We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Make The Ordinary Come Alive with Amanda Doyle

Episode Date: April 24, 2024

Glennon shares an encore conversation that she and Abby had with their favorite person and co-host: Amanda Doyle! This episode, originally titled, How to Face Your Biggest Fear with Amanda Doyle, examines the relationships, decisions, and travels that led Amanda to today – from hitchhiking across Ireland, to prosecuting child sex offenders in Rwanda, to making the biggest decision of her life in an Ethiopian airport – they dive into Amanda’s lifelong fear of the ordinary. About Amanda: Amanda Doyle is Glennon Doyle’s Business Manager and co-host of the We Can Do Hard Things podcast with her sister Glennon Doyle and sister-in-law Abby Wambach. She is Vice President, General Counsel, and a member of the Together Rising Board of Directors. In these roles, Amanda is responsible for overseeing and advising on legal matters, including risk management, policy development, and programmatic affairs, as well as cultivating new initiatives and relationships to strengthen the organization’s impact. A former attorney at the law firm of Hogan Lovells and Legal Fellow with International Justice Mission, Amanda lives in Falls Church, Virginia with her husband and two children. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi Pod Squad! Today I am offering you one of my favorite episodes of all time. We can do hard things, but we can also do easy things. Like revisiting a message that may have hit us in one place before, but hits us in a completely new way today. This episode might just do that for you. It's an episode about how to face your biggest fears. And it is with my favorite person on the planet, besides my wife, Amanda Doyle. In this episode, Amanda talks about her relationships,

the biggest decisions in her life, why traveling alone was the place she felt most alive and comfortable throughout her entire life, her time hitchhiking across Ireland, her time prosecuting child sex offenders in Rwanda, how she made the biggest decision of her entire life in an Ethiopian airport, and how exactly she ended up on a horse in the middle of a parade in Costa Rica. Can you tell she's had a very different life than I have?

I love this woman. I love this episode. It's just a really gorgeous exploration of her lifelong fear of the ordinary and quest to the extraordinary and how this part of her life is a settling into the beauty of the ordinary. Take a listen. Okay. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things, folks. Abby here, little switcheroo.

It's usually Glennon, but I'm just giving her a little rest because guess what we got on the docket today? I'm so delighted and also a little bit nervous because this is like a new thing that we're doing because we're actually interviewing the most amazing person that I've ever met. We say this, but this is actually, this is true. I've never said the most amazing. Yeah, that's true. So today, Pod Squad, we are getting in deep with Amanda Doyle. Sister.

Amanda Doyle, who so many of you have asked so many questions about because she has been a bit of a enigma wrapped in a puzzle, wrapped in... Mystery. Yeah. an enigma wrapped in a puzzle wrapped in mystery. Yeah. So today we are doing a, this is your life interview. Oh, okay. All right then. With sister bear, as I call her.

Amanda Doyle is Glennon Doyle's business manager and head of staff and a cohost of the We Can Do Hard Things podcast. She is also the vice president, general counsel, and a member of the Together Rising Board of Directors. She graduated with high honors, who didn't, from the University of Virginia, where she double majored in studies of women

and gender and political and social thought, and wrote her distinguished major thesis in defense of the violence against women act. She graduated from the University of Virginia School of Law on merit scholarship, practicing at the law firm of Hogan levels, and then as a legal fellow with International Justice Mission. She loves roller coasters, thrift and vintage treasure hunting, and then she also loves to tell you when you say, I love your shirt, she says,

I got it for $4. And making pretend future plans for herself and others on Zillow. That's where you'll find her on Zillow or Goodwill. You can't get anything for $4 on Zillow is the unfortunate reality. That's why they're pretend plants. Right, Goodwill or Zillow.

She lives in Northern Virginia with her husband, John, her two children, Bobby and Alice and their dog, Shaman. The goodest boy. He's the goodest boy. Most beautiful rescue I've ever freaking seen. I know he's just such a love bug. Also I'm going to amend this bio because there's nothing in it about what she does for me.

Oh. She is not just your business manager, but she also thinks through and reads through all of my contracts that I ever get to sign. She just runs our life. I do want to tell you one thing that Abby said just last week that I just remembered, or maybe it was last month. But at some point, it was like seven in the morning in California, and I was getting a bunch of texts

from sister, and I was waking up to all of these texts, and I was cranky as shit, and I turned to Abby and said, why am I getting all those texts in the morning? Pricissi, I just woke him up, so you just give me a break. Oh, I know, I know. You talked to me about amending the good morning, here's 14 things for you to consider, plan. And Abby looked at me and she said, she had just woken up too, and she said, I know you want me to be mad, but I need to tell you something.

I am never going to be mad at sister. I was like, really? Never? She's never. So it's a boundary. It's just a boundary. It's a boundary for her. It's on her field of honor. That's right. That's right. All right. There are a million different lenses through which we could look at your life. And I got a little bit stressed trying to decide which one to take until I realized that if I don't get to everything during this hour, we have lo so many more podcasts in years to ask each other questions. So when we were starting to think about this, this one moment popped into our heads, Abby and I's.

Oh, God, I'm scared. Okay. I want to start with a bit of a sliding doors moment, okay? So this is a moment where things in your life could have gone one way or another. We all have those. So 14 years ago, you're sitting in an airport in Rwanda. You're waiting to catch your flight home from Rwanda after you've been there for a year. Sitting in the airport. Tell us what happens. It was actually an airport in Ethiopia at that time. At the end of my year in Rwanda, I planned some solo travel for a few weeks before I came back to the U.S. as was planned. And I wanted to extend the time as long as possible. So I had my flight returning from Kigali to the U.S. was planned for like 14 hours after I was going to

return to Rwanda from that trip. So in order to catch the flight home, I made it so that I could come home, say goodbye to my people, grab my stuff, and then go back to the US. What people? Say goodbye to what people? Oh, the people that I was living with in Rwanda.

We can get into this deeper later, but just so everyone understands, what were you doing in Rwanda for a year? I was a legal fellow with International Justice Mission, and we were working there to collaborate with local authorities to set up prosecutorial functions to prosecute child sexual assault cases and to return land to widows whose land was stolen from them

after their husbands died. So I had gone to several countries and I think I was flying in from Egypt at a stopover in Ethiopia and had to get on that flight in order to get home from Rwanda. So I'm sitting at the airport in Ethiopia, having a drink with a bunch of other

backpacked passers-throughs. And a few minutes before I have to board my flight, one of the girls says, you should come with us to South Africa. And all of a sudden I am frozen because these two paths just crystallized and one was this path of passing through these extraordinary adventures and unknowns with who the hell knows. One was this path of passing through these

extraordinary adventures and unknowns with who the hell knows. And this other path was a path of ordinary adventures with this man that I loved at home who was waiting for me, John, and the family that we would eventually have. And both were so beautiful for me, John, and the family that we would eventually have. And both were so beautiful to me. And choosing either one of them meant forsaking the other one. And it's just like this impossible reality hit me for the first time that choosing one

thing you love means losing another thing you love. And I think maybe that's why we don't choose things because it prolongs this kind of fiction that we'll be able to have both of them. That's why Zillow is more fun than actually buying a house. Oh, totally. Yeah. Exactly right. Exactly right.

So I'm frozen in that moment and it felt like a long time and I think it was a long time because all of the sudden, the over the airport intercom, I hear this, Amanda Doyle, your flight is departing. This flight is gonna leave if you don't show up now. And I was forced in that moment to kind of make a momentary lifelong decision. And the calculus happened and my body just chose and I threw on my backpack and I like

sprinted like hell to the airplane. And that path was the path that I chose, and the other one disappeared. And I think that's a moment that it changed for me, because I was like, this is where I am, this is where I'm going. Okay, so let's rewind to figure out how we even got to that moment.

Pod Squad, you have to know that the path we are going to take to walk through sister's life is riddled with boys. Okay. Here's something you don't know about sister, y'all. Throughout her life, she has been a major flirt. Would you say that that's fair, sister? It is very fair. And I would like to have a discussion about that because I think flirting is an under understood. Okay. Phenomenon.

Okay. Okay. I want you to teach us about flirting because if there's anyone who knows less about flirting, like if there's a spectrum of flirting, sister is all the way to one side and I am all the way to the other side. I'm on your side, Glennon. I'm not a flirt. Okay, sister was visiting me very recently. We went for a walk on the beach. This is the place where I walk every single day twice a day to like keep my shit together. So I've been to that, this place hundreds of times. There's always people playing volleyball out there. Sister and I walk onto the sand. This amazing thing happens, which is that, I don't know, 40 men who were all playing volleyball just suddenly recognized this energetic field around sister

and all of the energy on the beach turned towards us. It was terrifying. And all the men started yelling and saying things. Like what? Like, hey, hey. No, no, no. It was not that. That felt like a cat calling thing. It wasn no, no. It was not that. OK, it felt that. That's like a cat calling thing. It wasn't cat calling. It was not that at all. It was a mutual acknowledgement of force field. OK, well, mutual between you and them. OK?

So they turn all their attention towards us, and I feel like, oh my god, what are we going to do? How are we going to get out of the situation? And sister turns to them and starts talking back. Hey, hey, you. jokey-joke. I have walked that beach. No one has ever noticed me that one time. It was the weirdest thing.

It's just this force around her. Talk to us, sister, about what flirting is to you. Just give us an education. Well, it's cause I got big jugs. Oh! Ha ha ha! Says the double A Doyle over here. Well, what is it then?

Okay. You're gorgeous. There's the gorgeousness. Honestly, I really truly, I know that this is a phenomenon and I believe to my bones that it has very, very little to do with how I look because I don't look good when I leave my house. That's not a lie.

It's not a lie. So it can't be that. So I think first of all, I am an equal opportunity flirter. I feel like I flirt with people who I'm attracted to. And very, very rarely does that have anything to do with a sexual attraction at all. So that's how I am in the world. So if I see a woman at school pickup and she just looks like she has this great energy. I'll say, you have amazing energy around you.

It's so cool. Or if I hear someone in a meeting say something, maybe I'll say like, I really loved what you just said. That was awesome. What's different from that to like you send a text to your friend and you're like, I've really been thinking about you. It's a mutual acknowledgement of energy in whatever setting. So sometimes yes, it has the sexual piece to it,

but 99% of the time, it's just walking around with open energy. Open energy versus sending energy. Yeah, open energy versus sending energy. If I had a choice, I would have one. I think about this all the time, actually. Sometimes it's a strategy that I use. You know those invisibility cloaks? I think about that all the time actually. Sometimes it's a strategy that I use. You know those invisibility cloaks?

I think about that all the time and then I think nobody can see me, so it's fine. You could have a neon visibility cloak like with flashing lights on it. Okay, so fascinating. And Sister is like a noticer. She's like a lighter up of a room. She lights up other people.

She notices everyone in the room. They notice her back. It's like this moth and flame thing. I'm like a lighter up of a room. She lights up other people. She notices everyone in the room. They notice her back It's like this moth and flame thing. I'm like a fly swatter. She's like Moth to a flame. Well, I just feel like if that's what flirting is then if you're not going through your life flirting Then it's either you're going through life cut off from those energy exchanges or through life cut off from those energy exchanges or you're going through life with unexpressed attractions. Like what is it you don't get a buzz from those energy exchanges with random people?

No. I do. But I also like I have to temper how much energy I give other people because- Because you're famous. No, I- No, she's famous in every, in everywhere we stand, no matter, it has nothing to do with fame. No, it's like- It's not, it's not necessarily that. It's just, to me sometimes,

I worry about that energy exchange being misunderstood. And so I actually do consciously hold myself back from doing that like my natural state would, because I never wanna complicate or confuse any situation. I'm very boundary-ed around what other people leave walking away from me in terms of that flirtation. Because you're saying, sister, it's just all the same, but it's not always just the same.

No, it's true. Like when you're with men, it's way different. No, that's so true. So here's how I feel like it is with, when there is that sexual thing that is present, because there is, I feel like it's just a really cool reminder that the world is just one big pool of pheromones. And it's just like, occasionally you smell out a match and it doesn't mean anything other

than it was a match. It's like a magnetic force. And it reminds me of those people who walk around with the Pokemon Go and they're just like searching, they're walking the blocks, they're looking for their Pokemons or whatever the hell it is they find in their Pokemon Go. And then occasionally, bam! Like they have their little match and I feel like they have their little moment of bliss, they log it and they keep walking. And I feel like that's exactly what I do. I just feel like it's like you just walk around, there's an energy exchange. It's like, bam! Who would have thought of all the gin joints on this block? You person who I'm never going to

see again, and never want to just have your little mutual acknowledgement and walk along. What I think is cool about that is because my personality is so monogamous. I think it's really interesting that you don't think that there's anything wrong with that in like a committed relationship. Well, I don't know, maybe people are going to tell me it's interesting.

But here's the thing. I think it's really open and really probably more natural. Yeah, it's really cool. I never, ever not once have flirted with someone I will ever see again as a practice in my life. The only comfort I have is when it is literally like in passing, like the walking on the volleyball beach. Like there's never...

Passing, yeah. We are not going to pass this way again. There is no suggestion that there is an after this moment. There's... And no one that I know, like in my life. Because that, I think, that suggestion of availability or interest... Yeah. To me is very, very wildly inappropriate. But if I'm literally crossing a path with someone and they say something funny that's a joke

and I can throw it back to them and there's like a exchange of energy that many would call flirting, my only other alternative is to keep my head down and be like, I don't see that thing. I'm not, I'm scared of that thing. I can't engage with that thing. But I think that it has to do with safety

because if I'm walking on that beach and a man is like, hey, I am giving sending energy because it scares me. Yeah, I'm not scared by it. I think for me it is like a spar. I think if you are highly attuned to energy around you and you have this like confidence and funny and humor and quickness where it's fun to spar like that, then I think it's just an outgrowth of that.

It's almost like he thought he could say that to me and I would be nervous and giggle. And that's not going to happen. What's going to happen is I'm going to like send it back to him and he's going to be like, well, what do I do with that? Oh, that's cool. Yeah, that's really cool. Cause I hate it when somebody says something to me and then I just nervous giggle and then leave.

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Can you talk to us about what your earliest memory is of your first romantic relationship? Yes, I think I was like 14. Yes, I think I was like 14 and got together with this guy who I was on and off again for years and only in retrospect do I see that it was real bad. Real bad. It was real bad. It was real bad. There's a lot to unpack there. He was very unavailable.

He was not nice to me or really anyone else. But if he was going to be nice, I guess it would be to me. And maybe that made me feel special. It was very strange to people that knew you because she was like this golden girl and then he was this like bad boy. What do you think that was about? Attraction, yeah.

That's a great question. Because it was weird, sister. It was weird. We were like, what? It got really fucked up too. This is so embarrassing to say, but when you look back at the manipulation to isolate, to further manipulate process, I was so fucked from that. I remember it got to a point where I would, I had this like compulsory confessional thing

where I had no personhood of doing compulsory confessional thing where I had no personhood of doing anything or deciding anything was okay on my own. I remember calling him and telling him when I would cuss. Like that's humiliating to say, but I just think it is a very slippery slope to get to a point where you're doing things that don't make any sense. Can you get us there? How does that happen? How do you get to a point where you are actually calling to confess to your person when you

do something that was out of his idea for you or your idea for you? I don't know. That's what I don't remember. Maybe that was representative of me even having a life. Separate from him. Separate from him. Yeah. I don't know what it was. I was so desperate for affirmation from him, which was so ironic. The power dynamic of the relationship was inverted from an outside perspective in terms of like, I should have had the more of the power,

but inside of it, it was exactly the opposite. I think it was like this, obviously I'm oversimplifying his humanity, but from the outside world, very rough human whose softness was only for me, even though it was few and far between, made me special. Right. Like, if I can access softness in that, then I'm extraordinary.

Because anyone can access softness and care from a perfectly healthy, well-developed individual who is the person you should be with. Who would want that shit? That's easy. We can do hard things. Exactly. That's easy to conquer. Who the hell wants that kind of just low-hanging fruit?

Oh my God. It's so good and true and terrible. Do you remember any particular ways that that manipulation happened? And then how did you get yourself out of that relationship? Because it lasted a long time. Yeah, too long. Well, you know, the typical like your friends are terrible and never knowing when he would make himself physically available to me. So like he had his whole group of friends that of course that would be more fun and more cool to hang out with. And then every once in a while would be like,

all right, fine, we can hang out. So you're like waiting for the moment where it is allowed. But like you're not, you're never certain. You're always off balance. You never know when it's gonna happen. And you have no agency in it. Right, you're waiting for it to be revealed. And also just the mercurial nature,

like super annoyed, super unavailable. Then like the next moment may be, oh, I love you so much. Like you, you unstable from the perspective of not knowing what you're going to get. Also the diminishment of whatever ways that I was given value from the rest of the world, undermining those as valuable things. And I just want to point out to the pod squad, one of the reasons why this is so interesting is in elementary school, middle school, high school,

Amanda was like the captain of every single team, the president of every single thing, the fashion plate, the, like, I remember she got this award that was called the Optimist Award, and the principal stood up and said, she is the kindest student and she makes being kind cool. Like, that's who she was. She was the coolest one.

Still is. And also the nicest one. Like, there was not one mean girl thing inside of her. So for her, who was getting all of these, the success and accolades and kindness and goodness, the golden girl to be in this relationship, it's interesting. Yeah, it's a record scratch. It's a record scratch.

But the thing that is consistent is that it was something that was out of the ordinary and exceptional for you because what would have been expected would have been something different. That's interesting. It was out of the ordinary. So do you remember how you got out of it? I think after a while, I think I felt like very shitty enough for long enough. I think I felt like very shitty enough for long enough.

And then I also was like in different spaces where I was feeling good in those spaces. And I just decided that I would give feeling good a try. That's why the manipulation of isolation, right? Because they don't want you to feel joy in other places and realize that there's life out there. So you graduate from high school, you go to UVA, and you said this really cool thing to me, which is, I always say the first thing in my life

that I've ever done that was actually my idea was falling in love with Abby, starting a life with Abby. Every single other thing was just from a guidebook that someone was like, this is how you should do life. You say that the first thing you ever wanted to do that was completely your own idea was after your freshman year at UVA, you decided you wanted to go to Ireland by yourself with no agenda and just travel throughout Ireland.

Yeah, I just remember being, I don't know why, but I was like, that's what I need to do. with like no agenda and just travel throughout Ireland. Yeah, I just remember being, it just, I didn't know why, but I was like, that's what I need to do. I remember like laying in bed, buzzing about it, being like, that's the thing. I have to go, I have to figure it out. And so this dear woman who was a senior when I was a freshman, her name is Maggie Sly,

and she's an educator in DC. She's still an amazing human. I haven't talked to her in 20 years, but she was studying in Galway at the time, and she had this apartment with these Irish women. And I was like, can I drop my bag there? Can I just like set up shop for a few days and then figure it out? That's annoying, right? A tiny apartment. She doesn't know me from Eve. All I can think about is how what a ridiculously

egregious ass that was of someone. And she was like, okay. And so I went there and then just stayed with them for a bit and then just kind of hitchhiked around, which is a terrible idea. and then just stay with them for a bit. And then just kind of hitchhiked around, which is a terrible idea. Hold on, hold on, hold on. You're like, you stuck your thumb up and you got in people's cars and you got around Ireland this way.

Yeah, but that's not a good idea. Like this was the 90s in Ireland, which was a little bit like I imagine being in the 60s here, which was also not a good idea. All I'm saying is that yes, but it wasn't, I mean, don't try it at home. Right, okay, so let's put out that disclaimer, obviously. But like seriously, that's so amazing.

What are some highlights from Ireland? What is it like to be traveling alone? I think his name was Ciaran. Oh, Ciaran, Kieran. Of course. Of course. But no, I feel very strongly about Maggie. I feel like I owe to her this blooming love of traveling alone, which has been, I think, one of the greatest loves of my life. And so I'm very thankful to her for that.

And I just feel like there's something so amazing about traveling alone because it is this like only opportunity in the world to be in a place where no one knows you. And there's something so awesome about that because you can be anything you want and you won't pass this away again. So because of that, I am able to live in the now in a way I am never able to in any other time because precisely because it is not leading to anything where I feel like so much of my life I'm thinking like, okay, if X now, then Y in a month and Z in a year. And when you're traveling by yourself for a limited period of time in a place, there is no Y and Z. There's only X. There's only right now. And so it's the only time that I can shut that part of myself down and just think about like this day, this week.

And so no one has any expectations of you beyond their own biases. You don't have any expectations out of everyone else. And you don't have a plan. Like if you go with a group or a few people, you have a plan. And if you have a plan, you already know what's going to happen. But if you don't have a plan, you don't know what's going to happen. And that's awesome. And you also don't have a plan, you don't know what's gonna happen. And that's awesome. And you also don't have to take care of anybody.

You're not like, okay, I'm going with this person. This is what this person knows about me. This person knows that I would definitely do X or definitely not do X. When you're by yourself, you're a free agent. Nobody knows that you're a person who's not going to do X. So you might, might do X. You really might. It's so interesting because the two things about sister that are so everybody who knows her would say is number one, you're the most like planned person.

You plan everything. You strategize everything and that you take care of everyone. So it feels like those are two parts of yourself that you are free from when you're traveling alone, which must feel like a different part of yourself you live into. Yes. Wow. Can you tell us about Kieran? Cause I feel like you made out with him in a castle.

Is that true? Yes, but I feel like these serendipitous things happen when you just show up places. Like I think I met him in a bar in Galway and we were hanging out for a little bit. And then I traveled up to Dunningal by myself somehow and was walking through Dunningal. And he walked out of this other bar and was like, hey, and this is well, as far as where you can get in Ireland. And turns out he's from there.

And then we hung out at his grandma's house and went to a castle up there. It's just like, I feel like the universe is making connections when you're by yourself that it's not able to make in the buzz of when a lot of people are around. So what are some other places that you've traveled alone? I was in Hawaii for a couple of months. And you were learning to surf and working at a pizza joint in Hawaii? Terribly, I was learning to surf terribly.

I still am horrible at surfing. Tanzania, Kenya, Zanzibar, Egypt. I just want to give a shout out to my mom because I just can't imagine if my kid was living this way. I might be just making this up, but I feel like one time we almost had you home and you were at some airport and all you had was a layover. It was just like an eight hour layover

and then we were gonna get you home. And then my mom called me and was like, oh, Jesus Christ, she left the airport for the layover and she's at some woman's house and now they're on a donkey or something. Well, she couldn't have known that. That must have been after the fact. After, okay. I sure as shit didn't tell anyone that that was the plan. So yes, so I was flying to meet a friend of mine in Costa Rica in the Osa Peninsula and we,

for some reason, I had an 11-hour layover in San Jose, which is the capital of it. I'm sure, because I could save $75 by having an hour layover. Right Jose, which is the capital of it. I'm sure, cause I could save $75 by having a layover. So I'm there in San Jose and I have 11 hours. So I'm like, well, this is fun. So I just walked through the cab line to find a woman cab driver. So I finally found a woman cab driver and I'm like,

can you show me around? She's like, yes, I will absolutely do that. And I finally found a woman cab driver and I'm like, can you show me around? She's like, yes, I will absolutely do that. And I spoke better Spanish at that point because I was closer to my years of education. So she takes me to go to her house, hang out with her kids, we eat, we're just like hanging out for the day. And, and it's at this point that I learned that it's December 26. It's the day after Christmas. It is the National Day of Horsemen in Costa Rica, which means they have,

I mean, it's to me this thing called El Tope, which is this traditional horse parades are all over the country. And the biggest one is in San Jose. All her friends and family are going to this thing. She invites me to join them. Of course I am joining them, but I don't have boots and a hat, which I feel like is critical if you're going to go to a horse parade. So she's like, yes, we will go.

And so she takes me downtown, I get boots and a hat, and then we go back to the parade. And then at some point, I'm in the side watching with all of her family and I don't know how this happens, but I just, I go from being in the crowd to being hoisted in the parade, hoisted on a horse in the parade and then I just ride the horse for the rest of the parade and I still don't have any recollection of how that particularly happened. Then it was time to go back to the airport.

So then she just dropped me back at the airport. And that was my San Jose experience. Yeah. OK. When did you meet the man, formerly known as your husband? Let's call him Tim. Tim's great. Tim's a great name. Yeah. Okay.

So did you meet Tim when you were in law school? No. No. I met Tim in undergrad. So as part of this group at school, and we had this party, it was kind of a crazy group. We had this big bonfire and like wood through it so you could kind of walk through the fire. And I remember I was walking through the fire and as I got to the edge of the fire, he walked up and I saw him and I was like, oh my god.

It was like this moment that I can remember and I will never forget. But I was like, fire, hot, danger, danger, fire. And like I didn't do anything with it, but we were really good friends. Started dating this other wonderful man. They were really good friends, started dating this other wonderful man. They were really good friends. Not all good enough friends to not eventually make out with each other.

Right. But not until I had broken up with the first guy. Okay. That was very hard. Okay. So you and Tim get together. Why? Because I could not stand to not be together with him.

Looking back, do you see it as doomed from the start? Number one, you have said of that marriage, I wasn't there for a lot of it, the marriage. What does all of that mean? What were the problems there? Why were you not there for it? How did it all fall apart? I was so enamored with him

and he was so larger than life to me and such an appropriate match in my judgment to me that I assimilated into him. And I didn't have a separateness from him. And as I got sicker and sicker because I was miserable in law school, because I didn't have a personhood outside of him, it wasn't just the absence of me, which it had been before.

It was a sick me plus him. And so I didn't have any agency over anything to improve it. And I didn't recognize any problems because I was in my own drama of my bulimia. I was in my own self-destruction. And so I wasn't present there. And so I don't know. I don't know what would have happened. I don't know if it was doomed from the start. We both had a lot of reasons why that relationship shouldn't have worked.

But I don't know that anything is doomed from the start. I think there's some times when I think back, when I think if I hadn't given him the ultimatum to leave his job or be together that we would have stayed together, and then I don't know when it would have dissolved. So part of me is like, would it have dissolved at a chance that didn't give me a chance to have another life? And also because I felt so passionately about him, if I was connected with him through a child, I think that would make life really, really difficult. Yeah. Because I can just abstain from him forever. I don't have to have any interaction with him, nor have I ever.

And so that's a blessing because I really feel for the people that were desperately in love with their spouses and now have to reclassify them in their brain and every interaction probably peels the scab off every single day. And I don't have to have that. I can have like a deep scar and leave it untouched. Yeah, that's really good. What is your take on why everybody has their like self-destructive vents, but maybe I hope.

Self-destructive what? Like vents, like ways they would go. They go when things get tough. Like if you're not healthy and integrated, like things you do to cope, to manage that are ultimately self-destructive. What's your take on why we both leaned so hard on bulimia? We had such different lives.

It's just interesting that we both ended up there. I don't know. I think maybe it wasn't going to be okay for me to be like, I'm not okay. So it was really bad my first year of college, my bulimia. And then it was intermittently bad, but under control-ish throughout the rest of college. Then in between, my year between when I wasn't at school, it was great. And then first year of law school, absolutely disastrous, worse than ever before.

So it's not like I was gonna say, I'm fucking miserable in law school, and this is not for me, and I hate this, and I'm leaving. That was never gonna happen. So like, what do I do with my misery? What do I do with that? Same with the first year of college. I didn't know what was going on.

I'm there. I don't know what my place is here. I don't know how to reestablish myself. Everything is overwhelming. I don't know who I'm going to be friends with. I know I don't fit exactly that mold, but I see very clearly what the mold should be. And it's all overwhelming. And so I wasn't going to be like, I'm doing bad in college.

So where does that go? Energy is neither created nor destroyed. It goes somewhere. So I think it's the shitty consolation prize. Like I'm miserable. I'm not gonna get myself the help I need, but I got this little thing we could do. That'll make you feel better.

I'll take care of you. You'll do this thing. You'll work it out. Then you'll go back out there and fight. Is that a tragic flaw for you? Not being able to say, this isn't working for me. There are some people who would be like, law school is miserable and I hate this and I'm taking a different track. That'd be me. Or do you know what I mean? Yeah. Is the inability to flip the switch on the circuit breaker, say this is not working, this is too much, and so then the house burns down, right?

Yeah. Is that a higher priority for you than not admitting defeat? Hmm. Yeah, I think probably that plays a lot. Like that reminds me of the Bernie Brown thing we did where she said that her biggest power and her biggest weakness is the ability to dig deep. And we talked about how the bullshit of that is that you think when you're digging deep, that there's no cost to it, but like you're excavating from somewhere.

You're excavating from yourself or you're excavating from the soil that belongs in your relationships or the soil that belongs to your own health. And so you're digging, you can keep digging, but you're stealing soil from somewhere else. And I think that I have been in soil debt for a lot of my life. Wow. What about now? What are the other self-destructive vents for you?

I think one of my self-destructive vents is that I have this pull toward extraordinary and I have this fear of ordinary, which is kind of like the two paths that cleared in Ethiopia where it's like, okay, that's an extraordinary life. You're going to take your book bag, you're going to meet how many different folks, you're going to go to how many different countries, you're going to see all these things. You don't know what's ahead. That's extraordinary. That's wild. And then there's ordinary, which is a partner and two and a half kids and a job. And you know what's

going to happen there. I mean, theoretically, you don't really spoiler alert, you don't really, but you think you do. And I think that the more that I've thought about that is like, maybe it's not a fear of being ordinary. Maybe that fear of being ordinary is really a fear of accepting who I am and where I am and who I'm with. And maybe my need to feel extraordinary, to feel valuable, and my need to have experience that are extraordinary to make them valuable, and I need to have a partner that's extraordinary, for example, a highly decorated Navy SEAL

to be valuable. Maybe that makes sense in terms of what I have chosen because that makes it extraordinary as opposed to believing that there is worth in the ordinary and being okay with who I am and being okay with where I am and who I'm with. Because that is so much peace. Do you have the audacity to give yourself that much peace and stop chasing? Just being okay with it. And then, and I think that's like my biggest fear, right? Because remember when we were talking about the, when the guy told me I only had, I would only need one more boiler for my house for the rest of my life.

And it just made me cry because I think And it just made me cry because I think that it's the chase and like what happens when you're on the chase and then the finish line is closing in, then there's no more path to chase down. Like if that has been what you've done. And I think my biggest fear is that when I get to the period in which I have nothing left to plan for or build for or chase down, that I will have this aching emptiness. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Which makes the ordinary seem a lot more attractive. So as life does, life lets you beat your head into the extraordinary for a while. You've got your extraordinarily bad first relationship.

You've got your extraordinarily decorated second relationship. These things don't work out. You're in the law firm, which I would remember as being a place that you met some wonderful people and also was not your best life. Just say it that way.

Hashtag not your best life. No. But you were digging deep to make it work. You were not going to quit. I remember you were living with me after the divorce and every day you would be so miserable and I would be like, well, what about quitting? And you would get so furious with me. You would.

You would be like, I'm setting myself up for future freedom. And I would be like, but now that's the conversation we've been having for 30 years, right? And they're both right and they're both wrong, okay? So you meet John. If I remember this correctly, I believe it was our dear friend Joanna, who was trying to set you up with John. And she kept asking me if it was okay.

And I kept saying, no, it's not okay. I'm scared of everything. Just everyone stopped doing anything near this woman. And then finally, one day, for whatever reason, I just said, okay, because I actually knew John. Yeah. Through my ex boyfriend. Okay. This is backstory for the long haulers here. So Glennon's boyfriend from college. We'll call him Rob. Rob. Rob. Okay, so Rob grew up from little bitty playing like little league of football with Johnny. Okay. And then when Johnny would come visit you guys at college, he would talk with you. I mean, talking is a, I don't know, we would mumble in each other's direction. We were both totally wasted the entire time.

Well, and then, okay, flash forward to like four years ago. I'm telling John about, because then you continue throughout college, like in the summers, you come home, like you'd occasionally hang out with Johnny. I've never met him at all. I don't have much interest in this whole group. But like four years ago, I'm like, oh my gosh. So I want to tell you about memory. I have like, we used to have this big blue van. It was a club wagon.

It was crazy. We would drive to the boat and he goes, oh, oh, I know the club wagon. And I was like, what? How do you know about my, he was like, oh, I've made out with people in the club wagon. And I was like, what? How do you know about my... He was like, oh, I've made out with people in the club wagon. And I was like, what the fuck? Like my life is so...

The little club wagon that I used to sleep my whole body in, my future husband is making out with somebody before I meet him. Anyway. Because I gave the van to Rob's fraternity. I gave it, my parents' van, to a fraternity. And they took all the seats out and they would drive it to parties and bring 20 people in it. And then they would put lawn chairs on top of the van.

So my dad would be like, why is our van caved in? And I'd be like, I don't know. I don't know. Weird. Birds probably. I mean, what our parents have been through. You can understand why I wouldn't be super excited about green lighting. The meeting of my brilliant sister to someone in this group.

How did you and John first meet? Yeah. What was your first date? I remember the day because it was on. I had I went to Vegas for my 30th birthday, for the first and very last time that will ever happen. That is a place that is incommensurate with my personhood. I met this person who then changed their flight so they could stay the whole time. Was it a boy?

Yes. Oh my god. We already have plans to meet in New York in a couple of weekends and I'm on this flight home and I am banged up. Like it's not a good scene. And I get three emails from John because he was so nervous writing me. He kept pressing tab to make a new paragraph, but he kept sending it. So I'm like, hi, dear Amanda, my name's John send. Oh shoot. Accidentally pressed

the tab button. Anyway, I talked to Glenn last weekend. Send. So we got through. And finally he was just like, I'm wondering if you want to go on a date this week. Bye John. So we got off to a very awkward start, which is beautiful. And I was like, yes, I do want to meet you, but I am not suitable for meeting anyone until Thursday because I'm banged up. And then we met on Thursday. I walked into O'Connell's, where we eventually had the reception for our wedding. It's an Irish pub in Old Town Alexandria. And I walked in and he was just so damn cute standing there. And he didn't speak.

It was literally out of a movie. I walked up and I was like, hi, are you John? And he said, mm hmm. He didn't say any words. And I was like, shall we go to our table? And he was like, mm hmm. I was like, well, as awkward as the emails, but that's okay. And we sat and we had steak and Guinness and then they had to kick us out when they closed it too. And then we sat in the car and talked for a long time and then the street sweepers came. So then we had to move the car and I was like, I'm going to save you in my phone.

I'm going to save you in my phone. And then the second time we went out, I called the Vegas guy and I was like, this is awkward, but I'm not coming to New York. And then I called the two other guys I was dating and I was like, this is very awkward. And I don't know if this is going to come to anything, but I don't want to be in the position to like, let's say I marry this guy that I just met. And then I have kids with them. And then I'm gonna know for the rest of my life that in between the time I met this guy,

I made out with you in the middle. So I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, and then I might do a podcast about it, and then I'd have to tell that part. Oh my gosh, you knew. There was a part of you that knew what was happening. And John couldn't speak because he thought you were so beautiful.

And then, and then when you ordered the Guinness, he knew he was going to marry you. That's what he told me. Well, it might have been the medium rare steak. I don't know. So here's the part. You fall in love with John. John falls in love with you. You fall in love with John. John falls in love with you. And as you crawl towards this soft landing space

of this relationship that could be the real thing, could be marriage, could be family, the universe does its thing and IJM calls you and asks you to come to Rwanda and prosecute child sex offenders, fight for widow's land. You have a decision to make. Stay, continue this relationship with John, go to Rwanda, do this work, some combination of both, you sit down, you have a conversation with John and this is another sliding doors moment. What was

that conversation about? Actually I had known I was gonna go to Rwanda when I met him and so a couple weeks into it I was like here to Rwanda when I met him. And so a couple weeks into it, I was like, here's the deal, you're awesome. I think you think I'm awesome. And we should probably break up because it's not fair to you because I'm going to go. Okay.

I'm gonna do this thing. And so I don't feel like it's fair to you because I feel like what you'll think is that I'll fall so in love with you that I'll decide not to go. And I'm just telling you that's not going to happen. And I feel like in fairness to you, we should probably break up because I don't want you to believing that that's going to happen because it's not. And he was like, I'm good. I'm good. And I was like, huh, all right, well, great. And then right before I was going to go, I was sitting down with him just having all of my lurching, agonized heart things about if we were going to have a life, it was going

to be like this, and this is going to be this extraordinary thing, and then we're going to do this, and why aren't we like this as a couple? Like we need to be like this and this is gonna be this extraordinary thing and then we're gonna do this and why aren't we like this as a couple like we need to be like this and I remember him just being like why do you want those things and I remember using the word extraordinary I remember saying I just feel like that that is the way to have an extraordinary life. And I feel like that's what I'm going to have. And he said, what's wrong with ordinary? I really, really want ordinary. And it was so touching because it was like, oh wait, ordinary isn't the lack of extraordinary.

Ordinary is its whole other thing that has all of this beautiful cadence and rhythm and purpose and bond and magic. And here's this lovely man that is putting a very high value on ordinary and not as a thing that lacks whatever extraordinary has, but a thing that has something that extraordinary doesn't have. Ah. Wow. Mm-hmm. Yes, what does ordinary have, sister, that extraordinary doesn't have?

Because now we are back full circle in the airport when you decide to come home to ordinary, which in your case, might be the extraordinary, because what's hard for one person is easy for another person and vice versa. For some people, the scary thing might be to go travel and hitchhike across Ireland, God help them. For you, the scariest thing was coming home and doing the quote, ordinary thing, which

was intimacy and relationship and motherhood and family and marriage, did you end up choosing the thing that was scarier for you? Yes. In fact, I remember on my wedding day, you gave me a letter that said a letter that said that I was stepping into the hardest thing for me and the biggest adventure and challenge for me. And you gave me that pendant that said, I am not afraid. I was born to do this, the Joan of Arc quote. And I think that that has rung true. I think that I have always been comfortable, whether it's flirting or traveling with the,

I will not pass this way again. And I am passing through and there are no expectations of me and I have no expectations of you. And what has been harder for me is the not passing through and the staying and the not finding something to fix the thing, but settling into the thing and trying like hell to become interdependent. And because the irony of everything, right? And this is how I think I know this is true,

that I can flirt my ass off with anyone that I'm never going to see again. But you tell me to say something I want in bed with my partner. And I am stone cold immobilized. How can someone be so flirty and sexy out there, but when it comes to the real deal, not know how to speak or even in relationship. I need help in life. I can't do that. The being there to ask someone to help me

and for them to be there and know that they're helping me. In other words, that I could not have done it without them. They know they help. They know that you need help. Not only is it horrifying to ask for it, now I've got this person running around knowing they're helping me. I'm just saying that I think for me, for a lot of people, it's being brave enough to go get the thing. And going and getting the thing has always been easy as ship for me. And going and getting the thing has always been easy as shit for me.

The staying and getting the thing is very, very hard for me. And I am very, very lucky, very lucky to have a lover of the ordinary that loves the staying. I would like to end with this, sister. I just sent you the poem that you loved, I think years ago when we were talking about this ordinary versus extraordinary thing that you found, and it's called Make the Ordinary Come Alive. Would you read it for us to close out?

I sure will. This is Make the Ordinary Come Alive by William Martin. Do not ask your children to strive for extraordinary lives. Such striving may seem admirable, but it is a way of foolishness. Help them instead to find the wonder and the marvel of an ordinary life. Show them the joy of tasting tomatoes, apples and pears. Show them how to cry when pets and people die. Show them the infinite pleasure in the touch of a hand

and make the ordinary come alive for them. The extraordinary will take care of itself. Sister, making an ordinary life extraordinary. That's what you do. We love you Sissy Bear. I just wanted to tell you that when we were talking to about interviewing you, I was talking to Allison and Dina, who of course are our family. Allison said that she was thinking about attachment theory and why she's so attached to you. And then also why she's attached to all three of us

in real life. And then also why everyone is attached and we can do our things podcast. And this is what she said. She said, if you think about attachment theory in terms of the way Dr. Becky presents it, which is like, am I real? Am I safe?

Do I matter? She said, Glennon, you answer the question for me, am I real? Sister answers the question for me, am I safe? And Abby answers the question for me, am I safe? And Abby answers the question for me, do I matter? And Allison said, I never feel more safe in my life than when I'm in the presence of Sister. And that is so true. Yep, same.

For me too. Same. And for you too. And that must be a lot of pressure. So we should send her abroad by herself once a year as a break. No, it doesn't work anymore. I know. It doesn't work anymore, by the way.

If you can't be whoever you're going to be, because there's no expectations on you, spoiler alert, when you're married with children, there are expectations. Exactly. There's nowhere you can go. Spoiler alert, when you're married with children, there are expectations on you. Exactly, there's nowhere you can go. That proverbial ship has sailed people. You did it at the right time. We love you sister bear. Sure did.

We love you so much. We love you. And to the pod squad, we'll see you back here next time. We can do hard things. Bye. We can do ordinary things. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things first, can you please

follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode pod helps you, because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us, because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner, or click on follow.

This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Ellison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. ["The Time of the Year"]