We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Indigo Girls: Sexuality, Sobriety, Faith & Freedom (Best Of)

Episode Date: March 22, 2025

1. Why Emily couldn’t stop crying (and it wasn’t because she was emotional). 2. The intervention that got Emily sober – and why Amy wasn’t there. 3. Glennon admits something that she’s never told anyone before. 4. Amy and Abby agree on the shared cost of internalized homophobia and misogyny. About Indigo Girls: One of the most successful folk duos in history – Amy Ray and Emily Sailers aka THE INDIGO GIRLS – has recorded 16 albums and sold over 15 million records. Committed and uncompromising activists, they work on issues like immigration reform, LGBTQ advocacy, education, and death penalty reform. They are co-founders of Honor the Earth, a non-profit dedicated to the survival of sustainable Native communities, Indigenous environmental justice, and green energy solutions. Their latest record, Look Long is a stirring and eclectic collection of songs that finds Indigo Girls reunited in the studio with their strongest backing band to date. IG: @indigogirlsmusic, @emilysaliers & @amyraymusic TW: @Indigo_Girls, @EmilySaliers & @AmyRay To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As the weather warms up and spring is in the air, it's the perfect time to escape the usual routine and take a refreshing getaway. I recently discovered how special a spring retreat can be when I book an Airbnb instead of a hotel. We found a peaceful cottage, so cute, tucked away in the countryside, surrounded by so many blooming flowers

and the sound of birds chirping. It was exactly what we needed. A quiet little escape with all the comforts of home. We had the whole place to ourselves with plenty of space to cook breakfast and enjoy meals at our own pace. Unwind with a good book and a cozy corner and even step outside to relax on the porch.

Whether you're with family, friends or flying solo, Airbnb gives you the home away from home experience with the space and freedom to truly relax. If you're looking for your own spring retreat, Airbnb has the perfect spot waiting for you. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan. You know, for texting and stuff.

And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. Okay, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We're just going to just begin because Abby and I just got in a huge fight. Wait, are you serious? Yeah. No, we didn't get into a huge fight, but she's been a little bit on edge this morning. She literally shushed me a little bit ago because I came back from workout and oftentimes my volume is a little higher.

Anyway. And so just recently recently as you sat down I said are you upset with me and she said no what did you say I said no I'm not upset with you I'm freaking the fuck out I'm having a nervous breakdown because we're about to interview Amy and Emily and I can't stop thinking about it I have dressed up as if I'm going to a ball like I I haven't dressed up for two years like Like what is wrong with me? I said, we have to just start this. We have to start it because I'm, so I don't run away. Okay. Why are you nervous? Yeah. Oh, well, that's a good place to start. I don't know. I'm nervous

because if there are two people in the entire world who have meant more to me artistically. There aren't any more people who are, see, I'm doing great. I'm crushing it and completing sentences. So when I was getting sober, I was 25 and I had just decided that my feelings were too much to feel. So I just numbed myself out forever. And then I found out I was pregnant.

So I had to figure out how to human. And I still thought I couldn't feel my feelings or I would die. So I was freshly sober. And when I got sober, I was almost dead. I was like in a very bad place. And I used to practice being human. I would start one of your songs. and I used to practice being human, I would start one of your songs. I would allow myself like the four minutes

of one Indigo Girls song. And I would lay on my bed and allow myself to feel feelings for those four minutes. And for the first month, two months of sobriety, that's, I would say you don't have to feel any other time, just those four minutes. And do you think that I have spent a single day of our lives, like since I got sober for 20 years without listening to you all,

every day of my life? Wow. You both are the background in our life and our children's life. So do you think we should tell the people who we're talking to and about? Today we are talking to and having a double date with the most important duo of Abbey and I's lives, Emily Sailors and Amy Rae, the Indigo Girls, who together make the most important music of our lifetime.

One of the most successful folk duos in history, Amy Rae and Emily Sailors, AKA the Indigo Girls, has recorded 16 albums and sold over 15 million records. That sounds impressive, but I bought 14 million of them. Committed and uncompromising activists, they work on issues like immigration reform, LGBTQ advocacy, education and death penalty reform. They are co-founders of Honor the Earth, a nonprofit dedicated to the survival of sustainable native communities, indigenous environmental justice,

and green energy solutions. Their latest record, Look Long, Love, is a stirring and eclectic collection of songs that finds the Indigo Girls reunited in the studio with their strongest backing band to date. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Amy and Emily, thank you for saving our lives and being here today. Oh man, it's an honor. It really is for us. Yeah, totally. Such an honor. And wow, what a story.

Yeah. I was going to say, Glennon, if you were trying to have an introductory course into feeling feelings, I would have picked Barry Manilow instead of Indigo Girls because we're so intense and emotional. Wait, Barry Manilow is so intense. Really? Well, I mean, it just would have like a gentler introduction into real feelings. That's curious to me.

Because I feel like at that time, I had never heard music that honored the complication of being a woman. You were really honoring the complication of life. Listening to light stuff or reading light stuff makes me feel worse because I feel like, oh, I guess everyone else is fine and not swirly. Right? And I think what probably was bringing you

into the depths of your addiction was this cover or the costumes that you had to keep putting on. And Glennon talks a lot about going to our first meeting and finally listening to people telling the truth for the first time. And I bet because they speak so much truth in their music and I bet that that was such an attraction to you. Yeah. Well, and then when I told Craig that I was in love with a woman, the first words he said to me, I was married. The first words he said to me was, is this what all the Indigo

girls have been about? Oh my God. Is that a compliment or a stinking compliment? I don't know. I'm getting blamed. But it was right. I was like, I think it is. Holy shit. All those husbands. All those husbands. And boyfriends. Yeah. Poor guys. Poor guys. So how did you find music in each other? We knew each other when we were young, like 10, 11, a year apart in elementary school. But I think the way we really found music in each other is high school chorus, right, Emily?

Yeah. And then we decided that we would get together. We became friends with like a group of friends that were like cross grades at all, had the commonality of course. And we were going to do like a talent show. We got together in my mom's basement and we started learning cover songs. And for me, that harmony was, you know, kind of blew my mind. And I didn't know how to sing harmony yet. I was in the choir at church, but I just would just do exactly

what my choir director told me. I didn't understand like, how do you write the part? You know? So Emily was already doing that. And her family was already singing in harmony with each other. I found it in the harmony, like in Emily's keen sense of harmony

and just the naturalness of how it just comes out. I was like, oh wow, that's the magic of music, of this thing. Which was, you know, for a high schooler, 16, 15 years old, it was intense. Wow. This is a completely random question, but you know how when you're in elementary school or high school, you always feel like people that are the year older than you are cooler your whole life? Like if I meet somebody right now, I'm 46, and they were a senior when I was a sophomore, so they're 48, I automatically think they're cooler. So like, do you still think Emily's cooler than you, because she's older than you?

Oh, God, don't ask her that question. I do. I think you always have the dynamic that you set when you're young together. So Emily's always like a year older, better at this, better at that, all that stuff, bigger hit songs, whatever. We have to promise to be like completely transparent in this interview because I am such a dork and Amy is so cool, you know? So that's like, wow. But there is that, there is the tier system in school where you just like, if you even

get to hang out at the lunchroom with someone in an older, you're flying, you're high, you know, cause it's like, look at me with an older kid in the upper grade. Yeah. We're pretty close in age though. Like Amy almost catches up to me, but not quite. And then I've always had respect for her wisdom and her vision for things, how to make things happen.

And also if you see me crying, and I may cry emotionally, but I just tried false eyelashes. No, you did not. Yes, I did. Look at my eyeball. Okay. What in the sand hill? This makes me feel good for some reason. This is the best thing. Emily, tell us the story right now. Okay. It's a phase she's in.

She's doing false lashes and fractal guitar effects. And my eye is, yeah, it's true. And we'll get to the fractal later. It's like a new level for Indigo Girls. Did you do this yourself? Did you go, did you- No, I went, I'm gonna tell you. I went to a professional and who advised me where to go

was none other than Carrie, Amy's life partner. Oh. And actually she's really great, but you know, I'm a redhead and I'm, I'm compromised and I am, I'm sensitive and I don't know, I don't know what happened, but, so I have blonde eyelashes, you know? And I like to wear mascara. This is so...

Should we talk about it? It's awesome. I think it's the best thing. It's just the best thing that's ever happened. It's so dimensional. Yeah. Okay. So yeah, this is me, dimensional.

She's always been the femme. All things being relative, that's probably true. True. Yeah. So I like to wear mascara. I don't like my eyelashes to be invisible, but putting on mascara is a drag. And then I started to watch, I watched a lot of women's college basketball. And I started to notice that all those young women are wearing false eyelashes. Yes.

But those gals can carry them like an inch long. So I was like, I can't do that. But that's cool. That looks good to me. So I went and Carrie gave me this recommendation. And at first I got the mascara look. OK. Which is very not, you know, they have to place single eyelashes on. Yes. I know this well.

Emily, I've lived this life. I've lived this life. We'll talk about you later. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I look so anyway. This next time I was like, I said to her, let's just up the game a little. What can you offer that's not like the basketball players, but that's a little bit fuller? And now my eye is killing me and I just cry all the time out of my left eye. I'm just going to send you an email after this with all the answers to this. Okay. Okay, okay, good. So you two were born a year before we even had the word transgender, five years before

the Stonewall riots, 10 years before any out queer person ever held political office. You came of age during the HIV AIDS epidemic, which they were then calling the gay plague. The world you came out in is so different than the world that I came out in. And that difference was created in part by you, which is so wild. How are people who came out when you did different than people who come out now? Like, what is the difference that you feel and see? That's a good question. There's some things that are similar. I'll say like kids that are in certain areas of

the country or live in certain families or go to certain churches really still have the roughest time ever. So that's a similarity. But the difference would be, I feel like access to language, for one thing, we didn't know what the word gay meant really when we were kids. We were like, is that bestiality? Like what, you know, because we were in suburban south. Now when you come out, you understand that there's sexuality and there's gender and that's different. And you understand, you have the grasp of all these things about gender dysphoria, gender fluidity, bisexuality, trans issues

are in the forefront, which they should be. So for me, I think the most important difference, the thing that helped me the most when I got older was all of a sudden having all this language to talk about where I was at. I also think you can reach out through the internet and find some mentors. I mean, when you're suffering, you don't have anybody to turn to where you live. You don't have any role models. There's so many role models and there's so much information. Emily's probably got some. I agree with everything you've said. And because through the internet or through community groups that can focus on queer community, I think maybe people who are coming out don't have to deal so much with the self-hatred

and self-homophobia that I'll speak for my own self that I still deal with. I think the more you have a community out there, especially if you have access, and I'm not talking about kids in a rural or a super evangelical Christian or any kind of household that makes it as difficult as it ever was, but for kids who have... where I live, it's pretty progressive and there's queer alliances and even kids who lean more towards heteronormative belong to these groups. And so there's more of a sense of, I have a place where I can be. When I was coming up, all I heard was, you're different, you'll never be validated. What are we going to do with this band when we got signed? We can't sell their sexuality as women and all these things.

I still am unraveling that. So I think that's a difference too. Some of the young people I know who come out, they're still overjoyed and happy and they didn't have to fight this dark internal battle. I have that with Glennon. I have like a lot of internalized homophobia that still lives in me today. And Glennon grew up with straight privilege and has always been fighting for gay rights

for the longest time. She was marching at gay pride Parades before I was. And I just think that that's so interesting. Like, I look at her and sometimes I think. Not fuck you, because I would never say that, but like, really? Like, you just got here and you feel free. And I've been I've been keeping myself in this homophobic cage for so long. I don't know, I just think it's really interesting.

And you know, you both have said that you are a little scared of your own gayness. Which is different than being scared of homophobia. Yes. What does it mean to be scared of your own gayness? Well, it's internalized homophobia. It means you're scared of what you really are. And sometimes you don't want to face it. And I think when you're young, you don't really know what it means and how to talk about it and all that. But I would say, Abby, that we may have that self-hate thing.

But Glennon, one of the things about you is that you went through this very compacted experience of falling in love, getting sober, falling in love, and having to really fight for what you really wanted to be. And I often think that people who have those intense fights feel a sort of freedom that you don't feel the same way when you have this graduated experience like we've had over the years of like, trying to unravel everything, knowing we were gay, and it not being this compacted experience

when all of a sudden you have this relief of like, oh my God, I'm finally free. I didn't realize I'm celebrating who I am, you know? And for us, it's kind of like we were just not able to celebrate for so long, you know, that we got conditioned to that. Like that's just, we were taught that you don't celebrate it for, I mean, years. I mean, just even if our parents didn't teach us that, like Emily's parents didn't teach her that she shouldn't celebrate that, they were progressive. And my parents were not happy with it at first, but they were awesome later in my life.

But you just get the sense from something, you're just conditioned. Everybody knows that. Society is like, trying to tamp you down all the time, no matter what you are. It's interesting though, what you say, Abby, about talking to Glennon about this and straight privilege. I have a crystallized fear deep in me because my wife does not identify as a lesbian and she never had a girlfriend girlfriend and it's terrifying to

me that she would go back to a man, even though we're married and committed and everything. But those fears are so primal and that fear comes from not feeling good enough as a gay person. She respects the fact that she's had straight privilege, but she identifies as queer, but not lesbian. And so, she would love whomever she loved. And I can't get out of that fear yet. I don't have much time left. I feel like sometimes to get out of that fear. That's how deep they are. You could take them to your grave.

What do you think? Do you feel that way about me not? No, because I know how you feel about men in general. Yeah, she knows for sure I'm not going back to a man. I might be alone for the rest of my life. I think that you have been in a cage for so many seconds of your life that it doesn't matter to me. I know that we are going to be together forever. And of course I just, I have that fear in general because of my own unworthiness complex that I've built over the course of my life.

But I do think that there for you, you need to have the freedom to not put yourself into another box. Right, cause then I'd have to get out of it if sometime like it feels like painting myself into a corner. Well, it's the same with gender too. Like you're-

Gender, yeah. I don't understand gender either. It's very confusing. Yeah, but my thought experiment, y'all, is like when we try to figure out like, well, what are you? We still have these conversations. It's like, okay, if I had to be on the bachelorette and they were like, you gotta pick your people

that are gonna be here, sorry, like you gotta pick your people. I would choose, say, okay, women can be there and non-binary people can be there. That's who I would choose, say, okay, women can be there and non-binary people can be there. That's who I would choose. So that is something, right? That is something. I mean, we were watching Hacks a couple of weeks ago

and this non-binary person came on the screen and she said, that is a beautiful person. And I looked at her and it was like, it was the first time that I was like, wait a second, that's my lane. You're not allowed to talk about other people who are in my lane. Like, what the fuck?

She looked at me and she's like, she saw my like sincere concern. She's like, what? Oh, no, I don't, no, no. I, you know, and was trying to back out of it. But. What are you? Wow, wow, wow. Yeah. Still figuring to back out of it. Yeah. But. What are you? Wow, wow, wow.

Yeah. Still figuring it out. Still figuring it out. Because I didn't. Well, Glennon. We all love it. Glennon, do you, has any of, do you, can you trace back in your life and see where this might have been blossoming in you early on?

Or do you feel like, um, because of your negative experiences with men, that sort of shaped your vision towards loving women in a deeper way? I'm Jordan Robinson, host of the new podcast, The Women's Hoop Show. Each episode, I'll be joined by a rotating group of women's basketball experts to talk WNBA, college hoops, the new Unrivaled League, and the shifting landscape of the sport. The game is growing and so are we. Listen to and follow The Women's Hoop Show and Odyssey podcast, available now for free on the Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcast.

So a couple things. This is a complicated conversation. All right. Sometimes when I get on the interwebs and start talking about like fluidity and choice and whatever, usually someone calls like Brandy calls me and says, slow down. You're not allowed to talk like that. Well, actually, in reality, she just called and said, let's talk this through. Tell me what you're thinking and I'll tell you what I think. And her points were very well, you know, she, there are people in the, in, in churches and in

places where when you start talking about maybe I don't identify with born this way, maybe there is a fluidity and maybe there's choice involved, then the people who are sending their kids to conversion therapy use that as an excuse. Like it's like the people from the Bible Belt need the excuse that God made you this way in order to allow their children to be who they are. So I get all of that. But yeah, but you that's there's anything and everything that can be used in bad ways. Like don't worry about that. Okay.

Yeah. Well, here's the truth. You just gotta speak your truth to power. I've never told anyone this before, including Abby, but since Amy and Emily are here, I'm going to tell you. This is exciting. So I'm sweating again. So I remember being very, very young, like 12, 13, maybe younger, and finding

and finding Playboys. Oh! Yes! And being like... Wow! Okay? I know. I'm so happy.

Okay. Well, I don't know what it means. Well, wait, what do you mean by wow? Just being like, I understand understand why people like this magazine. This is very interesting and beautiful. I wonder, because this might have been around the time that you started to delve into bulimia. Yeah. I mean, so then I shut down all of my sexuality and body and almost killed myself and married a bunch of men.

And then, but yeah, it's interesting, You just married one man. Yeah. It felt like so many. Oh wait, are you Catholic? A bunch of men. I was Catholic. Yes, I was. Okay, so you can't discount the influence of the church. Yeah. The greatest woman that ever lived was a virgin. And then you carry on from there. I was named after her. Do you know that the original meaning of the word virgin had nothing to do with sex and original meaning was to belong to oneself?

Oh, I love that. So that changes that. So that changes that. I love that. Yeah. What is these, the influence, the power of these systemic like structures that affect us, the church, social norms, binary thinking, fear about fluidity in so many ways. You take a step back and look at the power of those forces on us. That's why we need community because together we can navigate that, tackle that and affirm our validity as human beings, our dignity. So that's why we need community.

I loved church. When I was three, I knew all of the church songs. I stood on the pews with my hands on the back of the pew in front of me. I was loud. I was into it. And then over time, as soon as I started to like feel my sexuality coming to the surface, I fucking hated myself. You know, like I felt that shame and I, and I embodied it in my cells and like the molecular makeup of who I am, you know, and then I get to be 16 years old and I, this is actually the first time I ever acknowledged outwardly,

not with words, but with action to my mom. We were in a store and y'all's CD was at the checkout line. And I picked up your CD and my sister Laura, who's a little bit older than me, she's 10 years older than me and she's gay, I came out first, but she listened to you all. And I grabbed the CD and I said to my mom, can I buy this?

Can you buy this for me? And she said, yeah. And that was like one of the most important moments of my life. It was like me taking ownership of myself. So you were trying to tell her something too, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, I didn't come out to her

for like six years after that, but still it was, it was like one of the most important moments of my life and y'all were a big part of it. Do you all think there's room for the conversation of choice and fluidity? Do you feel like there are forces in the world? Adrienne Rich used to say, I'm a lesbian for political reasons. Or, you know, the second wave of feminism, they used to say that, oh God, liberation is the goal and lesbianism is the way or something. Like, that there have been times where being a lesbian

by choice, not in a way that it was like, I would be different if I could, but I was born this way. Cause there's some sort of apologetic like vibe. It's not like I would be different, but I'm gay. No, this is the best life. This is the best choice. This is on purpose, kind of. Do you feel that that's dangerous to the conversation or do you believe in that? I guess it's the... But in the context of the second wave, it was a political statement like separatism was. We need a safe space. Men are doing a lot of harm and politically, we need to be liberated from that

power in order to be ourselves, actualize who we really are. And I think lesbianism was used as a term equated with separatism, right? So I think it's like totally like maybe a different context than like now. I don't know what the science is, but I know that I feel like you can be born in many different ways on the spectrum of who you're attracted to, right? So if you're born kind of in the middle, your nurturing can might push you one way or the other maybe, or you can be taught that it's not cool to be in the middle and that's a sin too. Or your gender can be forced on you when you don't feel that gender. There's like so many circumstances. I guess I feel like things are more fluid than we know.

You know, but... But I think the political movements are like second wave. I think they were making a point, you know, which is so different from now. I think it's still relevant. Don't you think, Emily? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, there was a time when identity politics became very, very important, you know, as a way to separate from the powers that be. And I also think that, and this is just my opinion, but in order to enter a sexual relationship, it's not really a choice.

If somebody of the same sex makes you feel good or anybody makes you feel good or you have a connection through your body, you don't really go, okay, now I'm going to like this. I think the choice is more if you decide to enter into a committed relationship or can anybody elaborate on that? I know, but you're not being open to it at all. The choice is to shut down. You could shut it down. I shut it down for a long time. So the choice is to shut it down or not. That makes sense. But I also think it's a weird sort of thought process. But I think when you come up with, I came up with feeling at some point the bubble was burst and I was like feeling self-hatred about having, being so masculine, right?

It's completely separate from who I was attracted to, right? And I became unfree because I was like, oh, now I hate myself, great. You know, just physically hate my body, right? It has nothing to do with who I want to go out with. And then I became attracted to women, but the self-hate, I could be, it's a weird, I don't even know how you unwind it in our generation, but we had so much self-loathing

that when you found this safety with a woman and you found this love and you're in love and you're sexually attracted too. But also for me, I was attracted to men as well, but I felt completely unworthy of that. Oh. See what I'm saying? Like the self-hate of my body and the self-hate of me not being a good enough woman and the wanting also to kind of be a guy, that kind of fluidity did not go hand in hand with

having a boyfriend, right? So I think there's something unraveling to be done for the total freedom that you might want to feel. Like you can be completely attracted to the opposite sex, you can be attracted to the same sex, you can be attracted to people that are gender queer, whatever you want. There should be nothing limiting you that has to do with you not liking yourself and thinking that you're unworthy. And for our generation, it's so different from the young generation now. Like my nephew is bisexual, he's just like, I love who I love. You know what I'm saying?

And he's a six-foot, you know, like, big guy, you know? Like, actor, big guy, Ren Faire, stage fighting. And he's just like, men are beautiful. You know, and I'm like, oh my God, I love you. Like, you... That's what I wanted to be. Yeah. And I had a boyfriend for a while who... who I really loved after I had a girlfriend, but I didn't want to marry him, so I had to just tell him that.

And I loved him so much. But I knew that it was not where I wanted to be, right, with him and everything. But I felt so, I just didn't feel like I was also worthy. You know, even though he didn't, he was like, I love the way you are. You know, I love lesbians, whatever, you know, whatever he meant. I love masculine women is what he meant, right? Yeah.

This week's- But I didn't love masculine women. Right? Wow. But then I have friends where the couple is like a masculine woman and a feminine guy, right? A feminine guy. And some of my friends will be like,

oh, they should just be gay. And I'm like, no, they're actually, like, can't you open your mind? Like they're in love with each other. It's not, they're not covering up being gay. They actually love, this is who they wanna be with. And I think we, even us as gay people get stuck in that place of like,

well, if you're this way and that way, you must just be in the closet, you know? And it's like, no, actually, there's feminine straight men, you know, and masculine straight women. I remember when Ani came out as bisexual or whatever she would term it now. And like the lesbian community just lost their shit because it's like that we only have so many of us and we've lost one of our own. You know, I remember that, you know, I didn't feel that way, of course, but I understand that that fear and so identity, I don't we're so wrapped up in identity. And I think it's probably a primal thing, like knowing your place in the tribe and are you going to go out and pick the berries or are you going to like draw on the cave wall or what? You know what I mean? You have to be able

to recognize your place in your tribe or else you're fucked. So I think a lot of this like focus on, it's not all because the more I say this and think about it as I say it, but there is a lot to do with where do I belong in a tribe? It's very, very compromising and fear inducing to think that you either you don't belong or you've lost someone who you thought belonged, goes way, way back in that part of your brain. And my goodness, Amy, what you just said,

I'm more masculine, I have more masculine tendencies. And so of course, no straight man who would wanna be with women would ever want me. So it felt like this is, the way you articulated that was like the most true thing that I have heard about my own gender and sexuality and how they are in relationship to each other, that it's like, well, I can't be that.

Nobody will want me over here. So of course then I'll just, I have to be gay. Interesting. Yeah, and it's like when we say that, people say, oh, you're just, you know, that's dangerous to say that because then it's like saying, you really wanna be straight. And if you just felt better about yourself, you could, but that's not the point, is it? No, it's dangerous to say that because then it's like saying you really want to be straight and if you just felt better about yourself you could but that's not the point.

No, it's not the point. It's like I want to be everything if I want to be everything. You know, like I have had sex with dudes and it wasn't like the worst experience of my life. We think that I'm gayer than she is because I was like well actually it was the worst experience. Every time I tried. So Amy, do you identify as a woman? Because you've said in the past you're half and half, which by the way, just makes sense to me. I mean, I don't identify as a… I mean, my pronoun is she, but I don't… But that's just because I've fought so hard to honor the woman inside me.

I identify as a masculine female probably is the closest thing to it. But I really… But when I see my inner self, it's very much a guy, you know, like I know. But I've, but I know society has influenced that for so long as I was coming up that I have this benefit of the doubt that I give to the fact that I probably have misogyny drilled into me at an early age.

Right? And so I'm I probably have misogyny drilled into me at an early age, right? And so I'm just trying to welcome that feminine, right? And just be identified as a she. But I can theoretically see the idea of like transitioning to a guy and what that would mean, but it doesn't work for me for some reason. I've thought about it. It doesn't work for me. And I think it's thought about it. It doesn't work for me. And I think it's because I could not really feel completely a guy either. And so I don't

want to go through all that and just get on the other side of it and be like, well, shit, I don't really feel like a guy either. Here's another costume. I just think it's all so mixed up inside me that I have to just be like, no, no, this is just who I am. Like this is what you get. And I got to just be like, no, no, this is just who I am. Like, this is what you get. Yeah. And I got to just learn to love that. Yeah. You know, and I have friends that have transitioned and they're so completely who they are,

you know, that I'm like, yes, that's, that's like the prime example of like, what, what, when it works, you know, and when you become the true being reflected on the outside that you feel in the inside, right? And it's amazing to see that and it's joyful and I celebrate it, but I don't think I could get there. Do you love or hate the fluidity of that for you? Well, theoretically, I love it. But the 12 year old in me hates it, you know, or the 14 year old, I guess.

Yeah. And because we all want to belong somewhere. That's why people want to know your identity. Who do you belong to? But then who do you belong to automatically creates an enemy. It's like if you're in something, the only reason to be in something is to know who's not in that something. Right?

Well, you can look at it differently though, because true tribal thought from an indigenous perspective doesn't have to be that. I think that's a white perspective of what tribal is, honestly. And I think you just have to look at tribe as this is my community of people that work together to create something and help each other. And there are other communities over here that do the same thing. And sometimes we get together and have a party and try to achieve something even bigger. It's just functional. Like you have to have these tribes that are, you know, situated in some way that's convenient

to really help each other out and really be there for each other and build something and create Your life and have a journey and then these these other tribes are just as worthy and it's not us and them Mmm, beautiful. You're so right. That's just all whiteness. That's good. So Emily you're sober, right? Yeah, so good. Yeah Tell us about how you got sober. Did you have a rock bottom? What was that decision and process for you? I have alcoholism on both sides of my family, both sets of grandparents. My grandmother on my dad's side died when he was five, so I don't know. But all the other grandparents

were alcoholics. I was aware of that. My parents were very moderate with alcohol. Growing up, there was no alcohol is evil and you should never have it or anything like that. So I always had that in the back of my mind, but that was destined to be alcoholic. And I didn't know it. But when we played bars and stuff and we did shots from the stage, this is like when we were, I don't know it, but when we played bars and stuff and we did shots from the stage, this is like when we were, I don't know, babies. Drinking was such a social part of what we did for work. And then I had a very social life. I thought I was an extrovert.

I was really just an alcoholic. I was not an extrovert. I think that that might be me too. Oh my God. just an alcoholic. I was not an extrovert. I think that that might be me too. Oh my God. I thought I was so funny and so charming and so attractive, but I was just drunk. I did have a rock bottom. The truth is that Amy, she knew I was alcoholic and she came to me, I think, at least two times and maybe three. This is funny, but I always liken it to the way Peter denied Jesus three times. When I look back on it, it's very deep that I lied to Amy. I don't have a problem. I love to drink, but it's classic that I was pretty close to death very shortly.

Both my mother and my little sister who had addiction and eating disorder, she died when she was 29 or 30 and they were both dead. And towards the end of my drinking, I started dreaming about them every night. They were like, no, come on. I got to the point where I was like, oh, I might die. Okay, that's cool. That's fine. Whatever. Amy can attest to how terrible it was when I was drinking, all the excuses I made, my irresponsibility, not showing up. But I was terrified. I think all alcoholics are terrified to admit that they're alcoholics.

I had a friend who went into the program way, way before I did and she gave me my first blue book and she was like, I don't really want to talk about the program because that's anyway. She gave me that book and it was like on fire. I wouldn't touch it. It sat there on a little altar. And then I was like, oh, well, I'm not like that. It's classic. And then I started reading the stories because I just could not. It's like going to see personal best. You can't stay away from it, you know? You've got to read the stories eventually. And then I was like, I can't relate to that. But then at the end, like everybody knew I was just fucked up and dying and Amy was going to quit the band. And, you know, everything was falling apart for me.

And I tried to hide it so much and you just can't. And then in the end, there was an intervention and actually Amy wasn't at that intervention because I think that my wife knew that I wouldn't be able to be honest. I was so vulnerable to Amy and to my best friend who was not at the intervention. And I know that that, I believe that that hurt you, Amy, because you had a lot to testify to and to, but I don't think in that moment I had the courage, strength, I was so bitterly rageful and angry. But I had an intervention in there.

I thought I was going to get on a plane and go to some shows. We had shows booked. I had my bags packed. All of a sudden, there's a knock on the door. It's my dad and my sister and our manager and the leader and a friend of mine who I was trying to get sober with, who was just an incredible sobriety angel to me. And then I was like, okay, well, okay, well, this is great, but I got to get on a plane. And they're like, no, there's no plane. You're going to go to this hospital and they're going to check out your body to make sure you're okay, and then you're going to go to rehab. But prior to this, I knew I was alcoholic. I'd go over to my sister's house and go, I'm an alcoholic, so I have to drink, okay?

And then I would make them pour me a bourbon. I have to drink. I'm an alcoholic. But that was my way of slowly admitting. And then this intervention happened. Because prior to that, I had called this rehab center and I had talked to this guy. He was like a brother in the Catholic community. And I was always drunk when I called him.

Like, okay, yeah, what's it like? And what do you do? And I'm sure he dealt with people like me all the time. And I decided I would go outpatient for 30 days. That's what I would do. But then the intervention happened. They take me off to the hospital. I'm okay. I don't have any other addictions. And then I'm off to rehab and I stayed there for three months and I couldn't have gotten sober without it. And I tried, but I had such privilege and such access and such false pride and shame. I didn't know the shame I had until I got sober and I couldn't bear to tell anybody that I was not a hallway. The change that happens between finally admitting

it and getting help, because I truly believe I couldn't have gotten sober without rehab. And now the fact that I can talk about it openly is just, it's kind of miraculous to me. And then Amy and I went to therapy after that. So that Amy could, yeah, so that Amy- So you could work through your anger probably, right? Once or twice. Once or twice. How did that go? Well, I think twice.

Twice. So Amy, you can talk about that experience, but I can tell you that in sobriety, well, it's the hardest fucking thing I've ever done. I shouldn't have pride about it, but I'm kind of proud I've stuck to something this long and done the work. It's so hard sometimes. It's so hard. You just want to get out quickly and you can't anymore and you have to sit through a lot

of discomfort. The other thing I'm learning now is I lost a whole chunk of my development, intellectual development, my evolution as a human being. I just deprived myself of that in that time that I was drinking so hard. So now I feel a lot of catching up and I feel a lot of unworthiness because I'm behind and things like that. So that's now. But to be sober, to wake up feeling good, to know that you're not self-destructing to know that you can be like, now I'm accountable to Amy, responsible to us and to all the people and to my family. I never would have had my wife, she would have left me,

she was going to, or my child and all the most beautiful things in life have come from sobriety. And Amy, was it hard for you? Cause this is like your best friend, your business. What was it like going through that from your perspective? I mean, it was super rough. But you know, I have to say to start out with it, it is a huge achievement to get sober,

I think. And huge. Everyone that gets sober like that should be proud of it. I know you're taught, you know, humility and all that stuff. And I had stopped drinking when I was about 30, which, and I didn't do a program or anything. I mean, people that I went to Al-Anon with are always saying you should have gone to AA. And I didn't do a program or anything. People that I went to Al-Anon with are always saying, you should have gone to AA. But I stopped drinking because everybody I knew was dying and too drunk.

And Emily was drunk all the time and I just needed to differentiate. And I had moved to the mountains and was drinking alone every night. And my best friend, Tanner, she said, well, we're both going to just stop drinking at the same time. So we made this pact. And I think I just never, I just, I have alcoholism in my family, but I don't think I have the, I mean, I'm addictive to some, in some degree, but it was just easier for me. I understand the monumental task of getting sober that Emily was up against. And I think it's a miracle, honestly, because I saw her before that. And I had that vision of like,

I'd rather die than not be able to drink is what I heard from her over and over again, you know? I felt that. In action, in word, in everything. And so for me, towards the end, it was just like chaos. And I was afraid every morning that I'd wake up and hear that she had died in the middle of the night. Like, just the tour bus was crazy because Emily would fall out of her bunk or things would happen that were just unmanageable and crazy. And I went to Al-Anon actually to help me just stay in the band for a couple of years.

But I think the thing that was the hardest thing for me about all of this was that I would talk to my manager, I would talk to Emily's friends. No one believed me for years. No one believed me. So I think that's the only thing that bothered me about the intervention because I was like, wait a minute, I'm the only one that has been talking about this. And all of a sudden you guys have a wake up call. Like we, this should have been done three years ago. Like what is, and everybody was fighting me on it. Even, even our manager who I was like, Russell, I swear to God, you're not out here, but you need to be. She is not

going to survive this, and you are enabling it by just letting us carry on and you're making money off of us. You need to stop. He was in full denial, right? And I was like, no one would listen to me, right? And so that was the hardest thing because I thought I was crazy. And instead people be like, ah, you know, you don't drinks, you don't understand, you know, you know, we know you're not a partier, so you just can't like, deal with it. And I'm like, I'm not a partier because I can't deal with that. Right. There's a reason I'm not. And someone's got to keep it in the control. I mean, I really just was like, when Emily

gets sober, I'll start drinking again because then, you know, I don't need to be like in control of the situation anymore. Cause I think I felt like, wow, someone needs to be sober right now because it is like a mess, you know? And I think our audience, you know, was never really aware of it, but it's like stuff was just going downhill

and our music was, the shows weren't as good. And after the shows was always like a potential scene outside the tour bus, you know? And so I was just like, oh my God, no one understands what's going on, but me. It just felt like not even the people in our crew, you know, because everybody was just partying, right? And so for me, it just felt like,

I felt a little crazy, you know, and insane. But I also knew after learning, you know, going to the Aladon and stuff and doing my own work, that I was like part of the problem too. Because I'm just, I just kept being confrontational, right? Instead of like letting Emily find her own answers in her own way, I was like judgmental, judgmental, judgmental, judgmental, all the time, right? Which is kind of my, it's like my go-to anyway, because like the way I was raised

was by people who were judgmental, some people. So I contributed in so many ways to that shame and that constant thing, because I would just be like, well, I'm gonna be in the band anyway, but I'm gonna be judgy all the time. What I should have just done is like walk away. walk away. I should have just walked away from it because it doesn't help to just make someone feel shame over and over again. And so we were all in our own little system of bad stuff. Family. Yeah. Family. It was family. And I didn't want to

leave it, but at some point I had decided. And I was like, I'm just going to, I can't do this anymore because it's just enabling, this whole system is being enabled by me continuing to play in the band. Because it's just like, it means that everything can just feel normal all the time. We're making a lot of money, we're, you know, you can sleep all day and then sing your gig and then get drunk and then sleep all day and, you know, all that stuff. And at the time I also had like, oh my God, I had just gotten through this terrible bout with endometriosis and I had 20 pounds less

and couldn't eat anything. And that's endometriosis, stress is like a contributor to that, I was losing organs. So I was like, it was a crazy time that feels crazier when both of us are just inside this time and we both know it's going crazy, but no one else on the outside does, right? So we're just kind of in our own little world trying to like muscle through. Everybody's making money off the Indigo Girls. And we are too.

And it all becomes like that absurd to me, you know, like that absurd. Like we're not playing music for joy right now. We're playing music because it's all we know how to do to survive, you know, in every way, spiritually, you know, your soul and all that stuff. But I think that's just what we all do. We all get in denial about different things and it had to happen the way it happened, I think, or it wouldn't have been such a great recovery. That's right. Because now it's like, you know, we fought and Emily fought really super hard. People that I know that have gotten through it, I'm just blown away by their strength.

Yeah. through it. I'm just blown away by their strength. People I know that were addicts and heroin addicts or meth addicts or whatever. And I see them recover and I'm just like, oh my God, that's so hard. It's a miracle. Like, how did you do that? I can't even stop eating chocolate. I want to hear about y'all's experience too, if you don't mind. Oh, with sobriety? Yeah, with alcohol and sobriety.

Yeah, you know how you're constantly looking back on your life and like, I feel like everything's just an episode of like, I see dead people. Like somebody changes perspective. I look back on my life and I'm like, wait, I need to write another memoir. So I don't know.

I feel like I was probably suppressing sexuality. That's what I think. Became bulimic when I was 10. And that just morphed into alcoholism. And I got sober when I was 25. And it was a miracle too. I mean, when I hear you guys talking, it reminds me of me and my sister.

Although Amy would be my sister and I would be Emily. And it is, it was so bad that every day feels like a miracle now. It's like, it's like when a winter is so freaking dark and then spring comes and you're like, I feel grateful for it because it reminds me of what you were talking about before Amy, when there's like a intense fight for something.

Like my intense fight for being free sexually and then feeling so empowered by it all the time. That's how sobriety felt to me. Because I fought so hard for mental health. I walk around most days like, holy shit, I am vertical. Everybody else, everybody else needs other things. I know. And it's so cool. And I'm like, we're vertical.

It's so cool because she got sober 20 years ago. We're not on the lam. She still feels this way. This is a 20 year veteran. No one's arresting me today. Like if I get, I'm not going to jail again. Like most likely. I know. Blue lights. Exactly. I'm like,'m not going to jail again. Like most likely. I know, blue lights.

Exactly. I'm like, I'm sober, act sober, act sober, Glennon. I'm like, no, I am sober. I don't think I'm sober. How do sober people act? But I want to just talk about spirituality a little bit because you brought up spirituality, Amy. And in one of my favorite songs, which, I mean, I spent the week trying to figure that

out. It's impossible to decide. In second time around, you talk about being God fearing lesbians, which is like, I don't know why, just that hits. So from your lives right now, from your perspectives right now, who is this God? Do you still believe in a God? Who is this God for each of you? And are you still afraid of her? Great question. You go first, Emily.

Oh my God. Okay. I don't like the word God. I don't like any type of language that tries to describe what this thing is that's beyond human comprehension, any of that. So there's not really a word for what I believe, but I believe in…it's more like a Holy Spirit. spirit. I believe in science and I believe in the presence of something that is not of the physical world that's in relationship to the physical world and to all of us. I believe in regeneration and energy isn't lost. I just feel like there's an incomprehensible relationship between energy, spirituality, and the physical world, which is so awesome. And I know that I got help outside of myself, not only my community and people, to get sober

and to any struggle I have in my life. I know that when I engage in the relationship with this spirit, I'm able to get help, I'm able to get wisdom, and I have almost an unshakable belief except if I'm sick, if I get COVID or something or what happens in the world or if children are shot in schools, then I'm like, I don't know if I really believe this. And then I just have to get back centered. But so that's my belief. There is something, it is more powerful, wise,

incomprehensible than any of us can know. And it's not because I have to believe it, it's because it has shown itself to me in my life and in other people's lives. Amy? I don't really mind if people say God or whatever word they want to use. It doesn't bother me. Because I think we all have constructs that we need to live. You know, Joseph Campbell, the myth and all that stuff. But I agree with Emily that it's so limitless. It's a great mystery. I think the light is within all of us, as the Quakers say, and we all have it. So whatever you call God is within us. But my

friend Katie Pruitt, the songwriter, was asking, she's a recovering Catholic, and she was like, she was like, you know, where do you find the divine? And I was like, in nature, in science as Emily does, I mean, I think science is like a freaking miracle. I find it in looking in the stars, you know, and NASA and looking at like the Jet Propulsion Lab and JPL women that do all that research. I find it in Christ the Tippet. In people that have that, that are in touch, I find it there. But nature is my main thing. I was raised Methodist though, and so I have this construct that I still adhere to quite a bit and cling to. I mean, I still have a relationship with my Jesus, you know, who is, I guess, non-binary maybe and just called Jesus. I don't know. I have a Southern built-in filter that's like a Southern thing where you go to church three days a week, but all the time

you're interpreting it your own way in order to gather what you need to be strong. I loved as Abby, I loved Youth Group, I loved Friday Night Skating, I loved Bible School, I loved Wednesday Night Supper. It's all like, I love it. I never don't love it, but I was taught some pretty bad things as well. But the good stuff has stayed with me equally. So I'm still kind of a churchy person sometimes, and I hope the Methodists can get their shit together and start welcoming gay people into the true Methodist church. I think curiosity is a divine thing. I think our spirit,

I think our great mystery and our God, whoever that is, whatever that is, what energy it is reveals itself in our curiosity. So that's the beautiful thing that we have in common with animals too. Like dogs are curious, people are curious, ants are curious, whatever. Curiosity binds us together. And then my you know, my partner Carrie, she always, whenever things really bad happen or someone's having a really hard time, she always, she says like something that's really comforting. I don't know if

it's true, but it's comforting. She always says, remember they have their higher power. You know, everyone has their higher power. Those kids that died, they have their higher power. You know, in, they have their higher power. In other words, we see what's in front of us in our little unfelt world, what we only have. But we don't see this bigger thing of the souls of those kids or all this stuff. And it's not comforting when you lose somebody,

but it's the wisdom of like that, as Emily says, the long view and like just letting that comfort you sometimes is okay, even in the face of like that, as Emily says, you know, the long view and like just letting that comfort you sometimes, you know, is okay, even in the face of like really hard stuff, you know. So you too, I mean, I think the themes of this hour and the themes of my life, which have been freedom in faith, freedom in sexuality, freedom in sobriety. You too have been my community in freeing myself in all three of those areas. And I know that you don't know me as well, because I know you,

but you've walked me to freedom in all three of those areas. And I will be grateful for you forever. I will continue to listen to you every all three of those areas. And I will be grateful for you forever. I will continue to listen to you every single day of my life. And thank you. We love you. We love you very much.

You've brought so much love and joy into our lives. You're the best. I feel the same way about y'all. I feel the same exact way. You're just like your lights in the world and you're so human, your fallibilities and your vulnerabilities, but you just keep shining y'all's lights. It's moving to me. It's not my false eyelashes. I feel moved. Thank you for that. Yeah. Thanks for all the work y'all do. I mean, y'all are mentors to a lot of people and

you do a lot of great work and I'm thankful for it. I really am. Me too. Thank you both. And I just forgot that we also have a pod squad listening. So also thank you, pod squad. I literally forgot that. Yeah. We need to wrap it up. Okay, okay. Bye. We'll be back next time. Bye. Love you. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us.

If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey,

or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful.

We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burman, and the show is produced by Lauren Lograsso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.