We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Jenny Lawson is Broken (in the Best Possible Way) (Best Of)

Episode Date: May 10, 2025

1. Content warning: Discussion of suicide. 2. Jenny puts words to her experience of ADD – "being a kitten on cocaine" – and her anxiety – seeing "rainbow fire.”  3. How Jenny felt guilty for years about a way her mental illness impacted her mothering – only to later learn it was her child’s favorite memory. 4. The moment she decided to be honest about her struggles – and how sharing our awkwardness can save the world and cure our loneliness. National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 800-273-8255 About Jenny: Jenny Lawson is an award-winning humorist known for her great candor in sharing her struggle with mental illness. She's written four NYT bestsellers, including Let's Pretend This Never Happened (a mostly true memoir), Furiously Happy (A funny book about terrible things), You Are Here (An owner's manual for dangerous minds) and Broken (in the best possible way), which recently won the Goodreads Choice award for Best Humor of 2021. One of those books is a coloring book but she insists it still counts. She lives in Texas with her husband and child and would like to be your friend unless you're a real asshole. TW: ⁠@TheBloggess⁠ IG: ⁠@thebloggess To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Hi everybody. Hi. How you doing babe? I'm very excited. And how are you sis? I'm very excited. Oh good to talk to our guest today. Me too. As you might know, it's Mental Health Awareness Month. Otherwise known as all year in our world. How funny is it that we would, we're going to take one month to talk about our, our, our mental health. Like it's so fascinating. I think it shows how we haven't yet figured out that mental health is for everyone with a mental. Right? With a mind.

Yes, I know. You know, it's a mind. But there are some people whose minds are so special and so different that they can serve as guides for all who have mentals. And our guest today is one of those guides. And she has been a guide for me forever. I have been reading Jenny Lawson's, well, first on her blog, like decades ago, the blog S is how I found her. I think her tagline on her website is like mother Teresa, but better. That's how I first fell in love with her with just that line. I've always loved Jenny as she's a hero of a lot of folks.

And it's for many reasons, one, because she's unbelievably hilarious and honest, but also because there's so many people who talk about mental health in like our cultural way of talking about it, which is like just from an expert view or from like a before and after story, like mental health, extreme home makeover. Like they used to be a mess and now they're better. Before and after. Exactly. And it never feels true to me because that's never been true for me. Ever. So I don't understand how that, I always feel like people are lying when they're

done with mental illness or something. Like that's not the way it works. At least it's just not the way it works for you and Jenny. Okay. I feel like for anyone, but I'm sure there's some people who have fixed their mental. I'm just trying to say that there might be different people out there also. Yes, but great for them. Happy for them. And it also speaks to like, maybe that is true of those people's experiences, but it's not

socially acceptable to talk about it from the thick. That's right. It's only like, oh, I too used to be an alcoholic. I too used to whatever. But when you say like currently now, right this moment live, broadcasting live to you is a very different beast. It's revolutionary. Yes. In a world that just celebrates victory stories. And it's true in a way that makes people like me and millions of people feel really seen and okay and belonging. So she talks about mental illness from it, not just about it. She just is shows up in the middle and is one of us. Let's just get her here. Can you just...

We're obviously, our guest is Jenny Lawson. Yeah. It'd be funny if it wasn't. Well, after that intro, we couldn't get Jenny. She's high demand, but we have this other girl who used to know Jenny. Who's better now? Hi Jenny. Who's better now? Hello. Oh my gosh. I'm so glad to be here. And also very nervous. I normally can't say that when I'm doing podcasts, because I'm like, I'm going to be very professional, but this feels like a very safe place and that I can just be honest about it.

And so, so I'm both very excited and also slightly terrified that I am going to disappoint and dealing with a lot of imposter syndrome and fighting that off. Same, Jenny. Right? Same to all of it. Yes. Welcome.

We welcome you with open arms. And also, I just want to say there's no possible way you could ever disappoint. We have this hour together and I'm so thrilled to have this hour together. And if we just stood here and stared at each other, I would be so happy. I'm just grateful to finally get to see you and your face in real life. Can you read Jenny's bio? Jenny Lawson is an award-winning writer and humorist known for her piercing candor in sharing her struggle with mental illness. She's written four, count that folks, four New York Times bestsellers, including Let's Pretend This Never Happened,

a mostly true memoir, Furiously Happy, a funny book about terrible things, and Broken, In the Best Possible Way, which recently won the Goodreads Choice Award for the best humor of 2021. She's the owner of Nowhere Bookshop, an indie bookstore in San Antonio. Jenny lives in Texas with her husband and child

and would like to be your friend unless you're a real asshole. Nobody be an asshole, sister Abby. I'm trying to be Jenny's friend. See how she led with me, Jenny? She added Abby to be sweet, but mostly it was for me. Well, I mean, I don't think that I, of any of the three of us, have assholery.

You're the least asshole. That's right. On the pie chart, you're a sliver. Need to talk to myself. That's exactly what I was trying to get at. I think it depends on what you're using your assholery for, because it can be a fantastic tool for the right thing. Jenny, talk to us about, first of all, it's mental health awareness month and then next month is pride month. So this is like really

my time to shine, Jenny. I'm just really, this is like game month for us. Can you tell us in broken, which I freak, I love all of your books so much. Broken is just the most recent one I've read and I've read it twice and I read it once for my own little heart and mental. And then for again, for the interview, talk to us about your first panic attack that you remember when you were little.

Oh, goodness. Anxiety has always been my constant companion. So I'm not sure if I could even break it down to the first. It's really more that there's a lot of stuff that in retrospect, as I got older, I looked at and said, you know what, the average kid does not take out all of their toys out of the toy box and shut themselves in like it's a tiny coffin or a sensory deprivation chamber. The average kid doesn't throw up every day because they're going to have to go to school. The average kid doesn't have problems communicating with people. And so for me, it was always just my constant. I was just weird. I think now it's easier to be weird. But this was, you know, back in the 70s 80s, when you couldn't find your other weirdos. And, you know, I'm living out in rural Texas. And it, yeah, it was rough.

It took a long time before I saw, that's really kind of how I discovered writing was because I couldn't communicate in any other way. And so not only because I was so afraid of talking, but also when I would talk, I would get really panicky. So I would either not talk at all. And I was just the very quiet person sitting in the corner. Or as soon as I started to talk, I could not stop and I would ramble and I would go off on these ridiculous, you know, tangents. And, um, and now I embrace it.

Now I'm like, I'm okay with the ridiculous tangents. But at the time, it was a different era, you know, and people were like, oh, there's something real wrong with her. But finding writing gave me the ability to slow down time and sort of reprocess it and say, okay, here's what I want you to know. And here's who I am. And it was through that that I was able to communicate.

That tracks. So your book is called Broken, the most recent one. And it's so interesting because I always had a complicated relationship with that word. My friend Brandy Carlisle named her book Broken Horseses and I was like, no, you cannot name it Broken Horses. Like you're not broken. We had a whole thing. I was like, if you name it Broken Horses, no one will read it. And then she did. And then it became this huge New York Times bestseller. So that was fine. As did Jenny's. Yeah. Yeah. As did Jenny's. So I'm not getting asked for advice about titles anymore, but can you Yeah, not getting asked for advice about titles anymore. But can you tell me your relationship to the word broken and your embracing of that word? So for me, I've always felt a little bit just not right.

I have clinical depression that's treatment resistant, and I have anxiety disorder, and I have avoidant personality disorder, which just makes me kind of think that everybody hates me all the time. And I have impulse control disorder, and I have chikatelemania. I collect disorders like other people collect, Holly Hobby. And I just was like, there's something really wrong with me because I don't know anybody else like this. The more that I explored it,

the more that I realized that the way in which I was broken, and I use that word in a way like of sort of reclaiming it, of broken as in shattered in a slightly different way, but in a slightly different way But in a way that lets the light in And and it it creates this ability to see things from a different perspective I think that I mean it is a horrible struggle to deal with mental illness But I think that for a lot of people

It creates a very deep well of compassion because you know how hard it is. And also because everybody's depression presents in a different way, which was something that, for me, I always have to continue to remind myself. Because some people will be like, oh, I'm really depressed. And so I was crying all day. And I'm like, oh, I'm really depressed and so I was crying all day and I'm like my depression presents as

an extremely uncomfortable numbness My face feels like it doesn't connect to me have absolutely no energy I just basically have to Cling to the couch and be like keep breathing Your depression is lying to you. Your depression is telling you some terrible things right now. And none of them are true. Um, and that is awful and terrible, but it also makes me who I am. And that's not to say that if somebody said like, here, take this pill, you can get fixed forever. I wouldn't be like, yes, please let me have it. I'm not like, oh yes, I love to suffer. It's great.

But one of my doctors said, and it was one of the nicest things that anyone has ever said to me, it's always stuck with me. He was like, you don't let your pain go to waste. I think that's every single time when I'm struggling and everybody has their own struggle, you know, with whatever it is. I just think. If we all could just learn from that, because it's so easy to turn brittle or angry, but to, to turn it and make it into, you know, positive forward motion of. How could you help others? How could you have compassion for others? How could you have compassion for yourself?

Because I mean, honestly, I'm really good at forgiving people for the things that they do to me. It is almost impossible for me to forgive myself or, you know, and I'm like, okay, well, I don't go to the PTA meetings because I can't handle it. And I don't go to, you know, so many of my kids, things that I really want to be a part of. And I'm like, I just, I get basically. Cannot make myself do it. I have to sort of pick and choose.

And it's, it was really hard for a long time to, um, to deal with the fact of the, the disappointment that I felt in myself as a mom, especially when Haley was really young, because when they were young, I didn't have any ability to sort of tell them that there was something wrong, except I would just be like, I just don't, I didn't have any ability to sort of tell them that there was something wrong, except I would just be like, I just don't feel very good. And so whenever things would get really bad, our thing was we would watch Doctor Who. And because I was like, I can just sit on the couch. And it's one of the TV shows that doesn't like jar me for some reason. And so we would spend

all this time and I would be thinking, all of these other mothers are out there, they're cooking dinner for their kids. I'm not, they're washing their clothes, they're doing all this stuff. I'm just laying here. I'm literally doing nothing, just trying to breathe to get through this week. And when Hailey was older, I was able to explain it to them and apologize. And they were like, first of all, I didn't really realize that that was what you were going through. And I'm so sorry. But also, those were the best memories for me. Do you not understand? You sat with me on the couch. Everybody else's mom was like,

I don't have time for you. I gotta go do that. I gotta, but you were like, oh no, this is just me and you time. We're gonna spend four hours just sitting here snuggling and watching Doctor Who. Okay. So beautiful. God, the things we think are,

we should feel guilty about are the moments our kids are like, there she is. She's with us. She's letting me watch four hours of TV. Love my mama. The new BMO VI Porter MasterCard is your ticket to more. More perks. More points. More flights. More of all the things you want in a travel rewards card. And then some.

Get your ticket to more with the new BMO VI Porter MasterCard and get up to $2,400 in value in your first 13 months. Terms and conditions apply. Visit bemo.com slash the iPorter to learn more. One of the things that's so important to me is it's not just, oh, we're broken, busted up. So there are these silver linings. It's like, there's this chapter in your book called Rainbow Fire about the actual gifts of these ways of being. Not just the sour grapes, not just silver linings, but there's this moment where you're on tour for the book. And so Jenny

writes these books. She writes them, I think, from much of her writing comes, she makes sure she's in the place. She's in the depression. She's in the anxiety. That's why we can feel it's so real and so connected. Then she has to go on tour. Yeah. I mean, what you do- It's a sick joke. It's like- Sick joke. Yeah.

Okay. So, you have this one moment where you're on tour, you're in a hotel room, you're supposed to go out and speak to all of these people about your book and you get extremely anxious and you can't go out and you can't go out into the world and you are stuck in this hotel room and you're too anxious to go explore, which for me is such a metaphor of anxiety. It's like what always literally happens. And then you're like, Oh, I'm missing my life. And all of those people are out there out the window doing the things humans are supposed to do. But I can't experience life because of this anxiety. And I'm wasting my

life. And then can you tell everybody what happens next when you're looking out the window? Yeah, I'm looking out the window. And you can see like Times Square up here. And you can see like Times Square up here and you can see like just all of these things that I'd always heard about on, like you know, you read about them and you hear about them and then you actually see them in real life and you're like, oh my god, that's a real place and it really exists. It's not just like a fairy tale kind of thing. I kept going back and forth from my window to my door and every time I would get stuck and I would be like, I cannot do it. I cannot

leave this hotel room. I cannot make myself leave here. My anxiety is too strong. And I just felt like such a failure. And I sat down next to the window and just opened it up. And I was like, at least I can feel like I'm kind of in New York. I can hear the noise. And I looked down and there's this big fountain and it's, I don't know what it's called, but it looks like a whole bunch of dandelions and it's like fountains on fountains and it's so pretty. And I look down and I noticed that there is this rainbow fire coming up off of this fountain. And I am trying to figure out what it is. And I realized that it's a prism effect. And I'm looking at it and I am trying to figure out what it is. And I realized that it's, um, you know, a prism effect and I'm looking at it and like,

this is, I've never seen anything so beautiful and everybody is walking past it as if they couldn't care at all. And I just thought, I get, maybe they're just so used to it. You know, you get used to beauty, you don't see it anymore. And then I realized that that wasn't what it was at all. It was because I was so high up in my building that I was the only one that could see the light hit it in that certain way. And that no one else was seeing this amazing, fantastic thing that was greater than anything that I would have seen out there. And that sometimes life creates

a path for you and it ends up that it's the right path. And I just, I was so grateful that I was there in that moment. You said, I was reminded that there are amazing things I would never see with normal eyes and other paths. I cried again, but this time out of a small thankfulness that my brokenness set me in the place where I am. Beautiful, terrible, unseen by most. Mm. Mm. You have so many of these so-called brokennesses

and you just mentioned a few of them. You also have ADD and severe autoimmune diseases. One of the reasons so many people hold to your words like a lifeline is that you're able to put words to experiences that so many have, but are lonely and severely isolated inside of, because they don't have a bridge of words to be seen and understood by other people. And you put words to these internal realities that are so absurdly accurate and honest and brilliant and often hilarious that you are bringing light to the experience that so many have. And I believe it's saving lives that you are giving people a bridge to walk over with your words. You describe your ADD self as a kitten on cocaine.

Yeah. Please say more. Yeah. What does it like to live with ADD? It is utterly exhausting. It's very much like working on LSD where you just, you think like, oh, I think I'm utterly exhausting. It's very much like working on LSD where you just you think like, oh, I think I'm doing this and then later you look and you're like, well, I was not doing that at all. Regular basis like I would say like on a typical day like today and this has happened.

I can't even count how many times this has happened. Today I have this hyper fixation on I tend to eat the same thing over and over again. So my hyper fixation lunch, which I've had pretty much every day for maybe three years is a pimento cheese sandwich on toasted bread. And like I'm keeping pimento, big pimento cheese is in business just because of me. And so I went to put toast in the toaster and there was already toast in the toaster. And I was like, did I, I must've done this already. And, and, but then I looked at it and I was like, wow, it's really cold. And I'm like, oh, it's stale.

And I'm like, oh, I did this yesterday. I did it yesterday and forgot to eat it. Just, just literally was like, yeah, I guess I must've eaten. My biggest problem is that I have a lot of problems remembering to get my medication filled because I have ADD, which is impossible. And then I'll because I have ADD and I'm just, just kind of, I get things kind of confused. I'm like, did I take, did I take the pill? Did I not take the pill? And then I'll be like, wait, did I take my vitamin pill? Oh, am I ODing on vitamins?

I have no idea. I need to find a better. I need one of those like, I think there's some sort of machine that says like, not you. You had too many. And so instead I ended up not taking enough because I'm like, I don't know, maybe I already had one. I'm not going to chance it. Yeah, it's really hard. I've had to find a

whole lot of tools. And the really great thing about with mental illness, with depression, with anxiety, with is that there are so many people now who are willing to talk about it. They're willing to say like, this is where it works for me. This is what works for me. And you can kind of pick and choose. And I always think like I have my toolbox and I can be like, okay, this works for me. This thing that everybody was like, totally works. This thing does not work for me. And so when somebody's like, you should try yoga, like, fuck you. You're like, I agree, right? It works for everybody else, but no, I don't want to sweat and be uncomfortable. And I'm going to strain something.

And also, I'm going to fart so many times in public. Thank you. Right. You're like, that should be good for my anxiety. Thinking about farting in front of 30 people from the PTA the entire time. And you're in these positions and nobody else farts. I've been to three yoga classes, yoga classes. No one ever farts. And I'm just. And the whole time I'm like, how? There's nothing, nothing. Anyway, it's insane. But I have all these

tools. And so like for me, one that has been really helpful is pink noise, which is it's kind of like, you know, they have like different kinds of like gray noise and brown noise and what pink noise it sounds like kind of like the ocean. Um, but there's something about that particular tone that helps block out. So like when I have ADD, I hear, like I hear all the light bulbs in the house and I hear, I mean, everything is very loud all the time. So I can't concentrate on anything else. It's like if everything in your house turned up the volume to 90 and people are talking to you normally and you're going, do you not hear what's going on? We're in the middle of an earthquake. And they're like, no, it's really not. I'm like, do you hear the lights? And they're like, no. But

if you talk to people with ADD, most of them will say, oh yeah, oh my god, the lights in here are so loud, especially fluorescent lights, awful. But pink noise drowns it out. And the really helpful thing is when I'm writing, because I have a really hard time sitting down and getting things done, there's a YouTube compilation of just free whatever pink noise,

and I think it's like 20 minutes long. And so when I turn it on, I can write. And as soon as I start to get distracted, I know that it's turned off and I can go to, I can say to myself, I just worked for 20 minutes, even if I only got one sentence done, even if I'm going to delete it, it's still gives me a chance to say I completed 20 minutes. I think I can do another 20. Let's try it one more time.

Wow. That's awesome. As someone who deals with ADD, does it annoy you or not when people are like, I'm so ADD, like on all their memes and graphics cause they like forgot one thing. Is that an annoyance and a hurtful thing for you? I understand. I understand why it's hurtful for other people. For me, no, it doesn't.

For me, it feels like it feels kind of compassionate in some way because they're like, oh, this really sucks that I was forgetful or I was this, you know, like that. And it's not the same. And of course you shouldn't make fun of it and everything. But at the same time, I mean, I call myself crazy all the time. And there are some people who are like, you can't call yourself crazy. And I'm like, you know what? I get to take that word back. I'm like Justin Timberlake was sexy.

I'm taking crazy back. You know, like I embrace it and I'm and I'm OK with it. One of the really nice things that has come from writing about mental illness is the fact that, this is, I happen to have to tell the story backwards to get to the thing. When I first wrote about it, I was very afraid to talk about it,

but what I would do is I would write these funny posts and I would keep them so that when I was having a week when I couldn't do anything at all I could publish them then and I was like, oh this is good. This is covering and this is But what happened was in fact it made it so much more painful because of the cognitive dissonance of people going like you're so funny Oh my gosh, and instead I'm like, I cannot shower. I cannot stand up. Like I hate myself. And so I was like, I'm just gonna have to write about it. And when I did, my father, he just was like, this, I don't think this is a good idea. This could affect you. I just, and, but did anyway and what happened was instead of people running away

thousands of people said you need to I you know I also feel alone I also feel sometimes like the world would be better off without me. I also listen to those lies that depression tells and I have to remind myself that those are lies and that when I come out, I'll go, oh, that was not real. And so what happened was I got all of these responses from people later on who were actively in the process of planning their suicide and decided to not and to get help, not because of what I wrote, but because they saw thousands of what I wrote, but because they

saw thousands of anonymous strangers say, me too, me too. I also feel like this. And they thought, how could they possibly feel like the world would be better off without them? And then they thought, well, if it's, if I feel that for that stranger, maybe I could give myself that same benefit of the doubt. And what is so amazing is that now there are all of these people who reached out and they got help and they're still alive today and they're mothers and fathers and children and parents and they're and they were saved by anonymous strangers who have no idea that they saved lives. Like, you don't know the ripples that you put out there. And just in saying, I also feel like that, that they saved lives. And after that, my dad was like, I'm really proud of you. And I'm going to start talking about my mental

illness too. And, and, and before, you know, he, he really, I mean, to the point where like, when I first started to see a psychiatrist, when I was like, this is really bad. My mom just kind of sat me down and said, you know, this, this runs in your family. You know, that your, your dad has some really difficult issues and, you know, your aunts and your grandparents. And I was like, no, no one told me. And, but that's how, that's how it was. It was only recently that I found out that my, I think she was my great, great grandmother, my grandmother's grandmother. I was doing some genealogy stuff and I found that she died in the a mental institution in our town and I was like that's so strange because I

Would have thought that I would have heard something about that and my mom was like I didn't know anything about that And my grandmother was like I didn't know anything about that because it was hidden it was completely hidden and I you know found her death certificate and it was death of related to psychosis and I was like well psychosis doesn't kill you and so I did some research on that hospital and what they did at the time was insulin therapy where they put you into a diabetic coma and they did this um Thing where they put you in freezing cold water hydra therapy, they did just these these really

um barbaric treatments that a ton of people died from because they had heart attacks, uh, and that's what what happened with her and so Every time that I start to think it's hard to open up, it's hard to open yourself up and, and know that even though 99.9% of the people are going to say, Hey, I'm with you. Or someone I love also has depression or I don't get it, but at least you're funny about it. Or, you know, that there's still going to be that 0.1% who's like, oh, I knew you were crazy. They should take your kid away. They should, you know, lock you up. I just look at how far we've how far we've come and how easy it could be to fall

back. I mean, we can see that now with stuff that's going on the Supreme Court where I'm like, oh, this was a done deal. I didn't have to think about this for the rest of my life. And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, this is back. What? That's right. What do we mean by almost? You can't get a well-groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. Sunshine? No. Some wine? Yes. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now.

Alcohol in select markets. See the app for details. Jenny, I feel like it's important to talk about suicide and it's scary to talk about it because people are convinced that it's talking about it is contagious. That like, if you talk about it, that means other people will think of it or something. And maybe they wouldn't have thought of it before. And I think that comes from a good place too, right? Everybody's just trying to avoid it. But what has always been surprising to me, and I have no idea if this is just because

of my mental health issues, is that people seem so shocked. I can't even imagine is usually the refrain, right? Like I can't even imagine. And that is always very feels like othering to me because I'm always like, really? Like you can't, you can't, you've never thought about that. Like, so I don't even know exactly what I'm trying to say, but I think what I'm trying to say is I feel like talking about it, even admitting, yes, I too have had those feelings. I too have considered suicide. I have had beginning thoughts or middle thoughts.

I don't think that that propagates suicide. I think that what you just said is so important. Talking about it makes people think, oh, maybe I'm not alone in it. And that makes you less depressed, which makes you less likely to commit suicide, right? Yes. Yeah. I totally agree. There are some issues. So, for instance, I have suicidal ideation, which means that I think about suicide a lot, even though it's not necessarily something where I'm like, oh, let's do it. It's just an impulsive thought that I have. And for a long time, it really bothered me because I would think that and I would get

so upset about it. And then I would get upset about being upset and it would actually make it much worse. And instead, what I've learned is the best thing to do is just to like recognize that emotion and that thought and go like, okay, I see you. That's a little crazy. Put it in a bubble, push it off. And then if it comes back, you just continue to do that. The other thing is that for a lot of people, if you're in a dark place, or if you have suicidal ideation, one of the things that you have to learn and it's a really hard process, but you have to learn how to take care of yourself. And sometimes that does mean removing yourself from that sort of stuff. There are certain types of triggers.

There's like some movies and I'm like, oh, I want to see this movie so bad. And I'll do like a little search and it'll be like, oh, this type of this happens. And I'm like, oh, I can't, I can't because I know it'll make those thoughts and I don't want to have to deal with it. So it does kind of suck that you're kind of having to carry your brain around in a little bag and go like, I know you want to look at this thing. This really dark thing looks exciting to you because your brain's there. But you know, but but I absolutely think that talking about suicide is and the thoughts of it are so important because I think when it happens, it can be so terrifying

that you can automatically think, well, I guess that choice was maybe the right choice. Instead of having somebody say, oh, it's okay to have that thought. That thought doesn't mean that you're gonna act on it. It just means that you need to talk to somebody. You just need to make sure that you're safe. You need to talk to a therapist, talk to a friend.

I've called the crisis hotline so many times. And it's wonderful. It's so helpful. Even sometimes I'll get somebody and I'm like, nope, okay, I'll talk to you later. And then I'll call back and I'll be like, can I talk to somebody else? Because sometimes you get people who want to fix you. And I'm like, I don't really want somebody to fix. I just want somebody to say, that sucks. I'm

so sorry. You're doing really good. You're going to get through this. And, and that's what I continue to, to remind myself. But yeah, you know, you always see people who are like, I can't believe that, you know, this person had everything going for them. And when your brain is not working properly, it doesn't matter. I mean, it's yeah, we, and we don't do this to anything else. We don't, we don't go like, Oh, she lost her battle to cancer. She must be so weak, you know? And, and I think suicide is terrible and horrible. And if you were in any way thinking about it at all I can tell you You need to reach out you need to to get help because there are so many people who would miss you I mean you do not know the ripples that you would make

but I but I also will say for a lot of people who Have left us, I feel really badly that for so many of them, that's all people think about is their last moment. When I'm like, they had such an amazing, wonderful life and we should celebrate that. And I think that also can be really helpful for people who have suicidal ideation, because when somebody big dies by suicide, we all feel like, oh my God, I could be next. I could be next. And you feel like, oh, okay, well, they failed.

And if you can retrain your brain to be like, actually, they succeeded in saving their life over and over and over again. Like Robin Williams had this long and amazing life filled with comedy and humor and pathos and severe ups and downs and flu and he had such an amazing life. And I think it's really sad when people just go like, Oh, his life was a tragedy because it ended in this way. Because everybody's life is an amazing chance to excel to celebrate magic and appreciate it and feel it. And if you right now are feeling depressed and numb and feeling like you're

never going to feel that again, I mean, you just have to trust that you will come out. And every single time I'm in a depression, I just came out of one. And when I was in it, I had to go back and read my own stuff to be like, okay, the past Jenny said, I'll come out again. And past Jenny must know it doesn't feel like it. It doesn't feel like it's possible. And then it does. And you can breathe again. And light works again. And you can, you could just be a normal person, which is so fantastic. But also a little exhausting,

because you come out and you're two weeks behind on everything. And there's, there's always people who are like, well, it's cause you're lazy. You know, if you exercised more yoga people, exactly. If you prayed the right way, if you found the right God, if you, you know, there's always, yeah, it's pretty, it's probably your glucose. No, it's your gluten. You know what? It's just my brain. No, it's your gluten. No, it's your, I'm like, you know what? It's just my brain. It's generations of people.

We just have weird brains. Coming out of it is so interesting though. I saw something that made me feel so seen. I'm sure it was a meme because that's the way my brain works. But it said something like coming out of depression is when you do your worldwide apology tour. And I feel like that's it.

It's just like you you're in it. And then you spend the next month apologizing for every fricking thing you didn't do, didn't show up for, the things you said, the things you didn't say. It takes another month. Oh my God. That is absolutely 100%. And then you have this like doubt in yourself of, you know, I didn't do these things that the average normal person can do. I mean, it really is like waking up and you have the worst flu ever and you don't know how long it's going to last.

Yeah. And everybody's like, well, you can push through the flu. But then they have the flu and they're like, oh, I can't push through this. I literally can't get out of bed. It's like, that's what it is. Except it's the flu that's in your brain. But guess what? Your brain controls everything.

All my favorite stuff is in there. So like when it's broken, all of this is broken. Everything that's attached to this is broken. It's okay. That's right. Oh God. Oh, that's so good. That's so amazing.

All my favorite stuff's in there. I'm just gonna say real quick, for anyone who's experiencing that, who needs a place to reach out, Jenny mentioned the crisis hotline. It is 800-273-8255. Thank you, sister. 800-273-8255.

And if you're sitting here thinking, how is that brilliant, amazing woman possibly considering that the world might be better without her? That's crazy. No pun intended. That is also true for you. Yes. The person who is listening. Yes. And for someone who never has had any experience with suicide and doesn't understand what we're

talking about, one thing that you could do is just to make sure that whenever you're in a conversation about this or you hear about it, that you react with reverence and not judgment. This is something we can do. We can stop saying that suicide is selfish. We can stop doing, I always think about this poem that Warsan Shire wrote about refugee, her refugee experience. When I think about suicide, and she said, she has this one line that says, you must understand no one leaves their home unless the water is safer than the land. And that's how I really have that book right next to me. Really? Oh, my gosh. And that's what I want to say every time someone says, it's so selfish.

It's so whatever. I can't imagine. I want to say you have to understand no one leaves their home unless the water is safer than the land. So just be grateful you don't understand. Yes. I have a lot of people who will come to me and will say, I, I don't understand it. I don't understand depression. I don't understand anxiety. Um, but by, uh, you know,

my wife or my husband, they suffer from it. And so they gave me your book to try to understand and I have a better understanding, but like, what am I supposed to do to help them? And I think that's first of all, such an amazing, I love the fact that their first thought is not, oh, this is gonna be exhausting for me. It's how do I help them? And I always just say like, it's different for every single person,

and really the best thing that you can do is to just ask them, what is it that you need for me? One other thing that I would say that, so I don't talk about my child and their experience because they're 17. And I'm like, you know what, when you're 18, I mean, they talk about their own stuff. But I'm like, I'm not going to publicly talk

about any of their stuff until they're an adult and they're OK with it. And they can make that decision fully. But I will say for parents, especially if you have hereditary issues, one of the greatest things that you can do is to ask your kid how they are. And that sounds so dumb, like, you know, like, how are you? But like to really be like, but really, how are you on a scale from one to 10, zero being the worst, 10 being the best. And that's really helpful because sometimes

you'll have a kid and they'll be like, I'm a 10. And that's actually not great. Like that might be like, maybe there's some swings that are going on there. Maybe there's, and also the fact that they're able to like think about it that way and be like, where am I really? Cause you automatically wanna say fine.

You automatically wanna either please your parents or get away from your parents. Usually both if they're teenagers. And so that to me has been really helpful is that question of how are you really once a day, one to 10, where are you right now? And it's okay, I'm not going to judge you. Nothing bad's going to happen.

I'm on your side. There's all sorts of different options. It's something that I wish I had found earlier. So I always pass that on to parents. Yeah. Putting like a number on it. I think for me, especially with Glennon, who also suffers from depression and anxiety,

I have had to tune into some of her triggers, like become hyper aware of some of her triggers. Actually one of them happened last night. And the way I respond to knowing that something could be upsetting or could be creating an anxiety in her, the way in which I respond to knowing that something could be upsetting or could be creating an anxiety in her. The way in which I respond to that, the way in which I ask about that, almost is more important in some ways than me even asking.

I mean, I think the number, putting a number on it is like a brilliant way because it kind of cuts out any kind of judgment in it. Yes. And so that I think is gonna be- And words don't make any sense in there. That's gonna be like really helpful, I think for me and my marriage,

because I'll just say, how are you feeling? And she's like- I'm like, don't give me another job right now. She's doing like six calculations in her head, like A, why did you fucking ask me that? Why do I not look like I'm feeling okay? Exactly. How am I responding? So I think that that number, putting a number on it is really, really beautiful.

Plus fine can mean so many different things. Fine depends on your baseline. I mean, if you, fine can mean I'm getting through, I'm surviving, I'm going to show up tomorrow. But that's not necessarily fine. Like when I was reading your book, Jenny, it was one of the things that convinced me to get on anti-anxiety medicine because I read a part of your book that has always been my fine. That has always been, I just thought that's how life was. And I didn't understand there could be a way that could be different, that that might actually

be anxiety that is that experience that could potentially get better for me as opposed to I would have said I was fine because that's how I've always 100% been. I want to read this one part that I identified so much with because it, to the extent it helps anyone else. You were talking about anxiety and you said, sometimes my anxiety gets hard in ways that you might not expect. If you struggle with anxiety, you probably know this feeling, the paralysis. I get stuck and suddenly it's been days since I replied to people on the internet and the pressure gets worse and I panic that people I haven't responded to are mad at me. So I ignore their emails and I don't look at my DMS or my texts and I don't answer

my phone or listen to voicemails because if I just wait until my mind gets better, maybe I could deal with this then, but I don't because it doesn't. And instead I look at those unopened emails for my friends and family and colleagues until I have memorized the subject lines by heart. And I think about how strange it is that they probably think I'm ignoring them when in fact, I am utterly haunted by them. Yes! I always think, I'm sorry I didn't write you back, it's because I like you so much.

The idea that you would spend an hour thinking about the email that would take five minutes to write back and not understand why you're such a deeply fucked up person that you have now spent six hours thinking about someone who must only assume that you don't give a shit about them because why won't you text them back for the third time that they're like, just text me back and let me know you're okay. And you're like, and then you just shut down. Yeah. Yeah. Then it gets even worse. Yes. My husband always he'll walk in and he'll be like, touch it once. That's the rule. You open an email, you immediately respond to it. You close it, touch it once. Never. And I have hit, mark is unread. That is my like defaults. I look at an email and I'm like, nope, can't respond to that mark is I and

They're simple emails. They're sit there, but I'm just like, nope, I don't know. I don't know how words work and then I'll come out of it and all of a sudden it's like Like I'm a superhero. Yes, like like oh my God, is this how normal people are? I went, I went to CBS to pick up my medication and didn't have to lay down afterwards. Hero. Oh my God. It's, it's just, it's so insane. Oh, it's so good. Okay. So we are so close to out of time. So we want to end with this. First of all, very quickly, I need to tell you that the word STET, I wear around my neck. Yay! STET like the wind, motherfucker. Oh my God.

So what does STET mean? Okay. So STET, which Jenny has an entire chapter about in your book. Okay. So when you first start writing and you write a book and then your editor's like, you should change everything. And you're like, you're right. Just change everything. Just change it all. I suck at writing. And then when you get to a certain point where your editor asks you to change all these things and you can write this fancy word that is STET, S T E T. And what that means is, leave it as it stands. Leave it as I wrote it. Let it stand. Or as Jenny says, okay,

this is what Jenny says, STET is my favorite verb and it is the drier setting I live my life in. STET equals yes, it's fucked up, but I like it that way. So thank you for that. Exactly. It's so wonderful. I'm like, sometimes you just, you have to learn how to write and what all the rules are just so that you can break all the rules. Yes. And it's so freeing and fantastic. And there are so many things that I have given myself permission to in my life.

Like I don't own an ironing board or an iron because guess what, dryers exist. You know, it's a fit in the dryer, that 100% works. I don't always, you know, use a plate because if you eat over the sink, it's just a big problem. Oh my gosh. Or you can use your shirt. Oh my God, 100%, 100, oh my gosh, yes. Yes. Well, and see, I wear dresses because it's

like a picnic table that you're wearing all the time. It is the best. And people are always like, Oh, it must be so comfortable to wear a dress. I'm like, are you kidding me? I'm not wearing pants. Wouldn't you like to take your pants off right now? I don't understand why it and all my dresses have pockets. So I'm just like, no, that's it. That's it. This is the key to my life is dresses that are big enough that I can eat all my food on. They have to be like super washer friendly. None of them have to be iron. And they have to be made out of whatever fabric

that cat fur doesn't stick to. And that's, yeah. That's how I live. Every time I see a hand wash or dry clean only, I just think, well, I guess this is gonna be disposable. This is gonna be like, I wear it one time and then I throw it away. Because no one's doing that.

No one's doing that. Absolutely no one is doing that. It's kind of a pretentious charade. I'm like, oh, this shirt, t-shirt. It's like when I buy broccoli. It's like when I buy broccoli at the grocery store and I bring it home and Abby's like, should I just throw this directly in the trash or do you want to put it in the

refrigerator for two weeks and then throw it in the trash? Cause it's like a hopeful version of myself goes to the grocery store and then a different version of myself lives in my home. See, that's why I go straight to the frozen broccoli. That's good. And especially the one that you can like make in its own pack because then guess what? It's its own bowl. You just open it up and you put some, you put, you can like make in its own pack, because then guess what? It's its own bowl. You just open it up and you put some, you put,

you can either put butter in there or you know what you can put in there? Pimento cheese. You don't even have to be dressed then. No, there's no reason for you to have your dress on. So you could just have your frozen broccoli just naked with your Mr. Who. Wait, oh my God. So what we're saying is if you go to the grocery store and you find yourself in front of the fresh broccoli,

you look at the fresh broccoli and you say, step motherfucker. And then you go to the frozen section. And take off your dress. Take off your dress. Pull off the broccoli. Yes. And go home.

They're going to make you go in front. Everybody's going to be like, no, that's okay. You can go ahead of me. You can go ahead. Because you're the naked person holding frozen broccoli. Who's going to be like, no, that's okay. You can go ahead of me. You can go ahead because you're the naked person holding frozen broccoli. Who's going to mess with you? You win. You win life. That's right. So what the next right thing is going to be, Jenny, is one of the things

that we've been talking about incessantly about you is just what you've just done. It's like life is so ridiculous and being a human being is so ridiculously difficult. And there's just this one thing that helps, maybe two things. One is honesty and the other one is absurdity. The way that you embrace absurdity as it's like an injection of humanity and joy into life that just demands... It's like desire and absurdity are like the only things that can help us hold on to our humanity. So you have like entire chapters or months on social media that it's all I read for a month, where you were like talking about mortifying things that you do,

like when you're in the airport and the person says, have a great flight and you're like, you too. And then you're like, fuck, why again? It happens to me every time. And then everybody starts telling their mortifying stories and it's this common, what is it Jenny? It's like nothing bonds us, like are humiliating, even humiliating, it's like the word human.

Yes, yes. It is, there is something so incredibly honest about sharing the most mortifying thing that has ever happened to you. Not only because you are opening yourself up in such a vulnerable way, but because that thing that has been stuck in your head that you've been like, oh my God, that horrible thing that happened to me in seventh grade that I lay at night at two o'clock in the morning and just my stomach hurts when I think about it. Once you share it and people laugh and say, Oh my God, you thought that was bad. Let me tell you what happened to me. And then

all of a sudden you're making friends and you realize that those are the people that you want to be friends with. You don't want to be friends with the people where you're like, Oh, I have a car and they go, Oh, I have a nicer car. And you go, Oh, I can't wait to be friends with you. You know, I don't know. You're have whatever. Nobody's like, Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait. This person has like really great hair. And so I want to be best friends with them. No, you want to be friends with the people who make you laugh, who make you feel safe, who make you feel comfortable. And, you know, what was really great is not only that, I mean, they were so utterly fantastic,

every single one that was shared that I was like, I need to put this in the book because this really helped me. And I thought, I was like, I want to give credit to all of the people. And I thought, I bet a lot of them will be like, I do not want this in a book that people are going to read. And so I reached out to, I want to say maybe 100, 150. And every single person said, absolutely, yes, you can use it. And they were like, not only did that terrible thing turn into something that now is so funny, I have found friends out of this who I'm now friends with because they've reached

out online. And now this thing that before made my stomach hurt every time I thought about it. Now I'm like, Oh, that was part of a New York Times bestselling book. You were an acceptance and yeah, it's just, it's amazing. And that's what people, that's what people want. They want from each other. And that's what, what we want from ourselves is that authenticness of like, hi, I'm fucked up. Are you fucked up too? Can we be fucked up together? Can I lower my shield?

Okay, let's hide behind both of our shields. And then all of a sudden there's like this whole group of people and we're all together and we're like, this is... Oh God, it's so good. It's beautiful. Yes. Hell yes. Because of you, we started telling our most humiliating stories. Just the three of us. We're gonna do a whole episode on our Jenny Lawson inspired most humiliating stories.

My favorite one in the book was the woman at the hairdresser who, when they said, well, what do you want done today? And she said, I would like to have a wash, a cut and a blowjob. Yep. Or the lady who asked for a blunt cut, but she missed up where the end was supposed to go and asked for a blunt something else. A blunt cut? Cunt? Yeah. Cunt. Yeah.

Oh my God. She wanted a blunt cut and she asked for a blunt cunt. It's the hairdresser. And you know what? The hairdresser is a lot of them. And I think it's because the hairdryers are going in at times. So just real quick, I'll tell you that my hairdresser, who I love, her name is Ashley, and she's like this young, exciting whippersnapper. And she was doing my hair and she was telling me about some big plans she had for the next year. And she said, I'm Glennon, I'm going to become an escort.

And I was like, this is my moment where I might have some feelings because I'm like a 45 year old mom, but like this is a young woman who's sex positive and she's going to be an escort. And you Glennon Doyle are going to celebrate this in the escort. And you, Glenn and Doyle, are going to celebrate this in the moment. And so I said something like, oh, OK, where are you going to get your clients or something? And she said, well, I'm just going to keep the same ones. And I was like, holy shit.

What? That's a weird crossover. Right. I was like, OK. So I'm excited for you. Let me know how I can support you whatever so Later much later in the day We text back and forth and I realized what she said Jenny is I'm gonna be an s-corp an s-corp

Which is a business, which is a freaking business time She's get it going to be a different name for her business or something. And so it's like not an LLC. No, so of course she was going to have the same clients, but she wasn't going to have sex with them anyway. Maybe she was. Jenny, you are a revolution. You are a leader for all of us who just want to be close with each other in a real way. Like you want to be human together.

You have this part of your book where you're talking about this art called Kintsugi, and you say it's a Japanese art of fixing broken things with lacquer dusted with powdered gold to treat the repair as part of the history rather than disguising the breakage. The brokenness becomes part of the story in Beauty of the piece.

And Jenny, just that is you. You just, nothing is disguised. All of it is shown. All of it is golden. You are human Kintsugi, and we are so grateful for you. Thank you for helping us do hard things. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. And this was fantastic.

And this was a hard thing that was very worthwhile. So thank you for having me on. I cannot tell you how much I actually needed this today. So thank you. Same. And for the next right thing, I think everybody should just go out and share their most humiliating story. Yeah, do it!

In honor of Jenny's belief that we also believe that one of the things we can do to draw closer to each other is share our mortifying stories. Please call and share your embarrassing mortifying stories with us. We're just so excited to hear these messages. We'll probably get together and listen to them during a slumber party, but also we'll probably play some of them during our mortifying moments episode which is forthcoming. Or you can email. Yes. If you prefer that if you're not into the voice messaging. The email is

WCDHTPOD at gmail.com So it's the first letters of we can do hard things. Pod at gmail.com WCDHTPOD at gmail.com. So it's the first letters of we can do hard things. pod at gmail.com. W-C-D-H-T-P-O-D at gmail.com. Or the phone number is 747-200-5307. Once again, that is 747-200-5307. Tell us the story. Or email. Please tell us your stories. We cannot wait. And when life gets hard, don't forget, loves, you can do hard things.

Talk soon. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page

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we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleineriner and Bill Schultz.