We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - How to Survive Your 20s, Abby On Bonus Parenting & IS Anyone TRULY Toxic?

Episode Date: April 11, 2024

298. How to Survive Your 20s, Abby On Bonus Parenting & IS Anyone TRULY Toxic? Amanda, Glennon and Abby give an update about things they’re thinking about including: Glennon’s favorite memes, Amanda’s realization about leadership in her family, and Abby’s exhaustion turned to joy. Plus, we answer questions from the Pod Squad on surviving your 20s, and how to navigate bonus parenthood. Discover:  -The simple, three-step process that revolutionized the way Amanda thinks about leadership and parenting;  -Abby’s heartfelt advice to a Pod Squader on how to navigate her 20s & why need ALL need it, no matter our age; -Insight into Abby’s journey as a mother & why being in your kid’s memories is everything;  -Glennon’s surprising take on labeling people as “toxic” and what to do instead.  To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Well hello friends. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. How are you two? I'm good. That was unconvincing. Yeah. How are you, Sissy? I am, I think, actually good. I mean, I don't know that I am good. I think things are going fine.

Okay. I am excited because I have something that I want to talk about. Okay, wonderful. Since no one asked me how I am, I'll just tell you that I saw this meme the other day, and it was this guinea pig driving a plastic pink convertible, and it just said, the horrors persist, but so do I. And that is my new answer when someone says, how are you? I think that's a good answer. The horrors persist, but so do I. And also, one other idea is that I saw on another meme

that there is a word, no, a saying in Norway when people say, how are you? You say, standing and not crying. I actually was just, as I said that, I'm like, actually that wouldn't work for me. I would say standing and not crying. Mmm. That's good. I actually was just, as I said that, I'm like, actually that wouldn't work for me. I'm rarely standing. Yeah, always crying.

And often sitting and occasionally crying. Okay, so anyway. Wait, wait, wait. We have to explain the other meme that you and Emma loved so much at dinner last night. Oh my gosh. Okay. Pod Squad, I'm just telling you

that if we were on a group gosh! Okay, Pod Squad, I'm just telling you that if we were on a group text with the whole Pod Squad, you would love what I sent. I collect memes throughout the day that make me happy. Okay, there's this meme and it has a picture of an island and it's labeled Island. And then there's the water next to the island. And it says, is not land. Is land? Is land? Is not land.

Is not land. This blew my mind. Wait, island is is land? Is land. I'm writing it out to look. Is land? Is not land. That's how it's spelled. I-S-L-A-N-T. I'm writing it out to look. Is land? Is not land. That's how it's spelled.

I-S-L-A-N-T. I said it to everyone. Is land. I said it to Liz Gilbert. I was like, Island. Is land. Is not land. Oh my God.

So it's like imagining the origin of that word is like you're in a boat, you're going, you're days, it's weeks, it's months, it's, and then you see something in the distance and they say, what is the distance and they say, what is that? And they say, is land. And then I just need to show you one more thing. Okay, you know my girl Virginia Woolf, okay? Just feeling her always, all right? This is a note she sent to her friend Ethel Smith on the 10th of February 1933. Sorry, I was so glum. I'm in a cursed mood and can't bear the human face.

So put off coming here. I advise you as long as possible. Perhaps by the end of the week, I shall be thawed. God knows. Virginia Woolf. Now that is how you answer a text that says, can I come over? I feel like we need a whole episode of like how to say no, how to decline things, how to just say it in a real way.

And I feel like maybe we need to lead with that Virginia Woolf thing. Yes. It's so much better than coming up with some shitty excuse like, I'm so busy. I can't stand the human form. That's a better way of doing it. I can't stand the human form. I can't bear the human face. I'm in a cursed mood. I feel like you two have just made me happier.

Oh. Your joy has just made me a happier person. So thank you. Oh. Well, that's good because I want to talk about plane crashes. Oh, shit. OK. Go ahead. OK. It happens to talk about plane crashes. Oh, shit. Okay. Go ahead.

Okay. It happens to be about plane crashes, but it's really, I think, about how to not crash your plane and your relationship and your family and probably your business too. Okay. So it's metaphorical, I'm hoping. Yeah. Because if not, I might suggest... No, you have to sit through the literal to get to the metaphorical because it's really something. So I've been reading Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers and there's this part in it where

he talks about the anomaly of commercial airline crashes. And let me just tell you real quick, you'll be able to get through it, Glenn. It's not that bad. Okay, because I already don't like this. I'd rather be on an Iceland and if it's going to crash crash let's hope it crashes on an Iceland and not an Island. And not an Is-not-land. Okay listen so in commercial airlines they always have in the cockpit a pilot and a first officer and they split the duties equally. They're both qualified to do the plane etc etc cetera, et cetera. Okay, but they found out that crashes are much more likely

to happen when the pilot, not the first officer, is flying the plane, and much less likely to happen when the first officer is flying the plane. This means that flights are significantly safer if the least experienced person is operating the plane. Not the pilot, but the first officer. This is weird, right? Very weird. Okay. The reason is because when they went back and listened to all the audio on all of these crashes, which used to be much more prevalent than it is now,

the reason is because the less experienced lower ranking person is much less likely than the higher ranking person to feel empowered to say what they observe and what they notice directly. So they listen to these black boxes and they hear over and over about how if the co-pilot is watching the pilot, the higher ranking pilot operate the plane,

and they see errors and they see problems and they see looming crises, they don't feel like they can say them. So they're just as likely to see the problems. So like it's not the more experienced pilot sees the problems and tells the co-pilot to do it. They both see them, but it is their method of communicating them

that is dramatically different. So whereas the pilots who were not operating the plane would state clearly exactly what they saw. So they'd be saying things like too much ice, de-ice the plane before you take off. Direct, I see it, I'm naming it, I'm telling you what to do. The first officer would say things like, looks like more ice than usual.

Looks like, so in the stress of those moments in with everything going on, it was the culture of inability to say what you see to someone who is supposed to have a greater rank than you. Yeah. And that fear of naming that and the fear of offending. Wow. Okay. Wow.

So this is now like rocking my world. And they now have, because this was so well researched, now every major airline has this like standard procedures that they require junior officers to go through whenever they see a problem. So it isn't up to like your comfort level. It isn't up to what if you think that guy's going to be mad, if you think whatever. So they have to say their first level is captain I'm concerned about. If they don't respond, it's captain I'm uncomfortable with, then it's captain I believe the situation

is unsafe. And then they are required to take over the plane if they escalated through all of that and it doesn't work. And this protocol of being able to say what you see and name the problems that you see is what many experts believe more than any of the technological advances, what has contributed to the dramatic decline in crashes. Wow. Simple freaking communication and ability to enter into a potentially conflict arising situation.

So the person with less perceived power having the confidence and clarity to say with authority what they see even in the midst of a power differential. But it's a system that they feel safe inside. Yes. So they're like, the system is set up that they can say the things and there is a protocol.

And they have to. Yeah. They have to, it isn't up to their judgment. And so this is like, okay, conflict avoidance is fatal. Whether it is you're flying a plane or it is your family or your business culture, if folks are afraid to speak up and name the problems that they see,

you will crash your plane and you will that they see, you will crash your plane and you will crash your family and you will crash your relationship. Because this is something, like this happened between John and I. We were handling something with my son in a certain way and I started to be like, I don't know if this is right. I don't know. And I was having all these second thoughts. And after like a week, I go and talk to him

and I'm like, oh my God, I'm really stressed about this. I think we might be messing this up. And he says to me, yes, I have known that for a long time. I have thought that for a long time. So stop there. That's like three quarters the way through a flight, the head pilot being like, damn, it feels like there's ice on these wings.

And the co-pilot going, yeah, I did notice that from the very beginning. Before we took off. Before we took off. I was just scared to say anything. And I became so enraged. Like the level of betrayal upon hearing that, I was like, it was exactly right. It was as if like a co-pilot was about to let me fly into the side of a mountain, knowing that and seeing that.

But that's what it was. That's what all of this is. It's like, if you have a culture where you feel like that person knows what they're doing, that person's gonna do what they're gonna do no matter what, that person is like the boss of what they're doing. That person's gonna do what they're gonna do no matter what. That person is like the boss of this area of life. And the other person doesn't feel like

they're in a position to be able to say something or even if they say something, it will be responded to. That's what happens. It's crazy. Do you believe that your system inside of your family was set up in a way where like you as the pilot, if he as the co-pilot in this situation, had said something that you would have honored that or was the culture at that point such that

you had also helped create the environment where he felt nervous to say what he saw? Yes, I think I absolutely contributed to that environment. And then I think it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Right. Because like the more I did it, the more it became my lane, the more I was like, no, that's not a good idea. We're gonna do it this way.

The more that became solidified in, I am the captain of this area. You only speak up if it's very dire. That is truly how I felt. I was like, you would let us crash into a mountain without saying something. And since then, me saying, no, I need you to say I am concerned about, I need you to say I'm uncomfortable with. I need you because I can't be flying this plane by myself. I need what you see. I can only see so much. You please see the things and say the things.

It's so much better now. But when I read that study, I was like, that's it! That's what we're, that's what was happening. But think about it, businesses, where it's like the boss is about to do something really not good but then these other people know it. If you've created a culture as a boss where the people that work for you actually can't work for you. Yeah.

Exactly. Because they actually can't say the things that they need to say to prevent you from making a mistake then you actually don't have people working for you. No. Yeah. Can I just say one thing sister? I don't know how this is kind of gone in your marriage, but I think one thing that could probably be helpful for John, because it would be one thing if we were to tell this first officer, you have to say something, right? Like when all these planes were going down, but they didn't do it that way.

They put in place these protocols of mechanisms that you then go to this. So maybe it would be good for you and John to create what that protocol looks like in the future as to how he can approach you because maybe it's working perfectly. I have no idea, but I bet that there's still some hesitancy inside of him. And so if you guys can collectively create that one, two, three step plan so that you're both actually flying the plane and he has to talk to you and you have to talk to him. I think that that's probably a mechanism of crashing fewer planes. And a different leadership model. Truly leadership, the best leadership is creating

the best leadership is creating cultures of dissent. The best leadership is creating spaces where, not that everyone's deferring, but that everyone feels completely empowered to constantly say what they see, even if it's gonna rock the boat, because that's how you don't run into an iceberg. Well, the other way of saying that too is that everyone's equally responsible.

Like, I am responsible for the outcomes. I am not just responsible for doing what I'm told to do. If everyone in a culture, whether it's a business or a family or whatever, abdicates that responsibility and just thinks they're just supposed to, quote-unquote, get their job done and do what the boss says, that is a very different thing than I'm responsible for the outcomes in this business, in this family, and whatever. And so I have to say whatever needs to be said to get the outcome that I believe is best. That's good.

Yeah, that is true. And I think what Abby's saying is so important about creating the systems because there still is in every situation some sort of power imbalance. So you can feel as responsible as you want, but if you know that the culture of your family or your marriage or your friend group or your company is that if you say the thing you're going to be shamed or you're going to be dismissed or you're going to be punished or you're going to be whatever, then you are also responsible for your own wellbeing inside of that system. So you're not going to feel as connected to the outcome responsibility. So I don't know, I think that's a way of getting the actual outcome to be the North Star as opposed to anybody's ego.

Yeah. Well, I think with us, it just started with, I don't want to be doing this by myself. I don't want to be the only pilot on this thing. Like I'm scared. Yep. I'm fucking it up. I don't see what I don't see. You see things that I don't see. I need you

in here a lot." And that was like news to him because I had just been flying and flying and flying it, you know? But I like the protocol. Are you always the pilot in parenting with him as the co-pilot? Because how do you figure that out too? In these structures, you don't actually need a pilot and co-pilot? Because how do you figure that out too? In these structures, you don't actually need a pilot and co-pilot. Like you could have two equal pilots that are equally responsible for identifying

the problems when they are not behind the wheel. It's not predicated on that. And I think it just depends on the lane. If it's something that John has a lot of similarities with the kids on, he will go in because he has a lived experience that he just has more insight into it than I do and he'll take the lead on that and sports stuff a lot and things like that. But I like the model of what they use in the airlines. The first one is I'm concerned about.

It's never you're doing it wrong. Like first is I'm concerned about, second is I'm uncomfortable with. Third is I believe the situation is unsafe. And then you take over. You take the reins. And so if you feel like something's happening in your family you're concerned about and you're unheard.

If you say you're uncomfortable with it and you're unheard, if you think it is unsafe, it is not a good environment for your kids or your family or whatever, then you just have to jump in and like save us from a poor decision. Yeah, that's good. So good. It's really good.

Alright, you want to hear from some pod squatters? I do. Let's hear from sweet Emma. Hi Glenn and Avian sister. I'm Emma, she her. I'm 21. I'm a senior in college. And my question is, number one, I love the pod. This has been an absolute lifeline. It's what me and my mom talk about and have the best conversations over,

and me and my friends. But my question for you guys is, how the fuck do you survive your 20s? Everyone tries to make it sound like this is supposed to be the most carefree and joyous time of my life, but I'm just really scared. And me and my friends sometimes remind ourselves we're like, it's okay,

Glennon was still an alcoholic right now, like we have time. But I would love, love, love, you guys all were on such different paths during this time in your life. And I would love to love, love you guys all were on such different paths during this time in your life. And I would love to hear about how you made it through and what you'd want to tell your 20 year old self.

And if you guys could do that on an episode, I would really appreciate listening to that. And I think so would so many of your younger listeners who are just trying to figure this out and love the warm mothering energy of you guys. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. I of you guys. So thank you, thank you, thank you. Bye. I love you guys. Emma, I just want you to know before we get started answering your sweet question that the way that this question of yours was transcribed to me as I'm reading it right now, it says,

Hi, Glenn and Abby and sister. I'm Emma. I'm 21. I'm a senior in college, and my question's this. Number one, I love the pot. This has been an absolute lifeline. So I thought that your whole question was about pot and how it's been a lifeline and maybe is that okay in your 20s? And I mean, Glennon was an alcoholic, so what's so wrong with the pot? And to that, before we get started answering you sincerely,

I want you to know that I think it's just fine, Emma, if the pot is a lifeline for you in your 20s. We do what we have to do in our 20s. Every time I go visit my kid's school or I'm on a college campus, which we're doing a lot more now for what's coming with our kids, all I do is look at 20 year olds

and just feel so tired for them. That's how I feel. I tell Abby this all the time. I look at them and I think, I feel so tired for you because it's so stressful. And the fact that anyone in their right mind would say to a 20 year old, this is supposed to be the best time of your life.

What a horrible, horrible thing to say. Mm-hmm. That is awful. No, thank you. The 20s... Also, Emma, I think one thing you might be doing that you don't have to be doing is thinking. Like the 20s aren't for worrying or like self-analyzing.

The 20s are for just like making all the mistakes so that you can later have something upon which to reflect. Right? What do you think you guys about sweet Emma? I am, she used the word carefree. I'm supposed to be carefree. And I think that that is a word that people use. And I honestly, I'd like to know whether anyone,

I have never been carefree a day in my life. Is that a thing that- Why would anyone want to be free of caring? I actually don't understand that word. I think that when people say, when people who are not 20 are saying, looking back and saying, oh, my 20s were so carefree, I think what they are signaling is their nostalgia

for a time when they could have been more self-centered, but probably weren't. You know? It's like a retroactive, I could have been that, but I don't think that anyone actually ever was. I think we've all just missed that part of our lives and we're looking back and we're like, don't do what we did. Don't waste it.

Which you can't do anyway. No one is carefree. I just speak for myself. Never. Not at the height of my responsibility or the lowest point of my responsibility was ever carefree. Yeah. But I do think Emma could, and if I'm looking back, what I would have told myself in my 20s was to cultivate a life

that is self-centered. And I think it's absolutely insane that self-centered is a derogatory term. I mean, on what else should we be centered? Like it's, it's crazy, but it is the one time of your life, maybe before you. Have these other things that you opt into that make you mutually dependent where you really can be self-centered. You can figure out what do I like and what do I not like? What brings me joy? What does it?

What kills my life force? What invigorates my life force? And it doesn't mean things only for yourself. If you're doing things with your friends, should feel self-centered. Because it should be building you up and making you feel good. If it doesn't feel self-centered,

then you need to look at those relationships. But it's just, I would have made my life self-centered during that time, because at other times, you have less opportunity to do that. Yeah, you would have found like who the I is before the I makes all these commitments to other people. I sent this text, I'm gonna find it right now, to my friend Alex yesterday. Alex texted and she

said, I want to see you. I can come to you tomorrow or you can come to me if you need a change of scenery. She said, also, if you'd like a change of scenery, you're welcome to come here. I said, I'd actually really, really like a change of scenery, but I had kids before I thought life through well. So I have to say this. I mean, honestly, I was only half kidding about that. It's like, I'm so glad. Everybody knows I'm so glad that they're here. Great. But holy shit, maybe I should have thought a few things through. Just take it slow. Like I just feel like maybe no one should be allowed to get married till they're after 40. Everyone should only be allowed to have children when they're 50.

Just Emma, Emma, take your time. I just have something to say. I think it is like the hardest to be 21 is such a weird and hard age because you're still in some ways attached to your family and you need them for maybe it's financial support or emotional support. I mean, the fact that you're listening to this podcast tells me something about you, Emma, that you are curious to go

and you're capable of going into the hard and thinking about the hard. One thing I think that we can get into a better habit of, especially as older 40, 50 year old women who have children, is we don't have to tell our kids that the 20s and 30s are the hardest times of our life, just because they were the hardest times of our lives. Just because we ran into difficult times

during that time for us. It might be totally different for you, Emma. And having the mentality of accepting difficulty when it comes is beautiful. But also in your 20s, I think it's really important that you aren't jaded yet. When you get older, you experience difficulties and when they come and they show up,

you will let that in and you will learn from those moments what you need to learn, but you are new. Like you're like a fresh, like new horse that just stood up for the first time and you're like trying to figure out the world and it is not easy to figure out, but you don't have to figure it all out in your 20s. Or, guess what? I am still learning in my 40s what is happening here. And the truth is,

nobody knows. Nobody knows what's happening so try to find the most amount of joy you can. Yes, that's good. That is good. Nobody knows what they're doing ever. Yeah, what sister said is so true. I think it's so important that like, we get so focused on getting on the rat wheel. The hamster wheel, but rat race. Rat race, hamster wheel.

Yeah, sorry. The hamster wheel. The hamster race I like. And I don't know, it's like, you're just in this beautiful time where you can opt not to do that right now. Because you don't have an expectation of a way you want to actually live.

Because you've been stuck in a dorm for what? Two, three, four years. Like, get as many roommates as you possibly can. I truly believe this. Get as many roommates as you possibly can. Live in a very small apartment. Spend the least amount of money and work hard at figuring out what you like about yourself and about what you like about life and what you want to spend your time doing. Don't be so obsessed with figuring out a career path. I think it's fucking insane that we do this to our college

students. Like you need to have your life mission figured out by 21, 22. No, the world is so different now than it was 40 years ago. You get to decide and you get to change your mind more than you ever could before. So I don't know. I believe that you can choose to walk into every new decade of your life with optimism and curiosity, rather than like dread. Yeah. And I think if I could add something, it would be, I don't think that each decade, there's anything that you're supposed to be doing.

Yes. I think that the only thing that has maybe ruined some of my experiences of life is not the mistakes. It's not the tragedies even. It's not the losses. It's the thinking that I should be doing something else. It's thinking that I'm supposed to be this or that or that. It's what we come back to over and over again in this pod,

which is that the thing that ruins our experiences is the picture in our head of how things are supposed to be. This constant gap between what I'm experiencing right now and this idea of what it's supposed to be. So Emma, I think the only thing that will mess up your 20s is no decision you make, no path you take or don't. But the idea that you're supposed to be somewhere else. Yeah. What's supposed to happen to you, Emma, it's like that Javis line, which I will leave you with.

It's this place where you are, God circled it on a map for you. Like right now, where you are, what you're doing, if you're doing nothing, if you're sitting on a couch and have nothing, it's that Emma. Where you are right now is not a mistake. It's where you are meant to be. And then where you are tomorrow will be that and where you are in your 30s will be that and where you are in your 40s will be that. Follow love, follow your curiosity, follow that knowing that leads you to the

next right thing. And then just know that where you are is exactly where you're supposed to be. And there is no better life. There is just your life, Emma. So good. All right. Let's hear from Dominique. Hi, Glennon, Sister Anne, Abby. My name is Dominique. This question is mostly for Abby. I recently transitioned into a family with a 10-year-old and a 17-year-old, and I don't have any kids. And it's been so amazing and wonderful, but also really vulnerable and kind of scary. I'm finding myself a little nervous about leading and correcting the kids because I'm afraid of being mean and you know you are hardwired to have this love for your parents

no matter what but it's not there for a bonus parent so I'm a little anxious about it and just losing their love even if I guide them in the most gentle way I can. I'm also finding myself a bit jealous about hearing about their milestones growing up and the things I missed out on because I love them so much. And I don't want to just hear about the challenges, but also the joys too. So it's not all negative. I listen to you guys all the time and I feel like we're friends even though you guys don't know me. Thank you so much for everything. And I hope you guys have a beautiful day. Bye. Aw, Dominique. I love this because so much of what you're feeling and the way you've described it is exactly how I felt

when I walked into Glennon's family. Now my family. I remember getting that jolt, that pang in my stomach. And still to this day, this doesn't go away. Whenever they would talk about times when they were babies, I always ask what their birthdays were like, what happened at the hospital. And it always makes me feel like this kind of FOMO,

sorrow that I wasn't there to experience it. What I would say is early days, I honestly, I think I tried to buy their love at first. I mean, we were going through a Starbucks drive-through and the kids pulling up to the drive-through, I said, what do you guys want? And they said, I want a cake pop. And I said, oh, okay, great.

And so I turned to order and I said, I would like a cake pop and the person on the other had said, how many? And I just said, all of them. And Glennon looks at me, she's like, no, like what do you know? We don't do that. Like we don't even do cake pops.

I was like, this is well, not ballsy, Julie, Fadi says boobsy. This is boobsy of them to even be asking this. They know we are in a transition time to be even asking for a cake pop. And then Abby says, all of them. But I learned then that you can't really buy love. And it's just time.

It really does take time for them to understand that you aren't going anywhere, that you are capable of handling all of what they throw at you. Because sometimes it's not gonna all be, you know, perfect and beautiful. Sometimes it's gonna be hard. Sometimes they're gonna be mad at you

and you still have to carry and hold their love. And then eventually what happens is that they realize that you are choosing to love them. Mm-hmm. Tish said to us one time, I mean, what was that question? We were playing a card game that had questions on it, and the question said, it was Tish and the rest of us, and the question said,

who is the person that's taught you most about love? Yeah. And, oh, God, it makes me cry every time I think about it. Here she goes, you guys. Fuck. I mean, Tish goes into this whole story about, you know, her mom and dad, they have to love her. And I choose to love her. And it was like the most beautiful,

it was like the most touching thing ever. And then I'll leave you with this last story. Recently, and this will go back to like, just keep with it. You just gotta, don't leave, stay. Because if you stay, then their memories will have you in it. And so recently over the holidays, Tish was explaining some sort of memory that she had.

And I mean, I almost like broke out into complete, I just almost fell apart because I was in her memories. I made it. And I know that as they get older, the memories that they probably will have been sharing all of these years from their really young memory life, that might fade away a little bit. But I just felt, I mean, memories are so much of what we have in the experience of our people. We're not spending 24 hours in a day with every person in our life, especially our kids. And then they grew up and they leave. But for Tish to like explain this time of her life and to also have me have been there.

And then Abby said this, or I don't even remember the exact story. Do you remember it? Mm-mm. We have great memories. Yeah, exactly. But I just like, I turned to Glennon and my head, tears in my eyes,

and I was just like, I'm in her memory bank now. I'm a part of her past. So Dominique, I don't have an answer to the hardship and also the beauty that you are entering in and you are choosing to be a part of. But I do think that one day the 10 year old and the 17 year old, what they will, especially at their age, what they will know is that you are there. You are a presence. And eventually that presence is a part of them. And the presence is a part of them and the presence is a part of their memory.

And I don't know, maybe those few stories could offer some sort of something. It's beautiful, babe. That's it, sorry. Don't ever be sorry. I just can't not cry when I think about it. Cause you're a part of somebody's memory. Do you have any idea how important that is?

Like I literally never thought about it till this moment. I know because like both of your children that you birthed, you are the solar system of their memory. You were the first people they touched. And to have, it's like the greatest gift is to be a part of somebody's memory. It's like the permanent record. Yes. It's like the permanent record. Yes. And like especially for somebody who joins into a family, there's a huge gap and it takes so much time

and it's so hard. Like it's hard to sit at the first Christmas family dinner and to hear about all of the past Christmases because that's what you do in traditions. You talk about past Christmas and, oh, remember that one time? That is what kind of encapsulates so much of the conversation inside of families is the past.

And it's hard to get to a place where you just kind of have to swallow all of the past and you not being in that record. You just have to stay long enough to become part of the record. Oh God. Yeah, it's not easy, but it's worth it because my God, when that child had me a part of her record, I just was, and I know that I am.

Before this, I knew that I was a part of the record, but the first time she said it out loud, I was like, Oh, I'm in there. I'm in. It reminds me of that Walt Whitman quote. I have it on a sign in my house and it says, we were together. I forget the rest. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And you know, those are real tears. Yeah. Don't real tears. Yeah. Don't be annoyed with yourself. I mean, that's amazing.

I'm not. I'm annoyed with you. For pointing that out. Also, Dominique, I would say there's probably one or the other that's harder. Usually the 10 year old or the 17 year old that's harder on you. And I would just say for the back of your mind, don't count out the hard ones. Because the hard ones, what they are doing is they are struggling with some idea of loyalty that they can't figure out. And those are the ones who value loyalty. And the harder it is at the beginning, the harder those guys fall.

Tish was the hard one, man. She would be okay with us saying that. She was hard and it was because of her fierce idea of right and wrong and loyalty and love, really. And so when you are like water and you just continuously and gently show up, those ones are the ones who will be yours forever eventually. So that's all I wanted to add. Yep. Why don't we end with a pod squatter? Let's do it. My name is Kim. I was calling to thank you guys. The episode that wasn't was an opportunity for me to look at a dynamic in my life in my own workplace that was not healthy for me and allowed me to move away from language of that's just toxic bullshit, blah, blah, blah, too. It's toxic for me. And while I found another job, I quit that job and I only have two weeks left.

I got to get away from a boss that was not nice. And this job that I'm about to start is actually, I think, a better fit for me. And actually, it feels like you guys have just been with me all along the way. So I just wanted to say thank you and I love you. Oh God, all right, bye. Oh God, Kim. Yeah. Oh God.

I feel that so much. Oh God, here I go again. Here I go again on my own. She is going on her own. I love that. She said I moved from language that's just toxic bullshit, blah, blah, blah, to that's toxic for me. I love that.

That's so good because it's almost like we were talking about this in the Dr. Ford episode, like just because something is commonplace or normal doesn't mean it's okay. And there's so much toxic bullshit everywhere that it feels almost strange or audacious. To do anything with it other than just to be like, oh, that's the same bullshit everywhere, blah, blah, blah. But to say like, no, it doesn't matter that that's normal or y'all think it's normal or it doesn't matter

if I'm even odd for thinking that that is damaging, but like that is toxic for me and that's all I need to know. Like that is damaging for me. I don't know, thank you to that. And it's taking responsibility is what I love about it don't know. Thank you to that. And it's taking responsibility is what I love about it. Like we were just talking about this the other night. I was like, I need different language.

Everybody calls everybody toxic now. Like that person's toxic, that person's toxic. And like, sure, I'm sure that's true. But also, first of all, it's a very sweeping, we don't know what the hell that means most of the time, right? So first of all, it's a very sweeping, we don't know what the hell that means most of the time, right? And also it feels so kind of aggressive to label and dismiss an entire human being as one thing.

For me, it's really important to get away from that. What the hell do I know? I don't want to say a person is toxic. And I know that I want to have complete self-determination about what I experience as toxic. So it's not like you're toxic, I'm not. It's like, there's some kind of chemical, like if toxicity is like a chemical, there's some kind of chemical reaction

between the two of us right now that feels toxic. So I have to go. It's likely not all you. It's not all me. There's just some kind of reaction between us that isn't feeding me. It's not healthy for me right now. It doesn't make me feel free.

It doesn't make me feel big and safe and capable or whatever you need to feel. So it's a double thing. It's not dismissing another person as completely toxic and saying it's all you, but it is claiming the right, the power to label a situation as toxic and saying, I'm out. Right?

And to see your role in it, it's like if everything is puzzle pieces, it's like my little puzzle piece doesn't work with your little puzzle piece. Exactly. And it's more honest, truly, because to everyone else in that company, or to half the people in that company, they might be like, I'm fine. And then you lose the desire afterwards to constantly be proving that that other person's toxic. To justify your decision. Yes, you go around with the whole...

Confirmation that bias. I do it all the time. Every time I make a decision about a person or a situation, I can't just accept that I'm allowed to do that. So I have to canvas the neighborhood and make sure everybody agrees with my decision by presenting the facts about that person. And instead it's like, oh no, guess what? We're grownups. We get to decide situationally. Maybe it's not you, maybe it's not me, maybe it's us. Yeah, that's good. So Kim, thank you for helping us with that. You can do hard things. Oh god. Good luck. Oh god. So exciting. We are still with you. Let us know how the new job goes.

That's so exciting. Yes. That's right. And we're going to do these. We just love talking to you guys so much. You're so brilliant and wonderful. And we love hearing from you. So we will do some more Q&As coming up.

And in the meantime, Emma, Kim, Dominique, we love you. Pod Squad, we love you. Go forth and do hard things. Softly. Easy. Bye. Kim, Dominique, we love you, Pod Squad, we love you. Go forth and do hard things, softly, easy. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds

to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey,

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We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise Berman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz. Also by Alison Schott and Dina Cabana. You