We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to be Sexually Confident with Mae Martin (Best Of)

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

1. Mae, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda each explore their sexuality by delving into what sexually attracts each of them.  2. The sex-positive way Mae’s parents taught them about sex – and orgasm(!) �� and how they never made assumptions about Mae's sexuality.  3. Gender as creative expression and a way to have fun. 4. Simple ways to switch up the monotony of routine; to transform boredom into exploration; and dopamine-infused alternatives for addictive personality types. 5. How fear of abandonment / fear of dependence can take over our lives.  About Mae: Mae Martin is an award-winning comedian, actor, writer, and producer who can be seen starring in Feel Good, which they also created and co-wrote. Mae is currently in development with their upcoming scripted project Programmed for Netflix and stars in season 2 of The Flight Attendant on HBO Max. Mae Martin's Guide To… series about sexuality and addiction are available to listen to on BBC Sounds. Mae is also the author of Can Everyone Please Calm Down?: A Guide to 21st Century Sexuality. TW: @TheMaeMartin IG: @hooraymae To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

One of my favorite parts about the holiday this year was our recent stay when we went to go visit Glenn and Abby's family in LA, but we stayed in our own Airbnb a few blocks away. It was the best of both worlds because look you've got your privacy, you've got your own refrigerator, you've got your own beds, multiple beds by the way, and your own bathroom. And you know what? Then you can have your own bedtimes. It was just so nice to wake up in our own cozy place and have our own family time and then rejoin the larger family for the Christmas festivities and then retreat when everyone

needed a little breather. So here's the deal, whether you're traveling with family or friends, those extra rooms, the fully stocked kitchen, not only saves you a bunch of money, but it also makes a huge difference. If you're flying solo, you can make your stay your own little sanctuary.

If you're planning a winter getaway this year, I highly recommend giving Airbnb a try. Trust me, it's an experience you won't regret. Where's your playlist taking you? Down the highway? To the mountains? Or just into daydream mode while you're stuck in traffic? With over 4,000 hotels worldwide, Best Western is there to help you make the most of your

getaway. Wherever that is. Because the only thing better than a great playlist is a great trip. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Book, direct and save at bestwestern.com. Okay, everybody. Thanks for coming back to We Can Do Hard Things. We're going to jump right in because we're very excited about the person who is with

us today. Mae Martin is an award-winning comedian, actor, writer, and producer who can be seen starring in Feel Good, which we freaking loved, which they also created and co-wrote. May is currently in development with Programmed for Netflix and stars in season two of The Flight Attendant, So Cool on HBO Max. May Martin's Guide To, series about sexuality and addiction are available to listen to on BBC Sounds.

May is also the author of Can Everyone Please Calm Down? A Guide to 21st Century Sexuality. So good. Which our family has been going through like a hilarious family class for the last month. Welcome May. Thanks for coming on We Can Do Hard Things. Thanks for having me.

It's so nice to meet you all. You too. This is my wife, Abby. This is my sister, Amanda. And you all know this is me. So, we have so much to ask you about, but we want to start with sexuality, because that's just an easy subject. We can just get out of the way real quick. Yeah, just a light, you know.

Easy breezy. Yeah. And also just because we enjoyed your book so much. Let's start by talking about why we should talk about sexuality. Because I loved your point, which is really sexuality is for everybody, not just queer people and the poor straight people never get to talk about their sexuality because it is always seen as something that is just for queer people. But you say in the book, which I love, that gender preferences are kind of the least important part of sexuality. There's a lot of other parts.

Yeah, that's been my experience. And definitely even, regardless of how you identify, you're rarely attracted to an entire gender, right? It's to do with pheromones or the way people an entire gender, right? It's to do with pheromones or the way people laugh. I have like very specific criteria. Yes you do. Yeah, I think people often forget that, yeah, it's not just queer people that have a sexuality. Yeah, so some of the examples-

The token hetero on this pod, I will say, I will affirm that, that it didn't occur to me. We even did one on sexuality and I was like, oh, okay, I will affirm that, that it didn't occur to me. We even did one on sexuality and I was like, oh, okay, I'll just listen to that one. I don't have one. Yes. I know. Yeah, that's insane, right? Yeah. I think it's because queer people are asked to communicate about it a lot more and to sort of defend it and explain it a lot more. So it feels like a much bigger part of our identity when really it should be just one small part, you know, or it should be the same size as your part.

That's right. Right. So this is what we're talking about. Okay. These are some examples of May's sexuality. Okay. As of a few years ago. Oh God.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. May really loves winkers. Okay. Yes. That's W-I-N-K-E-R-S. May loves people who wink at them.

Incessantly or something? Also diving well. Probably strategically. Probably not incessantly or something. Also diving well. Probably strategically. Probably not incessantly. Incessantly, I'd call an ambulance for them. But yeah, I love it. I think it's the confidence. When someone, I know it's kind of old school, but a wink is,

maybe I just like attention. And so it's very direct attention of someone going, I'm giving you attention. And I love, yeah, I love a wink. I can't do it maybe. That's part direct attention of someone going, I'm giving you attention. And I love, yeah, I love a wink. I can't do it. Maybe that's part of it too. I can't.

I'm a terrible winker, but like a subtle quick wink. Whoa. It's like a bullet. If the winks happen with like two guns. Like finger guns? Oh, like pointer? Yeah, pointer fingers. That's a bro wink.

It's a bro wink. Yeah, that's like Ace Ventura. Like pointer fingers? That's a bro-wink. That's a bro-wink. Yeah, that's like Ace Ventura. I don't think I can get on board with that. And you also said that your sexuality is people who order you drinks without asking what you want, and then also people who drive while you're the passenger. So I'm noticing some kind of like you want someone else to be the boss of the situation or am I over generalizing here? Yeah, I think it's evolved slightly the drink thing because once I put that in print now

when I'm out people send me drinks and I'm scared of what's in them. I'm like this is not safe. I don't know. I shouldn't have said this but I guess it's all confidence for me. And yeah, being in the passenger seat when someone's driving is hot to me. Yeah, a car is a powerful vehicle. And being like, I guess I'm going where you're taking me. Yeah. Interesting. What about you two? Because I gave them homework that they were going to

have to figure out what their sexuality was. Oh, great. Sister, go ahead. Sister, go. I think I might have the same sexuality as May. Okay. Really? Which is fascinating because my things are bodily identifying you in a group.

Like with confidence, with some gesture that suggests that you know exactly what's going to happen. Yes. So things like just staring at you right in the eye just a little too long. Eye contact. That is electric. Yeah. Yes. And the like things that might be like, oh God, other people are seeing, oh, oh, this is happening. You are, you are foreshadowing something right now. Or like this happened to a friend of mine recently. She was at a party and she was in a group talking

to other people in the group. And this gentleman came over, took her hand, put her drink down on the table and just took her to the dance floor. And I was like, that is my sexuality. Like that, thank you. And bodily awareness of not only themselves, but you. So like if someone's walking past, like putting their hand on your back and like kind of being

aware. Like, I don't know, it's something about being aware of your body and aware. But what's weird is like all of these things become awful if the wrong person does that, right? Like that is so repulsive if some random creep is doing that. But yeah, if it's someone that there's a vibe. I had a few.

Someone who can bring a joke full circle and land it. Like inside a conversation where we've been talking for 10 minutes and then the one person who can just bring it home and tie up. That's a thing that Glennon does. And then I'll say this one. Um, someone who is up for an adventure. Like if I were to say, Hey, let's go do this X. And they're like, yes. And also we should also do Y. And I'm like, yes. Somebody who wants to bring their yes game and also add to it. Huh, okay.

Yeah, yeah, I'm with you. Hmm, that's cool. I had a hard time with this one. Yeah, tell us. Really hard time, because you know, I've just gotten a sexuality in the last few years. I would beg to differ, but yeah. You just sort of act.

No, I think it's slightly true. Like I think I shut it down for so long and didn't explore it because I was scared of what was there. But I will tell you that one of the things I have noticed throughout my entire life is that when anyone approached me that was non-binary looking, what I assume is my sexuality, all I can tell you is that if my heart was a soldier, it was like suddenly at attention. Yeah.

Is that sexuality? You know, there's certain people who when they're around, it's like a director has said action and suddenly you're in the room and you're, it's those people and they, and you're trying to be the best version of yourself. I love that feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I love that feeling. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Okay. So May, I just need to talk about your parents for a minute and how they talk to you about sex because we actually have a lot of parents that listen to this pad. And I think that your parents did such a amazing job of the talk, which really should be an ongoing conversation forever with the family. But first of all, didn't your mom sit you down with hand-drawn diagrams of sex? Yeah.

If for when I have kids, I don't know that I would do it exactly the way they did it. But yeah, I was really young and I think I had a lot of questions already probably, because my parents had shown me the movie Rocky Horror Picture Show when I was very young, because it was like a family favorite. And then yeah, my mom sat me down, I think I was about five or six, and she had diagrams and she just in that conversation said this is how a man and a woman have sex and a man and a man and a woman and a woman and like she really covered every base and she told me a lot in that conversation. She told me there's no Santa Claus in the same conversation.

That was a lot to take in and she just sort of demystified all of life in one sitting. But she was very sex positive always and described it as extremely pleasurable and tried to explain orgasms and stuff. I mean, it was maybe too much, but I mean, I couldn't really understand it at that age, but I just knew it wasn't scary. And I also, they never assumed that I was straight, me or my brother, who, who is ostensibly straight, I guess. They always said, do you have a girlfriend or a boyfriend or a, you know what I mean? It was just, because it is crazy that we just assume.

It is. You know? Even the pictures, even the saying, this is sex between a woman and a woman, that is so brilliant. Also, if you need a cheat sheet, you could explain orgasms the way that May's mother did, which is this.

When two, okay, just want you to imagine a mother saying this to six-year-old May. Okay? When two people love each other and they're naked and having sex, they feel very happy and then they feel increasingly happy and finally they reach a moment of extreme happiness and an explosion of rainbows cascades across the sky. So poetic and so misleading. Yes.

I mean, like, yeah, I was really, really disappointed when it finally happened. No rainbows. The only person for whom the first orgasm was really fucking let down. It was a let down. Yeah. I was like, have I done it wrong? Like, can we talk about the fact that you never had to come out? It was a let down. Yeah, I was like, have I done it wrong? Can we talk about the fact that you never had to come out?

Because this is something we talk about all the time, which is, I don't know if people who don't have to come out even know why it's so infuriating to have to come out. Because it's sexualizing yourself in front of people over and over again. Which straight people never have to do. Straight people don't have to sit down with their parents and say, hello, I'd like to announce the fact that I'm a sexual being and have sexual feelings towards people. Yeah, it's insane.

I mean, there's no other preference where you have to declare it and then stick with it. When you're a teenager, if you were like, what kind of music do you like? And then you have to say it and never change it. And yeah, I'm lucky I think. We had other issues, me and my parents for sure, but just in this area, they really did a great job at giving me this armor against the rest of the world

kind of, and you know, then I encountered all of that weirdness when I was not at home and I was like, oh, why is this the thing? But I remember renting the movie Gia. Oh, I love that movie. Yeah, with Angelina Jolie. And there's a sex scene in it.

But I just was, I just didn't know to be ashamed. And I didn't even really know what it meant, but I was like, God, guys, I just love this movie so much. I just kept talking about it to my parents and being like, isn't this a beautiful scene? And they were like, yeah, okay. And I think that was all. And then I always brought home boys and girls. And yeah, I mean, I think I had a pretty voracious sexual appetite. So I don't know if that was a byproduct of how they raised me. Probably Gia. Probably Gia.

I actually really remember being very attached to that movie. Have you seen it? I have seen it. It makes sense. It's all coming together now. We talked about this. One time when you were explaining to a friend, I think you were saying at the time that you were going to date a boy when you were explaining to a friend, I think you were saying at the time that you were gonna date a boy, you were dating a boy, and your friend got upset in like a very confused way because your friend was used to seeing you date women. And so he looked at you strangely and said,

I can't imagine you having sex with a dude. And you said, which made us so happy, please refrain from imagining me having sex with anyone. Yes. Yeah. That's so weird for queer people that it's every conversation is the other person imagining you having sex with someone. Yeah.

And also besides that, it's like, really you can't imagine it? Like I can imagine anything I want at any time. That's right. That's right. How that's sad for your imagination. That's right. Early on in my coming out story, I felt like, because it was 20 years ago,

I felt like I was the one that was teaching everybody about gayness. And so all of the questions would come and I felt like it was the one that was teaching everybody about gayness. And so all of the questions would come and I felt like it was my unfortunate duty to have to educate. And you know, quite frankly, a lot of my straight dude friends were asking me a lot of important questions for their sexual lives. And I hated it, but I also felt like it was a service that I had to do for some reason. It was brutal. Yeah.

That's how I feel a little bit about gender right now. And that's also like such an evolving journey for me and a recent shift. And I get so many questions about it. And on the one hand, you're like, it's frustrating, but also I try so hard to be. It's a new thing for everyone, sort of. I mean, not in human history, but in recent years. So I'm trying to be super patient and with my parents and stuff, you know?

I think it's important that people feel safe to ask questions, but then, I don't know, they've got to be polite questions too. They really do. And also if it's something you can Google, maybe do that as well. What is the conversation with your parents right now? And what is the journey you're on with gender?

Well, so I'm 35 and looking back, I'm like, oh, I'm for sure trans. But then, and for 10 years, I thought every day about top surgery. And I just never thought I'd be brave enough to do it. I thought it was such a huge deal and such a massive thing. And then I just did it at Christmas and it's been incredible. And I didn't think that this type of joy or like feeling comfortable in my body,

I didn't think it was accessible to me. I thought everyone else felt the way I felt all the time. And now I'm like, Oh my God, I, what a waste of time that I spent all that time worrying. So I feel great. And I think my parents can see how good I feel and that's good. Yeah. And they've been, they've been good. Pronouns are hard for people. I mean, it's hard if you aren't in a community where you're hearing them used a lot and it becomes second nature pretty fast, I think, but for them, you know, they live a pretty quiet and stiller life and they can't really wrap their head around that yet, but they're trying. And they said an interesting thing the last time they visited me, I was like

swimming in front of them and I think they could just see how happy I am. And they said, we can't really understand the pronoun thing, but we want you to know that we see you as you are. We can see that you're not a girl and you don't feel like a girl. And so we do know and see you and all your nuances and everything, but it's just linguistically we can't get it. So I was like, oh, that's a step. But also maybe

give it a go sometimes, you know, throw a they in for good measure. Wealthsimple's Big Winter Bundle is our best match offer yet. Get a 2% match when you transfer over an eligible RRSP. For a $50,000 transfer, that's a $1,000 cash bonus. Enough to buy a fancy parka. A ticket to somewhere you don't need a fancy parka. Or just be responsible and top up your retirement fund. Plus, move any other eligible account and we'll give you a 1% match. Minimum $15,000 transfer. Register by March 15th. Additional terms apply. Learn more at Wealthsimple a 1% match. Minimum $15,000 transfer. Register by March 15th.

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I think that one of the things that has really helped me, not only the fact that I'm very non-binary in so much of my life, I just, I feel like I'm attached to the pronoun she her. And so one of our children, they have a non-binary friend that uses the pronouns they them. And it blew my mind when I started to think of it as just a third way, rather than just having two options, there's a middle option. And that helped me orient how to communicate. And by the way, like, I still make mistakes. They all do. And just moving beyond those mistakes as quickly and as least dramatically as possible has been really kind of shifting for me.

Yeah, it's tricky because it's like you talk about paradigm shifts on this podcast. It is a big and challenging thing, but it's such an important thing that's happening. It might take a hundred years for us to undo how rigid we've become in this binary, but we're definitely headed in that direction. And it's super important and interesting. And I think if we can get interested in it in a historical and scientific and cultural anthropological way, if you do any sort of research into it, it's, it's just very compelling and you, you, you start to see these rigid walls that have been built around us and how limiting they can be.

And I mean, even like right now, the World Health Organization defines gender as a cultural thing, you know. It really rocks people's world, though. But even sex is not that binary, you know, when you come down to it. It's good and exciting, but I don't know. It really, people have a panic reaction for sure. So the World Health Organization says that gender is cultural. Here's a question. So I, every poor person who listens to this podcast, who has to listen to me talk about gender incessantly,

because I'm always trying to figure it out. But I can't understand. Gender doesn't feel like anything that's inside me. It feels like things that I have put on the outside of me, because that's how I've been told to present in the world. But I can't find it inside of me. So, like when our son is explaining how his friend is identifying, and he says, look, just look at them. Like there's, you know, a soul, all souls have to be thems. Like when you start thinking about human beings as not gendered, because gender is not real, you just will start thinking them, them, them, because it makes more sense actually. Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is so beautiful and probably right. But then I have,

I get to that place where I'm like, gender is not real. It's not fucking real. And then I have a dear friend who's trans and is like, Oh no, thank you. That's not correct. I am a man. Interesting. And I'm like, wait, what is it? Yeah, that's super interesting. It's a minefield. I mean, I'm more, I feel similarly to you, I think, where I'm, my personal experiences, when I sort of free myself from those things, I'm like, I don't identify with any of it really.

But then, I don't know, I guess in the performance of it, like I do identify, like, I feel more comfortable being masculine presenting and I kind of enjoy embodying those tropes sometimes, like playfully. And the people that I idolize and stuff and growing up wanted to be like are all, you know, River Phoenix and people like that. So I don't know, if we can just take the heaviness out of it and be like, it's a form of self expression, there's creativity to it. We can do whatever we want. And so yeah, sure. If you feel like a man and you identify with that, then great, have fun. And then people should respect it and treat you that way. But yeah, I think it's scary for people to think that there is an element of creativity.

Like it's scary to give yourself that power, you know? Yeah. It's good. It's scary to consider that there's an element of creativity in it. Oof. And it's just so amazing that you can get to like, oh, now I've got it. Now I've got it. Gender is not even a thing.

It's not even real. Yes, that has evolved. And then somebody's like, that's totally wrong. Yeah. Oh man. I mean, I wrote that book about sexuality and gender, and then I did a book tour

and I was going into high schools. And by the time the book came out, it was outdated. And I was using the wrong schools and by the time the book came out, it was outdated. And I was using the wrong terms and people were teaching me. So it's, you know, we just have to be all curious and interested and patient. And yeah, constantly curious, strong opinions. That is interesting. It's just any time that you kind of affix some kind of immutable to it is when you get

in trouble. If you're like, yes, it absolutely is horseshit. I know that with certainty. It's like maybe you're in trouble because if it is part of your creative expression, then someone might be certain about themselves in this moment. And maybe in the next moment, they have a different certainty about themselves. So maybe you get in trouble when you ascribe any kind of meaning or certainty for others. Sure.

Whereas if we just were more concerned about interrogating our own creativity and identity and only being concerned with that, then maybe that's where it would be rich. Yeah, there's a really interesting book called Can the Monster Speak? A speech given to a college of psychoanalysts by a trans man called Paul Preciado and that sort of rocked my world. It was really interesting, but he talks about how I think part of the reason people are so reactive is that we're still attached to this kind of Freudian way of thinking where our gender is a huge part of our identity and our psyche and this sort of 200 year old white guys being like, but you know, men want to fuck their mothers and like, that's a huge part of our identity and we have to undo that.

And then it's a much less big deal if you want to be in some gray area or you want to be a bit more fluid. Yeah. Because it doesn't have to be such a huge part of your personality and your cultural roles and things like that. Mm-hmm. And it can be more part of for some people. For sure.

Because I think we live in this world where you either, that has to define everything about you and you have to go out into the world and you're, you know, your first, your first stand up, you're gay, Mae. And you're like, no, I'm a comic. Why am I gay, Mae on stage? You know, or there's people like me who, because I never had to do any kind of interrogation of myself, because I was never asked to or forced to, It was just kind of like, assume the position, literally and figuratively. There is, I have an underdeveloped sense of that because I was just kind of like, check the box,

no questioning here. And so I think... Yeah, sister, imagine if you went on an interview and the first five questions that people asked you was about your sexuality. Right. You'd be like, what the fuck? But that's all that happens. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's what happened today. It's what happened today. Yeah. I do feel lucky that I've, like from when I could even think, I could sense that the things I was being told were immutable, objective truths didn't fit with how I felt inside. So that was very confusing. But I feel really grateful because it made me challenge all kinds of other things as well and learn about

myself more. I want to ask you what other things it helped you challenge and look at differently. And also, I just want to say, I think it's cool to think about for me, because you said maybe only be certain about yourself, and that hasn't worked for me. I want to not be ever certain about myself because I surprised the shit out of myself, you know, six years ago. Like you said it at one point, May, you don't have to be gay to be gay.

And that was for sure true for me. Like, yeah, totally. Right? You never know. And that's a beautiful thing about sexuality. It reminds me a little bit about faith, like with thinking about faith. It's just this like ongoing evolution of ideas that's fluid constantly. But what did this whole breaking down of everything in terms of gender and sexuality, what else did it help you deconstruct? Well, I think I had a kind of existential spiral in my teens and spun out and was a bad

teen. I think a lot of it came from that feeling of questioning the systems around me. I dropped out of school. I'm not recommending this, but I guess I saw options that other people weren't seeing. I saw that I could do comedy and I loved doing comedy. So I did that. And I don't think I would have done that at such a young age if I hadn't already been thinking what makes me happy and where do I fit in. Things like monogamy I've been recently,

I've been thinking a lot about and yeah. What do you think about that? It's working pretty well for everybody. So just wouldn't say. I'm shocked because the Davis suggests you're just straight up wrong about that. I know. I know. It is pretty wild.

I don't know. I listen to a lot of Esther Perel. I'm very into people doing what works for them and not reactively assuming that open relationships aren't as valid as closed ones. I think you just have to continually interrogate it and not get stuck. We only have one life, so if you're miserable or stuck, then there's other options.

There's such a gift in not fitting in. Like, I think this is what people don't... Like, when we think... We always joke and say our favorite people are queer people. But it's because there's some kind of personality that's forged by the gift of not being rejected by mainstream at first. Because you're like, oh, I guess if I can't join them, I'll just be free. Yeah, or you think, well, everyone in my class

is listening to boy bands and girl bands, but I can't find who I'm even supposed to be attracted to or identify with, so I guess I'm going to listen to Nine Inch Nails or the Pink Floyd. And then I'm kind of grateful that that happened. But yeah, I mean, there's drawbacks too, right? Then you end up with sort of battle wounds. But yeah, any kind of otherness, I think,

is a gift for sure. The creativity kind of seems at the core of all of this, because if you're getting at the place where you're like, well, what the world is telling me about gender is clearly horse shit, what else is horse shit? Okay, maybe this whole idea that I have to go to school for 12 years and then for four more and then to get the job that I hate, maybe that's horse shit. And and you start to get creative. And then even with your idea of monogamy, it is so wild

that there's this kind of compulsory monogamy as the option. Like where do you think the creativity shows up in relationships that makes different types of relationships possible? What is the creative way that you think? Is it about playing with jealousy? Is it about playing with like your ownership over the other person? What is the place to be creative that opens up different forms of relationship? I mean, I'm still figuring it out, but I think that where I've been most successful is where we've like constantly remembered that we're two visuals, and communicated well, and had a sense of humor about it, and not felt like we own each other's total metric of attraction and everything. I don't know. I'm not a particularly

jealous person. It turns me on when people are attracted to the person I'm with, or if they're flirting. I feel like it keeps me on my toes and I like that. I'm still figuring it out though. I think just communicating. I don't know. I mean, you guys are successfully doing relationship stuff. So you're the experts really. No, I have so much abandonment issues that monogamy is the only way for me. For sure. So like, I know that. I asked her even now, we're like six years married.

I'm like, are you ever gonna leave me? Please tell me you're never gonna leave. I have to start each, if I'm like, if I'm like, I need somebody to do the dishes, I have to start the conversation with, I'm not gonna leave you. I just need you to put your cup in the dishwasher. That's so funny.

Well, I sometimes wonder if my fear of codependency comes from a fear of being abandoned. Just don't let yourself get to that place because then what happens if it all falls apart? I've definitely, yeah, it ebbs and flows. Who knows? It's so hard to tell what part of our personality is a coping mechanism that was formed years ago and what's like our actual personality. You know what I mean?

Yep. Yeah. Totally get it. Are we just the sum of our coping mechanisms, basically? I think so. And that's what's the hard part when you're trying to get like, I'm trying to be the truest me like most authentic to myself. Am I like, am I just saying I want to be the most authentic reflection

of the accumulation of my trauma? Yes. Yeah. It's like, well, who would it totally? Who would I have been if I'd never met another person? If I'd grown up on a beach? Who would I have been? I don't know that I would have done comedy. I don't, I'm pretty introverted. I think I was trying to cheer up my mom probably,

like, you know, but it's worked out. You know. It all comes back to we're all just trying to cheer up our mom. Yeah, that's completely. Yeah. Totally. That's right.

Our mom or our dad, we're just trying to make them happy still. Damn. Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yeah. Every week on the Moth Podcast, we share stories that are funny, strange, heartbreaking, and above all, true.

I myself have been married for 56 years. Woo! Woo! Unfortunately to four different women. You can work out a whole lot of in the hours of Target. Follow and listen to The Moth on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. You do say you have an addictive personality, so Abby and I both, that's another reason we relate to you.

What is that like? Well, you know, now I'm just really vigilant about when things start to become habitual or start to dominate or start to feel like self-medicating. I always talked about it like I have this little shrimp in the back of my head that's this, and when it wakes up, it just devours everything else. And so I'm just trying to keep that shrimp asleep and like gently soothe it and keep it asleep so it doesn't wake up. And yeah, but I, I'm in a pretty good place now. I think it was a big thing for me was cause I had a big drug problem in my teens and then I got clean.

And so I always relegated thinking about addiction to just substances. And I thought, well, I had that problem and now I don't. And you know, I can never touch that substance again, but other than that, I'm all good. And then once I realized that addictive behavior permeates all aspects of life and relationships and that it's not just about substances and 12 step programs, then that was big. And then I tried to have just in general, a healthier, more balanced thing. I don't know. Now I do a lot of escape rooms and I try to get adrenaline healthy places.

So I do like horror escape rooms where there's like an actor dressed like a clown in a dungeon and you're trying to escape. It's psychotic. You're trying to create like the dopamine hit and they're like, yes. Is that why you do all the things? Yes, baby. That is risk. Like risk and drinking and drugs are like that.

It's producing the same chemical reactions in my brain. She's always hurtling herself down mountains and out of like just the escape room. Adrenaline junkie. Yeah. But I imagine a lot of athletes have that, right? Because that's the endorphins. I only just started getting into working out at all in the past few years and it, man, it feels good. I completely get it. Yeah.

This is where Wethead comes in for the rest of us who maybe aren't as thrill seekers. That's maybe your version, Glutton. You could try that. What is it? This is, I really recommend it. Especially with kids. It's a game called Wethead that it's just a hat that has a bucket of water on it. And then it's like Russian roulette where you pull out, you take turns pulling out and you trade the hat around and you pull out these pegs that are fastening the bucket and one of them is going to douse you. And it's very simple. I mean, it's called wet head. Like it just couldn't be more simple and fun.

And you chant wet head. Wet head. So if you have a coke problem, try wet head. Try wet head. Yes. It's going to work out for you. I bring it to dinner parties and stuff and people are like, do we have to play wet head tonight? I'm like, yes. It ruins someone's night. So I was lauding your parents and saying they people are like, do we have to play wet head tonight? I'm like, yes, it ruins someone's night. So I was lauding your parents and saying they were so amazing, but there's one little sentence

in your book that says, listen, they weren't perfect. There's reasons that I wash my face five times a day and have fear of abandonment. So let's go back to that. How did they fuck up and why did they make you wash your face five times a day and have abandonment issues? They kicked me out when I was 16. And I thought, you know, I don't know, I hit puberty. I had an amazing childhood. I'm so lucky and privileged. And then, yeah, just as soon as puberty hit, we butted heads a lot.

And I was doing drugs and I was not in a great place. And I think they reacted with rage, like at being lied to. And just sort of shut down and they did a tough love thing that was difficult that I think they probably regret aspects of. We haven't really talked about it. It's very strange. We're so close now, but we don't really talk about that time. But it must be very hard to be a parent. It is. It is. Yeah, I can't imagine. And everybody now, I really see them as three-dimensional people

with doing their best in the moment with their own trauma and things like that. So yeah, but it was tough for sure. I'm sure we have lots of people listening. I mean, I think people reassessing and actually believing that they can be comfortable in their own bodies because of stories like yours, because of progress, people that more and more families are going to be in a situation like your parents where their kid says, no, what could be done well in that situation? Like you once said that when a parent finds out their kid is gay,

they should just pretend that they just found a four leaf clover. Like how do parents do that with their kid? Laminate it. Laminate your queer kid. Yeah, my parents have always been great about sexuality and gender. I think that stuff's just about listening

and not doing that thing of going, oh my God, well, I'm fine with it, but I'm stuff's just about listening and not doing that thing of going, oh my God, well, I'm fine with it, but I'm just so worried about you and the world and immediately making it negative and heavy. And I would avoid doing that. It's the same. People feel so comfortable doing that. I always talk about adopting. Like I would love to adopt. And it's so crazy how comfortable people are going, oh, you bring it up and you go, I'd love to adopt. And they go, ah, it could be really hard. I'm just, and you're like, yeah, I know.

But like, what's the alternative? No one adopts. Like, it could be hard anyway. It's crazy how comfortable people are going to that negative fear place. But my main thing is with, if you're a kid's doing drugs, I feel strongly about that stuff. If you feel like they're self-medicating, you want to create an environment where they can talk to you and come to you

and not feel like they have to hide it from you. And I think the more we understand addiction and where that comes from, because so many people do drugs and not everybody gets addicted to drugs, right? There's something going on there underneath usually. So it's maybe having empathy and looking at not the method of soothing, but why is that person self-soothing? But I guess it must be impossible as a parent. You'd feel so worried and betrayed and all that. But yeah, I think just trying not to get angry. And I also think that what I have found in parenting, because I just got to parenting seven years ago

when Glenn and I got together. That's amazing. And what I have found is I have a fear inside of me of being a poor parent. Our kids are amazing, but if they ever have an issue, I am now projecting that I am the reason why this issue is happening. And so that could cause, I'm sure there's a lot of parents out there who might not be so introspective to be able to, to let that feeling come up and not act on it, whether it's kicking your kid out of the house

or punishing them or grounding them. I was brought up in authoritarian home where what my mom said went. And I have to fight some of those inclinations and urges that I have and then also fight this, this fear of me fucking up my own kids in the moment. And it's almost impossible to do. I need to have somebody who can call me out on that. I mean, maybe not in the moment. Right, I have learned that. Conversations later, that's like, hey, that sounded a little bit like fear. Your mom, rejection.

And so then I've had to go back and apologize for our kids for some of my instinctive reactions to some stuff that they've brought. It's the hardest and most confusing and it changes every day. You're like, oh, my kid is, I think that they've got it. And then the next day something else happens. I think all of the parenting stuff comes down to, like, if you could look at your kid as a human instead of a referendum on you or reflection on you.

Yeah. I think that whole thing, that's like what you're saying, Abby. It's, it's like, you are going through this thing, therefore that means something about me. Yes. Or you are doing amazing and are an amazing athlete, therefore that says something about me. Like you suck.

That's an indictment of me. You're amazing. That's a compliment of me. When actually none of those things are true. It's so, yeah. It's just a person who's living in your house. Yeah, that's so interesting. If you change the language in your head in the moment to like, how would I react if I was a mentor? Then some of the emotions not attached to

it and you can, yeah, but I mean, it must be impossible. I think you have to, everyone knows like I will fuck up my kid no matter what. And then you go from there. Yeah. Except for a friend calls and says, my kid came out, my kid is non-binary, my kid's whatever. I do think that's a bit of a referendum on parenting in a good way. My first thing is already always like,

congratulations as parents, because you've created some kind of environment where this kid feels safe telling you who they are, or even exploring it, even being like, I actually am going inside and not just listening to, there's some kind of badass, free, full of integrity environment to even be presenting that. Yeah, definitely.

You use the word rage to describe the reaction to that period of your life. I'm just curious what your relationship to rage is now and what role that plays in your life, either inside of you or people around you. I think it would probably do me a lot of good to do a primal scream in the desert. I always fantasize about going to the desert and doing an insane primal scream. I definitely feel that and

feel like I suppress anger a lot. I'm not a very angry person. I don't know. I've had periods. I made a show, a sort of semi-autobiographical show, and it made me look a lot at my life and my teens and things like that. And after making it, I had a period of healthy rage, for sure, and then got some therapy. Anger is an interesting one. I just grew up on Star Wars. So I was like, anger leads to the dark side.

And to be a comedian, it must be confusing because everybody puts you in the funny box, happy, funny and then happy, but like comedians I have found in large, like super in touch with their feelings, all of the sad feelings too. So I'm not surprised that there's some stuff that's happening underneath.

So I asked you before what things we could do or not do with our kids and you said, don't bring them the, I love you, but I'm just so scared for what's coming to you. I think that's so good. That's just such a good little tip. So in terms of other things we should or shouldn't do.

So let's say you were being interviewed by three podcasters and let's say that those podcasters had just seen a post that you had put up where you were on a red carpet with Elliot Page. And let's just say that those podcasters were a little bit obsessed with Elliot Page and you. And so let's just say that they had studied those pictures really well and seen two toothbrushes

in one of those pictures. Would it be appropriate or just completely not to ask you if you and Elliot Page are friends or the kind of special friends that might require toothbrush carrying? I need to look at this toothbrush thing. No, I'm just getting the photo up. I met Elliot when I was 19 actually in a bar in Toronto and we were both sort of sketchy Canadian people and then we reconnected a few years ago and no, we are very much bros but I'm kind of enjoying the speculation. So I think that that is the

reflection of one piece of us. That is what I said! That is what I said! That is what I said! That is what I said! And I said, that is not a reflection. There's no way that's a reflection. It's two effing toothbrushes. That's what I said. I said it. I think, yeah, we were getting ready in Elliot's hotel

and I think that's one toothbrush. But look, he's hot. He's super hot. It was fun being his date for sure for the night. So you heard it here first. Elliot is still available. Not sure about me. Okay, we're gonna find out if that's an appropriate question to ask. I'm always available. No, I do try to keep that part of my life slightly just because then

it's so embarrassing if you're like, yeah, I'm so happy and settled and then it ends and you're like, no, erase that. It's so embarrassing. Nothing's immutable, May. We already talked about it. Exactly. Just create an expression.

I just moved to LA in May. I've been in London for 12 years and that was a big change and it's been fun being kind of a free agent in LA. What has that been like? I didn't know you moved back to LA. I just knew you were in London forever. What has that transition been like? It's been so long.

I grew up in Toronto and then I moved. I was in all my twenties in England and then I don't know, I'm trying to get to know this city. It's crazy. I don't have a driver's license or drive. So it's kind of a tricky city in that sense. But I'm making lots of friends. It was so cool meeting Tig and Stephanie.

And then you had them on your podcast. And then I'm doing improv with Stephanie tonight. No way. I saw that. Yeah, they're so great. Both of them. And yeah, so I'm trying to manifest my dream friend group. And yeah, we got to hang out.

Yes, absolutely. I love Tig and Stephanie. Do you know what we talked, Tig, I couldn't figure out Tig's email sense of humor. And so every time Tig wrote to me, I thought she was mad at me. Yeah, I can totally see that.

Yeah. And so I kept telling my sister, I never do this with people's emails, but I kept reading them to my sister and saying, is she mad at me? So I'd have to create responses that could go either way. Where you could be playing into the joke or you could also be apologizing. Exactly.

That's really funny. It was really confusing for a while. So what do you do now? What's next? What are you into? What are you do now? What's next? What are you into? What are you working on? What are you trying to let go of?

What's 2023 gonna be like for you? Those are all good questions. I'm about to record a new standup special. Nice. A Netflix special, and I'm excited about that. And then I'm writing this new Netflix show and then two movies I'm writing. And yeah, just having fun.

Trying to enjoy my new body and you know, and it felt good wearing a suit the other day, you know. Abby talked about the suit. Abby's obsessed with the suit. I was actually talking to these two about how my sexuality is in some way that suit. Like, but it's not because I'm thinking, ooh, I want to, you know, fuck who's in that suit. I'm thinking that looked like something I want to wear to feel sexy. So I think that sexuality is both,

but the way that we see it and the way that we feel about our own body in it. Yeah. Completely. Yeah. Completely. Yeah. Completely. And then I did have a question. I wear suits and we have to go to an event on Thursday night and I'm thinking I'm gonna wear a proper tux. I've got a tux shirt, but I don't want to wear a bow tie or a tie. Me neither.

There's something about it that makes it, that then I will for sure for the rest of the night be called a man, which is fine. That doesn't like necessarily offend me, but like I also just use the pronouns she, her. So is it with like a proper tuck shirt with like the wings at the front, is it okay to open the top button

and just go a little bit cash or should I button the top button with no bow tie? I mean, I think you can do whatever you want. You're happy. You're the coolest. You're like people, they're just lucky that you're there. That's a great answer. I don't know anything about fashion. I know that Gucci dressed me for that event. I've never been dressed by anyone and And it was so thrilling. And they were a little bummed that I wasn't wearing a tie

for sure, but I couldn't do it. I feel constricted. I just, yeah. And so it felt good to, but that wasn't a tux shirt. So I don't know. I think you can hope. No, it'll look like at the end of a wedding, you know, that like slightly more relaxed.

Yeah. It looks confident is what it looks like. Yeah. It looks relaxed and confident. I was thinking about maybe getting a bow tie and just hanging it low. Yeah. I was just thinking that. That's pretty cool. It's like y'all showed up for the party, but I showed up for the after party. Yeah. Yeah. I just can't rock a bow tie, but Elliot looked amazing. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I just can't rock a bow tie, but Elliot looked amazing. I'm so jealous of people who can, but I just said for whatever reason, I'm like, it's too much. Close on a whole thing. It's almost too formal. I'm like in a proper tux, but I'm like a bow tie or a tie. It's too formal.

Completely. It's too far, people. It's too far. I want to get to a place where I can be adventurous and dress like Harry Styles and wear like, but I'm still trying to figure out all that. But yeah, one day I'll be wearing sequins. In the last minute we have here, what's an idea or a belief or a way of being that you're trying to leave behind? I'm trying not to do things out of habit. I think it's Emily Dickinson,

there's a phrase that she wrote that's like when the skeleton of habit upholds the human frame. And it just was so bleak. And I think about how so much of our life, we just are on autopilot. And even things like just the way I walk to work, like take a different route. It's that thing about creativity, just making sure everything's a conscious choice. I have to get better at saying no to people and be less of a workaholic. I've been doing a lot of music and I'm really shy about it because I'm not very good, and it makes me very terrified.

And I think, well, I'm a comedian. I can't do it. It's so embarrassing. And I've been trying to go, well, I can get rid of that label too. You know what I mean? And just do things that scare me all the time. What kind of music? Yep.

Like emo, you know, I don't know, embarrassing acoustic guitar music. So good. I love it. Yeah, it makes me happy. And yeah, I don't want to monetize it. I just want to do it and and experiment with it. Yeah. Well, it's important not only because it's going to be great for you, but also all the people in the world that look like you that don't want to adhere to

or want to look to the boy bands or the girl, you know, like I think it's pressure. But I think it's important that there's people that look like us that are actually doing things in all the industries. That's so cool. Yeah, I do. I mean, growing up, there was no one that looked like us and it is exciting. But then you don't want to get paralyzed by the pressure. The pressure. You must do it for the sake of the future. No, you just want to have some joy with it. I get that because I'm a writer, but I secretly inside of me just want to be a poet. Oh, I thought you were going to say musician.

No, no, no. Or a rock star. I mean, you know the poet thing. But like, I'm so scared to be like, wait, am I going to write a book of poems? Like no one's going to... You should. Completely. I totally relate. Yeah. The only difference between being a poet and not being a poet is writing poetry, right? It's the same with, yeah. Exactly. That's good. May, you're just a damn dream.

Yep. You are. Thank you. So this has been so nice. I last night, I told my friend I was doing it and she was like, are you going to cry? And I was like, am I? I don't know. Did people cry? And she's like, I don't know. It could get deep. And I was like, oh my God. But yeah, you guys are so amazing. And thanks so much for having me. Yeah. We'd love to hang out sometime and show you nothing in LA because we don't know anything about LA. Let's have a games night. Yeah, that's all I want to do. What?

What? What? Yeah, yeah. And coming from somebody who didn't have any representation to look towards, I just think what you're doing and all the ways that you're doing it, your work matters. And it's changing people's perspectives. And so I just want to thank you so much,

because you're helping me even. Yeah. Now you got me. I'm going I want to thank you so much. Cause you're helping me even, you know. I know you got me. I'm going to cry. Thank you. I just think that I know that you've, you've had to forge yourself to be in the position that you are in so much of your life

and have had to deal with a lot of ups and downs, but here we are. And what you're doing is heroic to put your work out into the world and do it in the way that you are. It's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you so much and ditto. Yeah, thank you. I also think it's very cool that you're inspiring in a different way too is the whatever the opposite of creative scarcity is because what I admired so much is that after two seasons of Feel Good, you even though like could have kept that going and kept going creatively, you were like,

no, that is how I want to end that. And I believe that there will be abundance for me in other things. And I think that was so special and probably gave a lot of folks so special and probably gave a lot of folks the invitation to do that when mostly in Hollywood, it's very hard to stop something that you can keep doing. So, cool. Thanks. Thanks to you on that. That was awesome. Yeah.

I didn't want to torture that couple anymore. I felt like I left them in a good place and I would have been too mean to... You'd have to break them up again if you kept going and it would be awful. Yeah. God, give somebody a happy ending. We love you, Mae. The rest of you, your responsibility this week is to figure out three things that are your sexuality. Yes, completely. It doesn't matter what you are.

Everybody has a sexuality. So you figure out three things. We love you. When things get hard this week, don't forget, we can do hard things. Thank you, May. Bye. Thank you so much. Yay!

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We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and this show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. You