We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Find Good Love After Bad with Lily Collins (Best Of)

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

Today we’re talking about how to build healthy relationships — with ourselves and others — after enduring toxic relationships with both. 1. Signs of emotional toxicity in romantic relationships – and what finally made Lily get out of her unhealthy relationship. 2. How to begin reprogramming your brain after leaving a toxic relationship in order to trust yourself and other people again. 3. The process that caused Lily to become the smallest, quietest version of herself – and how she recovered into her biggest, brightest self. 4. What healthy conflict looks and feels like – and Lily’s new script for communicating when her old triggers arise. CW: eating disorders, emotionally toxic relationships About Lily:  Lily Collins is a Golden Globe nominated actress, author of the international bestselling book “Unfiltered: No Shame, No Regrets Just Me”, and a philanthropist. Collins can currently be seen in the Netflix series “Emily in Paris,” for which she received her second Golden Globe nomination.Lily launched Case Study Films alongside her husband Charlie McDowell. Lily's philanthropic endeavors extend to participating in various “We Day” events and the GO Campaign. Born in West Sussex, England Collins moved to the United States at age six and currently resides in Los Angeles. TW: @lilycollins IG: @lilyjcollins To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey Spotify, this is Javi. My biggest passion is music, and it's not just sounds and instruments. It's more than that to me. It's a world full of harmonies with chillers. From streaming to shopping, it's on Prime. Here we are. Oh my God.

This is a surreal moment for me. I feel like I'm on another planet. Oh my God. It's this planet. It's so good. How are you? I'm so good. I'm so much better now that your faces have popped up.

This is a total dream come true. I literally hear your voices in my head all the time. All three of you when I'm driving, when I'm having a moment, you pop in and now I get to see your faces. I guess we're just started. We've already started. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We're already here. We have just seen the face of our dearest Lily Collins. And you and I, Lily, have been waiting for this moment for a long while. And Pod Squad, you should know that every once in a while,

I get a text from Lily that says, I just listened to the last episode and here are my thoughts and feelings about it. Yes, it's true. You keep me company on long drives. And during those days or moments when you forget that you can do hard things, you keep me company on long drives. And during those days or moments when you forget that you can do hard things, you know, and you keep me company, you keep me motivated. Sometimes I cry, sometimes I laugh, sometimes I laugh while I'm crying. All of the feelings

all of the time. And yeah, I just, I always want to just tell people when they say something or do something that touches me or means a lot. I never expect responses, but I feel like sometimes those are the moments when you need to share. And you always so sweetly respond. Means a lot. Thank you, Lily. Well, Lily Collins.

Isn't she the sweetest? Yeah. And she's also really smart and deep. And just hold on. You'll see. Lily Collins is a Golden Globe nominated actress, author of the international bestselling book, Unfiltered, No Shame, No Regrets, Just Me,

and a philanthropist. Collins can currently be seen in the Netflix series, Emily in Paris, Just a Delightful Romp. Which I've done it. I've never said those words before in my life, but it really is. For which she received her second Golden Globe nomination. Lily, amazing. Lily launched case study films alongside her husband, Charlie McDowell.

Lily's philanthropic endeavors extend to participating in various We Day events and the GEO campaign. Born in West Sussex, England, Collins moved to the United States at age six and currently resides in Los Angeles. Is it Go campaign or G.O.? I mean, it's Go campaign. But you know what? G.O. spells it. So we can just go with either one.

Lily, this is my sister Amanda. And this is my sister. I literally have seen your beautiful faces on the little squares on Instagram as well. So I feel very familiar with you and you Abby. So wonderful to meet you and having read your books Glennon during COVID, during the beginning of lockdown, I feel like I know a little bit of the wonderful journey that you've all been on together. And I'm so grateful to have been able to read about your experiences and to continue to see all the adventures and the growth.

We had the same reaction to you because of knowing about your journey and it's something that hit me particularly intimately because it's something that I haven't talked a lot about in my life, but this idea of when we're really young having toxic relationships that we only, at least for me, begin to unearth and really see in an objective way. The older we get and your journey through that and being so brave and talking about it, I think it's helpful for so many, including me.

And then your path to now where you just got married and every relationship has its things. So we're not going to idealize anything, but the path from an unhealthy relationship to a healthy one is a big journey and it's not a linear path. I was just gonna use one of my favorite terms, which is nonlinear. And you just literally said it before me. It's so true. Someone used that recently and said,

you know, it's just a nonlinear journey. And I went, God, I love that so much. It really is. It perfectly defines the journey because you never know when it's going to be up, you never know when it's going to be down, you don't know when you're going to experience that setbacks, going one step forward,

two steps back or vice versa, like you just don't know and the idea of it being a nonlinear takes away that pressure of it being perfect right away and accepting the fact that it's nonlinear is so freeing in a sense. But yeah, you kind of said it like, you don't know what's necessarily happening when you're in it because you're so far in it and part of you wants to be there. At some points, all of me wanted to be there, but then my body was physically reacting in ways that I've never experienced.

I, like my skin was breaking out and I was having these panic attacks and I had kidney infections and all of this stuff that I'm going, I've never really had bad acne. I've never had heart palpitations like this. All of these weird physical manifestations, but I didn't at that time of my life put the two and two together as saying like,

your body is telling you this is not something you're supposed to be in. And it's only until this part of my life when I've really been able to associate physical manifestations and emotional feelings and situations into one understanding. And a lot of that now seems quite obvious to me, you know, in relation to this relationship.

And a lot of it was, he chose me. So that's cool. That's a big deal. And I leaned into what it was that he wanted me to be like, wanted me to say or not say where, not where, do not do. There was a lot of control, a lot of emotional abuse. And, you know, when you get told something over and over again, and you're at an impressionable age, you become conditioned to believe that that is what it is and you are what they say you are. And it's confusing.

It's so confusing. And I think the age thing is so interesting, Lilly. Of course we know interpersonal violence in relationship happens across every race, across every age, all of it. But we don't, I think we don't tend to talk about it when it happens in younger relationships because it's like that's supposed to be like laughed off. That isn't as formative as it is. It's only a legitimate relationship if you're an adult. But when we think about it, young women, 18 to 24, are actually at the highest rates of intimate personal violence of any group. And for high school students, one in three of them experience physical or sexual

violence. And I think it's so important to bring this conversation to those younger years. That's when I experienced it. I don't know when you did, but I think I was like 14 to 17 when I was in that. And that can seem illegitimate, but it was very big in setting up the foundation for who I chose next and next and next. Were you-

Of course it is. I don't know if you talk about your age, but were you in that young group? I was early 20s. Early 20s, so it's still formative. It totally applies to me. And it's interesting, when I was in high school, I was a part of a peer support program at my school,

which completely changed my life. It was basically teen therapy. And I trained to be a teen therapist. And every Monday, we would meet in a group of the same students from 10th to 12th grade. There were no adults in the room. So it felt completely freeing because at that age, anybody over the age of 18 felt way too old

to be privy to my information and what I was going through. And so having the same group of kids every week for the entire year to be able to openly discuss our problems, issues, confusing things, exciting things, of course, unless there was a red flag where you were hurting yourself, you were hurting someone else or someone was hurting you, then you brought it to the school therapist.

But otherwise it was completely student run. And it was an amazing opportunity to connect during those formidable high school years on topics that you would think that person and I have nothing in common, whereas in fact, maybe the situation is different, but the feelings are the same. And if we can connect on the feelings

and know that we're all the same in that way, it'll make A, high school a little more doable, and B, you wouldn't create a stigma and a shame around certain feelings that I think do unfairly get that reputation. And it's interesting that I then found myself in a situation that I could have used that group's help. But I was out of high school. I wasn't yet in actual therapy. But

I want to say one of the gifts of the domino effect of this relationship was it led me to therapy. And it was the breaking point for me to go, I really need to talk about this. I was outside of the relationship at that point, but I had so many lingering feelings. And to be completely honest, up until two weeks ago, I realized I still have lingering feelings and we are 10 years past it. Oh, I mean, absolutely. Thank you for saying that. That's so honest and so real.

Sometimes when people are like, do you have a healthy relationship with yourself? I'm like, well, I feel like from 10 a.m. to 10 20, I was having a really healthy relationship. You know, but like if you ask me about 10 45 to 11 15, it's not... But Lily, I'm so glad you brought up that peer group, because what I have noticed about relationships that are toxic... I also want for the four of us to talk about what that means. What does it mean to be in a bad relationship, a toxic relationship, an abusive relationship? I can find myself in them now. I just had an interesting relationship in work

that was totally unhealthy. Now here's what happened. I found myself isolated with this person, and we created this really little toxic situation because there was just the two of us. And it's this weird thing that happens when it's just the two people and you have decided for some reason that you're not going to discuss it in the outer world. I don't think it's something that just happens to people who are weak or who are this or

that. It can happen to any of us at any time and it always gets bigger and more dangerous in isolation, which is why that high school group or having some of the equivalent of it now, because the way I got out of it was I described it to two friends. And two of my friends were like, what the fuck are you doing?

That's not normal. And then I thought, oh, had I been talking about this with a larger group, it's like the larger accountability groups remind you of what's normal and what's not when you forget. That's so important. That's completely important. And actually, now in my life, having

my wonderful supportive husband, we do communicate and talk about so much that he will be the first person that goes, um, you know, that's not normal, right? Or that's pretty fucked up or that must feel weird. And it's like, Oh, actually, yeah, if I were to write down what I just said and reread it to myself, I'd go, that's crazy. Like, why am I putting up with that? Or why do I think that's okay? And you're so right at that age, you're fearful of speaking up,

but in those times that I did, or as a teen therapist heard other people speaking up and watched their face as like five people in the room said, oh my God, I felt that that or I'm in that situation. And you watch their face receive that. It's the most beautiful moment to witness someone realizing they're not alone or they would use the word crazy. And I'm like, just stop using that word.

Like feelings cannot make you crazy. Like that term, we can joke about it and use it But when you take it to heart and actually feel like this feeling associates with you being quote-unquote crazy That will come with you throughout your life and you will feel like that feeling is not okay to feel so when you're an adult and you're feeling that you shut down and you hibernate and you You kind of freeze, like this like fight or flight panic thing. And like you were saying that 10 a.m. I'm fine and 10 20,

I'm not. I constantly have those moments where I wake up and I'm like, day is gonna be great, I'm gonna be fine. And I try to work through all of this in the moment now because it's just so important to try and understand it while it's happening, but it is really hard, especially if you haven't had your coffee yet. And all of a sudden I'm having a moment, and Charlie is, my husband's like,

okay, that look, you've done that deer in the headlights thing, what's happening? Something's happening. And it can just switch and it's so important to talk it out. Even though if you don't have the words, because so many times I don't have the words, it literally won't come out.

And I think so much of that to go back, what makes a situation toxic and it can be, like you said, it can be in work, it can be in romance, it can be a friendship, it can be someone you literally run into at the coffee shop that you've never met before and you leave and go, oh, well, that felt awful. But for me, my romantic toxic relationship with a lot of verbal and emotional abuse and being made to feel very small, he would call me little Lily and, oh, you should be little Lily.

And like, he'd use awful words about me in terms of what I was wearing and would call me a whore and all these things. There were awful words and then there were belittling words and it became this extremely belittling, I became this extremely belittling, I became quite silent and comfortable in silence and feeling like I had to make myself small to feel super safe.

And my wonderful therapist has now taught me so much about in evolutionary times and kind of the experience through thousands of years ago with this most simplest forms of predator and prey. When prey felt threatened, they made themselves feel as small as possible, possibly by not eating, by making themselves look as least juicy and enticing as possible. And that's where they felt the safest because the predator were no longer a threat. And then you cut to thousands of years later,

I am not thinking about predator and prey, but it is that same feeling of panic and anxiety and wanting to just get by and feel safe in some way. And that anxiety was heightened just get by and feel safe in some way. And that anxiety was heightened in my toxic relationship completely. That's the panic attack manifestations, all of this, and my body reacting, like I said.

And it's not until now that I kind of can recognize that fight or flight feeling or the feeling of needing to hibernate. The situations are completely different 10 years ago to now. and recognize that fight or flight feeling or the feeling of needing to hibernate. The situations are completely different 10 years ago to now, and also my ancestors of thousands of years ago. None of that applies to me.

I'm not looking to hibernate, but the feeling of panic is the same. And that panic is what I can still get triggered by now. Even if I'm in the most healthy relationship, there can be a moment that happens throughout the day where history comes back like that. It's like a millisecond or shorter than a millisecond and your gut reacts, your heart drops, your heart starts beating. And all of a sudden you're taken back to that moment where they said that thing to you 10 years ago,

but you're not in that situation now. And that's the trigger, and it's fucking hard. It's awful. Yeah, that was beautiful. This episode is brought to you by Samsung Galaxy. Ever captured a great night video, only for it to be ruined by that one noisy talker? With audio erase on the new Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra, you can reduce or remove unwanted noise and relive your favorite moments without the distractions. And that's not all. New Galaxy AI features, like NowBrief, will give you personalized insights

based on your day schedule so that you're prepared no matter what. Pre-order the Samsung Galaxy S25 Ultra now at Samsung.com. You must remember this as the podcast dedicated to stories from the secret and forgotten histories of 20th century Hollywood. Stories of sex, murder, institutional racism, bad men, sad women, fascist gossip colonists, and much more. Our new season is called The Old Man Is Still Alive, and it's about directors like Alfred Hitchcock and John Ford who got started in the silent era,

but we're still making movies in the psychedelic 60s. Follow and listen to You Must Remember This on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to go along that lines because I think it's really important what you're talking about. And I'm sure that there's a lot of people listening that can totally relate to that experience of being triggered. I'm in a position where I can actually see the trigger happen on Glennon. And so my question is, how does Charlie interact with you when he feels or sees a trigger happen to you?

What are ways that he helps you through those moments where you're feeling triggered? Is he helpful? I think it'd be really helpful for our listeners to have some language around something, a way that he interacts with you. Well, I've never had someone other than Charlie witness me in that state, probably because I've never felt comfortable enough

to be in that state knowing that that person's not gonna leave. So I've probably existed in that panic or those moments of being triggered and I've probably shut down before, but I shut down and didn't feel the feelings because I was afraid that if I did, they would see me in a different way and they'd leave. Absolutely, that's your crazy, you're crazy, you're crazy.

100%, I'm like, oh, you're crazy, you're crazy. 100%. I'm like, oh, they're never gonna wanna see this. So is that what you mean by hibernating? Yeah, I freeze. So it's like a fight or flight. It's like a deer in the headlights, freeze. Apparently my eyes go quite big. And I just have this look on my face

where I don't have the words to articulate what I need to say. My brain moves so fast. I'm thinking all the time to articulate what I need to say. My brain moves so fast. I'm thinking all the time to the point of exhaustion sometimes and that's something I'm also working on because I have these like voices where I'm just always kind of talking out scenarios. And so if something happens where I get triggered

and I start feeling something, my initial instinct or reaction is, I need to think about this to exhaustion before I can find the words to articulate to Charlie or to somebody because they may not understand until I can actually eloquently articulate in paragraph form. As if I'm in a courtroom and I'm presenting my case for having this feeling. I need for having this feeling. I need to justify this feeling.

100 percent. And I'm so used to having to kind of have the perfect words to say it. So I will wait an hour, a day, a week. You know what? Maybe I won't even get back to it and I'll just pass. And so I think I think I've I've had these moments in the past, but never felt like I was in a safe enough place to show it in the moment, or the person wasn't as aware nor knew me well enough to see that look and know that there's something happening.

So when I'm in one of those moments, it is so clear to Charlie who can read me like a book and he calls it out in the moment, calls it out. And when I say calls it out, that can sometimes have a bad connotation when someone says like, why are you calling me out? No, this is what like healthy conversation and healthy communication can feel like

when someone can lovingly bring to your attention or call out something that doesn't feel right or that they maybe don't agree with or that they wanna help you with, it may feel uncomfortable, but it's for the best. And so when he says to me, what's going on, what happened? Is it something I said? Are you feeling some sort of way?

Cause that just shifted very quickly. Sometimes I'll say, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. It's like, OK, you're not fine. I know you're not fine. Let's talk about it. And I have gotten better at saying, if I truly feel like I need to take a moment, I will say.

You're right. There is something that just happened. I'm feeling some sort of way. I'm actually not at the place right now to properly articulate what I'm feeling. I can tell you the feelings. I know you wanna help and you wanna know them. I promise I'll get back to you because I know in the past sometimes I said I will

and then I don't and it goes unnoticed and then it gets not talked about and then it gets projected somewhere else. So I totally get that. But in this exact moment, I would really like to take some space and some time. And I know for anyone listening, that may actually sound like an untrue conversation. No, it does not.

But I am that person now. I will say it that way because I know that he needs to know that I'm taking accountability for the fact that it is true. I also know that he needs to know I'll get back to him. And I need him to understand that I need the space and the time. So good. But if I'm having a real moment that I do need to talk it out, like three mornings ago, everything was fine.

And then I got off the phone and he came in and he just looked at me and I had that stare. And I said, I'm fine. And then I went, you know what? Actually. And then I started talking and then it all came out and, and it's a non-judgmental space, right? Like Abby, when you're saying that you can see it happen, I think knowing that you're

safe, knowing that you're not being judged and knowing that you're safe, knowing that you're not being judged, and knowing that you're not going anywhere provides the space to feel comfortable enough to kind of blurt everything out. And you know that unless it is something that you or Charlie has said, it's not personal. It's me going through my stuff. It's you, Glennon, going through what you're thinking

and feeling and knowing it's okay to just blurt it all out and maybe the other person, Charlie, will help me articulate it in a way that makes sense. And also, like you said, Glennon, about when you talk through things to your friends or to your loved ones or to your partner or whoever it may be and they can so clearly see that something is wrong or fucked up or messed

up or messy. It helps give you clarity in the moment. And sometimes I end up laughing and going, Oh my God, thank you. Cause I would have spent the whole day spiraling. I mean, Lily, I think this is the point. I'm trying to figure out what the point of having friends is. No, I am. And I'm learning it now. I think I have always thought that friendship was a burden. Because what I did with people is I would get to anybody,

partner, friend, whoever, and they would say, how are you? And I would give them a report on maybe a problem that I might've had, how I worked it all out, how everything's fine right now, and here's my report. But what I never did was say anything that I was thinking or worried about right now, I'm struggling with, I'm scared. Unfinished business, yeah, something that you're... Never!

One of my kids said to me recently, do you know that when you're with people, you can talk about what you're actually thinking? And I was like, what? No, we're just reporting back and forth on all of the low, so many things that we have fixed. So this idea that I could do what you're doing, like say, I don't know what's going on right now.

I just feel scared. I think, Abby, the thing you just said reminds me of something that so and so used to say to me. And so it's kind of not about what you just said, but it kind of is about what you just said. You know, it's like that sitting in that trigger place is such a vulnerable invitation. Yeah.

And it's tricky to see that I might have caused a trigger and to not take that as personally, because like you said, Lily, it's not as personal. It's bringing up some sort of pass. And so the first part of our relationship, I was like, I've done something wrong, and then I go into a shame spiral. And it didn't help that I was like,

yes, you have done something wrong. Like I didn't figure out for a while that I was also responsible for all the things coming up. There are so many huge steps between being in a relationship like the one you're in and being able to, X number of years later, say I actually need some time to think through this. I mean, that's a revolution because when you think about the whole point of toxic relationships is that first of all, we were saying earlier about like it's important for people to be able

to reflect back to you, that's not normal. But in a way, the perniciousness of toxic relationships is like, that's the very point of them. Yes. In my experience, we're not normal. No one can understand us. You and I are the only one that can understand what's happening in this little ecosystem

and everyone else doesn't understand it. So they're gonna tell us it's not normal. But it's, so like everyone outside of the relationship is a threat to your relationship. And then in your relationship, the other person is a threat to you. But in this like really weird Stockholm syndrome, where you're trying to make it make sense. So and you lose your personhood, right? There's the idea.

Yeah, completely. Your identity is completely rocked. Exactly. And then 10 years later, you would have enough personhood to say, I need to take some time because there would be no time to take. There would be no person to go back to to confer with and make sense of it. If you were in your old way of thinking, because there was no separate person. There was only you in how you related to that person because you dissolve in them. Yet you aren't given the space or the ability to individuate. And at that time, if you're in that,

you said the late teenage, early 20 years, that's when you're so wrapped up with one other person and you're being encouraged to quiet all the outside noise because that's not good. Your friends know, your parents know, like, let's just have it be us. And part of you is going, oh, great. Okay. And then part of you wants to reach out, but then there stops being the ability and the outreach for that. And you're only mirrored with what you're seeing

and that person is telling you who you are. You are conditioned to start believing it. And then once you're out of it, you are rocked. There's a sense of a self-identity crisis in a sense. I've been this for so long. What am I? What do I like? What do I find funny?

What do I want to eat? What do I want to wear? Where do I want to go? What do I want to look at every day? And you're going, I don't know. And that can make you freeze too. Because I mean, now it's like, once you get out of something like that, there can be a Renaissance where you go,

I'm going to try everything. I want to see who I am. What do I like, once you get out of something like that, there can be a Renaissance where you're going to try everything. I want to see who I am. What do I like? What I don't like? But there's also a scary factor to it where you aren't having that person to rely on anymore for answers. And even if they weren't healthy answers, they were answers that you became used to. And it delays that individuating process.

And you also have to fight against what you have become to believe, which is anything that you think independent of me is stupid and is unreliable and doesn't make any sense. So when you go out and try to figure out what you are, you're like, I think I like this, but I'm stupid. So how do I know? Yeah. And there's the idea that you

can't do things on your own. So you're always going to need me. So good luck trying. And it's like, of course you're going to feel rocked. Of course you're going to feel like what you did, which is completely second guessing everything. Feeling this sense of guilt. If you do do anything on your own, you can like celebrate it for a second and then it's like, Oh God, well, was I supposed to do that on my own? It's just so complicated and exhausting. And that does take a while to rebuild. And then now being in a relationship where I've never felt more celebrated or encouraged to find even more of my identity through discovery and adventure and also failure. Like it's okay to try something and it doesn't work out. Like I did a pottery class, loved it, didn't create the coolest bowl.

So maybe it's like not for me. Oh my gosh, I want to do that. You know what? By the way, so fun. Yeah. It is way, so fun. It is really fun. But it's okay to keep discovering yourself. We don't have to have everything figured out

and you don't have to enjoy everything that your person does either, but let's just keep trying and finding what version of yourself you are now. Does it feel big like you talk about in your toxic relationship that you felt very small and then even, you know, the pod squad can't see you, but when you're talking about your relationship right now with Charlie,

your body gets bigger. You're waving your arms. You're talking about expanding and it's your body's getting bigger as you're talking about it. Does it feel expansive? I'm trying to figure out how did you end up from the small place to the big place? How did you get out of that bad one? Because we always say like first the pain, then the waiting, then the rising. So like, how did you get out of that relationship

where you were feeling so small in the smallness? I will say in that specific relationship, friends and family intervened and said, this is not normal. Even though I didn't ask for it, they intervened, which I'm so grateful for. And I took myself out of it because somewhere deep down, I knew I was worth more.

I felt that I didn't want that anymore. I didn't want the physical manifestations to continue. Even if I hadn't associated it directly with this experience or this person, I didn't want to live that way. I loved my friends and my family that intervened so much that I thought there's got to be merit to their words.

There's something not right. And I also knew the second that I left, because I am the one that stopped being in that relationship first. I felt so free, so light, so much brighter. My brightness came back. Didn't even realize I was less bright, but I felt brighter, I felt bigger, I felt free, I felt the lump in my stomach go away.

I all of a sudden could breathe. And of course, you go through, then I was angry, then I was sad, then I was confused, then I felt guilty, then I thought, oh maybe I can change. And it was me. And you go through all of these experiences and I was given the opportunity by this person to enter back into the relationship for another time and I said no thank you. And at that moment I knew that I had learned enough about myself through reading,

through my first experiences in therapy, through talking to my friends about the realness of that experience. Cause I think I definitely sugar coated a lot of those moments to them. Of course. In a way that was like, oh, I'm fine.

It's all good. Yeah, that's not I don't love that. But it's not as bad as you think it is. And when I stopped sugar coating and started realizing what was actually going on, and by the way, journaled and screenshot and saved emails, because I wanted one day to be able, not to read it and go, oh God,

but to read it and go, I didn't make it up. Because you never know, you know, you never know if your mind is gonna play tricks on you. And I saved it all. And I even knew to go further back at 16 years old, I knew that I was gonna want to remember the summer I was 16 and I thought, I'm gonna learn a lot of things about myself this year.

I know that in the next two years, there's gonna be a lot of things that happened to me. And I'm gonna start journaling because I'm gonna want my future self to look back and know where things started really percolating and what feelings I was associating with what experiences. And one day I'm going to want to know that. And then when I went to go write my book and when I went to go play

a character in the movie To the Bone, I was like, wait a second, I've written about stuff. And I like went back and thought it even said to future me in case you're wondering. And I like went back and thought, it even said to future me, in case you're wondering. And I'm like, what? And so having all of that helped me take what I had written and then verbalize it. So like actually making my voice louder, filling me up with more like air

to be able to say it out loud, and then to receive the gift of other people saying, wow, that affected me, wow, I read that, or I heard you speak about that, and that was my story too, or thank you for sharing that. That gave me the empowerment to kind of take a megaphone and then say it even louder. And then even through all of that,

admitting to all the stuff that I did in the book that I wrote, which there's so much more I've learned since that first one, even through all that, I'm gonna find a guy that wants to be with me. Oh, and he's encouraging me to be even louder? That's what I'm supposed to do.

I'm supposed to be a bigger version of what I thought wasn't actually appropriate. I was called inappropriate so many times for using a voice and now I'm being told, no, no, no, like, use your voice to the loudest capacity that you have because why not? Why are you freezing? Just say it, let go.

And I have a problem letting go. I do, I don't breathe properly. I don't like saying the word sometimes. I just don't like letting go. And after being told for years in so many different arenas, just like let go, let go. I'm like, what the fuck do you mean let go?

I don't know what you're saying. I am letting go. But that letting go ability, it like, you need to breathe to talk. And sometimes I like hold in too much. Oh my God, Lily. So when did you meet Charlie and when you met him, did you immediately recognize him as freedom or was he scary as shit to you? Or both because we have talked a lot about how when you're used to a certain thing,

and you're comfortable with discomfort, when you meet someone who represents freedom or peace or joy, you can be actually suspicious of that. Oh, listen, this one? Oh, you're good? You're fine? Just relax? I'm like, I don't trust your judgment. I don't know if we can trust you, you know? So tell me about meeting Charlie and how that all went down.

I met Charlie in 2019. So right before the pandemic essentially. And to backtrack a little, I had spoken to a psychic months and months and months and months and months before. And she had said to me, I feel like you're gonna meet your person in May. And I was like- That's quite specific.

I was like, okay. Sure, cool, great. I mean, maybe, I don't know. And I don't live my life according to what I'm being told. I'm just like, it's in the back of my mind. And May comes around and there's a part of me that's like, cool, okay, come on. Keep your head out of the swivel, Lily.

Manifest, you know. And I get to the end of May and I'm like, okay, well, it didn't happen because it wasn't that person and I didn't like that and I'm not going to force it, you know, it's clearly not meant to be. And then Charlie and I meet through a work experience, just sitting at work and I see him, it was just like a FaceTime meeting because we were both in different places and we were meeting on something. And his face popped up and I kid you not,

his face popped up and I'm like, whoa, do I know this person? This is weird. Like there was like an old soul connection right away where I just felt so confused. This is not a word, but confusably comfortable. I was like, I don't understand what's happening right now, but I didn't associate with the date that it was.

I didn't associate it with anything at first romantic. I just was like, well, this is a weird connection with a human. And as we're talking, we have so much in common. We're half British, half American. Our dads are both British in the entertainment industry of a certain age. We have been in the same rooms at the same time. I had just recently danced with his mother and stepfather at a birthday party, which we were like, wait,

I've already met some of your family. We had similar people in common. We just had all these weird experiences that we should have met, but we hadn't. And as I'm talking, I realize I'm starting to like, kind of like twirl my hair. And I'm like starting to get a little awkward, but I still don't really clock it until after when I overly analyze the situation in my head.

But we're talking, it's the most wonderful, easy conversation ever. And I just felt connected to this person. We get off the phone and like two or three days go by where I keep talking about him to people in a way that is about work, but also just kind of past that, talking about how wonderful the conversation was. I remember them being like, so you've talked more about this person than a person that you have gone out on dates with and you said it was just like a meeting.

I'm like, yeah, it was just a meeting, but hmm. And then I looked at my calendar and I had met him on May 30th. And I was like, whoa, wait a second. And so then we started messaging each other. I reached out first. I had to make that a thing. I reached out first and then that was it. I reached out first. And then that was it.

We talked 24 seven for days and days and days. And my favorite thing is another reason why I knew he was he was the one was when I said, so let's definitely get together when we're both back in town at some point. I'm actually going to London to go to the Spice Girls concert. So maybe after that. And I was like, what's his reaction going to be? And he was like, Girls concert. So maybe after that, and I was like, what's his reaction gonna be? And he was like, oh my God, I love that you're going.

That's gonna be so fun. And it was just this. You were wondering if he was gonna belittle that. Yeah, that would have been a real sign. And then it was it, you know, I just felt right away that I was A, going to be as safe and protected as I've ever felt, and also equally as challenged,

but hellfully challenged to be a bigger, bolder, more inquisitive, adventurous self, which, to your point, is fucking scary. Yeah. Right. Because I thought I knew everything about myself. I thought I knew who I was. I I knew at the core who I was, but I was still totally individuating and I was still finding me.

But you can do that and be in a relationship. Doesn't have to be one or the other. And that was the first time I found that out. This is the first time. Held and free. That's what I, it's like, I always thought you either are held, so you're like safe, or, but you're not, you don't have any freedom, right?

Or you're just out on your own, but you don't have any freedom, right? Or you're just out on your own, but you don't have any heldness. So to find a thing where you are both absolutely held in who you are and absolutely free to expand is a miracle. That in and of itself can be confusing to somebody who has either not believed the moments when they've been told to fly or they've been told that but the words have said one thing and the intention was that you better come back real fast. That's right. And if you're an empathic person, if you're someone that can

really clue yourself into what someone's saying and the intention behind it, and you're getting these completely mismatched feelings, that can create this idea that A, what people say isn't what they mean, or I can't even trust the good of what you're saying because I think it's going to come with some sort of resentment, or you're gonna hold it against me, or you don't really mean that. And it takes a while for that to stop being your go-to. And when you're shown, again, expressing that is important because they can be unfortunate misprojections

of something that I'm still feeling from the past, where I'm like, I don't know if what you're saying is true. And whereas he's saying, no, but I wouldn't say it if it weren't. I don't say things if I don't mean it. And it's like, oh yes, okay, okay, right, right, right. I'm just trying to reprogram my brain because I haven't trusted that in the past,

but I'm gonna lean in and I'm going to trust it. And then after time and time again, of those experiences actually being positive ones, you then can reprogram and recondition yourself to trust what someone's saying and their intention. Yes, but it's not that we're crazy. It's because we've been in places where people did say one thing and mean another thing. And that is part of being in an abusive relationship is like you always feel a little bit crazy because they're saying one thing but the energy underneath it is completely different.

So then when you get into healthy relationship, I mean, I just admitted to Abby that when she like looks at me in a moment and out of the blue says, you look beautiful or you're beautiful. My thought is she's just looked at me, thinks I look terrible and is overcompensating for that feeling and thought by telling me that I look beautiful. Like, it is some crazy ass shit, right? And I didn't admit that to her for five years.

I just told her that like three months ago. But that doesn't come from nowhere. No. I've had similar completely, but that's why I said I overthink where I'm going, oh, there's no way that that, okay, so it must be that, but I'm now I'm not gonna say anything and now I'm gonna hold it in and now I'm gonna think every single time that happens

that that's the reason why. And it's like, so exhausting. First of all, I'm very simple. I'm like, ooh, my eyes see thing, say something it likes, you're beautiful. That's literally it. So You're beautiful. That's that's literally. So what's your conflict now? What does conflict look like with you and Charlie now?

Oh, gosh, it's it's being held accountable for things or being, like I said, originally lovingly called out. I find more conflict within myself. I've always felt like I'm my own worst critic or worst enemy. I will create conflict if there isn't conflict within myself because that's kind of where I was comfortable for a long time. And that then may create conflict because I don't want to talk about it

or I don't know how to articulate it. And so the idea of being lovingly challenged is probably what I would associate now with healthy conflict, as opposed to it feeling like something's wrong and now I've got to fight about it or defend something. It usually stems from something to do with me overthinking or me feeling some sort of way about myself

and trying to work through that type of conflict, like more inner conflict. And maybe if I don't properly internalize or vocalize that, it can lead to misprojected conflict, you know? And those are the times when I have to go like, Lily, stop, what are you doing? Take the time if you need it. Let's figure out where it's coming from.

It has nothing to do with the situation that you're now taking it out on. And sometimes I write those things down in like a drafts note, note thing. I bring it up to my therapist and I go, this weird thing happened or this feeling happened and I don't know why or where it's coming from. And like you said, that third party person

can sometimes go, oh, well that is completely associated with X, Y or Z from this many years ago or now. And so I think the main source of anxiety for me, and it's something I've only learned in the past year, I think, is that I was really born anxious. I was an anxious child and I didn't know that the term anxiety applied to me. I would always use it and be like, I'm so anxious.

And it took this person saying, what are like the first questions you remember asking yourself? Or what are your earliest memories? And I said, the first question I remember actually asking is, is my name actually Lily? And they went, okay, well, that is that is an anxious child. And you were already questioning your identity. And I said, well, okay, I also had this recurring dream as a kid where imagine two Pac-Man, one's little and one's big, and I'm the little and I'm going around the board

and a big one is chasing me, intensely trying to eat me. Or I was this small blip and there was a really big, massive blip and it was just a feeling. I don't know what the shape was, probably round, but I felt like an intense pressure that one was gonna swallow me up. And he's like, everything that you've said is anxiety.

And that feeling of anxiety and panic manifested in a way like I talked about originally with evolutionary times, predator and prey, you freeze, it's fight or flight, you hibernate, you get smaller, you don't wanna feel attractive to something that's scary. times, predator and prey, you freeze, it's fight or flight, you hibernate, you get smaller, you don't want to feel attractive to something that's scary. And so you feel comfortable and most settled in being small and just blending in. And it's so interesting because I'm in an industry where we're trying to stand out all

the time and be individuals, while at the same time I became so used to as a kid trying to just go with the flow, not raise any fuss, be kind of perfect in whatever perfect way that meant. And all of that anxiety, we've all been triggered by things in the past few years during the pandemic and things have come to light, your face to look in the mirror at times when you could have just ignored it to begin with. And all of these feelings are coming up that you don't necessarily recognize. And by speaking about it,

I've realized so much of that is literally anxiety and having had that for so many years. And so living in that creates this inner conflict within myself that is a many years. And so living in that creates this inner conflict within myself that is, is a daily occurrence. It just lives in me and it's something I have to monitor so that I don't create unnecessary conflict. Yeah. And Lily, you're talking a lot about bigness and littleness. Yeah.

Even your early, your early dreams of like this big thing chasing this little thing and then it's trying to swallow it or somebody's trying to eat you or your toxic ex calling you little lily. You talk about being in an industry where you're supposed to shine and stand out, but where women are also supposed to stay tiny and small at the same time. That's confusing. So how... Because we've talked about eating things, eating disorders, and it drives me nuts when people talk about eating disorders as just about body image. Like it's all about, oh, I'm just trying to be a certain shape.

It's patronizing and it's not about that. It's about trying to be safe. to be a certain shape. It's patronizing and it's not about that. It's about trying to be safe. It's about deciding that at an early age, not wrongfully, but rightfully so, that it is dangerous as shit to live on the planet in a body, a woman's body. And so trying to mitigate that threat by becoming as small as humanly possible. How is your relationship with bigness and smallness and food going right now? I will say we started off this conversation by talking about nonlinear journeys.

And I think mine is a nonlinear experience because I have in the past year learned about my anxiety and how that has manifested in my life during times when I have felt out of control or needing to feel safe as you said, or being rocked within my own body, whether it's my identity, whether it's an outside situation that causes me to go into robot mode, which is, okay, I have all these things to accomplish. I'm going to be able to do it in a way that feels as perfect as possible. I forget that I need to fuel myself in order to do those things. Meanwhile, I'm also anxious. I don't feel the anxiety all the time. It's

subconscious sometimes, but it does physically affect your body in ways that you don't even know until you're outside of it. It's something that I am very aware of. I have surrounded myself with people that are professionals in a lot of ways, whether that's trainer, nutritionist, acupuncture, therapist, my friends, my husband, my family, that know it's a nonlinear journey and know that I will not always be quote unquote perfect in my journey with it. And it's something that because I'm talking so much more openly about my experiences and about panicking and feeling anxious at times, it's becoming easier to let a lot of the shame that surrounds anxiety go. And it's interesting because I wrote a book that includes No Shame, No Regrets,

Just Me in the title. And even someone that can write something and feel something can also at times feel something different. It doesn't make you a hypocrite. And I've had to come to terms with that because sometimes I think, God, I speak about wanting to let certain things go in my mid-twenties. And then I find myself in my early 30s, having to reprogram at certain times again, because I've had new experiences that have brought up old triggers that I wouldn't have expected in my early 20s,

or when I wrote the book in my mid-20s. And so I think it's important for me, first of all, I'm at a place now, career-wise, where I love what I do so much and I feel so at home with a character, you know, like Emily, that gets to be this unapologetic, work-driven, loves love, loves herself, positive beam of light. I enjoy playing her so much. A romp of a delight.

A romp of a delight, which thank you for that. Delightful romp. She brings a lot of joy into my life. I can balance that out with other projects that are, you know, slightly maybe more psychological or my friends used to like say dark and depressing, or slightly maybe more psychological, or my friends used to like say dark and depressing, so that's kind of where I would gravitate towards. But I'm also with someone who constantly, lovingly,

sees me, sees if I'm struggling, sees if I need holding, sees if I need freeing or celebrating or talking to, and never makes me feel judged when I have a bad day and when I have a bad food day where I get confused or I feel guilty or I feel panicky or any of those feelings. Like all those feelings exist, you know, they exist and they're real. But I think the more I focus on, for me, the big picture of health and wellness and wanting a big fulfilled life and I want a family. And those are the things that to me take precedence

in my heart and in my body and in my brain than so much of what used to take over my entire being as to what caused my anxiety, which then manifested in eating disorder. And I'm really proud of the journey that I've made and the progress that I've made and the art that I've been able to create from a lot of pain and the people I've met,

including you guys. I mean, truly, Glenn, in your book, this podcast has enlightened me in so many ways and made me feel like I have friends at times when you think no one else can understand your brain and the idea that there is no shame in the fact that life and your experiences are a nonlinear experience. And as long as now as me, I know that it's important to have professionals around you that can support, that can lovingly encourage and call to your attention when you may need more advice or help or guidance. That is so far beyond what I had in my mid-20s because I hadn't outsourced certain help.

I hadn't transitioned to a new phase of my life where I was like, okay, I've gotten a lot of help to now. I feel like I'm graduating to a new phase of that. I've dug really deep. I've learned a lot of new things. And now I wanna focus on those deeper things with someone new, and then it takes me to a new place.

And it's just not always acting on the thoughts. But when you become really used to the thoughts, sometimes you feel like you have to act on them the same way over and over again. But it's getting to the place where you realize you don't and you're surrounded by the right people that encourage you to think differently and bigger. Lily, I am so great. This interview, we have to stop now, which is weird because it just started two minutes

ago. I know. So sad. I didn't know where this was going to go. I wanted to just kind of talk and feel the difference between unhealthy and healthy and or bad and good in terms of relationships. And I just keep coming back to when you're in the wrong place, you feel small, everything feels small. And when you get freer, whether it's with yourself or with someone else, everything just feels bigger.

And having that sense of both held and free in our relationship with ourselves and each other is heaven, I think. And I love you, Lily Collins. I just have to tell you something funny before we stop. We've been talking about you and reading everything and watching everything and listening to everything because we've become so obsessed and deeply in love

with the people that we interview. Last night, we've been talking about you for a while. Last night, my sister texted me and goes, you are not gonna believe this shit. Lily Collins is Phil Collins' daughter. I said, yeah, I know that. Some people know that. It's like that most unremarkable part about her.

Nothing against Phil. Yeah, she thought she was going to break that news. Just FYI in case it comes up. And we can do hard things. I know you don't know this, but... We have broken it here. I love... No, I love that.

I... You know what? It's honestly... I so appreciate that as well though, because obviously it's my family and I'm so endlessly proud and such an admirer of obviously my dad's work, but it's also, you know, I'm on my own path and my own journey in that sense as well.

And so I find it so wonderful and loving and also hilarious. So it's all for me. It's a testament to you. I find it so wonderful and loving and also hilarious. So it's all for me. It's a testament to you. He could have been a big Pac-Man swallowing you up, but you didn't let it. You ran it. You got bigger and bigger and now you are big Lily

and we love you Lily. And thanks for doing such hard things. And for, because I just think that you really just, just being you and showing up and saying what you did today is going to help a whole hell of a lot of people. So help me for sure. I love all of you and I'm so endlessly grateful for the conversations every single time I listen to you. You're just wonderful beings all three of you. I'm so grateful

This is a huge a bucket list moment But life-fulfilling moment for me to be able to speak with you and to share my small story that feels bigger and bigger the more I say it. Oh yes. Thank you for all of your work and Emily in Paris just yay. A delight. Go watch the romp. Go watch the romp. I know for all of us depressive babes, just freaking go watch Emily in Paris.

It's not depressing. All right. It'll get us out of that. It's beautiful. All right, Pod Squad. We will see you back here next Paris. It's not depressing. All right? It'll get us out of that. It's beautiful. All right, Pod Squad. We will see you back here next time. Love. Mwah.

Mwah. Yeah. Yeah. Mwah. Mwah. Mwah. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd

be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey,

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We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. You