We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Jon Batiste + Suleika Jaouad: WHAT IS ENOUGH?

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

How do we ever know what is enough – or feel like enough – in a world that pushes us to incessantly perform, perfect, collect, and earn?  The extraordinary duo Suleika Jaouad and Jon Batiste are here for one of the richest conversations we’ve had about art, love, ambition, spirituality, and what it takes to remain ourselves.  Together, we explore:  - The “beast” we all carry: fear, perfectionism, control, or ambition—and how facing it is the only way out;  - How we can all begin to alchemize our pain into creativity; and  - How to hold onto the integrity of art, beauty, and love in a world that’s always searching for “more.”  This conversation will help you take a deep breath and finally feel like it’s all enough – including you.  .  And check out our prior conversations we had with Suleika, the brilliant author of The Book of Alchemy: How to Stay Human; and How to Turn a Mistake into Magic.  About Jon Batiste:  Jon Batiste is a seven-time Grammy and Academy Award–winning artist whose music moves between jazz, soul, classical, and pop.  His ninth studio album, Big Money, was released on August 22nd, and is supported by a national headlining tour with more than 30 stops. Audiences also know Jon from his Oscar-winning score for his chart-topping album Beethoven Blues and the acclaimed documentary American Symphony, which celebrates his artistry, resilience, and love with his wife Suleika at the height of his creative powers.  About Suleika Jaouad: Suleika Jaouad is the author of the New York Times bestselling memoirs The Book of Alchemy and Between Two Kingdoms. She writes The Isolation Journals, the #1 Literature newsletter on Substack, and wrote the New York Times “Life, Interrupted” column. A three-time cancer survivor and visual artist, she appears with her husband Jon Batiste in the Oscar-nominated documentary American Symphony.

Okay, Pod Squad, if you are feeling today like you could use just a big, warm security blanket wrapped around you and just something that is going to make your heart feel full and your mind expand and make you just relax for a minute on this earth. Hands down, one of my favorite conversations we've ever had. I love these two so freaking much. Oh, my God, I can't. So one of the people today, Abby describes as her favorite people on the place. Janet. Last night at dinner, she said, I think he's just the best person, period. In the world.

And that's how I feel about the other one, Suleka. So the people we have today are Suleka Jawad and John Batiste. I will read their bios, even though everyone knows who they are. But what you need to know first about this conversation is that they are an incredibly grounded but creative and loving couple who talk about life in the world in a way that we just need to hear more of. And today they're talking to us about art and creativity and love and how to love each other better and how to love the world better. It's a must listen. Suleka Jouad is the author of the New York Times bestselling memoirs, the book of Alchemy and Between Two Kingdoms. She writes the isolation journals, the number one literature newsletter on Substack, and wrote the New York Times Life

Interrupted column. A three-time cancer survivor and visual artist, she appears with her husband, John Batiste in the Oscar-nominated documentary American Symphony. Yes, we got to go watch that. So, freaking good. John Batiste is a seven-time Grammy and an Academy Award-winning artist whose music moves between jazz, soul, classical, and pop. His ninth studio album, Big Money, is out now. Audiences also know John from his Oscar-winning score for his chart-topping album,

Beethoven Blues, and the acclaimed documentary American Symphony, which celebrates his artistry, resilience, and love with his wife, Sue Laca, at the height of his creative powers. Pod Squad. Buckle up. I'm so happy to give you the gift of Suleka and John. One of my favorite double dates ever. We did it. Hi, John.

I've never met you. Hello. Hi. How are you? We're so good. I'm Glennon. I'm Abby. We met.

briefly at an event but I'm sure you don't remember John remembers everyone that's one of his many many gifts yeah so so it's nice to be here in these boxes yes on the box within a box you see as God intended as God intended friendships to be human to human interaction that's right we're staying human John is what we're doing we locked in how is your morning you guys we're are you? What's going on? We're in Nashville, the sun shining. We're together. You know, I just came off of a tour bus about an hour ago, and we've been moving. We've been maybe five shows in a row in the last four or five days.

So now I'm here, and we're here together. I'm so excited. I get to see John perform at the Ryman tomorrow, which is going to be the grand old opera tomorrow. The Ryman was last time. No, no, no. It's the same thing. But, yeah. But, but, but, yeah, we're on the road now together. I love when we get to be on the road.

We did a tour. When was the tour we did together? It was like. In April. Something we never done before. Ever. The best experience ever. Why?

What was it like to be on tour together? I love it. I would, I'm ready to retire doing my thing and do our thing. It's so good. I feel like this. is a hack that the two of you have unlocked. It can be scary to work with your significant other, but if you really not only love each other, but like each other, merging work worlds means that you get to be together more often. You just get to be together and, you know, you get paid.

That is a nice hack. In theory, one gets paid. In theory, one gets paid, ideally. I'm seeing the vision. See, Glennon, every y'all got it hooked up, see, I see the vision. Come on. I understand. I mean, guys, we actually, it is wonderful, and we have found many wonderful things about it. But since we're talking about this, you should know that we are actually in a moment of trying to undo a lot of it. Because we just figured out maybe like a month or two ago that we have gotten ourselves to the point where most of our conversations our dynamic is about work and like then these weird dynamics come in that

I don't know it's like we're controlling each other more than loving each other or something um so yes awesome and also it's like everything else I can't figure out what the right combination is you're describing it like a third party it's something that's there that's not supposed to be there and is getting in the way of you being together. That's right. So yeah, that's a very, very wise thing to share. I felt like we were at that first stage of it where it's not we're doing something that allows for us to be together in a way that allows for us to also be creative to tell stories about how we met and all the different aspects of our life that align and help to inspire other people by doing that.

So it feels like we're touring, but it also feels like we're kind of hanging out on stage. But I could imagine if you did that for a longer period of time, it could become an idol of sorts. And it wasn't without its challenges. We're very similar and in certain very important ways, complete opposites. So like I am a planner.

I like to, you know, write out everything I'm going to say. I study it. I memorize it sometimes. And, you know, within that, I'll do a little improv. And John prepares in his own way, but what he loves more than anything is throwing out the script. So night two of tour, I think it was, in Chicago. We're supposed to be on stage in about 30 minutes. Salt shed.

I'm getting my hair and makeup done. And John's like, here's what didn't work last night. And let's change the whole structure of what we've spent weeks and months planning. And I start to get this like panicked, like wide-eyed, whale-eyed look. And I'm like, we can't do that. And John says, well, do you want to make it better or do you want to do what we prepared? And I completely broke down. I had a panic attack.

I started sobbing all my makeup. was dripping down my face and John was like, let's push the show by like 20 minutes. And I was like, we can't do that. I'm already a mess now. I'm worried that people are going to be mad at us because they've been waiting. And by the time I got on stage, I was such a frazzled mess that this very strange thing happened. And I was kind of mad at John too. Like I was mad at him for messing up our perfect plan, mad at him for, in my mind, inducing this panic. And I just kind of looked over at him. And in my mind, I was like, oh, you want to improvise? I'll show you improvisation. And I went completely off script. And I will say, you know, this is the kind

of difficult dance of collaboration within a romantic relationship. It was probably my favorite on-stage experience. And I couldn't have admitted it after the show because I was still just sort of thrown by the whole thing, but I was grateful to you for pushing me there. Yeah, well, I know you.

So people who work together that have the chemistry and the thing is kind of like a relationship. It's kind of like somebody who you know there's an ESP and you can play something or you can say something and then they'll finish the sentence or they'll finish the chord and the rhythm will come together and something will happen it's like boom so like sometimes that requires a push and I don't have um any any method about improvisation it's more about finding the connection that's the most real what's the realest

authentic, not any shred of fakeness, any shred of getting in the way of the signal, just get all of the noise out of the way of the signal. So whatever we have to do to get there, I know it's going to, everybody's going to be happy in the end. So, and also, I got some push from this one too. It's a two-way street. You've got to have both. You've got to have the love and the honesty to know that you can carry the weight of the push. and you can sustain the push because that's the power there there's power in that kind of honesty

because people don't see that very often so when you show people that that's what's really inspiring not the notes and stuff that that's nice but the real thing is the inspiration oh there's something about if you could stay in that place it might be all right it's like there's something about the structure

and sticking to the structure and me saying but we're supposed to do it this way and hers. That's the problem is the not problem is what you just described. But I think a lot of this has to do with the origin of our specific arts. John, I'm a little bit more like you and you're a little bit more like Seleka. Writers like a container. They like to control the sentences, their ideas and they like this structure. I don't mean to say control, but I do think that there's a little bit of that. And I think, John, with your your background and music, in the way that like, music is off the cuff and it's live and it's energy and it's your essence coming out, right?

And your essence comes out in a different fashion. And I'm not saying one is right of the other because I have learned so much from you because I am like off the cuff that is like basically in my bio. Like I do not plan. I am myself. That is how I do it. But I also think that there is something to be said about pushing each other in to the in the direction of each other. And I wonder, as a cautionary tale, there might be like a place that you don't want to get into because we are trying to navigate how to not, because there's part of me that wants to be too much like Glennon, and there's maybe part of Glennon that wants to be too much like me. And so how do you, how do you guys find the balance in that co-collaboration to not mesh?

Yeah, and I want to know how to Sulaka push you, John. Yeah. Well, it's so funny you mentioned a form of structure and a form of creating some sort of scaffolding so that we know all of the beats and we know exactly what order the beats will come in. Now, for me, I like to know, okay, this is what the essence of what we're saying is. This is the heart of it. If we say this sentence a hundred times in a row and nothing else, we'll have conveyed the heart of the message. And then everything else around that, I like to follow the spirit in the moment

and try to get to the heart of that message in all the different ways that the spirit makes available in that moment. Now, that sometimes is not the best plan. because Solica will you know having something in the trunk

and establishing a certain flow allows for the spirit to move even more freely and you know as someone who I've just been leading

band since I was 15 and I've always been the one that dictates the pace and the flow and the direction when you're on stage and you got a

co-band leader is another star so you got a you got there's a push there's not a bad thing but it's also it's a push from what I'm

used to so you have to figure out how to create space that's not only making space because there's another person that has a viewpoint that you love and you want to share the stage with but also because it just will make it better and how do you find the alchemy of those

two elements coming together and not just okay we have the equal proportions but how do you make the whole gritted into some of the parts that's good that's right well

let us know any more tricks you have it's interesting because I feel like you all are always it feels like you all are circling around a lot of things that we're always circling around okay so like you know so like

you and I have been trying to figure out how to be artists and capitalists for a while at the same time like how do you do art and then promote the art and keep your soul and all of that i wanted to ask you guys i i we were on this lake vacation recently and with the family and the kids took a picture of me abby threw two lines to me on the dock so i was holding two lines boat lines yeah so i was holding two lines like this they were pulling me in opposite directions and it was ridiculous i felt like i was going to fall in and the kids took a picture of me and the i looked at the picture and my first thought was oh here i am trying to

serve God and money. This is my, that is the caption of this. So my question to you all is, how, like when you put out big money, John, at first before I heard it, I was like, I felt betrayed. I was like, what? Then I was like, thank God. Can you talk to us about how you all, when you're in your home and away from the world talk about like what is enough and how does not enoughness ruin ever like what are your talks around art and money and how to stay true to your art and also get it to people it's been an ongoing conversation since day one and you know in the early days it was more tied to like how do we pay our bills, which in some ways makes things a lot easier, because enough is

quite literal in that context. Like, how do we make enough to pay our rent, to pay our phone bills, to do the work that we really want to do that may or may not be profitable? I think that's the double-edged sword of success and the feeling. of the goalposts constantly moving, I think we're both people from the time that we were little, there is no such thing as enough in terms of our creative growth. We're always pushing ourselves. We're always asking ourselves the question, like, how do we make this better? It's a challenge, and it's something that we're navigating. It's something that you explored quite literally

in the making of big money. And I feel, these sort of dual and dueling impulses to want to build something and to make it as big and beautiful as it can be. And then we talk a lot about retirement. We want to shut the whole machine down. We want to hibernate. We want to kind of tuck into ourselves and not have to participate in that way. And so I don't know the answer to that question. I think it's a work in progress. It's something we're constantly reassessing. And that we, yeah. Yeah. You're constantly at war with the monster that's within. We all have one that's within. The best way to deal with it is to stare at the eye and to let it know its place. You've got to

look at it. Because the thing is, if you don't look at it, it's going to create it. creep up behind you and get closer and closer, and then pretty soon it'll be right up on you to take over. We are constantly worn with our nature. So you have to think about the aspect of that, not just from a career perspective, but from a spiritual one. And then you have to think about, well, what is the work that only I can do? do it's the work in the world that only I can do and then let me do that to the best of my ability and what you'll see is there's a resonance in that that makes whatever success or lack thereof in terms of the worldly standard that comes with that worth it so then there's a level of

fulfillment within while you balance this fight with the monster and then from there I think it's a question of how much do you give, you know, biblical principles 10%. But what is giving, how do you define that? And that's really the thing. And as you grow and as the goalpost move and as things expand and your vision of yourself and what you can contribute to the world, to the community that you part of, to society, all that expands, then how you give changes. So it's like a constant, you got a constant grapple with it. And then the systems of the world and the way that things are built are impossibly corrupt so even in the context of a thing that you're doing that you have the greatest of intention of being a part of

there's something or someone or someplace that it hurts it everything in every single vertical of society is rooted in some level of impurity so you have to find a way to to to orient yourself find equilibrium within all of that and that that's a really it's a really conscious effort you have to be very sober minded and you have to continuously push forward in a way where you understand exactly where you're standing at every moment and that's that's the key it's hard but i mean that's as much as we've figured out so far so in your metaphor what is the beast. Is it ambition?

I mean, the beast is different for different people. Everybody has one, though. Don't fool yourself and think you don't have one. I'm reminded a friend of ours is on the dating apps and looking for a partner and was considering potentially, you know, pursuing something as an individual she met on the apps and John said what is his relationship to his beast and it was such an interesting question because you know some people allow their beasts to devour them other people pretend the beast isn't there and and it's something

I've been reflecting upon a lot and what you've been thinking about that boo bottom. I think my beast is a little bit like a chimera. It has like multiple heads to it. But you know, ambition is one of those things that I think especially for men is prized and valued. As a woman, it can be a little trickier. I like ambition. It's the thing that drives me. It's the thing that makes me push through my own resistance. but one of the heads that sprouts from my ambition beast is that that kind of perfectionistic tendency that when taken to an extreme can feel like a kind of prison. And, you know, glad into your earlier point, it's like, yeah, we're writers.

We love our words. We want to say things just the way we want to say them. And so in an on-stage context, like sometimes that can be limited. because I'm so attached to the words that I wrote in my preparation or in my script that I miss the moment. I miss the opportunity to feel the energy of the crowd and to have that really improvisational magic that can only happen when you're actually listening and you're not like reading off of a teleprompter in your mind. Other times, though, it prevents me from experience. experimenting and taking risks and I want to be good so badly that I don't allow myself the freedom to explore and mess up and to open myself up to a kind of uncertainty that feels scary, but that when I lean into it quickly shifts from like, a fear of what I don't know, to a sense of awe and excitement at the mystery of what's possible.

Interesting. Yeah. Did you write that beforehand? No, I did that. Wow. See? But I think that what you both are saying is so true in that the beast or the monster, however you want to categorize it, lives within us and so many people.

myself included at certain times in my life, I think that my identity is that, but I don't know that it's maladaptive. I don't know that it's working not in my best interest in terms of my like soul's best, highest best interest. And so I don't know, what do you think the beast is for you? Well, it's interesting because everyone says ambition, but ambition is just an empty word. It's like what ambition for what is the question. because ambition for what like if if the if we define what we're ambitious about in a way that is true to us i mean i was listening to an interview that you did actually we made our entire family watch it john and you i think quoted monk and you said a genius is the one who sounds most like himself so if ambition

is aligned with that for a creative that my ambition is to make make my life and my art and my relationship most myself, then unbridled ambition might not be dangerous. But if ambition is tied to relevance and the metrics that the world does and being perceived a certain way, it is a monster. So like, Sue Laker, when you say ambition, what do you mean? What are you ambitious for? So I think, you know, we started this by talking about. about what's enough. And I think where ambition can dip into dangerous territory is when it's an unconsidered yearning for more.

But you're not defining what more is. It's just like more, more, more and more and more. And you start to just feel like this kind of like gluttonous appetite, but there's no, you haven't identified what more is and and what's meaningful to you about what you want more of. And so when I find myself in this kind of cycle of just I'm adding things, I'm doing things, and I don't even really know why or if I'm enjoying them, that's where it starts to get tricky. And John, what are you ambitious for?

And what is your monster, your beast? Huh. Well, see, I want to be great. And that requires you to have a certain focus. And I feel like that focus can be wonderful if it's not misaligned with your quiet time with God. if you start to make that become your god that you worship then your talent becomes an idol and your gift that you've been given to cultivate to work on to share becomes a form of self-indulgence even if it's helping people now that's the thing right there yes even if it's If it's helping people, my belief is we're not here just to do the thing that we've been made to do. We're here to be on a spiritual journey with the creator. I love that.

The creator creates and created us in his image, and it's a beautiful image. It's an image of creation, of movement, of spontaneity. There's also this vision of people, and everybody's beautiful, and everybody has their own. own divine spark and it's a light within them and it's you can lose track of it but you can never ever fully lose it so everybody you see everybody you're supposed to see all of this love and energy that's coming from these people and that is not work that's not head down that's a way of life that's a form of existence and you need quiet time and you need time to reflect on all of the wonders of what that is and being communion.

So for me, that's the big thing. The pursuit of some imagined level of achievement in a pantheon that's also equally imagined to create a legacy for what. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard Things for free. There are so many hair care products out there. It's overwhelming. And if you are someone who loves coloring your hair,

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just in general so in leave it at that but I was talking to a friend Brandy my friend Brandy Carlisle who was in the middle of finishing her album and doing she's the best and she was doing a little bit better mentally than I was and we were talking about it. And she said, have you been writing? And I said, no, I've been activating and organizing. And she said, I just don't think that you're obsessed enough with anything right now. Huh.

And I just blew it off. I was like, okay, whatever. And then that night in bed, I was like, and so my question is you two deal with hard things all the time. Okay? Like in your personal lives, in the world, you're not bypassers of pain. How is art connected to anxiety? Does it help you?

Do you have to be obsessed with something to survive? And also is anxiety a precursor to creation? You want me to, you know, you are you going? You go. Yeah. Okay, you want me to go for, okay. Okay. I'm thinking. No, I think everything beautiful has to come from some level of tension.

joy come from pain there's never a scenario where you have an expression of a person that doesn't come without some sort of journey or some sort of epiphany or realization that come from being

in opaque gray darkness the essence of of creative expression is catharsis, it's release. It's this moment that is a shining beacon when you are lost. And now I want to share it on stages and on the rooftop. I want to go. So anxiety is a part of the equation, not necessarily to creation,

but it's a part of the human experience that leads to the impulse to create and uncertainty rather and I believe that. I believe you have to have a it's kind of what we're talking about facing the beast. You have to have an element of

darkness within the context of you shining the light. What about you, Sue? I'm forgetting who said this, but someone said this, is there not my word, said that a mosaic is a conversation between what's broken. And so it's not so much that, for me, the creative impulse necessarily arises from pain.

Like, I think of, like, most children who have this unbridled connection to their creativity. they're playing make believe they're tapping into their imaginations they're making gloriously messy finger paintings it's not because they're like a brooding self-destructive artist who then feels the impulse to make the masterpiece but i i like and it really resonates with me what you said um about it stemming from tension and tension for me can be a question that i find myself circling around It can be an attempt to figure out how to put together a mosaic of broken pieces or at least to understand how they're in conversation with each other. And, you know, I think the challenging thing about creativity as we get older is it can be both a self to anxiety and a source of anxiety in and of itself. And so at some point, that pilot light of self-consciousness ignites as we get older and we start to sort ourselves into categories. Like, I'm a bad artist. I'm a good artist.

The arts are not for me, whatever it is. And so I think we both very much believe that everyone is deeply creative and more than that, that there's great value. in cultivating a creative practice. And so once again, where things get tricky for me is when you enter, you know, trying to make a living from your creative work into the equation. So if I'm by myself and I'm journaling or I'm just painting for myself, whatever it might be, that is a source of joy. It's an antidote to whatever is plaguing me.

The second, I try to imagine anyone, let alone, you know, a faceless public, consuming that creative work, that's where things start to shift. I start to wonder, is this good, is this interesting, will this be criticized, or worse of all, will this be entirely ignored, whatever it is. and that gives me a great deal of anxiety. Yeah. You know, I don't think that artists until the modern age, there's not really been a precedent for the way that art is taking the place

as a commodity in society. So I don't really think that the relationship to creating, similar to like when you think about a child, they're trying to make sense of the world. There's a natural tension to the way that they are and the way that the world is. And their impulse is to be a certain way, which over time,

as you say, that pilot light of self-conscious, they learn to not be that way, or hopefully they retain it. But I think that's the best example, which is not tied to an audience or a profit. is only because of, you know, the invention of these media delivery systems, the phonograph record, the RCA Victor, and then the CD and streaming and TV and all of the ways of the satellite being able to broadcast the thing. But for centuries, artists in society were the ones who, they knew literature,

and they had a certain wisdom, and they were the griots and the madrigals and the troubados and the toastellers, and they had the oral tradition, and they would pass it on, since the first drum and the writers and the scribes would create the history and the mythology of a place and a people and pass it on. And it was a way, it was a part of the fabric of everyday life. And it was music and writing and painting. And it became a part of how people gather in community. And that's when it actually had, I believe, the deepest meaning that we've gotten away from. And the things that we resonate with most of the things that have that meaning that are also entertaining.

But these things are much more than entertainment. It's a form of our communal gathering and spiritual practice. And if we look at them like that, I think that makes it a lot easier. Now, it's harder because we're in this system. Again, that's impossibly corrupt. But the aspect of seeing it for what it is helps me a lot. And children are a great, great example of that because, you know, they don't know yet. And the tension with them is not as much anxiety as it is, wow, this is my nature.

And people are trying to box me in. And their nature is the truest to the source of creativity itself. Yeah. And they're just something about being the sub-the-sub. subject of the artist and not switching into perceiving yourself like that is whatever my beast is something about that because sometimes when I'm saying to Abby I just don't know if I'm doing enough if I'm being good enough if I'm giving enough I don't think that's what I mean because I know I am I think what I mean is I don't know if I'm being perceived as giving enough being good

in a being whatever, which is gross to admit, but I think that's what I mean. Am I being perceived? It's not all about output. It's about how I'm being perceived. And that's what an artist being a part of this modern world, what is added to it, right? When did that start for you? When did you start to feel the weight of perception? I mean, probably really young, like as a young girl. and just noticing that the way people perceived me was tied to my power to move in the world. Or sometimes tied to a withdrawal of power, a withdrawal of validation. I mean, I can pinpoint for me like an exact moment where my relationship to creativity changed. And like the phrase we use between the two of us is creative and true.

And so, like, eighth grade, I had always loved to write. I was doing it in my journal, and I had this wonderful English teacher who invited us as an extra credit project to write a short story, and I was so excited. I was like, oh, yes, this is my moment where I'm going to move beyond the journal, and I'm going to do a really good job. And so I spent all of spring break filling up an entire yellow legal pad with a novellular. It was like 70 pages or however many pages are in a legal pad. And I handed this thing in and the next week everyone got their assignments back except me.

And I was thinking to myself, oh, I did such a good job that my teacher is waiting to have a one-on-law with me. I was expecting publication, like possibly a literary agent, maybe a parade. I don't know. And later that day, I got summoned. the school psychologist's office, and they were holding my yellow legal pad with my story on it to discuss some of the concerning themes in my story. So I was on a real reading journey in eighth grade and had been heavily drawing upon some of my most recent inspiration. I had just read Lolita's Nabokov and a Paul Joel's novel set in Morocco. So my novella...

As eighth graders do. As eighth graders do. My novella featured a protagonist who was a 13-year-old sex worker set in an opium den in Tangiers. You're so awesome. It's funny to me now, but I was so horrified. And the worst part was the teacher never said a word to me about it. and I felt like I had done a bad thing. I felt humiliated.

I was honestly grateful that she didn't tell my parents about it. But it took me until the age of 22 to ever show my writing to anybody again. Wow. And so I think, you know, we all have these creative injuries at some point in childhood or adolescence. or adulthood, where you lose that pure connection to your creativity, where you become conscious of the perception of others. And then the work becomes like trying to get back to that free-flowing space. And so for me, like, I write all of my first drafts in my journal because I have to trick myself into thinking, this is the writing that doesn't count. It's the writing

just for me. The second I open a word doc, I get scared. I freeze up. It's like the blinking is just like a warning sign of all the possible pitfalls and dangers that can befall me. And I can't write anything true. I start to self-edit before I've even figured out what I'm even saying. Me too. I tell Abby, I'm like, I think this is why Jesus only wrote in the sand. Like, I can't write things that will be stuck forever. That's terrifying to me suddenly. Totally. Do you have, did you, do you remember any creative injury, John?

Or did you skip over that part? Oh, no. I had a wealth of, a season. I think about my upbringing. And it's so funny because there's a whole period of time that, didn't feel particularly creative and seemed pretty much like a purgatory. There's a lot of neighborhood bullies and a lot of antics, a lot of different energy, you know, a very classic American upbringing in a suburb outside of New Orleans, very provincial.

Kenna, Louisiana, we've got a railroad track separating it. And, you know, where you got a railroad track in a river is a certain mythology to that. But you did have some significant creative injuries. Oh, yeah. After that? After that. And, like, John always says to me, you have to get your rejection in. And so rejection was a really big part of those.

early years and figuring out how, in spite of being perceived in various ways, what you do with that injury, John has his own school psychologist story, bizarrely enough. Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, don't we all? Yeah, and it really is, people always say the one-liners about rejection and all that, And it kind of can feel like bullshit, except that it's the truest thing, that if you are so fearful, like the number one fear is like public shaming, right? It's like any sort of someone's going to tell me I'm not good enough. So the best thing that can happen to you is that early on. And then you survive it because then you're not equating it with death anymore.

But I also think that it's about, because I think that that happened to me, I had a guidance counselor that she said to me, Abby, you're never going to make it playing soccer. She literally said that. Like, you're never going to play soccer. Like, you're never going to be able to make money play soccer. So you need to, like, work harder on your studies. I mean, she had a point. But I think that because the way that our constitutions are made up

and the way that these crafts and these gifts sit with inside us, those things, whether it be a counselor or somebody saying, like this isn't this isn't right with your novella like it that kind of creates the trajectory of like oh thank you like and we don't know this for very much later until we can actually prove it to ourselves that we in fact are writers or musicians or athletes and so there's a part of me that though it probably would have been less painful i think that there that element is almost like that creative injury is almost part of the impulse that the way we are wired pushes us in the direction of either proving that one rejection wrong. Yeah, it's the tension. He was talking

that. It creates the tension of creation. You know, it's interesting. You said proving it wrong, because I think you're someone who responds to a creative injury, especially if it's externally inflicted by being like watch. You'll see. And it's like, I'm. I'm someone who isn't always able to do that. I'm someone who's like, oh, you saw something about me that I didn't fully clock and shame on me for not seeing that. And I immediately assume, my reflex is to assume that whatever that outward perception is is truer than my own perception.

I have to actively work at reorienting myself to. rejection or to creative injury. And so I'm so curious, John, for you, where that comes from, because you had a lot of people from the outside telling you what you're doing is wrong or what you're doing is bad or whatever it is. I don't know where it came from in the early days other than just a drive and intuition and a sense of knowing. That's the kind of thing we were talking about earlier, where you feel this real compulsion to be and express authentically. And it doesn't matter if there's aspects of rejection

or aspects of tension involved with it is just, you're true as self, and that's ultimately the best that you can do. And I guess I attribute that to having great mentors and great parents to instill a sense of values in that way. But also, I think about the history of the planet Earth and the greatest souls have been the most rejected. So I think the process of it, I've gone through now, it's like I can articulate it, is first I'd like to examine what is said to a degree, whatever it is, because you always want to have a sense of being able to be objective, and that's part of a foundation of humility within. You have that, but then you've got

to look, well, most of the things that I care about are rejected by the world. So, and the people who count the most, what do they think? What do they say? And then ultimately that inner knowing, you just got to know and let that drive you, because that's the one. Because if you're not doing it for that, everything else is external. That's right. What are the things that you care about the most that the world rejects? Well, I mean, look around. I mean, look around.

That's what the album is talking about, it's just a tip of the iceberg of talking about. Just look at the aspects of what's happening. we've we've stretched things beyond the natural limitation in almost every category and it's created this epidemic of loneliness and isolation now we're not in a time where everything is dark and I don't want to be doom and gloom but if you look at the aspect of things that we've achieved and you measure that against the level of spiritual and moral decay. It's unfathomable. And what's the culprit? Mammin, money, big money. You look at what what's driving everybody? What's our ultimate value system? What's the thing that underlines everything? And everybody who is a part of this system has to deal with the ramifications of that. So I just feel like the purity of what we could be and who we are as souls on this earth, this planet earth, our common home, which has been stretched beyond its natural limitation in pursuit of what? I mean, I don't want soapbox, y'all, but that's just kind of, you know, look around.

But we still got some joy warriors out here, pushing, shaking. But even in a smaller level, like, I think of jazz music, which in this day and age is something that, like, a guidance counselor, as your guidance counselor did, it's probably not likely to advise you to pursue as a career path that's going to pay the goal. Right? No, no. Listen, you got to do it because you love it. but that's interesting because it starts there that's connected it's like if the thing that we're all going towards is money and the big money then then you're being advised as a nine year old to give up the thing that you that expresses you because it won't ultimately serve this thing that we're

all guiding everybody towards so that's all connected oh you laying it out glen go ahead give my sermon up like if ambition were tied to something else if ambition were tied to like every adult around you is trying to figure out who you are at your essence and then figure out how to guide you on a path that will allow you to be that forever and then we figured out because even the term like earn a living is so insane like oh my god we've we accept that we accept that we have to earn our right to exist and it's it's a whole paradigm that would change how we served children i think if we changed what we're ambitious for well and i also think it's it's not allowing us to fully develop our human essence because it's being it's not being cultivated in us throughout our younger

adolescence and younger years it's you're told you need to go do this you need to go do that and you need to train and become coder and get into computer science because that's the future and that's where all the jobs and the money are. But then you're getting coders who aren't completely developed or evolved. And so even the evolution of the way that tech and science, we're not, nobody's their full selves because it's being, it's not being cultivated in us as children. And so you show up to to be our authentic self and you don't even know what the hell that means. That's right. You're like, I know how to code. beloved

friend Liz gives what she calls her purpose talk, which I'm sure we've all heard, which is, you know, this sort of toxic messaging that we receive from the time we're very, very young, that you have to

find your singular purpose. You have to master that purpose, then you have to monetize it and become the best at the world in it. And it's so much pressure and she you know i think of her every day she offers like such a gentler corrective which instead of being fixated or identifying a passion or a purpose just following the threads of

your curiosity and you know i think um so many people suffer from feeling like they haven't found a purpose or a passion, and more than that, they haven't earned a living by monetizing that sense of purpose or passion. And I think we do a great disservice, not just to children, but to our ongoing possibilities of changing our minds about what we're curious. about of being able to pursue something because you're obsessed with it because it's fun without necessarily having to figure out how to translate that into something that pays your bills. That's right. That's why I feel sad for you, Sulika, that your painting is so good.

I know. I mean, that's what I'm thinking about when I'm like, oh, no, she's so good at this. What are you going to do? because I am protected from my painting ever being monetized. No, that's not true. No, I'm first in line to buy a painting. Okay, well, you, you would. That one.

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I have two more questions. I know you guys are so busy, but number one, I want to know what your last argument was about in my life. That's my favorite thing is figuring out what people argue about. And then I also want to know what each of your, I don't even know what the words are, relationship to orientation towards spirituality and God, two completely different things. Yeah, that's nice. I love we talking about all of these major themes. Abundance out of order is gluttony. And that's a deep world we're in. I think when we

when we think about the second question, you mean, what do we believe or what will we even separately like how do you how is your relationship to god separate like when you talk about how to know where what's real creativity and how you're able to keep going even when the world is rejecting what I'm thinking in my head is okay he must have a real daily practice with God because the people that I know who are in daily practice with God, it's like, you know, when you're painting and you put the jesso whatever on, it's like it protects you. It like protects the canvas from all the other shit you know what I mean? So when I'm not in that, I'm way more susceptible to what the world

thinks of me. Yes, yes, yes. No, yeah. I'm Christian. I believe that we are in a broken world so that is helping to understand and also have empathy for the brokenness of this whole system, this whole aspect of our time on earth is to figure out how do we shine our light and point to the source of all things. For me, when I think about Jesus Christ and what that really the message of the gospel is that the world is broken, but there's hope. And if you think about hope, it's sometimes hard to have a hard to see. So that's the idea of faith. And then that's the practice. How do you instill faith even in times when you don't see a hope, when you don't have a vision of the best in people or the best in in the systems of the world.

And you're trying to move through the world and you're trying to be light and you're trying to be the best version of yourself and to raise your gifts to their highest divine potential in order. It's a, it's, uh, it definitely is helpful for me. Um, and I think that, It's a way of living that has in many facets been corrupted by people. So when you see the corruption of it in different ways, that's also a challenge against it. But then the truest and most pure essence of it is in the Word of God. So I try to connect to that and define that through every single action, every single moment, and every motivation.

In a nutshell, it's how you live. Yeah. It's how you live. There's a way to live that's Christian-like. There's the fruits of the spirit. There's aspects of understanding that you have for the origin of all things, the state of humanity, and how you treat people, how you exist, that.

can point people in a direction of the divine. That's what, I mean, there's a lot more to that. And it's a journey. And there's so much that can be said about that, about this one. But it's how you live. You can profess something and not live it. Yeah. That's like when she's the opposite of when Gandhi said,

we love your Jesus. Your Christians just aren't any, I don't see Jesus. and you're Christians. And Sue Lake is like the flip of that. Yes. You guys are so cool. Yeah. You two are so cool.

I said to Glennon, I want a non-hologram double date. Okay, but can we flip the question on you too? Yeah, that's what was curious about that. You're like, oh, right. Which one? Our most recent fight or our relationship

to religion or our idea? of God. Both. Okay, well, we got in a huge fight last night, right? I wouldn't say it was a huge fight. It wasn't. We had a dust up. We just got in a little verbal conundrum.

And Abby, who is much more good at being earnest and careful than I am, because I tend to shut down and get defensive, walked us. through it like she was a therapist and we slowed it down and found the fear inside of each of us. It was like the most lesbian situation. We were doing some real good parts work. We were doing some good parts work. Yeah. So we are working on when there is conflict, not mostly me, not shutting down and hiding and protecting myself. It is very hard for me to stay open and soft when someone has pointed out something in me that I don't like. Sue Laca, it's a version of when the world says mean things.

And I'm like, okay, you're right. And I'm just going to shut down as opposed to some, the inherent like worth that some people have that they're like, I can step into this conflict and survive. I can keep going and create and survive. I tend to be more of like a snail who just goes back into the shop. Yeah. And the story you have is that you're bad or that you're not good. and then the way that you respond is in protection of that or for the fear of that.

And so I think that having these kind of, because over time, and this is the way you guys know this in marriage and relationship, you start to know the other person so well that the way that you can go into conflict, you start to go through the perspective of their perception and what they what they're going through and so then that changes the way that you would do it and sometimes that's actually not good because it's allowing them to keep hiding or for me to not say the thing that I need to say in the moment when you know yes and what we're working on you guys that we figured out last night is I think that the meanest thing a couple can do to each other is so here we do this thing where I'm saying something that's like pretty I'm saying words

that are kind but my energy is so judgmental and I am judging the shit out of you but I know how to say the right word so this can't be proven in a court of law okay Abby is reading my energy and is like WTF why are you being that way what we're trying to avoid at all costs is going into that's not what I was feeling that's not what I was thinking you can't prove it I said the right words and like gaslighting the other one. Do you know what I mean? How you're like, I'm reading you. I know that's what you're thinking. And so we have to admit that energy to each other if we're going to get to the kernel of the thing. It's the way in which when you've done a lot of therapy, the same way you can speak medically or legalese, you can speak therapy. Yes. And you can say

things unimpeachably. But the process, untransformed feelings are. still behind those words. We, you know, we've devised a shorthand. We have a code word. Our code word is lunch meat. And it's for situations when, like, we're in our feelings. We're tempted to shut down to withdraw because maybe we're feeling hurt or, you know, one of us is traveling and we haven't responded to a phone call. Instead of doing the thing, I think, that so many of us do when we perceive the other person is, when you're feeling hurt is to, yeah, to get into your feelings, to be passive-aggressive, to lash out, to shut, whatever it is, we just say lunchmeat, which is the cue that what we need to do is to,

to double down on expressing our love to each other. And when we do that, then, you know, the rest of the argument feels less like an argument and more like an actual conversation. So good. I'm going to steal it. Last night, Abby said, can we have a safe word? You called it a safe word. This was not during sex.

It was during the argument. And she, and I was like, no, that's. And so now we will be doing that. Yes. Okay? We will make one after this episode. We are so grateful for you. We, yesterday, which was, I've never heard Abby say in her life, she was sitting there reading

something about you guys and she goes, I have a crush on John. And I was like, that Abby Wambach is not something I've ever heard you say. Friendship crush. She said, no, you said a personality crush. And I said, I have a personality crush on Suleka. Yeah. So you guys are a personal crush. personality crushes. And we adore you. And please, next time, can we please just have a couch

time with no cameras? Not that it will matter if it's not monetized, but I think we should try it anyway. Yeah. I know you both are tired and you want to spend your time together. And so I just want to say, I appreciate you choosing to spend this time here with us in these boxes, within the boxes. And let's do this in live in real life at some point. We love you both. Really love you guys. The personality crushes are mutual. We love you both. We look forward

to our couch double date. Oh yeah. Come on, couch. All right, Pod Squad. We'll see you next time. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans

who want to stay human. And you can follow us at we can do hard things on Instagram and at we can do hard things show on TikTok.