We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Stay In Love: Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody

Episode Date: October 16, 2025

Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody join us for a heartfelt, soulful, and delightfully chaotic conversation about:  - How to make a marriage last;  - The importance of quiet; and - how we can hold tight to our own humanity while demanding a more humanitarian world.  This conversation is an urgent reminder of how we can all use our voices to make the world more beautiful. Join us now.  About Mandy: Mandy Patinkin is a Tony Award–winning actor, singer, and storyteller whose career spans four decades across stage, film, and television. He’s known for unforgettable roles in Evita, Sunday in the Park with George, The Princess Bride, Homeland, and Criminal Minds. He has toured the world with his solo concerts and collaborations with icons like Patti LuPone and Nathan Gunn. Since 2020, Mandy and his wife, fellow performing artist Kathryn Grody, have offered a delightfully unvarnished glimpse into 45 years of marriage online—sparking live shows with their son Gideon and a new Lemonada Media podcast, Don’t Listen to Us.  About Kathryn:  Kathryn Grody is an Obie Award–winning actor and writer whose work spans theater, film, and television. She won Obies for Top Girls and The Marriage of Bette and Boo, earned a Drama Desk nomination for her one-woman play A Mom’s Life. She has long been active in advocacy with groups including the International Rescue Committee and Downtown Women for Change. This fall, she premieres her new one-woman show, A Radical, Rollicking Rumination on the Optimism of Staying Alive, exploring the transition into elderhood at 78 years young.  On their new podcast, “Don’t Listen to Us,” Mandy and Kathryn are giving you unqualified advice on everything including love, life, dolphins, work, art, bewilderments, relationships, pasta, aging, embarrassments, triumphs, ponderings on how to get through this crazy world. No question too small, no dilemma too big, no story too strange, no musing too trivial! All are welcome.  00:00:00 Introduction 00:03:41 Welcome Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody 00:05:37 Mandy playfully promotes Kathryn’s new show 00:09:31 The surprising reaction from young people 00:10:48 Mandy Patinkin’s dog, Becky 00:13:26 Mandy on how he feels about getting old 00:15:40 What Kathryn does after Mandy goes to bed 00:16:46 Mandy and Kathryn debate a recurring “issue” in their marriage 00:20:06 The first time Kathryn saw Mandy 00:27:10 Mandy and Kathryn share their repetitive marital issues 00:31:39 A hysteria about losing time 00:34:03 How a pause in the conversation can leave space for others to join 00:38:45 Glennon shares her appreciation for Abby’s gift of conversation 00:45:30 The gift of having a more talkative partner 00:50:35 Kathryn on how we need to be more generous in sharing resources 00:52:48 Holding on and trying to make the impermanent parts of life stand still 00:55:54 Why a wishing well is meaningful to Mandy Patinkin 01;02:50 How Mandy’s and Kathryn’s Judaism forms them today 01:08:36 Mandy Patinkin’s powerful thoughts on the Middle East 01:12:40 Why women should run the world 01:15:28 Mandy Patinkin’s plea to younger / older listeners 01:19:31 Mandy does not want to meet Glennon, Abby, and Amanda Follow We Can Do Hard Things on: Youtube — @wecandohardthingsshow   Instagram — @wecandohardthingsTikTok — @wecandohardthingshow

Mandy Patinkan is a Tony Award-winning actor, singer, and storyteller whose career spans four decades across stage, film, and television. He's known, of course, for unforgettable roles in Evita, Sunday in the Park with George, The Princess Bride, Homeland, and Criminal Minds. He has toured the world with his solo concerts and collaborations with icons like Patty Lepone and Nathan Gunn. Since 2020, Mandy and his wife, fellow performing artist, Catherine Grody, have offered a delightfully unvarnished glimpse into 45 years of marriage, sparking live shows with their son Gideon and a new Lemonada media podcast. Don't listen to us. Catherine Grody is an Obie Award-winning actor and writer whose work spans theater, film, and television. She won Obie's for top girls and the marriage of Betty and Boo, and earned a drama desk nomination for her one woman. play a mom's life. She has long been active in advocacy with groups including the International Rescue Committee and Downtown Women for Change. This fall, she premieres her new one-woman show, a radical rollicking rumination on the optimism of staying alive, exploring

the transition into elderhood at 78 years young. These two, what you are in store. They're the best. I mean, this hour, these two, obviously, there's a reason they are two of the most beloved lovebugs on the planet but in this hour you get to feel it this like way that they have brought so much joy and commitment to their marriage to their parenting and to the planet they talk about um the arguments they have over and over again and what they really mean they talk about um what it actually means to love a dog or raise a child and how they're similarly the same. The terror and beauty of watching time pass so fast

and trying to hold tight to it and then how their Judaism has compelled them to show up in this moment on this planet exactly how we needed them to. Just snuggle in and listen to these two and allow them to heal your heart. they're um marriage goals goals goals but what is so cool about them is they've been separated twice in their lives like so it's that it's just very credible it feels it feels like um goals is like

maybe that's attainable it feels like they struggle and they're messy and they were actually in our conversation kind of working some things out you saw them be like what i would like from you is could you do that for me it was very special to be a part of yeah they're like still actively fighting for their marriage their connection and their love which at their age i'm just like that's it's goals yeah it's goals exactly yeah there's something that one of them said not in this interview a different time where they said they have over the years survived and thrived through the brutalities of intimacy yes so good the brutal it's brutal to be seen like they see each other. And it's also so beautiful. They said it's a daring thing to have weathered

the brutalities of intimacy. It's a daring thing. It's an astonishing thing. They are daring and astonishing. I love them. Enjoy. Hello. Hello. Well, hello. Well, hello. Catherine said you would be wearing your hiking shirt are you wearing honey what did you hear what yeah i said you'd be wearing your hiking shirt was i right yep an open for a nice little sexy look i'm already so delighted i just can't handle this you two can't understand how excited we've been to talk to you you too and the reason we're absolutely friggin delighted that you are launching a new podcast and katherine we want to hear all about your play too is because I know you're going to say that this isn't right because you're always

so humble about who you are, but you are exactly what the world needs right now. You are so human. I told you this world is fucked up. That's why. Can you, can I just interrupt this for a second? How do I turn off the ding every time I can't remember? I mean, nobody gets that I don't get notifications. So don't text me if it's urgent or timely. Use the phone, the old-fashioned vocal apparatus, you know? The old-fashioned vocal apparatus. That is what a phone is. Tell them what you call these things in your ears, honey. Tell them what, what, what? Tell them what you call the things that are in your ears. I, you know, I didn't know that I was going to share my hearing accessories, pink gold.

Pink gold, I waited six weeks to get the pink gold ones and they were prettier than the figure and white ones. You changed the name of them. To hearing accessories. Yeah, hearing accoutrements was the first one. Acutraments. It's an upgrade when you put it like that.

Yes. Well, as I say in my show, instead of a humiliation. Are you doing a show, huh? What show are you doing? What show are you doing, hon? I don't know. It's just this little thing in Malvern, Pennsylvania.

20 minutes from Philly, you know, near the Barnes collection. Oh, I didn't know that. What's it called? It's called the unexpected third, a radical rollicking rumination on the optimism of staying alive. Wow. Who's in it? Me. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

tell us a little bit about it it is a glennon it's been a long time coming i think i've been pissed off about how this culture deals with age certainly since 50 and that was quite a while ago you know and um i just couldn't stand the way people were disappeared or assumed about you know there was a point where before my hair became this color which I do thank my husband, Mandy Patinkin, for encouraging me to do because I was on my way to my nice vegetable hair dye person once, probably 15 years ago, and he was following me saying, you haven't seen it in the sun. You think it looks natural. You would hate it. And I'm saying, don't follow me. I'm not old enough to have a white hair. Well, now I am. And I actually,

that's the one thing I like better, aesthetically speaking, is the color of this hair. So I've been pissed off about this topic for a long time. And, huh? Aging, yes, honey, aging. And you know, all the things I do turn out to be things that I think people in the culture at large are experiencing, but nobody's really talking about it. Like mom's life came from, you know how you always see if a guy has a snuggly, you know, and he's wearing, it's a front page of New York Times magazine. But women, we're just like, oh, yeah, that's what they do, do you know? And it pissed me off, so I wrote a mom's life, you know. And then this show is just my, it's not a Hallmark card.

This is some challenging period. And I thought I was going to be really exceptional and do it differently. and it was all just about your attitude and how you care for yourself, but shit happens. You know, that it's not quite in your control, and it is stunning. And then you start losing people more often than you are used to. And it is just a sort of rumination on how you keep going

and surprise yourself and don't stop. And that whole idea of being finished, I hate, hate the term seniors. It's like, I've been there done that. I don't mind elder. It has some dignity. It has some gravitas. So that's part of my thing.

My favorite thing, you know, I, I love, you know, look, let's just face it, we're here to bang the drums. So people go see this thing at the People's Light Playhouse in Malvern, Pennsylvania. Preview starts September 17th till October 26. Get your fucking ass down there. Maybe 26, yeah. Well, the extension, honey, right now I'm supposed to go chill. October 26th is the extension, right? Well, we're hoping it's an extension.

Yes, it will. It will. It will. Don't think that way it will. But also we're supposed to be. Here's a big thing. Tell them, Catherine, what when people came to see it in Rosendale, an early workshop, and people came to see it in other workshops, in fluorescent lit rooms, you know, where there was no set or anything. Tell them what young people had to say, because that knocked me out. Well, no, you know, this was really moving to me. I knew people of a certain age would respond to this, you know, over 50. But what blew my mind. I'll never forget, I've done, I've been working on this thing for three years, 10 workshops. I mean, really, it's like, awing your way. But this young woman named Raya came up in Rosendale, New York,

upstate New York, and she was crying and she said, Catherine, I'm 30 years old. My generation tells me, unless I have my place, my person, my profession, and my Botox account, by 35 my life is over and your play says that's bullshit and i was so moved and you know i i don't i don't have a litmus test of how you age i'm just saying it's not a shameful thing it's not an inhuman thing i don't want to stop the process i don't want to think of it as a disease you know look obviously i'm prejudiced this she's written many pieces she's performed them i fell in love with her because she's an actress that is is just so truthful. But I promise you, if you drag your butt down there, I promise you,

why 47 years or not, you will not be disappointed. It is beautiful. Becky, be quiet. Becky. We love Becky. Oh, I'm glad you do, Amanda. I do too. I'm glad you love Becky. I love Becky. I love Becky. I love Becky. Come here, Betty. come where's a Becky baby this idea because that doesn't surprise me because they love you

oh Becky baby you're so young girl baby this is the nicest thing I've done for my husband other than our two sons let him have a dog I'm not a dog person guys but I feel like not dog people are just people who

haven't had dogs yet right yeah I think you're actually right Amanda, because we got two black labs at the same time when our 42-year-old was 12. And he needed a dog. My husband needed a dog. I said, okay, to make everybody happy. And I started, you know, I remember this one time. It was late at night.

Of course, I started and ended my day in New York City with little bags of dog poop. And I was so pissed off. And I was just like, this is not what I imagined, you know. And then it was very late at night it was raining and a cab stopped at the corner and I heard some young guy say, sir, please make sure this man gets home okay. And I looked up at the corner and it was our older son, Isaac, helping an elderly person into a cab and saying, I hope, make sure he gets home safe. And I remember thinking, okay, that's what I've been doing. That's not a dog group. That's what I've been doing.

I've been raising decent, decent human men, you know. Oh, you know, you two, it's so funny because we wanted to focus this talk about how to, throughout life, even when things get tough, sustain and maintain a loving, beautiful marriage relationship. And how when things get tough to maintain your relationship with the relationship. your children, as parents, and then also with the world. Yeah. To your, you're all's commitment to your Judaism and healing the world has been so inspiring. And I feel like in the first 10 minutes of this, we didn't ask any questions, but you

already showed us how that happens, your support for each other, the play, Mandy, the way that you just focused on Catherine's. And then Catherine, you just were like, I don't like dogs, but I let them have a dog. Yeah. And then the kid thing? And can I give a real helpful thing to folks that are listening of all ages? You know, it's interesting this thing about getting older. I find it fascinating.

And I talk to some of my getting older friends. And I say, you know, there's no preparation for this. First of all, I believe that you should be, when you're 120, you should feel the same way you do when you're 19, 20, 21, 31, 41, 51, 51, so you're all the way down the road. That's how you should feel. That's how all of us do feel. Every now and then, though, some other parts of our body don't seem to agree with that particular sentiment, but, you know, to hell with them, we're moving on and we're getting new parts or we're finding ways around it. But there is a little thing.

I woke up in the middle of the night for my, I don't know, third, fourth pee, and then I had these terrible leg cramps, which I started getting as I started getting older. And I thought, this is horrible. and I spoke to a nutritionist one day, and I'm telling you this, I'm selling this product. You've got to get this product. It's a magnesium supplement. I went down, boiled some hot water, put a teaspoon of it in hot water, and I put it in the hot cup. Then you put cold water, so it's not too hot, and I drank it.

And I forgot, I started forgetting to take it. It is a miracle drink. Get it, they sell it at all kinds of places, everywhere you'd go. it's called calm and uh and you know young people you don't have that many cramps but you should practice for when you get over that's really i feel like a very concrete helpful thing i thought you were going to give some advice this is better i mean it's just buy this shit works for me and i don't know i actually don't know if it calms you but it certainly calms the leg cramps makes them go away. And I, you know, and then therefore, you know, you sleep better. And it's

great. And if you take a Catherine often, she's away doing the place. So she often brings me the cup before I fall asleep. And so, you know, I'm not there to get my glass of water or my cup of coffee. You know, that's how goes. He goes to bed at 8 o'clock and I go to bed at 1 in the morning. Eight o'clock is late for me, honey. Eighth, that's true. 7.30 is right. I'm not I'm going past seven when I'm working away from home. So, Catherine, what do you do between 8 o'clock and 1 a.m.? This is a similar vibe to my parents. So I'm just wondering what my dad goes to bed at like 7,

and then my mom goes to bed much later. What do you do during those hours? I talk to friends that live on the West Coast, or I try and get people in South Africa or in England, or I go through my piles of newspapers and try to call them, so my husband won't throw away what I want to keep. I keep explaining to him that newspaper and things, like if you make collages or stuff, it's not going to be here.

They're going to digitalize everything, or they digitalize us, so I need to keep it. I go through those piles. In your personal space. Yes. Otherwise, it's a recyclable item. Yeah. Right.

Right. things that he won't throw away. I still remember I had kept there was a wonderful columnist named John Leonard for the New York Times that I adored in my 30s. I even ended up going to a public

celebration of him and I didn't know him at all. I just loved his work and I kept all his columns for like 10 years in this striped bag in a shared closet and my husband threw those out. I don't think that's true, Catherine.

Honey, that is true. You threw out my John Leonard Combs. I've forgiven you. No, no, no, no. Honey, I think you are making things up. I think you're getting things mixed up. I didn't, I don't go in your closet and throw bags of stuff out. It wasn't in my closet. I didn't even have a closet that. It was in our bedroom. And you threw it out from a corner. Well, maybe it had been there for three or four or 15 years. Three or four or 15 years. Maybe it was a home for spiders and all kinds of creatures. Yeah. Well, see, here's an example. But we let it. go. That is how we solve a lot of things. But clearly, honey, you haven't completely succeeded with that. You just brought it up on a national podcast. What did I do? You just...

I'm not going to let it go. I'm sort of mad about it. Thank you. That I just threw out something very precious to you. No, but you just said that it was collecting dust and it was in a chair. Catherine, you just said you let it go. You didn't let it go. I mean, that's true.

There you go. I have a question because I'm wondering if you just... I'm wondering if this, because I know the newspaper issue, yeah, we'll just call it an issue. I don't know if it's a problem, it's just an issue, is a recurring, it rises and we deal with it on an ongoing basis. Yeah. And from my understanding, another issue is, used to be at least this, like,

the anxiety over the passage of time. And I'm wondering as you talk about like your play and getting and even the need to hold on to the newspapers because they're going to be digitized. Like, is a lot of this about that? Well, as you can see in the background of my husband, we have all our vinyl collection, right? Which I love. And we never play one of those records. Every now and then Joan Byers comes on.

Every now and then. I mean, our house is like, could be a museum of the 80s. You know, we have our CD players, which we don't use. We have our cassettes, which nothing can get played on. We have our DVDs that I keep meaning to transfer. You know, it's just artifacts, including us. But, you know, it's a really, it's a really, I find it very challenging. to honor what is valuable to me.

I'm very sentimental, so I don't throw out anything. And I, that is part of... Case in point. You bet you're asking me. You aren't kidding. She's missing a chip, and she didn't know to get rid of me. I would never, ever, ever get rid of him. You know, it's always been so strange to me.

You know, we only understand 5% of the universe. this is a true thing, right? So I'm always curious about what that 95% is that we don't know anything about. And I'll never forget. I was home from college in San Francisco, visiting home. I had two younger brothers watching TV.

And I just passed them, you know, and came back because there was this commercial on. I don't usually watch commercials now or them, but I was just struck. And there was some young guy pretending to be a, like, 70s greaser, you know, at a soda shop. And I came and I said, who's that kid? He's really good.

And that kid turned out to be my future husband, Mandy, particularly. Oh, my gosh. And, and. You can YouTube it. It's Teen Angel from the Seven Up commercials in 1969 or 70 or 68, something like that. And I knew one thing. I knew a few things. I was going to be in the theater.

I was going to be a mom. He's never going to go out with an actor, because one in the family is enough. And I wasn't totally wrong about that. But I was with my... Yes, you were wrong. One in the family is not enough. Okay. I was at Mandy's first professional show in New York, Trilani of the Wells.

I was with my boyfriend of two years, who was this great political guy named Michael Yule. started Safe Return, Amnesty for Vets in Canada. He discovered he outed Agent Orange. She moved whistle on Agent Orange. Yeah, he did. Wow. I'm thinking I see who she's with before me.

What on earth does she see in me? He made me laugh. But I was sitting with Michael and Mandy comes out in this show. And I say out loud, now he's my type. What am I doing with you? I don't usually say something like that. like that, Glenn, and I might think it. I said it, which was so odd because, you know, young exor, not me.

Nope, nope, nope, nope, no, but here we are, 47, 47. But we're friends with Michael Ewell. And I think most of her exes were at our wedding. Oh, my gosh. How did, what happened next? So you were like, that, that's my vibe, not you. And then how, what happened next? How did you guys make contact?

What was the first dates like? We have the rule. If you want to tell it, you tell it. We don't tell the same story twice. Because he has his version and I have mine. And mine's always wrong as far as she's concerned. Okay. I, you know, I thought I was hot stuff.

I'd hit New York running and I'd done several plays and I was going to go to Europe. And this playwright Michael Weller, whose shows I had done, was doing a two-week workshop at Ensemble Studio Theater and asked me to do it. And I said, no, no, no, I've worked so much, you know. I have to go see the real world.

Some shit like that. I don't know if I can say that. Anyway, and then he said, it's only for two weeks. I really want you to do it. And I said, well, who's in it? And he said, Chip Sion, Elaine Bromka, Mandy Patinkett. Oh, that kid. The greaser.

Danny Stern? Danny Stern, yeah. And I agreed to do it. And I remember Michael coming out after one of the first rehearsal, saying, so what do you think? I said, oh, he's great. I love working with him. Oh, you mean for me personally? I said, no way, Michael. He's a baby. He's an actor. He's all crazy. No, no. The next person I'm with is going to be the father of my children, and he's not in it. He's not it. So that shows you how wrong. So we're hoping soon we will meet the father of her children.

Wow. We're all very excited to bring this person into our family. fold. So far, it hasn't knocked down the door, but it could happen any day and we're all very open to it. Well, I'm jealous of that person already. They get to join your family eventually. What a Gideon, Isaac. They did a great job. Careful, careful what you wish for. You know, we are highly edited, as Gideon will say. You know, highly edited for all those people that during the pandemic wanted us to adopt them. It was like, well, this is one vision of us. You know, we are just like other families that drive each other crazy. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard Things for free.

Today's segment is brought to you by Bumble, the app committed to bringing people closer to love. We live in a culture that treats love like a finish line. You win if you get the relationship, the ring, the picture perfect story. Now listen, you know I love. of winning. And I will make racing from the car into the grocery store into a game just so that I can win it. But the truth is, love isn't a race or a prize. It's a practice. It's something you choose and keep choosing. The way I love you, Glennon, is by seeing who she is, what she does, and respecting the hell out of that so much that I want to contribute as much as possible in our shared life. So she does the laundry in our house. Thank you. And I make sure to take

off my socks before I toss them into the laundry and turn them inside out so that she doesn't, isn't that the worst part of laundry having to turn things right side out? And I love her in the million tiny invisible ways choosing to give her more life back, really. That's why I support Bumble's message to its members. It's not about one big moment. It's about the ongoing practice, setting intentions, being honest about what you want, and creating space for connection that feels real. Listen, you can win a race, but if you're running in the wrong direction, is it really a win? Bumble makes sure you are running in the right direction, supporting you with the tips in the right

moment and a dedicated expert-backed advice hub. So it's just designed to get you through every stage of your dating journey. Because love isn't a finish line, folks. It's a daily act of showing up for yourself and for someone else. Besides the holding on to things and letting go of things, which seems to be perhaps a thing for you all, what would you say we have been taught by many therapists that every couple really only has three or four arguments that get repeated adonis? them if you're lucky for 50 years like you. What are your repetitive issues?

Arguments or conflict. You're much more prolific than three or four, don't you? Okay. They're the creative type, so you know. But a lot of the fights, they revolve. Yeah, and they usually, the root of the fight is a very similar thing, right? So it might be about moving the couch

or it might be about whatever, but, like, really, it's about hearing each other, control, power, whatever it is. Yeah. You go first. Oh, yeah, you go first, honey, maybe. What? What? I was going to say, you go first. It's interesting, I'm trying to think.

Well, I think one of the issues we always deal with, I will tell you, is my excessive speaking, you know, is that I'm. I'm very afraid of quiet. Abby. She's raising her hand, yes. I gave my husband a birthday gift several years ago, and at the end of the day, I asked if he had noticed what it was. And he said, yes, he loved it, because I basically was a mute for most of the day.

It's literally Glennon's biggest dream. My dream. It's her biggest dream. Okay. I've just given you the. The gift of... It's really helpful. You know, and I survived it, Abby.

I mean, you know, I had like, I like to share. I sort of like to turn my mind inside out. And it's not necessarily consecutive connections. It's just, oh, did you read this article? And, oh, I heard this. And, oh, do you know where we're supposed to go now? Or do you know who drove me nuts? And it's just sort of a rambling stream of consciousness thing that I,

enjoy sometimes to a greater degree than being sensitive to my companion's desires of maybe wanting to say something or just being confident in the quiet, which he's much better at than me. And how do you experience this, Mandy? Well, I'm thinking about my beautiful cousin, who we love, my Israeli cousin, A.L. Zucker, who was very, you know, worked hard, had different kinds of jobs. Then he went back to school to become a landscape architect.

And I said to Yale toward the end of his studies, I said, what's the most interesting thing you learned in this course, you know, to learn this skill? He said, negative space, what you leave empty. And I love quiet. I have so much noise in my head all the time, not literal noise, noise that Mandy makes silently in its head that's explosive and I just I wish for peace in my brain I wish for quiet there's a woman who I don't remember her name she's a doctor a wonderful

book called Quiet Susan Susan Susan Kate is my favorite book and talked about people who are introverts. So you wouldn't think that, you know, people who are in show business or public lives, you know, would be introverts. Yet I am. And the people that she points out are. And in the 30s and 40s and 20s, all the Ivy League schools, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, they had courses to be outgoing, to be extroverted, et cetera, that it was a bad thing if you didn't know this. And you would fail. in the course of life and uh and you couldn't you can't get over the people that she talks about that were introverts and what they accomplished and and so i i just i just wish for those who are

quiet who those who are shy for those who have trouble entering a conversation that is one of your great gifts don't doubt yourself i will say this and it's not a criticism of my beloved it is It is a concern that I'm sure she's not the only one that deals with this. She's always been a much more social person than I was. She would have breakfast with somebody, then lunch with somebody, then a tea in the afternoon, go see a matinee, go see a play in the evening, very active life. All the kids stuff all the time. I could not keep up with her.

You know, no one can keep up with her. She's the ever-ready bunny of humanity. And I have noticed in the past, I don't know, eight to 10 years, but certainly the last five to seven, without a doubt, since the pandemic, no question. A kind of hysteria about time. And I feel for her because I feel she's so afraid, afraid of losing anything and anyone and afraid of the clock and the sand finishing in the

hourglass, that she tries to pack in everything, every podcast, every newspaper article, every book, everything that everyone says. I remember one time I said to her, you know, I held up the New York Times. I said, look at this. Isn't this an interesting thing? I said, you know, it doesn't talk it doesn't talk it's just a paper and and i don't need someone to read it out loud to me every word and i i wish if i had one wish for my my beloved it would be that she would not feel that the clock is moving that fast honey you may be one of those people like auntie ida used to say you should live to be a hundred and swanzig a hundred and twenty like uh what was abraham's wife's Sarah, you know, because she was like 120 when she had Isaac, I believe,

and that you have plenty of time and that you don't have to feel that, you know, you've got to pack it in. And there's one other thing that I'd like to mention, because she won't listen to me unless I'm on where you can't edit me. So you can't edit me. So this is This is, this, I long for this. I like to put it in chocolate. You got a couple of hours, guys. No, no, the other thing is, if you're sitting around with folks and, and there's a, there's a pause, she can't handle it quiet. And so she has to fill it, as opposed to I would say to her, and she's getting a little better at this.

She is trying, she is improving, but I need her to work harder at it. Because there isn't that much time. Thanks a lot, guys. Because the sands are going through the hour glist, and I wanted to enjoy it. And that it's so interesting, I think it's interesting, that if you're sitting around a table with a bunch of people, and you're the one talking, and then it gets quiet, why don't you just wait? And the person that hasn't said anything, maybe they'll talk, and maybe they won't. And maybe it'll be quiet until everyone leaves for some strange reason. Or maybe not.

But you don't have to keep the talk going. What do you think about that, Catherine? Thank you. I'm so grateful to the three of you for this opportunity to hear that. I think he's really right. And I have really been working hard. First of all, the slightly off thing is I love people. I love friggin' people.

They are my passion, my interest, my curiosity. I love all kinds of different people. And the pandemic was extremely difficult because it was the two of us and the trees, you know. And I don't even think we've begun to realize how that period has still impacted us and is in terms of how we deal with each other or if we're only comfortable on this space

and not tactily, you know, involved. But I really do know that that is an anxiety of mine. If there's a big quiet and I perceive someone to be uncomfortable, I try to be uncomfortable, you know, without realizing I'm the one that's uncomfortable. So I think that is something I'm really working on. I really make sure I leave space for other people. my younger son's partner

when he first met her she didn't say much when we were around and I was worried it was because of my excessive talking and I asked her about it. She said no, no no I don't feel that and then explained what it was. So I am aware of it but what I would say to

my husband who is much better with quiet I also want to say there's nothing pejorate. I find when parents apologize for their kids saying oh they're shot. Like there's something wrong with that, you know, or it's a quiet kid. That, in the 20s, that Dale Carnegie book, we were a country of people with character,

and he sold everybody on being a country of persa-fuckingality. So suddenly, everybody was being taught to perform some version of their selves that could get them somewhere else. Yeah. I think that's how we do. Yes, that's right, Tony. That's right. Well, you read the book. You read the book?

I didn't read the book. Me neither. Made so many friends and influenced so many people. But I want to just say that my husband is totally right about quiet. I'm really working on it. I'll probably work on it until I stop being in this body, you know, but I am working on it. However, what I would like him to work on and acknowledge is, though he is great, enjoyed just his thank you honey take those notes he forgets that he also

sometimes enjoys being with people and there have been many occasions where I've said I'd like to have dinner with son so you can go I don't want to and I will say you know they're really nice they're very nice or they're not in show business or they're you know whatever and I have to really push him and then he's amazed that he had a really good time for a really nice time. So, I mean, this is a deal we can make on public with, you know, I'll do that for you, huh? Okay.

I mean, so we, you know, he can expand his ability to be a little more interactive with fellow humans, and I can work on not taking up so much space. I'll do one person a year. Perfect. You guys, this is so helpful to me. because we yes we have the exact same exact exact same issue and we are always talking about how to work on it but i will tell you that you know i'm always saying can we just be quiet can we just have a space

because i'm always worried that a person who takes a little more time to speak needs some space right to speak and and when you have kids you think about that a lot like you don't want the the quietest person at the table to never get a minute to to speak. But I will tell you that recently my mom was visiting and Abby was out of town and we were in a room together and she was just staring at me and I was like, shit, where's Abby? Like, oh, this is the service she provides me. Like, she talks. No, I have to do. It's a, it's a, it is also a labor of love that when she's not there, I notice what a service it is to keep the conversation going.

I totally agree with you. Yeah. I know it's a, it's a blessing and a curse at the same time. Yes. Yeah. But it really is a blessing. You get to listen. You get to rest.

And, you know, Sondheim wrote this great lyric, careful the things you say, children will listen. Careful the things you do, children will see and learn. Children may not obey, but children will listen. Children will look to you for which way to turn. to learn what to be careful before you say, listen to me. And I really, we are all children till it's over. Yes. And now it's time for our ads.

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Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. Not only will you receive percent off your first purchase, but enjoy free shipping on any U.S. orders over $75 and free returns. Go to viori.com slash hard things and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. I really mean this, honey, and is that you get to listen. And it comes out. When I do interviews for whatever it is, I have to, you know, be selling. Almost every word out of my mouth is something that came out of Catherine's mouth that she taught me or out of my children's mouths.

And almost everything. I would say I'm the most unoriginal human being I've ever. I beg to disagree, but I want to say two things, because now I get to say something. I feel that the gift that Mandy gives, when he is singing a song, acting a song, he has this new concert called Jukebox, which he's on two or four soon, and it just is an affirmation of the gift of being an alive human. at any age, so he is doing that same thing, being up there, being this force, do you know? And I think that the work you guys do on your podcast and the work we're hoping to do on don't listen to us is, you know, there's this expression, but Isaac came home when he was working in Ecuador, it's better in Spanish, which I can't do, but it's, there's nothing so bad,

good can't come from it. And in some ways, the horror of the isolation, And with all the horrors of this technology, which are so many and the struggle to be in charge of it and not have it be in charge of us. But you came up with this way of communicating and connecting with people. And that's what we're trying to do with, don't listen to us, is create a kind of community, a kind of messy embrace of the messy human, you know, authentic non-AI community. of people that are struggling to make sense of the world in a time where it seems to make utterly no sense when it's frightening, to ground each other, even if it's in this little rectangular thing, talk, have connections with each other across, you know, all ages and ideas and, you know.

Do you only meet people in this forum, or do you also meet people in the room sitting next to you? Well, this is interesting that you ask. We just decided that we were going to meet people in the room, and then I freaked out and changed it and went back to this. So there is some, I am a writer, and so one of the things I'm most comfortable with is my idea is getting to people without my body being involved. Also, Mandy, I have heard you say that, or Catherine, maybe you said it about Mandy, that you deeply love humanity, but, only a few specific human beings. I love humanity so deeply.

I have always said, I will likely die for you, but I will not meet you for coffee. And I don't know what that's about, but I like the most comfortable right now. And also, you guys, for me, there's a, like, I want to keep real life a little bit separate than work life. And for my body and spirit, I have to maintain. It's like capitalism is everywhere. So now if I'm sitting on a couch with my friend and having a comment, and it's filmed, I'm like, where's the line here?

Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm thinking while you're saying all this, it also does eliminate the favorite thing of mine, which is the back door, the escape. And if you're sitting in the room and I go, well, we have to stop now. It's, you know, what, did I say something wrong? Did I end? Did I help you?

Was I not interesting? and there's an uncomfortable moment and no the answer is often like no i got another appointment it's only for x amount of minutes and and that's it but when you're in the little boxes and the scene it's it's already more less personal less not personal is the word it's just it's less of that it's less i'm trying to say it's it's safer it's safer i think in my life i want more and more real. That's why I love you guys so much. I want more and more real. I want more embodiment. I want, but non-monetized, non-content, like. Current culture, Clinton, you know, hey, let's hear it for Mondami. That's just my point of view. And I so

wish somebody would be able to say, I wish he would, I think I just tried to write in some form he probably won't get you know franklin delano roosevelt came up with social friggin security right what did i just do i just did something and everybody got oh i have there okay i just did something on the machine you're perfect franklin delano roosevelt came up with social security what american doesn't want that and what did the forces of the right say oh you're a socialist that big boogie word. Anybody doesn't want their social security? Let's take that that word means many different things and it's practiced many different ways and basically we need to be more generous in sharing our resources. Do you know? Yes. I don't think that should be a problem in the fact that business

interests are all up in arms should just hopefully get him another 10,000 decent, all kinds of people saying, hey, we can do this together. We can be better humans. We can make our cities better in a humane way, not in an insane. Authoritarian way, don't get me going, guys. You can just edit this if you need someone. Are you kidding?

This is exactly what we want to talk about with you all. Let me try to keep your hands off the computer. I know. It looks like you're having an earthquake. He's banging the table. I love it. She's having an internal earthquake and we're here for it. My director, Timothy Neer, who was my idol and college,

and she was a couple years ahead of me, and she's directed all three of these solo shows I've done and we're still working. Ten years ago, we were working on a piece called Falling Apart Together, and she looked at me, she said, Kath, do you realize we're almost 70, and we're still working like dogs for no money? And now she's 80 and doing the same thing.

And I'm almost there. But I was talking to her one day, and she said, God, Kath, watch your hands. You almost poked my eye out. And I said, ooh, getting touchy in our old age, aren't we? And then a couple days later, I called her up and I said, Tim, I apologize. I was talking and I almost poked my own eye out. That's a good idea, honey.

If you had me sit on my hands at a dinner table, I probably wouldn't be able to speak. Thank you. I'll write that one down. Okay. Catherine, can you put into any words what this feeling is about holding on and time passing? So we were having a conversation recently where I was had this week where I was obsessed with getting all of the children's names and things tattooed on my body and like mostages from my parents tattooed on my, and we're like, where is this coming from?

And it was like, you know, the Virginia Woolf thing of just life stand still, life stand still. like how do I make this in this impermanent thing somehow permanent for myself and I feel that so much from you is can you just so many of us feel it how does it feel i quote quote the line part don't not quote the line that you wrote for a mom's life the first thing you wrote this is so amazing guys he just i love you ask the telepathy i i was thinking of several things one is in that first plan mom's life, I say to my baby at one point, don't grow, don't change, don't lose your baby teeth, just stay as you are perfect and small and all stay this way too and neither of us will grow or change because the way this is is perfect. But living things do grow. We are not

bonsai plants, do you know? And I think my brother was a Buddhist monk and one of the things that think is very true. All suffering comes from us grasping, holding on to that, which is impermanent. And you can tattoo all your babies. I can keep all their little things they made when they were five, which they're just horrified by, but the truth is we're all impermanent. And we are future dust. And I think the way we can hang on to the love the most is by being in the moment and not being so afraid of what's over and not being afraid of what's going to happen, but be here now as fully as you can, you know, and live and breathe in this moment until it takes you to the next one. And that's how we're fully, fully alive, you know?

Real Key, Rilke says his poem, hold beauty and terror in one hand. let everything happen to do. No feeling is final. So that's, you know, it's really hard to do, guys. I keep every freaking piece of shit. I picture my kids when I'm gone. Oh, my God, they're going to have the worst fight of their lives because my older son is much better at letting go.

He's just going to toss, share, let it go. Gideon's going to want to go through every drawer and find every secret. find everything, it'll just ruin them. So I have to do this before I'm gone, so that doesn't come true, you know. Oh, God. I also just want to hear when she, when she says these things, it triggers in me. I loved Warren Beatty's movie, Heaven Can Wait, whenever he'd, you know, go to the next person that he'd embody, he'd fall into this well. So I said to Catherine, I want a wishing well. And she found one in that.

the village from France, you know, the cement thing and the top and everything, and she bought it, and she had it shipped to our home. And it's a flower bed and everything, but it's beautiful. And I always told the boys when they were little, because I would, I'd take walks everywhere all the time every day, and I would stop where there's water on a bridge. And I say my prayers and my meditation, my wishes for the world and all people who are vulnerable and need extra, extra, service from all of us. And I watch the water and I say the prayer and I watch the water take them out. And I've always said to the boys, look, if I'm ever not here for any reason, just go to the wishing well or go to the water and I'll be there. I really mean it because my, you know, that

that higher power in my view, and I was brought up as a conservative Jew in Chicago, blah, blah, blah, is Einstein's theory of relativity, that energy never dies. So if you want to connect with any entity that was made up of protons and neurons and energy, it may not look like the four or five, how many of us two, four or five, five of us are, but we're there in some way. Sound, my sound man taught me, he said, sound never dies like light. Light is millions of years away, and then it hits our eyes. sound is the same. So when they put out those things in that Jody Foster movie and listen in for sound, sound is the same. It travels. And so listen, take a walk. Most of all, try to listen and see if you can hear your own thoughts. That's the tough one. But it never dies. I believe it. I need to believe it. I say every person's name, every day in my prayers, on my walks,

in my meditation before I walk in front of an audience or a camera or a microphone. Because Oscar Hammerstein, and I've said this everywhere I go, and it's one of the best things I think I can offer anybody. He wrote in Carousel of All Things a musical, this line, as long as there's one person on earth who remembers you, it isn't over. So I say their names, people who are acquaintances or, you know, just people I connected to, some seriously, some just, you know, casual. But I bring them there, and I put them right here, so that when my moment comes wherever I'm going, I won't be alone, and I don't want to be alone when I'm on stage or in front of a camera or talking to my kid about something important. And I believe, I deeply believe, I'm not a woo-woo person, but somebody would say, well, you ought to check yourself out again because you sound pretty woo-woo.

I don't give a fuck what I sound like. I'm telling you, this is my comfort. And why should embracing or being open to possibilities that haven't been proven materially? Why should that be dismissed as woo-woo? You know, it's just like why should sharing resources be dismissed as a... You know, that, I mean, you know, that whole mythology of the individual is the greatest thing. Say it again. What is it? What's the mythology?

Say it again? The mythology of individuals being the most important thing here, as opposed to us working together. And that's what these podcasts do. And that's what, don't listen to us, honey. We have to mention it a couple times because that's why we got invited to have this wonderful conversation. Please, please, please, stop it. You know, Shakespeare in Hamlet, there are more things on heaven and earth. Hamlet says it to, who did George Herman.

Horamination. Hamlet says to Horacea. There are more things in heaven and earth. Horatio than I dreamt of in your philosophy. Therefore, as a stranger, give it welcome. And now it's time for our ads. Zell is all about those moments that matter most. From sending a little something for your long-distance besties birthday to saving the day

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Go ahead. Well, you know, Mandy, as he said, was raised as a conservative Jew, and his mom was so happy, he found a Jewish girl, but she didn't know I was a Southern California Jewish girl. Ah. Which meant you celebrated Rush Ashana, Passover, Hanukkah, and Practical. and practice social justice. And that was a very different notion than what Mandy grew up with.

And my dad was a son of Russian Jewish immigrants. He landed on Normandy on D-Day. Wow. He deeply, deeply believed in a democracy being about civic responsibility and participation. He had a 30-year correspondence with Senator Alan Cranston. Cranston and my dad had no money.

That was the really important thing. Letters, two page, single type about policy, no money. I recently found and all my stuff a little thing. A thank you note from Eugene McCarthy for my dad giving him 100 bucks. That was a long time ago, a lot of money for my dad. So my, it's tequino lum. That means feel the world, okay? And it means one person at a time, you know,

the old starfish story with the kid cleaning up, throwing all the starfish and the dad saying, you can't possibly save all these starfish. What does it matter? Well, it matters to this one. You do what you can. You practice kindness. You stand up.

This is what I was raised with as a kid. My dad was in that army for five years. Was in Germany, was in places. You stand up for injustice wherever you. You see it, you practice common humanity. And it is excruciating to have to say that the word anti-Semitism is being bandied about. It's a serious thing. I do not want anyone to practice othering anybody because of their religion or their beliefs or the way they look or what they practice.

But don't use that as an excuse to commit heinous wars against human beings. vanity. And it's excruciating. It's like watching country commit suicide and go crazy. And the entire world is wondering what has happened. Every time I hold a grandchild, I imagine being a mother in Gaza or Ukraine, you know, or a Uyghur in China. I mean, you know, it is very easy to say I can't deal with any of it, so I'm just going to upset myself. all need to have moments of the day where you focus on the joy and beauty and acts of resistance, but examine our own lives, examine if we're doing enough, examine if we're using our voices, who we know in our neighborhoods, expand our social interaction with the people

that maybe are not in our circles, that live in our communities, and just keep demonstrating, and keep shouting. I mean, I was lucky enough to be in a generation. We stopped an unjust war. We did civil rights. We had the first Earth Day. We redefined what sex and marriage and family could be. Let's keep doing it.

Yes. Even though it is very, very profoundly sad and awful, but our species adapts sometimes too well maybe. There's flowers growing in the burnt parts of L.A. Right? So I don't know what else to say I'm talking to myself because I often just wake up weeping and then I'll talk to man and he'll say, did you read the paper today or, you know, or I'll tell him some horrible news and he'll say, please don't start my day with that. Yeah, that sounds familiar. Yes.

You need to start with, okay, we're alive, we're well. What can we do today to love each other, to love our circle and to see what we can make better, just a little bit? Beautiful. There's flowers growing in the burnt part of L.A. should be the name of a poem. It's really beautiful. I mean, I was very touched to read about that. All the other people are seeing these. And species of things they didn't even know were there originally.

So we just have to not be afraid to speak up. And I just want to say, Mandy and Catherine, you both have spoken up and everybody's seen that the viral clip that went though that that happened a couple weeks ago um glennon her favorite movie of all time is the princess bride and so just me just just a weird yes she's an oddity of hers yeah and we just want to say that you you saying what you said was really important and profound and um and we are just so grateful to you for speaking up on behalf of all humanity and the people in Gaza and Palestine. Yeah.

You know. I just wish for the horror and the killing to stop. I can't bear it. I can't bear it on both sides. You can make lists of the atrocities that have taken place over time. You know, from October 7th, every Jew needs me to say that 1,200 people were killed on October 7th, 250 hostages were taken. Yes, that's not good. Yes, you need to return the hostages at how many Palestinians have been killed over time, in what situations, in what circumstance. The bottom line is people on either side who are running these two entities, these countries, these caretakers of the humanity of these countries, are not interested in creating.

a peaceful solution. They will not stop hating each other. They only want to annihilate each other. Both of them do. And when they say they don't have a partner in peace, they are covering up the fact that they don't have themselves as a partner in peace either. And until you're willing to sit down and create a possibility, Sunday in the park ended with my favorite words, so many possibilities. Until you're willing to create the possibility of people of unlike minds, religions, customs, history, ownership of land that no one can own, until you're willing to address that in a humanitarian manner, to right the wrongs, just take it from not the wealth of history, the wealth of history,

that you cannot correct but from this moment forward make it the best world possible for the unborn to come into you can't ask yourselves to carry on with this burden on your souls from either side and your children it's not livable and there are so many groups that have been struggling to address this from a school with 45 Arab kids and 45 Jewish kids going to school together. It's called the Oasis of Peace, Nevis Shalom. There is the bereaved parents, both who have lost people. There's breaking the silence. I bring the attention and fundraising to the Abraham. Now I forgot the orchard of Abraham, which when I was filming Homeland in Israel on two occasions, beautiful organization of an Israeli woman and a Palestinian Arab man that started

this school for preschoolers, and now it goes all the way through all the grades. You know, it's so beautiful, Palestinian and Israeli teachers, it's everything that you would wish. There are pockets where this takes place, but to annihilate the structures where people have a roof over their head, where they, not to allow food. in medicine, to come in, to take care of the innocent. You know, when you, when you turn to violence and war and revenge, you have lost. If that is your answer to a problem, you have lost. Stop, full stop right there.

Go back to the path, take a walk, find a friend and a partner, and come up with more human. humanitarian solutions. And don't tell me and scream in my ear about what was done to my people. And so everybody said, what was done to my people? What was done to my people? You know, everybody gets bad things done to them. It's the history of the world.

Why are we living here right now? Where are the Native Americans? Okay. This is why the solution really is. Let women run the world for just 200 years. we absolutely have a better ability to compromise. We do not need excessive power and control. I'm not saying we're perfect.

There certainly have been people. Thatcher wasn't, you know, but on the God, you know, really, really, we can help people come together because we're frigging genetic nurturers, is my bias. we can communicate, and that's just one of my solutions, you know. Did in a room with a group of Native Americans from any group that, whatever they're doing, you will feel the pain in their DNA. You will breathe it in. It doesn't ever go away.

You can't do this to humanity. And if you want to be somebody else, stop being. naive, Mandy. That's what life is. That's what war is. Learn a little bit about history. It's conquerors and winners, and they take the land, and they take this and they take that, and then it's theirs. At what cost? At what cost? And if you can live with that and ignore it for eternity, go right ahead. But I can't. Guys, I am so moved by my husband because I'm a 60s person. He missed the 60s.

He was doing milk commercials. I was, you know, in a state of shock. I mean, Vietnam, I took it personally because I went to college thinking we were the nicest country in the world and only did nice things, right? Right. That pissed me off very personally. When I met Mandy and we were talking about things, he said, I'm not political. political, right? I asked him if his parents were Republicans or Democrats or, you know, working families, socialists. And he said, they rode Physetians. And I said, oh, what's that? It was the

brotherhood and sisterhood of his temple. Okay. So not political. And right after that, we're on a bus. And he is like 25, and I'm an ancient 31. And he sees an older person running for the bus just as it pulls away, you know, probably 20 years younger than me, but perceived as an older person. And he said, driver, driver, there's somebody trying to get the bus. And then he pulled the cord to stop the bus. And I looked at him and I went, that's political. That is political. And, you know. I want to make a plea, may I interrupt, hon. Yes, you may. I want to make a plea to your elder listeners.

If the younger listeners are concerned about the greatest privilege that they have in a democracy, which is the privilege to use your voice, and in this climate, if you're afraid of that because you might lose your job or your sponsors or your health care, or your neighborhood standing, or your home, or anything, or your life, if you're afraid, I can understand that, and I I'm empathetic toward it. And we're seeing and hearing horrible things every minute, every day. But you elders out there, you people who know that your elders, take up the slack. Do it for those who are too frightened to speak for whatever reasons. Some of them have good reasons. You've had a long life, you elders. If you have enough to take care of the roof on your head and

and a stipend to get by till it's over, and I know some don't, but some do. And those who do are the ones I'm talking to. Use your voice. Use it twice, three times, thousands of times. For those who are not able to use their voice or too afraid, I have nothing to lose. I've been given everything more, I've been given more than I ever imagined. My wife, two children and two grandchildren, first and foremost. But if my life was over this second, I've had a glorious existence. And I want to pay it back by using my voice and asking my fellow citizens globally to please use your speech, speak your heart and your mind, wherever you go in your church, school, your local dinners, to your kids at the table, use your speech. Don't remain silent.

We need to hear you. The world is dependent on your voice. You too. Thank you for that. Thank you. We adore you. No matter what you try to tell us, we will listen to you. You can't stop us. Well, we might have to steal from this conversation for ours. Any time. Please. Oh, my God. Thank you for your love for each other, for your love for family, for your love for the planet,

for your love for humanity. It comes through in every word that you say, we're so grateful that we are here with you on this planet. at this time. Well, it's such an odd way to meet such lovely people. And maybe we could meet just this group in a small place and it wouldn't be frightening. Oh, Mandy?

He's like, that's going to take up two years' worth. There's three of them, honey. And he said, who won? Well, we didn't make that much progress. But it was a good, you know. Let's keep trying, Catherine. Okay, let's keep it out. I am.

Oh, thank you for having you guys. Thank you for being you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much, you both. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things show on TikTok.