we be this phase of our lives? But don't have it. Yeah, the biggest questions I'm asking right now are like, how do I be a better parent? I don't need tactile help.

I'm really good at doing stuff, but also I'm very good at outsourcing. If we don't have something, or I can't figure something out, I will call somebody that knows better. But wisdom, you're like life wisdom. That's really something that I need help with. Like you need like a grandma.

Yes. Be like, baby, baby, this is what you do. Yes, absolutely. Or like also just don't worry about it. You know, like that is real, that's real help to me. Is somebody who can kind of Take all of whatever worries I have and make them not so big. I feel like I have that You do

When our youngest was little, we'd had this trip, we'd go to the beach. I had this big bag, like a tote bag full of beach stuff, you know, the mom beach bag. And Emma would always say, that's 1,500 snacks in a shovel. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And she would always say, can I help you? Was so sweet, can I help you carry the bag? So she would put one of the handles on her shoulder, but she was like 13 inches shorter than me. So I'd be like, this bitch is not helping at all.

Like, she just made my load heavier. Yeah, it's just like worse because she's pretending to help, but she's all the way down there. I'm carrying it all still, but not to pretend that she's carrying her body as well as the bag. Exactly.

But this is so cheesy, but I think about this all the time because I think everything is so heavy and I'm carrying all of this family work, the world, all these things. And then I just think of whatever my idea of God is. I'm like the little Emma pretending to carry it. But actually none of the weight is really on me. And there's this higher power, which to me is this old lady with gray curly hair.

And I don't know what her face looks like. She just has gray curly hair and a flowy outfit on. And she's really carrying the whole thing. Like I'm not carrying the whole thing. Like, I'm not carrying any of it. It's none of it. Like, think I'm carrying it. I'm not carrying any of it.

God's looking at me like this bitch is complaining. Ha, ha, ha, ha. She's got no weight. She doesn't even know it. That's awesome. It's like the footprints in the sand the other day, Jesus. It's like the It's like the footprints in the sand the other day Jesus. It's like the new meme is the footprints in the sand and the graphic is like,

This bitch, she's scared. Oh, I'm so stressed, this is so hard. And God's like, I've got the whole bag, just walk. I love that. I mean, I think a lot of it has to do too with like being a burden, like thinking that we're a burden on someone. And so I was started thinking about this. And I read this social psychologist Heidi Grant wrote a book called Reinforcements, Harvard Business Review Book, and it's all about, it's all the research on help.

Why we don't ask, why we should ask, what happens when we do all this stuff. I feel like one of the reasons people don't ask for help is that they, we think that people don't want to help us, that we are bothering them or burdening them or whatever. But actually the research shows that our perception is completely wrong about this, that people are twice as likely

to want to help us as we perceive them to be. And also what's wild to me is that people like us more when they've helped us. Yes, that makes sense to me. that people like us more when they've helped us. Yes, that makes sense to me. That's right. Because I'm saying to our kid who comes down to the dinner table and was like, it's done. It's all done. I'm like, oh my God, we just missed all of the stuff that makes us closer.

You skipped over the entire part where we get to know each other better, where we build trust in each other, where we feel more deeply connected, because you think this is some kind of a sufficiency contest. It's like we were about to take a road trip together. And you took a plane. We were like getting packed up. The car packed up for this trip we were going to take, where we were going to see all these sites,

and we were going to talk, and we were going to talk. It was going to be annoying and take a long time, but it was going to be so such a bonding experience. And you called us from Good News Airport, where you just landed and were like, good news. I'm already here. And I was like, okay, that's efficient, but you've just, we've missed the whole trip together. Like that's what we're doing here together to be in those really vulnerable places together

and not have a clue and then somehow get through it together because self-sufficiency is a connection blocker. Yeah, it is such an awesome point and such a powerful analogy of the ride and the flight. The even on like the concrete little things, even like letting your neighbor order pizza for your family when you're sick. The data shows that the helping someone else is one of the quickest, most effective ways that you feel better about yourself.

And so, asking and receiving help from people is most of the most effective ways to make them feel good. And it's like that my Angelo quote of people won't remember what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. When you allow someone to help you, they feel good. And then they associate that good feeling with you.

Yes, because you feel powerful and you feel important and you feel necessary to that other person. It's one thing to feel like someone's impressive. Like you, like, oh, wow, good job. Impressive, but that's different from feeling connected and needed. Like when my kids sit down and says it's done, I'm like, oh, they didn't meet me at all.

I'm not necessary at all here. What's the point? Yes, the necessary thing is beautiful. I was listening to a TED talk that this former kindergarten teacher, Miss Kim, gave about, it was all about what we have to learn from kids about asking for help. And she was talking about how as a first-time teacher, she was just waiting for the moment, like, when a kid, a kindergartener falls, and they get hurt. They don't start crying.

They look up and scan for a person they can trust. And if they find them and lock eyes with them, then they start crying. They will cry until they have locked eyes with someone that they trust. And she said she kept seeing it happen with other teachers and she was waiting for the moment where it happened for her and this little kid in her class, Sam, who was always so self-sufficient,

he wouldn't accept help in any way. And he fell down and he locked eyes with her and he burst out crying and she was like, I am valued and needed. And you have just proven that I'm trustworthy to me by allowing yourself to crumble in front of me. That's it. I wonder if part of his consciousness, I'm just like still on the power part of it. Like, if he's like super efficient, he's like the go getter in the class,

he's like, I only trust the teacher here. You know? All the other assholes. Like that power differential. Yeah. In a marriage, in a business partnership with all of us, it's like, how do we cut through here? Like how do we, how do you and I, Glatton?

I mean, I would be so honored if, and I don't know you all witness a lot of my moments, I think of my middle parts where I haven't figured it all out, but I would love to get a message from, and I feel like you do it now. to get a message from, I feel like you don't, you do it now. And from a message from the middle, this is what we're calling this year. Like, that's like, I'm fucked. Those moments where you're just like, I haven't figured it all out yet. I'm just feeling lost or I'm feeling unmanageable or I'm whatever. I just those moments, a message from those moments I think would be interesting.

And I also will promise to not try to figure anything out, just to be like here with you. Yeah. I wonder if something practical, because I think we all, at least being for myself have to wait it because it's hard for everyone everyone struggling everyone like work family everything everyone's a mess right yeah we're almost like making a judgment call that ours has reached a higher level than yours that's for help and since everyone's drowning it feels somehow like cutting in line to say, yeah, but that's not it. It's not. I know.

Okay. I know that's not it. I'm just saying that I feel got it right. Yeah. And so I think a practical application of this might be in your friend groups, in our even in our work situation, which is like a friend and work thing,

to like every week, you actually have to bring one thing you're struggling with. Or you actually have to bring one thing that if you were to get help on, it would be this thing. Because it also goes to this other part of the research, which is this thing called the illusion of transparency, where we don't notice other people's need as much as they think we do. It's called the illusion of transparency, the research shows, and it's the tendency for people to don't notice other people's need as much as they think we do. It's called the illusion of transparency, the research shows, and it's the tendency for people to overestimate the degree to which their personal mental state

is known by others and a tendency for people to overstate how well they understand others personal mental state. So we are operating, this is universally true. We are operating in a world in which we think other people understand where we are, and they think they understand where we are, and we are both wrong. Yes. So this is where it comes from of like that idea of like why aren't people Helping me they see I'm struggling and no they don't

Like they literally don't we have to use our words because everyone thinks they're they know where up someone else is And everyone thinks someone else knows where they are and no one does. Yeah, okay All right, so then two things then, we need to report accurately from your own mouth. Yeah. From your own mouth with someone, right? Or like even to self might be good, like even in real first, yeah. Right. Report to self what you need or to another what you need.

Not even what you need. Maybe you don't know what you need, but like what you're struggling with. Right. And then. It's not happening. And then believing if you share it with someone that it's a gift, not a burden. That's right.

Because we're not saying you go to your friend, he's also dripping with children and say, I need someone to cook me dinner five days a week. You're just saying I'm struggling. And then that other person, you think you shouldn't bring it to your friend because your friend is also struggling. And then you're just adding another burden to your friend. But actually your friend more than anything,

you need somebody else to say, I, that's why people love this podcast. Yeah. Let's work. We're just sucking mess. We're a cry for help. Like we're winked twice, pods squad if you really. Yeah, exactly. I feel like generally the pod squad doesn't feel like this is a burden when we talk about things like this. It feels like a gift because

people feel less alone and that lessons are struggle just the knowing. Yes, that we're not alone. And it might give somebody the ability to help who has some extra time. Which could be something that's really good for them in a life full of chaos and uncontrollables. I also think there's that, you know how they always say,

check on your strong friends. I think that also in this book that I read about this thing called the diffusion of responsibility, which is the more people that can help you. So the wider your network, your support system seems to be the least likely, it is that anyone will help you. Oh, this is like the phenomenon of too many books in the kitchen. It's a phenomenon about how when children are swimming, the more adults that are watching, the more likely they'll be an accident. More drought.

Because if no, if everyone's in charge, no one's in charge. Right. It's in charge. Right. It's, yeah. So if you, if you're somebody who appears to have a lot of people who could help you, it's even more important that you ask for help because data shows that you are the least likely anyone is going to ever intervene on. You need to actually directly ask, which is

odd, right? Yeah. We're talking about this whole like interpersonal struggle with help, but then there's this actual bucket. If you need practical help for your, whatever you're doing, there are these three things that are the ways you will actually get help. So this isn't like, I'm struggling and I need to get sober. I, my family is falling apart or whatever, but practical, three practical things if you actually need tangible concrete help. One, I'm calling say no to the vague faith. Vag, faith, okay? Yeah. So this is this idea of when someone writes you and they're like, yeah, we should get coffee.

Oh, God. Or I'd like to pick your brain. No. Or can we connect? These are hard notes. What? They are bad for you. They don't, like, people do not, they want to know what they're being asked

and they want you to be specific and they are demotivated when they don't understand the impact. So you need to say, I want to ask of you X and if you do, it will result in Y. Okay. That's what you do. Also, this is terrible news. Number two is you have to do it over the phone or in person. What? Because yes, you are 34 more times likely to get help if you ask over the phone or in person, then you are, if you write an email, 34 times. It takes 200 emails to reach the same success rate

as six in-person requests. You're kidding me. Okay, but that's a boundary thing. We just call people. Well, this show up at their house? Well, no, I'm talking about if you're in a situation where you are having the grand opening of your business, you send out a mass email to everyone on your list.

You have to do that to 200 people or you get on the phone and you say, hey, I know you're busy. I've been working really hard on this, and it would mean so much to me if you would come to my grand opening. And I'd celebrate your know as much as I celebrate your yes, I just want you to know that having you there wouldn't mean a lot to me. Yeah, that's cool.

I like to celebrate your know as much as you yes. We always do that, Cicci. Yes, we always do that. You can tell women we that on your. We always do that because it's true. We will honor your know because that's equally that us. And then we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor.

And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor.

And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor.

And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. And we'll talk about honor. idea of like diffusion of responsibility. If you know you're in a mass email list, that's not think it is important that you are there. You just think it's important that some people are there. And we think they've got it covered. Look, they have this huge network. It actually doesn't matter if about me. Totally. But if someone says you matter, This is why you matter. Here's what your impact will be at me. Suddenly, again, the greatest, quickest way for me to feel good about myself is help someone. You mean I can help someone?

Right. What I just want to emphasize there is I don't think it's about the phone call. I think it's about the personalization. So whatever that means, because for example, if someone called me, I would be like this person doesn't know who I am. They don't respect any of my boundaries.

They know they don't care that I hate the phone. So I don't think it's about the phone. I think it's what I think that study is saying what's beneath what's underneath the thing is it's the personalization. That's telling that your particular help matters. You're also a writer. You prefer to write. OK, so personalization, say no to the vague, save, make it personal.

Yes. And then also, I feel like some people try to think that if you do this for me, I'll do this for you, that that's like an evening that's making it less of a burden. And like, but the study showed that that, when you make it in exchange, like, if you do this, I'd love to, I don't know, what do people like to do? Take you to lunch. I'd

love to, I will do it for you, whatever it is, that it actually diminishes. You making an offer connected to your request diminishes the likelihood they will do it for you. Because again, people want to be able to feel effective and helpful. They don't want whatever it is that you are willing to give. That's interesting. So that's what's quid pro quo. Yeah, it feels icky is the way that,

the only way that I can describe that one. If somebody says, I really need you to do this. It feels like my best self could step up to that. But if somebody says to me, if you do this, I will post your whatever, if I do this, if you do this, I will, it feels like my worst self is being invited forward. Like I'm trying to get something instead of give something. Well, some manipulation. Which makes me feel not so good. It's an manipulation. Right. And if you do need something, you would rather have it be like, I helped you. Now I know in the future, since we have a relationship that's now built on this, since I now, the data shows feel closer to you, since I've helped you,

I will then organically reach out to you if I need something because I feel closer to you. Yes. Because I did this for you, Not because I did this for you. I want to do this for me. It's just a relationship. So I think they're all helpful things on helps, but just this wasn't in the research, but I just think anecdotally, there's also this boy who cried help phenomenon, where I do feel like I have certain people in my life that if they say, I need your help,

I will quite literally drop everything and be like, this is a first class emergency. I will do anything right now. And then I have some people in my life that say I need help, I'm like, give it 20 minutes. Yes. It's not gonna be a thing. So I do feel in all this effort to

Ask for help. It's like concentrated family time. It's like vital for health enjoyed But it should be used sparingly like when you actually Need it. Yeah. Yeah, that's why I like the idea of God Why do you like the idea of God? Because tell us again, because the reason I like the idea of God is because I don't to worry about that. Like I can say help 49,000 times a day and do. I am with Liz Gilbert about, you know, she talked about on her episode about how every minute she's just like, I can't do this. Can you do it? I can't do this. Can you do it? To God. God. Yeah. Like, I can't do this meeting. I can't do this phone call. I can't order pizza directly. Can you just do everything all day? And then, and then you can just, it, you never run out of helps.

So many helps. God is forever helps. You're making sure to try that with the remote Glenin. Have you tried that? God's help with the remote? God's like, bitch. I'll figure out that remote for God's sake, for myself's sake.

Okay, love, bugs. What's gonna be our next great thing here? I think that it would be cool for all pods waters just to think about if... What they need help with? Yeah, like what area of their life are they in the messy middle of? That they haven't figured out what's needed

but they just know that something is help wise. Two parts figure out what you need help with and maybe share it with one person. Yeah, or maybe they could share it with us. They could call us. Yeah. Because wouldn't it be cool if we had like category, what if everybody says the exact same thing?

I just do. I want to know what the pod squad feels in the messy middle of, like what they need the most help with. Yes. Right. So call us 7 747-253-0747-200-5307. Yeah, wouldn't it be cool if everybody told us what they needed help with,

and then we could somehow make a whole help in cyclopedia? Okay, we love you, Pod Squad. Thanks for helping us through this really freaking weird, hard life. We love you so much. We love you. See you next time. Bye! I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlyle. Fire I came out the other side I chased is I here I made sure I got once mine

And I continued to believe that I'm the one for me and because I'm mine I want the line The frozen heart breaks on map A final destination That will stop asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do our things I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart

And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine time but I'm finally fine cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that a final destination with light we stopped asking directions so places they've never been.

To be loved we need to be known. We'll finally find a way back home. And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do our thing This perfect, frozen heart breaks on my way Mike lost, but we're only in that Stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be loved

We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really

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