We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Spot a Narcissist with Caroline Strawson

Episode Date: May 23, 2023

Trauma therapist (and survivor of marriage to a narcissist) Caroline Strawson joins us to discuss: how to know if someone’s really a narcissist; how to know if you’re more likely to get into a relationship with a narcissist (and avoid it); strategies for parallel parenting with a narcissist; how the brain and body respond to narcissists; and how to rebuild after ending a relationship with a narcissist.  CW: Abusive relationships, self harm For more related episodes, check out: Episode 170 The Most Radical Way to Heal: Internal Family Systems with Dr. Becky Kennedy, Episode 169 Why We Love the Way We Love: Attachment Styles with Dr. Becky Kennedy, and Episode 142 Codependence: How to Stop Controlling Others with Melody Beattie About Caroline:  Caroline Strawson is a Trauma Therapist and Coach specializing in helping others heal from the trauma and shame of narcissistic abuse. She hosts the Narcissistic Abuse & Trauma Recovery Podcast and is the #1 best selling author of Divorce Became My Superpower. Having been married to a covert narcissist herself, Caroline was in debt, lost her family home, and was at rock bottom with PTSD, depression, anxiety, and self-harm. Caroline integrates Internal Family Systems, Somatic Experiencing, Brainspotting and breath work with positive psychology, to help others move from post traumatic stress to post traumatic growth. TW: @cstrawson11 IG: @carolinestrawson To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm not the problem sometimes things fall hard. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Today we're going to learn about narcissists. What types of people tend to be end up with narcissists, how we can spot narcissists in our life, we are going to try to narcissist proof ourselves during the next hour. And to help us with that, we have a wonderful, fascinating expert. Her name is Caroline Strassen. She's a trauma therapist in coach specializing and helping others heal from the trauma and shame of narcissistic abuse. She hosts the narcissistic abuse in trauma recovery podcast and is the number one bestselling author of Divorce became my superpower.

I feel you on that, Caroline. Having been married to a covert narcissist herself, Caroline was in debt, lost lost her family home and was at rock bottom with PTSD depression, anxiety, and self-harm. Caroline integrates internal family systems, yay, somatic experiencing, yay. Brain spotting and breath work with positive psychology to help others move from post-traumatic stress to post-traumatic growth. Ew, post-traumatic growth. I like that real thing. I do too. I love that.

I know I know. I know I know. Oh, yeah, it's great. So positive psychology term we use, where we actually go on and lead an even better life because of the trauma you've been through. It's phenomenal. It's a real passion of mine.

Yeah. I love that term. I love that. I already feel like I've learned enough. So passion of mine. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I already feel like I've learned enough. So that's it. Okay, let's put it alone. So narcissism is a term that people throw around casually, but it's a real thing like ADHD, like gaslighting, depression. It's a condition a real diagnosis, but it's also, it's on a spectrum. So what are some of the characteristics of someone who is on the narcissism spectrum? Can you tell us so we can avoid them when choosing friendships and romantic relationships?

Please help us. Please help us. I know. I'm going to help myself here. I think it's a really interesting concept when we talk about narcissism because it is a diagnosable condition. It's listed in the DSM, along with lots of other mental health disorders. And in the DSM, they list nine traits and to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, you have to have five or more. The problem being, though, with medicalizing narcissistic personality disorders, the number of things. One, it's

only five traits of nine that you are supposed to get the diagnosis. And actually, it's over 30. It isn't just this linear nine things that you would get if you were a narcissist. There are many because there's many different types of narcissists too. The other problem with making it a diagnosis, and I see this online, you know, with a lot of my posts on Instagram. Are they diagnosed? Now, the problem is, and I'm sure we've all encountered narcissists. No narcissists will ever go, hey, do you think I'm a narcissist? I need to go and get a diagnosis.

That was my question. No, no. A narcissist diagnosed secondhand. Is it an indirect diagnosis? Yeah, it's like being a... No, no, no. A narcissist diagnosed secondhand. Is it an indirect diagnosis? Yeah, it's like being... Have you been diagnosed with denial? No, by definition, you were in denial.

And the problem being is that is what are the traits of an narcissist, zero ownership and projection all at the time. So they really, the only time where people actually do get a diagnosis is often, if they're in a relationship and the other person says, we need to go to therapy, we need to fix this. And they do it from a cognitive perspective, thinking they can probably triangulate with the therapist and such. And then they may end up with a diagnosis. But all the research, it's very, very rare. And this is what makes it such a divisive subject because we've medicalised it, because we've said, okay, they're not a narcissist unless they

have a diagnosis. But if you had flu, you wouldn't need to go to the doctor and get a diagnosis for that. And actually, the term narcissists is really for the survivor to know that it's not their fault. And this is where I love internal family systems as well, because how I talk about narcissism is, narcissists aren't born that way. They are created from childhood. So going back to some of your questions, so they're created from childhood.

And they are actually some of the most wounded individuals out there. And what happens is they have this emotional wound, the narcissism is created in childhood, and if we look at IFS in this instance, IFS is based on we all have the essence of who we are, our true self. We have these childhood traumas that creates what we call exiles, these inner child wounds, and as human beings we're built for survival, so protect our parts will come up to diminish and minimise the pain of what our systems think would be the most pain to feel. Now with an arseuses they're protectoparts are things like gas

lighting, manipulation, coercive control. So I tend to look at an arseuses as an individual who has gone through childhood trauma. They then have these protectoparts that are abusive and very reactive and we can label then the collection of protector parts that are abusive of that individual as a narcissist and that could be a whole array of protector parts. So just because we call them protector parts doesn't mean they're not destructive and I like that because we can do the same with codependency for instance as well, who has a magnet to an arseist. I want to talk about that

because Caroline, you were married to an arseist but you did not know that until he left you. So walk us through the piecing together of that for you where you begin to connect to the pieces and understand him as a narcissist and understand what you went through as narcissistic abuse and Before you do that Caroline, I just have one question with my Always worried about the person who's not here and underdog thing and then I'm gonna get over that and then we're gonna move on to this. I have depression and anxiety and all the things.

You know how there was a time when nobody would claim that and there was all this stigma around it. Or we ever gonna go to a time where narcissists, a stigma's gone from it and narcissism is something that people are working on actively and are embracing that label or is that impossible inherently in the

condition? Because it's a condition. I agree. And I think that's why I like the IFS the way we can look at it. Yeah, because there's still compassion. There's still human compassion that they're wounded individuals. Right. And we can explain the abuse even though we're not excusing it, we can still understand it. And I think from research, from science right now, there is no cure for narcissism. But what we do know is things like psychedelics, actually, they have helped some, but not to the extent where they're still able to be in a healthy relationship. They can minimize and dial down potentially some of the abusive protective parts, but not to the extent where they are really capable of having a healthy relationship.

So who knows, as of now, no. But again, from a compassion perspective, who knows what the future is called? I think the problem with saying that they can be cured or they can be, if you're in a relationship then in somebody else, I'm with a narcissist, and now they're okay, you start to think, well, am I not good enough? Yes. I can't heal this person then, and that actually isolates people even further. Okay, thank you for that.

I'm so sorry, please go back to CCC. So when we are talking about narcissism, when I was in my marriage, I was brought up on happily ever afters, Disney stories, all of these things, keep your family together at all costs. So when I was in up on happily ever after, you know, Disney stories, all of these things, keep your family together at all costs. So when I was in my relationship, I started to feel like things weren't right.

And after we had our son, things really started to go downhill. But again, my parents were still together. We stayed together. I made my vows and that was it. We were going to be together. I didn't want to be a single mom, all of these things, but I knew things weren't right. And he used to work away from home a lot.

Then when I was pregnant with my daughter, I'd had four miscarriages between my son and my daughter, so you can imagine it was a really traumatic time. And I felt very alone. And then when I did fall pregnant with my daughter six months into that, had an affair. And probably from then things really went downhill too. But even with that, and even when I found out about the affair, I eventually when he admitted it, the evidence obviously stacked up, but I ended up comforting him about having an affair, because he had it because I was sick and pregnancy. And also the woman he was having had a affair with I also comforted her. So, the only pregnancy to the extreme, right? I'll make it okay that you've had an affair. And my mum passed away 14 years ago actually today,

which is a wedding convention that is today. And because that happened a year before we split up, again, I was focused on looking after my family, my dad, all of these things. But I knew things weren't right. I was feeling isolated from friends from family. But again, I was focusing on being a mom at all costs. I keep my family together because I didn't want people to judge me. and I felt like I failed it if my marriage ended. And actually, he ended up leaving me because he obviously met somebody else, but I realized I'd completely lost myself.

I did not recognize myself. I was looking down all of the time which is signs of shame. And when I came out, I actually started seeing a therapist and I remember he said to me, go and Google narcissistic personality disorder. And I remember going home and I came out, I actually started seeing a therapist, and I remember he said to me, go and Google narcissistic personality disorder, and I remember going home and I was like, oh my God.

What were the things you were reading that made you feel? So it was things like, predominantly the gaslighting side of it. And I felt like everything was my fault in the marriage. And I felt like there'd been pretty major things that had happened. So multiple affairs, financial, element, I'd been the marriage. And I felt that they've been pretty major things that had happened. So multiple affairs, financial, element, I'd been totally isolated. I was earning more than my husband when we got together.

And then I had very limited work that I was doing. I was to stay at home, mom. And some of the things that he would say to me and I would question things like he came back from work one day and said he killed somebody. Now, we can kind of go what? That's not happened, but when you're in it and then he's explaining things to you and looking you in the eye, you start to think, well, maybe it did happen. And then I was a bit of a detective and trying to find things because my gut was saying that's not true. But then I thought my husband's looking me in the eye and telling me it is, and it was really confusing.

So there was a lot of times where he would say things to me and I would really start to question myself, I go in crazy here. What was the point of him telling you that he killed somebody? Yeah, go back to that because you said, people are gonna be like, wait, what the what? But he had said that he had failed to give someone proper CPR at work.

Right. And his reaction was, therefore, I killed someone. And so that's a perfect example of, look at it from this perspective. Is that true? Look at it from this perspective. And it gets worse even with regards to that. So he came home and he was eight hours late coming home and I was really worried. So he'd come up with this story and it's about what had happened.

And when he came home he worked for an airline so when he came home and I was like, oh my god are you okay but it didn't make sense. Obviously having a medical background myself and the things he was saying, I was questioning him on that and rather than him answering the questions what a narcissist will do will hone in on how you ask the questions. Stop asking me that. Ah, you know, so you're kind of like, oh, okay, not answering the question, but how you are. And it got to the stage where I did keep hounding him for a couple of days,

saying, you need to speak to the airline. They should have let me know you were eight hours late. So when he went back to work, I said, you need to speak to your line manager about this. You know, it's not acceptable. Anyway, he called me up and he goes, you'll never guess what? And I was like, what? He said, she's actually really grateful and sent in a letter of thanks because she survived.

And I actually saved her life. You know, now we can laugh. That's the thing. We laugh about all of these things. But when you are in it, and somebody is saying that and it's so confusing because it's so confusing because it's like, that can't be true, but he's telling me it is. So you're kind of left and it gets to the stage where he just think, there's no point me asking. And this is where we isolate

ourselves, we retreat, we become very lonely, with shame, because we know the marriage isn't right, but we're worried if we tell people because narcissists are very different in public than they are in private. And everybody thought he was a great father, a great husband, and all of this was going on behind closed doors, which increases the shame around it as well. Do we know now that he was just having a fair during that time or was that story at all true? Yeah, it wasn't true. And believe me, there are plenty more like that

of these stories. And I look back even afterwards and I kept thinking, did he know he was lying? Or did he actually feel the truth to him in those moments? And I don't really know the answer. But what I do know is, and again, this comes from a trauma-informed in IFS lens. His core wounds, because I know what his childhood was like,

his core wounds were to not feel his pain. So just like I told the words, they will say and do anything to get out of anything. They will project outwardly. So he would say and do anything up until that point. He couldn't get away with it. Literally. And even on those occasions, I remember even seeing like a flicker of can I still get away with this and then he did Mit something and then he's start crying and then obviously the co-dependent me would kick in and I would comfort him and that was like the cycle of our relationships. Wow. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. So does he know he's an artist? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, about that parallel. So parallel parenting is really a term we use. And the thing is our court systems are broken around abusive relationships. They're not trauma informed. And this makes it so challenging for people going through that. And I've not met somebody and I know

there will be people out there who do this, but I've never met someone who's deliberately trying to stop the other parent from seeing their children. I'm sure there are people who do that, but I've never met one in my communities. So what parallel parenting is, is really where we can tick the boxes for the court, where it looks like we're co-parenting, we have a communication system set up, which we call extreme modified contact.

So we still have maybe a separate, totally separate email address for them as well. I always advise people to go and get like, you know, one of those old brick knockier phones that we used to get like years ago, like massive, go and get one of those. So it's not coming in on your regular phone because especially when people are trauma bonded for instance, when they've the relationship is ended and you're looking to keep that communication going. So you still need to tick the boxes, say, from the court that you're still going to have communication set up. So yes, I have an email. Yes, there's this for emergencies. So think about

parallel parenting like a train track. So one side of the track is one parent. The other side of the track is the other parent, the narcissist. The carriage is the children. So the carriage can still run smoothly, but those tracks never meet as well. So it's really important to disengage because narcissistic abuse is trauma. It is abuse. And our nervous systems go totally dysregulated. We go into a fight, fight, freeze, or even foreign responses in this. So we need to focus on our mental health, just like, you know, when we're parenting, we need to put our oxygen mask on first. So we have to focus on our mental health just like, you know, when we're parenting, we need to put our oxygen mask on first.

So we have to focus on our mental health. Yes, still have some forms of communication to tick boxes for the systems that are out there, but we have to focus on our own mental health because otherwise it's so challenging. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and I'm someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast,

Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward embarrassing and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios.

Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so narcissistic abuse is abuse. In most abuse of situations when you're co-parenting, you then can protect your child from that abuse by bringing it to the court and then the court understands that this is a dangerous place for a child to be. Are people married or divorced from narcissists uniquely situated to have to send their child into an abusive situation? Because if a narcissistic parent is narcissistic, aren't they definitely going to do the same thing to your child?

And how do you talk to your child about the partner's narcissism and protect them? It's so difficult and there's no easy answer to that because again, a narcissist, whether it be going through court or not, will portray themselves to the system of this loving parent as well. And it can make it really challenging and they get labeled as high conflict divorces and they're not high conflict divorces. They're divorces with an abuser. And I think this is the key thing, but a narcissist will create high conflict divorces

because whatever you say, they will say the opposite. And also, if you're going through the court system, you know, narcissists can be very convincing in given moments. It can be very charming and look like the perfect parent even. And this is why when we look at things from a trauma and form lens as well, if you imagine polyvagal theories where we talk about the nervous system is on our hierarchies, I talk about it from a traffic light perspective. So the green light is when we're in ventral vagal, our social engagement system, the yellow light is when we're in the fight fight response and producing

more cortisol in our sympathetic and the red light is when we're in d fight fight response and producing more quarters all in our sympathetic and the red light is doing when we're in Dorsal Vagal we're in shut down we're in freeze often the child when they're with the narcissistic parent will be in a freeze response okay They'll be in the red light. They're protecting themselves, but externally somebody looking at that child in that situation might think Well, actually they look really well. But hey. They look that they're fine with that parent. But if someone is a formerer, yeah, if they're not trauma aware, they will think, well, everything's okay. Now, the problem being even more so is when the child goes back to the non-abusive, non-narsacistic parent, because we know that the nervous system is on a hierarchy, the child will shift

that into a sympathetic response, be a lot more aggressive sometimes, anxiety with it. It looks like, well, hold on, look at how the child is with you and look at how they are with the others. And if someone isn't trauma informed, it can be so challenging. And that's why the whole system is broken. Because sadly, they don't understand how a child behave when they are in trauma and what how that presents. So yeah often yeah often I will say to

parents if they are more aggressive, more anxious with you it's actually because they feel safe over exactly and they're in freeze when they're with the narcissistic parent. It feels to me like this is a shitshow. Yeah. That's my official diagnosis. Yeah. And is it mildly? Yes. So let's move backwards and let's talk about how to avoid this shit show. What are some red flags? I know that you've said sometimes it takes to like a sixth date or something to really start to be able to identify someone as a narcissist. Can you give us some red flags in people, narcissists, simple things that we might be able to see? So when you say initially start being in a relationship with a narcissist,

and again, narcissists can be loving relationships, they could be parents, friends, co-workers, whom ever. If you think they want to hook you in, so their drug of choice is what we call narcissistic supply. So they're going to behave in a certain way to get you hooked in so you can continue to give them narcissistic supply. So they're going to say and do all of these things that actually your inner being is absolutely craving to hear. Was that love bumming? Is that what love bumming is? Yes, it is exactly what love bumming is. So again, those of us who end up in relationships with narcissists will have a real, sort of,

I'm not good enough wounds, I'm worthless, I'm not important, I'm unlovable. So we will have a people pleasing part and we'll show you what a good girlfriend we are, what a good wife we are, what a good sister, daughter, friends, co-worker we are. And what the narcissist will do is they will say things to you that really fill that hole in your soul as such as well But the red flags of this will be things like all my exes are crazy I mean, and again, these could be anybody as well, but if they're coming all together with this, I see how we're all nodding our head I see how we're all nodding our heads. Mm. And that too.

Another one is they'll say, I love you very, very early on. I've never felt like this before. I really love you. And this can be like on their third date, for instance, okay? They'll want to move in with you very, very quickly as well. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, The only lesbian is just turns over. A lesbian just causes them to like wait. The the the the diagram with lesbian and narcissists. So can we get past that? Something that does imply to all lesbian. Okay.

Okay, so do you remember this is a just singular leave? This is kind of collectively as well. Yeah, we're not saying that. We're not going to. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Definitely not. So the other things that are there, let's say you go out for a meal, okay, and they're quite rude to the waiting staff. These are start to be red flags. They're trying to impress you and kind of, you know, exert their sense of power, for instance. They'll start to subtly

say things about maybe your appearance, how you dress. They might start to say things about your friends and your family. One of the key red flags is when you initially start out in a relationship and let's say you've got a circle of friends or maybe you're due to go out with your friends that weekend. They will start during that week to bring up things just to keep like dropping little bombs towards you about, is sure you want to go out, didn't say so, say that about you the other day. They'll start to try and create a divide between you and your friends. Then they will normally, right before you're due to go cause a big argument. So when you eventually, if you go out that is, but if you do go out, you spend your evening then

messaging the narcissist and you're not present with your friends So then when you go back and you're with the narcissist they say, well, didn't your friends find you messaging me? Maybe they want me to go out with you again And they'll just start to plan all of these seats because they want to isolate you from your friends and your family And they'll do the same thing with family. You say that about your mom your dad, you know They don't understand you like I do and they'll just create same thing with family. You say that about your mom, your dad, you know, they don't understand you like I do. And they'll just create that divide

because what the narcissist wants is you all to themselves so you can keep feeding their wounds, their supplies, so they feel better. They want to control you in all of that as well. Is that the key they're trying to get fed? Say more about that. What is the point of the nurses? So it's the same for all of us as human beings.

We will all have some form of trauma, these emotional wounds that normally have come from our childhood where we've interpreted certain situations in a way. My father was very unemotional. So for me, if I did really well at school or I was good at sport, I was always seeking praise and approval from my dad, which never came. But as that child, my interpretation of it never coming was, it must be me, children of our ego, sentient, it must be because of

me. So I need to try harder, do more, be more. And that created really an emotional wound, my exile of I'm not good enough. So my system then, it's almost like that was my biggest wound that I, my nervous system didn't want to feel. So my system then, it's almost like that was my biggest wound that my nervous system didn't want to feel. So I would have lots of protector parts coming up like high achieving, people pleasing, perfectionist, but then just like you were saying, I always look at everybody as parts and I use a lot of parts language. When I work with people, you don't have anxiety, a part of you is anxious and that anxiety part is trying to protect you from feeling something that your system thinks would be too dangerous for you to feel. So when we look at things like

this say from a narcissist perspective, they're protector parts that are coming up like love bombing or emotional abuse or control or manipulation is projecting their pain outwardly for someone else to behave in a certain way so it actually soothes their wounds. And it's the same for all of us. The problem being with a narcissist is their protector parts then become their false sense of self. You can never get beyond that to work on that inner child wound. And it means that like like all of us, we would take some ownership responsibility, we could work around all of this and we'd look at that. Narcacists don't. If I could work with a narcissist and help them heal those in a child's wounds, I do it in a heartbeat. The problem being is they don't feel like they've got a problem.

They're behaving like that because of you or because of somebody else. And that makes it really, really challenging. And in some respects, it's incredibly sad that they're so deeply wounded that their protective parts become their sense of self and we can't get beyond that. When we talk about red flags of these folks, I'm feeling so much compassion towards younger you, you know, younger everyone. If you are listening to this and you have found yourself in a position to recognize yourself as having been in a relationship with an

narcissist. Congratulations. Because you are now a thousand steps ahead of where you could be, which is wallowing and never knowing. Or thinking that is your fault. Right. Right. Right. Let me try definition. You think you are doing something terribly wrong to aggravate this wonderful person until you're able to see it with new eyes. So my question, Caroline, is do you think like we can talk about these danger flags of I can recognize in myself that I am codependent, so I am more susceptible to this. I can recognize in someone else that if they're trying to isolate me from my family and friends, that that is a red flag.

But do you think we're capable of stopping it before it gets there? Or is that just like the parts of them that need to be narcissists? There are parts of us that are being fed by that. Oh, that's absolutely right. That we need to walk through it. Absolutely.

You tend to find, again, codependence, which we could have as a collective term for somebody who has protect-apartes like people pleasing, perfectionism, anxiety, depression, addictions, even, because all of these are about distracting away from what a core wound is. A narcissist, though, is almost like the external protector part for a codependent. The narcissist soothes the codependence, core wounds, if not feeling good enough. And that's why then they become dependent on them because they feel better.

And it doesn't mean the wound isn't there because at some point, if we look at the narcissistic abuse cycle, initially, it's great. We're producing the oxytocin, the dopamine, the serotonin. It feels good. They're telling us all the things we want to hear. But then we will start to question something or we'll maybe push a boundary a bit. And the narcissist will react.

We will then go into a fight-flight freeze or form response. We produce more cortisol, adrenaline, or a pin of red. And we actually become addicted to that cycle of hormone release then as well. And that's what we call the trauma bond. And it actually often, those who end up in narcissistic relationships, it's taking us also back to a time of what we believe is our version of love. Yes. It takes us back to, I don't feel good

enough as a kid. So it felt normal for me to be in a relationship with someone to not feel good enough. That was love wasn't it? I didn't know any different. And I was literally physiologically addicted to the highs and the lows. And that's why I was addicted to struggle all of the time and feeling like my life. And I kept thinking, God, why is all this happening to me all of the time? Well, I was creating that because I needed that rush of hormones all of the time in my life because that's what I was physiologically addicted to.

Caroline, we have had this ongoing conversation about how good, safe, stable love is boring as shit to people who grew up that way. And why are we dispose of it so quickly for this sexy, shiny object of drama and it's really hard to settle into? When you were just talking, we did a conversation with Sarah Edmondsson who was in a cult for a very long time

and what she was talking about as how they were, she recruited folks for this too, how they were specifically trained to love bomb the shit out of everyone at the beginning. She spent 12 years in it. She said the rest of her time in that cult was all trying to get back to that initial high

of that initial love bombing. And so is that what you're saying that you have filled my wound from the beginning and then you're slowly taking it away from me. And so I have to chase and chase and chase after that initial feeling. Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. And the dynamic between a narcissist and say, co-dependent is the co-dependent will think it's their fault.

But if the relationship isn't where it needs to be, it must be me. So I need to work hard up. I need to do something about this. So that's where you'll have protect your parts coming up. The problem being is many people that stay long term in these relationships will then start to go into a freeze response. And we live in what we call functional freeze then. So, you know, I was functioning. I was doing my children's pat lunches and I was taking them to school because I had to, but I was literally in a permanent freeze response. I was highly dissociated. I wasn't feeling anything.

I'd got all of these protective parts for me coming up to try and protect me. I was drinking more. I had a really strong emotional eating part to distract me in that moment away from my core wound, all of the time which then I felt bad about myself. So you're just stuck in this cycle all of the time and yeah you're absolutely right the narcissist will hook in and I think it's really key to think

about this because what you were saying there is almost like a conscious intention of doing that you know they were taught to love bomb at the start. Narcissists don't necessarily consciously know what they're doing because a lot of people will say to me, are they aware that they're doing all of this? Well, a narcissist primary intention is to not feel their own wounds. That is what drives their nervous system just like for all of us, not to feel what our core wounds are. Because of that, of course, it's going to hurt somebody, because we receive their projection of their pain in course, it's going to hurt somebody because we receive their projection of their pain in a way it must be my fault. So my interpretation of my ex-husband was

he's being like this because of me I need to change. I need to do something about all of this. The power then in healing is not in changing the narcissist. That's why the term narcissist isn't for the narcissist. It's so that I then knew it's not my fault. And that's why I talk a lot about narcissistic abuse and narcissistic trauma. We cannot change the abuse. The narcissist won't change. What we hold on to is trauma. Trauma is doesn't have to be a life sentence. The narcissist highlighted in me with a great big spotlight, let's be honest, all of my core emotional wounds. So, he's shown a spotlight on that, whether he was there or not,

my wound was already there, but the fact of the dynamic of that is he's shown a great big spotlight on that, and that actually woke me up to what was important, my own healing, he's still the same, but my wins obviously always are working progress, it's never a destination. You just keep working on that too. So I don't react now as a trauma response, as a nervous system response to my ex-husband, because I know and feel good enough. Yeah, I know I was, but my body was telling a different story. You changed your whole attachment story. That's right. So is this in simplified terms? If we could have, sometimes have genetic counseling where somebody looks at us and says,

all right, according to your body, this is what you're at risk for. And so avoid this. So if we could have personality, how we were raised counseling that was equivalent to genetic counseling, somebody could look at us and be like, okay, you were raised by a parent who made you fight for love, who you never really got enough from. You have a tendency towards codependency. So you're really going to have to avoid people who aren't narcissists. And this is how, because if a person

who's not codependent goes on a date with a person who's a narcissist, what happens in that date is the person hears some shit, and they're like, I'm here looking for love, and that doesn't feel like love, so I'm out of here. But the person who's codependent, because they've been raised by a parent who made them earn love, sits at that date and thinks this feels like love. Yeah, you go right back to those really moments with your parent and you're like, oh, this is what that feels like. I remember this feeling. So is the only way to deal with it working on your own codependency?

It absolutely is. The power to heal is within ourselves. And really, those of us who end up in narcissistic relationships long term, that is, will have normally an anxious attachment style. We'll have a wound from childhood that has normally been created. relationship's long term that is will have normally an anxious attachment style. We'll have a wound from childhood that has normally been created. And it can be from a narcissistic parent where we don't feel good enough. Equally also a codependent parent.

My mum was highly codependent and I loved her to death. You know, literally just the most amazing woman. But as I was going through my own healing process, I realized my mom created the need in me to need her. So I remained very childlike for a long period of time because for me, I was trying to get love from my dad, who was narcissistic, I got love from my mom by staying child like she'd created that need. So if I needed her, that gave her a sense of self-worth as well. So the dynamic then for me as an adult was, I needed to be needed myself because of that sort of generational cycle. So I had then attracted someone into my life. And when I look back, it wasn't just partnerships, it was friendships as

well. You know, I started to look back and think, oh my god, I've been at the narcissist, Magnet, oh my god. Talk about that. I want to talk about people who have friends who are narcissists. What does that look like? And then let's talk about people who have parents for narcissists because is there a version of parallel daughters and parents? It is.

It's really difficult, I think, when it's a parent as well, because there's an element of, they're your parent, and you love them and they brought you up. But equally, there still can be boundaries. I have a very boundary relationship with my father now, and I think at the end of the day, we can only do what we can do, and it has to come down to ourselves

when I think about my relationship with my dad for instance. I am doing the best I can as a daughter, so I can look in the mirror and think, I am doing the best I can as a daughter, so I can look in the mirror and think I'm doing the best I can as a daughter. Does it mean I don't have a relationship with my dad that I would love to have? I'd love to have a great relationship with him, but he's not capable of that to have that level of relationship I would love to have. So we have the best relationship we can, but with boundaries for myself as well, and also with friendships too, I talk about it being a friend's cleanse, you know, as you start to realise some of your friends, as we get older,

you know, my friendship grew as guys started to mature as you go along, but I realised one in particular when I split up from my ex-husband, I realised she latched onto me and she was going around telling everybody, oh, I'm really helping Caroline through all of this, you know, she couldn't get through it without me. So of course, they were all saying to her, you're such a good friend, which of course gives her the supply. And I started to see this and think, wow, I've been surrounded by narcissists and not even realize, no wonder I'm on my knees and I'm exhausted because I'm giving everything to everybody else all of the time and I've really had to work hard to bring it back to myself and it's not easy because I love helping

people. I naturally like doing things like this and I've had to really understand the boundaries around all of this and no is a full sentence. I don't need to write an essay to anybody if I can't do something and justify it. So you call it a supply. So a narcissist friend. They're like a, I mean, for a better word, it's like a leech. It's like a something that needs this thing. I want you to actually tell us what is a narcissistic friend because I can't understand it easier in a relationship, but with a friendship, can you give me some characteristic traits that can help me understand? Yes. So some of the things would be if you're in a friendship with a friendship, can you give me some characteristic traits that can help me understand? Yes, so some of the things with it, if you're in a friendship with a narcissist, you'll start to say to yourself

You feel like you're you're giving everything in the relationship and not getting something back We also need to check in because really as friends we shouldn't give to receive something either You know, but there's an element of where you feel like all of the time you are giving in this relationship almost to the point of exhaustion and you're not getting anything back. They'll also, again, start to gossip a lot, so I call it a gossiping part. They'll start to talk about other people, try and separate people in the friendship groups as well, trying to isolate people. And again, what narcissists are looking for and that includes narcissistic friends is, they want to literally be like the top of the Christmas tree. They want to be the one that you are focusing on the most.

And they will talk about other people. And let me tell you, if people are talking about other people to you, they're going to be talking about these other people as well for 100%. 100%. However, they might say, don't say anything or this. So it's all theater we've all I mean that's a bonding too it's like you trust me so much that you're going to

tell me this thing now we share this little secret thing even though that person is sharing it with everybody yeah absolutely and again that feels good to a co-dependent because you think I'm special you know she's been like this with me and everything. So again, you think, great, I've got an amazing friend. We've got this amazing bond. I trust her. You know, some of the things with one of my friends was, you know, we've got children, similar ages. And I asked her to look after my children after school one day

because I had my clinic for the day. But I was paying her for that. So I set up, I would pay you for this. Yeah, I looked after her children probably five times as much in the week. Didn't take any money. It was fine, but I wanted that obviously because I'd got my clinic. And then when I was going through kind of the start of my healing process, my therapist said, you need to stop doing anything for anybody else. You know, you putting a you putting the washing machine is good enough. And I was like, okay, so I remember saying to my friend, I'm really sorry I'm not

going to be able to look after the kids, you know, for a period of time. And of course the reaction was and we all don't, oh, yeah, that's okay, then. Okay. Yeah. And you're kind of like obviously on edge. And of course, I'd be like, well, I'm really sorry, I'm sure it won't last for a really long. And I'm really sorry I'm short, I haven't lasted really long and I'm really sorry about this but this is what my therapist so again an over explaining part, over explaining. Over explaining. Absolutely. So people who are anxiously attached are anxiously avoidant people less likely to get

attached to narcissists. So anxious potentially, yes, there's no one size fits also to speak. You tend to find with pure anxious attachment, they need to be close to somebody because they're looking externally for someone else to show them that they are worthy because they've not been shown that as a child. If we think about it developmentally, they haven't gone through the process of somebody making them know that just for breathing, just for being themselves, you are good enough. There's the anxious attachment. Do you think you're anxious? No, I think I'm avoided. Oh, that's what I meant. I went avoidant. So I was definitely anxious attachment when I was

in the relationship. Then when I came out and I started my healing process, oh boy, did I go off course? I did. You did. You did. You've been crazy now. Did you avoid it for a while? Absolutely. The barriers were off. It's like, yeah, you're not getting near me. Thank you very much. Absolutely not. But I still did for a while. I went on dating websites after a couple of years and I still was attracting some narcissists into my life. I ended up having a six month relationship with Ward because I was out there dating when I should have been dating myself initially and really working on myself for. But that was when again, when I thought just time and talking would actually help me heal.

I didn't realize then, and that's why I've totally retrained. I needed to work in the body, and that's, hence, psychosomatic experiencing, and IFS and brainspotting at EMDR. I needed to work in my body at a nervous system level to truly heal, and keep on working towards that as well. What is brain spouting? So we all kind of have heard of EMDR, so where we used the eye movement.

So brain spouting was actually founded by a guy who used to teach EMDR and he was working with this ice skater this one time and he was doing his eye movements and he noticed at one point, her eyelids flickered a bit, so we just kind of held the spot. So brain spouting is eye position and it's almost like because our eyes go all the way back to our brain stem. So we use eye position then where we naturally let the body process the trauma and integrate that as well. It's super powerful. EMDR, we tend to get people to think of certain images and it can be quite exposure, like it can be quite dysregulating. Whereas brain swathing doesn't do that. It just allows the body to hold space

to actually heal at a deep level and it's amazing. I love it. And that, I use that in combination with like somatic experiencing and IFS and just by parts, Mac people so we know, this isn't you, this is a part of you. But that in itself is really non-shaming, it's non-pathologizing.

Even though we can label people as narcissists, it's not like narcissistic personality disorder. There's still an element of humanity and compassion behind all of that as well. You just said that after you got out of this and you're healing and you ended up in a six-month relationship with someone who was a narcissist. That resonated with me right after my divorce, which was very horrendous. I found somebody who looked, same profession, same everything as that person. And there was something in me that needed to go back in with this new person who was a mirror of the old person

and like make it different. Be different. Like I get that person touched me and then I break up with them. Is there something there with that? Definitely. Okay. As human beings, we naturally want to heal. We're always looking for these corrective experiences, corrective attachment

experiences to heal those core wounds, which is why we tend to keep going back to those relationships as opportunities to actually heal from them. Often that may be never and sometimes that can happen as well. Also, it's the trauma bond. You come out of a narcissistic relationship and let's say they found supplies somewhere else for instance. You're still needing the fix of the kind of serotonin, the dopamine, the cortisol, the adrenaline. So you naturally will gravitate then to relationships to fill the serotonin, the dopamine.

That's why a lot of people, like you say, you know, I could have put the most amazing person in front of people when they spit up from an arse assistant, like you say, eh, nah, not staying in that relationship, it is boring. It doesn't serve me. I don't like that. Where's the toxic person out there that's who I want to be in a relationship with? The brain lights what's familiar and that feels familiar because you're still alive, you're still in the relationship. And this is how our nervous system works. It doesn't mean we're not in pain. It just means our nervous system thinks we're in less pain than something else. So that's why we keep on. That's why,

you know, when we talk about things like even actual physical pain, so many people end up with autoimmune disorders for instance, and one of the things that actually attracted me to IFS at the start was, because it's an evidence-based parts therapy, they've done a research study on re-retoid arthritis, which is my mom had re-metroid arthritis, but they looked at it as a protector part. And that made so much sense to me. So my mom had a lot of childhood trauma, then obviously married my father,

and pain for my mom, whilst obviously it was painful, because she'd got re-metroid arthritis, to her nervous system, it was still less painful than sitting and feeling like an eight year old little girl who wasn't good enough. Oh my God. So both painful, both painful.

But actually the nervous system's like that little girl feeding like that, that is the pain we don't want to go to. Caroline. Oh my God. So actually the rheumatoid arthritis for my mom was like a savior for her. She didn't like it and it was painful. You know, and for me, that was like,

whoa, wow, we're amazing as human beings. Yes, we are. Our bodies always working for us, regardless of how we're showing up. Just stop there for a second because I want to hold a beat for when people trigger warning, when people cannot understand cutting addiction. It's because there is a protector part who says, this thing will distract me from pain that is even worse. Okay. Let me give you an example. When I spit up from my ex husband,

I used to feel such shame about it. So one of my protector parts was self-harm. So I used to literally gouge out the tops of my legs. I felt incredible shame about it. So one of my protector parts was self-harm. So I used to literally, you know, gouge out the tops of my legs. I felt incredible. Shame about it. I didn't tell anybody about it. But now I know. That was my nervous system going, whoa, Caroline, you are feeling like a seven-year-old little girl, not good enough. That is painful. So focus on that. It is painful, but it's still less painful than that. Thank you for that. It's a beautiful reframe to think. I know when I went into recovery recently,

my dear friend Liz wrote to me and said, thank God for everything that you've done to protect yourself until now. And thank God that now you don't need it. No shame for those things. Those are survival strategies. Those are survival strategies. I think that a lot of our podcast who's listening

is probably thinking one of two things. Am I a narcissist or am I with a narcissist? Like that's what probably is going on in everybody's mind. I know I'm doing it. This whole conversation. I'm like so scared. Do I have three or two of the nine? OK, I thought you were wondering if you were with a narcissist.

No. OK. Yeah. No. Yeah. Is this a couple of seraphisa? Yeah. Yeah. That's it. We're going to have you take the quiz after that.

I thought it was the first time. That's what I'm curious about. I'm slipping your DMs. How do I either self diagnose some of these traits? Because even if I don't have more than five, if I have one, I want wanna figure out what those childhood wounds that I'm trying to cover up are so that I can heal. How can we figure this out if we have it

or if our partners have it or if our friends have it? It's a really great question. And the simple answer is, if you are even asking yourself, if you are a narcissist, you are not. Yes. Oh, yeah. Because no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no are even asking yourself if you are an narcissist, you are not. A narcissist. Oh, yeah. Because no, no narcissist is ever going to go, I wonder if I'm an

narcissist. I wonder if I am. I really wonder if I am an narcissist. They're just not going to do that ever. OK. The other thing is, a narcissist will never take any ownership or responsibility. And again, if we're looking at it, say, through an IFS lens,

we can have similar protector parts with some things as well. I could have a diction or angle or even control as a protector part, but I can get past those and recognize if I hurt somebody, I don't want to do that. I'm really sorry, and I'll take ownership and responsibility. A narcissist will never, ever take ownership or responsibility of any of their behavior whatsoever. And I think that's a really key thing to remember. And the other thing, when we talk about narcissists and code appendants, when you're in a relationship with a narcissist and many people will start to almost behave in ways that they can't imagine they would ever behave it, we have something in our brain called mirror neurons. And those who end up in relationships with narcissists already have more mirror neurons than the normal person,

because most are also empaths when they're in relationships with a narcissist too. And there's a lot of science around this. And because we have more mirror neurons, we end up mirroring the narcissist behavior because it's like, well, if I mirror their behavior, surely then that must be okay behavior. and they'll diminish the abuse that they are using against us. I have lots of people who come to me, both my parents were narcissists, both of them were and I'm like, okay, let's explore all of this. And very often the one they thought was the narcissist when we dive deeper, actually sometimes isn't.

They are just the codependent mirroring the narcissist to stay safe in the relationship. Hmm. Whoa. big question that if a partnership, a relationship between a codependent and a narcissist is really, as you say, two people just with sucky things on each other, getting their supply met. Tell me in a short sentence, what does the narcissist need that they're getting from the other person? What are they sucking out of their society? What's their society? They need other people to make them feel like they were the individuals. So they are attracted obviously to people pleases because the protector part of a codependent will be say people pleasing. So they will give, give, give.

The narcissist way of soothing their wounds is take, take, take, take. So it's a match made in heaven for them. And then what is the codependent need from the narcissist because they're both sucking each other dry? They are. What absolutely. So the codependent needs the other person to behave in a certain way so they can almost have a calm and nervous system knowing I am good enough.

I am good enough. I am worthy. I do matter. I am loveable because they're behaving like I am. Okay. So both people are trying to get their worthiness from the other person directly. What is love then? Because we all want to feel worthy. And now I'm just thinking, is love getting high on your own supply? What is the difference between two people next to each other who love each other? And two people who to each other who love each other?

And two people who are just feeding each other's wounds. Yeah, I think it all starts with ourself at the end of the day. We need to learn to love ourselves and know that just for being ourself, we are good enough, we are worthy and not needing somebody else to show us that. You could be in a room of a hundred narcissists and feel unloved. That doesn't mean you're unlovable. It just means you're not loved in that moment.

So we need to start to think about that as co-dependence and wanting then to have a healthy relationship. Really, the term we should look at is interdependency where we can go off and do our own thing and it's okay and we support each other but we also have common ground together and we can come together and support each other and really healthy love to me is how well you manage conflict in that moment when you have something you disagree about to never going to agree on everything it's how do you manage that you? Do you immediately have a protector part of your own coming up and you get defensive, you go offline in your brain, then the other one goes

offline and a protector part comes up as well. That's when it can start to become more challenging. With my husband, for instance, we will have conflict now and be married now and we will have conflict and obviously I've done a lot of work, he's done less work, but it means I'm very aware obviously I've done a lot of work, he's done less work, but it means I'm very aware when he has a protector part say coming up like anger or something, then I don't take that personally, I just know something's going on in his system, so I can stay calm in myself. And in that moment, I know how to speak to him to help calm his nervous system as well. This is so beautiful because what you've just described and gladden when you're talking about what love is and to Abby's point about how can we all know that we're not with narcissists or our nurses is it's like. Love to me is is responsible for themselves.

I mean, I can be a complete asshole in my relationship. And often- Oh, me too. But I am, but I can own that. I'm like, I, yes, I did that thing. And I'm working on that thing and that thing is really hard for me. And I'm probably not going to get it right for another 10 years. And my partner can know what they do that is not correct

and know where we struggle. But I feel like when you're going back to the other person, when you're not responsible for yourself, when you say there's something empty in me, there's a problem in my life, and you are looking to the other person as the reason that's a problem or an answer to that problem.

And never knowing that you're responsible for yourself. That's when you get in all this mess, right? Because what you've just said is the narcissist can never be held responsible for anything. Everything is deflection. Everything is someone else's fault. Everything is because you did it or the world did it to me. And nothing is their own. Absolutely. Remember, a narcissist is totally blended with their protector parts. They have a false sense of self, it's protector parts. If you have a part to part relationship with somebody,

so they're in there, protect parts and you are, it's never going to be a healthy relationship. What you want is ideally a self-to-self relationship, but also the recognition. When I use this type of language around my husband, because let's say he said something and I feel like he's not listening to me or something, I can feel an anger part coming up.

Now, my anger part represents when I feel unheard, it'll come up. I've got a Wonder Woman doll that I use as an external representation of my anger part because I used to feel a lot of shame about getting really angry. But my anger part comes up when it's almost like, hey Caroline, I know you're feeling unheard right now.

I'll come up for you and you're actually feeling that core pain, but I will say parts language to my husband and say, okay, I've got a real anger part coming up now because like the little Caroline is feeling really unheard right now. And immediately because I'm not saying, stop saying that, I'm so angry at you. Immediately he starts to calm down as well because we see a totally

different dynamic in the relationship. And this is beautiful with children. You are not a bad child. That part of you that was showing up right then, I love you, but that part of you, yeah, let's work on that. If you had to ask that part of you showing up right now, why are you there? It immediately externalizes bad behavior as such, they from a child or an adult. And it's not you. You are amazing. That part of you is there for a reason.

So we're looking beyond just immediate present behavior. Caroline, I'm just picturing like families, couples instead of just trying to talk to each other and couches, we should all be in those little like fake stages that families have, you know, those fake on a puppet show, cardboard puppet show. We should all just be communicating through puppet shows. Every time there's a conflict, just hold up your Wonder Woman, hold up your crying in the corner. Honestly, it would revolutionize it because all of a sudden, you would know, if you understand, you would know if someone has a course. Honestly, it would revolutionise it because all of a sudden you would know if you understand,

you would know if someone has a part of them, it's because their little person is hurting. Yes. And you want to help, you want to understand. That's a system, don't do that. Most people would have compassion and empathy around that as well. So it becomes a completely different dynamic in relationship. Nobody's a bad person. These are just parts showing up to try and distract

their inner system from feeling pain. They can be destructive, but they have a positive intention. But for all of us, including narcissists, it's a beautiful thing. So the gist is, the narcissist is perhaps not a bad person either, but they have a part that has swallowed them up, like the imbobitable snowman. And that part is never going to, as far as your research has gone, is never going to identify itself as a part. That is the whole thing. Yeah, they can't, correct. They don't recognize themselves. It's, they become so blended with those parts. That becomes who they are. It's almost too dangerous to go within and look at the Pain of those parts that in a child. It's too painful to go there. That's why when I think of my ex-husband and the same for any of the listers who think You often see the narcissist will go off and it looks like they're really happy now, so it must have been me.

They're in a great relationship. That's what truth. Of. Of course. It's just in that moment, somebody else is giving them supply, but they're never truly happy because their system is constantly working so hard not to feel what their core pain is inside. And our sisters are also codependent. They have a lack of self-worth. It just is their protective parts are a lot more proactive and abusive that show up for them to minimise their wound. So everyone here, Caroline, when she says, just because they have the parts and they're not bad, they are not fit to be in a relationship with

them. This is the explanation of the excuse. Yes, this doesn't mean work harder so you can understand this means run like every loving one. Right and care on to you. Thank you. I just feel so like so many women are scared to talk about their stuff because the world. Thank you. Your courage and honesty and openness is, well, it's it's it's world-changing because it's helping us understand the shit we're in personally and you are a good example of post traumatic stress growth growth

post Yeah Yeah, thank you for being from the post traumatic stress. Yeah, and bringing all the data and the science just something that has previously felt Like it's not even a reality, like it's something that we're just existing in, I feel like bringing that to this conversation is so empowering and deshaming. It is like the scientific equivalent of like, you're not crazy. And it's really valuable. And I have learned a lot.

And thank you for spending this day with us. I know knowing that it's a special day for you having less your mom on the stage. Just we're grateful to be with you today. Thank you. It's been my pleasure. Thank you. Beautiful.

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We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Keynes 13 Studios. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlyle. I made sure I got one's money And I continue to believe That I'm the one for me And because I'm mine, I walk the line I walk the line Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak So man, a final destination

You're glad, you stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartbreak I hit rock bottom It felt like a brand new star

It felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem sometimes Things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers And heartbreak some man

A final destination With that we stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find a way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do a hard thing This world finished her rose and heart breaks on my way My guilt lost heart we're only in that Stop asking directions

Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be loved We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives breathe We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things you