We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Love Our People Bigger & Better with Bozoma Saint John

Episode Date: February 23, 2023

1. Hard-won, joyful, practical wisdom from Bozoma’s exuberant life, and her lessons on how to overcome after enduring excruciating loss. 2. How big love and life can be when we are brave enough to be fierce and tender.  3. The rarely talked-about confusion and fear that often come with pregnancy.  4. Why love isn’t enough — and we all deserve a community surrounding our love. 5. Why Boz gave her husband a book report assignment before she’d go out with him, and the heart wrenching truth that you can carry anger toward a loved one even after death.  About Bozoma:  Bozoma Saint John is a Hall of Fame inducted Marketing Executive, author, entrepreneur, and general badass. In 2021, Harvard Business School published a multi-media case study written about her career, titled “Leading with Authenticity and Urgency”. And Bozoma’s highly-anticipated memoir, THE URGENT LIFE, is available now. Bozoma’s brilliant career has spanned various industries and included roles as Global CMO of Netflix, CMO of Endeavor, CBO of Uber, Head of Marketing of Apple Music & iTunes and Head of Music and Entertainment Marketing at PepsiCo.  Bozoma’s work has been lauded and awarded with notable recognition including inductions into the American Advertising Federation Hall of Achievement, Billboard’s Women in Music Hall of Fame, the Marketing Hall of Fame; and has been included in The Hollywood Reporter’s Women in Entertainment Power 100 list and crowned as The World's Most Influential CMO by Forbes. By far, her greatest achievement is raising her 13 year old daughter, Lael.  TW: @badassboz IG: @badassboz To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We're here. We are here. Welcome. We're here. We can do hard things. I don't think we've ever had an episode that was based on a love story. And this is a love story today. This is a love story about a woman and her husband, about a woman and her daughters,

about a woman and life. And as Bose knows, because I read the urgent life for the first time months ago, and just texted her immediately and said, holy shit, I learned so much. And I couldn't wait to have those on the pod to talk to our pod squad because I feel like what we try to talk about constantly is just how to love and live deep. How do we just suck the marrow out of life?

And this is what those shows us. We hear all the time that like the harder and deeper and truer, you stay close to truth. We're scared of that because it hurts so bad, but that is what it takes in order to experience the highs of life and Bose does both. Yeah. Why don't you introduce Bose, Abby? Bose Masejan is a Hall of Fame inducted

marketing executive, author, entrepreneur and, in our opinion, just a general badass. Bozema's brilliant career has included roles like Global CMO of Netflix, CMO of Endeavor, CBO of Uber, Head of Marketing of Apple Music and iTunes, and Head of Music and Entertainment Marketing of PepsiCo, crowned as the world's most influential CMO by Forbes. By far, her greatest achievement is raising her 13-year-old daughter, Lail. Her highly anticipated memoir, The Urgent Life, is available now. Your life is one big love story. And partly about you and Peter. I loved your book and this part made me giggle so loud. You first met Peter at work. Okay. Yes. And you were hungry and he was a bit of a smart ass. And eventually he asked you out and

you said, if you read my favorite book, I'll go out with you. Yeah, tell us about your first meeting, your first date, and the first real gift he gave you. Ooh, yes, okay. I can also just say that it was really hard to write this book. Can I say that? It was really, really hard. And I love the fact that you said

that some of it made you giggle. Because that's the best really what life is. There's the hard parts, the loss and the trauma, but there's also the giggles. Even today as I sit here and I, you know, every once in a while, sporadically, I'll think of him or something will remind me or layout will say something and it'll make me giggle. You know, so it's not everything that is like

deep and dark and heavy, you know what I'm saying? And yeah, meeting him was one of those. Thank you. It was so ridiculous. Like the fact that I married this man is like, somebody has a question to me. You know what I mean? There should be some real questions about my opinions and my way of evaluating people. Because when I saw him, he just looked utterly, I mean, ridiculous is the right word.

First of all, I was working for Spike Lee at a company that was his agency inside of an agency. One of those big old agencies, actually, remember the show Mad Men? Oh yeah, oh yeah. Mad Men was based on DDB. So imagine that Spike has this little group of people inside of a company like that.

It's all black people in there. Inside of this very white place. So the only time we interact with the other white people was when we went to the cafeteria or to the mail room or some other place where there were other people. Otherwise, we were on an island by ourselves. And so I went down to the cafeteria to get my breakfast, which was a very standard thing that I did. Okay, I ordered the same thing, a creature of habit, right?

What was it? It was a, look, darkly toast system in, raisin bagel, two fried eggs, over hard, very hard, not running at all, and two pieces of crispy bacon. Crispy bacon, I love that part. That's correct. Don't forget the butter.

Okay. So that is my order. And this man was standing in line, like a few people behind me, tall white guy, like six, five reddish blonde hair, wearing a button down shirt that was open, like a few buttons down. And had this heavy gold chain.

I mean, it was, he just looked ridiculous. And he was basically like yelling ahead of people. To me, that I should hurry up. Oh, do my water. Yeah, that's what happened. And I had the same attitude then I have right now. You know what I mean? So I literally turned around like,

who the fuck is stopping me like that? That was like my attitude. And when he eventually, you know, like simmered down because he realized he really put mess with me, he tried to come in like sweet talk and he was like, well, you look like a queen, but does it mean that you're royal? I was like, that's a fucking alive. queen, but does it mean that you're royal?

I was like, that's a fucking alive. You know what I mean? The whole thing was ridiculous. That's not the beginning of a love story. You know, that's not the way it should start. But it's the way our started. And so yeah, when he realized how fine I was, you know what I'm saying?

Yes. And he wanted to go out. I absolutely was not letting him get an easy yes. First of all, I wasn't planning to say yes at all. You know, so my suggestion that like if he wanted to get to know me, he should read my favorite book, which is Tony Morrison's Song of Solomon, Heavy Book, right? That's like, you know, if you want to read about the African American experience

and you've got to rise up to the level of the Tony Morrison who you read, just and dumb down anything. And so I thought, well, that'll get rid of him because he's never going to read that. But no, like a week later, here he comes to spikes floor. All the black people. You know what I'm saying? And here he comes comes big white man. And the receptionist is like, oh,

there's a white guy here to see you. I'm like, oh, see, oh, not me. I don't even wipe people out. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't even, I didn't buy any white people here. I have no idea that was not me. Yeah. I go out to like the reception area and show enough,

it's that man, he's standing there and he's like, I read the book, let's go out. And I was like, there is no way. There's actually no way you read the book and like a week like there's no way. So I decided to call his book and said, all right, let's go. Well, let's go. And the thing is, see what I knew that he didn't know

at the time was that I was an African-American studies major at Wesley University. I'd read it everyone. All of the enormous black talent, you know, the James Baldwin, Nick Javani, the Zoranyl Hurston, like everybody. And I wrote papers on it. I knew it deeply. And so I was like, yeah, let's go out. I'm gonna embarrass the hell I do. That's what's speaking of my head. But we got to dinner and he knew what he was talking about. He had read the book.

That was probably the first shot. You know, that this man who like just didn't look the part, you know, and maybe that's the part of the lesson. He just didn't look like what I assumed he was. And he just showed up in a different way. And so by the time we were done with dinner, I like to say, and I, I mean, I will say that by the end of the dinner, I was in love.

He imagined that like 180. You know what I'm saying? From like sitting there looking like, I'm gonna finish this appetizer, and then I'm gonna stop him up with the rice of it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm gonna destroy him. And then by the end, I'm like, oh my God, I think I love him. You know what even say it like I'm going to destroy him.

And then by the end I'm like, oh my god, I think I love him. So we were inseparable. That was the end of November in 2000, yeah, in 2000. And my birthday is in January. And we were just inseparable. We were deeply in love. Only took us a couple months to get there. And as a present, you know, I was like, I really love my birthday. And I was hoping for some jewelry or some shiny, you know what I'm saying? Yes, I do. And yeah, we get to his apartment and there's no tiny box, there's nothing that looks like it could have jewelry in it. There's only like something draped in the corner with the chic. And I'm looking at it like,

it's not even like a wrapping paper. You know what I mean? It's literally like a chic. And again, I'm thinking like, oh man, like, you know, I love this person. So I'm gonna give him some grace. But damn, I'm gonna have to teach him how to give me. Yeah, yeah.

Like, right in my head. And it's not so interesting though that how much we want to teach other people how to love us. Yeah. It's like, it's the last of the person love you. You know what I do. But in any case, I got maybe one of the best gifts I've ever received in my life, you know, under that wrinkled blanket that was thrown over something because when I took it off it was Peter's painting an interpretation of the song of Solomon. The man had never picked up paintbrush before in his life and he painted what his interpretation was and it is one of the most thoughtful, beautiful gifts I've ever received.

And it currently hanging up in Layles, bedroom. So that's the kind of love we're dealing with here, people. So you and Peter fall in love of black woman and a white man, and a white man who wears big, long gold chains. Yes. And as you begin to share your relationship with the world, things get tricky. You said it felt sometimes like there is no peace to be found anywhere for you. So talk to us about what you mean by that. How are culture reacts and responds to a black woman and a white man in love? Yeah, because we were in New York City,

you would think maybe you would assume that it should have been peaceful, right? It's a multicultural city, cosmopolitan. Lots of people living together, right? All over the city, like there's not, it's not like you could just be by yourself in one area. You know, maybe there's certain parts of the city, but for the most part, you've got people everywhere.

And it's like, we're living in Manhattan, right? So it should be everybody, Kumbaya. But that's not what it was. I found out very quickly that love doesn't mask everything. You know, it's like, yeah, so you're in a cocoon to some degree, but you have to live in love outside. That's all? And you don't just love inside.

And the outside is what then started to crack us. Even in those early days, because we were confronted with other people's opinions. And look, we can sit here now and say, like, oh, but who cares? Like who cares what they think? And look at it. All of us have been in that position. And basically, one of us, you love somebody, you enter a situation where you know you're probably not welcome. And maybe you start to back up out of the space or you look for the safe exits or you look for a friendly face. You know what I mean? The two of you by yourself sometimes is not enough. Sometimes you need a

community around you to uphold you to tell you that like, look, your love is good, your love is okay. I can feel free to do that. And that wasn't the case for us. It came from everywhere, not just my family, by the way, or his, which was hard enough, but from strangers. You know, it came from white women, it came from black men, it came from, you know, even black women who were the type, girl, you better get your swirl on.

You know what I mean? Like it came from them too. That's pressure too. Everybody feels like they can have an opinion on your relationship. You know, even when you don't ask for it, like as if you needed their approval to do what you're doing. You know what I'm saying? Good or bad. That's what I mean. So, yes, of course, like, you know, the times when like Black women would see me and they'd be like, ooh, girl, tell me about that swirl. It was funny, but at the same time,

it's still put a spotlight on us. So even in praise, it can be harsh. Yeah. Even in celebration, you can feel like, but do you have to look at me? Like, just let me be in peace. And that's what was difficult. What is the white woman response?

I love telling you, I wrote about that in the book. And what has been made that because it's not just that people are interested in you, it's that what you're doing is threatening something in me. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Which is always very curious to me, right? I mean sure a lot of us also ask that question So why is it that what I'm doing bothers you so yeah, I Was I got to do with you?

And yes, why women were particularly interesting? Yeah, because they were less vocal but Meener But I have found that to be the truth for me in various places. Yeah, not just in this case, but in the corporate spaces. And lots of spaces. That, you know, sometimes it's like, right? You, you rather that somebody is yelling your face, you know, when black men saw us and would try to grab my arm or be like, sis since what you're doing with him, you know,

that was one kind of aggression. But white women who would scoff or would look at me up and down, or I could see them whispering amongst themselves, you know? That was a different type of aggression, quieter, but meaner, because I could tell their disapproval in a way that I felt was more dangerous because I wasn't sure what they were going to do, right?

And so to me, it's like that response and all those types of responses had to navigate carefully. Just when sure when it was going to be a safe space or a safe environment for us to be exactly who we were. And so we found ourselves very quickly adapting to certain environments, right, behaving differently. And that was not a conscious change. And perhaps again, maybe that's a universal thing where you find that, you know, in some spaces,

you behave one way as a couple and in other spaces, you behave a different way. As a couple, you know? And it's all behave one way of a couple and other spaces you behave a different way. Yeah. You know, and it's all with the intention of like, yeah, sometimes just being safe. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you are together in that, but one of the things I can't stop thinking about is that you were also alone in that because as the black woman in the relationship, you had always had to be on the lookout

for all of those microaggressions. Whereas so you would notice them, and Peter wouldn't even notice them. Right, did that make you feel alone? Yes, yes, it made me feel so angry. I was pissed off. Because I think Parvitt also was that, it was almost like he could do no right in that.

You know, if I called it out and he tried to dismiss it, like, that's no big deal. You know, there was this one time, I remember we were like in a fancy shop. I don't remember what designer it was, but, you know, we're shopping and he was so excited. He was like pulling things from me and like, we should try this on. It's going to look great for you. And I saw a bunch of white girls over there, like just snickering and like, you know, I just knew I was just like,

oh man, I don't even want to go into dressing room because he's gonna make me come out. And then they're still gonna be standing there and judging me with their eyes. And I just don't want, I don't just don't want the thing, you know? And when I told him about it later, like I got pissed off in the moment

and we left and we didn't buy anything. And later on, he was just like, why are you so mad? You know? And I'm like, because of the white girls, you know? And he's like, oh, who cares? Like who cares about them? I'm like, who cares? Not care.

You know? And it's like, I wanted a partner who would be as outraged as me. Or if it went the other way where, you is like hey, I this thing is happening over here And then if he wants to overreact right or time of a black man try to pull me from him physically pull me from him You know, and I knew that well, we were about to we were all of us about to be in a fight It's like Then I'm playing peacekeeper, you know, and I'm trying to be like, hey, simmer down, calm down, calm down, man, bring all that manly to Stockholm, bring it

down. And so a lot of times I felt very alone. There was a time when we went to Ghana together, and it was his first time there. And I was really excited for him to come because, of course, Ghana is so important to me. It's where my parents are from. It's where my family's from. It's the basis of everything in my life. And we had talked about it so much. So his first visit, he was thrilled, right? And the running joke was that like every morning we would wake up and Peter would be gone.

Nobody could find it. He'd just be out in the street. Yeah. And then later on we go find him and he had made friends. He's over here holding people's hands, you know? And he just, he had made friends. He's over here holding people's hands, you know? And he was just adventurous, but it pissed me off because it was just no win because I was just like, how is it possible that you were able to be anywhere on this planet

and have the freedom to do anything you want? Yet I don't feel safe at home. But I can't walk around at home by myself. Go make some friends with random strangers. Yeah, you are in a foreign land. You don't speak the language. You don't eat the food. You can't even pronounce the people's names, right?

Yeah, here you are all alone by yourself. That's a good ass time. You know, so we came back and friends were like, how was Ghana? You know, and he's like, oh, it's fantastic. It was a made out fantastic time. And I'm sitting there like, I'm not a fucking year. You know what I mean? Like, I'm allowed to have such a good time. That's a good time, you know, but the same time, can you imagine if you came back and you're just like, it was terrible. I was saying, I hate all the people, I hate all the two. Yeah, but you probably were hoping that you would have a moment of understanding because he would

go and be uncomfortable there. And then he would understand how you felt. But instead you said, I should have been ecstatic that Peter was embracing Ghana. Instead, I was pissed at his white man's arrogance. Yes. That's exactly right. Well, you wrote it. That was you.

That was you quote from you. Yes, yes, exactly. That's what I wanted him to understand what it was like for me to be in the world. And I thought if I put him in a world that is not his, he will finally understand what it's like for me to be in his. But that didn't happen Instead he was king there too It was not possible and yet here I am

Scared everywhere. There was no understanding Between us of the cultures and it was a fracture Your description of that is Mind-blowing and world-changing by the way in the book. So you're in this cocoon and there's all this shit on the outside, but it wasn't just out of the cocoon. It was in the cocoon. Tell us about when you went out to dinner with Leander and Ray. Oh, yes. Oh my goodness. So by the way, Leander and Ray both have read the book.

They read it and early draft of it. So by the way, Leander and Ray both have read the book. They read it an early draft of it. And Leander remembered it, Ray didn't. Yeah. Which is also so interesting to me is right of a memoir that our memories, some memories are just so sharp. They create, sometimes they create trauma in a way that somebody who's in the exact same place

just doesn't even like affect them at all. It's amazing. It all, it's incredible. You know what I mean? And that's also why sometimes I feel like even in our own lives, like we've to have more grace, you know, in like our experiences, because yes, two people can be in the same experience at the same time and it can affect one and not affect the other one

In that moment when Ray was telling me that he couldn't remember that time house. It's like wow isn't that so So Fascinating Yeah, in many case we yes, we were celebrating landers birthday and we had gone to a casino in Connecticut And it was a four of us celebrating. So Ray and Leander are black. Leander is one of my best friends we met in college. Ray went to college with us as well. So I've known them forever, right? But the four of us were great friends together, you know, two couples having a great time and we've gone to this casino. We went to the restaurant to have a great dinner together and the hostess at the front

was, you know, she was like, one of those who was just like, oh yeah, we'll see you as soon as something opens up. Meanwhile, there's like three tables open that we can see. And then we're standing there for like 15 minutes and it's like, can we sit? What's happening? And almost immediately, I think the three of us, Rayleigh, under myself, knew what was going on. Peter on the other hand, was just like, Oh, man, I can see a table over there. You know, we're like, man, do you not see

it? You know what I said? You know, so eventually, of course, that scene blew up. You know, we knew was some racist shit happening. And we sit down. It, of of course then dawned on Peter what was going on. And he felt so terribly in that moment, which I think in hindsight, I understand how he felt so terrible, right? He was identifying with this white person who was treating his black wife and his black friends terribly. And he felt responsible, right? He wanted to write to the wrong.

Meanwhile, I'm thinking in my head, you're not one of them, you're one of us. You're with us. So when they treat me badly, they treat you badly. But in that moment, I realized that he wasn't one of us. He didn't see it that way. He saw himself as part of that. And that, for me, was another cast of this,

started opening in our differences because I realized that he would never be part of us. If something was to wrong me, he would not feel it. He would never feel it. He would always take the side of somebody else to try and write the wrong that they did because he felt responsible in their care and not pained with my life. He's identifying with that person, which is why he's trying to fix it.

Because if he was identified with you, he wouldn't be trying to fix it. He would be in pain or rage with you. Correct. Correct. I thought this a million times. I wrote about it in the book as well if it's our current climate, you know? And everything that's been happening with George Floyd,

I think the day I could George Floyd was murdered, I was on one of these big panels, the Zoom panel, I think it was Adweek or something big, right? And it was a bunch of CMOs and it was like a top 20 CMOs all I was supposed to do this. And the topic was to like share the thoughts of like how we as an industry should behave and how to best market to consumers in this changing climate. And I'm sitting there like I can't think of anything else but George Floyd.

You know what I'm saying? And I think I was one of two black people amongst the 20 or 25. And it got to my turn to give my insights. And I just, I literally could not say the words that I had written only a week before. You know, by the way, they were brilliant. But all I could think of was like, I know they were. Thank you very much. But all I could think of was like, I want you to be enraged. And that's all I said. I said, I have three points. Be enraged, be enraged, be enraged.

That's it. You know, and if you don't feel that rage, that I feel, that I don't understand why I am here, it is that feeling, a part of that feeling that was back then too with him. You know, I was just like, why don't you feel the rage? Like, why don't you feel the shame? Why don't you feel the hurt? Feel your identifying with them and feeling sorry for me. That's not the feeling I want.

You know, if you're going to be in this fight with me, if you're truly going to be authentic in this, you know, in our relationship, or even like, let's bring it into the present. If you are an ally of some sort, and you want to be in this with me, you have to feel the pain. You don't feel sorry for me, you know?

And that's what pissed me off. Because I was just like, man, like this man will be a feeling sorry for us. You know, instead that's what pissed me off because I was a side man like this man will be a feeling sorry for us You know, instead of feeling mad and that was shocking to me Wow, I'm just gonna like let that settle in Because that was Really important for me to hear thank you Thank you. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar.

I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I wanna talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food.

I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself.

Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. So a few years in your marriage, you became pregnant with Eve. And I want to ask, what do you want to say about that time, about loving Eve and losing her? Yeah. Oh man, what a lesson, you know. What do you want to say about that time about loving Eve and losing her? Yeah. Oh man, what a lesson.

You know? Peter really wanted kids. He wanted kids immediately. I was the one who was just like, look, I'm young and beautiful. I want to mess this up. And so I resisted for like five years in our marriage, which maybe doesn't seem like a long time, but when you're in a marriage and somebody wants to kid,

five years is a long time. Yeah. Where I'm just like, let's call vacation. Just like, what about this fall? And I'm like, oh, that's fashion week. I don't think I want, I mean, I gotta be cute. Like I can be outfits. And I was like, I was real religious know what I mean? I gotta be cute, like I can be outfits, you know? And I was like, you know, I was real religious

with my birth control and the whole thing. So when I was late, I was literally like, and my sick, is there an illness? Because there's no way I'm pregnant, right? And I am honest in my storytelling that like, look, I was not happy to be pregnant. I cried, I cried for a long time, long time. I cried for days. I don't think I even told my mom for like a week after I knew I was pregnant, you know? But Peter was elated. He was so excited.

And I think for me, it was the realization there were so many things happening at the time. All of these different experiences I've been talking about, you know, with like our cultural differences and some other differences we're having was making me question whether or not this was actually the partnership in the relationship I wanted. I loved them very much, but I wasn't sure that like our relationship was actually gonna last forever.

And I was scared of that. I hadn't voiced it at all to anybody. And then I got pregnant and I was like, oh, shit, now I'm trapped. Now I'm stuck here. And so those were the thoughts that were going through my mind. But by the time it was unavoidable for me to tell people, because that was hiding for a long time.

That first trimester, I was until I'm a soul. I told my close friends and my sisters, but that was it. And so then it was obvious in the second trimester and I had to tell my colleagues and so you know it was like a slow build for me in terms of like coming to terms with the fact I was going to become a mother. And every appointment that we had you know to hear the baby's heartbeat or to do the check-up was another one where I was like okay all right all right, I'm getting closer and closer, you know, I'm starting to understand this. And by the way, can I pause and say that I wish that women who decides to become mothers or who are

pregnant or, you know, who go through that experience or any partner, I guess, anybody who becomes a parent, that's probably a better way to put it. I wish we were to talk about that more. Be more honest about that because it's not always rainbows and sunshine when you figure out that you're pregnant. Even if you're in a quote-unquote traditional situation where you should be all happy. What does that even mean? It's like, look, you as an individual, sometimes you have to acclimate to a situation. You know, it's a rid. And we don't talk about the misery of that. Or like, what happens? And I for one, I think everybody on the outside would have been like, you're in a five year marriage, you got a great husband, you got a great job, you live in Manhattan, you can afford like whatever you want.

Why wouldn't you be happy to be pregnant? There's nothing wrong with you. But I didn't want to be. But I felt trapped and I felt like I had to be. So every appointment did get me closer and closer to feeling like I could do it. And the turning point for me, and this is, you know, I thought about this a lot over the years, but the turning point for me was when this is, you know, I thought about this a lot over the years, but the turning point for me was when we went to an appointment, I was almost six months pregnant,

where they checked the amniotic fluid. And our obstetrician said that, you know, the fluid was a little low and that our baby wasn't the size that it was supposed to be, just a little smaller, but it wasn't cause for concern. And when I heard that, I became protected. It was a turning point for me where I was just like, oh, wait, hold on now, hold on. Okay. Now this is not just like some foreign object that I'm like fighting again. So no, not my body might be trained us. Yeah. And it's like I can talk shit about my family. Don't you talk shit about my family?

Definitely. Yeah. I can be pissed off, but don't you dare mess it up. You know what I mean? I'm going to mess it up. It was just a turning point where I was like, oh, wait, hold on. Oh, okay. No, no, no, no.

Let me figure this out. You know? And by the time my illness was diagnosed, I had severe preeclampsia, early onset preeclampsia, and had to be rushed into the delivery room. I had to be given the pocosin and all the drugs to induce labor. And oh, it's like that. That was me and her Eve fighting against what was happening to us. I felt like it bonded us in that way. Whereas Peter on the other hand, we had switched roles, you know, because unbeknownst to me at the time the doctor had told him that

he had to choose one. It's a choose one. He was either going to lose me or he's going to lose you. Which one was it going to be? And I now can understand the impossible situation that he was in. By the time all I knew was the decision and I was living. You know, not just mad that he had chosen me over her, but that I didn't have a voice in this decision.

The fact that he made it on his own and then informed me. And I thought, well, what would I do now, even as we have a lot of discussions these days about choice, you know, and say, what do you do in that situation? And if you have a choice, what do you do? Which one do you make? And of course, there was no guarantees

that if you've chosen the baby that she would live either You know, so we chose his wife and it was so devastating to me. I Think in that moment or I could think of was the fact that That I was maybe being punished by God You know that I was maybe being punished by God. You know, that I was like, well, maybe if I had better appreciated the tremendous gift of motherhood, of having a child that I wouldn't be in the position to lose it.

And maybe, maybe some of the things that's irrational irrational but it was only a way that I could make sense of a situation that did make sense and I said well everybody has babies right? My mom had four sister had a couple my aunt had like nine babies nobody ever talks about the challenge. Nobody ever talks about things that go wrong. I don't even know if I'm pretty classy. You know, and then all of a sudden here I was, I'd be forced to give birth when I didn't want to. So all I could think of was, I just gotta be God. It's gotta be God. Who said, you don't deserve this? You didn't want this, right? And now I'm taking it. That's all I could think. And so in that moment, I prayed. I prayed.

And I begged. I did all of the things. I cried. I railed. Oh, I was holding myself. I can still feel it in my body. You know, her kicking and fighting. And me trying to hold contractions. And eventually, when she was born, she didn't, she only took a breath. And all I could think about was the fact that God failed me. I thought I was asking for help.

Is that what God wants us to do? Revondable, lay our burdens at the throne of God and ask for help, ask for forgiveness, then you'll be saved, right? That's what we're taught in Christianity anyway. And I thought I was a good Christian, but God didn't listen to me. And in that moment, my relationship with God also changed. And how do you feel differently about God now than you did then?

And how does Lail work into all of that? You know, so he has a thing. God and I really homies. Okay. I know. I know. Yeah, we're homies. We're homies in that like, I can be mad at God. I don't always have to like God. You know, and maybe that sounds blasphemous to some people, but I feel like that's homie. Sometimes you're mad at your friends. It doesn't mean you don't love them, but you get mad at them. They don't want to speak to them for a while.

And sometimes that's how I feel. And even at that point, I was so angry. I was angry at everything. I was angry at God. I was angry at my obstetrician. I was angry at Peter. I was angry at my body. I was angry at everybody. And the only way that't agree at Peter. I was angry at my body. I was angry at everybody.

And the only way that I felt like I could rectify any of it, because I wanted to take things into my own hands and control everything, was to get pregnant again. I was like, ah, that is the solution. And again, everybody said no. My obstetrician was like, what the hell are you doing? Peter was like, oh, absolutely not. I was like, you better lay down, brother.

We've got to get pregnant, okay? That's what, oh, we're gonna do, okay? Cause I'm obvious, and that's what was happening. And even, you know, my mom, everybody was just like, don't you think you should take the time? Like, and I was like, no, no, no, I'm gonna get pregnant right now. And so three months after Eve died, I was pregnant with LL.

And almost as soon as I found out that I was pregnant, again, I was like, oh, shit, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't want to do it, I don't want to do it right now. I don't know, I was kidding. You know what I mean? Because it was so scary. I was like, oh my gosh, now I got to live nine months with this thing.

What if something happens? You know, what if I get sick? I'm gonna go, no, what if I lose this one? You know, and so the fear of that was as intense as the grieving loss of Eve. And those two things living inside of me, and then also living within Peter created an impossible situation in our home, were supposed to be in this thing together, you know, protecting each other, helping each other, grieving together, celebrating together, right? We found ourselves in opposite corners, because here I was feeling like my body betrayed us.

My body betrayed, it was my fault. And then I was like, well, God, you have something to do with this too. So you make sure that this baby lives. But then at seven months pregnant with Leo, here I go again. More profanity. And at that point, I was like, hey, look here, you. This is me to God. Don't do this again. I promise you, don't do this to me. I will not survive this. And I made God a deal. I said, if he gave me this baby, I would name her for him

I said, if he gave me this baby, I would name her for him and that everywhere I went, I would tell, I would tell people that God is the reason that she lived. And so when she was born, we named her Lay El or La El and Hebrew meaning belonging to God. And for me, it was my contract. You know, I was like, okay, I will do this if you give her to me, if you protect her in the world. And honestly, it has been somewhat freeing also, you know, of the fear of her life. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. I think as parents, you're always worried, right? If I could kid, like the outside,

you're like, oh, they safe. Like, yo, that's God's kid. That's walking around outside. Okay, I dare you to mess with her. Like this, that's not even mine. That's God's kid outside. Okay, named after God, that's God Jr. Okay, so you, God Jr. God Jr. That's who's walking around. Okay. You want to mess around with her?

That's on you. That's what you went. I don't know. I'm out of it. That's how I'm doing. And then when she gets in trouble at school, you can be like, God, that is your child who did that. That's correct. And yes, when she does, I'm like, Lord, what you gonna do? This one right here. What you gonna do? She grounded? I don't know what you want me to do. It's not like. Oh, so fun. Yeah. It's so fun. It's so fun.

So fun. So after so much beauty and love and pain and loss, you decided it was time to separate from Peter. How did you know it was time? And how did you know that separating was the right kind of hard? I mean, both. This is the question we get so much from people from how do you know? Because it's hard to stay. It's hard to leave. How do you know which one is the question we get so much from people from how do you know? Because it's hard to stay. It's hard to leave.

I don't know which one is the right. Yeah. I babbled it for so long. It was not like overnight rush. I was like, you know, I'm out of here. I thought about it for a long time. But I always just over a year old when I told him that I wanted to separate. And it was terrible.

It was awful. And, gosh, I don't even know how to describe it because even in that conversation, there was a point of clarity for me that I was just like, oh yeah, no, this is the right thing to do. Because our understanding is that what we wanted and marriage, we're so different. And there were so many things that I still didn't know about him. You know what I mean? We were in the conversation about separating. And he was basically saying, but why do we have to?

There's so many married couples who are miserable. Let's say together. I remember that. And I literally was just like, who am I talking to? Yeah. You're like, what do you mean? I don't want to be miserable.

I don't. And you can, you can say that it's a fantasy to be in a relationship where you're happy all the time. I know that's not realistic, but I also don't want to feel like this forever. You know, so for me, that was, that was the breaking point. There was actually one day I was looking at Layelle and thinking, like, she will never know me as the happy person. She'll never know me as the person who's like, you know, care free and loose and playful. Because that's not what I was in our relationship.

At that point, I'd become more closed, angry. I was resentful, holding on to things. You know, and look, I'm not going to just blame him for it. It was me. It was me also. I couldn't let go of certain things in our relationship. And there were chasms that I also let spread. And so by that point, I was just like, man, for her and for me, I got to get out. Yeah. Because I want her to know me as like the effervescent, bubbly, fun person that her dad fell in love with. She would never know me as that if I stayed. And so in that conversation, I knew that it was time to go. It was difficult. And the thing is that I, I also wanted to, at the same time I wanted to protect his heart,

so I didn't say I wanted a divorce, even though that's I knew I wanted. I wanted him to come to that realization, which was so stupid of me, because, I mean, seriously, like, again, why do we think that we can control other people? I don't know, you're just gonna set him up to have it be his own idea.

Can you imagine exactly? I was like, you know what I'll do? I'll make it his idea. Like how? How are you gonna do that? I should have just said it, but I didn't. I just said, oh, I think we just separate for a while and figure things out and see,

but all that did was drag this thing out for a long time. And then there were other challenging issues that come as a result of that. Even though we became great co-parents, I ended up moving. We were living in edgewater at the time and I ended up moving back into Manhattan and he stayed in edgewater. Dale's daycare was in edgewater, so I would go and drop her off and go to work and then we figured out.

So, when figuring out how to do as a separated couple, it almost felt like we were still married just living in two places. Maybe some sort of like, you know, romantic 1950s movie or something. Yeah, it's kind of the dream. You're onto something, fellas. Hey, I'm sitting right here. No, no, no, babe, not you.

I'm thinking of other marriages. Like, yeah, other marriages. Other marriages, they're sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, that was not gonna work. I mean, honestly, no, no, not you. I'm thinking of other marriages. Like, other marriages. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, that was not going to work. I mean, honestly, it's like, you know, when, when, you know, I wanted to see other people, here, I was hiding and sneaking around like I'm cheating on him.

That's not healthy either. And there were several times when we had to confront that and it was, it was not a great situation. But yes, like I, I knew I had to go because I needed to be the best version of myself. I was not the best version of myself in that marriage at that time. So then what people listening to this might not know which they will when they read the urgent life is that there is a moment where Peter is diagnosed and when it became clear that things were bad. Yeah.

Well, he was diagnosed in May of 2013. It was just before Lael's fourth birthday. And at that point, yeah, we were separated. He was seeing somebody that I was actually very happy that he was seeing because I was like, good, you have a girlfriend. You can leave me with the L.O. You know what I mean? And I was like, good, you have a girlfriend, you can leave me as a love. You know what I mean? And I felt like, oh, we're getting that.

We're getting that. I liked her. We're sister wives. This is going to be perfect because he's going to come to the realization that we need to get the form so he can go up with her into the sunset. I mean, this is wonderful. Work is going great. I did a major deal with Pepsi and the NFL for Super Half-Time Show.

Beyonce had been on the half-time show stage. Things were golden. Everything was great. And then Peter has his lump on his neck. And we were, again, we weren't in enough of a partnership that I could go over to his house and see that thing and they're like, what the hell is that? And when we found out that it was cancer,

we didn't panic, if that sounds, my sound strange, we didn't panic because both of our mothers had cancer. My mother was in her second bout at the time when we found out that Peter was sick. So she was getting treatment, she was chemo and radiation and the whole thing.

She had surgery. So we just thought, like, OK, there's got to be a plan, right? Get the doctor figure out what the surgery and the plan was. But a few months into the treatment, and as oncologists just said, there was going to be no solution. That the treatment was going to work. The nothing was helping and that it was going to be terminal.

And it was such a, I don't even know how to describe what that moment was like because I was sitting at the office when his mother called me from the hospital. And no one's somebody called me and they have something terrible to say, but they won't tell you. Yes, I hate that. And I was like, I ate that. But again, I think of it,

I'm just like, well, what else should she have done? Right. You know, I do have to be honest with you. She probably couldn't say the words herself either. But she told me to come to the words herself either, but she told me to come to the hospital and I came down from purchase the York to Manhattan, Marlowe Sloan Kettering and Peter was in there and as soon as I walked in I knew I just knew it I knew it and all I could think of was like gosh it's like the years ahead of us that we wouldn't have. The loss not just

to us as a family, but to LL, when he wouldn't be able to do with her such a great dad, you know, that they would be so robbed of that. In my book I talk about my relationship with my father which is you know complicated. It's beautiful. It's beautiful too. Yes, yes, very protective, you know. But I love that guy. He's been such a rock in my life in many different ways and I could think about the fact that Leo would never have that. You know that that would be taken from her, stolen from her. And as I sat there, it was, I also thought about the time we had wasted, you know, in anger, in misunderstanding, and how terrible would be to not confront any of those things or resolve

them. So, in his list of things that he wanted to do, not even a bucket list really because it was more like a to-do list. One of them was to cancel the divorce because at that point we had begun the process. We had our lawyers, we'd come to that realization, but you want to cancel it. And it was maybe an easier yes, but even the first time when he asked me out.

Oh. You know, it was an easier yes. I mean, because of all the things that I've said, just like that realization that like, if you're faced in that moment where you don't have the choice anymore, this is going to end. What do you decide to do? And maybe I should have asked myself that question when I decided to separate. Maybe that's the question I should have asked myself. You know, but I didn't. And I wish I had. Mm.

Mm. You should know that when I, when we were planning this interview, I'd try to all through the lens of you and your dad first. You could do this interview 50 different ways because the book has so many love stories in it, but some next time I see you, we're talking about you and your dad. Oh, so much there, so much there. So much, so much. And just the way that through your family of origin or your relationship with Peter and Eve and Lail, you're commitment to showing up for the people that you love. From what most?

In the hardest, most relentless, there's a moment and unfortunately, we're almost out of time, but I do want you to talk about this because it made me think about the beginning of the story of your love story when you begged Peter to write letters to Leo. Oh, God. And he couldn't do it. And that made me think of earlier when you're noticing the hard things and he's not.

And is there something about being the arrogant and title of white man, right? Is there really like, is there something about? Yes, there is a privilege of walking around like that. But are you because of that sort of pampering not able to do the grittiest most important things, which is real true love, which is what you do and you did throughout your life. Gosh, Glenn. There is something in it, you know, which is that I think as a black woman in this experience of life, I do always by society standards and probably

ingrained into my own because of that sort of other people first because I've served last always. And so in every situation I find myself serving others first. And so in the opposite way Peter has always been served. He's always been the one who has received, you know? And so to ask him to do something like that, which, yes, I, I, understood in that moment, I understand now, must have been feeling like the impossible thing to do. How do you write into the future when you know you won't be there? You know, how do you write to her on her 16th birthday? How do you write to her in her first date? How do you write to her for her wedding day? How do you write for her? Maybe when she has her first

child, how do you write for her? When she graduation high school? How do you write for her when she has a heartbreak? How do you write these things? Knowing that you're not around? I can understand how that'd be painful, but it is the sacrifice. You know, it is being in a position where you are serving someone ahead of yourself. And to me, that was so painful because I thought, she even in like the last bits of life, like show this immense love. You know, I knew that he had it. It was like, it's in there.

I have felt it in so many different ways. He's been thoughtful in so many different ways. And I was angry at him for that. And truthfully, in some ways, I still haven't forgiven him for that. Cause there are moments now where I wish I had a letter, I wish I had something to give her, you know? To be like, your dad thought of you at this moment.

He wanted you to have something of his, his words. Because there are things that are happening now, which when he died, I would look at her and think, gosh, she doesn't even know the magnitude of which was lost. She's no idea. And it will come to her slowly over time. Like the things that will happen that she will then say, oh man, I wish I had my dad.

There was a moment about, gosh, maybe four or five months ago, she's at a girl school here in LA and she, you know, made some new friends and they'd gone out on, like they'd got to like six flags or one of those parks and her friends' dad had taken them. And they were standing in line waiting for the ride and the friends' dad said that,

you know, or somewhere in the conversation came out that he's from Boston, a group of Boston. And so they all was just like, Oh, my, my dad, you know, it's like, he's from Worcester, but he lived in Boston for a while. And I think she was trying to find the connection, right? And he said to lay all, you know, it's like, Oh, we're, we're in Boston. And so she was looking at him like, hmm, I don't know. Thank you. You know, like, because that moment, where she was just like, oh, I don't know, I don't know.

And I don't think he meant to be insensitive, but he said, well, how do you not know where your dad is from? Or where he lived? You know, so she came home, she was heartbroken. And we're talking about and talking through it. And she said, I don't remember his voice. And I, I like this, everything, like I was just like, oh my God.

So here I go, like I'm looking through videos and trying to find something, you know? And in that moment, I have so pissed, because I was just like, why don't I have a letter? Why don't I have something to give her from him? So that she knows that he loved her. He cared about her. He'd like, that's all he thought about.

And so even today, I struggle with that to try and forgive him in the moment where he was reaching the end. And I'm sure all of the things that he was reaching the end. And I'm sure all of the things that he was also contending with and that he couldn't do that bit. I still have to forgive him for that. I don't know.

I insist, Pod Squad, that you get this book, The Urgent Life, the way that you live and love and celebrate. It's like, Bose is proof to me that when you stay with the hard truth, you get the sparkly stuff too in like equal measures because you know when a woman has seen a celebrate, like this woman celebrates, it's a great thing. We need to do a whole interview on that at some point, please. Just one in the holy hell.

Just go follow her on Instagram and you'll see any birthday bozons. I'm happy late birthday, but yeah, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for celebrating. Thank you for the offering of this book. Thank you for teaching us how to love and live relentlessly, relentlessly and urgently. Yeah. Yeah. You're beautiful. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I am so appreciative of this time to be able to talk to you about this, to be able to connect in this way, because I just feel that like in our human experience, it's not just like you have to experience the same thing. I experience in order to feel the things, you know what I mean?

Like when we talk about relationships and how it feels to be in it, we all have our things. There's always like that piece where it's like, oh yes, I felt that before. You know? Or like you don't have to have lost your spouse to cancer to understand what it feels like to be mad at somebody, right? And then something happens to them

and then still be angry at that. That's right. It's like, I'm not forget mother Teresa out here. You know what I mean? Like, I'm still pissed off. And there are some times when I have to sit there and be like, girl, you guys let that go. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm so mad.

And knowing that I have to figure out how to continue to live my life and be celebratory of him with my child and make sure that she understands that he was human. And not just like this big saints that everyone is wrapped in like rose colored glasses. You know, because that's also what happens in death. But all of us have experienced something in that vein where we are trying to reconcile our feelings over something we lost or someone we lost. And so I'm really appreciative of the opportunity, not just to write this, but to talk to you about it.

Thank you. Thank you. Pod Squad, we will see you back next time, but there's no way the next episode will be better than this one. So there you've got. Bye! Oh, I love you guys. I love you.

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