We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Jen Hatmaker & Tyler Merritt Double Date!

Episode Date: April 14, 2022

Jen Hatmaker is back with the new man in her life–actor, author, and activist Tyler Merritt–for a double date with Glennon and Abby discussing:   1. How Jen and Tyler met, what first attracted Jen and Tyler to each other–and who made the first move.   2. How not knowing any “dating rules” led Jen to jumpstart the “define the relationship” step.   3. The triggers for Jen that led to an early relationship “wobble” and how Jen is navigating issues of trust and safety after her divorce.  4. The joys and challenges of dating as two fully formed grown up adults.  5. Jen, Tyler, Abby, and Glennon each share the one thing they love most about their partners.  About Jen:  Jen Hatmaker is the New York Times bestselling author of For the Love and Fierce, Free, and Full of Fire, along with twelve other books. She hosts the award-winning For the Love podcast, is the delighted curator of the Jen Hatmaker Book Club, and leader of a tightly knit online community where she reaches millions of people each week. Jen is a co-founder of Legacy Collective, a giving organization that grants millions of dollars toward sustainable projects around the world. She is a mom to five kids and lives happily just outside Austin, Texas. To learn more about Jen, visit www.jenhatmaker.com. TW: @JenHatmaker IG: @jenhatmaker About Tyler: Tyler Merritt is a Nashville-based actor, activist, cancer survivor, founder of The Tyler Merritt Project, and author of "I TAKE MY COFFEE BLACK: REFLECTIONS ON TUPAC, MUSICAL THEATER, FAITH AND BEING BLACK IN AMERICA." Over the course of his career, Tyler has gained recognition through notable acting projects including "Kevin Probably Saves The World," "Outer Banks," and "The Outsider," as well as serving as the face of the worldwide teaching curriculum for The Gospel Project for Kids. Tyler Merritt made headlines with his 2018 viral video "Before You Call The Cops," which has been viewed by over 60 million people worldwide and appeared on Jimmy Kimmel Live. As a 6’2'' dreadlocked Black man living inAmerica, where racial injustices continue to plague our society, Tyler has emerged as a steadfast activist in the face of racism. TW: @TTMProject IG: @thetylermerrittproject To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. Okay, welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. You came back again. Thank you. We are so excited.

So excited. Okay, so today we're doing a double date. A double date. And today I feel nervous. I do too. I feel nervous. Kinda. So do too.

The reason we feel nervous is because, so have you ever gone on a double date where you're going with your good friend, but then your good friend is bringing their new person. So you're like, I have to make a good impression on this person. I like me. I want to like that. I don't know how it's gonna go.

We've never had a conversation before. Okay, so this is another reason we should be nervous. It's because these two are in the early early. Yeah, their brains are Stop they are honeymooning right now basically. Do you remember those days when we I do I still I still think about those days often. Yeah, no, okay, let's tell the people who these people are Yes, they don't already know. Okay, on our double date, who we are meeting right now, so imagine us sitting, we've just walked into the restaurant, our friends are there.

Gen Hat Maker is there. Gen Hat Maker is the New York Times bestselling author of For the Love and Fears Free and Full of Fire, along with 12 other books. She's lowly host. She hosts the award winning For the Love podcast, is the delighted curator of the Jen Hatmaker book club and leader of a tightly knit online community where she reaches millions of people each week.

Jen is a co-founder of Legacy Collective, a giving organization that grants millions of dollars towards sustainable projects around the world. She is a mom to five kids and lives happily just outside Austin, Texas. And for new boyfriend, do we say boyfriend, right? What are you guys calling me? Well, this was my question too, and I asked Tyler recently, I'm like, what am I supposed to say? Because I'm 47. Like, do 47 year olds have boyfriends?

Like, I don't know if that's what we do. Yeah, you're boyfriend. Are you, Tyler says that is what we say. Okay, are you the man I'm dating? I don't really know how to do this. And he's like, you just say boyfriend. How about that? That's a solution.

Tyler. We walk into a room together and all the dudes are like, oh, she's hot. You need to be like, that's my boyfriend. I'll see you next up. Say that. Like, man, I'm dating. No, you need to be like, that's my dude.

Yeah. Right. It's a little bit more solid than just like, we're seeing each other. Yes. Or I don't really know what the terms are. I've, you know, I're not right. It's a little bit more solid than just like we're seeing each other. Yes. Or I don't really know what the terms are. I've, you know, I'm new here. So you were going to the introduction. It's okay if you just now say and with Jen with all the million things with 13 bucks, we have her boyfriend Tyler. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, thank you. We have the Tyler Merritt. I picked up Tyler's book. I

Take my coffee black opened it and didn't stop Tyler. You are so smart. You tricked me into learning so many things By by making it funny and then I'd be three pages past and I'd be like wait a minute I feel like I'm learning things about states That was history. Right. Right. Right. Tyler tricking me into learning history.

Yeah. Tyler Merritt is a Nashville-based actor, activist, cancer survivor, founder of the Tyler Merritt Project, an author of, I take my coffee black, reflections on two-pock, musical theater, faith, and being black in America. Over the course of his career, Tyler has gained recognition through notable acting projects, including Kevin probably saves the world, Outer Banks, which children love that show, and the outsider, as well as serving as the face of the worldwide teaching curriculum for

the Gospel Project for Kids. Tyler Merritt made headlines with this 2018 viral video before you call the cops, which has been viewed by over 60 million people worldwide. 60 million. That's more books than Jen has written. It certainly is, or salt. So tell us, how did you two meet?

I'm dying to know that. And this is one of the first times that you guys have really talked about your relationship together. Okay. So are you nervous? We've never talked together. Did you call each other and talk about what you were going to say and not say? No.

No. We had a meeting last night. I was getting it one thirty in Let me. We had a meeting last night. I was kidding. I was kidding. It's one thirty in the morning. Over. That's right.

Over face time about this. So last November at the beginning of November, we were both in New York. I was there for work. And Tyler was there for life and for fun. I was there with my publicist Heather and we had done a bunch of stuff and she's like, are we you want to go back to the airport? I'm like, I'm actually going to stay another night. I kind of want to be here. I want to see a show and I kind of want to see waitress. I just do. I think his dinner for Nettles is playing like the lead and I just kind of want to, I don't even have a ticket

yet. I'm just going to get one and I'm just going gonna go sit wherever. And she was like, you know what's weird? I have a brand new client and you would probably love him. But he's actually in New York right now by himself and he is going to see waitress tonight. And she's like, why don't I connect to you? I'm like, okay, sure. And so she connects us via text and so I reach out to Tyler.

I'm like, hey, let's like, let's meet for drinks beforehand. I didn't know Tyler didn't drink at the time. So that was a great start. Right. A superstar. Like, let's meet and have wine. He's like, well, you can. And so I don't even know how in the next thing I know, a ticket has shown up in my phone that he got.

So we go beforehand and we sit down over French fries and honey mustard and one wine and one water. And we just started talking and I was like, hmm, this is interesting. I assumed Tyler was gay, like he's single, he's only a musical theater guy, this is how Heather described it. Like some musical theater background and never been married. I'm like, oh, he's, I'm gonna only a musical theater guy. This is how Heather described it. Like some musical theater background

and never been married. I'm like, oh, he's, I'm gonna have a new gay best friend. Yes. Um, I'm not gonna talk. I'm not gonna talk. I'm, I am so okay with anybody thinking I'm gay and she knows I am super gay on paper. We talk about gay.

That's what he's saying. A new GOP. Yeah, yeah, yeah. talk about that. That's what he says. A new GOP. Yeah, that's right. That's right. We get together. And I know immediately he is not gay. Now, immediately went away. We were together like the whole night.

And but Tyler, just because to me, like this is the gold of the story, which is why you were there. I forgot to ask you on our meeting last night if you wanted to talk about this, but like why you had just decided that very week to go to New York by yourself, which now I know isn't even like you. At all. For me to be anywhere by myself, right? Right. Yeah. Yes. Yeah, so this is going to be a hard left right quick, good and I'll be hard left. So I was diagnosed with cancer right after I turned my book

in at the end of 2020, a rare form called LIFO SACOM. Where I had a 28 pound cancerous tumor in my abdomen. And it was during the pandemic, so I just thought I was gaining weight. But really what was happening is I started to lose weight and this tumor began to show itself more. And anyways, long story a little bit shorter, I had to remove at the end of 2020, went through a year, like half year recovery, already had my six month follow-up. It was gone, and I was feeling really good about life. And then in

that week of New York, my friend Megan Hilti, James Alvarhart, a handful of people had some Broadway things happening that weekend. And I was like, I don't think I'm gonna go. Like, eh, well, I had to go in that Monday to Vanderbilt to have a checkup. And my doctor said to me, very casually,

who I love him, very casually, because he'd been reading my book when super hyped was like, let's talk about the book. My friend was like, can we talk about the cancer? And he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's back. You have like a really small, it's like two centimeters or he was like, it's almost an inch. That's back. But when cancer comes back, I want you to know,

it's not because it's just growing back. It's just with the 28 pounds where there were some that was left over and it's just it's growing back. We're just going to have to monitor it now every six months. And if it continues to grow, we're going to have to go back in and take it back out. And the first time my first surgery, it back out. And the first time my first surgery, I lost a kidney, like, there was a lot involved, but this time, it wasn't that. It was just there's a small piece that has come back. So that was on Monday. And suddenly, my whole thought process on what I wanted to do next with my week immediately shifted. I said to everybody, I was like, yeah, I'm going to New York City. I called James Megan all of them.

I was like, yo, I'm coming to see all of your stuff. James is about to end doing Hamilton and Megan had some show at Fitzgerald R.B.L. I was like, I'm coming. And so, and Jennifer Nettles, who I'm a huge fan of, was doing waitress. I bought a ticket, jumped out of plane. And on my way there, I text my publicist and said,

hey, I know you're leaving New York, but I'm coming in and she said, Jen Hatmakers here. And I was like, cool, I really know Jen, but I'm there by myself if she wants to kick it while the night she's there. And I had my friend Sarah, who's on my team, basically give me like a quick update of all things Jen Hatmaker. And then we met at our little bar thing. And it was so platonic. So it was platonic in your intention when you went, but how that first night when you sat and talked for a little bit, did you feel the like sparky butterflies? What was your experience of Jen that night when you were sitting at a table?

So here's Jen's hot. And I didn't, I underestimated the hotness of Jen. That's a mistake you only make once. I underestimated the hotness of Jen. That's just a truth. That's a mistake you only make one. Yes. That's a mistake you make one time, right? And so I walk into this bar thing and she was there in all of her hotness.

And like I think you had her black other jacket or something. She was just dope. And so I went in from like, I'm trying to get to go see the show and to suddenly like, I put on like a little swag. I was like, oh, what up though? You know, like, what up, Jen Harmaker?

And granted, yo, real talk though, listen, listen. I'm a 45 year old bachelor. I wasn't even thinking anything about that. But this is what stood out, and this is the truth. When I sat down at the table, she already knew the server's name. And that was hugely important to me. Like, I went, whoa, she sees people. And to me, for as fine as Jen Hotmaker, is the most attractive part to me in that moment that I think attached to me was watching how she saw people.

And I was like, wait a minute, we see people the same way. And that I think was the first thing that shifted in me a little bit. And so was it romantic at the time. It was just like, okay, you see people. And then we went to waitress together. And her and I both, by the time the show was over, we had both made friends, because we were sitting in separate spots. So we weren't saying next to each other. But by the time we left, we had both made friends with all the people sitting around us.

So as we walked out of the theater, I had my new friend, she had her new friends, and we walked out and I'm going like, yo, you like, are we like the same person? Like what's happening right now? And so then we walk out of the theater and we walk to go and leave. And let's be very clear.

Oh, I did. It was not, John, Jen was not trying to have any Tyler and her life done on that day. I wasn't even trying to. I didn't, I wasn't expecting it. I wasn't ready. I wasn't, I wasn't ready. Right.

So, so this is what happened, y'all. I was there for three more days. I was gonna go see Hamilton and show she loves it. I wasn't aware of the time with loves. And I'm like, yo, I'm gonna go see Hamilton tomorrow, great seats. I'm gonna do all these things. I was like, look, if you don't have anything to do,

I'm by myself, stick around. And she was like, no. Oh. Oh, okay. Well, you had to go home probably because of all the videos. No, she didn't have, no, she didn't have nana thing to do. She's just how make, she does her own. She does her own.

I did have to go home and I've already been there for like three days. Okay. I told you, I have regrets around that. I wish I could go back and do that differently. I do. So we just, we had a little like, but what was yours? What was yours? Because his was that you saw the person

and you knew the waitress's name, which makes me want to just explode. It's seriously. And then you were going to see waitress. It's just all very perfect for another lifetime movie, perhaps, but. And the fact that Tyler noticed that, I know.

It's just, I know. What did you notice about him? Did you have the, well, I just went in really cold. I didn't know, I didn't know what to expect. I didn't know Tyler and I didn't know his work yet. And I, I didn't know really anything about him. And so I was not ready for him,

this guy to like walk in the door because he's just like, look just a really like powerful presence in every room and in every way, not just like the way he looks, which is how he looks. It's like, look at you. Everyone does. Like everyone does. And it's the way he is, like the way he is. And he's talking about me knowing our waiter, we hadn't been seated for two minutes. And a mom and a daughter come walking past us and he's like, whoa, you look good. Like this outfit, I like this outfit.

And I was like, that's sweet. Like, and it was just like a mom, like in her 50s. You know, like. Just like, I got about that. Yeah, he was like, this is working. I'm like, this is working. And so, you know, I, I, so he pointed out an outfit on a 50 year old woman and said, this is working.

And you thought he was not gay. He said, what happened? And she had a mic on some like red leather pants or something, right? It was no gay. What happened? When it happened, she had a mic on some like red leather pants or something. Right? It was no worthy. Yes. Yes. And you know, I dressed women for a while.

Right. And so she walked up and I was like, yo, those pants are fire. And then what you did, Jen, is you admit you didn't just sit back and go, well, let me just watch Tyler do this. You jumped into and we're like, those are amazing. What are you guys doing tonight? And that was again, I looked over to you like, are we seeing people together right now?

This is what we're doing. There was the piece after waitress where we left. We walked outside and I saw that she made all these friends and we both made friends. I was taking pictures for her and all this. And we walked away and we were about to leave. And I told her, I said, hey, I wanna be very clear. I don't mean this flirty.

I don't mean this like I'm trying to like get at you because I was not. Again, wasn't even a part of my thing. And I said, but I am so born away by how you see people and how you make people be seen and feel loved. And I don't know if we're ever going to hang out again or ever see each other again, but I want to just take a moment to let you know that I see that in you. And please don't ever stop doing that. And, and granted, of course, I didn't know Jen, so I didn't know that's just what she

does. And I remember thinking to myself, like, she's dope. She's just dope. And so that was the beginning. And what happened was we had each other's cell numbers, because, you know, how else are we're going to go have drinks, drinks before a show. And it just kind of started like a little... Testing. A little texting. We know how that goes, don't we?

No, we're following each other now on social media. And then it was like, And then it was like, how about a phone call? Like the olden days, right? Am I getting this wrong? No, you're right, but do you remember how the phone call happened? I don't know. Do you? Because if there was a definitive question

of who started what with who? Like who started what with who? I would probably say it was the phone call is what started the whole thing in the phone call was Jen's idea That makes sense this tracks So we had been texting and it was completely platonic. It was all good and she got to chapter seven in my book and I wanted some Intel on her About that chapter and I'm thinking she's a right-hershield text And she texts me and she goes, Hey, can you talk? Can you talk? And I and I text her back and I said on the phone.

It's kind of aggressive. Do you do that? I don't I only talked to my mom. No, completely. So I said to her, I was like, you want to talk like 1992? Yeah. And she said, yeah, so even to this day when we talk on the phone, we call it 1992. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then we did upgrade to FaceTime, which we call 2010. So anyway, that is true, but I'm just talking because I'm a human who talks to people. And how much can we text? I mean, I was getting like thumb fatigue and

So we started talking on the phone and then I'll tell you who really flexed. Okay, first of all let it be known Tyler sent me his book So I got that in the mail and read it cover to cover itated, you guys. It looks like that's my college textbook. I have highlighted the shit out of that thing. So that's kind of, it's that wrapped up the engine. And then Tyler in December, sins me. I've written something about buying my Christmas essentially.

Like we're doing a bougie Christmas. I'm doing bougie, I have somebody come in, they're gonna do my whole tree. I'm just not doing it this year, not this year. And so Tyler text me, he's like, I sent you something. It should be there like tomorrow or whatever. And I was out of town and I'm like, okay, I'll see it when I get back.

And I get back and he sent me this, the dude I know how to describe this. But it's like a big box of gold preserved roses. This is a thing I didn't know. And he's like, this is for your bougie Christmas, they're like gorgeous. They're over the top gorgeous. And so I'm like, these are so pretty.

Well, that night, my brother and my sister-in-law are over the house having dinner. And I'm like, look what Tyler sent me. Look at these beautiful flowers. And my sister, who's essentially a private investigator, she starts googling, because I'm like, I don't know what these are. And she's like, Jen, these roses are $500.

And I'm like, what? And then I kind of mentioned to Tyler, and he's like, I have only sent these roses to one other person ever. And it's not how the story is. It is exactly how much. It is precisely how it went. And he can try and put this was not a flex,

and it sure was. The gold covered roses, I can't wait to hear Tyler try to get around this one. Thank you. So, okay, okay. Okay. Okay. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class.

My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them.

She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm 45 single with no kids. What do you mean? This is what this means.

And I do pretty okay for myself. It's just me. I have no kid I don't have anything else except just stuff, okay? and so She boasts this thing and she has this tree that basically matches these flowers and I know because I said my mom Some I see this thing and I think to myself. Yo, I'm gonna send these over to Jen and so I sent them to her I was just like this post is cool and how fun is it gonna be for her to have this bougie Christmas that she wrote a whole thing about

and open up these roses and be like, I'm gonna put these over here. And I'll be honest with you, in my mind, I'm keeping, this is 100. In my mind, I'm thinking Jen has 12 dudes that like send her things. And people that send her things all the time. And like, I'm not at that period of time.

I was, I already had friends in my life then, who were being like, you talked about Gena La, are you guys something? And I said, nah, no, she's just my homie. She's cool as I was get out. But. Well, and to be fair to you, Tyler, gold and roses have historically always been platonic gifts.

That's right. I mean, really, we're trolling you. We don't even think about it. There's no, you know. We're trolling you. I feel attacked. Okay, so how have then? You're welcome, Jen.

Okay. So how then did the first move actually happen? Yeah. Because I will take ownership of that one. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so excited. Yeah. But here's the thing. Like, I don't know what you mean by move. Like making out. Well, the thing is, we sell for each other in a not normal way. Like, we sell for each other from two different states over 100 million hours of FaceTime. And so we weren't even together,

like we weren't together in the same city. And so we fell for each other in our hearts and minds. Like way before we even knew what our sexual chemistry was gonna be like, like we didn't know what we knew, but we were guessing at it. I knew, I knew, guessing it. I knew. I knew. I knew.

I knew. It wasn't that much of a mystery. All right. That's fair. But so by the time we finally got together in the same place, we were a hundred miles down the road. Yes. You know what I mean?

I wonder if we'll make out. Right. It was clear. It was happening. Yeah, it was happening. So, isn't that a weird experience? It's so different because we had the exact same thing. Yeah.

We fell in love hundreds of miles apart. Jen and I, we have two very different lifestyles. That's the whole other thing. Yes. Like, two very different things. We should get to that. She's right there. We had had a lot of communication.

And I slowly started to fall for Jen. And then she sped it up immediately. Yeah. Because I didn't even really know I was really fond for. I just knew we talked a lot. We were joking a lot. And what should have given me the clue is I don't text that much with anybody except people are like my immediate sort of like

But she here she is over in Texas and like we just got along so well, you know that it just seemed so natural And we started getting a little flirty, but even then it was like, you know, as a single dude, you know, you just, it's, flirty is not weird, right? And then one day she just like made shit real, but she did what she said. She did the thing that she doesn't know any dating rules at all. Like, no, she's near. How would I know anything? How? None. Not zero. Like, none, like, not at all.

And so one day just casually, casually, she drops the, so what is this? I don't know. DTR. DTR to find a relationship. Well, what is it? Am I a crazy person for wanting to know that? So like, he's 100% right. It was flirty and it was going somewhere

and we were texting each other. There is no way we were texting each other and calling each other like normal people. Like, no, we don't do that. That's not how we operate anymore in today's modern age. And so it was going somewhere. And we were like, Johnny in the spot when one of us sent the other one another text. And it was something was happening. And I thought it was happening in Tyler. Now I know he's a very exuberant person.

And so I was like, is he like this with everyone? Or is this just specific? Or is this just Tyler? Like maybe he just loves everyone. I'm not sure, but I don't wanna start barking up this tree if it's the wrong tree. Because I was feeling something for him. Something is happening in me. All those internal thoughts, she said to me,

like she put in the form of a text. She said, so what's going on? I want to be very clear. Do you talk to everybody like this? I need to go down a line and find this exact. Yes. I just clarity. Yes. I'm like, I like you. Do you like me? I can't tell, but I just the box. Me to know because I don't know what's happening, and I need this to have some some knowing about what is happening right now. We've always had clarity. some knowing about what is happening right now. We've always had clarity. Yeah. We've always had clarity.

She also told me too, she also, I don't know if you remember this, but you did say like, there's some other people in my life, so I'm just trying to figure out if I'm trying to holler at you or not. Well, I mean, sort of. I just went, who was I thinking about all the time? You, you, you, you, you. And so anyway, he was like, oh, damn. Like, I didn't even know.

I thought we were both in the same headspace. And I'm like, oh, okay, this is, I don't know what's happening now to this reaction. I'm a pervert. Yeah. But to your credits, Tyler, like you picked up the baton there What's it was give me some time I I for real y'all I was like

Can I have a minute fair good? How many to be tested got real like Immediately mm-hmm like like 20 minutes ago you were like how's your day? And now you're like can you define this please? And so I just don't I just didn't want anything that wasn't real. Like I'm too old for it. I've already done it. I've done it. I don't I'm not I'm not interested in casually dating eight men. That sounds like a fucking nightmare. Yes. And so I just didn't want it. And so if I was feeling one way and he wasn't, I needed to know because this is taking up a lot of time and energy. How long did the minute last?

Yeah, how long did you take? How much time did you need? Out of respect for Jen, it was only about 24 hours. Wow. And I never died. I came back to her and it got real technical. I know, I mean, it got real clinical. Like I came to her and I was like, okay,

I feel like I may have some feelings for you. Oh, my God. Here's a situation. My life is very complicated. I have been a bachelor for a very long time. So I need to figure out what it would even look like for me to be in a relationship with somebody. And if you have patience with me to see what that would look like for me to be in a relationship with somebody. And if you have patients with me to see what that would look like, then we can investigate. Like I was just like so transparent

with it. I like I was trying to like to have to be two whole people coming together. This is interesting. This is because you're just clinical, careful, intentional, clear truth. What? Is that what I want? These are things that two whole people say to each other as opposed to these younger relationships where you're just trying to be everything to each other and reflecting each other and not you or two. This is you were negotiating an adult relationship.

Yeah, 100%. 100% This is like a business meeting. Yeah, and it's true because the two of us each have a whole life. Yes. And it's lovely, both of our lives. It's full of people that we love and that love us.

We love our work. We have built our communities around us. And the thing about Tyler is, he's, and I've told him this, but he's just so secure and confident and that's new to me. That's the new personality for me to be in a relationship with, who isn't fragile and doesn't need me to like fill in gaps or spotlight, right, or those things that we were talking about in our other episode, not at all. And interestingly, I found out that I'm not that person either. I've got a

whole, this is why I'm like, what's going on here? Because I don't want to waste time. Yes. I don't want to like you if you don't like me. And then it was like with that sort of like rip-cord pulled, then I would say at that point, it was a fast forward button for the two of us. There was this other piece too that was very serious for me. I was very aware of who Jen was at this point. I understood where she was coming at, what relationship she'd come at her.

Yes. I was aware of her previous, for lack of a bit of work, is it okay to say hurt? Is it okay to say that? Yes, it's okay to say hurt, we say that. Hurt, I knew where she was coming from. Like, I was very clear on being like, I have a history of not trusting women, I have a history of not trusting women.

I have history of dogging people so that I could protect myself. I knew I was stepping into something with somebody who was whole and I needed her to know that she was safe. Oh. And that piece, that's where the negotiations began, right? Where I was like, all right. There's a couple things you're gonna understand my best friends a girl the person who I spend

98% of my time with is another single woman who is like my my rider die and so you just need to know this and coming into this That's not gonna change because that's my it's my best friend. I'm surrounded by a ton of women. There's a song of these current work called Take Me To Leave Me, where there's a character saying like, this is just who I am. Like, I'm gonna always have these people around me. Like, if you can roll with that, then we're gonna be okay,

but just you're just gonna have to know it. And so I came to Janet, and was like, yo, yo, I just gotta keep it 100 with you. Give me a little bit to get my situation straight. Let me talk to the people that are in my life. And if we're going to do it, let's do it. But before you step into this, I need you to know that this is a safe place. And then we started to walk from there. And it's been, it just, it's switched.

And she gave me time too, because we live two very different experiences dating. Like, we were living two different worlds. Here's something we don't talk about that often, and I really truly believe this. There is a single community, right? Like, people that have been single for a long time, we speak our own language, we have our own rhythms,

we go our own places, when somebody leaves the fold, it's kind of an event. It's a thing. Is it like in abandoning? Like you feel like you're abandoning the crew to... One hundred percent, one of my best friends, Mike Holzer, we were roommates for, Gerrit Two grown man were roommates for like,

most of my adult life. And he started dating someone and they got serious and got married. And the last year of our relationship was really difficult because I saw that he was leaving. He was getting married and going away And there was this internal hurt there like yeah Well, you're abandoning me. You're abandoning this thing that we just that we just do this unspoken world that exists of like

single individuals And it's something we don't talk about because I don't think it's something that we realize is so there But I know that there are single people listening this right right now that are going. I know that I know that community. I know those people. And it must be extra confusing. I mean, it's because our culture we value romantic love as the ultimate thing and friendship is just what we have extra to get us there. So when you have a group of people who you have said that's not our value. We actually believe in this as real love friendship. And then you say to them, oh, but actually I'm gonna go.

It probably feels like you're abandoning the value of the group. 100% glinting. And here's the other thing about that. We give women so much shit, single women, so much shit. Like if there's a single woman, we ask the question, so what's your dating life like? And when they reply and they go,

I don't have one, I'm cool, I'm a boss, and this is my shit. Like we wanna go, yes, yes, sister, do it. But really, you know, there's this other piece of going, but how do you do that? Like how do you really manage that single thing, you know? Or you must just not have found the right person yet or you must just not write. And we don't typically do that with men as much. I have some amazing female friends of my life who are single and they're okay being single. Sure.

How do you feel, Jen? Are you scared after getting going through so much pain, opening your heart again? Like, what is that like? And do you find yourself protecting or fighting the urge to shut it down before it hurts? It's interesting because, you know, Tyler and I have some pretty like marked differences, you know, black guy, white girl,

that the racial peace alone is a real deal. But for me, from my personal experience, the bigger distinction between us is this piece, which is I've been married since I was 19. And so I'd never spent an adult day where I wasn't married, except for the last year and a half. And Tyler's never spent an adult day married. And so we built our adult lives so differently. I was like building a family, and he was like building a life, right? I'm a parent. He's not a parent. These to me are the differences that rise up more acutely. And I think we've had exactly one wobble and it was around this because you guys know that I did just so much work in recovery. My own work, my heart, my soul, my mind, my processes, my patterns, my reactions, my responses, my worldview, everything. And I mean, I put my own DMV on stable ground. Yes, you did. And I recovered.

I was a, I was, I was a recovered person. And I was healthy. And I reclaimed myself. And I stepped into my own life. What I have just, what I've learned is that there's some residual effects of my specific brand of trauma that would just simply not present themselves until I was in a relationship with another person. That's right. I just wouldn't have the opportunity to experience it. Like it wouldn't come up, because it wouldn't happen.

That's right. And so this is the piece that I didn't even understand I had a fear trigger inside of me like I did because I've never had it before. I've always been stable and confident and secure in my relationship. Like to the bitter end, when I was still just like clawing my way forward, like just always felt confident in my body, I felt confident in just everything.

Like this is, I don't have to worry. This person is never, ever going to hurt me. This person will not walk out on me. This is a forever match. So that has broken something inside of me. Self-judged. All the way healed it called trust and safety. Yes.

And so trust and safety are my triggers. And so when Tyler is just living his normal life, which he explained to me, and I understand, and then a little something happens, and all of a sudden, I freak out. Like, I just freaked out. All of a sudden felt unsafe. I don't know if I'm going to be enough. I don't know if I'm going to be enough for you. Like in any sexually, or I just like had a complete sideways panic attack. This was just a couple weeks ago and he was like, what is happening right now? Because the punishment did not fit the crime. It did not fit the conversation. It did not fit the context. It was an over-response. And I was like, over-response. And I was like, fun fact, I actually don't also know

what is happening right now. Like, what is this? What is going on? And I was like, let me say this. I don't know if what is happening is actually kind of really well with down. I think what really went down was, Jan was like, I don't know what's

happening. This isn't how I usually am. You know, if you felt a certain way about yourself feeling the way that you were feeling. And I was over here and connect me, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was like, this checks out to me. Like this makes sense. I feel like someone who has the past trauma that you have. Yes. This you should not be walking around all the time like everything is good. You came out of a tricky situation out of a, and you, the last time you dated somebody was when you were 19. Right. Like not everything with you and I should be so easy. And for as much as I've tried to make you feel safe and secure, it is okay. And I told you this. I was like, it is okay for you to walk

through what you're walking through right now. You just need to know I'm not going. That's beautiful. If you understand and knowing I'm not going anywhere, then we will make it do this. It's so hard on yourself because this is, you know, this is the journey. I know, but that's what I do. I do that well. And so I called my counselor who I haven't seen in a few months because I felt like she and I had really gotten to the bottom of our lot of our staff and I was like, hello. I find I'm in need of your services. There's some new things. Surprise.

A new relationship brings up new things. I mean, did you guys experience this where you felt like you didn't even know what was wobbly inside of you until you got together? Just recently. I think just stopped. Yeah, I think one of the things early on because both of us left relationships

where there was betrayal. And so because we're smart people, we were like, so this is probably gonna show up in certain ways. And one of the things that I need is to be told over and over and over again that she's not gonna leave me. And I'm like, I'm so sorry that it's gonna probably make you feel sad. She said, yesterday. She said, you think that it's gonna make me feel sad to tell you that I'm not gonna leave you? And I thought,

oh, that's that's kind of interesting that I would feel that way. I had a dream that she was leaving me the other night. And I woke up and I was kind of piss at her, like we all are after those dreams. I told her about it and she texted me the sweetest thing yesterday. She said, I just want you to know that I'm so sorry that that dream happened and that I'm never going to leave you. And I'm never going to cheat on you. I'm never going to leave you. But I'm going to tell you that it was worse than that. I wasn't sweet like that in the beginning. Like the first year, I would lose my mind. Like I would, she found me going through her phone once or wait, I just told my kid that I went through her phone.

Yeah. I was like so humiliated because what kind of 45 year old woman is like going through her partner's phone. Yeah. And she said, she took a deep breath and then she said, what else do you need? Do you need my email passwords? Do you need like what?

It was just like the she was doing what you were doing, which was just like making room for trauma and not making it personal. It's not a character defect. It makes sense from what you went through. So Jen, it's just trauma makes you it is a very difficult thing. That no one talks about to truly trust yourself and then find out that trusting yourself was the wrong move before. Yeah. Exactly. And then trying to trust yourself again. It's a cluster. That's what my accounts were working on right now, that trusting yourself, Pete, because I'm like, oh, that gear was broken, apparently. And so if I could be wrong, that wrong about a marriage, which, I mean, that person had

no reason to leave. We had a whole empire like I guess anybody can leave, you know? And so, and that's not fair to Tyler. And, and because he's only, and I told him this after that, it was like a two-day slide. And I was like, I'm sorry that you have fallen in love with a person who has trauma. I don't love this for you. And I don't love it for me, but here we are. And all he has ever done in response to me ever is add safety and security constant. I mean, it's literally constant.

And so it's nothing that Tyler is doing or not doing. It's just, this is mine to work out. And I'm even, I may have teeny little bit grateful for it because it's just shown me a new place that needs my attention. And I'll be better for it on the other side. Like I'll be stronger for having experienced this and then. Like I'll be, I will be stronger for having experiences and then faced it, which I know how to do now.

I have muscle memory for this. And in the meantime, I mean, while I have been, as he said, like maybe patient with him in terms of his sort of single life and putting up new pillars in his life that weren't there before. He's patient with me too. And understanding where we come from. And you please remember because this helped me, is that I used to tell myself, well, I trusted myself before and it didn't work. So now, but the fact is that I just wasn't trusting myself before in the first marriage.

Like I actually knew. I knew. I didn't know exactly what. But who cares about the what? I knew what was happening inside me. I knew something was wrong. I wasn't trusting myself enough. So it's not like I trusted myself before and I was wrong. It's like I didn't trust myself before. And now what we know is we feel real things. We're going to say the real things, which also you did. That is doing it. You felt something weird and you said it and you trusted Tyler to handle it. And he did. Yep. Yeah.

Abby, let me ask you this. After you wake up from your scary dreams and all that, which I think we all have. I think this is a little bit unrelated for your dream, but as I was listening to you talk, what is, and I'm sure there's a laundry list of things, but what would you say is like the sink, one of the singular, like top-notch things that you say that you absolutely love about Glenin? I just said it to her this morning. So Glenin has this unique way of tapping into a future world. So we kind of talk about it in the idea of God of bringing heaven to earth. And she has this beautiful way of when she gets into her creative space of seeing into a future that we don't live in yet. And then trying to find ways to breathe actual reality in life into that

future. And I think that being around somebody who lives like that is one of the things that I admire. And also she loves all of her people so relentlessly. It's just unbelievable. But I think that it was just one of those things that I said to her this morning, I just like, you have this beautiful relationship with God and how your relationship, I mean, it really has transformed my relationship. I came into this marriage as an atheist

and now I see and define God very differently. So this is all to say is I see the God and Glennon. And I also see the heaven on earth that she is so trying to create in some way shape or form. Yo, that is dope. Glennon, what about you with Abby? about you with Abby? I don't think that there is any moment, any moment since I have known Abby that Abby has not made. It's like if every moment or every dinner or every conversation is like, it's like 70%, everything's 70%. And my whole life, I've been like this, Tyler. Like, I've really just always been like, is this it?

Like, this is it. And then, Abby came and every moment, every dinner, every conversation, everything is just like 100% now. It's like that, that that was a revised thing where it was all black and white and then, and everything is in color forever. Like everything is in color forever with Abby. And it's not, I'm like, just spiritual. It's like she leaves the house to go away for two days. And the kids and dogs look at me like, what the hell, like you, like, and I can't do it.

Like no matter, no matter of dancing or like turning on the music, or like I can't chase it. Like no matter, no matter of dancing or like turning on the music, or like I can't chase wrote in our little, we had this little silly wedding book where people could like write something and no one really wrote in it. But when we were flipping through it once, there was this page where Chase had written.

He was like 14 or something at the time. And he had written one little sentence and it said, Abby, before you came, mom never turned the volume up past 11. And it was literal, but also just that's our life. Like she came and turned the music on. And we went from just like surviving to like living. I have to ask you guys, Tyler.

I love those answers. What would you say about Jen that you love the most? Okay. So it's an interesting thing when you have somebody who is in a public forum, right? Where people see that person, they follow what they do, watching the thousands of people that are absolutely in love with my girlfriend for gazillion reasons. I watch that and I think to myself you don't even know the best of her. You don't even know like that. Yo, I know Jen is funny, but she's witty and funny in a way that we will talk. You go back and forth laughing about stuff. And I'll think to myself, like, you can hang, I'm a comedian, like you can hang with me.

Oh, yeah. She's as funny as they get. And so you have that humorous piece, but in the same moment, she can flip over and go, okay, so let's talk about what's happening in your heart right now. I feel like people can't understand the greatness of who she is. And I get to see that shit like every text message, every face time. And I'm gonna say this man, and I probably shouldn't say it's a public forum. I don't understand

how anyone could leave Jen in the way that Jen has been left before. Listen, I'm a grown-ass man, so I know relationships don't work out. Things change, except other, but I can't imagine spending 20 plus years with Jennifer Lynn King. And then be okay, not still having her around. Cause you're that damn good, Jennifer. And I kind of feel bad that the whole world's never really gonna know how good you are. They get pieces.

They don't get the 130 in the morning, FaceTime calls. But she's a shit, Abby. And it's hard to put in words, man. I know I'm gonna listen back to that and be like, I'll put all over that, but I don't know how to say it. And people will probably never get to really experience how great she really is.

Perfect. Jen, your turn. God. I just have never, ever, ever, ever known anybody like Tyler, never. I don't even have a, I don't have a comparison. I don't have somebody I can hold up and be like, he's kind of like this or he's kind of like that. Just everything about him is so new to me and so astonishing and so shocking. And it's like I'm in a completely new zip code that I didn't even know ever was. And Tyler, it's not just that he's neutral with me, like he just holds room for me or whatever. It's that he like,

there's no, I cannot give you enough examples. There's so a million examples of him not just seeing me but like absolutely like celebrating who I'm in with, he would know sooner, ask me to shrink by one millimeter in the forever. That would be so absurd to him. Yesterday, I was on a TV show, a talk show, and I get this long text from him after he watches the whole thing. He watched the whole thing, and he sends me this long text yesterday telling me how much, he saw me, what he saw in my

poise and my confidence, how I was made for this. I just went on and on and on. And he's like, this is this I'm drawn to you. You're such a discerning leader. Just you have to say that. He could have said nice job. Yes. You know, you looked pretty. And instead you did look pretty., thanks. Instead, it's this like laser precision. I'm going to tell you what I see in you. And it's all the bigness of me. You know what I mean? It's the big parts of me. It's the shiny parts. And those were the parts that just didn't get to live free and clear. And it's just like a miracle every day to me, the way that Tyler sees me and loves me like that. Like doesn't just like, oh, she's a lot,

but like loves me like that. And once me to be like that, I've now felt for one second that I have to be anything other than exlutally exactly who I am. And he is, that's my best self for him. And even under that, like, you guys are understanding this as you kind of get to know him, but like he's just good. Do you know what I mean?

He's just good. Like he's good. He's good in the world. He's good-hearted. He's generous. He is like loving. And he cares about all the right things and that matters to me. Like, that's a big deal and there's just that whole bit of him is important to me, that

I am with somebody who is, like good at his core, which again, for me, create safety and trust. Those are my wobbles. And so all these ways that Tyler, not just acts toward me, but just is, like as a person, it is just constantly scaffolding for me, Safety and trust. Yeah. Beautiful. So Tyler. I mean, he's a hot guy. And that brings us full circle.

Yeah. That brings us full circle. See, we start with Jen's hotness. We end with Tyler's hotness. Yeah. I mean, let's bookend it, you know. You have always been such a beautiful story in the world, Jen. I mean, you just, as for this house, we love a Sim Jen hat maker, and we are so freaking grateful to now, no Tyler. And it's just, when I'm talking to you guys, I'm thinking about this episode we did a long time ago about stress in our lives and how what helps us the most is a hug from a person for 20 seconds. But what we learned about is that the only way

that the hug works to lower all of our trauma. Bring the oxygen in there. And to bring us comfort and peace is when the two people in the hug are both on equal footing. Because if one is leaning too much on the other, it's scientifically doesn't lower the adrenaline and cortisol as much as when both have a center of gravity that is completely on its own. So if they separated, they would both stand alone. But together, the choice of the togetherness,

instead of the desperation and need for the togetherness, is what actually creates true love, which is out of want and desire, not just need. That's dope. You are amazing. We love you so much. We can't wait to get to know you, IRL. Same. And just thanks for being here. And for the rest of you, we love you so much, we can't wait to get to know you IRL.

Same. And just thanks for being here and for the rest of you. We will catch you next time on We Can Do Hard Things. We Can Do Hard Things is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it.

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