We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Survive This Absurd Life with Samantha Irby

Episode Date: June 30, 2022

1. Sam’s life-changing strategies for (reluctantly) interacting with humans. 2. How we use humor to hide the lava of rage churning beneath our surface. 3. Sam’s friendship theory and why she doesn’t need a deep soul connection with every “lowercase f friend.” 4. Sam’s embrace of JOMO (Joy of Missing Out)–and why she genuinely believes no one else is having a better time (except maybe Abby). 5. The behind-the-scenes story of the “Fat Babe Pool Party” Shrill show–and why that episode was one of the most important things she’s ever written. About Samantha: Samantha Irby writes the "Bitches Gotta Eat" blog, and is the author of WOW, NO THANK YOU; WE ARE NEVER MEETING IN REAL LIFE; and MEATY. She has been a writer and/or co-producer for TV shows including And Just Like That, Work in Progress, Shrill, and Tuca & Bertie. IG: @bitchesgottaeat To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. You stopped asking directions, some places they've never been. Hello, sweet world.

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. I think today we'll call this We Can Do Funny Things because we have one of the funniest people in the universe here. Someone, the three of us love to high heavens. Yeah. So first of all, I'll just tell you, we have Sam Erby here.

I know. I'm laugh out loud author. All right, Samantha Erby writes, the bitch has got to eat blog and is the author of, wow, no thank you. We are never meeting in real life and meaty. She has been a writer and or co-producer for TV shows including and just like that work in progress, shryll, and to gut and birdie. Sam Erby, welcome to We Can Do Your Heart Things. Thank you for having me on your incredible show. I am very intimidated. I'm gonna do my best to sound like cool and relaxed, but I heard this.

Okay, so let's get the cool out of the way right away because what I wanna start with, Sam, is our friendship origin story, which is my favorite story in the world. Okay, so Sam and I did an event together. At the end of the event, I loved her so much. I sent her my phone number and email months and months later. Low so many months later, I am sitting in France at the world cup. Okay. As you do, as you do. Right. I'm at the soccer as per usual.

But it's a big soccer, okay? Like the biggest soccer. It's the biggest soccer. Like the Super Bowl of soccer. The Oscars of soccer, if you will. Yes. The Grammys. I mean, also it's just the World Cup.

The Grammys of the Soccer. The World Cup is, it's a standalone event. Okay. This is what everything else compares to the two. So like the tonies. The tonies of soccer. My gosh. Just go with the story.

And I get a text, okay? And it says something like the following, hello, Glennon. I'm sorry to ask you later, friendship on text in this way, but I'm an emergency. I'm sitting in a room full of people. And I may have told the people that I'm very good friends with you and Adi.

And now they are calling me on it and asking me to call you so can you please answer your phone and act like we're good friends. I mean, even I remember it exactly. I was in the work in progress writers room and someone mentioned you too and like to be cool. I was like, oh, you made my friends. And they were like, and then I have a text to you and be like, um, please, could you act like you're best friends so that I can impress these people who think I'm a huge liar. And you did. And they were impressed. Of course, we were sending pictures like the time that if you couldn't come with us,

here's your extra seat, this game sucks without you. Yeah. Yeah. But I've loved you ever since that moment. OK, so Sam, we want to start this interview with one of our favorite questions, which is this. It was a question that Rachel Elizabeth asked, and it was this, did you have a happy childhood,

or are you funny? I'm funny. I'm funny. I'm funny. Take that to mean what you will, but no, no, let's say I'm very funny. I'm funny. I'm very fun. Got it.

Yeah. Isn't that like the best question, though? I think it's a really good question. And it's totally, I know it's a trope, but it's totally true. Whenever you meet anyone you think is funny, you just want to get to the point where you're like, okay, what's your damage? Like where did this come from? Do our damages match? Or can I learn something new about another way

you can be fucked up? You know, I was like, I have my way. What's your way? How did you get here? And usually it's some like terrible trauma, but because you're talking to a funny person, they may get funny. And you're like, oh, what happened? Who died? Who got hit by a what? And then you're like cracking up. And then

later, it's like, oh man, I'm really glad that I got to know that person, but also am I an asshole for laughing at all the stuff they told me in a funny way. People say that to me, they'll be like, you know, when you talk about your childhood, it makes me really sad, but also, I really laugh. Is that okay? And I'm like, yeah, I want you to. I laugh. It's the only way that I'm okay

as if I can laugh about it. What went down that you had to get funny for? Well, I think, so I grew up super poor, but in a weird sort of poverty where I was surrounded by a lot of people who had money and parents, and when you're a kid, you don't really have any idea of who has what, you just know what you don't have.

For me, I had to find a way to sort of, I was gonna say rationalize, but that's not the way to see what I lacked and not feel bad about it, right? So it's like, I don't have all of this stuff. My mom was really sick and then she went into a nursing home and then I bounced around and like foster homes and stuff. And it's like, this has to be funny or it'll kill me. I think that's my philosophy to this day.

It's like even in the most bleak of circumstances, I have to find like the joke in order to keep going. Because I am not a traditionally hopeful person, right? I'm like, I guess I can make it. And so the laughter sort of keeps the, I guess I can make it going. It's so interesting because some people have, a lot of us have the like, it'll get better. So the optimism, we get through

because we tell ourselves it's gonna get better, but your theory has always been, no, I can just make the next five minutes more bearable. Yes, yeah. I can laugh at this thing. At, so my, both my parents died when I was 18, not together, which would have been cheaper, more emotionally. More emotionally.

I can't let go. For me. But at my most, you're also like, I was like 18. I mean, barely have a brain at 18, right? I couldn't deal with grief, but I also couldn't deal with people like looking at me because, you know, everyone's always looking at you, you're the star of the movie. And when you're at her funeral and it was like really sad, I was just as nervous sitting in the front row and the minister who was performing the service

didn't know my mom very well, but he knew my sister because it was at her the church she went to and my sister's name is Carmen and he kept referring to my mom as Carmen. Oh my gosh. And when I tell you I was screaming laughing, like by the end, by like the fourth time, I was falling over in the pew laughing. My sisters were laughing. And I was just like, okay, this is how we get through this, right? Like it's terrible. And we're gonna have to like sort through our stuff and figure out how much debt she was in and all that stuff.

But to get through that moment, we just were like crying laughing at the dude. And like Carmen, I mean, I felt bad for her because she, like he kept our names. I was like, shouldn't you climb in there like pointing to the camera. like he kept our I was like shouldn't you climb in there like pointing to the One absurd thing and just like Kling to that till you get through to a good place Can I just say you're you laughter, the way you laugh makes me happy. Me too, I feel happy.

Yeah. Wow. What you just described at the funeral, this is my whole question about humor. Is humor a way to deflect and hide from reality? Or is it actually the most real reality? Because it's like everything's absurd all the time, even the very sorrowful things are outrageously absurd.

So are we like using it as a shield of armor to protect us from reality? Or is it actually the most active engagement with reality is to be like, this shit is funny. For me, I feel like it's the most active way to interact with reality. Although, I would say, okay, sometimes with humor, I use it to protect myself.

And I think that developed early, right? Because I was like, I've always been a little fat kid with buck teeth, right? And nobody is charitable to you. And so my my defense mechanism was always like, let's beat them to the joke. Where I grew up, I grew up in Evanston, which is just north of Chicago. It's where Northwestern is. I don't know if it still exists, but when I was growing up, there was this like community donation place called Esca. And all of the fancy people would like donate their clothes there. And those

of us who were not fancy would get clothes from there. And because I was like a sad kid, I would always be like wearing someone's like, dad's golf shirt to school, right? And when they'd the girls like, I think that's my dad's shirt. And I could have, you know, like in the movie version, I would like, you know, melt into a puddle and there would be some sort of lesson.

But I was like, he has great taste and the pits still smell like him. You know, like something disgusting, but funny. And she was disarmed and I didn't feel bad for being poor. We just like had that moment. And so it has served to protect me in that way. But I think as an adult, what you said about engaging with reality in a more real way,

I think when you were always looking for the absurd thing, you can't ignore any part of what's happening, right? I think when you were always looking for the absurd thing, you can't ignore any part of what's happening, right? It's like, okay, this sucks, but I'm gonna dig through all the suck to see what's funny about it. I think it makes like going through life less scary, you know? And I can't show like a super anxious person. If I look in the rearview mirror and a car is coming too close, I feel like it's chasing me. I

mean like anxious for real, but my way of dealing with that is just to really receive all of it and then pick out the part that'll make you laugh. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. So that continues to be as the world crumbles, but so far, so far, it's worth it's worth. I have a quick follow up to that. So in the shirt situation, the funny mist gets you through that moment, right? Because you're disarming her, you're disarming you, you're taking it away. But is the underlying, Oh, I wanna die.

Yeah, you still have to deal with the underlying stuff, right? Oh, absolutely. Oh, yes. Like underneath that, it's like, I hate my mom for being poor. I hate my body for not sitting into cute things. Like no, under the surface, I don't know that anyone would think I was like

a lighty frivolous person. But under the surface of the funny is like, you know, molten lava of rage, right? And disappointment and hurt and all of these things that like I was born into or not my fault, like that's always there. But if I engage with that all the time, I couldn't get out of bed, right? Like I would just be like, oh, why was I put on earth to suffer? So I'll make the jokes, but it's like seawold by the the rage lava within. It's like the stereotyping of comedians in the world, right? Like how so many comedians have this like low level rage running underneath all of their jokes. Like to me, it's their way of coping, but I also wonder for you,

how are you actually like dealing with that stuff that's actually underneath it? Like what are things that you're doing that make you? Is it always a deflection or a covering? Yeah, because you got to look at it, you got to present it, you got to turn it over and actually deal with it in moments even if they're private. Yeah, what's happening with the lava? Well, sometimes the lava gets worked out in my work.

Like, that's the beauty of writing about myself is that I can sit in front of a computer and sort through it. I just, well, I shouldn't say just, for the past year, I've been going to therapy, which is interesting. Well, you could tell me therapy is interesting in general. So I chose a cognitive behavioral therapist. And I don't like therapy. Let's just say that. My therapist, the thing she tells me are sort of the antithesis of what I do, right? So I fuel myself off my negative thoughts. Like my jokes come from there, my writing comes from there. My therapist is always like,

let's reframe those negative thoughts. And I'm like, girl, I have you going to give me a book deal? I'm going to give me a book deal. I'm just saying the three book deal girl, I need these It's so complicated because your your your livelihood depends on it. Yeah, do it that. Are you becoming positive? No, I'm just finished writing one and it's snarkier than ever. I have a whole chapter snarking about therapy and why I'm saying I'm picking off this money to argue with the woman. I mean, we don't argue, but in my head, I'm not doing that. I'm not saying positively about that. So it's like a huge waste of time, and I should probably find a different kind of therapy, but

one of the things we're working on is boundaries and knowing when to say no. So as soon as she gets me to the point where I learn how to say no, I'm going to tell her no. Okay. So is there anything that's been helpful? Have you experienced anything in that room that has been helpful for your lava? Yes. Okay, so one thing I like to do with her is come up with strategies and I've come up with two life-changing earth-shattering

strategies. I'm going to give them to you. I haven't written about them. No one knows. Okay, my first one is a strategy. I call I like it. So I have found and I'm sure you guys know too, when you say, you can say anything. Oh, man, that episode of 9-1-1, I love that show. That episode of 911 was really great. There's always gonna be somebody who's like, you watch that and it's like, you know, yes. And like people expect you to apologize for what you want. It's like strangers are like expecting you to justify your taste.

And I have found that if you just say, I like it, it completely kneecaps them, right? That's right. It's so weird once I started doing it, I noticed all the ways I had to get something from a strip mall. And this lady was like, oh, that's where you go. I don't have any allegiance to the strip mall,

but I don't like this lady making me feel like an asshole. So I was like, I like it. And then she was like, and I was like, yeah, I like it. That Strip Mall was great. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, I just can't say anything. They're just like, so that strategy, strategy two, this one is a little harder and it's more recent.

But when people act like in a way that shows you that they don't like you, telling them that you don't think they like you is, it changes everything. It gets you out of things. So I had this interaction with this person I've known for a long time, and this is a thing about sort of being funny. My humor is always projected internally, right? Like I don't pick on people, I don't make fun of people, I don't care what anybody does, I am the villain of all my stories, so I pick on myself. I think that's good.

I do. I'm so much better. I'm like a T-Rex. My tiny arms. Punching. Yeah. That's my little arms. My little rock-em-sac-em-robot arms punching myself.

And sometimes that gives people, they take license and like sort of punch me too. And it's like, well, this is a single person game. Like you can laugh at it, but I don't want you to, you know, rag on me all the time. So there's this woman who every interaction, she was just like low-key putting me down, but also being like, ha-ha, we're friends, right?

And she asked me to hang out. This was a while ago. She asked me to hang out and I was like, oh, no thanks. And she was like, why? And I was like, cause I don't think you like me. And she was like, what? And I was like, yeah, I just don't think you like me. And she was like, what? And I was like, yeah, I just don't think you like me.

And she was like, I'm surprised to hear that. And she didn't say, I do like you. She said, I'm surprised to hear that. And I was like, I picked up what I was like. I was like, I bet you are surprised to hear that. Cause you just thought I would keep taking it and keep letting you like, pissing my face and tell me it's raining.

And I just don't think you like me. And the way we ended it, she was just like, oh, okay. And I was like, okay, bye. Wow. It's worth all the money just for those two strategies. Okay, and I was like, okay, bye. It's worth all the money just for those two strategies. Allow me to my therapist is very like, I mean, you guys know when you make things for people and you see all, um, a duty to your audience, I want to be open to people, I want to engage with people, I want them to keep in, you know, engaging with IE, buying the things that I'm trying to sell. Engaging with.

But at some point, you just have to be like, okay, okay, I got a set up boundary here. I got to say no to this. I got to do whatever. It has been very helpful in At least in like changing the dynamic of people who talk to me. I mean, I'm sure that there's a deep dive that I'm missing here about like maybe the way I talk about myself should change I'm not ready to conquer that. No, we're not there yet. You're not letting anybody else punch in and I love that. That step one is just to find ways to deflect. So that has been helpful. But I mean, the rest of therapy, I don't know. We're going to keep going. But I don't want to get too fixed, right? No.

But I think that that's a really important thing to say for those that are listening, because you don't have to like therapy to continue to go and actually get something out of it. Yeah. That's really courageous to know. I don't like this, but I've gotten a couple things out of it that I feel really good about. And I'm going to keep going because of it that I feel really good about. And I'm gonna keep going, cause like maybe there'll be a third thing. Or go, like take what you need,

and then be like, I think you've taken me as far, I don't wanna be fixed all the way, I'm outta here. I don't wanna be fixed all the way. I don't try to picture her face if I say I don't wanna be fixed all the way. And just imagining that is gonna make me keep going. When she's like, you don't worry. You're not even close.

There's not an imminent threat of being fixed. You thought that. You thought you were improving in any way, but you need to keep seeing me. Don't worry. Yeah. My therapist favorite phrase, one secession. There's so much fertile ground here. So much fertile ground.

So yeah, don't worry. How does it make you feel? I'm happy for her because I feel like she's very excited about all the opportunities we have to work on very many things. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class.

My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I wanna talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. Shh. Ha, ha, ha.

I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward embarrassing and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said you know for the house cleaner I hide the tag on the six dollar bread and I just thought don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts. Speaking of helpful, you are the mastermind behind one of the most revolutionary groundbreaking portrayals of big women on screen ever. And I'm obviously talking about the Fat Babe Pool Party

episode of Shrill, which became just instant classics so important to so many people. Can you tell us why you wrote that and what that whole process was like for you? Yeah, so Shrel is based on Lindy West's memoir of the same name and Lindy and I are very close friends. TV writing is so weird, it was my first TV job and we're in the room and we wanted to take the character from this place of being kind of meek and putting up with a bad dude and putting up with a job that sucked to this point

where she was like bold, not all the way bold, you know, we wanted to do more than one season. So a little bit more bold and vocal, at least sticking up for herself. And so we were brainstorming ideas for like a big pivotal experience she could have that would change her. Now everybody knows like in real life

it takes years and years and years and years of like looking at tumblers of fat bodies, looking at, you know, it's not just an overnight kind of thing but Hulu wasn't gonna give us, you know, 700 episodes for the first season. So we had to figure out a transformative experience she could have. And so Lindy and I were talking about all of the different things we had, been to that sort of changed our ideas about sadness. And I talked about, there used to be this dance party for

FACK girls in Chicago that would meet like once a month. And I would go to that clothing swaps, like lots of different like websites and stuff, but there's no way to show that on TV. And Lindy had gone to one of, I think, Essie Golden started this party called the chunky dunk. May not have been S.E. Golden had a pool party

and there were other pool parties. And Lindy had gone to a bunch of them. And it was like, let's do that. We have to do that. We wanna see that, showing women who look like us that they are beautiful and making this thing. So we landed on a pool party and we figured out what was gonna be in the other episodes.

And then when it got to the time of like assigning the showrunner assigned me the pool party episode and I was like, okay, all right. You know, I was like, okay, all right. You know, I was so excited. And so when I was writing it, I was just like, I wanna see almost like a real life candy land, like just beautiful, bright. I didn't want it to be at the dingy hotel pool

in like a rundown, Sheridan or whatever, no shades in the Sheridan or some like sleazy hotel. I really wanted it just to be like almost like a dream. Because we deserve that, right? So I wrote it, I turned it in, the writer's room ended, then I came back home to Michigan and they all went to Portland to shoot. And so Lindy was like,

you got to come out for your episode. And I was a little nervous because what you imagine is rarely what the real thing turns out to be. I also did not understand like television budgets and that kind of thing. So I was like, I don't know what it's gonna look like. I just hope I hope it's good. You know, I flew out to Portland and my biggest concern though, other than how it looked was I was like, oh, it's just gonna be like Hollywood fat people. It's gonna be a bunch of like size eights and tens

and not size 32s and 40 forty so you know what I mean like Yes, it's so when you are in charge of anything like I'm a very let go and let God kind of person But also I knew what it could mean if we could do it the right way if we could do it our way So we drive out to this country club and they were like Sam go look at the pool. So I went and looked at the pool and like I almost burst into tears. It was the set was so beautiful. It was just like all these beautiful floaties and like the stands they set up, like everything looked so gorgeous. And I was like, okay, okay. And then Lindy was like, let's go talk to the extras.

And they had everybody inside the ballroom of this beautiful country club. And we go in and I walked around the corner and I just saw all of these gorgeous women of all sizes, all abilities, like there was a woman in a wheelchair and there are women on crutches. And there are like non-binary people and it just which was so great. The costume people were designing things on site for people, just so they no one was in utilitarian, you know, like basic bathing suit, like everyone's in gorgeous calf tans and beautiful bright colors. They had hair and makeup for everybody. And it was just, and there were so many people. And I was like, oh, this is astonishing. Like I, too, I didn't have words. I saw what was gonna happen was what happens always

as they were gonna like throw, you know, three size tins in a pool and be like, there's your party. But it was really gorgeous and everyone was like, so cared for and it was really beautiful. And the entire time I was just sitting in the video village just like watching the monitors, I can't believe they let us do this.

Like that was really my overall feeling. It felt like we were getting away with something. I cannot believe they let us do this. And then they let us be in it. I don't know if you saw my- Yes, you know, yeah. Briefed, yeah. You know, by the fool.

And I was like, okay, if I never work on another episode of TV again, it'll be fine. Like we really did something special. And then it came out and it just looked so gorgeous. It's so beautiful and everyone did such a great job. It is like one of my crowning achievements was getting to work. I have a quick follow up.

Yeah. Who decides? Because you say they let us do this. Somebody chose to actually do it in the vision in which you wrote it. Yeah, who's that? You say it like go like God, but like somebody in that role in the TV world,

it's an important role. Yeah. As you said, they got it right. Who is that person? So Lindy was executive producer, but you know, there's like many ranks. So I think Lindy was step one in being like, this gotta be good, it's gotta be right. And then Hulu, whoever the executives were at Hulu, whoever like green lights the money. So you know TV crew

people, they're like hardcore, they're dressed in black, they have lots of carabiners and hats, they're good to be. And in Portland, they like look like Portland, like messenger, bike rows. And so I was walking back to the car after the second day of shooting. This guy comes up, he is just like covered in tattoos, like real gruff-looking. And he's like, are you Sam Arby?

And I was like, uh-oh, yes. And he was like, I just wanted to tell you what an honor it is to have worked on this episode. And I was like, okay. That's great. This person who, I mean, I don't know his relationship to sat women, but like, he, I wouldn't guess that he was like a guy who would be in touch with us

and our issues and he appreciated it. That was like the very beginning of like, oh, okay, we're doing a thing. It sort of, it was apparent. If you think about it too long, it's like a shame that this was the first event of its kind and that it was so meaningful. Like, the hope is that we can make so many more shows and episodes like this that it's not an anomaly and we don't need to celebrate it, but it was very cool. Just in that moment to have him acknowledge it and then since it's been out to have people be like, that meant so much to me, but that's very cool. I'm not going to be a fan of you.

I'm not going to be a fan of you. I'm not going to be a fan of you. I'm not going to be a fan of you. I'm not going to be a fan of you. I'm not going to be a fan of you. I'm not going to be a fan of you. I'm not going to be a fan of you. I'm not going to be a fan of you.

I'm not going to be a fan of you. I'm not going to be a fan of you. I'm not going to be a fan of you. I'm not going to be a fan of you. I'm not going to be a fan of you. I'm not, I find this part of you very interesting, okay? You approach friendship in a very different place than a lot of people I know. You can be friends. Well, you're friends with a dude who wears a Budweiser belt buckle unironically. What? Right? Yes.

So, this is hard for me to do because I don't know. I read people out here. I guess I believe that people's belief systems as might be manifested in their belt buckles are parts of their character. Right? So I want to learn from you in this. Tell me how this works for you because you can be friends with anybody. Yeah. Let me how this works for you, because you can be friends with anybody. Yeah, I can. For me, it's like, are you, are you funny and can you take a joke? Right?

That's like the primary thing. It's like, can we have a laugh? Because all I'm trying to do is be laughing all the time. Like, you know, I'm not a clown, but I like, let's, what's clown around? Let's have fun. So, you know, I'm not a clown, but I like let's, let's clown around. Let's have fun. So if you can be fun, and if you think I'm funny, oh, let's go back and say,

if you think I'm funny, you're halfway through the door, right? I'm like, oh, you're delighted by something I've said. Come on in, murderer. You know what I mean? That is totally me. That is me. If somebody laughs at a single joke, I'm like, I'm like, you're a mess.

That's crazy. That's crazy. That's weird. Yes. We are soulmates. Oh, you think I'm funny? Let me give you my sin. You know what I mean?

I have the kind of personality that just, I don't know, I can just get along with a lot of people. I think I have been fortunate enough that I haven't ever tried to be friends, someone who was so different from me, like politically, that it's been a problem. Like, I don't have any friends who hate gay people or trans people. I don't have any friends who are like hardcore conservatives. I have a lot of like friends that I think you'd be like, what the y'all bond over? And then I'll be like, well, I watch wrestling and then like it explains that friendship. You're like, oh, you have a very narrow way of connecting

with this person. And sometimes for me, that's all it takes is we can have a shared interest in one thing and we don't have to get into other things, you know? That is so good. Yeah, it's, don't you wish, don't you wish? No, that is exactly how I feel. I know, babe.

And you have a barrier to entry that is so fucking long. That's what I asked. And I'm okay, I'm trying to learn. No, I think it's so beautiful, because I can connect with somebody on one thing. And in a lot of ways, I can ignore a bunch of the other shit that I'm seeing, and I'm like, well, I like them in this way. Yeah, and this is fun.

Me too. I think so I'm not gonna guess, Glennon, why you have your rules, but I am going to, so if this is kind of a guess, I'm going to say that I don't need to have, and this not shade, an intimate, like, sole relationship with everybody. Right? Like, I don't need to get to the depths of people if we're just like having a laugh or like we can talk about, you know, this one thing. Sometimes those narrow friendships like branch out and grow, but I don't go into things

being like, okay, I'm going to meet this person and I'm going to hang out with them and then I want to know everything about them. Some people, you don't, you know, you don't wanna know, you don't want them to know everything about you. So I think because I don't look at everyone as like a potential like soul friend because I'm just like, well, this is just my buddy who I do this with, then it's easier to like let some of that other stuff fall away.

I feel like you want to have deep friendships with everyone. Yes. I think that's what I'm usually, if someone's in my house watching wrestling, Sam, which wouldn't happen, but okay, I am thinking. I'm side-eyeing that person thinking, is this person one of my soulmates or not? Right. And then when they roll their eyes at the wrong commercial, it's over. thinking, I'm side-eyeing that person thinking, is this person one of my soulmates or not? Right. And then when they roll their eyes at the wrong commercial, it's over.

You know? It's really something. I respect that because the quality of your friendships is probably really great because you love it. Yes, everyone on Friends with us on this podcast right now. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. Well, so that's the thing. And I think it feels like rude to call someone in acquaintance, but that's essentially the difference, right? It's like, we're friends,

because I know you and I know you and I know me and I know. Are acquaintances who were just like, oh, Bob, yeah, he's a good time. We don't need to know Bob so, and like, it feels good to call Bob in acquaintance because that just is like a rude word. So, we need like a capital S friend and the lower kid. Yes, yes, we need different words for friends.

We need different words for friends because I don't wanna say Bob's my friend because I don't want that to reflect. The next thing Bob says this and then you're like, wait, why your friends with that? Right. Different words. Right. But don't you think it all goes back to your view of life? Like, see, I'm your view of life is I want to find the absurd. I want to experience the absurd. I want to be part of seeing being part of this experiencing this. And so you intersect with people who can bring that out of you or share that experience with you. Glenens' view of life is very different than that.

She's like, I'm gonna have a very narrow but deep experience of life. And I don't actually want to participate in any extracurriculars. Right. I do not want any depth whatsoever. I told you that's where the lava is. We could only dip a toe in there

before things get dangerous. So I try to guess near the top of the volcano where it's like smoky and sexy and fine. But I only get into the lava with a few people. And I'll tell you why. That makes perfect sense. I'm not going to put it on them. I'm going to say that I have that fear of when people really get down

and see what's in there. They're going to be like, oh, bye. And that's one of the hazards, I think, of like being a funny person, not just in life, but in my career, is that sometimes people don't think that lower level exists, and then they are surprised when they get a glimpse of it.

And I'm like, all I do is write about depression. How do you think that manifests itself for real? So I think like having lowercase f friends, it like feels good to the ego, it's good to know people, it's good to have people around, but also I'm not in danger of finding out any of their dark shit and they're not in danger of finding out any of their dark shit and they're not in danger of finding out any of mine.

And thus rejecting me on account of that darkness. So it's good. It's a safety measure. So good. I get that. I get that. Do you sometimes feel responsibility to just always be funny and always be doing the thing? The other people people. No, I'm not entertaining them. I do. It never bothers me until I have a problem. And I talk about it to someone who wants funny Sam. And they're like, oh, just laugh it off. And I'm like, no, this is the part where you find out

that I got to go to bed for three days about it. Sometimes it takes like a little distance. I can always laugh at things, maybe not in the moment, or the next day. Eventually, I'll get there. There have been people who can't deal with the in the moment. Like, I'm not over this yet. And then you know that's never going to be your capital F friend, always going to be a lowercase. Never call that person when you have a problem. Never expect more from them than the surface that you're getting. And I think sometimes people divide themselves into those categories for you.

My friend John, who I met like on the internet forever ago, this was like 10 years ago maybe I had posted that I was in the hospital and we were just internet friends then and he came and visited and was the only person who visited and I was like oh you want wanna be here during this stuff? Okay, real real friends, but I never put that pressure on anyone because I know not everybody wants that. I like to let, I like to do a little sorting of my own

and then let people do it sort themselves into their capital F or lower case F, you know. I love that. Speaking of capital F friends, can we talk about your lady a little bit? So your lady, is it Kirsten or Kirsten? It's Kirsten. Thank you for it.

You've got it right? Oh my God, now she's gonna be your lady since you got her name right. Because you know, she's gonna be like, glen inside what? Because she's going to be like, Glennon said what? Bye. I know it's coming. OK.

So you two, didn't you meet? Did she reach out to you? She's living on your DMs. She's living here, she has. She's living with me. And this was like back when I was still like looking at People saying things to me on Twitter who I didn't know now. I'm not even on Twitter anymore

But she tweeted that she loved the book and then we got into one of those like tweet conversations And I'm not a private person, but I do not like to conduct a public conversation. Like, it wasn't a talk. She kept responding and I was like, bitch, get into my inbox. I mean, both of them. But get into my inbox. So. That was a start of DMing.

And then I was like, it reached a level that I was like, is this, this isn't casual anymore. But with women, at least with this woman, it was never like, oh, I want to fuck. It was just like, I'm talking to you all the time. And I was like, okay, I'm your king girl. You know, okay. And then so we just we graduated to talking a lot. And then at a certain point, I was like, listen, this is getting romantic. Are we? Is this romantic? And she was like, yeah.

And I was like, okay, great. And then we then we started sort of talking. That was brave of you. That was a very brave thing. I just say, is this getting romantic? How did you muster that up? I think. That's showing the lava. That's showing the lava.

Yeah, well, we had been talking for so long that I was like, I don't know. And it's hard to know when people like want you or want the book you or, you know? And so like we had talked past the point where I thought, oh, she's just like a fan. This is something else. And but it was also so much talking that I was like,

I cannot be talking to a person who doesn't want to buy me dinner. I need an ROI on all this talking. I'm like, my thumb is getting fractured from Texan's person. What are we doing? So then I am not brave, but in that moment I was brave and was like, what are we doing? And like I said moment I was brave and was like, what are we doing? And like I said it in a way that was like, if she was like, oh, we're just talking,

it would be, I could like laugh it off. And in case I had shown vulnerability to the students. So yeah, we just started talking. And then I lived in Chicago, she lived in Michigan and she came and we went to brunch. And I brought a friend because I was like, what a person. I know.

You did not. I know. You did not. I know. I know. So bad. It was so bad. It was so bad.

It was so bad. It was so bad. It was so bad. It was so bad. It was so bad. It was so bad. It was so bad. It was so bad. It was so bad. It was so bad. to this day. Ah! Ah! But my friend left and then we went to coffee after the brunch and I was like, okay, this is, this is a... Did you know, like that day, did you, or was it a slow burn or was it like... It was slow because she, so she was coming out of a marriage and she had two kids who were like five and seven at the time. So I certainly wasn't rushing to get into that. You're like, call me when they're 18. I still like call me when they're 18.

One is 16 and I'm like, two more years, we get your ass out of here. He's actually like really lovely, but I still am like tick tock kids. Our real life is good. We understand. Soon as you guys leave. So it was it forced us to be slow. Like I didn't meet the kids for a year. We really took our time and we lived in different places. So it was good that we really took our time and we lived in different places. So it was good that we really took our time.

And I also was really cognizant of, you gotta do your relationship grieving, you gotta do all, I needed her to do all of her stuff and make sure that she was on board. And it was good, We took a long time. And then I was like, oh, your health insurance has been to the moon. I'm moving to Michigan.

Are you done? Are you done with your green thing? Of course. Get the you all. Let's get you. Yeah. Yeah. So what is your life like now? In Michigan, you've got the two kids.

You do not consider yourself a step parents. I don't. I consider myself an adjacent adult who can pay for things and drive to things. My stepkids are great. They're really great. They're funny. And they're like charming. They're all the stuff you want. They've always been good kids. The problem, I shouldn't even say it's a problem. It's me, I am not parental, I am not unconditional. I'm very like, oh, you didn't watch that play after all the money I spent that you know what I mean? Like the worst, the worst things that you,

like you know how like when you're a kid, you're like, man, when I'm old and I'm around kids, I'm gonna be so cool. Like, I'm not, I have to stop myself from being like, do you know how much that chair that you're standing up on costs? And I don't say it, but I feel in my soul that I wanna say it.

So, I don't know. It's so refreshing that you're telling the truth about this. Thank you. You know, I don't know how parents say it. So. I don't know. It's so refreshing that you're telling the truth about this. Thank you. You know, I don't know how parents do it. There was a reason I didn't have kids because I knew that I would just be the worst version. Like I'd buy the kid everything and do all the stuff

and I'm sure I would teach it to read, but I also would be like, I'm taking that iPad if you don't do exactly what I say right now. So I don't think of myself as a step parent because I don't like tell them what to do. Parent. I don't.

Yeah, I don't parent. I don't tell them what to do. I don't say you should study this. Like we hang out, we watch movies. I'm like they're cool and who likes that's when they're wrong. It's great. Okay, one of my favorite things that you write about is your belief in not FOMO, but JOMO,

not the fear of missing out, but the joy of missing out but the joy of missing out. Okay. And I feel like especially, you know, activities you said you have finally learned that no one else is ever having a better time than you are, like everything sucks everywhere. Everyone is right. I would disagree. I mean, you are a person who, I mean, I know you love to be in the mix.

You love to go to see us. You love to be there. You love to talk to people. I am in all of a person like you. But not I would never want to be that or you. Exactly. I've been making it. Because the mix is doing it, but I never. No, the mix is the thing that should be avoided. Yes. The mix. Yes. Okay. But it's not that it's just the joy of missing out on the event.

You have taught us about the joy of missing out on having a take on fucking everything. Okay. This is one of my favorite, so Sam's talking about or writing about the idea that she's supposed to have an opinion or take on every single thing that happens in the world. And this is one of my favorite that ever was said. One of the reasons I give a lot of disclaimers is because we give so much weight to what people say, who maybe we should not be listening to. I do want to remind people, don't ask me about the news, I don't watch the news.

I haven't read a history books since 1997. I am keenly aware of what I know and what I don't know. One of the things I don't know is anything smart or important that needs to be told to other people. Let's just take a moment with that. It's true. It's true. We live in this time of like racing to get your take out.

And I am always considering the source. And the source is rarely a person who is smart or thoughtful or. You know what I mean? Every time I see an insult graphic I'm like who said that? Where'd they go to school? What's their qualification? I shut the fuck up. I just don't I am not interested in anything like regular people think they know about big things. You ate at a breakfast place I was terrible. Tell me about that. I don't want to hear their take on global politics or whatever. Let's leave that to the expert.

It's so funny. If you can prove to me that you read a book on the subject that you are pontificating on, then maybe I'll listen, I probably won't, but maybe. I'm just this thing, we're like, because someone said it loud, we gotta listen is, Marcus to me, I don't know anything. I can tell you I had a Starbucks this morning, that was delicious, You could believe that.

I went to high school in like 40 years ago. I held him. I'm 42. However many years ago, I graduated 17. Someone else was, I'm not even smart enough to do the math to tell you. 1998. 1998.

But I graduated high school. You're class in 98. Don't listen to any saying I say that I saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that.

I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. I'm saying that. that is an experience on this giant world has helped so many of us just find the absurd to make

the next five minutes a little bit more tolerable. That's what you do for all of us. And what she just said though is so profound about consider the stores. Like that is actually really important. We take everybody's word at face value. It's like, oh, this thing was written on my Twitter feed. I say shit to you sometimes and you're like, who wrote that? And I'm like, I don't know. We're all susceptible of believing everything we hear and read. Like, so I love that. But I think the reverse is also equally important that in this age where everyone is called to be an individual expert on myriad things happening in the world that it is okay to be a listener. Yes.

Yes. Not everyone needs to be speaking all the time. It is okay to take your moment and learn your thing and just be a receiver as opposed to a distributor of news. So smart. Now that is it. Just listen, shut up and listen. Is this?

Oh, that's our next straight thing. Yes. The less sophisticated way of doing that. Shut the fuck up and listen. And with that, we can do hard things, fuck up. I'm like, and with that, we can do hard things, love bugs, like shut the fuck up. We will see you next time. And we can do hard things, Sam Arby.

Thank you for this hour and thank you for who you are in the world. Thank you for having me, what a joy. I'm glad I didn't miss out on this. Yeah. Also next right thing. Find one person to share your lava with. Oh, this is just find one.

We only need one. You can have friends with all the belt buckles you need. The one for the lot. Ha, ha, ha. I love this so much. This was so great. You go hi. I love you.

this so much. This was so awesome. You go higher. I love you. I give you Tish Melton and Brandy Carlisle. I walked through a fire I came out the other side. I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe that I'm the one for me, and because I'm mine, I walk the line. Cause we're adventurous and heartbreak, so mad. A final destination, and a plan, Destination You stopped asking directions Some places they've never been To be loved we need to be known

We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache I hid rock bottom, it felt like a brand new star I'm finally fine. Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on map A final destination with light

We stopped asking directions So places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives spring We can do a hard thing This perfect, cheruous and heartbreak's on my way Might get lost, but we're only in that

Stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be loved. We need to be long, we'll finally find our way back on and through the joy and pain that our lives bring. We can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios.

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