We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How Glennon Knew She Needed Help: Recovery Update

Episode Date: January 24, 2023

Glennon shares more from the messy middle about how she knew she needed help and what we can all learn from her early recovery. If talk about eating disorders and mental illness helps: Listen today.��  If it triggers: Skip today.   CW // eating disorders If you have an eating discover, you may find the National Eating Disorders Association (NEDA) hotline a helpful resource: https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/help-support/contact-helpline  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Welcome back. You came back. You came back. You came back. I can't believe you're back. We are so excited today.

We're talking to one of our favorite people ever today. Glennens. Oh my gosh, I know I do say that a lot, but I wanna be clear, I usually am very excited because we always are talking to one of my favorite people because we're only, we're always very excited. I am because we only talk to people that we're obsessed with.

That's right. Imagine talking to someone we were like, a lackluster. The beginning of that episode to be like, welcome back to Weakened Hard Things. Our guest is so boring. People will just switch. Nope, not this one. But they're back. I can't believe that they keep coming back. We're so grateful.

We really are. So today, our plan is to give you an update when I recorded, when we recorded you all were there too. Yeah. And we recorded our episode, where I talked for the first time about my diagnosis, anorexia. And then I said I would come back and talk to everybody about how it's going and what recovery looks like so far and what I think other people could take from it. So we're going to do some of that now. What I want you to think about is I am speaking to you as someone who is freshly in recovery. Okay. So, I might not have exactly the right language. A year from now, I might have a more or differently evolved perspective on all of this. Also, please know that my therapist will be listening to this as always to make sure it's safe for

people to listen to. But if this is a concern for you, pass on this podcast. Yes, absolutely. There will be lots of talk about food and recovery and addiction and mental illness and all of the things. But when I was talking to my therapist and doctor about my need to talk about this on the podcast or stop doing the podcast because I couldn't no longer show up and tell the full truth each week without sharing this part of my life. Oh, that's interesting. So, starting to feel, well, yeah, because this is like all I'm thinking about and all I'm doing and my days are consumed with recovery. And so when I come on here and I can't refer to it, I feel like I'm to cut off from the

revolution that's happening inside of me. And I can't share any of it and it starts to feel very inauthentic. But it's weird because when we look at the world, we often see people talking about things after they feel done with them. And there's lots of reasons for that. It's not just because people are afraid to be vulnerable. It's also because it can be safer for the person talking about it and safer for the person listening to it. When the language and the perspective is safer

because it's healthier. So one thing that my doctor said to me was, oh, that's interesting. So you're gonna talk about it now. So you're not doing the tada. And I was like, exactly. Like, I'm a tada or. I'm not doing the, I'm gonna wait until I'm done.

And then I'm gonna tell you everything had happened now from this tada place the before and after. Now, I will say that what I said to my doctor is the reason I'm not waiting for the Tadah or the after moment is because I don't ever remember being an after ever in my life. So, also, don't you think there's a risk? It's the service to the people So, also, don't you think there's a risk? It's the service to the people that are around junior life when you're speaking from the unfinished place that allows everyone else to speak

from the unfinished place. But there's also this risk to me, when I think about that where I'm like, okay, is my desire to speak from the Tadah actually driving me to an end point? Yes. Might not be my natural end point. Like, I'm like, this is what I want to speak from.

So this is where I need to get. Instead of, I just need to get where my road takes me. If you have an end in mind, you're going to figure out a way to get there, but that might not be the end you're supposed to figure out a way to get there. But that might not be the end you're supposed to have. So when you start with that, it's a predestined and that might be less beautiful and wild and interesting, then you can imagine from your middle place. The deciding that I have to have a destination might skew the journey in a way that it wouldn't have been had I not had that false end to goal.

It's like with love where you're like, did I live it and then write it? Or did I write the ending in my heart? And then I was like, I'll live this. Exactly. Exactly. And also, I would say that demanding this idea that we all have to only speak from our to-dos or afters is not fair to people like me. It's certainly not fair to anyone with mental differences because there's no after ever. So it would just silence people completely. And so a few people talk about the middle, talk about the messy middle where things are not perfect, things are confusing. You don't even know what the end result or where you're going to be is. And I think it's a service

to show up as you are in the middle, no matter what it looks like. Thank you. It's interesting, because especially I think for women, we're all trying to avoid the, she's crazy, she's too much, she's love it. So it's very understandable to not put yourself in that, to make yourself vulnerable, but it's that ship has sailed for me. So we're fine. So here we are. So here we are.

And also the other reason is I want to mark throughout this conversation every time part of my recovery has cost a lot of money. Because the recovery process so far for me this time is something that I'm so grateful to be doing right now and I would never at any other point of my life before now, been able to have afforded the recovery that I'm doing right now, which is not the fault of the providers who are providing the services right now that I'm needing for my recovery, but it is a mega problem. And so I just want to point it out to show that so far what I've noticed is that comprehensive

healing or recovery in the Indus Order world is shit ton of money and time that people don't have. And so maybe there's parts of this that I just feel like a call to somehow share what I'm learning. It's also bullshit that's like that healing is a privilege for those who are not only emotionally resource but financially resource. Yeah. It's insane. It's like this culture, that's not a good idea.

It's insane. It's insane. We're already doing it wrong. We're already doing it wrong. We're already doing it wrong.'s insane. It's insane. We're already doing it wrong. Only rich people in a four to not be crazy. It's fucking insane. It is though, but it's not insane. It's very calculated. It's like the culture that makes you that sick then charges you a shitload to keep you

down. To get the toxins out of your body that it put in your body. It's a good system. So here, I want to talk about the moment that I feel like I started recovery because this is so interesting. What my therapist and doctor calls it is sobriety from restriction. The first time my doctor said, okay, so you've been sober from restriction for 14 days or whatever.

I was like, what did you just say? And she said, you've not been restricting. Restricting is what you're addicted to. And so if you've gone 14 days without listening to that voice inside your head that's saying, don't eat, don't eat, then that's sobriety from restriction, which for somebody who had thought she'd been sober for 28 years, it's very interesting that we're now using that language, but it makes very good sense to me now. Okay, which ironically,

the way you got sober from alcohol is by restricting your alcohol use. So in a way, you're eating just what her mind made you a superhero in overcoming that addiction. You're like, oh, restrict. I can do that shit. And then also, hello, there's strict voice is how I felt like I was curing my bulimia. As long as I don't overeat and binge, then I'm safe. It's very confusing up there.

It's very confusing up here. That is thank you. It's that that is really hard. I actually feel just like put my mind in there and I'm like, this is confusing. It is confusing, David. Thank you for saying that. So for all of my, the confusing up here siblings who are listening in the pod squad, I would like to, from my perspective, try to explain what the moment of recovery feels like. The surrender moment. So one night Abby was talking, we were talking about when I had purged. Okay. This is a while back.

We were talking it through and Abby said to me, so in that moment, like when you went to purge, did you know it was wrong? First, all I was jared by the wrong word. But what I realized in that, when she asked me that, was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, like in my mind, that was right. I had eaten it enough that I felt uncomfortable. And my mind was absolutely positive that the right thing to do, the responsible thing to do was to get that food out. Other people might be able to eat and rest and accept themselves and yada yada, but that is not my path. That is not what's right for me. It's not that I was continuously choosing the wrong thing. And I just couldn't stop choosing the wrong thing.

It's that wrong and right, healthy and unhealthy, safe and unsafe were switched completely in my mind. That I truly believed the truest voice in my head was saying, no, no, for you, this is the right thing. This is the right thing. Don't eat, get it out. Don't eat. Okay. So this is the deepest pain of mental illness.

I'm like hoping to God, I can explain this right because it's a hijacking of your core self. For someone who relies so much on intuition, it's this moment where you realize, oh my God, I actually cannot trust my intuition. I cannot trust myself. My guide inside is trying to kill me. It's like the call is coming from inside the house. So the moment where you figure out that that is what's happening, it's like even when you're talking to you, the people you love the most,

the smartest people, the whomever, you're nodding and agreeing, yes, yes, yes, I hear what you're saying, that sounds saying, yes, yes, yes, but there's a voice inside of us that's saying, nope, that's not for you. So you would call that your intuition, or would you call that a part of your brain that wasn't in a line with your intuition? So that's what it is. It's a part of my brain that wasn't in a line with your intuition?

So that's what it is. It's a part of my brain that isn't aligned with intuition, but you, it's impossible to know that difference in the moment when your brain is playing tricks on you. It's impossible to know that. Would I say that maybe somewhere there was like a deeper, deeper, deeper, deeper self that was questioning that loud, loud voice? Probably, which is why there's a moment of surrender. There's a moment where I've talked to the doctor, I've talked to the therapist, I've talked to my wife, I know what my, okay, I can't trust this self. I have to actually align myself away from

myself, if that makes any sense. If my core self is standing next to the eating disorder voice who's trying to keep me safe and saying, no, no, don't do what they're saying, don't do what they're saying, you're not going to be safe. Stay with me. Stay with me. Keep restricting. I have to move myself away from that voice and align myself with the experts. And now it's me and the experts versus the eating disorder voice, whereas it used to be me and the eating disorder voice

versus everybody else, including the experts. OK. And that is a terrifying, freaking moment, especially for someone who has been in fundamentalist religion, who is like, no, no, no, no, I have saved myself by not listening to other voices more than my own, for a person who has been in a therapist's office before, where the therapist told me when I was in love with you that I should just keep giving Craig blow jobs And that's how I should get through my marriage. I have Become very wary of that. I just

Have a very hard time surrendering To an expert. Is any first of all can you check check in with me is anything in any of this making sense? Yeah, my question would be, when was this moment for you that you decided to align with your highest best self and the experts and not your eating disorder voice? Cause I have an idea. I think it was just, I was reading all the books,

seeing myself in all the books. I felt like I was seeing myself through the doctrine, therapists, and your eyes. And I felt like I was seeing myself when my friends are telling me that the thing that is fucked up about their life is not a problem. She knew it. I mean, yeah. Remember the night we got in a bed and you said, I'm feeling, feeling like I'm having an urge that I want to go maybe throw up or something or I don't know the exact words you used.

And you shared with me the moment that you would normally keep to yourself and maybe go do it or not doing but you put this moment out Yeah, and that was a betrayal of the eating disorder That's right. I was like oh, we're not keeping the secret. I'm betraying you. Yeah, yeah And then I know what the other moment was it was so simple It was when my therapist said, okay, that voice inside of you, that aim to sort of voice, and we all have the shitty voices inside of ourselves, right? We all have the shitty voices, you say, you're not good enough, you can't trust anybody, you're not safe, you're blah, blah, blah. So that voice tells you that you need to not eat that, that you need to restrict that

if you eat a whole meal, whatever. What if Tish came to you and told you that she was thinking in that way? What would you say to her? And I said, okay, well, I would say that immediately out of visceral reaction of thinking of my teenage baby girl, teenage baby girl, my teenage halfway grown daughter coming to me and saying, well, I can't eat that because I mean, I had a visceral reaction to it. I said, I would say, baby, you know, let's get some help. That is not freedom.

And so I'm saying that, this visual reaction to what I would say to my girl. And that's the moment where I was like, oh, I guess I do have a completely healthy self that knows that this shit is not true. If my daughter was saying it, I would look at her and say, oh my God, she's sick. But I wasn't saying to myself, oh my God, I'm sick. And so it was that moment of saying, I would say, oh my God, my baby,

sick and she needs help that I had to intellectually admit that that meant that I was needed to say myself, oh my God, baby, we're sick, we need help. So that was the moment, which is so interesting, right? It's like I can never understand anything, unless I put it in the perspective of my children. That's how I decided to leave my marriage. Like, wait, would you want this marriage for your daughter? No. Okay, well then, do we want this for us?

So that was the moment when I realized, oh, okay. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy.

And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy?

You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts. Find it really interesting. I'm a lot slower to process into not right or wrong, but the intuition of assessing a situation and knowing like the right thing to do. You are like off the charts, like amazing at that, except when it comes to this, this like one part of yourself. And I find it really interesting that I don't know bringing the perspective of a child. It's almost like you have to keep bringing the perspective of your child self. When you think of a kid, you think they are blameless, like they are...

Sure, yeah. You want the best for them. You can see all of their beauty and their think they are blameless, like they are. Sure, yeah. You want the best for them. You can see all of their beauty and their freshness to the world and they're, and you can see so clearly what you want for them. It's a strategy to be like, wait, what would I want for her?

Okay, wait, I also should want that for myself. Yeah. Right, if you personally don't relate to this, maybe you can relate to the fact that if your dear friend makes one mistake, you would look at them and say, oh my gosh, shake it off, you're awesome. You're amazing, you do all these other things,

you just made a mistake, like let it go. You might make a mistake and spend the next three weeks for rating the shit out of yourself and think that you are not worthy of the grace that do you think that the piece that you would think your daughter deserved in that situation, at the end of the day, do you feel like you don't deserve that? Like, yes, I get it. For everyone else, that makes sense

that they would deserve to have a life like that. But I don't think that I qualify. Well, I don't think it's that intellectualized. I think the best way I could describe it at the risk of this being a little bit dangerous, but I'm gonna say it anyway because it feels very true to me, is that with this particular kind of thing,

it feels a little bit like I understand being in an abusive relationship with, but it's like being in an abusive relationship with itself. So, it's like when you think about the markers of an abusive relationship, you get gaslit constantly, you get isolated, you aren't allowed to talk to anybody else about it. The thing tells you, I'm just keeping you safe, I'm keeping you safe, I'm keeping you safe. You're different, you're different, this is special. That might be what they have, but you don't get that. This is we are the only ones we can count.

No, the only one. Yes. And you can just keep putting the face on the outside because you know that what you have at home, nobody will understand. And all I can tell you is it's not like I'm intellectually thinking everybody else should have body freedom except for me. It feels like the fuzziness of coming out of an abusive relationship where you're like, oh my God, what happened? That feels exactly right to me. I mean, in eating disorder, it feels like it's an abusive relationship with yourself.

Yes. And in the same way that when you're in an abusive relationship, anyone that approaches you to say, are you sure? Do you deserve? Is everything okay? You're immediately defensive and say, you don't understand us. You don't, they don't get us. They'll never understand. And you, that is in a way what you're doing with yourself. Yes.

You don't understand how we're keeping me safe. Yes. And then somebody you've let in just a little bit says, okay, so what if your baby girl was in a relationship with somebody who was saying those things to them, what would you do? And your whole body explodes and you have visions of tearing to shreds the other person and taking your baby and running away with her. And then you're like, wait, because, oh, I'm thinking that because I would know that

that other person had bad intentions, not good intentions. So why maybe that abusive voice in my head does not have our right intention? That's the best way I can explain it. Abusive relationship with self. I think that I would like to dig in more to the unfolding of this because I think it's really important that you have this a few moments

where you're starting to consider at least maybe surrender, I don't know if that's the word. Turning down the volume of your eating disorder voice, maybe once and for all, or you're considering this option, how does that play out in a day for you? So in terms of like the thoughts that you would have before and after. That's so good. So what I want to say about the eating disorder voice is it doesn't work or hasn't worked for me to then continue to understand it as an abusive relationship.

The eating disorder voice will always be there. So you know that thing when the only tool you have as a hammer every problem looks like a nail. So what my therapist said early on, which balloon my mind was the eating disorder voice will eventually just become the voice that tells you when you need something. Just become the voice inside of you that will guide you towards what you need. What that means is I forever, every time anything happens, every time something's out of control, every time I'm exhausted, every time I'm angry, every time whatever, my only tool is a hammer. So my voice says to me, stop eating, everything's out of control. We can control this one thing. The whole world is, woo, woo, woo, but you've got it.

You've got this, we've got this. No matter what the problem is, my reaction is body food. So the idea is not to banish this eating disorder voice. It's to, and I'm putting some of this in my own words. So this is just what I'm doing. My goal is to educate and love and give the eating to sort of voice some more options. And also, also help the eating to sort of voice trust me.

For example, when my voice says we're tired, I want that voice to know I will say, okay, we're tired. I want that voice to know, I will say, okay, we're gonna rest. Yeah. Or everything's out of control. Okay, you must be really scared. And we're just gonna take it really easy for a little while. And we're gonna just do some more breathing.

And we're just gonna write treat ourselves like a little teeny baby. And we're gonna like, or plant. And we're gonna water ourselves. And we're gonna sun ourselves. I think that I also have a responsibility to this other voice to say to it, if you tell me what we need, I will get it for us. And we don't always have to resort to this one tool that we thought we had to deal with every emotion or happening or being human on earth. Yeah. Making sense. That makes a lot of sense to me.

That's really helpful. It's like a, it's a toolbox and a feeling. It's like that you say fat is not a feeling like when if you're feeling lonely, are you feeling sad or you feeling stressed or you're feeling overwhelmed or you're feeling betrayed or you're feeling hopeless. All of that might come in your output might be fat. If you're fat, exactly or you're feeling hopeless. All of that might come in, your output might be fat, if you're fat. Exactly.

That's not accurate. You can have any number of needs, but if you're only move, if your only move is either deprivation or binging to process whatever emotion, then that makes sense. That is what you would naturally do because you do whether you're recognizing it or not,

have a shit ton of emotions and a shit ton of things to process through. So if that's your only move, you're sure shit gonna be doing that move every day. Exactly, and that's the thing is that I offer my story as an example of this, but I know I have a friend who is in an abusive relationship in her mind with shopping.

And every time she feels anything, her go-to move is scroll, scroll, scroll, cart, cart. By the way, I've got a little of that too. It's a little bit abusive with herself because it's not going well. Oh, and it's secrets. Yes. And it breaks up relationships. And you're hiding the thing and you're feeling guilty for the thing. And also, by the way, there's a direct corollary to the purging because there's often like

a buy it all. I got the buzz. Okay, now I'm going to return it all. Like there's a whole thing there. But that's the same. I do that too. I do that too. I buy and return.

Yeah. I have a question. What are some of the specific tools that you feel like you're employing right now in your life? So some specifics, disclaimer, everybody's is different. Everybody's recovery is different. Through my doctor, my therapist, both of which cost money, I have someone helping me with food now, which also costs a lot of money. So I have to eat three meals a day and snacks without any talking about it or negotiating about it. That's like, has to be done. I could talk for hours about that situation. I wake up every day trying to figure out if it's the most amazing like jackpot situation of my life that I get to eat again

Like what I get to eat again. I'm gonna eat again three times a day What or waking up like it's a groundhog day like I cannot believe that I'm gonna do this again It depends on which voice is louder I guess On a certain day on a certain day. Yeah, So you're still, it's still not necessarily negotiation, but still a chore or a joy? It's both at this moment. And I'm not even ready to like, I think eventually we'll figure that out, a food thing,

but I'm just doing it. I'm doing it. So what I'm doing is I am surrendering also to the kind of program thing that I'm in with my therapist. Now, one of the things I tend to do with any sort of improvement or therapy or whatever is to get in there, read what's going on, read what they're trying to teach me, read their books, listen to their things, get smarter than them, and be like, got it, I got it. Okay. And I'm saying that like that is truly what than them. And be like, got it, I got it.

Okay. And I'm saying that that is truly what I do. I'm like, I see your resources and your wisdom. And I'm not gonna do it all. I'm not gonna like go through your writing prompts and do your exercises because I've got it. I've intellectualized what you're trying to give. And I just feel like I'm taking like an advanced level class. And so I am not doing that. I am doing the journals and the writing prompts and the exploration of the past. Like I'm just and I'm just, and I'm just gonna say, I do understand why we do those things, why we should.

And I understand why perhaps it hasn't worked for me in the past. It reminds me very much of Cole Arthur Riley and how she talks about, like, liberation being experienced in the body. You can't intellectualize this shit. Like, it all has to be experienced to this sort of recovery. I also have a scale that I have to weigh myself on, but I don't get just, there's no numbers on the scale. So the scale sends my numbers to my therapist.

It's so wild. And the idea behind that is that the goal will be no scales ever ever get in my entire life, but but that my recovery does need to be monitored at this moment in terms of weight gain. Or loss. Also, what's one of the another reason for that is that when you are recovering from an eating disorder, you don't have any actual take on what's happening. Like you can feel like you've gained 25 pounds and you have gained three pounds. So your therapist can kind of give you reality checks too. So our deal between each

other is we have a certain number, a mount that she promised me, if I go over, she will tell me. Yeah, threshold. And before that, we won't discuss it. So it kind of gives me this safety net for this period. So do you feel in the back of your mind, like nervous every time you meet, like, oh, is she going to tell me today that we're at that number? I have recently thought that a few times. Yeah, I have recently thought that a few times. Yeah, I have recently thought that a few times.

I have gained weight, like just factually I have gained weight. She's told me that I know that I had this amazing day that I want to talk about now that I went to get dressed and I tried to put on one of my pairs of jeans and they wouldn't fit. And I looked at my closet and I just had this moment of, oh my God, everything in my closet is so fucking tight. All of my jeans are so tight. Like I've probably gained at this point, I'd probably gained like five pounds or something

and I couldn't wear any of my clothes. Mm, that's not right. I get five pounds and I couldn't wear any of my clothes. Why? I looked at my closet and suddenly it turned into this nefarious line. My jeans were lined up. I was like, they're like a line of fucking police people.

I have created my closet in a way that reminds me every single day I'm dead. Don't you step out of line? Yeah. I have spent money on clothes that are policing my body. So the next day, I went in my closet and packed up every single type thing. I had no more tight clothes. And PS, another thing that costs money. I had to go buy bigger pants and pants that I decided I don't want clothes that give me any feedback about my body.

I don't want fucking feedback from my fucking inanimate clothes. From the shit that I buy. That I buy this shit and then you have an opinion about my lunch. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, there is a lot of baffling rage that goes on with this process. I have noticed that day in my closet, I was full of rage. I had a day where I was walking from my car to my, I don't know, some store.

And I was walking down the street and I, every single, I mean, we do live in LA, but every single store, every single window, every single little placards that sit outside said something about come in here and get your fat frozen off. Come in here and get your forehead straightened. Come in here and get your cryo shit taken off your thighs. Like everything, it just felt like, oh my god,

we don't stand a fucking chance. Yeah. We do not stand a fucking chance. We do not stand a fucking chance. It's a whole closet outside. Yeah, it's a whole closet outside. We don't even notice it. It's like that speech about we can't see the water. We're the fish.

We don't even know we live in water because the water is our whole world. When you start to wake up to, you know, what we would call like, Diet culture or beauty culture, which I don't even think any of that is strong enough. Or culture. Or culture, right? Just culture.

Sickness. It's so, it is like a cult. And then you start seeing it like, oh my God, where like if I saw this on a TV show, I'd be like, oh my God, that's not real. It's real. You'd be like a little heavy-handed on this saw this on a TV show, I'd be like, oh my god, that's not real. It's real! You'd be like a little heavy-handed on this. It's a little on the nose.

We're gonna melt our asses off, okay. Oh no, no, no, you're gonna melt your ass off. You're always gonna buy that. So I have a question. Is there any part of yourself that is having a revolution? So like, first is the revelation and then comes the revolution. So now you are wearing, I would say, more comfortable clothes. I sure it's how I like. I sure is how that. You just were, like, uncomfortable for a long time.

When you're putting those clothes on, are you thinking, gosh, this is how I've been made to feel? I was supposed to be feeling this way all along, or are you not there yet? No, I am definitely there yet. You know I'm just having a close confusion. I cannot speak to clothes right now. I'm so confused about clothes.

But your energy feels more comfortable. Yes, I would agree with that. You might be confused because you're working it out, but just even the way that you're walking around the house and the way that you lay, clothes restrict you from movement when they're too tight. So like you are, when you're reading your books on the couch, you're not forced to sit in a specific stress way.

You're just like laying there as your body should. And I see a little bit of loosening of you in that way. So I want to talk then about mentally what's happening because I feel like in some ways this has been the most interesting part. I know what I was doing. I was walking from ironically, I was walking from my car to the hairdresser to get all the gray taken out of my hair because I'm so revolutionized. because I'm so revolutionized. Right, baby steps, assholes. Baby steps.

So I went in there and my hairdresser who I love said, what's going on with you? Your hair, are you taking supplements? Your hair is different, your hair's growing, there's all this new growth. And I was like, I think I'm trying this new wellness trend that's called eating food. But so anyway, these interesting things started happening. And what the hardest part, the most confusing part of the beginning, now I will

try to explain this which because the rest has made so much sense. I'm sure that this one will be completely understandable. So the way that I felt in the beginning, in the beginning when I was starting to eat three meals a day in snacks, When I was starting to do all the therapy, when I was starting to re-understand my own narrative of my life, when I was starting to understand that so much of what I thought was unfixable anxiety was actually that I was hungry. I was really hungry up and very hungry for a very long time. And being very hungry has changed my brain. When I started doing all that, reprogramming my brain, living in my body, do you remember when I was talking about the, in the landing episode,

when I was talking about sitting with my family in the car and I said, it, I feel like all of them just trust gravity to hold them down and I'm just flying away constantly. What I will say about the first month of recovery from anorexia is that I felt like gravity applied to me for the first time and actually had those thoughts, oh my God. And I did not mean that in a good way. Mm-hmm. I felt like I was every day, and Abby, you remember all of this.

I felt like I was walking through molasses. I felt like somebody had poured honey all over my brain. Nothing was clear. Nothing, I was exhausted. It was like walking through split pea soup, just like split pea soup, what? Like thick and green and you can't see through it and it's opaque and like, and I couldn't talk.

Yeah, you were slow. And you're slow. And you were, I think that there was a grieving process because it was like, I don't know, maybe for the first time it looked like you were realizing you were human. Yes. It was horrific. I was like, is this how people feel?

What is this shit? Anxiety is high and buzzing. Anxiety is nervous and it's in your mind and it's busy and it's up high and it is nervous and it's in your mind and it's busy and it's up high and it's quick and it's performing. It's ready. It's ready. It's ready.

It's fight or flight constantly. And this settling from my brain into my body was very highly uncomfortable. I had moments on the podcast, I couldn't recall words, I would look at Abby like what the hell. You said to me one time, it feels like you're a human being, you're more human and you meant that as a compliment and I was so offended by it. You're no longer slower in your mind, you've come through that. But I just remember feeling like, oh my gosh, thank God she is human.

Yeah. And then I went on the road during this monkey in my body human time to do my work and stand on stages and talk. And I was sitting on a stage in front of 1,500 people. And I looked out at the crowd. And I was like, what the fuck am I doing? I think I've been doing this job for 15 years.

I've been standing on stages in front of those freaking stadiums. I think I just buzzed it out in my years. I've been standing on stages and firm. Those freaking stadiums, I think I just buzzed it out in my brain, performed it, performed it, left my body and then came back stage and was like, whoa, what the fuck was that? For the first time I was in my body, staring at these people and I was like,

oh, this is ridiculous. This is not responsible. Who are you? This. Who would do this? But tragically, I had that thought 25% into this speech that I was in my body for the first time. I made it through.

Left the stage, soon after, called our team and said, I'm done with this. I still am at the point where I have to abandon myself and go to my anxiety self to do it. So I'm not going to do it until I have to abandon myself and go to my anxiety self to do it. So I'm not going to do it until I have more of this shit figured out because I want to be able to speak, but I have to do it from a different energy. From a different place. I have to figure out how to do it while I'm still in my body. And then I do want to end with this. After I had made that decision

to never leave, then Jane fondas people called and said, will you please come do her toast? And I wasn't going to say to Jane fond, I know because I'm working on embodiment. So I can't go talk to Jane fondess who taught me about embodiment. So I said, shit. All right, Abby and I went together. If you've listened to the Jane fond episode, that is the day I stood up, I stood on stage, I read the toast, which is very unlike me, you just haven't memorized, perfected. Now I read it and I started crying on stage. And then when I came off stage, Emily's wife Tristan, she had tears in her eyes and she said, you just seemed so embodied up there.

Oh. I was like, what the fuck is going on? Halfway through the toast, you looked at me. Because I was crying. You're crying and you pulled the mic away and you go, what is happening? The second time I've said, what is happening to you? I'm like, you're doing great, keep going.

Because tears were coming out of my eyeballs, as if you were actually experiencing something as opposed to observing yourself experiencing something. That's right. As if I was a human being having a human experience, instead of a performing being, impersonating a human being. I felt like, so, oh my God, I'm... I felt like I was being myself and it was going okay.

I don't know how else to explain it. I felt like, oh my God, I just was myself and it wasn't a disappointment to everyone. In fact, the opposite. And that, honestly, that's how I feel in the pod. That's why I can do this and not other things yet. Is that the indisha when you say I was being myself and it wasn't a disappointment to people? Because you can't often tell that.

Like that's not that. That can't be a clarity of that's the test because like this podcast right now, people could be like, that's amazing. She expressed exactly what I've been feeling or I don't understand the damn word she just said. So that can't be the indisha of whether it's working, doesn't it have to be like, I can be myself

and it's not effortful or it doesn't require a certain thing of me or. Yes, but eventually, if I were in the to-dole part, if I were coming to you and saying, I've got this figured out that maybe that's where I would be. But for me, that step was about, wait, I just surrendered and was myself and the whole world didn't fall apart. I don't know, like what you're saying sounds like the goal for me.

And once I get to that, I'll be able to speak on stages. The part of gold at the end of that rainbow is what Tristan said to you. That affirmation of seeing and feeling and being in that moment and seeing somebody else, seeing you being in body, that affirmation will get you down the road of just being yourself all the time everywhere and no matter what happens, that's the part of the end. Go on, go to the end of the rainbow.

Yes. That's the part of the end goal of the end of the rainbow. Yes, and also, that was the moment where I figured out this is the magic, like I would rather be average and embodied than amazing and fuzzy and shiny and disembodied. And I think that fully embodied or fully present people are a revolution in a miracle. And so I'm saying all of this and like one narrative of this is holy shit, that shit crazy and she's just trying to get to normal.

But I actually think that what is normal is disembodied. And I'm trying to get to a miracle, which is embodied. I don't think there's a lot of embodied people walking around. I think that you are one Abby. But I do not think the people that we have to listen to constantly and compare ourselves to. I don't think many of them are embodied, meaning being real in the moment.

And so I'm not trying to just get to a baseline, I'm trying to get to the miracle of that. Mm. I also think when you're saying I would rather be embodied and normal than be amazing and busy. I just want to hang on that for a second because I think that's what your voices are saying. Your voices are saying when you are the other thing, you're amazing. And when you are this thing, you're normal. That's good.

Because some people might see you on stage and be like, that's not amazing. Totally. Some people might hear you now and be like, that's amazing. So it isn't objective. It's not like someone's an A and someone's about a C. I think the distinction is when you're performing and when you're not performing.

And so I agree with you that it is a miracle to walk through life not performing because most of us don't even know when we're performing and when we're not because we're so good at it. So for you, it happens to be a literal stage. For many people, it's at the pickup line at school. It's at their office when you're going to the coffee machine and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Saying whatever you think you're supposed to say, trying to put on the face or react to the way you're supposed to react. So you just happen to have a very literal sense of that. But I don't think it's amazing or not.

It's like that click you get when you feel yourself not being effortful. Yes, because it's not just stages. It's like how I am with the family when they come home and I'm like, You're doing everything has to be perfect. Definitely has to be, or like, why do I not want to have people over?

Because I have to be on? Exactly. Exactly. What does that mean? Exactly. I have one friend, literally, but also one friend, Alex, I have figured out when she comes over, I don't dread it because I'm not yeah. I think that was a really good point that you made about you'd rather be embodied and normal. Like that's your eating disorder brain maybe talking. Like you just want to be embodied. Yeah. Because that's not normal or perfect.

I just think that's really good, really important point. Yeah. There's just something about and everyone has their own version of this. I mean, lots of people are in offices and are performing are our mothers of young children and are performing or whatever. For me, there's something about this job that I have read as I have to be this. And I think that what I've noticed is the more embodied I am, the more quiet I am. And so I don't know how to make that work. I'm on stage and I'm like, And so I don't know how to make that work. I'm on stage and I'm like,

I'd like to hear what you have to say. I'm a speaker who's interested in what you think. Anybody have any ideas? I don't think that that's totally true. I don't think that you're more quiet. I think that the things that you're thinking about and the things that come out of your mouth But I think that the things that you're thinking about and the things that come out of your mouth aren't going through an exhaustive neurology of buzzy vibration.

Interestingly enough, you make far fewer metaphors now. That's so interesting. That's fascinating. Isn't it? How many metaphors did you have today? How many metaphors did you make today? Yeah. I think I know what it is. I think it's the responsibility we take for the energy in the room. Yeah. For what happens in the room. I think that is the thread that goes through everything. It's the thread between why it's exhausting

to think about having people come over to your house. It's not the having them over. It's the ensuring that you are maintaining an ecosystem of energy in this space. And that requires you to do what? To buzz, to make sure that person's saying, to make sure that person's not talking over that person, to make sure that's the energy. It's the same thing with the speaking, going into sure that person's saying, to make sure that person's not talking over that person, to make sure that's the energy.

It's the same thing with the speaking, going into the room and being like, not I'm showing up for your event that you had me come in. You're like, I am here at your event and I will ensure every one of these 6,000 people at the time of their lives. I'm in a good mood. And you, and you, and you, when you stay quiet,

I think that's what you mean. Where you're like, I'm responsible for me. Yes. And I am not ensuring that I pour out to make sure everybody's experience is what it should be. That's what my therapist keeps saying. That's so interesting. She keeps saying, I don't think you have to give all of yourself.

And I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, I don't think you have to give all of yourself. And I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, I don't think you have to keep giving away. I think you can do these things without giving yourself a whole self away every time. And I think that I never understand what she's saying, but I think that's what she said. That is. You owe me $250.

Yeah. Another thing that costs money. And the other thing that I'll just say, one thing that has been so impressive and important for me is that through your therapy, I have been looking at you less. Yes. I have been concerned less because your nervous system and your vibration has lowered and your energy has been more grounded that I am more trusting that you've got you.

Yeah. And this has been really revolutionary for me because now I've got to figure out my shit. Such a way liberation. That's the good news and bad news. Pod Squad, if you are still with us, God bless you and keep you. And we are forever grateful for you riding this ride with us. Glennon, thank you for being so honest and open about this. You're just a dream. I'm so grateful for you too, because the reason why I'm able to surrender to this process is because I know I have people who will, it's like the safety net of, I love talking about it because I feel like that keeps me safe because then if I'm saying all the things out loud, one of you will be like, well that's it, doesn't sound right. And then I'll know if I'm in a cult again. So thank you very much. I love you both

so much. Love you Pod Squad. We'll catch you back next time and maybe we'll try to talk about some easier things I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle I walk through a fire I came out the other side I chased, desire I made sure I got once money And I continued to believe That I'm the one for me And because I mine, I want the line

Cause we're adventurous in heartbreak So man, a final destination That we stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache

I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall hard And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time, but I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map A final destination with that We stopped asking directions Stopd asking directions So places they've never been

To be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache. This world finished her rose and heart breaks on my way. We might get lost but we're only in that. Stop that skiing directions. Stop masking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known

We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things We can do hard things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever

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