We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How Abby Survived Her Biggest Loss

Episode Date: August 27, 2024

340. How Abby Survived Her Biggest Loss  Abby shares an intimate account of the loss of her eldest brother, Peter, at the end of 2023. She describes the emotional turmoil she’s experienced and how she’s coping with her family's grief, the planning of the service, and the overwhelming mix of emotions she continues to feel surrounding grief and death. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today, Abby is brave and generous enough to share with us what happened to her and her family at the end of last year, which was maybe the hardest thing that's ever happened to her. I don't know. We'll see. We'll see how she frames it. But you, Pod Squad, are invited into a very beautiful space today. We're going to talk about loss and love and grief. To be fair, that's kind of always what we're talking about, but we're diving deep today. Abby's gonna tell us the story.

Let me just set the scene. Great. December 27th, 2023, you and me and the kids landed for our family vacation a couple days after Christmas. We landed in a far away place. We woke up the next morning. We went to breakfast. Would you like to take it from there? Sure. Often when we travel with the kiddos, they like to sleep in. So Glennon and I woke up and we went down to breakfast ourselves to drink some coffee and, you know, explore a little. We sat at the little restaurant and we had a cup of coffee and Glennon

said to me, I don't think we're supposed to be here. And I was like, the fuck is she talking about? Because I, you're like information that would have been helpful before we bought five very expensive flights. Yes. And also the kind of planning that goes into, and the time it takes to plan for a family vacation, it's endless. And it's like always ever changing because everybody has opinions, et cetera.

And so when she said this, my feelings got hurt a little bit because I was like, oh my gosh, like I put so much, I thought we were gonna have to get on a plane and get out of there, right? Like this is what happens at times in our life that Glenn has moments where she wants to go home or it doesn't feel right, whatever. It's not just want to go home.

It's an intense feeling of this doesn't feel right. I feel wrong right now. I feel panicky. It's not just like, I don't like it. No, right, right, right. Right. But you could understand how others who are sitting across from you after thousands of hours and dollars and planning it

would interpret that as she doesn't want to be here, she wants to go home. Because they're not feeling the intensity of that. But I understand that for you it's like a dramatic- It wasn't I don't want to be here. It wasn't I don't want to be here. It was holy shit I feel like we're not supposed to be here. Right. And P.S. it took us like 20 hours to travel to this place. So I just said, I think I said, well, we're here and we're going to make the very best of this trip. Like I wasn't entertaining any ideas of any other options. So about an hour later, the kids show up.

And so we all go through the buffet and we're eating. And towards the end of our little breakfast session, my phone rings and my sister Beth, who knew that I was on vacation, would only call if there was an emergency. And so immediately like my heart dropped and I showed Glenn in the phone and she looked at me with this look

and she said, you have to take it. So I stood up and I showed Glenn in the phone and she looked at me with this look and she said, you have to take it. So I stood up and I walked away because I knew something was wrong. I didn't know what exactly. Did you have a thought about what you thought it might be? Yeah, I thought it was either my mom or dad. I thought my mom or dad, I mean, to be fair, every single time my mom calls my phone now,

I think something has happened. Yeah, yeah. And this is before this specific moment. So I walk a few steps and I said, what's wrong? That was my first thing I said to her. And she said, Abby, it's bad. And I was like, what happened? And she said, Peter Jr., my oldest brother, died.

said, Peter Jr., my oldest brother, died. And it was like, wait, what? You know, like I was expecting it to be my mom or my dad. And immediately like my body kind of went numb and I went into, which is such a weird thing in retrospect, what happened? Like I needed to understand what happened so desperately, as if that mechanism of understanding would make me feel better in some way.

Yeah, yeah. But now in retrospect, I think that that's just kind of silly that we need to understand and know so much, but like the truth is the truth and he's gone. Yeah. And also I want to say here there's a lot of people involved like his kids and his family that I don't want to compromise them so I want people to understand that this is my experience through this process. I do not speak for anybody else and I will try to make sure that their privacy is protected here too. Yeah, so I just want to say that. And to me, Peter was like,

it's hard to even get used to using the past tense in a way. But he was like, I think that he was like the most generous of our family. Like he gave so much of himself. You know, he was like the one in our family. And unfortunately, I think this was a role that he like, was really proud of and probably couldn't stand at the same time. He was the one in our family that would go to my parents' house and like weed still when he's 50, you know?

He was 52 when he died. He would go clean the pool. He painted the pool during the pandemic. And he just like always showed up for people, for people in his family. I remember after I got a DUI, like seven days after I got the DUI, I had to go on like this 10-day speaking tour around the United States to college campuses. And I was mortified. And I thought, how the heck am I going to pull this off? Like, what the hell

do I have to teach to these kids? Lo and behold, it was actually really important for me to do that. But the first stop that I went to, my brother, Peter, and my sister Laura showed up. And at the time when I felt so embarrassed and like I scarred the Wambach name, it meant a lot to me that he was there. So anyways, he was just that guy.

When I got the call from Beth, I could hear, and I don't know if this was this specific call, but I remember when I spoke, I could hear my mom screaming in the background. And it was like, it was like this kind of, it was a primal, motherly expression of pain. And it's a weird, like, shock for sure is what I was going through because I couldn't

catch up with my thoughts, couldn't catch up with my breath. You know, so many things were swirling through my head. First of all, like the kids, are they going to be okay? And Glennon was amazing because she knew that something happened and she didn't understand quite what it was yet. So she walked over while, you know, keeping the kids away so that we can gather the information so that we know what to tell them. And I was able to kind of tell her. And so she was able to digest that information with them until I got off the phone. And then we just went to this other table and I think I just wept. I just like, I just cried so hard. And it was so sweet because our youngest daughter, Emma, she's just like the most empathetic, I think, of all of us.

the most empathetic, I think, of all of us. And I think she was crying as hard as I was. Like on behalf of me, it felt so sweet and comforting because going through something like that, it's so personal and it's so individual and you feel very contained inside of your own sadness and it's like all yours, nobody else's. And Emma had this ridiculous presence to know that I was feeling that way. And so her show of emotion was like such, I just kept looking at her like, so grateful.

A, that she could express herself that way. You know, like this is, you know, 10 year old Emma was like, I don't know where my feelings are. And now like she's, you know, this 16 year old kid who's got you know a real good grasp on on where her emotions are now which is so beautiful and just sitting there talking about Peter with my kids and with Glennon and

and then you know we're 7,000 miles away from Rochester, New York, which is where my brother lived and my family lives. And so I'm going into like kind of, I'm feeling very panicked, like I need to be there. I need to be with all of the people in my life that knew him and that, and I want to be close to everyone. And so that was really hard. And also it was really hard to try to figure out how to get there.

You know we were on an island and flights are not that easy to get out of there. So it was kind of a complication and thank God for you sister and Dina who is working with us and helped us get back to Los Angeles so that I could get to Rochester. The next like 24 hours until we could get on that flight were unfortunately riddled with a lot of logistical nightmares, you know, hotel stuff and flight stuff. And sister, we've talked about this before in terms of your diagnosis and how you kind of know like, oh, I'm going to deal with this at some point. I'm not ready to deal with this all right the second. There's much to do, right? We've got to help plan his services and I've got to make arrangements to get there. And

you know, like there's so many things that have to kind of happen in order for for the funeral services to go off. I mean the amount that I had to learn about you know funerals and death and all of that and what happens in the time of grief is so hard and it's so confusing and nobody really wants to do that work beforehand, understandably. And so you're dealing with learning this stuff and you're also trying to figure out what he would have wanted. I mean, he died so early that he didn't have, you know, a structured will or anything in

place to know what his wishes were. And so that's complicated. It's complicated because he's got three kids and he's got this big family that he came from and everybody has opinions and trying to kind of manage all of that is I think what I inserted myself into this situation as a bit of like a, you know, somebody who could talk to everybody and

kind of say, here's what I'm hearing everybody say. And, you know, it was just the most, it's like this earth shattering. The way that you think about yourself now has to be altered now has to be altered in some ways. Like I am the youngest of seven. Yes, that's true. And it still to this day catches me trying to figure out how to talk about like, do I say that I have six living and I'm one of seven, but only six are living? I feel like it's confusing to kind of reorient your brain structure around your, even just like the number of people that are in your family. It's confusing. And that like disorients so much.

And so that first day, you know, I sent Glennon with the kids to go do something outside and I just needed to be alone calling my brothers and sisters, talking to my mom and my dad. And you know, like, he was the oldest boy. So the way that our family works is there's two girls, and then my parents had four boys and then me. So Peter was the oldest boy. And of course, you know, in the 80s and 90s, like the oldest boy, Catholic Irish family, he holds an important place in the family dynamic. He's kind of like, I would say he was like a second father. He worked at my dad's store and often throughout college, like if I needed money, I would call the store and he'd pick up and he'd say, Wambach Farms, how we doing? And I'd be like, Pete, I need some money. Can you put some money in my account?

How we doing? We're doing poor. We're really poor. Exactly. And he'd say, how much do you need? And so he really did take care of a lot of us, not just me. He showed up for us in lots of ways.

And so it was just like, I don't know, it didn't make sense to me. I don't understand. Your parents are supposed to die first. How can this fucking be possible? And I know that it's possible, but how can this be possibly happening to me. Hi Pod Squad. I want to tell you about another podcast that you're gonna love if you're not already listening to it. I recently was a guest on 10% Happier with Dan Harris. If you haven't listened, it's the episode from July 8th. Go find it.

We talked about grief, addiction, love, just like really got into the depths of it. And I really appreciated Dan for wanting to take me there and being able to take me there. The 10% Happier podcast has one guiding philosophy. Happiness is a skill. So why not learn it? 10% Happier is hosted by Dan Harris, a journalist who had a panic attack on live national television. That event sparked the toughest and most rewarding assignment of his career.

How can we do life better? He's still investigating that question and he'd love you to come along for the ride. Every Monday and Wednesday, Dan asks world-class guests for practical approaches to everything from anxiety to boundaries, from time management to psychedelics. His guests have included Brene Brown, Lindsay C. Gibson, Nedra Glover-Tawab, Pema Shadrone, Rue Paul, and Dua Lipa.

And of course, me. Oh, and Glennon was a guest on the podcast too. So check it out. We love you, Dan. You can think of listening to 10% Happier as a workout for your mind. Find 10% Happier wherever you listen to podcasts. listen to podcasts. So the next day we get on a flight and we fly back to Los Angeles.

I have to get different clothing to go to Rochester. Couple days later, we get on a flight and we go to Rochester and sister, you and Glennon's mom flew up to be there with us and that was really really really sweet and I remember never having been so nervous and I was so afraid to go to my mom's and dad's house that first time and I was so, like everything in my body knew that I needed to be there. But I was afraid because then it would be real. At this point, everything was just kind of in my head.

Honestly, I don't think I've ever been in Rochester at my parents' house without seeing my brother there. And so this reality of what has really transpired was going to truly hit. And I walked in and it was just like lots of tears. And interestingly enough, during this time, I don't know why this is, and I don't know if this is like universal,

but everybody was telling the story of how they found out. And I find that to be like so interesting. And it was interesting to me too. I was interested to know everybody's story because now this is a before and after moment. Yeah. And I do think when stuff like this happens, it's like really important to like mark

and put like a flag in the ground and say okay yeah things will be different now it's like even though it's really sad it's also really beautiful we all unfortunately move on without him and we will and it's like this moment where we get to it's a touch tree that we get to always I will never forget some of the conversations and the beautiful things that were said about my brother. Some of the most beautiful things

that people did or said to me. The stories, one of my friends, Kelly, from high school, she had lost her mom a couple of years ago and she texted me this beautiful text and she said, oftentimes after my mom died, people didn't know what to text me and they would text me things that, I don't know, didn't make sense or it was just like the cliche stuff

that you anticipate hearing. And she said, the best and most effective things that I found to be helpful to me and to steer me through the grief of it were when people would tell me beautiful stories about my mom. And so then she went on to tell this beautiful story about my brother.

And it was like, okay, right. That's right. And so there was like all of these moments, like horrifically sad, seeing my dad choked up and seeing my mom devastated. And like knowing as a parent, knowing that that devastation is so real for them. And that even though he was 52, he's still their kid. And I know that our kids will grow and hopefully we die before them. But of course, you put yourself in, I put myself in my parents shoes and I just worried about their health, you know, like how are they going to deal with

this? And honestly, like Peter did so much for them that a real worry of all of us was like, who's going to do all the shit that Peter did now? Who's going to do it? all the shit that Peter did now. And so we go through the memorial service and the celebration of life after and it was really beautiful. Peter was always the one in our family that like stood up at weddings and did the speeches and I remember when I was talking to his wife, Carol, about this, she's just like, well, obviously,

like, I think that you need to do this. The eulogy? Yeah, at his funeral. And of course I said yes, but I was so nervous because I didn't think that there was going to be anything that I could say or think of saying that would do him real justice because I don't know. It's like when you have such a big family like I do, everybody has their roles and everybody thinks about each person in that role forever. And I don't know, Peter was just actually like so nice. He was like the nicest one of us. I mean, Andy's also really nice. So I think that the two of them are like the

nicest one of us. And it's just so unfair. So I just was so nervous. I was so worried about what I would say in the eulogy. And you know, I talked to his kids and I talked to my mom about their favorite stories and things they hope that they could hear in the eulogy. And thank God Glennon helped me write it. And I remember that morning just being real shaky. I was real shaky and I wanted it to be really good. And I don't remember much of the service because I was so freaked out about having to do this eulogy. And in the Catholic church where his funeral was, they have very strict rules on the timing of the eulogy.

So I was stressing about the timing and I have been, I have heard that the priests will literally like shut the microphone off if you go over time. Not on Abbe Wambach in Rochester. Yeah. Exactly. You got to waiver. But yeah, it's like on the Emmys or whatever the Oscars where they start playing the music and they're like, that'll be that. That's right. I was afraid that I was gonna get, you know, the music to go. But the whole town was there.

It was incredible. It was a beautiful, big Catholic church. That's where we went to grade school. And when we walked in with the family last, I could not believe it was packed to the brim, standing room only, just this man was so beloved in the community. It was just like a fixture.

Yeah. Yeah. And like, you know, I like to think that our kids look up to us and I know that they do and I also know that my brother's three boys, you know, 22, 20, 16 years old, you know that their life is forever changed and they will likely have beautiful lives, all of them, but this will forever change their life and all of the things that I know that Peter and Carol worked so hard for these boys. You know, they're huge sports kids, athletes playing sports in college. And the time that Peter and Carol spent driving these boys around the Northeast for all their

sporting events, I just felt like Peter didn't do it because he wanted to like, witness them play college sports. That's not why he did it. He did it because his kids loved it. And he wanted to give his kids great experiences. And if they played in college, wonderful That's not why he did it. He did it because his kids loved it and he wanted to give his kids great experiences and if they played in college wonderful if not great but his middle kid plays lacrosse and it was a big deal. He was a really great lacrosse player and Pete would miss him playing lacrosse in college for D1 program and I just know he would have loved it. You know, I know that he would have really loved it. Just, he's going to miss.

That's what I, of course I'm sad for the people who have to miss him and survive beyond him, but like I keep thinking about him and how sad I am for him because he really loved having a good time. He really did. Like he always wanted to have fun. And I learned that. Like I learned it from him. I mean, the night before he died, it was Christmas dinner, he was... So the way that my mom does like Christmas night dinner is like everybody comes over and there's 45 people there.

And so the kids usually eat in a different room and the adults eat in like the main dining room area with the dining room table. And usually the adults sit around and they just chit chat for a couple hours. I mean, it's just like the way that it happens. And so Pete, you know, in Pete fashion, went and picked each kid one-on-one

and had each kid come and sit at the head of the table, called it the hot seat and just asked each kid in our family the most embarrassing questions in front of all the other adults. You know like kids in college that are he's like so are you dating anybody like who are you dating what are their names are you drinking what are you like all of these? What are you drinking? What are their names? Yeah, you have any extra. Yeah, I Got off track we can go back to the eulogy part but Peter was just like I just wanted to do him right by the eulogy and I

Think that I did it was the most beautiful eulogy I've ever heard Absolutely perfect. And I don't know, like, it's kind of like a blur. And then you go to like the celebration of life after. And it's kind of traumatic, to be honest, for people who are in the grief of it all. There is a beauty. I've talked to Glennon a lot about this,

that like, I think everybody knows that I have real issues with religion and specifically the Catholic Church, how I was raised. And I remember sitting in that church thinking, this is good. This is a good thing that they do. Because it's this ritual that gives you this container for all of the people and all of our energy and all of our sadness to be in the same place to mourn this person that we loved. Everybody's allowed to be sad and even angry.

I felt so much anger around this experience. That was really interesting for me. I didn't know that anger would be part of my process, but it was. Was it later? Was it all throughout? And like when did you notice it? And how? It would pop up every once in a while because what happens is, and what was happening for me at least, is in my search a need to understand, I started to create judgments around things that I believed were what happened or why things happened the way they happened. And then that puts me in a position of, I don't know if other people do this, but in a big family,

there's always this comparison thing happening. Like, oh, I'm healthy. There's just this way that- Differentiation. Yeah, like my sister, Beth, she's 11 years older than me. And for whatever reason, as I age, a thought bubble happens in my body that's like, well, I'm always going to be 11 years younger

than my sister, Beth, and that makes me feel good. Sorry, Beth, I know you're listening to this, but it does make me feel good. As I'm sure when she was 11, she was probably looking at me going, oh my God, I'm so glad I'm 11. You know what I mean? So I don't even know I'm going down on this standard.

I know what you're saying. It's profound. The anger is safer than the grief. So the anger comes from the judgments you're making. It's so powerless. Death. So you create power in your head by saying, this wouldn't have happened if he would have done this or she would have done this. And then that judgment

about what happens turns into anger, which is easier to deal with than the powerlessness and grief. That's right. That's exactly what you said in the episode about my diagnosis where you're like, I've come to understand that Glennon, the judgment is fear. It's coming out that way. But like, so that's what you were doing in the- That's exactly right. So we get through the funeral service and we do the celebration of life and it's just exhausting.

It's just actually so exhausting. And my mom was having a dinner at her house that night that anybody could come to. I think one of the things that my mom is good at is hosting things so as to not deal with what's going on. And I actually, I wasn't judging her about that. I understood, I was like, good job. You're doing good things.

As far as defense mechanisms go, that's a really kind one. Yeah, totally. Very useful to the collective. Totally. And so we got to my parents' house and honestly, I felt terrible. It's like when the thing finally finishes and now I had this like feeling of doom. Like, oh, now I've got to deal with this shit. Yes. So two of my national team friends showed up to my brother's funeral, which blew me away

to begin with. It was so, so awesome that they showed up like that. And they came to my mom and dad's house for this post-celebration dinner. And I looked at all of you, you two, Amanda and Glen. And I was like, you guys, I have to go back to the hotel and go to sleep. And you were like, let's go.

And so I had to then tell my mom that I needed to leave. And that was like one of the hardest things I've ever had to do because that's something that we don't do in our family. We just like suck it up and just do what everybody's doing, especially in those big moments. But I couldn't do that and take care of myself at the same time.

I had exhausted, you know, we flew all across the world to get there planning and all of the things that went into that specific day. And then the emotion of dealing with it, you know, like of dealing with what was actually happening. And so I told her, and I could tell she was a little disappointed that I was leaving, but I just could not be, I couldn't be around people. That was like an important,

I don't know why it was so important to me, but it was like I needed to do this thing for myself that I knew that I needed to do. And, and so I did it, which felt good. And so like, the next couple days are kind of a blur because I get home, we fly back to LA, and I think my body like shuts down. Do you remember this? Oh yeah, I do.

I'm not the kind of person, I do like a siesta, a nap. Like we've discussed this before. Somewhere in between the hours of two and five, sometimes it's three to five, sometimes it's two to four, you know. But I like got back and I got into bed after the morning, after the coffee morning thing, I got back into bed and I stayed in bed all day. And I did this for like three days. And I just watched TV,

laid on my bed, slept. I just was so sad. I was so, so sad. I was so, so sad. And I don't have a lot of ability to handle sadness. So when it stays for a few days, three days, I am like, fuck this sadness. I need to start doing something. So getting back into like, you know, the life that we live, work, working out, all that stuff. But it was such a slog. Like, I hated it. I hated having to do everything. I hated having to drive our kids places. I hated having to like create this new reality without Peter. And so that's when I talked to Glennon and I was like, look, I really need to get into some intensive therapy here

because I don't want to hate my life. And I don't want to lose this opportunity to really grapple with some of this grief, because this is the first real big grief that I had dealt with since getting sober. And what I didn't know would happen is that grief is an interesting, it's like a train where each car is like a different grief of your life. And to me, now being sober, I didn't realize that I was also now going to have to kind of wade through all of

the other griefs of my life that I was avoiding and that I never dealt with. Oh shit. So like if you really face the one it opens the door to all the rooms. There's opportunity for me there. So like if there if you can imagine a train I like got on that first train car and I walked all the way back to the train and then I was like, oh shit, here's another door. Because so much of what was happening to me in the grief felt so familiar, but I couldn't like place it. So I got into intensive therapy and I learned a lot of really valuable things in there. And this is ironic, I think,

because what was it, like a year ago now that we had Suzanne Stabele on? Yeah, she told you it was coming, man. Suzanne Stabele, I love you and also, God damn it. This shadow side work that you wanted me to attend to, that I did attend to. Y'all should have just fired that dog walker, like she told you, you could have avoided all of this. Well, she said that in listening to and knowing you

and then knowing your Enneagram number also, that you embrace the lightness of life and fun and that you tend to push away this sadness. The shadow side. Right, so she said your work would be embracing the shadow side. Yeah, and so I was like, all right, I'll do that. I get a therapist, talking with my therapist. And then like was like, all right, I'll do that. I get a therapist talking with my therapist.

And then like, lo and behold, the last 12 months of my life have been very shadow centric. So Suzanne, I'm working on it. Nair, as ray of sunshine to be seen. I'm working on it. I'm working on it. And I'm working on it. Tell her what your therapist told you

about the portal of grief. Yeah, one of the things that was really very interesting to me that my therapist said that I think about even now, because I still feel like I'm in it on some level, is that when some big event like this happens, there's like this portal that opens up for you that gives you greater access to A,

getting rid of shit in your life that you don't wanna get rid of, and B, and this is the thing that might sound a little bit woo woo, but I believe in it, that like, it cracks you open to your own mortality that allows you to make certain life decisions and organize your life in certain ways so that you can live a more fulfilling life and a more intentional life and that that portal is open for a time.

Because us average person walking around the world, we cannot stand for that portal to be open for very long. It's- The window of time that will close. You make your dramatic changes then, because later you'll convince when the portal closes, you'll convince yourself that everything's fine again. That's right. That's exactly right.

And that to me felt like, oh, that's interesting. This is an interesting time. And this is a life-changing time. And what in this time am I meant to learn? That's all I keep asking myself. What are all of these things showing up? What is this grief meant to teach me? And that's what I've been in pursuit of ever since

December 27th, when I found out, is trying to figure out, like Liz Gilbert would say, what this earth school is teaching us and what I'm supposed to be learning from this. Not that there is a lesson in it, but I do think that experiences in our life happen, especially tragic ones.

Tragedy strikes all of us in certain ways. And whether it's a heartbreak or, you know, a diagnosis or losing somebody, whatever it might be, the way that I like to feel like I have more, not control, but I have more, that I have gained more of myself or I'm learning more of myself is if I do feel like there's something to gain in all of this messiness. Because it is messy. Nothing is black and white. Like it's just, it's confusing and it's horrifying in some ways. And I was going through a really terrible time because I was dealing with grief from when I was a little kid, grief from when I was a young adult, grief from all of the drinking years, the heartbreaks that I was experiencing that I couldn't find words to manage through it or I didn't have therapists to help me work through some of that stuff. So all of

this stuff was really coming up for me. And what a cool thing. What a cool way to think about this portal opening up as like a gift. Like I kind of envisioned it as like this, this literal light that is shining above my head, that I have a little bit more connection to the universe because so many of us don't want to be conscious on a second by second basis in a day that we are going to die and there is a real true gift in that consciousness. It's too hard for so I mean listen I understand. I've walked around most of my life going, I'll deal with that when I die. But I'm truly trying to deal with that now

as a living person so that when I die, I'm more surrendered to what's happening. Yeah, it's unsustainable to carry on a daily basis. Like you can't carry that on a daily basis. So it's like in this window. That's it. That's right. But there's also many faith traditions and spiritualities that insist upon keeping that consciousness

as close as humanly possible. Like the skulls and all of that is just the belief that the more we remember, the more we force that portal open, the more we remember how close death is, the closer we can come to really fully being alive. It is only the consciousness of death. But it's like that poem about learning about grace, not from the rumor of it it but from the experience of it. Those faith traditions and those skulls and whatever, those are totems and reminders that only work as reminders of a lived experience. Abby can now hold a

skull in her hand and look at it and remember when the portal was open and remember that real experience she felt and she knew. But if you just have the reminder, the reminder of what? Something someone else told you about life? You have to have a reminder of something that you knew and felt and was real to you in order to have it be a reminder of something that like can live deeply in you. I would also say though that there are some cultures that celebrate death in a totally different way than we do here in the States.

You know, like the body's whisked away to never be seen again if it's going to be a cremation or the body is whisked away so that people don't have to see it. And, and some other cultures, you know, dead bodies are paraded through the streets. And when you see that, then your consciousness around the reality of death changes. You're not as afraid of it because it's celebrated. Like in our culture, there's like this hush hush. Like it's shameful. Yeah.

Like it's shameful. Yes, it's shameful. Don't speak of that. To do the only inevitable thing thatush. Like it's shameful. Yeah. Like it's shameful. Yes, it's shameful. Don't speak of that. To do the only inevitable thing that we know that it's shameful. And I think you and I, babe, talked about that a lot in terms of the conversation around shouldn't this just be a celebration of life?

And the idea of that, you know, there was talk of like, let's just go to a bar, let's just go to a convention center, let's just, it's a celebration of life. And I think you and I were both surprised with our resistance to that. Like, no, no, no, that is like rushing towards the resurrection without going through the crucifixion. People actually need to not pretend that it doesn't hurt.

You and I have so many issues with religion, but when we were sitting in that church with those freaking bagpipe type shit and like the whatever it was and the incense and the crucified Christ and the stained glass and the balling and I was just like, yes, this kind of grief and pain cannot be in a convention center. Like I need this sensory, full on, grieving, I guess what you said, container to move on. Like it's part of the necessary process to first the pain pain then the rise.

Absolutely yeah it surprised me probably more than anything that like sitting in that church I was like this is exactly where we should be this is exactly how this should go. Yeah can we come right back yeah and then I would love to ask you questions about I have never seen someone walk through anything with the commitment to staying open and learning and growing. And I mean, Susan Stabil would be so proud. So let's come back and talk about what you have learned

that you wanna share with people. Great. That was so beautiful. You are so beautiful. You did such a good job. That was amazing. I know, but I talked a lot. All we want is for you to talk more. So we will be back for Abby to talk more.

We can do hard things, Pod Squad. We love you and we know that every single one of you has been touched by something like this and you are not alone in it today. We're with you. See you next time. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps

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We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burman, and this show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Allison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. I give you Tish Melton and Brandi Carlisle.

I walked through a fire, I came out the other side I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe That I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I walk the line Cause we're adventurers and heart breaks on map A final destination we lack We stopped asking directions To places they've never been

And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do our thing do a hard thing. I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start. I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time, but I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that Our final destination with that

We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved, we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do our thing We're adventurers and heartbreaks on that We might get lost but we're okay like that That we've stopped asking directions In some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be wrong

We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Making me think hard