We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Save The World & Yourself with Prentis Hemphill

Episode Date: August 6, 2024

334. How to Save The World & Yourself with Prentis Hemphill  Glennon, Abby and Amanda welcome back writer, embodiment facilitator, political organizer, and therapist, Prentis Hemphill. They will be sharing with you on how to take care of yourself while being informed and doing your part to help the world and your community in the midst of the 2024 election and the crises our world is facing.  Discover: -A third way of existing in the current political landscape that isn’t disregulation or escapism; -How to get out of your head and into your body; -Why the most helpful way of being with your kids is not to protect them, and what is; and  -Why chaos is necessary for creativity and change and how to use it. On Prentis: Prentis Hemphill is a writer, embodiment facilitator, political organizer, and therapist. They are the founder and director of the Embodiment Institute and the Black Embodiment Initiative, and the host of the acclaimed podcast Finding Our Way. Their work and writing have appeared in The New York Times, HuffPost, You Are Your Best Thing (edited by Tarana Burke and Brené Brown), and Holding Change (by adrienne maree brown). And their new book is called, What it takes to heal. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Well, the Pod Squad will be very excited to know after so many requests for this, after our first episode with Prentice Hemphill, that we are lucky enough that Prentice agreed to come back to spend another hour with us. Prentice Hemphill, which you already know, is a writer, embodiment facilitator, political organizer, and therapist. They are the founder and director of the Embodiment Institute and the Black Embodiment Initiative and the host of the acclaimed podcast, Finding Our Way. Their work and writing have appeared in the New York Times, HuffPost, You Are Your Best Thing, edited by Tarana Burke

and Brene Brown, and Holding Change by Adrienne Marie Brown. And their new book is called What It Takes to Heal. And I would not be exaggerating to say that maybe 10 of the people that I respect the most have sent me screenshots saying you have read this right you have read this and I I always write back and say well now you just shown that you don't listen to my podcast. I have proof. That's so good. Prentice thank you for coming back. I'm going to kick us off here because the three of us are trying to figure out what the third way is.

Okay, so way one, to be completely consumed by the roller coaster of election coverage and all that's going on in our world. Way two, we totally drop out, completely disengage, and basically watch puppy videos all day long. I'm more in that camp. I'm down the puppy video chain. We need a third way, right? And my friend last night, they said to me, I want to do everything I can to save this place.

I also want to save myself. I don't wanna lose my personhood, enjoy this time around. Can we discuss how to not abandon our world and also not abandon ourselves? Yeah. Well, first, thank you all for having me on again. I'm really excited to be with you. And I love, love, love this question

because it's kind of the question at the center of everything that I'm trying to do. This question sort of reveals how we think about work or doing good in the world or how we even are people or like I'd say this either or. And to me, that's partly because we, you know, around work, around political work, around political engagement, a lot of our action comes from a deeply adrenalized place, deeply reactive place. I have to scroll, I have to say something, I spend all day arguing with people online

in the comments section or whatever it might be. We think about our action from this really adrenalized place. And the only thing we can do when we're kind of moving from that place then is crash or numb out or check out in some way. So it ends up being this seesaw relationship between how we take action and how it mimics exertion and rest, but it's really an overextension and depletion cycle that we end up being in. And what I wanna call us into, one of my teachers, Richard Strozzi Heckler, he would say, he does say,

he's turning 80 next month. He says that a relaxed body is the most powerful body that we have. And I say this all the time when I'm working with people or teaching a relaxed body is the most powerful body that we have. And I wanna just break that down.

But first, before I do that, I wanna say there is no manual for living through this kind of moment. I don't know that we have, yes, our ancestors, all of our ancestors have lived through catastrophes, have lived through devastation, have lived through all types of attempts on our lives and futures. And the globalness, the interconnectedness of it, of what we are witnessing in genocide, what we're experiencing in climate crisis, the economic strains on people, it's global, it's global. We're seeing how tied together it is.

So there are no manuals for how we get through this connected to each other and strategically. So we're having to figure it out as we do it. So first I wanna name that as part of what your friend is experiencing, part of what I'm experiencing, what a lot of people are experiencing. But this third way question is about how do we do it

in a way that we maintain our ability to vision, our ability to connect with each other, our ability to be creative, to be loving, to be clear and in defense of our people too, this is an important question. And I think the reactivity cycle that we're in often leaves us incapable actually of being relaxed, centered, present, creative, adaptive,

generative, building actual community. So that's why I talk about center. That's why I talk about relaxation. We can go into it more, but I think that that place of being settled in ourselves, I know it feels counterintuitive. There's so much to fear. There's so much coming.

There's so much that we are facing, that people are facing. And if we can't figure out through practice, through our own way of being, how to show up to these crises centered. Doesn't mean that I'm not afraid. I'm afraid every day.

I'm afraid every day. But I have a place in me and I have a practice that I do that gives room for that fear and also can recognize what else there is inside of me, what else there is of me, what else I'm made of, what else I long for. And that's what compels me forward. That's what causes me to move. That's how I connect with people from that place. So center, deep relaxation, that is the third way. It's not a set of tasks. It's a place where you originate. And then from there, you can see options that weren't previously available. Y'all with me? Yeah.

We're trying to be. I mean, that's good. That's good in theory for those of us who aren't you. It's better in practice. I'm sure it's better in practice. It's just like, how do I practice this? Yeah. How's the practice? How do we get to that place? I believe that that place is there. I know what you're saying. Yeah. I know it's not a set of tasks, but what are the set of tasks? I can give you a set of tasks, but I don't know if I said this last time. One of my teachers,

one of my co-teachers, and one of my elders in all of this work will often say, I can show you the map, but it's not the territory. Yeah. So I can explain to you what you might do in the practices you might do. But none of those practices will work until you surrender to them working, until you go to that place.

And that is something that no one can map for you. That is someone that no one can direct you to or guide you to. That is a surrender and a willingness inside of you that drops into that place. So I will say, you know, I center every day. I meditate every day. I ground every day. Yesterday when I was feeling very afraid, instead of isolating or numbing out, instead of taking that fear and doom scrolling until I felt deeper, deeper in the fear, I asked my wife to hold me. And I trembled.

Okay. There it is. I think what you're saying is like hitting me pretty hard right now because I think so much of what you're saying about fear and this presence of fear that shows up. of what you're saying about fear and this presence of fear that shows up. I think that that might be the root of what we all then reach for some sort of soothing mechanism, whether it's our phone or anger or anxiety, like whatever it is, it's like, I'm afraid. And like to get comfortable in the relationship that fear does live inside all of us somehow. And I think that some of these grounding and slowing down techniques that we can take ourselves through, it's like, it allows us to actually be curious about this relationship with fear. And then we can figure out protocols that suit us to try to quell it or know it better

in a way. Absolutely. And people are always like, I don't have time to do this. I don't have time to center ground. The more you do it, the less it is about time. The more I can come close to my fear to sit alongside my fear, the more I practice, the more that's easy to do. The less resistant I am,

the less I'm like trying to do smoke and mirrors on myself and pretend like the fear isn't there. The more I practice the closer I can get to it more quickly. So that I mean ten years ago I would have never asked my wife to hold me while I shook I would have been like that's not who I am That's not that's weird and kind of weak And now I know myself enough. I understand my body enough. I can say Oh what I'm feeling is fear and this tightening that I'm doing in my

body, this tensing up is because I want to tremble. And I don't think I can. That's why I'm tensing. So what if I allow myself to tremble, then the fear can be positioned in the right place, it can drop into my belly, it can become information. But the more I tense up around it, the less it can be informative for me, the more than it controls what I do. And I think this period of time is largely about fear. This period of time in our species is largely about fear.

We are afraid and for good reason. And we're also noticing that there are forces who would like to accumulate power who use fear skillfully, who activate our fear skillfully and are able to kind of harness it for their aims. Our rightful fear is being harnessed. So this period to me is like, what are we gonna do with our fear?

Are we going to be afraid, name our fears and concerns, and work together to actually address them? Are we going to be, because we deny our fear, available for manipulation of our fear? Whoa. So are you saying, Prentice, that the... Abby's question was from the perspective of someone who is trying, is afraid and is trying to stop the accumulation of power by the fear-mongering side, which is my view, the fear-mongering side.

Are you saying also that if all people were to practice this grounding thing, then the other side might not even exist because they'd be not susceptible to manipulation of their fear. Like they're getting spun up and that's why they're following. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, if we stretch it all the way out to that end, I would say yes.

I mean, I think our fear and our succumbing to the fear, our rejecting of the fear, I would say from a more progressive standpoint, it also makes us afraid to vision, to dream big, to move, to energize people. We are reactive largely, and there's a lot to be reactive to. There's a lot that's being taken away.

But we're not, in my opinion, articulating visions that really compel people to take courageous action in this moment. I think some groups and some organizations certainly are, so I don't wanna say it's blanket, but I will say a lot of us are stuck in this reactive place, which again, I'm not saying there's nothing to fear. There's absolutely things to fear,

but it's how we hold the fear that dictates what we do. And to your point, yes, I think if we stretch out and look along the line, if people are less, yeah, available for manipulation of their fear, they're going to be less likely to follow the demagogue. They're going to be less likely to look for the strong man who says, I can keep you safe by disenfranchising or disappearing the scary other.

That is part of what we're seeing. That's kind of how the party politics are playing out and people are being manipulated by, again, real fears that they have, but they're being manipulated and kind of simplified. And then strongman authoritarianism, all these things can rise because we need someone to take care of this fear that we are disowning. It's like the equivalent of people being like, I don't want to tremble,

so I'll hold the strongman. I'll let the strong man embrace me. Like the difference in I will embrace my wife and tremble with her is a beautiful visual. Right, because it's very uncomfortable to be trembling and scared. So if you have the instinct of I'm going to be uncomfortable, I'm going to start trembling,

it's much easier to align with the one who's screaming and looks not afraid. Yeah. It feels like a survival instinct, right? It's like almost what Prentice you're saying. It's like opposite of the way that we have been taught and maybe not like deep down and spiritually speaking, but the way that the world has taught us how to handle our fear. Yeah. Yeah.

And you know, for me lately, I've been kind of reflecting on this thing. One of my friends said when reading my book, he said, I feel like you gave us permission to be small in the book. And I was thinking about that because, you know, it wasn't until I allowed the possibility that I was small, that I was vulnerable, all of these concepts, it wasn't until I allowed that to be a part of how I understood myself, that I actually felt like I could tap into my actual power in the world.

And I think a lot of us have this posturing kind of power, you know, but really it ends up being empty, it isn't courageous when it counts. But I think it's because we don't have a proper assessment of how vulnerable we actually are and how much we need other people and what we offer. To me, the root of actually feeling powerful is not this strong man posturing, pretending,

but it's in knowing that I am also small, that I have something to offer, that I am connected to others. I feel extremely powerful from that place, a power that I didn't know was available until I allowed myself to be small and vulnerable. Hi, Pod Squad. I want to tell you about another podcast that you're going to love if you're not already listening to it. I recently was a guest on 10% Happier with Dan Harris. If you haven't listened, it's the episode from July 8th. Go find it. We talked about grief, addiction, love, just like really got into the depths of it. And I really appreciated Dan for wanting to take me there and being able to take me there.

The 10% Happier podcast has one guiding philosophy, happiness is a skill, so why not learn it? 10% Happier is hosted by Dan Harris, a journalist who had a panic attack on live national television. That event sparked the toughest and most rewarding assignment of his career. How can we do life better?

He's still investigating that question, and he'd love you to come along for the ride. Every Monday and Wednesday, Dan asks world-class guests for practical approaches to everything from anxiety to boundaries, from time management to psychedelics. His guests have included Brene Brown, Lindsay C. Gibson, Nedra Glover-Tawab, Pema Shadrone, RuPaul, and Dua Lipa. And of course, me. Oh, and Glennon was a guest on the podcast too.

So check it out. We love you, Dan. You can think of listening to 10% Happier as a workout for your mind. Find 10% Happier wherever you listen to podcasts. ["Happier"] So it's the vision. It feels with you and some other people that I'm always watching and so curious about, is the vision, it's like directional.

It's like the first way is so, it is reactive. I'm scrolling, I'm watching, I'm hearing the fear come. It's directionally I am turned towards that. And my entire nervous system is in reacting to something that someone is telling me a vision, a vision that someone else has that is scaring the shit out of me. beautiful and calm and strong and effective and seem to have this. Is it because there's another vision that you are tapped into that you are moving together towards? And it's like a big group of people that are all moving towards something. So you don't even have time or desire to be turned towards the other thing and reacting to that because you're in a caravan of visionaries that are moving a different way. That's a beautiful image and I certainly do feel like I'm in a caravan

but I'm in a caravan of people that are living and not living. It's a caravan that's across generations so that settles something in me and it prioritizes things in me. It clarifies what I am and what I'm up to. I'm in a long caravan. I have ancestors behind me that have been in these same questions, different pressures, different contexts, different conditions, but the questions remain. The other thing I'll say is that,

about centering and grounding and all these things, the action that I take from a centered place is always going to be more powerful than the action I take from reactivity. It's going to be more rooted in my power. And I work with people a lot with this. They're like, well, I've got to do something. I'm doing something else. I'm doing, doing, doing. But if you really assess where you are and who you're with and you're making connections and you're moving from that place, you're kind of assessing what is the move that I can make?

What is the move that we can make that will have the most impact? And I'm running that through my center as opposed to scrambling and doing what somebody else thinks I should do and whatever it might be. The action you take will be more aligned. You will stand more in it. you will be more behind it. It will have a different kind of power if it's coming from a centered place. But that and absolutely, I think, understanding myself as a part of... I mean, I'm not calm all the time.

I also want to say that I offer that trembling story because I'm not calm all the time, but I really try to feel what is mine to feel and that allows me to be here more often. Feel what is mine to feel. Damn. How do you consume media? When I'm well or not well? Both please.

I try to have boundaries around it. One thing I noticed, I think it was like last May, 2023, I got really stuck and I was like doom scrolling and I was in it in the middle of the night doom scrolling. I really was, I read newspapers, I read Reddit boards, I read Instagram, I consume all of it. But I'd gotten in this place where I was newspapers, I read Reddit boards, I read Instagram. I consume all of it. But I'd gotten in this place where I was like, I'm so scared and I'm so clamping down on my fear

that I just started to run, run, run, run, run. What I noticed was when I was spending time with my daughter, I wasn't present. In fact, I would look at her and all the bad things that could happen to me and her in the future, it was invading our time together. So that I was missing. I was missing her. I was missing our connection. I wasn't there. And so, you know, I went through that period and I was like, this can't be. This can't be the way it is.

And so I had to reorganize everything so that I could get information that I needed that would help guide and direct my actions and do it also with constraints that allowed me to be in relationship with the people that I really wanna be in relationship with and be present. And sometimes bring that there there sometimes hold it have spaciousness be able to play with my daughter It's a dance that I think all of us have to figure out how to do every day

Are the constraints? Time yeah or particular types of media that you feel are more Level is it both? Yeah, I would say it's time. It's like not after this time, not during this time, not in the room with her. There are constraints like that. But yeah, I think there's also this feature saying

about what I'm consuming. I try to consume more thoughtful and depthful things. Like people that know what they're talking about. Instead of, I'm consuming a bunch of comments by people that are in the same kind of terror that I'm in. Yes. I'm trying to consume less of that. Yes, that's such a good distinction.

Seems so sane when you say it like that. Yeah, I think one thing that I just wanna pick up on what you said Prentice, when we are consuming media and then let's just say we go to a dinner table, we are bringing with us all of that stress, anxiety, fear, and it will change the way that we interact with our people. It does. It does. It does, it does.

It just does. You know, the kids Prentice will say to me, they will talk to me, I'm in this right now a bit, okay? And they will ask me a question and it takes me second. I'm not even listening to them. And they say, oh, mom's underwater. And I'm there, I'm sitting with them. And they feel the gone-ness.

And we know energetically that it has consequences. I'm bringing it to the, I'm so scared it's going to come to them that I am bringing it to them. Yeah, that's, oh wow. Yeah, mm-hmm, absolutely. Yeah, and that's sort of what I mean by, when we're centered, what we do, the quality of what we do, it's and that's sort of what I mean by when we're centered what we do the quality of what we do

It often gets ignored where we're like, oh I did that's why it's like we have a checklist of things to do But what is the quality of how you are doing? I was with my children this much What is the quality of the time you spent with them? And what will that mean for their future? Oh That mean for what you are equipping them with? That part, you know, that part that we can't quantify as easily, the quality, part of what I'm saying is that matters so much. It matters so much.

Our presence matters so much in a way that I can't emphasize enough. Yes, there are things to do. Yes, there are lists that we have, I have things to do every day, but the quality of how I do them changes what they mean and what they do. That's right.

And that's so important for this time. And I know there's so much pressure, but it doesn't diminish the fact that our presence and the quality of how we act, the quality with which we engage with each other, it's still important, if not increasing in importance. Yeah. And it doesn't sound to me like you're saying, well, okay, we have to consume our media over here and keep it divorced from and disintegrated from our relationships. I mean, if we're avoiding the frenetic mind meld of the consumption and instead just feeling it, then we could

be with our child and be like, I'm so sad because I'm thinking about Palestinians. I am so sad mommy's going to cry for a few minutes. Be with me. That is more real probably than spinning like a top around them. It's such an important point you're making because, you know, I always say part of embodiment for me is it's not that we're saying thinking is bad, thinking is wonderful. I do so many amazing things because I think about them. But it's running some of my thoughts through my heart, through my gut, letting those be

in conversation, letting the thinking live inside of the rest of the body so that I know that my body has limits. Like I actually can't consume endless amounts of things without having to dissociate and without getting stuck, you know, without having parts of it stuck in me. Like I witnessed something and then I held onto it for the rest of the day. But did I feel it? And feeling it, taking time to feel it,

actually allows it to change us. Yeah. We have to feel the things we're consuming so that they then reorient us. Again, it's like the fear is then allowed to be information. The feeling is allowed to be information if we let it move through our body, and we have to understand the pace at which we move,

pace at which we digest, so that we can consume in that way, engage in that way. And as people who love other people, when we feel it and we are honest about what we're feeling, it's like, I'll never forget this for the rest of my life. I have an older kid, they were home. I was in the midst of feeling very sad about Palestine. Okay?

And I told myself, don't fuck up this kid's trip home. So Prentice, they would come home and I would get up and start painting and turn on music. I would tell Abby, turn on whatever, like, let's be happy. Like, let's just not. The kid, two days in, came and sat down on the couch and was despondent. And I was like, baby, what's going on? What's wrong? And they said, I don't understand how to live here, I don't understand how to live here where everyone just goes on. Why isn't the world stopping?

Why are people outside playing volleyball? Why isn't the world stopping when babies are dying? And I thought, oh my God, I could have just sat there and been myself and said, I'm so sad. And he would have felt less alone, but instead I created this shit. Yeah.

And it's just so powerful cause it's such an example of the way that we constrain and try to control. And it's like, actually the connection through these big feelings, through these big fears and injustices and witnessing genocide, that the connection actually makes it possible for us to be real about what's happening. And so your child is like, I actually need connection. Something feels disconnected here. Everybody's just

operating in this disconnection. I'm longing for connection around this. But part of what we learn about being adults or being whatever it is, whatever the label is, is that we actually have to disconnect from who we are. I believe it deeply prepares our kids, young people in our lives. If we can look at these things through connection, you know, don't leave them alone to do it

because they're doing it, they're witnessing it. So don't leave them alone in that. And don't show them that people should be left alone inside of these devastating events that we're witnessing yeah it's powerful i think if we think i can't fix it for you yeah then the come on the extension of that is so i can't even feel it with you or i can't come on that i can feel it with you but what if the sadness together is the connection? What if that's it? It is.

Glenna, come on now. It is. What you're talking about? I mean, that's the fixing part is often not wanting to feel. We move towards fixing to skip over feeling. Yeah. So I can't fix this. So it has to disappear because that's the only way to skip over feeling. So I can't fix this, so it has to disappear

because that's the only way to address big things. No, there's this whole realm of feeling and connection, again, that quality thing. And who knows what will emerge from that? Who knows what is possible once you do that? But there's this whole world of just being with, of being connected, of being witness. It doesn't mean we don't take action, but the actions we take from feeling are going to be more informed than the actions we take from just trying to fix something.

Yeah. You know what? This is a risk to say this because it's not. This is a false equivalency, but that feeling thing, I've been thinking a lot about in this moment how angry white women are about the state of things and how much that is rooted in this idea that this should be fixed, this shouldn't be like this. We should not be on the precipice of this happening where our rights are going to be taken away, where fill in the blank. And it's so deeply upsetting that it comes out as anger and we're gonna mobilize and we're gonna fix. And that's a good thing. I'm in support of that. But when I've tried to just spend time thinking, feeling, feeling it and being like, why is this so deeply upsetting to me? Like, what does it feel like in my body?

And the feeling has led me to this connection point of like, oh my God, why do I think I'm an exception to this? Why do I think things should be set up to be right for me when every year for the past many hundreds of years, black people have been killed and then their killers have been exonerated by our court system over and over.

The system isn't working or is working, depending on your view of it, but I started to feel how it might feel to live in a system that is intentionally made to not work for you. Yeah. And that allows a kind of solidarity of like, holy shit. So this is what y'all have been feeling? Yeah.

And it's a very different spectrum. And this is what we've been trying to say. Yes, of course. You said that chaos is where creativity is. So if we can stomach a bit of chaos, we might be able to build power. Help us understand the possibility of a little chaos. I'm feeling moved by what you just shared.

I just want to say that, but also just kind of moved in this question of like, why does it always take this, you know, grief and pain there and understanding. Is the grief and pain that just, is it the idea of like, we have tried so hard to tell you all this for so long and why wasn't the killing of our bodies enough to wake you up? Yeah. And I, you know And I have understanding around that. I don't get it, but I get it.

But yeah, why does it not matter when it's always been this way? And I saw someone, we posted a TikTok, they were like, you know, they're talking about how divided the country is. And I wish I knew who the creator was,, they were like, you know, they're talking about how divided the country is. And I wish I could, I knew who the creator was, but they were like, it's actually not any more divided. It's just that white people are divided about, that some of them are saying the humanity and the rest of us, that's where the division is in a way. But my people have been disenfranchised and abused for a long time. Indigenous people have been disenfranchised and abused for a long time.

Indigenous people have been disenfranchised and abused for a long time. So yeah, I think that I think there's been a way that we've been. Looking critically and naming the systemic issues for a long time and saying, you know, it doesn't just stop here, which I think would make people feel like, okay, I'll be comfortable if it just stops with you all. And we've both been saying, our lives are important and meaningful. We are feeling what is happening

and it won't stop with us. Both of those are important reasons to act. So I think once human beings understand that, and I don't know how we will do that, deep solidarity, I think that's when we're on a new road and we can understand that before it gets to us. Yeah, yeah. And when you don't even have to add the,

and it won't stop with us, the fact that it's just happening to us should be enough. Yeah, because you already feel identified with me. This question around chaos is one that I'm just like swirling in right now, because in somatics work, the lineage that I come from, there's this point in transformation of a person being body, where things get chaotic. And it may be for a moment in a session where someone is deeply disoriented in terms of their feeling new things or, you know, new memories are coming up. It's a moment of disorientation.

It can also be a period or season in someone's life where suddenly the things that they thought they wanted, they don't want anymore. Suddenly they're unsatisfied. They long for something else. It's a moment of disorganization. And it's necessary for transformation. Because without the period of disorganization, it's kind of like, without shaking the soil up a little bit, you can't get the seed to plant deeply in.

You'll just be adding a habit on top of worldview and a framework that is pretty solid. There's a logic to how all of us behave. It's taking care of something. And if you go, oh, to be a good person, I need to do this. You just slap that on top of what already is a pretty solid logic. It's not gonna set in.

So what you need is a period of disorganization actually or something new to settle in, for things to open and loosen. So semantically, that's an important part of the process of transformation. actually, for something new to settle in, for things to open and loosen. So, somatically, that's an important part of the process of transformation. In this moment, you know, when I've been watching closely Biden's reelection campaign, and for a long time I've been one of those people that is like, he needs to step down. And the reason he's not stepping down is because people are afraid of what will happen. People are afraid that Democrats will lose,

and so he's not stepping down. They were afraid of the chaos, the uncontrollable, the new, and so they kept advising him to stay in, even when it became, to me, deeply illogical for a number of reasons. Absolutely. I think that the right deeply understand that chaos is an important way of grabbing power.

They generate and create chaos because it opens up lots of things. You take people's fears, you create some chaos, you create chaos in the news cycle, and you can grab power, you can destabilize norms and resettle in new ways of doing things. The right uses chaos. I think they rely heavily on fear to generate chaos. But I think people, progressives, folks on the left, Democrats, tend to be afraid of chaos and white knuckle then what has been in a way normalcy. We're going to return to normal. What normal are we returning to? It is not there anymore. I hate to break it to everybody but I don't believe personally it's Prentice Niphil speaking. The normal that we're trying to return to does not exist. So instead of trying to return to that normal,

why not take this moment to be visionary? To actually speak to the fears and concerns and the kind of latent connection and unity that is here. Generate a vision that actually speaks to that. Break up what has been, because it's not working. It looks stale. that is here, generate a vision that actually speaks to that. Break up what has been, because it's not working. It looks stale. Everybody knows that.

So step into something new. Breathe some new life into it. I think chaos holds the possibility. It doesn't mean that that is what will happen. Chaos could also be very destructive. But chaos can also be deeply generative if inside of it. You know, I always say because of conflict facilitation, all the work that I do, I can be in chaos without being chaotic.

Yes, you can. Yes, you can. Because of center. I can be in chaos and I don't have to be chaotic, but I can see what's inside. I'm like, okay, oh, this is happening. This is what's really here. This is what's been suppressed. How do we take that and move it into something that has some meaning, that activates people, that speaks to who we can be? So that's why I get excited about chaos. And I will say,

I saw us like have a moment of chaos, and then it quickly we're like, that pulls that off. moment of chaos and then it quickly we're like, ah, pulls that off. And I understand it. And I think our intolerance of the messiness actually does us a disservice often in the long run. God, when you talk like that, it gets me to my like, it's like you can take the girl out of the evangelical church, but you can't take her out of the like

scriptural shit. And I just go to like, yes, big bang. And then we breathe the new world into existence. And we say, let there be, and let there be, and let there be, and let there be. And that is how new worlds begin. There has to be nothingness, and then there has to be chaos, and there has to be bang.

And then there has to be people saying, let there be this. That's right. And then you speak new worlds into existence and then they become somebody spoke this shit into existence. Okay. And we keep rebuilding it every day. We keep saying, well, this must be the way. Somebody was able to step outside and say,

I'm going to create, I'm going to create from this chaos something that serves some people and does not serve, can't even imagine others. But a lot of us, I think this is also a question of power and our sense of our own power, our sense of our power together. We have to create, recreate and create

something that has not been. Or honestly, we're really facing, in a non-hyperbolic way, this question of will we create or will we perish? Yeah. And I hope we create. You know, it reminds me of a relationship, like to ground it in, you know, if you're in a partnership

and then there's a wild betrayal or something like profoundly shaking up that partnership, the thing that doesn't work is to try to quote unquote go back to normal. That doesn't work. So the idea, it's like when you hear about successful That doesn't work. So the idea, it's like when you hear about successful reunifications and stuff, it's we have a new partnership now. That's right. We have recreated, we understand that the old way is done and we are saying, here's our new life and our new rules and our new creation. And it's always sick and ick when it's just, let's pretend like that didn't happen

and go back to normal. And that's kind of our, I think in the US, that's kind of the emotional way that we do everything is that that kind of relationship. Let's just snap back to the way that things were. And it's, yeah, it doesn't allow for, we have to deny. We have to deny what we know about each other. We have to deny what we know about ourselves

in order to do that. And it will run its course, you know, we'll become untenable at some point. And I hope that we wake up before that. I just wanna ask you, as we, many of us move in, continue inside of groups and organizations and coalitions and movements, you recently said, I'm not something like this. And I'm just paraphrasing, but you said, I'm not just focused on how to do hard things, but how we stay together in hard things.

I don't know that. Can you? Wait, you know a lot about hard things. Yeah, but the togetherness, the like, how do we work through, we have groups of people who have, who might want to be in a caravan, but who all have different opinions and different stuff. Unity is tricky. It's like unity can't be sameness. How do we have unity without sameness? And how do we get through conflict and screw up and not abandon each other? Especially in the Democratic Party, right? I wasn't going to say that, but like, just...

I mean, I'm just being real. Like, it's hard. It's hard for all of us to please all of the real issues that everybody experiences. Also, could you just give us an answer that also applies to partnerships and families and parties and the nation? That would be super great. Just one size fits all would be helpful for me. Thank you. Oh. I mean, the lucky thing is that there are lots

of correlation, but it's not exactly the same. We move away from each other when hard things happen because we're afraid that we will be hurt. There's a threat there. And we move towards isolation because we're like, I'm safer on my own. I'm safer away from you on my own. And that, I'm not going to say that doesn't

make sense in some scenarios. I'm not going to say that that's not maybe at times the choice to make. I'm saying with those people that we are trying to be on the same team with that we're trying to go in the same direction with, we have to practice, and I mean practice, before it's time, practice how to experience something hard, find ourselves again, find the purpose for connection, and turn and reach for each other again. Because if we don't do that,

we will break down into the smallest components possible. When we talk about being together, you know, I think there are probably things that we disagree with each other about on this call. I would imagine we don't know each other, but I would imagine that we don't agree on everything. But there's some set of things that we do agree on. And if we can be clear about what those things are, work on those things together, we might through relationship shift each other some. We might deepen each other's understanding of issues as they pertain to each other. It's a live practice of building connection with each other. But you know, there's this thing to talk about couples that I tried with couples,

I used to do couples therapy. It's like one person holds the end of a string, another person holds the end of the string. And you got to kind of keep it taut, but not pulling, you know, like fill your presence in it and have your argument with that string between you. And you'll notice that some people want to like let go, they're like doing everything they can to let go of the connection, let go of the string. Or some people like trying to pull the other person over to their side. I'm the puller.

You're the puller? I'm the dropper and runner. She runs. Uh huh. Uh huh. You're the puller? I'm the dropper and runner. I'm the puller, she runs. Uh huh, uh huh. You're like, ah, dropping this. But what will it take? What kind of questions, curiosity, communication, boundaries, clarity will it take to keep the thread taught? To keep the connection there, to assume connection, but also assume that the connection can hold and withstand difference. I think we're gonna have to do that.

You know, when I see, I'm looking right now, I'm watching so much of what's happening on social media. And I guess I wanna say this explicitly. You know, to me, I'll just say the presidential election is not where I do most of my work. election is not where I do most of my work. It's not where I do most of my organizing. It's not where I do most of my political work. It is not to me the most important side of practice for me.

I do vote. And I think for a lot of people, maybe some people, I don't know how many people, that is one of the most important places that they practice. To those folks I would say, let it be among many things that you do. Let it be among many things that you do. We don't only need your action, your voice there.

We need your action, your voice in many, many places. So I'll say that. But I see us kind of breaking down in some ways, and I guess what I wanna offer to that But I see us kind of breaking down in some ways. And I guess what I want to offer to that is that I am not interested in shaming anyone about what they think is the most effective move in this moment. I think there's actually a lot of shared care around the rights of people in this country and also the lives of people elsewhere,

particularly in Palestine. I think there's shared concern and there's difference on how to get there. But I think it will serve our side, for lack of a better word, if we understand more about where the other is coming from. We do a lot of like fighting with each other and I understand why we're trying to push each other. But the assuming the worst of each other is not to me an organizing stance, is not organizing someone into your perspective

and your viewpoint. It's real easy. Social media just rewards this kind of like back and forth dehumanization thing. I think there are real critiques and ways that we can not only get behind someone in this moment, but use this moment to clarify what it is that we care about. We care about a ceasefire. A lot of us care about that. That doesn't mean that we shut up about it. How do we be strategic about how we bring it to the conversation in this moment? A lot of us care about stopping Trump. How do we share what that means to us and be heard and be strategic about how we move towards doing that? So I think there's a lot more room than social media really allows for us to have these conversations To find our common points and mostly I would say to be strategic about how we move forward in this next period of time

so that there is space for the disagreement and their space for Moving forward the things that we deeply care about. I don't know if I answered your question. Yeah, you just always answer more than the question. But I was thinking about that this morning because we're making the best moves that we can figure out to make with the particular lanes we're in and power we have and yeah age we are and all the things. And, you know, in particular, I see it play out actually in my own family quite often because I have some real badass kids and it is possible that there is a perception of,

well, there goes my white lady mom doing her white lady thing. And there is a sentence that someone in my family said. They said, I am afraid that identity politics is going to stand in for real justice. That the idea behind that being you think if we just elect somebody who's a woman, who's a woman of color, that justice is going to happen. No, that's not it. And so I understand that. I get that deeply. And I am saying in my that and I think I'm just gonna keep doing everything I can do to get this person elected

with the power that I have, because I think that you will still be able to activate and organize under this administration in a way that I don't even think is possible with the other one. And then I think when I'm doing the thing and then people in social media are yelling at me about doing that because of this issue.

I tend to think, oh God, I'm doing it wrong or am I right or are they right? And then I think, what if everybody's doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing? What if those people are supposed to be yelling at me in social media? What if we need them? What if that's exactly right? And I am supposed to be doing this. What if the part of this beautiful chaos is that I actually need you to do that shit.

Like I need. And if I'm in the place you talk about, which is not just fear and reactivity, I can live there. I can live there. I can let it be okay. You can let it happen without defending yourself. It reminds me of in your book, when you talk about Melodoma Patrice LeMay, when they say conflict is the nature of a relationship asking to deepen. That when we look at this political moment in that, it's when you say, let's get behind Kamala Harris, Glennon, and then in the comments people say,

what about Palestinians? There's one way to view that, that is saying, I want to be part of this relationship. I want Palestinians to be in relationship. So please deepen, please deepen your connection with me. Please open to me. Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. It's saying, who are we in relationship with? Who is seen in this relationship?

And you know, binaries get us so caught up. And sometimes we think we need to do one thing sometimes at the expense of the other. And I mean that on every side of everything. I will say, Glenn, I think your point around being able to organize under what administration is more organizing possible, this is something that I deeply care about and think about.

I don't think that the people that I'm in community with, organization with, I know some amazing, amazing organizers and I still think there's a lot that we need to build and grow and get clear on as a movement of people. And I want us to have more time, more space to do what we still need to do. And that is a factor for me, is thinking about how the repression of our movements will happen. The how of it is a major factor for me. And at the same time, I'm critical. I'm critical of, not as my like, I just am critical.

I'm critical in the sense that everybody as a human being that has concerns and things that they care about and histories that they have and beliefs that I don't understand. When I think the challenge around the political spheres that we often, especially when we talk about folks in the national stage, we start to make deities out of people.

They start to say, this person is so great and they're so amazing and so awesome. And I support everything that they do. And I think a lot of people are suspicious of that kind of allegiance to somebody in the political realm, because it often means that the concerns of so many people get disappeared. And we see it happening in the political sphere now. It's like making people into deities. And I think we have to be more complex, more grounded to say, wherever you put your support or wherever you don't put

your support, I know that all of this is made up of human beings, of complex interests, access to power, decision making power, et cetera. It is all complex. And that my role in the world with them and with anybody else is to be in relationship, is also to organize. Once I'm understanding what's happening in the world and understand a strategy that we might undertake, I wanna organize them and everybody else

to understand and to build power together. And if I make somebody a deity, it makes it hard to remember that they are accountable to the people, accountable to the concerns of the people, and they should be movable to the concerns of the people. And we have to hold that alongside whatever it is that we support. That this is human beings that we're talking about, that we want to care for and that we want to move. Prentice, I think that anybody who gets to spend an hour with you is really, really effing lucky. So thank you for sharing your time with us. Just thank you. That was my favorite

hour I've ever spent on this podcast. And I really needed it. So I'm grateful. Yep. Thank you all. These are really thoughtful questions. I really feel all of your hearts engaged in these questions and that's, it's a gift to be in conversation with you all. So thank you.

Thanks for letting me come on again. We can do hard things. We'll see if we can do them together. Do hard things together. A little, it's a little asterisk. Prentice asterisk. A little extra credit from Prentice. We do them together.

Exactly. All right, Pod Squad. We'll see you next time. Actually, we should probably just quit the pod there. That was just as good as it's going to get. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, again. Bye. Bye.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod.

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and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. I walked through fire, I came out the other side. I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe that I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I walk the line Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map

A final destination we lack We stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do our thing I hit rock bottom, it felt like a brand new start I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine We're adventurers and heartbreaks on that

Our final destination with that We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard today

We're adventurers and heartbreaks on back We might get lost but we're okay back We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things