We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - INDIGO GIRLS AND MELISSA ETHERIDGE!!

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

Music icons, queer trailblazers, and our heroes—Indigo Girls and Melissa Etheridge—share the wisdom, humor, and heart that have carried them through decades of music and community. We talk about faith, the power of music to heal and connect, their advice for queer kids, and the lessons they’re learning from young activists. About Indigo Girls:  Across four decades, 16 studio albums, and over 15 million records sold, the Grammy-winning Indigo Girls – Emily Saliers and Amy Ray – continue to blaze the trail for generations of Queer artists in the mainstream.  Committed and uncompromising activists, Saliers and Ray work on issues like racial justice and reproductive rights, immigration reform, LGBTQ advocacy, education, death penalty reform, and Native American rights. Indigo Girls was the first of six consecutive Gold and/or Platinum-certified albums.Their latest record, Look Long, is a stirring and eclectic collection of songs that finds the duo reunited in the studio with their strongest backing band to date.  About Melissa:  Melissa Etheridge stormed onto the American rock scene in 1988 with the release of her critically acclaimed self-titled debut album. Etheridge hit her commercial and artistic stride with her fourth album, Yes I Am. The collection featured the massive hits, "I'm the Only One" and "Come to My Window," a searing song of longing that brought Etheridge her second Grammy Award for Best Female Rock Performance.  Known for her confessional lyrics and raspy, smoky vocals, Etheridge has remained one of America’s favorite female singers for more than two decades.  In June of 2020, Etheridge launched The Etheridge Foundation to support groundbreaking scientific research into effective new treatments for opioid use disorder.  Follow We Can Do Hard Things on: Youtube — @wecandohardthingsshow   Instagram — @wecandohardthings TikTok — @wecandohardthingshow

Across four decades, 16 studio albums and over 15 million records sold. The Grammy-winning Indigo Girls, Emily Saylars, and Amy Ray continue to blaze the trail for generations of queer artists in the mainstream. Committed and uncompromising activists, Sailors and Ray work on issues like racial justice and reproductive rights, immigration reform, LGBTQ advocacy, education, death penalty reform, and Native American rights. Indigo Girls was the first of six consecutive gold and or platinum-certified albums. Their latest record, Look Long, is a stirring and eclectic collection of songs that finds the duo reunited in the studio with their strongest backing band to date. Melissa Etheridge stormed on to the American rock scene in 1988 with the release of her critically acclaimed self-titled debut album.

Etheridge hit her commercial and artistic stride with her fourth album, Yes I Am. The collection featured the massive hits Everyone on Earth Nose. I'm the only one and come to my window. And that album brought home the Grammy Award for the best female rock performance. Known for her confessional lyrics and raspy, smoky vocals, Etheridge has remained one of America's favorite female singers for more than two decades. In June of 2020, Etheridge launched the Etheridge Foundation to support groundbreaking scientific research into effective new treatments for opioid use disorders.

We have them both here today. It's freaking so exciting. We went to their show last night. And P.S., yes, we are, tour. The Melissa, I mean, the Indigo Girls and Melissa Etheridge together. So good. And then they were just here. They were just here.

Enjoy. Amy and our, well, I'll speak for us both, but a little bit like Bulls and China shops when we meet people that we're excited about. You know, I love you. Oh, I mean, I'm sorry. They run away. Yes. They're like, whoa, those two.

It's okay. I know how that goes, because right now my heart is beating on my house. Are you checking your, this morning on the way here. You want to just give you a monitor? The important thing is that we remain calm. So that's what I'm doing. The Royal Wee means me. Yes, it means us.

You look so calm and thought I looked over. That would be completely calm. Look, she's always calm. If reincarnation is real, I just want to come back as this. Oh. That's an interesting thing. This, like, nervous system, this. Yeah, she doesn't get work at.

Well, you can't be a professional sports player without being that. That's right. That's what it takes. Training. Did you get nervous before games? It's different, isn't it? People say, do we get nervous? And nervous and excitement is very much the same thing.

It's the same exact thing. Physiologically, the physiological response is the exact same between nerves and excitement. So the way that psychologically, an athlete thinks about it, like when the commentator said, are you excited? Are you nervous? They're like, no, I'm excited. It's the exact same thing. Yeah. So it's like.

I didn't know that. But if you say to yourself, you're excited, it makes you less nervous. I mean, like, does it? That's what they say, but that's bullshit. I mean, I'm always excited about everything. in life. But I get nervous for certain shows and I just have a case of the nerves and I'll miss chords for the first three songs or something will happen. Like LA makes us nervous. L.A. Oh my God. L.A. is so hard to play.

Really? You did a great show last night. It was a great show. Yeah. But see, the Greek has massive spotlights. They're just huge and you really can't see most of the audience. All you can see is the crazy front row, which you usually just crazy people, which I love my front row. They're great. just crazy people. And all I could see was the lit-up exits. So I could see people leaving. And I'm like, do not look at the people leaving. Oh, my God.

Just play the show. So L.A. is just a real mind trip because I've spent years here. I came here 40 years ago and spent years dreaming and hoping. So you get on stage and I've just got this past of, oh, my God, you've always wanted to be, you know, and everyone's leaving. And I'm like, no, no, no. So this is the mind trip. They just had to pee.

Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. That's, oh, so much so. But that's, that's a real, you know, mind trip. It's a good mind trick, though, because, like, in every situation, we can either focus on the people who are leaving. Or the ones to be there. But you can have thousands of people like, I love you, I worship you. And you're like, some guys leaving up there. Oh, no. Yep. My wife used to, my wife's a very interesting woman. She used to, in the 80s, she drove a limo and she drove Liza Minnelly. No way. Totally. And she used to. say that once when Liza Minnelli played Carnegie Hall, that, you know, the place is going wild and stuff like this. And she said, yeah, but there's that one guy in back that didn't stand up. And then later, she sees the guy going out in a wheelchair. And she's like, fuck.

Oh, what a great story. Yeah, I gave away all my power to my assumption that this person didn't like me. And those assumptions are what can really hurt us. Our dear friend Andrew Gibson, who just passed. Oh, yeah. Biggie. They used to say, that their wellness check in every moment was, am I paying attention to who isn't loving me or who I love? Like in every moment, you can tell how well you are by what you're focused on the knot or the is. That's all your power.

Yeah. I don't know why it's so hard to remember that or live by it. I know. I guess it wasn't for them. Well, I think it's been set into us from the time when we were little. I mean, when you stand, there's a saying in the sports world that if you stand in front of a group of female little girl athletes and you say one of you was out there not working as hard as I know that you needed to be,

every single girl psychologically thinks the coach is talking about them. And you go in the exact same locker room to a male, speak to a male team, and every kid in that locker room thinks they're talking about somebody else. So there's something that psychologically happens when we're young, I think, that kind of predisposes us to believe that, oh, we are not wanted. So we're looking for the people leaving the stadium or going and hitting the exits. And if you're queer, there's all that.

Yes. History mixed into it. Yeah. Like, I don't know if you feel that way, Melissa. I'm very queer. Oh, yeah. Please don't ruin our lives by saying you no longer feel queer. Oh, God.

We can't take that. No, no, no. You can be definitely sure that that's never changing. But it's a bit of a trauma, you know? Yeah. Just the old language, the old voices. But I also grew up, I had a really great father figure, really great. He was a high school coach.

But my relationship with my mother was really contentious. She was having a hard time. She was like a hidden figure sort of computer scientist that didn't get the credit, got paid half of. So she was kind of a bitter woman. But I didn't understand all that at the time. I just thought she didn't like me because we always think it's about us. But my father was really great. And I think that maybe that sort of male role model in my life, I wasn't afraid of guys.

You know, and it really helped in my business because it was all guys. And, you know, so I think that might be a part of it. I don't know. That's interesting. Yeah, that is. What about you guys and men? There's the key. That's like something that you would have needed to ask yesterday so we had time to think about it.

No, I'm just kidding. In terms of men in my life, like, I love all my brothers-in-law, married to my sisters, and my parents stayed married, and to my mom passed, and my dad is a wonderful human, and so I've had a lot of good men in my life. And then in terms of, you know, like, in terms of the spectrum, like, I find men extremely attractive. So, yeah, sometimes I've, like, around a certain man or whatever, and I'm like, hmm. am I gay? But I know I am. I know I am. But I have a very, very vehement, vitriolic opposition to men who are toxic or take

too much space. Like, I just can't. And then in those moments, I'm like, I just want to be around women all the time because I don't experience that in the company of like-spirited women. So you feel this attraction towards men. Is it for the sake of, like, sexual attraction? or is it part of gender questioning? Because I have similar things.

I think men's bodies are beautiful. And I also think, obviously, women's bodies are beautiful. But it's in a way that I want to, like, be it. It's in a way that I feel like envy, like broad shoulders, muscles, ripped abs. That was a pro athlete. I'd never had rabs. Like, fuck. No, I don't want to be it.

You don't want to be it. Got it, got it, got it. Got it, got it, got it, got it. Cool. Yeah. Cool. That's interesting, though. This came up a conversation with Amy where I wrote the song when I was feeling sort of a wistfulness because I love country music and all the, we may have talked about this before, where the songs

were heteronormative, and I couldn't find my place in it. But you had said, Amy, like, younger, you were just the guy in your mind. I mean, I don't want to put words in how much describe it. So I never could do that. I was like, I don't fit in this. but Amy didn't have a problem Yeah It's interesting because we

For me growing up I felt this need not only internally But externally That I had to put myself in a certain box So when Glennon and I met It was actually really interesting because She was, we were friends And she was like

I think maybe I might be a little queer And I was like oh like we should take the Kinsey test You go online And That was a lot response? Were you scared? I was scared.

I was terrified. You all, I was in a hotel room in Mennonite country. Oh. And there was a big sampler that said, fear the Lord in all things. And then I've got Abby on the phone. And I was an evangelical Sunday school teacher. Yeah. So I'm fearing the Lord with my sampler.

And then Abby's trying to make me gay. I'm not trying to make you gay. I sent you a song. You guys might. Wait, you sent a song? What song? Drive. Drive.

I'm Melissa. Oh. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so good. That's very graphic. That is a great song. You sent that. I was like, let me know what you think. And she was like, oh, shit, that worked.

Was that how you flirted with her? Yeah, for sure. Send her a song. Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, the songs are very powerful. They can be. Yeah.

The reason why we're doing this in person right now is because, when I found out that you all were in town, I lost my mind and said, please tell them that we'd like them to come to our in-home studio. And then a little too late, Abby, reminded me that we don't in fact have an in-home studio. That's so cute. It's like we have a basement. Yeah. So here we are in our in-home studio that we created for you all. So we want to ask you all about creativity and songwriting. And like, where does it come from at first? Like, are you sitting in your house and you're like, a song starts bubbling up inside of you. It is a lyric. Is it a melody, which I'm not sure what a melody is? It's the harmony and the melody.

How does it begin? How do you win a game? It's hard to describe. It's something you really want to do, first of all. I mean, I know when I was 10 years old, and I grew up in the 60s and 70s. So I was in the middle of the singer-songwriter. It was Dylan and Joni Mitchell and these, Paul Simon and these great singer-songwriters. And I was just surrounded by music. My parents listened to music. They didn't play music, but they listened to it a lot. And my sister listened to the, you know, Led Zeppelin, the Rolling Stones. My parents had Mamas and Pappas. And it's just a really great mix of music. In the radio station, I grew up in Kansas. And the radio station played everything, one radio station, played everything. Tammy Wynette, to Marvin Gay, and to Tommy

James and Chondell's, which is a great mix of music. So I thought music was just music, you know, was everything. And I wanted to be part of that. And then you start drawing that to you. And first, you're copying, you're copying songs. You know, I was 11 and I didn't have Experio. You broke my heart. I did not have a broken heart yet. And you, you mimic it until you know, your early 20s, you really start having experiences. Then you study it and you study the greats and, you know, Ricky Lee Jones, why do these words, you know, why don't you use those words? And you get into that. So now, after we've done it for 40 years, 50 years, you know, higher. Yeah. You know, it's a long time. That's so amazing. I collect, as I go through my day,

I collect things that inspire me because if I want to be inspiring, I have to be inspired. So I find it in art. I find it in books, movies, other music, poetry. I love. I get a lot from poetry. And you're like, oh, why did that touch me? And then I look at that. And then I think about, okay, what do I want to say now?

And now that I've lived so much life, it's rich with things that have happened, and things that I want, the desires and pains. And so I can mind from that. I have my, on my phone, I've just got huge notes, just mine, just, you know, someone will say something, I'm like, oh, that sounds good, you know, that's cool, or I'll think something. Or you just then give yourself time in my 20s. Before I had kids, I was like, you know, writing all day long on my bed, you know,

you can do that. Now I have to say, okay, from 10 to 2, mama's writing, leave me along with that sort of thing. You've got to make the time. You know, it's changed. over the years, but how does it come, it's a connection with a stream of consciousness really that's going by that you get from and sometimes you get really lucky and go, wow, thank you. And sometimes someone else gets that line, you're like, oh, there it is, you know. That's all I go by it.

Yeah, that's real. The one that got away. Yeah, I've done that. I'm like, I thought of that and didn't do anything with it. How about melodically? Have you ever ripped off a song and didn't realize it until later? Oh, I'm constantly worried that, no, I've changed songs. I've gotten, oh, God, that was inspired by this.

Yeah. You know, and you can't help it. There's only eight notes. So you're like, did I make that up? Or is that like a really famous song that I just really like? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

What about you guys? Where does creativity come from for you? Um, I think for me, like, I was born into a musical family, So my dad's a pianist and you wrote sacred music and my mom played piano and we always sang together as a family. So, you know, whatever genetically might contribute to that was certainly in my line. But like I came into the world. Okay, it was born breach. That was back when they let you be born breach.

Born breach came in like bow-legged, red-headed, recessive gene sensitivity queen, like fucked up. And so... Great description. I mean, you have your limbo shirt from last night. You're like, arrived in limbo. I am on the cusp. I feel like, my name's Emily and I don't know, but I have big feelings. Yeah.

It's fun of my girl. Yes. So when I discovered guitar at nine years old, and then that became my vehicle. And so really, at first, and like Melissa said, it's a lot of emulating early on. I really wanted to be Joni Mitchell. And then I read an interview with her. You know, she was so acerbic back in the day. I was so afraid of her.

She didn't like anybody. And she was like, I don't want anybody to copy me. And I was like, oh, God, I guess I better find my own voice. Joni doesn't want me to be like her. So there were like these pivotal moments. But mostly it was like that was the way that I could figure out the world through my little lens, you know. And then as Melissa said, you live more. your songs become more alive in your own experience and they become richer.

I could write five songs a day when I was 17, but they were all the same and they were crap. I look back at those lyrics and it's like, God. I see these artists that are getting signed at 17, 18, and you're like, oh, God, they're going to, by the time they're 25, they're going to go, what, you know, they're going to be completely different than what they created at 17. I'm so glad I didn't get some. Well, we did record a few songs that if I had to go back,

Like, oops, we could have left that one off. I still have those. So I think for me, I just see the world in images. And then, like, Melissa, I'll write things down. And I'll think, oh, this is so good. This is going to go in a song nine times out of ten. It's like, God. So there's a constant self-criticism, too.

Like, it's very rarely there's two or three songs maybe that I'm like, ah, that did the trick. That's what I was going for. But for me, it really is songwriting is completely cathartic. You know, and with this administration, I've had a lot to write about. So the problem is that I end up sort of spewing the same sentiments and sort of descriptors. And after you have lived in written songs for so long, I just don't want to repeat myself. But when it is the way for me to process what's going on in the world or in life,

then, you know, there tend to be repeating themes because not much changes over time when it comes to the human race. No. So, anyway, that was a long-winded way of saying that's where mine comes from, trying to figure shit out. Yeah. What about you? I mean, my family was musical in some ways. Like, my parents loved music. My dad's got, had a great voice.

And we sort of had to take piano for three years. That was like the compulsory, which I'm so glad about. But I think I was just like drawn in, like my older sister would listen to a lot of the music from the late 60s and 70s. And I was really drawn into like Neil Young and Jimmy. Hendricks and Janice Joplin and Grace Slick and like all those kind of that era and then I discovered you know Carol King and Roseanne Cash and Linda Onstad and you know a lot of Johnny Mitchell and Ricky Lee and all these things that started cropping up but when I was very young I was in church choir I was a real church girl and went like you know a few days a week

at least study school Bible school youth group choir practice Friday night skating I did all of it right and music was a big part of what we did in the Methodist church. I was Methodist. Sporty Methodist. You were two as well? Sporty Methodist. And there was so much music.

Yeah, all the time. My parents ended up dropping me off at church. They didn't want to go to church, but I was like, take me to church. Yeah, you could just sit around and play. And I loved the spirit in it. Yeah. And we are one in the spirit. We are one.

Because you go and you think the feeling you have is about Jesus. I was like, oh my God, I love Jesus. I went to my first concert. I'm like, oh. I just love this music all together. Yes, yes, yes. Right? It's true, yeah.

It's that feeling of people are all in a moment together. It's communal. I was almost, I had a moment of being maybe a Christian artist. Oh, really? I know, it's true. I was like 20. It was before I came to California. And I had done so much work in the church

and had become head of the youth group. And I wrote a musical and I was doing all this stuff. And then you remember Phil Keggi? Oh, yeah. I love Phil Kayee. He came to our town. Oh, my God. I loved him.

And they let me open for him. Yeah. And I was like, this is it. This is my chance, you know. He was great. Oh, he's great. Yeah. And I met him backstage and I was like, what do you think?

Do you think, you know, I could, you know, because I'd written some great songs. And he, he's sweetheart. He said, I don't think Christian music is ready for you. Well, that was probably. And so I went, I'm going to Los Angeles. Oh, way to go, Phil. I'm just going to be gay. He's like.

I know. It was cool. That was nice of him. Yes. Yes. So you all, I'm a Methodist. What is, do you have any language to put around what your faith is right now? Oh, yeah. What's the language you would, like in this snapshot, this moment today, what is your faith? I'm a spiritualist.

Spiritualist. Yeah. I believe in intelligent design. You just can't look at this world and how. it is made without understanding that some intelligent life force or source is creating this that's going on. And I had cancer 21 years ago and it really like, oh, I got to get in life right now or I'm going to die, you know, that sort of thing. So I really dove deeply into religions, science, quantum physics, these things.

And when you start realizing that it's all the same thing, that we're actually connected by a force, whatever you want to call it, the ether, the source, we're connected, we're all one, and we're all different, and we're all creating and moving forward, and we're all trying to figure out how to live together. And there's a saying that started with Hermes back in the Greek time. It was as above, so below. What we're doing down here is also how it's done everywhere. You can see in a small cell what we are as a cell of a person are in this society, as our countries are in the world, as the world is in the universe, and it's all the same.

So that's a whole other podcast I could definitely talk to him about, but it brings me much peace to understand it that way, to understand the spirit in the world. What about you, Amy? I mean, I believe that, like, I was a religion major, and I really love religions, like, to study how people live, their, how, what you use as your construct to get through your life, you know? And so I'd look at religion as two things. Like, I'm very spiritual and I'm very, like, nature-oriented and kind of paganism in some ways. But I, the structure of Christianity is my comfort zone, and not the patriarchy, of course. When I write songs that are like gospel songs, I still write about Jesus, and I still think of Jesus as a historical figure who may or may not have been everything that we think, but in my mind is like this rebellious advocate for people that, you know, had less or weren't recognized, I guess is a better way to put it. They actually probably had more, but were disenfranchised.

And so for me, it's that I was raised so heavily in that, and it's still something I feel comfortable. with, you know, and I feel I go to church and I like preaching and I, when it's a good minister, and I really just love it, you know, I enjoy it a lot. So, but I'm very, but I also love Buddhism and I love the Jewish faith and I love, you know, like Jewish theologians like Martin Buber or I like, you know, so I just, I think Hinduism is really, there's a lot of things in Islam that are very special. And so I love it all, but I think I realize for me, the vehicle that I is, kind of Jesus without the patriarchy, I guess, in a way, which is hard to do. But I have like a filter and translator inside me that just takes whatever is happening and translates it into my

own language, and I feel good. But I don't, but I definitely feel, you know, determined for the church and institutions to sort of get with it, you know, and because they, there's so many churches like the church in my neighborhood, my mom's neighborhood, who my mom needs a lot of care right now and they're really there for her. And it's just like 50 people in the congregation with an incredible minister and a great piano player. And, you know, that's what a church, it's a neighbor church, they're there for everybody. When someone's house burns down, they're there for them. When my mom is sick, they're there for them. To me, that's what church is supposed to be about. You know, and so I believe it's important to have that community space. I just wish it hadn't been hijacked

by all the assholes. That's my take on it. But Emily's got a whole, Well, I just, I guess I'm much more of like a Holy Spirit kind of girl. Like, when I was younger, it was really about Jesus and, and I, like, these women, I grew up in the Methodist Church. My dad was a theologian and a minister, but we were, I guess you could call it progressive thinking, so we weren't, nothing was ever forced on us. We were able to ask a lot of questions, and my dad was able to describe to us the true mythology of Christian doctrine and storytelling. So when I became, I had a sort of intellectual grasp of the sharing of stories like the Lord's Prayer is actually a Jewish prayer in origin and then the stories of the gods and all that. So then I was like, okay, that's cool. So I'm not a fundamentalist and the mythology is beautiful and all that.

But to me, like human beings, in my opinion, we have a relationship to spirituality. So the more we lock in to goodness, doing for others, respecting our place in the scope of things, then the deeper the spiritual world grows. To put it simply, this entity that I believe in, this Holy Spirit, it grows, the more human beings are in relationship with it. So this is our task as human beings. And I'm a little negative about the human species. I don't think we've really come that far in terms of our evolution as beings, and we do have a chance to ruin it all, and perhaps we will. But in the moment, we are tasked with this relationship, so I buy into that, but also I buy into, like, the cosmos is like, we cannot fathom the mysteries of the universe.

And so there are mysteries, but then there are fractals. They know that things are repeating and repeating, and then, to me, it's just. just so truly in the literal sense of the word, awesome, like awesome. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard Things for free. If you've ever felt like menopause was something you had to go through quietly, you're not wrong because the media rarely talks about it. That's why I'm such a fan of the 19th. They're an independent, nonprofit newsroom that reports on gender, politics,

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Let yourself run, lift, sculpt, push, and go. Explore the new Peloton cross-training tread plus at one peloton.com. What is your faith or all of that? How does it inform how you show up right now in this moment that we're in in this country and how does being on the road together right now feel being like all of this you know it's so emotional just watching mom says because you know just you have walked us through so many things and I felt comforted last night because I thought well there's a lot of young people there last night and I was like oh these people think this is new like there's so many queer kids out there

but you all went through it when it wasn't so easy right when everybody wasn't assimilated so what can you, what do you want them to know the young kids to know right now, like young queer kids? And what have you learned from them that has changed your worldview? Our oldest child is a lesbian. And it seems so funny because she'll say, people ask me, do you think you're lesbian because your mother was or whatever? And she's like, well, are you straight because your parents were straight? You know, that's a silly question. And I raised her in a world where she really thought there were more gay people. than straight people in the world when she was a child.

She really did. And she came to the Berkeley show the other night, and the Berkeley show was, it was 10,000 strong, magical men and women. And she turned to her partner. She goes, this is what I was raised in. This is what I thought the world was, was this right here. So I see that as these younger kids

who were raised after we already you know, started building it. And we were the, you know, the famous ones, but there were so many people. I was surrounded by, you know, Irvishy Vade and these men and women who were fighting the AIDS fight, you know, in the 80s. And that's what really brought us all together.

This was something, was killing people. And we all joined together. And these people, I would. I would hang around them in Hollywood, and they were working so hard. And it inspired me to go, you know, it would probably mean something. but I really came out and did that.

And so there was a small sense of community and, you know, like what we, they wouldn't, I remember when Bill Clinton actually said gay and lesbian for the first time on television, it was like, my God, he said the word lesbian, you know, and it was just really, you know, huge. And I would say to the younger ones now, we have come so far. You don't realize that it wasn't that long ago that it was like, so we have come so far. rest assured in that. Yes, people are going to try to push back, but it's not going to work because we have, we've already come so far. And I didn't think in my lifetime that I would be able to say, I have a wife. Same. You know, that wasn't something that, and marriage, when we

were just fighting to stay alive and not be thrown in jail, we didn't think about marriage. That was like, that's something that straight people do, you know. And it wasn't until I realized that, well, There's a whole lot of rights that come with marriage and stuff. Right. You know, I wanted marriage so I could get gay divorced, you know, so I could. Divorce equality is important. No, you have no idea. I had to pay twice as much in taxes that someone else would have to pay in a divorce.

So I would say, I would say don't despair. It's have enough of the contrast to give you energy, but don't ever let it overcome. you because we have already pushed through so much of this and it's just people in their fear and that they don't understand what they don't see and so so be out be gay be who you are and change happens slowly and just in 20 years they'll be going oh well we used to have to do that you know exactly it'll be the same yes what about you too what do you think about when you think about the young queer love I love I love young queer activists I love young activists not even just queer. For me, they've mentored me. All my life, I've felt like, you know, I used to hang out

with this band The Butchies, which was part of Team Dress. It was kind of like the Riot Girl era, and we played toured together some, and they really opened my mind to my own sort of gender struggles, and, you know, they're 10 years younger than me. And from that point on, I sort of started realizing, yeah, you know what, it's like, I don't really have a lot to say, I have to listen probably a lot because they opened my mind to a lot of stuff that was already going on inside me and enabled me to articulate things that made my life so much easier. And then as I got older, I noticed that all these great movements were starting to be led by, you know, younger people and I mean, gun safety, gun control, environmental movements, climate change, black lives

matter, death penalty work. The indigenous movement right now is very youth-led and amazing young leaders and the queer movement and I find that I have a lot of young queer people in my life also because I have two gay sisters and they have you know I have a gay sister that got gay children I've got a brother that's got gay kids it's like there's just a lot of gay around and it's and queer but it's so different for them because they're so on it's so on a speck it's so like fluid and it's so not labeled and it's free and and I don't know I just feel like there's still a lot to learn. And there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of bullying, there's a lot of hate and vitriol, but, and it's really important, I think, just to, you know, love each other through that,

but also I have so much faith in this younger batch of people that I just try to, like, listen, what needs to be done? Like, what are you all doing? What do I need to be doing to help that? Because I feel like that's the leadership that's so important right now. But I also think just generally every day right now I feel like I'm always like I got to do something positive today for somebody it doesn't have to be queer you know what I mean it just has to be one thing

that helps because right now like that's the only thing I can focus on is like narrowing into like how is that how is that one thing that I can do today that'll help somebody feel better or open somebody's mind up a little bit or make some or just love

as you know you talk about love on stage lot it's good it's like yeah because I live in an where everybody's it's very much more conservative and there's a lot of it's very hard right now for people to just like look find their way through it you know and but if people can keep relationships going even though they feel differently and they hate each other in some ways if they can try to keep something together I think it's right now it's probably going to be the thing that saves us you know to do that to have some humanity um for me I just think simply I don't have much that I would tell young youth and activists queer youth except to say that things are on a continuum and something came before you it came before us people have suffered to bring us where we are and now there's a lot of suffering again sort of like one step forward two steps back it feels like with this administration and just the horrific way that trans people are being treated and all of that.

their rights being stripped, but there has been a continuum and there always will be, but mostly I want to learn from them. Like, I just recently got to know Katie Gavin from me. She is. Amazing human being. I love her. She's a really wonderful human being. And she, I went to go see her play her solo show in New York, and I met her friends. And I, it was like, I was going to say a kid in a candy store, but it was more like, here I am this person in my age with my experience. and trying to use the tools that I have. These young people were so inspiring. First of all, they were all non-binary, all her friends.

One of them was talking about how they flew to Egypt so that they could try to sneak over the border or get food to Palestinians, like on the ground, complete courage that they wouldn't even call courage. It's just the way that they live their truth. So I'm like, y'all tell me what to do, and I'll do my best as a middle age, like, whatever. just so inspiring and so there's a whole like circle of young artists and some of them I find on

YouTube but Katie's like in that in that circle of people that's so inspiring to me so I just want to listen and like be a worker bee and show up for them beautiful but what is the daylight getting through this shit like besides the like theoretical like when you guys wake up and you're talking to your partners or you're talking to your kids how do you approach living in this moment on a day-to-day basis. How do you ride the wave of fascism? Well, you want to tell them that you're in an interesting period of your life? Well, I always am. It's fascism and you got to tell them.

Oh, menopause. Like, I never. Oh, that's a book. I just had a haunt flashes we were sitting here and I was like, how was that going on? Yeah, the intersection of fascism or, or menopies? It's wild. It's like, is this raging homicidal lightning flash I have inside of me? Like, due to the, the fallen estrogen or the fallen democracy. Can you please write that book? No, I can't keep a thought in my mind for longer than two minutes. Just record everything as you think it.

Just like recorded as you think it and then trans. I mean, you all have kids. Like, what are you saying to them? And how do you keep your equilibrium, do you? I do. Again, it started with me when I, I went through cancer. That was just a big, big, like, shift in my life of, oh, wow, I've got to, I got to think about me personally. And as I said early, but as above so below,

I'm, I represent the whole, each individual has everything in it. And each part of you and your body, your DNA has everything in it. So I look to the, fantastic things. I also look at what I'm taking in. It is really hard to watch the news. Watching the news is you have to set yourself in a good place before you watch the news or it will take you under and throw you away. And the technology that we have, how instantly things that happen all over the world, you can look and feel it. instantly. And then there's, like in the moment, there's nothing you can do about it. So it causes a great depression. So it's about, okay, how can I get to a place where I know that I'm doing

what I can, what's healthy for me? Health is, especially menopause, this is when all the health stuff starts. So it's about strengthening yourself for my children. I can't have my children watching me fall apart over something that I literally can't change today. And I want to have my children see me, one, love what I'm doing, because I want them to love what they do in life. I want them to love life. So words don't teach. I can tell them, you have to love your life. But if they're seeing me falling apart every day, they're going to go.

that doesn't fit. So I want to be an example. All I can do is teach them by my example, an example of a loving relationship, how I love myself in my relationship, how I love myself in my work, and how the only thing that could ever take me away from you is that I love, is my love, and show them that that's the joy of life, is doing what you love. And then in your doing what you'd love, you actually make the world a better place. You really do. And believing that and then letting the things that you can do come to you like this. You have inspired so many young people just by being truthful, just by being you. That's the power that can't be taken away. And also the knowledge that in this world, we live in a dualistic universe. That is

A reality is good and bad, light and dark, up and down, in and out, right and wrong. It's, there's, you can't have one without the other. They all exist. So how do we exist in a world where there's going to be really bad things always happening? How do we do that? Well, you, appreciation. You know what? This administration really makes me appreciate.

appreciate good leadership. I want to find people that are thinking forward about leadership. I want to put my energy, instead of putting my energy looking at what I don't like, saying what I don't like, which gives me more of what I don't like. I'm going to say, okay, this exists. I'm not going to say it doesn't exist. Yes, it exists. And it makes me want more peace. It makes me want better leaders, better leadership. How can we lead as one in our diversity? Oh, well, we celebrate all diversity. We even celebrate people who don't understand us. We appreciate, find a way to truly do it. And it's inside work. And it's inside work loving our bodies and how, okay, we're not making babies anymore. That was only a part of our life. Now,

Unfortunately, in the last 2,000 years, a woman, post-menopausal, 2,000 years ago, was the village leader. They were the ones who knew the things, the wisdom, the owls that we are. That's what our job was back then. And then that's been taken away and buried. And no, no, no, no, no. It's time to embrace that now. Now, this is when the good stuff starts happening. That's exactly right.

That's right. this is the good stuff. All the political movements. Yeah. And all the, if we can like zoom out of humanity, the bad things need to happen. There you go. So that you have something to fight against. More good stuff.

And then this is the moment where we get to come together. So like that's the way that my mindset works too. Like though I wish that we didn't have to go through the suffering portal to get through, you know, to the next step. I mean, anyone who's suffering really is, that's proof of love. because anyone who looks at this mess and feels deep pain or sadness, that's only because there's a vision inside of them that is like this should be more beautiful. But love yourself enough to move to the next step from that. Do not stay in despair or suffering because then that doesn't help anybody and you get sick

and you die. So understand it, feel it, and then appreciate. I appreciate feeling that because I know that that has made me want this. I, we all went through, you have your Laramie song. I have a scarecrow song about Matthew Shepard. People don't understand what a big moment that was because it shifted people going, no, no, no, we can't be gay. There's no gay, no gay, too.

Wait a minute, I'm not that. I don't want to kill in such a horrible way. And it shifted a whole lot of people to, I'm not that. So the awfulness, we are going to see more people go, you know what, I'm not bad, even though they might have been, oh, I'm conservative, oh, I'm not bad. And they move over. So that's where change happens. You mentioned being yourself out loud, that that is an important part of your work. Have you ever had a time where you decided to censor yourself either in music? music or on stage. Can you think of a time where that has happened and you didn't say the thing? And then what was the fallout?

Yeah. I mean, I think for me, it's like a daily wrestling when we're on tour and singing. I always think about that, like not saying something for various reasons. You know, like if you're in a band with a lot of people and different people feel different. things and you know that out of respect for people in your band that this may not be the time to talk about certain issues or whatever but then then you're like but this is a this is the time to talk about that so it's like but I think it's harder than that I want to admit to myself to not be censored and to really be as strong as I want to be you know so I think it's not just like one moment it's like a constant dialogue for me because I'm it's It's easier to sing a song that's outspoken than it is to actually speak out.

That's interesting. So it's, you know, but for me it's like when you're out of protest or a march, it's, you know, you're there, you're in it, you're saying it. When you're on stage in front of a lot of people, sometimes it's like, I don't want to, you start, do I want to alienate people? And then you're like, why am I worried about that right now? And so I have this little thing going on in my head. I think it's cool for me and Emily because we, I think we sort of tag team this a little bit because there's always this sense of who feels stronger that we don't even talk about, but you can just tell like, well, Emily, Emily feels strong tonight to talk about this or I feel strong tonight to talk about this. And I don't really even think about it. But as I look at it, I think like that's where we have the luxury of that tag teaming and making each other stronger. And I live in a town that's very, you know, I love my neighbors. much and I really am careful, not about what I say, but choosing my moments to, like, evangelize to them about whatever, you know, and just, and respecting where they're coming from.

But if it's, if someone makes a racist comment, I'm going to say something about it, you know, or if someone says something really hateful, I do speak up, but like, I'm not scared about what people think of me. I'm scared of losing the thread of a relationship and damaging that because I also had a dad that was very conservative and a mom that's now super progressive but used to be conservative so and i and i try to be brave you know because and i look to my mentors my indian elders and and other elders you know jimmy carter stacy abrams um you know who unabashedly would just say things that they say but they're saved them in a way that's gentle or somehow they're managed

to say it without aliening people and still speak their truth and i just study that like john lewis because I haven't gotten there at all in any way. If you want some help, I have some advice on this topic. Oh, cool. You know when we were young and our parents would like, you'd be like acting up and they would just be like, knock it off. Knock it off. I'm bringing it back.

Knock it off. So when somebody steps out of line, just be like, knock it off. Because it's kind of loving and also nostalgic and also to the point. Yeah. And now it's time for our ads. As you all know by now, I have struggled with eating disorders since I was 10 years old. It is really something, how much disordered eating can steal from us. Not just our health, but our joy and our relationships and our peace.

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at NetSuite.com slash hard things. The guide is free to you at NetSuite.com slash hard things. Let me ask y'all, like, how is life different for you now that you're so much in the public and, like, truthfully, very, very famous? How does that, does it make you more self-conscious about the way you live your life or how you speak your thoughts or how you do your job? I think for me, I have all different thoughts about it. I'm extremely sensitive human, so Abby knows we go through a lot of ups and downs in a day. but I think for me the biggest challenge right now is to understand that my job isn't just to comfort a community like it is not my job to make everybody feel comfortable all the time

which is my I love the people who we do life with and I love our community and then like every two years I am internally compelled to just blow it all up by saying something or doing something and then everyone's like oh we liked you before and then but so it's like a cycle so for me it's like getting comfortable with my mission or or responsibility being not to just comfort a community but also challenge and being okay leaving behind whatever has to go knowing that whatever will come next is what we're supposed to be but it does feel like a constant like oh we just got comfortable like what you said about life is like we just got comfortable with this thing and that like

I think if I, we know, if I'm speaking somewhere at a church or whatever and no one leaves, I feel like I haven't done my job. Oh. I always think that. Oh, interesting. Like when I start seeing people walk out, I'm like, oh, God, God, I'm almost done. Right. I did the thing. Yeah.

She's supposed to be challenging people to a point where there are, some people are like, get me out of here. But it makes me sad because I don't want, I want people to feel safe. but then safety isn't always the... You're right. You're right. You're right. It's hard for me to do that. You're so right.

And then what's your experience in all of that, Abby? Since the time I was 15, 16, from like a smaller town in upstate New York to then like the world. I've had an interesting relationship with fame and being known in the public eye. and I think it's such a bizarre thing to have like I would I would liken it to your guys's talent because there is something supernatural about it that I don't have anything to do with I don't know why I was gifted this thing so I do actually feel like I am of the people because I can't claim full responsibility of it all yeah yeah so and then and so when people

come up to us, I just, I don't, I don't feel there's a difference. Yeah, I agree. Like when, when, when we, when, when I first met Glennon and got three kids, I was like very much thrown into, I'm now have to have a consciousness for these three humans also, because they're young. And, uh, when somebody would kind of interrupt us, that would be interruptive to their experience. And so having to think through it from like a kid's perspective. And nowadays, they're older now. And so it's usually pretty normal. And we live in an area where everybody kind of respects us.

I don't know. I feel like the energy on this set right now, it's like this is going to sound so weird. But just bear with me. I was doing a breath class. And in the breath class, you're basically hyperventilating. Yeah. You know, and I had some hallucinating. where God came down on me and basically was just like,

I gave you this gift. I gave you these gifts. And like, it's up to you what you want to do with it. So it's like a daily choice to be in this system. And in the sports world, especially when I was traveling overseas, like people were calling me dyke and like, fuck you. And I was like, I was the enemy. I was like the opposition.

So I got really comfortable. In a place where people are booing. Because if I, if they weren't booing, then I was not playing well. Then they didn't, they weren't scared. So it's kind of weird dynamic. So I'm like the perfect person for you to be married to because I'm just like, you know, roll up your sleeves. They're yelling at us. It's good.

And I'm like, I don't know. That's a cool. That's fairly interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Do you guys think anything was lost in the time when, you know, there were rainbows in every old Navy and that, because, like, does, because really, there, I don't know how to put this into words, but it felt like there was something cooler than that that we were going for. Like, just being like everyone else wasn't, it was kind of like, oh. Well, then you have the capitalist part of it, too.

Yeah, modified. Like, I remember when American Airlines came out and was like very pro-gay early, early on. And I was like, oh, that's cool from the goodness of their hearts. It's like, it's dollars, yes. But you know what's like in, I think it's a link to what you're saying, Glennon. A lot of this conversation has come up recently and I've had people I know say it seems like the trans movement has hurt the gay movement. And they're more, they feel their identity is lesbian and not queer. They don't like, and this is, it's very.

it's very interesting to me. And I understand why you can bite off more than you can chew in terms of a political strategy that the voting block is not ready for. But it doesn't mean that there isn't some way that you have to keep fighting for that. So it's just really interesting to me now these powers that have separated people, they've gotten into the queer community. And it's like diabolical. And it's like, no, no, no. We need to stick together. Yeah. That's history too, Emily, you know?

Yeah. Think about it. Remember the parades in Atlanta and they'd be like, we don't want all the, you know, the queens at the front of the parade because then the families won't accept the parade. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and then, you know, it's like this fight over femmes and butch lesbians and just, there's always this like weird... People want to close the door behind them.

People are always like, okay, we got in, but no, not you. That's exactly right. It's like the... Safety. Yeah, it's like America. It's America. Immigration, you know. Okay, once the, you know, the Irish came over, they're like, okay, now we're close.

You can't come over now. Or suffer. Like, okay, we'll just get the white ladies first. Yeah, right. Then, yeah. It's this constant challenge of human beings to accept differences and this diversity. And diversity is scary to people, especially if you grow up in a place that's not diverse, than different people.

That's why traveling is so good for people. So it's just people getting comfortable. They got comfortable with the gay thing. Okay, we were out there singing. They liked their songs. We found that, okay, there's gay people in sports. And then eventually, weird people will just be, you know, it's a part of all of us.

It is especially hard. I mean, it is especially hard right now with the trans movement, so under attack for it to come, for our community to be. yeah to sit in that seat too and and start it's just like wow you see have you not learned yeah it's in the past 50 years i mean there's a great example in the world right now how can a group of people who have been so oppressed killed separated ostracized treat another group of human beings inhumane way i think that's one of the things i've learned so much from our 20 year old they don't

even comprehend the idea of leaving anyone behind. Like if this whole like compromising thing, like if they don't want us without the trans community, then fuck you, then we don't get any of us. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I'm trying to say like we're not even trying to get what you have. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. We don't need your room. We don't need your. We'll just stick together because if we did, we'd be bigger and more powerful. Yeah. And if we could all say that these conservatives, these, these, The people that are afraid of us are also just a part of this. We're looking at you as you're kind of weird, you know?

And that's where the media and stuff comes in because it's all very one kind of cited. And if that's our job is to keep doing what we do, be successful, love what we do, show, be up here. So that pretty soon it's just, and those are the noisy ones. They've got all the power right now, but power is attention. So if we can be who we are, have more attention. then they become just part of the big soup. Yeah. Can you tell them about the Freedom Fleet?

Well, I mean, this is just a cheesy metaphor that I always use, but... It's not cheesy. It's very important. So in one day, I was just feeling extremely depressed about, like, the onslaught of everything and, like, how are we going to respond and how do we resist something that's constantly? And I was rereading this essay by Michelle Alexander that she wrote in the first Trump administration where she was saying, don't worry, we're not the resistance. Like the river of like yearning for love and justice, which is what all three of you have been singing about forever, is the river. That's the way of things. That is the energy. That's God. And you're flowing with it or you're resisting. But the damn, the resistance is the other side. That's like, that's why all the laws and all the whatever. That's, but it's not just the river. We have to be human about. We have to get in the river. We need to figure out just like concrete thing you can do every day. It makes a difference. It's not just helping someone feel better, but also like, you know, like the friends in L.A. that we have that do the networks of people that alert people to when ice rates are going on. Or, you know, taking someone in or helping or, you know, if someone's like, I can't work here anymore, but I need to still make money, but I'm undocumented and I need help and I need to have some kind of job, but I can't do it here because, you know, like just try whatever it is that you can do mechanically. Like I just feel like,

there's so many it's so hard to figure out what to do I know because I'm always struggling with that like what can I do that like is actually in the trenches and makes a difference I think singing is good but also I have some extra time I want to do something else too yeah sure so I want to help this person or help this kid or do this or that and it's like so if we get you know so if some trans kid gives us a request to do something special for the family or do this or that it's like oh yeah we can do that you know what I'm saying like okay there's something to do. It's like just be on the lookout. And everyone doing that is what creates change. Doing what you can do right there. And people are different about what they do, aren't they? I mean, they're reading all the different ways. You know, I used to be like, they threw condoms at the Pope? What? You know, it was like, that was important. I was too young to get that now. I'm like, hell yeah. And then my dad has this relationship with this Benedictine community in Minnesota and I came to understand why a community of prayer was important and how that fit into the whole thing. But it's like we have to respect all the input for good change, you know,

no matter what form it takes what it looks like. And we have to respect the people in different boats. There's this vibe of like, I'm in this boat and you're in this boat, so fuck you. But it's like, no, no, what's one fleet? You're all on the same river. You're all on the same river. Yeah. And we need them in our boat and we need to be in our boat and we should just be, the only thing we should be yelling is go, go, go, right? But it's all on the same river. But, you're all on the same river. But A lot of times white people think that it's their perspective is the perspective. You know what I mean? I have not noticed that, Emily.

So, like, if you're after the election and you're wringing your hands and you're crying like I did, and then you talk to a black woman who's been in the struggle, not only her entire life, but her generations, her people, her. And then you're like, oh. And we're like, I'm going to take my ball and go home because it's been two weeks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that's another thing, the perception of time. The only thing you have control over is you and how you feel. And we don't realize how powerful that is. Can you just, first of all, move in with me. And then while you're thinking about that, I actually just want to know, is there any, you mentioned inspiration from books, poetry, movies, TV, but like, what is, do you have anything lately that's been especially delightful or healing to you in the art world?

TV world, anything. And it also could be my answer, which is Love Island, so it could be very low brow. Like, she's not going to want that answer from you guys, but I just want to make sure. Yeah, there's a range of things. Like, Love Island, I'm just like, it's like the perfect medication for me right now.

There's a... My children's too. Yeah. This isn't the Love Island answer. Great. But there's a book. It's called The Myth of Normal. Gabor mate.

Oh, we love Gabor, yeah. Gabor, Gabor, Gabor, yes. Just, I mean, it's a big, thick book. But you will find comfort. You will find some understanding and why people think the way they do. And then how you can heal your own inner stuff to be of service, to be.

Yeah, he's great. Beautiful. I would say that. I don't know. Love Island is pretty good too. I got into this writer, Imani Perry. Oh! And I just, I've read everything and then I reread it and then I listen to the audiobooks.

Such a great perspective on so many things. Beyond race, contextualizes so many things in such a beautiful way. So she's my new love of writing. But I have to say my 11-year-old, they, sitting beside them on the couch, watching them play Minecraft is quite a calming experience for me. And they're really good at it and into it. And we do a lot of things together besides that. I don't want y'all think I'm just like six for six hours playing Minecraft. But they create universes.

But yeah. And I'm just sitting there and I'm just listening to all the beautiful sounds that Minecraft has. And it's like, this is so peaceful right now. Oh, that's awesome. So, and then we walk in the woods a lot, those, those things. I think 11-year-olds are, that's a great age. Is Amani's work important to you because of the southern thing? Because you're so connected to the south.

Probably, probably. I mean, I think, yeah, I'm a broken record about the South. You know, I'm trying to also write about something different. But, yeah. And I think, and I also think she brings, it's about the South, but she's, she has a way of bringing people in to the circle. And understanding other people that are so different from herself and being truly empathetic, which is so hard to do. And she really does it, you know.

And so, I mean, that book South to America was like, I think I listened to the other book twice, read the book twice. I just, I was like, this is, commit this to my mantra. So, yeah, I think it helped me, it restored me to, in my town with my people, people to be patient and empathetic and loving and I just, I'm such a southerner, you know, and gave me more patience with my ancestors that are, you know, there's some rest in peace, but like, whoa, some of them should not rest in peace. I'll just say that. Work harder. Do better.

But, yeah, so anyway, yeah. Awesome. What's up for Emily? Well, you know, this friend Kaplan, she's a friend of Amy's of mine. you all know her. She's from Georgia. I spent a few hours with her. She's a filmmaker, a very good filmmaker, and she also is doing this on the ground work with reporting when ICE shows up. I was so inspired. I've known this woman for decades. I was so inspired by the way she is living and working in the world. It was very, I don't know how to describe it. I was like, and it made me want to be a better

person. So, like, I have all these people in my life. Amy's one of them, too, that makes me, seriously, makes me want to be. I'm not trying to belittle that. A better person, you know? Like, I have a lot of people in my life. We're very smart and active. And, um, and so I'm always inspired by that. You know, Katie Gavin has been very important to me. Me too. Um, yeah, her personhood, her music, the people that she's introduced me to. And then, like, I've really, because I've struggled with my privilege, my whiteness, I've had a lot of, like, I don't know if guilt's the right word, but taking it into perspective in a way that has diminished the power of joy in my own life

with people I love. And so I'm very, very invested right now in spending time with people I love. And I'm very fortunate to love my family. They're like my friends, hang with them. So I'm getting a lot of inspiration. Also, this is kind of weird. But I went to Scandinavia. My sisters and I took my dad.

And we went to the museum in Oslo, like the National Museum. And it was so well curated. And it was like the revival of the Gothic area of art. And I was like, wow, curating is really important. And just like a well-constructed sermon was always important. So I really had an appreciation for the work that goes into presenting something. That was inspiring to me. And then I read Miranda July.

I read both her books. And I'm like, I fucking love weird people. Yeah. Like just diversity and weirdness. How many groups have split up in horrible stuff. And these two genuinely still love each other. It's so, it's so great. I'm thankful for it.

It's so inspiring. You guys are so cool. And we love you. I like my little Indigo Girl sandwiches. We're very, very happy. We're having a love too. We're so great. I want to throw in one more thing.

Yeah, me too. Plant medicine, hallucinogenics are healing and provide a lot of relief. And I'm going to throw a little bit from my foundation. Oh, no, please. We want to hear, I read all about it. I'm going to say it. Yeah, yeah. It's, well, you know, cannabis is the one that everyone just,

They use it recreationally, but I think any use of any plant medicine is medicinal, people just don't know it. And psilocybin has got so much, there's so much microdosing, and there's, it's all about facilitation, though, but the big work, the big work, which the Etheridge Foundation does, is in opioid addiction. I lost my son five years ago, and to see and understand the science, and this is where science and spirit meet. And the Etheridge Foundation, I'm right in the middle, really bringing these two together because the science is, in our brain chemistry, our neural pathways can be reset through plant medicine. This is not any sort of, this is not over doing drugs where this is therapeutic work with ayahuasca, with ibogane. Ibogane is a, Iboga is an African root that for centuries. they've been doing a ceremony with. And one, sometimes just one journey, one four-hour journey on Ivo game, can let, the reason

it helps addicts is because the addiction is the neurological pathway just going there that needs to be fixed. It pauses that, and you can rewire the science is there. Etheridge Foundation raises money for this research all over the world that shows. that the science is working. There's a lot of hope there. There's a lot of relief. Keep doing that awesome work.

Where do people find that in? EtheridgeFoundation.org. And there's information there. You can donate. You can help. There's all kinds of things you can do. That's great. I'm listening.

All right. I just want to say that we've seen a lot of great things. A lot of hope. I was a former opioid addict myself. So I very much understand. I've been sober for almost 10 years now. We've done a couple of therapeutic treatments. And it's a huge deal.

The whole range is, yeah, so I'm really trying to also normalize that and bring it out of the great work. It's, yeah, I've seen a special about a couple that did that with a man who had PTSD from the war. Oh, it's incredible how it, you see his life. Change their life because they rewire their neural pathways. It's the science. It's not really cool. Yeah, and you find you see. I got a few pathways that need to be rewired.

Come on. Neuroplasticity. I want to go rewire those pathways now. Very amazing. What about you guys? Do you have anything else? I do dog rescue. Do you know what she does?

She brings puppies to shows. And it's so hard for us. We love it. I'm going to adopt 10 puppies puppies. Okay. All right. Doory, you don't do it. Okay.

I do dog rescue, but I didn't mean to do this one at this moment. And I have six right now. And then I had to rescue this 110-pound rotweiler just out of puppy hood. Sweet, sweet, but I can't keep it. I got to find a home for this dog. Oh, 110-pound. He's great with kids. Don't know yet.

He's so far pretty good with other dogs. We're not positive. He ignores cats. We're working with him, but he's at my house. Okay. Anyone? So we need a family? No, I don't know.

By the time of this area, he'll be adopted. Okay. But ideally it would be like some party that like doesn't even have, like, that's had Rottweilers and wants another one because they lost one or something and likes to go running with a big dog because he needs to be trained. Did you guys see Tiki on? online at all? Are you online? No. Okay, Simon Sitz, IG. This is a silly story now, but if you want to do yourselves a favor, just go to Simon Sits IG and then follow Tiki. This woman, Isabel, adopted a dog named Tiki and took us through the day-by-day process. And it was exactly what I needed right when Trump got elected. That I was like, oh my God, like one person saving one life. is the content that I'm here

for, so do yourself a favor. I have more dogs and opossums and like squid in my Instagram feed than anything else. Highland cows, Highland cows are awesome. The way cows love music. Yes, yes. Okay, these guys have very like profoundly

offered wonderful things. I want to plug my musical. Yay! That's huge. Like going to view. Tell us everything. I know, I know, I know. That's funny.

So this is my first musical. It's awesome. I'm writing the, thanks, Ame. I'm writing the music. And Beth Malone, who starred in Fun Home, wrote the book with her friend Marianne Stratton, who's a wonderful writer, taught public school for 30 years. So Mary Ann Beth and I wrote the show. It's called Starstruck, loosely based on Serena de Bergerac.

And we have our first production at Bucks County Playhouse. And the first show is like February 20th, 2026. So I'm really excited that we have a production and I just want, I'm sorry, but I do want to plug it. Of course you do. I don't want people to come. It's going to be midwinter up near Philadelphia. Writing a play and songs for a play is a different beast than what you're used to, right? It is.

Is it fun? Oh, it's so, it's fun, it's exhilarating. I'm around a lot of creative people who are really schooling me on things that I'm enjoying learning about. Cool. It's thrilling. It's thrilling. So cool. Yeah.

Okay. Silo Saibin, Rottweller's. My PSA is that don't buy from a breeder, just freaking adopt the dog. They kill them every day. And that's, I don't, I know you don't want to hear that. People don't want to hear that. But they, the shelters are overcrowded. Even the no-kill shelters in Georgia are having to euthanize.

So do not, just wait. You can go online and find any breed you want. That's right. Rescue organizations. just do it. Thank you so much. Y'all are the best. We love you guys.

Our first studio show. And maybe last. There you go. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human. Forever Dog is our production partner, and you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things show. TikTok.