We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Stop Avoiding Yourself: Feel The Loneliness, Jealousy & Longing

Episode Date: July 16, 2024

328. How to Stop Avoiding Yourself: Feel The Loneliness, Jealousy & Longing Glennon, Abby, and Amanda discuss how to move through loneliness, longing and jealousy. Glennon and Abby also share their experience at The Gracie Awards and recap their heartfelt speech about breast health and dense breasts dedicated to Amanda.  Discover:  -What loneliness might be trying to teach us;  -How Glennon really feels about jealousy and women supporting women;  -Why it’s so hard to remove all the obstacles we create to connection and love; and -How to let go of the picture of how it’s “supposed” to be. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome, love bugs, to We Can Do Hard Things. What's a love bug? I don't know, but I just like that word so much. You know, I call the kids love bugs. I know. I call their friends love bugs. Why? I don't know.

It's just a term of endearment. I'm not questioning you. I'm not judging you. I'm curious. They're little bugs of love. Gross. So I wanna explain why my hair looks great today. Oh.

And that is because pod squad, Abby and I went to an award ceremony last night. Mine too. I guess my hair also looks great. It does. You look great. To accept the award from the Gracies from All Women in Media for We Can Do Hard Things, winning the best podcast. Hosts. The three of us. They voted us the best. On the planet. It's pretty great. So we never go to award ceremonies because well if you've listened to the episode about the espies you'll know why we don't. It's just a lot of action that I am unable to process. You did great. You did really great. I feel like I did do great. Do you want to tell the red carpet story?

I stayed in my body. Here's why we decided to go. Because I don't understand it. Like on a general level, every time I'm at something where people are giving awards to each other, I feel a little bit embarrassed because I feel like why do we just give each other rewards all the time? If it were a bunch of doctors and nurses or teachers, but the rest of it feels highly uncomfortable to me. I feel like that moment in the Bible where it's like, you have received your reward in full by like all the attention you get. Why do we need another separate award

ceremony for us all to tell each other we're amazing? That's how I feel usually when I'm there. Uh-huh. I have a lot to say about this, but go on. I bet you do. Go on. But this time we felt like, first of all, we really respect the Gracies and all women in media. They do a really good job of really magnifying.

I think it's alliance for women in media. Okay, okay. Yeah, foundation. That's even better. That's a bad ass word. I like it. I don't know. They just seem to be paying attention to the right things. Additionally.

And by the right things, we mean us. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean the opposite of that. I mean, like they pay attention to a lot of people who are not us and I say, well done. Okay. Right.

But also felt excited to be included in that group of people who were not us. The whole thing felt good. One woman stood up Abigail Spencer who I met last night. She's an actor on Suits and some other things and she stood up to give an award and she said, you know how they say that if you're the smartest person in a room, you're in the wrong room. I just really feel certain I'm in the right room tonight. Oh, that's cute.

Yeah, that's how it felt. Like, Carol Burnett got a lifetime achievement award and she was unbelievably beautiful and wonderful and gracious and smart and Jane Fonda was there and just like these sorts of Felicia Rashad and all the things. Nicole Hannah Jones was there. That was my moment of sun. Tell them about the red carpet. Okay, so I did it. I did it. You did it.

I did it, but. We had one little snag. Was it my face? That's what you were telling me. Okay, sister. When someone's taking a picture, I can smile. I know how to do it. You're like Chandler.

I can do it like everybody else. You're like Chandler from Friends. Yes! When it's a red carpet, when there's a bunch of cameras in my face, you guys, my face starts twitching. Like my lips quivering, my eyeballs are shaking. These people must be like, should we get her medical attention? And that's what happened last night. I did have a face attack. But you know what I said? I said, Glennon, just keep twitching. This is part of your charm. That's what I said to my friend.

Twitch on, Twitch sister. Twitch on, warrior. Yeah, if anybody goes to look to find said pictures of the Gracie Awards that Glennon and I were in, please send those to us. No. Also, if you don't find any pictures, then we know why. Yes. Yeah, if you don't find any pictures, then we know why. They won't

post pictures that have compromising facial expressions. So the second reason we went is because we felt like in that this moment, we wanted to honor Amanda and her just wild diagnosis and effort to figure it all out and the way she walked through it. And then we felt like we have 90 seconds. So we can use those 90 seconds to tell all the people that they need to find out if they have dense breasts, that if they have dense breasts,

they're much higher level risk of cancer, and they probably won't find your cancer in a mammogram. So you need an MRI and an ultrasound. By the way, in preparation for that acceptance speech where I talked about boobs, I discovered that only 20% of states- 20 states. Only- oh, did I say 20% of states? No, you said 20. Oh, that's great. You just said 20% of states. 20 states. Only, oh, did I say 20% of states? No, you said 20. Oh, that's great.

You said 20 states. You just said 20% here. Okay, last night I was in bed, I was thinking 20% of states, so how many? Anyway, that's great. You said 20 states. That's a little better. Is that a correct statistic though?

I mean, who the fuck knows? I said it, okay? I said 20 states don't require. mandate I said it, okay? I said 20 states mandate that doctors even tell women they have dense breasts, okay? Which is insanity. It's like everybody on earth is obsessed with boobs until they need to be saved for a woman. Like, ugh. Okay. So we said to the people that they should find out if they have dense breasts, that they should insist upon further testing, not until their doctor says they should stop worrying, but until they actually stop worrying, until they stop, feel satisfied. That's good.

And then we said that sometimes advocating for ourselves, figuring out our shit, pushing, pushing, pushing, is hard because of our conditioning. But what I have witnessed in this situation is that Amanda's self-advocacy in saving her own life was actually the greatest act of service that she's ever done for all of the people that she knows. Because the heroism in that is like, when you save yourself, you save your children's

mother, you save your partner's partner, you save your parents' child, you save your sister's sister. So you are not only saving yourself, but you're saving the most important person in other people's lives, which saves their life. Listen, I know how to be a selfish bear. And when I think about what my life would have been like for the rest of my life, if you had not saved yourself, I feel immense gratitude for my own self. It's not just about the other person. So we just begged everyone in the room to please self advocate.

And it felt good. It was a really good moment. My favorite award ceremony because we were able to use it for something that was important. It was really beautiful. Glennon cried real tears. No, I didn't. It was beautiful. It was really beautiful. Glennon cried real tears. No, I didn't.

It was beautiful. It was really beautiful. You got emotional. It was really spectacular. And it touched me very much. I cried when I listened to your speech was really, really lovely. Thank you for doing that. And also just you've condensed a lot of information to a very short little window. It was beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. I will say that the happy news about the stat that you shared, which is that currently 39

states require some kind of notification, but it's not necessarily about that person's breasts. It's about dense breasts generally. So they could just like stamp a thing on it that's like, if you have dense breasts, this won't work, but we're not going to necessarily tell you if you do. Some states do tell you if they have it, but there is a new FDA requirement that's going into effect this year that all mammography facilities have to comply with by September 24. with by September 24, and it will be that your breasts are

either indicated as not dense or dense. So that's really good. That's good. The problem is still in my conversation where I was talking about dense breasts, I referred to the disclosure, the density disclosure being a quote unquote horseshit cover your ass situation. And I felt a little bit badly and a little bit not badly about that.

The part that made me feel badly about it is that I know that a lot of really dedicated people worked really, really hard to get those disclosures on, which the insurance companies and nobody else wanted to even have those disclosures at all. So I don't want to suggest that those weren't really valuable efforts and really awesome sacrifices to make. The part that I think is horseshit about it is that it doesn't say that what steps are necessary. Like it doesn't say it is essential that you go do X. It doesn't say, therefore you should talk to your person about this.

It just feels like the level of when you know if you have dense breasts that the mammogram will miss 50 to 60% of any cancers that are there, that disclosure that is there does not, it should say, in my opinion, if you have dense breasts, which you do, a mammogram will miss 50 to 60% of cancers. That's what it should say.

Next steps are. Like, it should just, it doesn't give the appropriate alarm to what is really an alarming situation. So that's what I meant about the horse shit, cover your ass. I have an idea for the world. Everyone will be shocked to know. The medical world?

Yes. First of all, insurance companies, wow. Like their resistance to actually helping anybody stay well and not die by blocking every test. This isn't generalization but true. And not just blocking tests but making it very very difficult to get approved to get extra testing to get that paid for to then be able to share information. The whole system is just wonker.

So I have an idea. What if we made medical insurance companies? My new rule is this. The medical insurance companies have to be the exact same companies as life insurance companies so that they are incentivized for us not to die. I need the medical insurance companies and the life insurance companies to be the exact same company. So when they are sitting down at a table and instead of their incentive being, let's push off as many people as we can,

and if they die, no problem, they're not our problem. I want the deaths to be their financial problem. That's a good idea, right? It's a very interesting idea about alignment of motivation and incentives. Really the whole world is about motivation and incentives. And so I don't think it's a bad idea. You'd also have to carve out there

that in under no circumstances can the beneficiary of a life insurance policy be a insurance company or medical provider. You know, I'm more- Just to avoid the perversion effect. I'm more of the big idea person. Like somebody else can work out the details, but what I do think is I would love it if my medical insurance company had any incentive to keep me alive. That would feel better as

opposed to the actually only incentive being to pay for as little as possible. That's just an idea world. It's an idea. Whoever's in charge. Let's kick it around for a while huh? Do you guys want to listen and hear from our pod squad? I do. I love the pod squad and I would love to hear from them. But no one's gonna have a better idea than Glenn and I. So sorry everybody you can stop listening. Yeah. The world ended and asked for my advice and I offered it anyway. So I have to already write that down on my moral inventory today.

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on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's hear from Lauren. Hi, my name is Lauren. I am in my early 30s and it seems that everyone around me, all of my close friends, work colleagues, family members are all in relationships. So I know it's been more of a thing obviously at the first whatever, but I was wondering if y'all could talk a bit about loneliness. Not just in the sense of like relationship loneliness, although that's at the forefront here, but yeah, just feeling really lonely. Even if you have people

to go to, even if you have friends, even if you have, you know, family members who love you, all of that stuff. Just feeling really lonely lately and trying to figure out how to get out of it. But we are, we are struggling. Yeah, we're lonely in here. What do you all think lonely means? Like, I think it's when someone calls about a word and then you don't really know what they are experiencing that word to be. It's an interesting thing because there are

people who are lonely because they have no one around. And then there are people who are lonely because they have a lot of people around but they feel unseen and unconnected with with those people. So I wonder what kind of loneliness this is. I guess I'll start. Okay, babe. Well, for me personally, being alone has been one of the things that I've avoided my whole life. And I think that recently, over the last, like, I don't know, year of therapy, I realized that I didn't have a good enough relationship with myself. That when I was alone, I felt very disconnected because so much of my life was about connecting with other people because I was uncomfortable with being by myself or being alone.

And honestly, ever since you started your healing journey, Glennon, we have in a really healthy way become less codependent on each other and do more things independently of each other. And that has been really interesting because I've been able to create and grow this new interesting relationship with myself. And so I totally understand what Lauren's saying.

I don't know, that kind of loneliness felt like desperation to me, that I just wanted to be around other people so that I could escape my own self. Cause I didn't really have a quality relationship with myself. And I think now I'm starting to learn, I really feel like I have true love for my own self. And so because of that deep dive, I really like being with myself now

in a different kind of way. That doesn't mean I don't experience loneliness. And as an extrovert primarily, I do get energy from being around other people. However, I do really enjoy now some solace in solitude. Wow, cool. Yeah. What do you think about loneliness, Cissy?

I think that everyone is lonely. I mean, I think when I hear Lauren say that, I'm like, yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't really have an answer and it seems like what's weird about it and what sucks about it is that maybe it's true that people who are in relationships are not lonely. Maybe. And a lot of them I'm sure are less lonely than Lauren. And it's also very possible that a lot of them are more'm sure, are less lonely than Lauren. And it's also very possible that a lot of them are more lonely than Lauren.

Because at least Lauren can say, I'm lonely because I'm not in a relationship. And those people are like, I'm in a relationship and I'm lonely. Yeah. So I'm double fucked. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

So I don't know. I think it does suck when everybody is partnered up. It seems like everybody's partnered up and you're not. For me, that's a separate question than loneliness. It's like what to do, how to navigate life, how to find people to do things with when the majority of the people in your life are partnered up feels different to me than loneliness. Cause I'm just not convinced that people who either have a lot of people around or in relationship aren't also lonely. I think it's just that achy, icky,

I'm all alone in here feeling and that you can have it. And a lot of people do have it regardless of their circumstances. Yeah, agree. Yeah, we know that in the end, what seems to determine the quality of our lives is relationships. That seems to be what every study ever done keeps telling us. But really, look again. Look again to be what every study ever done keeps telling

us. But really look again. But what if we just like use a red light? What if we just like use this sauna? And they're like, no, it's relationships. And we're like, but what if is there another Instagram account I can follow? So that seems to be the case that the quality of our connections with other human beings determines the quality of our life. And on the other hand, we are just born with this untenable situation, which is that we are all alone inside of our own skin. And that that is true from the time we are born to the time we die. And that this ache of that. I just think I get a little woo woo when I think about we can only long for something that we must have known in some sort of realm. You don't long for things that you have never, you wouldn't even know. You wouldn't have like, wait, this doesn't feel right.

What does this separation of this intense lonely feeling, which is a longing to merge, to sort of disintegrate, to dissolve into something greater, that we have this feeling that we have been taken from some, like, it's like we were an ocean. We were part of an ocean. And then when we got born, it was like somebody scooped up a cup of ocean

and put it in our bodies. So we are both individual in this little shell of a cup, but we know we are ocean. We have this longing to merge with other containers of ocean. And perhaps the longing for that is after we die, like maybe there's some sort of returning, maybe we become all ocean again and then our consciousness is dissolved into it again and that feels more like home than we ever did inside these little containers.

But if that is the case, if we are born to long to merge, and that is what this ache of loneliness is, then it seems to me that the only thing we could do to make that worse is to assume that when we long, when we are lonely, that something is wrong with us. That there's some way we could fix that. That there's something that we've done wrong that keeps us from this other magical merging connection that everyone else seems to have in the movies, on the Instagram, and the whatever. But what if longing to merge,

whatever. But what if longing to merge, which we experience as loneliness, is just the same as hunger or thirst? It's just like something we are born to long for because it points at something greater that we will eventually understand. And so when we touch that ache, we just say, there it is. There it is. There's the longing. It's not an indicia that you're doing it wrong. It's like just a reality of being alive. Yeah. It's just the hunger. And I don't know that it ever goes away. It's not like you're like, well, I'm hungry and I had dinner last week, so I'm all set.

No. I think the loneliness is there because it's the constant human drive to connect. So maybe when I'm saying people can be really lonely and their relationships, maybe it's not in some of those situations, even the fault of their relationship. Maybe it's like, no, we are meant to be constantly questing for connection.

So it's not an indictment on the people around you. It's like, you're questing for connection. So it's not an indictment on the people around you. It's like you're questing for that. I also think it's a big fucking setup because if you're born meant to connect, then in order to survive all the years of your life, you're also adding all these coping things like avoidance, disassociation, figuring shit out on your own, not being vulnerable to people.

All of the ways you've learned to cope are actually blocks to that connection. So it's like, here's the good news. You've only got one job, connect with everyone. Here's the bad news. We by the time you're 12, are going to saddle you with 25 things that make it virtually impossible for you to connect with people. Go forth and prosper.

It's terrible. It's like the first half of life. You know what, it reminds me of the credit card things that make me have a nervous breakdown every time I get to try to buy something where it's like, you put the credit card in. I know I always talk about this, but it's important to me. And it's like, do not remove, do not remove, do not remove, do not remove.

So I'm looking at it. I'm like, okay, I'm not removing what I'm doing right now is I'm not removing. And then suddenly remove, remove now, remove now. Okay. Right. So it's like the first half of life, it's like, protect yourself, protect yourself, protect yourself, create all these defense mechanisms, create all these survival techniques.

And then the second half of life is like, remove, remove, remove. And it's that idea of like, your job is not to seek for love, your job is to remove all the obstacles you've built that block you from love. And that's like second half of life work. But what I don't know is life work but what I don't know

is if that works. I don't know either. If anybody is like oh I'm no longer lonely I doubt it. No I think we don't even think of it the way of like remove card remove card. I think most of us think look I've got all these 25 things wrong with me and now I have a 26 thing wrong with me, which is that I'm lonely. We don't even associate that one is antithetical to the other. It's like on top of everything else. On top of everything else. I'm lonely.

Yes. But it's maybe we're lonely because we're standing on top of everything else. And I think what makes us upset also is when we try to fix it. So we do all the things that all the wellness people tell us. We reach out. We find a volunteer opportunity. We go to a local roller skating rink. Like whatever.

We're going to journal and journal and journal. We're going to journal the shit out of this. We're going to walk up to a stranger. We're going to do all this shit. And then it often doesn't make us feel better. It's like, okay, you can feel hungry. When I feel hungry, I eat food. Usually doesn't go well. Either I eat way too much and feel like shit. It's like, I can try to satisfy that certain longing or craving, but it's not like, oh great, now you did it and now it's better.

Even when we try to meet our own longings, they're longings. Longings do not quench. They're called longings because they last for so long! So, they're not quickings. They're not quickings. They're not easyings. They're long. I think it's great that Lauren, here's the good news. Hey, Lauren, great job.

On top of all that, you realized that you are lonely and you can identify it. That's great. And it's just moments. It's moments of transcendence. That's what you get. First of all, the only times I've ever cured my loneliness was when I was on drugs. Okay? That is why people use drugs.

Stop, stop shaming people. Okay? That is why people use drugs. Stop shaming people, okay? Drugs, look, they're not a long-term solution. Did it like cure your loneliness? The bad news is they will kill you. They will make you ultimately very lonely. Did they actually cure your loneliness? Okay, here's what I felt. Momentarily.

Momentarily, I felt often, depending on what drug it was, I would often feel whatever is the opposite of loneliness. I would feel a moment of connection with a greater consciousness. I would feel all of my defense mechanisms melt down. I would feel whatever it is I've been longing for since I was a baby. It's all love! Everything is love!

It's all love. And by the way, that's fucking truth. So like, it's a glimpse. Okay, it's not good. Don't do it. It doesn't end well. See all the rest of my podcasts and stories. But that's... When people are desperate to transcend...

That's why so many artists are on drugs. So many... It's because the longing is strong. The force is great in these ones. And they try to find these transcendent moments. The other time, artists are on drugs so many it's because the longing is strong the force is great in these ones and they try to find these transcendent moments the other time that I felt like I fixed my loneliness was when I was first madly in love with Abby okay that's the moment you're like oh this is amazing and I felt like I didn't exist anymore. But that's also because I was on drugs. The drug is, what is it?

Serotonin that floods your brain when you're in love? Oxycontin or something? Not Oxycontin. It's- Oxytocin? Oxytocin. Okay. Similar though.

Very similar. And dopamine and adrenaline and stuff. What I want to say to this, and I think we can move on after... I don't ever want to move on from this topic. What I want to say though is I feel like... I won't. I feel like this conversation of what the drugs can do is it kind of wears away the protective mechanisms that you put on to be able to accept the kinds of connection you're talking about.

I know from my own experiences and it's like, can we do that sober? That's the thing that I long for is to experience that kind of dimensional shifting consciousness of love where you don't need to even speak to somebody but you know that they are all love and they know that you are all love. And I feel like that's part of what I'm hearing Lauren talk about is like, how do I do this life? Feeling the longing, surrendering to that there is this longing in me. I think that we all definitely experience the

longing of something, I don't know, different or connection or love or whatever. And being able to create that without the use of like, you know, recreational drugs is I think the whole shebang. Yeah. I think it might be the closest thing to a definitive answer to Lauren is like, yes, loneliness. Agreed. Second. Good noticing. This was a test you passed.

You indeed are lonely, Lauren. Good job. Second, the conflation of relationships with loneliness. I just wish we'd be done with that because the lack of relationship doesn't make loneliness and having a relationship doesn't eliminate loneliness. So it's like a red herring. And so I think maybe it's like, these are two separate questions.

And if you're searching for a relationship to fix your loneliness, you're gonna be very sad to find out that that isn't gonna work. Is it a block within us though? That's what I wonder. Is it a block within us even when we're in relationship? I was very, very hungry for 20 years, but I had a pantry full of food and a refrigerator full of food.

There was no lack of access to quenching that desire and that longing to be full and satisfied, but I had all of this shit that kept me from doing what was necessary to temporarily quench that. So I do wonder if there are people listening to this who are like, oh, they just have more work to do, because I think there's probably people who feel. And I do think the quality of relationships matters.

Like I don't think it's just that relationships don't help loneliness. I think there's a certain quality of relationship that does, I mean, I have a couple friends now who I can tell I feel less lonely around. Like, that's a thing. Totally, totally. Right?

But if it's a human condition, it's either part of the, I totally hear what you're saying about if the pantry full of food and still hungry, you can have an amazing, I think there's no one size fits all, you can have an amazing opportunity to have connection within a relationship and be blocking yourself from accessing it. You can also have a tremendous capacity to connect and be with a person who is blocked from exchanging it. And so in both cases, you're lonely and you can be in a great relationship with a person who is blocked from exchanging it. And so in both cases, you're lonely

and you can be in a great relationship with a person who's open to it and you're open to it and you're doing the work and you've made each other less lonely. In any of those three situations, including a fourth, which is you are not in a relationship and you have figured out a way to find deep connection in your life and with

your universe and with yourself etc. I don't think the relationship is making you lonely or eliminating loneliness from your life. I don't think that's the factor in any of those four scenarios. Don't you think part of the human condition is to be longing with relationship or not? I think it could probably make you less lonely, but not. No, you're not gonna be fixed. It's not gonna get solved. It's like the state of the human condition. It's like how our daughter walks around sometimes

when she's stressed and something's coming, like a huge test or something, and she just will stand in the kitchen and go, and I'll say, what's wrong? And she'll go, I am stuck in the time continuum. That is not a- Space time continuum. Yeah, that's not a problem I'm ever gonna fix first.

She's right. It's whatever's next is coming for her no matter what she does. Right. There are just certain states that are part of the ache and time passing and ache, the aching longing to merge, to dissolve, to disappear, to be connected is just going to be there forever.

That's right. Let's move on to Natasha. This is Natasha again from Georgia. And I just thought of another thing that I really have burning in my brain. And that is about women supporting women. I am a feminist. I say I'm a feminist. I want to be a feminist. I want to be someone who loves women and supports them in all that they do. I'm raising a woman myself and I am a woman. But then I still, I was raised feeling less than being made to feel less than. I remember one time when I was probably 11 or 12 looking in the mirror and asking my

mom, am I pretty? And she didn't want me to be conceited. So she says, no, you are not. And that stuck with me. And it was one of the many traumas. But since then, I find that I treat women the same way. When they're getting too much praise, I'm like, oh no, that's too much praise.

We have this group chat from work and we have these women who are doing unbelievable things. And when I see too many people going, oh, you go girl, you're the best, you're so awesome. I'm like, oh my gosh, she's gonna get a big head. That's awful. And I know that's awful. And I agree with them that she's wonderful. That they're all wonderful. And I want that praise to continue, but I fight it internally and it makes me feel sick. Can you relate? Is there any way we can talk about that? Thanks guys. Okay, I'm gonna leave you alone now until the next time.

Love ya. I love her. I know I love Natasha. Very, very honest. What do you think? What do you think of when you hear that? I feel like there's so many levels to this. I just feel like,

I feel like there's so many levels to this. I just feel like I want to hug her neck at 11 or 12 asking if she's pretty and her mom saying no, you're not in order to keep her like not from having a big head. I just, I feel like there's so many levels to that. I mean, what is that idea that if we tell people they're not good, then that's better for them? Yeah. Because we wanna knock them down before the world does so it hurts less when the world knocks them down. Yes.

So like being knocked down by your mom is gonna, you'll be like, well, message received. Now I'm good. Now when the world tells me that I won't feel bad, as opposed to like, if your mom lifted you up, then the rest of the world knocking you down later, you'd be like, fuck off. You're wrong. Yeah, I think it's in the light most favorable to moms and parents. It was a part of her that was trying to love her daughter.

And she told herself, love is protection. And I know the world out there. And I know how the world reacts to a confident woman, which she is not wrong. Yep. And so I will keep her safe by not allowing her to be too confident. And we do that in a million different ways to our children. And I remember struggling with some of that when the kids were little and telling myself over and over again, even if the whatever the world's going to do, the world's going to do, the world might try to

tell my kid they're not good enough. All I can control is that it sure as hell is not going to come from me. Because I do think that I remember as an elementary school teacher, watching kids get mistreated in class and watching the world mistreat the kids that I had in a million different ways and really being able to observe in kids that it did not matter as much to the kids whose families thought they were the shit. If your parents are telling you constantly with their being, not even necessarily with words, but like with their being and the way they are with you constantly with their being, not even necessarily with words,

but like with their being and the way they are with you, that you are okay and you are wonderful, you will not believe the world when the world tells you you're not. But if your parents have loved you by preparing you and also telling you you're not good enough, then you will believe the world because it's just confirming what you've been told

by your parents, which is a, I don't know how you overcome hearing it in your house and hearing it outside. I think the kids have a fighting chance whose families gave them a different message, even if they were afraid that the world would surprise them by telling them the opposite. It's a touch tree. Yeah, kids are okay. Even if you don't believe it for a year or three years or four years, you can come back to it.

And then the second part of this question is that idea, which I always thought was horseshit, but like it's similar to the idea of like, put on your oxygen mask cause you can't help other people. But it's different than that because it's like, of course, when she was never allowed to access the part in her to be praised and of course when she would never allowed herself to experience over-the-top praise she is necessarily going to bristle and feel deeply uncomfortable and not allow other people

to receive over-the-top praise. This is a true thing. This is why when my husband isn't making himself crazy running around the house working his ass off, I go to a crazy place in my head not because I don't want that for him, not because he doesn't deserve it, not because he's not, but because I won't let myself stop doing that. You can't allow someone else to experience something, even if you intellectually know it's correct and right and good, unless you are actually for real allowing yourself to do it. That's right.

Yeah, that's right. That's a hundred percent right. So every time we're uncomfortable with somebody else getting something good, we think we're trying to decide whether it's right for us to want that for that other person. But what we're actually feeling is a signal that we want that thing. Mm-hmm. Right? Or that we're either not even allowing ourselves to have it. I think the wanting it is even a separate hurdle. I think even just knowing,

because you're such baby steps with this shit, right? It's like, I feel deeply uncomfortable with that situation happening, or I'm angry about that person getting that thing, or I'm jealous, or I need it to stop, I need to control this. Oh wait, in what ways am I stopping myself, controlling myself, not allowing myself to access that thing?

Yep. It's a hard thing to manage and explore and navigate within yourself because I think that we can absolutely point back to this moment of your mama telling you what she told you at 11 or 12. I also think that the world over is telling all of us young girls that we need to be quiet, we need to be humble. And then as this world has evolved, people around you, young women around you are going to start achieving things. Whether that makes you feel that pang of jealousy or whatnot. I think it's really interesting to me how we celebrate other people around us or if we don't. And in my experience having been you know this whole idea of

good, bad, celebrating, praise, whatever, like we can talk about the ego another day. But I do think it's really important that when somebody around us does something wonderful, that we are able to experience internally the moment of jealousy that we wish we were getting that praise. Yes, and don't deny it.

And don't deny that, it's a human instinct. Give yourself the grace and the space to be able to experience that jealousy and also know that you can still show up for those people and praise them or you know appreciate their work or congratulate them on their success. And I think that if we can get into a rhythm and accustomed to doing that, that is a way to actually free yourself up to do it. If you can't know how to do it for yourself, learn how to do it for other people first. Yeah, it's like when you tell me when I say I'm scared, I'm nervous before we do something and you always say, okay, or you could be excited. Like same physiological, you know, response, response,

just a switch in words. Sometimes, I mean, honestly, that one's never helped me, but I do understand that it's helped other people. Okay, I'm just saying, honestly, that's never helped me. I'm like, okay, great, I'm excited, whatever. But one that does help me is, I've experienced jealousy all the time. Like things I don't want

to do. I'm still jealous other people do that. Things I don't want to go to. I'm still jealous of other people got invited to it. Things I don't want. It's just, it's ridiculous. But see loneliness. But I did discover this thing a while back that sometimes I can't change my thinking until I change a behavior over and over again and then that behavior eventually changes my thinking. For example, what I figured out is if every time I feel jealous of somebody who got something that I want or whatever, or I didn't even know that I want, I don't know. If I feel that pain and then I do something to reach out to that person to say,

wow, awesome job. So impressive. Or if I don't have access to that person, if I share the awesome thing that they just did on social media or just with somebody else, this thing is awesome. But this person did. It shifts the thing. It shifts the pain. I suddenly feel powerful instead of unpowerful.

And so it makes me wonder if jealousy can be reframed as admiration. If it's just like an admiration holding its breath is jealousy. So I do think that you can kind of transform it if you take your power back and use your agency to say, I like that thing. I like that thing that you did. I also think that some of this is generational. Like my guess would be, I don't know if this is true, but listening to this question, my guess would be that Natasha is like a Gen Xer or a millennial. And that these women that are lifting each other up and telling each other they're awesome are Gen Z or millennials, right?

That's would be my guess because I, example, Pod Squad. You know me as a person who celebrates feelings, right? Everyone have all their feelings. Let's feel it all. Feelings as information, yada, yada, yada. Okay. I often hear myself saying about younger women who do what I have told them to do,

which is bring their full selves to things, express their feelings. I found myself saying recently, oh I know to whom you should express your feelings. Your therapist or your mother. Not to me. Now I didn't say these things to them but I felt these things and when people share other feelings with me in professional professional settings, I often think, stop. You don't get to do that. I am a person who was raised in a way where I experienced it as not being allowed to have a lot of feelings. Okay?

So there is this like hazing, it's like hazing. Yes. We, even if in my professional life, I am fighting for you to have that thing. That's like hazing. Yes. We, even if in my professional life I am fighting for you to have that thing. That's what I do. I want you to have that thing. I want women to have all of it. I want them to have this thing. When they bring that thing to me, I'm like, who the hell do you think you are? I walked six miles up a hill. No one ever let me have feelings. No one ever whatever. So there is like a passing on the suffering. We're just deeply pissed

that we didn't get the access and the opportunity that the younger generation gets. And that's okay and we can give ourselves that and we can say it's okay for me to feel this and I'm jealous and also I can say yay also. Yeah yeah. I can say yay to that and not fully feel it. It's a really good point because I think what I hear Natasha doing is questioning herself, berating herself, insulting herself about this. Like I say I'm a feminist, am I even a feminist? I fight it internally. She says it makes me feel sick that I behave this way. I know, bless her. That is more self blame. And what I really think is if we're going back to her really little baby self, she's

already made this connection of, she said, one of many traumas. So I'm sure it wasn't just the pretty thing. It was probably whenever she got a little too big for her skin and made her mom uncomfortable, that all of these attachment things of like, am I real? Am I safe? Am I seen? She was not able to be seen by her mother, seen and celebrated for what she was. And now she sees all of these women be seen and celebrated. And I think it would be really interesting

if when we get into that conflict, when we feel that discomfort of like, I'm feeling discomfort that this person is being celebrated. I'm feeling anger. I'm feeling jealous. What if it were to be like, oh, I am feeling this way because I wasn't allowed to have that and still do not allow myself to have that. Instead of beating myself up for feeling this way, take a moment to be sad, to grieve, to

be like, I deserved that whole time to be seen and celebrated. I deserved from the time I was 11 up until now, including now, like it is right for me to feel sad about that. And let go of the continuing to be like, I should not. No, of course you should. You should feel deeply uncomfortable when that happens because it didn't happen for you. Yes. It's like an opportunity. That's what I really do feel like these things that we say, why do I do this thing? This thing that I'm doing makes me sick.

That is the beautiful gift of walking through this must be something that I get to heal to be freer. Because it actually doesn't ever have to do with what anyone else is getting. It always has to do what you didn't get and what you need. And so there actually is every ickiness, in my experience, every ickiness turns into a signal that that's a tender place that needs to be attended to for me.

But it feels like the theme of both of these questions, Lauren and Natasha, I'm lonely, I'm jealous, I'm lonely, I'm angry, I'm lonely, I'm longing. Our response is yes. Correct. Same. There is nothing wrong with you. Unless it's also very wrong with us three. Okay, we shouldn't. We should.

But remember like the theme of this podcast we say over and over again, like the thing that drives us nuts is the picture in our head of how it's supposed to be. What if it's supposed to be longing? What if it's supposed to be these What if it's supposed to be longing? What if it's supposed to be these uncomfortable places that lead us to our healing? What if all of these things are exactly right? I agree. You do?

I do. Okay. We're going to go now. Bye. See you next time. because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle,

Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman, and this show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.