We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Katie Gavin: How to Know What You Want

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

We all have something inside us that knows exactly what we want.  Katie Gavin joins us to talk about:  How to identify that kernel of desire inside—and then have the courage to follow it;�� Why love addiction can feel like being stuck on a “treadmill in the cosmos”; and the moment Katie called Glennon a Femme/Dom—and how it changed Glennon’s life forever.  Katie Gavin’s album: What A Relief About Katie:  Katie Gavin is a musician and member of the pop band MUNA, and released her debut solo album What A Relief this past October 2024—an album about a deep desire for connection and the obstacles standing in the way of achieving that. Gavin’s explorations of desire and intimacy feel time-worn and necessary – songs that might teach a generation if not how to live, exactly, then at least how to look within oneself for guidance about how to move forward. Katie is currently in the studio with MUNA working on their forthcoming album. Follow We Can Do Hard Things on: Youtube — @wecandohardthingsshow   Instagram — @wecandohardthings TikTok — @wecandohardthingshow

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. When I tell you that we have been waiting so long and with such anticipation to do this conversation, we are talking today to one of the most important artists in our family's life. Yep. Not just artists, but people, activists, just way of being. People we look towards. And that's Katie Gavin. Katie Gavin, you'll see. this conversation healed parts of us, I think. It made us feel hopeful for the future for the

first time in a while. It is about so many things. It's about how to find that little kernel of desire inside of you and how to have the courage to unleash it out into the world. It's about intergenerational healing, about how to honor what's come before us while also letting go of what we don't want to take with us into the future. It's about recovery and addiction and how to begin to make our lives that have become small, bigger. It's about listening to the signals in our body. It's about how to live right now in a way that makes this planet habitable and more beautiful for the next generation.

It's hard to believe that all of this is in the conversation. It's so beautiful. You'll see. It's literally one of my favorite conversations we've ever had on Week and New Hard Things. Same. Katie Gavin is not only our personal hero, but is also a musician and member of the pop band, Muna, of course. Life so fun, life so fun, you know, and released her debut solo album, What a Relief,

which is the soundtrack of our home, this past October 2024. It's an album about desire for connection and the obstacles in the way of achieving that. Gavin's explorations of desire and intimacy are time-worn and so necessary right now. And her songs truly are sort of like a clarion call for her generation about how to live and how to look inside yourself for guidance and move forward. She is currently in the student. studio with Muna working on their forthcoming album. And I just want to say this is going to, I'm attaching this to Katie's bio. She is now my best friend.

Yes. Abby Wambach's best friend. Yeah. That's my dream. And also she calls me a femme dom. If you want to know what that means. This is what's going to be going on our new bios now. Katie Gavin is now our best friend.

Enjoy. Yes Katie, our girl Yes! Hi babies, hi, so good to see you. Oh my gosh. Katie, this might be a normal day for you, but this is a very exciting day for us. Shut off.

No, I'm excited. I'm nervous. Oh, God, us too. Katie, this is my sister Amanda. You know us, but you two haven't met. Hi, babe. Hi, Katie. Very happy to know you.

It's so nice to meet you. Where are y'all? This looks so good. Oh, really? We're in our basement in a little corner that looks like this and the whole rest of the room is shit. Totally. And Amanda is in her son's corner of the bedroom, right? Yeah.

But technically we're at home. Right. yeah we're at home where are you i'm in my band studio i came here because i was like oh i want to like record with a microphone and i got here an hour ago and i literally just figured out how to like get the microphone working with my computer how do i have a studio and it's this hard to do this. I don't know where anything is. I have like big time. We call it lead singer syndrome. Like I'm just, I don't know what's going on. I think I have that. I think you have lead. I think I have that. I'm going to call it that. That sounds so much better than the how I've referred to it.

How do you refer to it? Well, I just call it beginner's mind, Katie. I think it's a Buddhist concept to not be aware of what's going on. Right. And to just be freshly surprised constantly. Yeah, yeah, totally. Speaking of freshly surprised, we have to, basically, we're going to do our best to just be cool about all this. But by the end of the hour, you're going to understand how actually important you are to our family. Borderline, creepy. Yeah, I kind of feel a little bit like a little creepy about it. No, stop it.

You're the most played person in our house. you are there are a few rooms that I'm in one thing that's true about Miss Katie Gavin is that put a group of old lesbians in a room and they're going to bitch about the next generation for six hours

until somebody says Katie Gavin yeah that's true and then all the old lesbians are going to go yes respect that is the only thing I care about I think you know this for me it's like Like the elders know everything.

And by the way, we have to, we have to actually be defining our terms here, though, because I feel like a lot of your, what you're talking about is old lesbians are just the same age as the lesbians that I hang out with. So I don't know where, this is an interesting, but anybody who is, like, anybody who is at all older than me. First of all, anyone that is at all younger than me is my child. I feel like you're probably the same way. I'm like, if I meet a lesbian that's like three years younger than me, I'm like, you'll understand when you've lived life. You know what I mean?

I totally hear that. It's like, yeah. But I, it's, and it's so freeing to be, I feel like there is something in lesbian culture where it's like the older we get, the like, like, we're seen as like hotter and wiser and more revered. And that's really how I feel about like anybody who has lived a little bit more than me. I'm just like all I care about is impressing you and being in your good graces so while you are doing really well with that Brett can you show Katie just like what just happened the other day with

Emily and Amy and Melissa yeah hold on just a second oh my god wait were you there where were where were they I just follow them wherever they are and I ended up in a room with them recording this Like, I just recently got to know Katie Gavin from Moena. She is an amazing human being. I love her. I just, she's a really wonderful human being. And she, I went to go see her play, her solo show in New York. And I met her friends.

And I, it was like, I was going to say a kid in a candy store, but it was more like, here I am this person in my age with my experience and trying to use the tools that I have. These young people were so inspiring. First of all, they were all non-by-ways, all her friends. One of them was talking about how they flew to Egypt so that they could try to sneak over the border or get food to come to the scenes. Like, on the ground, complete courage

that they wouldn't even call courage. It's just the way that they live their truth. So I'm like, y'all tell me what to do and I'll do my best as a middle age, like, whatever. Totally. Totally. that is my bestie right there that is my bestie i really love emily so much you know like when you meet somebody and it's just like immediately you don't have to explain anything to each other you're

just like you're one of my you're one of my people yeah it was so easy with her and um yeah she came and did closer to fine at my solo show in new york it was really wonderful because i feel like Emily is one of those icons that I think it might be a beginner's mind, like it has no idea that she's an icon. I know, I know. So it was really special to have like her in front of a crowd of young lesbians and non-binary who were just like absolutely losing their shit. Also with Parisa, this is my friend who like definitely is kind of like the like

like on the deepest level of activism that I've witnessed in my life, but I've never seen them like they're backstage at a lot of my shows in New York and I've never seen them like fan girl over anybody and they really, yeah, they really lost their shit for Emily. Oh, Emily deserves that. Emily does deserve that. Yeah, Emily deserves the world. So I'm just going to tell you a couple little tidbits of how you have affected my life. First of all, I think we first heard Muna when we were living in Florida. Our kids were playing you constantly. Silk chiffon became my whole personality.

And then I had a vision of myself in roller blades on the strand. I was like, this is my personality. And I'm going to manifest this. And so I, in the first week that we lived in California, I got, I made Abby go by me roller skates. And I roller skated down the strand. And then I fell so hard that strangers had to stop and asked me if I need an ambulance. Right.

And so that was, I was like, yeah, life's so fun. Where did you fall? Do you fall on your ass? Yeah. In my head. And then someone said, does she need an ambulance? And I, that was, I had a 10-minute, so much fun life. Fun and no.

Anyway, I try, Katie. No, okay. But this is the thing about roller skates is that, like, they are so dangerous that my worst, my worst falls have been on roller skates i have some friends that are derby girls and they like you know during the pandemic i really like joined everybody and like just becoming like manically hyper fixated on roller skating um like we what happened we needed life to be so fun katie we needed life yeah we really did but i okay like i have now made a distinction between if i'm If I'm outside, I have to have roller blades because skates are so sensitive.

And I've had, I've cracked phones. I've, like, been in bed for three days with, like, a swollen knee. Like, it's, it's a serious game when you're on skates. It makes me feel better. But, you know, what we should do? We should go to, like, an indoor rink and get you back on the skates. I want to do that. Because, like, you know, any little rock.

or any little like change in elevation or like a crack you're going down on roller skates I had the socks Katie I had I just you I'm sure you look cute as hell my god oh my God right up until the fall on the ass it was a good look yeah totally I mean yeah it's like that's what really draws us in is like it's so it's cuter it's cuter than the blades but it is a really extreme sport it was extreme okay and then the other thing is when we were in, we finally got to talk to each other because we had had a really good friendship. You just didn't know about it yet. And then we were in Mexico with a Brandy's thing. Oh yeah, we ran into them at the airport. And we're passing them. And there was a lot of us at the gate. We were going to

girls just won a weekend in Mexico and Muno was performing there. Yeah. And so this lovely group of people walks by and one of them looks at me and says, I love you. And I was doing. I know. And I do my like humble, sweet face. And I'm like, thanks. And then I keep walking. And Tish, my daughter, we get like 10 steps away. And she stops me. And she goes, and we don't really cuss to each other. She was, what the fuck? She said, mom, fix it. Go back. Do you know who that was? And I was like, no way. So then we go back. Okay. Then Katie, I don't know if you remember, but we're at a table in Mexico. you come over and I have to sort of apologize because I've accidentally in a podcast that we were recording with Brandy and Kath in front of a thousand people said, Muna is my sexuality and what I meant. Wait, wait, wait, pause. Because do you know that I was there? Oh. In the room. I was standing in the back of the room. Oh, that's great. Like a creep. I mean, I think what's happening is that we are being creeps for each other.

Yes. So it cancels to other out and we're just like friends. Yeah. That's it. I've decided. Because I felt like I was eavesdropping. Like I was like, I guess I should I not be here? But I'm like, I want to know. Well, based on what she said where

Muna is her sexuality, I could understand why you might feel like you were eavesdropping in on something that maybe you shouldn't have been hearing because, Glennon, you have to explain What I meant was, and Amanda, I've tried, I called my sister. I was like, I said this, but I really need you to explain to you what I meant. What I meant was that there's a lot of different expressions of gender on the stage and, like, energies in, in Muna that I relate to every single one of them. I didn't mean.

Whatever gone in, fine. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, Abby was like, whatever. And when I said sexuality, what I meant was not. sexuality. That was just a word I pulled. I know what you are saying. And I think that's beautiful, but I would take it as more of a compliment if it was the other thing. Yeah. But here's actually what I think. Here's what I think, Katie. I think the way that you all move on the stage and the way that you perform with such fucking freedom, that wasn't something that for Glennon for many years,

straight white person and now and now a queer person it's like the ogs weren't allowed to express themselves in the way that you all do and so there's this um jealousy this like this like craving of like and watching you do it it makes us open up and it makes us feel like oh we can maybe express ourselves in that way and that is i think a form of sexual I don't know if it's like pointed in the direction of necessarily you got, I mean, hopefully not, but you keep. But do you know what I mean? Yeah, I do. And I remember hearing this part of this conversation.

I think like you and Brandy were going back and forth about like the feelings that come up when you see like younger queers have like a more liberated sense of self. and have the ability to, like, move in public and express their sexuality without as much fear. And I can imagine that that's really complex. I can actually relate a little bit because I do feel like the, like, progress of queer representation has been, has moved in such an exponential way that, like, even, you know, Muna started as a band, like, publicly in 2014.

So this was like, I'm like, guys, when was marriage equality? Was it 2015? Yeah, okay. Yeah. That was a nice time while it lasted. I'm like, 2015 to 2025. So I feel like we have seen a big shift even in our time. Like I remember us having many conversations in the beginning, like deciding if we were going

to talk about our sexuality. And I also know that this conversation differs a lot between, like, people who present as more femme and people who present as more mask. I think it was a different type of bravery for Naomi and Josette. And they also had to go on, like, a different journey of being comfortable, asserting, like, this is how I want to represent myself and it might not make sense to like stylists that are used to like mass media projects or whatever. But like the people who get it like are going to get it. So we've seen that difference. But I also like I totally understand that confusing mix

of emotions of like, damn, am I envious of this person or is it like actually inviting me into like, is this a sign that this is a space that I'm safe to move into now? And like, what does that feel like for me? And also it's so there's like an irony there because it's like we wouldn't be able to express ourselves in that way had it not been for. like the ways that those who came before us, like, showed up and fought and really fought, you know? Like, gay liberation was no joke. Like, people put their physical safety on the line so many times so that we can, like, fake hump each other on stage, you know. And it was so worth it, Katie.

I know, and I'm so grateful for the fight. They fought so you could hump. It's hot so that I might hump. Yes. And I will. When you came up to me at the table and I tried to explain this, which I didn't need to, and you said, I understand that what you're saying about the sexuality expression or the gender expression, because you said, because you are, you are, you are fans.

Dom. Yes. Okay. Now, Katie, when I am asked to explain who are you in an interview, when I walk down the street and someone and they say, who are you? I say, Katie Gavin says I'm femme dom. It's so true, you guys. It's what she says now.

It's my favorite. I don't like labels. I've never accepted any of them except for that. And the only problem with it is that I don't understand what the hell it means. It just sounds right. Although when I said it to my son, oh god he said please don't say that to me again yeah he kind of got a little cringy i think it might mean something else can you explain to me what i've been introducing myself as i hope it's like a

secret society yeah of like this is just the energy i get from you it's also like like you're my femme sister like i and i think that this is so you know there's so much discourse and like abby you might know more about this than i do because i think in some ways like i'm not actually as learned about like the femme butch like culture and history as i should be but i do recognize myself as being like a part of that lineage um but i think that um to me femme dom uh means that i have embraced that um one i'm like i'm super queer um and two i have like a strong feminine energy that like doesn't take away from my queerness like i love to get glammed up i love to like look hot and like have that be a part of my power you know and i think the

dom part it also comes from this history of um in like a femme butch dynamic maybe in it from a time where um people weren't as comfortable like expressing desire like in an open way um I think because, like, butchers are in a position where they're not as, like, physically safe to move through the world because they're clockable as queer. I think, like, femmes maybe took on this role of being the ones to, like, initiate more, being, like, more in control of, like, I know what's going on here. And, like, I'm going to make this happen. And I think that kind of energy. like also applies to other things um i think that another way to explain like my my view of femme like being a femme and being kind of like domy is like that there's something about my it's just like

separating this idea it's really basic i guess in the end it's like separating this idea of um like someone who is feminine needs to like take a more passive role in things like I think I see you as someone who's like you've really taken so much agency in your life like you've really claimed the agency to be like I'm going to create the life that I want for myself and I'm going to create a community like around me that feels so good and I want that for all my people too like the kind of like active um role that I've seen you play in your world I'm like that's a dom like you're just you're just doming it put it on my gravestone it's so true and I mean Katie like you're just that you're the way that your brain is like moving right now I just

appreciate all of that thoughtfulness so much and I don't think that I've ever thought of because of my, my sports background. And yes, I'm, I'm mask and I am very like queer presenting. It's interesting how I've never thought of my safety because of my sport. But I do think that Glennon has this ability to pass as a straight person, which gives her a little bit more privilege and safety in certain spaces. And I think that you've noticed that in our relationship and marriage over time. Oh, my God. That's why I can be fired up.

It's like when I'm with a friend who's black, and I can get away with being a different way. It's just a level of safety and how you can move in the world. Yeah. And having to navigate that individually with like every relationship. You know, Naomi and Joe and I have had a lot of conversations about like when I should be like, you know, a bulldog on their behalf and when they really don't want me to get into it with people. Exactly. I have that conversation all the time. Like stop. This is not because you, you'll be safe if you start this fight. I mean, I get some things. And I can be with

people who are like, you'll be safe for the next 15 minutes if you start this shit and I will not. Right. Right. Interesting. And now it's time to thank the companies who are allow you to listen to we can do hard things for free. I'm not a dog person. That is a thing I would actually say out loud with my own mouth. I'm not a dog person. When the kids were 8 and 10 and we had the opportunity to adopt a foster dog, it felt to me like grocery shopping or washing jerseys, just part of what a family requires and something you do to take one for the team. Then, we adopted Seamus. And I would like to ask all the tiny baby puppies everywhere around the world, forgive me for my ignorance. Because I am now thoroughly convinced that people who are not dog

people are just people who have not had a dog. And maybe people who most need a dog. Because I can't even believe that I almost went my whole life not knowing this particular kind of love. Shamus is obsessed with me and I am obsessed with him. I think that maybe dog love is what people are talking about when they call love unconditional. I do absolutely nothing and he is absolutely delighted with me, which is why I would do nearly anything to delight him, which is why I got so excited about partnering with Mave. Mave is the only fresh, ready to serve dog food made with real human-grade ingredients. We're talking beef, kale, sweet potato, blueberries, not palettes, not fillers, actual food. And you don't even have to thought. You just scoop it up, serve it,

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I can't recommend maven up. It's 100% human grade. It's convenient, no thawing necessary. It's delivered right to your door. And most importantly, it's real food that helps your dog feel as good as they make you feel. Go to meetmave.com and use code pod squad at checkout. I'm just fascinated by the whole conversation about like desire and agency too, because even when Glennon's talking about watching Moon on stage and being like, I don't know what it is,

but that and you're, it's like whether it's a freedom that I want or something that I'm a it's about desire, right? Not even necessarily desire for them, but desire for me. Like I am feeling a pull of that. And then to hear you talk, even about, all of these things seem like so rooted in an ability to identify your desire and then somehow to either have or not have the agency to make it so. Like even Glennon creating that life that she wants for herself is an active desire and an active agency. And so I've never really, I don't know what it means when you can't identify the desire or where that comes from.

Like a lot of people can't say, they will say, I don't know what I want. I don't even know what I want for dinner, much less what I want for my life or what I want for my relationship or my sexuality or whatever. Do you have any thoughts about like where, what that comes from? the ability to identify, like, I want that, either that person or that life. And, like, what doesn't happen for people who can't do that? Totally. I mean, that's really huge. I think thanks for pulling that out of what we're dancing around.

I think for me, I am so, like, touched by the grace of God that I was able to get to the point where, like, Muna as a project was started because when I look back, like, I was not a person who could identify what I want or a person who was in touch with my, like, gut instinct at all. And I think in a lot of ways, like, having Muna made me accountable, it's a big part of like what put me on my recovery journey. And, like, I want to, like, get into all that stuff, but I also am curious about how, I mean, maybe this is a conversation for, like, another time, but I'm still at the beginning of figuring out how to talk about recovery in, like, a public way and, like, a way that feels good. So I guess I'm just, like, asking higher powers to help me. I mean, for me, the recovery thing is sort of like everything else. It's like the desire conversation you're having because when you think about how do you find out what you want, I don't know how most people do that.

I truly am a person who has to learn the hard way. That's how my life's always been and will continue to be. For me, identifying desire is a lot like, you know, that story of whoever it was, some famous sculptor who said that all they do is they take a rock and then they cut out what isn't the sculpture, but the sculpture's already in the rock. All they're doing is chiseling away what's not the sculpture and then the sculpture. That's what desire is for me. I have to constantly try things and go, not that, not that, not that. I know the not that. What I am good at is not suffering through the not that for too long. Okay. I was going to say, did you used to feel like

guilty about when it was not that like and struggle with I think I'm still in that part a little bit where it's like if something isn't working I feel like is because I'm doing something wrong and I just have to like figure out how to make it work but I keep hearing this message over and over again that like being able to identify not that quickly and like accepting it is huge yeah I think that one of the hard things about for because i mean i've been in recovery for almost 10 years now and you 22 um one of the hardest parts about recovery for me at the beginning was it made like at first you you were like i can't trust myself because myself got me into this mess right and so the not that part of this conversation is like holding like loosely to

the not that of whatever choices you're making or you know the sculpture like it's like letting go of those parts that you just that aren't serving you that haven't worked and i don't know i just i i remember very vividly being like oh i can't trust myself i have to like turn myself over to a higher power or just like really like white knuckle it at first but eventually I drank 15 cups of coffee every single day because that was my not that attitude. You had to do whatever you had to do. And one person said to me long ago, whatever you have to do, just do it in order to not do that, in order to not drink alcohol. The sculpture at the center that you're recovering in recovery, like whatever recovery is recovering, an original plan.

Yeah, uncovering. Yeah. So I guess for me, I get into a situation every hour, every day, every situation. And I feel, you all get into a lot of situations. We do. You have a high amount of situations. Yes. High stakes, low clarity. And I feel a no. And I also feel yes. Like I feel, oh, this is warm. This feels right. This feels like an opening this person. this situation. And then there's a not that. And then I spend a lot of time and suffering, telling myself that it's just me that can't handle that thing. And other people can handle that thing. And so I should just more familiar ways. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. You know what's coming up for me with that situation is co-writing songs. And this has shifted

for me but when we first got signed um our label was encouraging us to do co-rights and i struggled with it so much and every like every possible sign in my body that like it wasn't the right thing for me at that time was happening like i would become so exhausted i was getting sick like all of these things that feel really on the nose. But I felt so bad about it. I was like, what's wrong with me that I can't show up and create in the way that these people want me to and the way that seemingly all these other people can? And I think what was going on is like I have a hard time.

I wonder how this is with you, Glennon, with like writing. I can't there's a lot of things that make it impossible for me to like actually think clearly and I can't like always actually think when I'm in a room with another person it's quite hard we talk about this all the time I'm like you are an individual sport athlete totally Like, I love people, but I, but art to me, I'm amazed when people can do it collectively. I'm amazed by Moena. I'm amazed that you are a person. I'm obsessed with the idea of how do we find community and work and life where we can be held and free, like held and free, held and free.

And it feels like you're doing that. Like you have found a way to be so respectful and gorgeous with your art with Moona. and then also carve out. I mean, what a relief. Like, the album is our family's heart. Yeah, your solo album. It is so, I will, it is every single theme of my life that is in my heart and mind is one of those songs. It is what a relief.

It was such a fucking relief. That really means the world and it makes me feel like I'm doing something right. And that was its own thing of like, I. started getting a feeling of like I these songs like are special to me like I know they're not right for Muna but they mean something to me and deciding like this is what I want it might not make sense to other people it might not actually be a smart business decision because now it's been like four years and Muna hasn't put out a new album but I'm like this is what I had to do and like trusting that that's the step you have to take like to lead you to wherever you're

going to be next you know and like it really did have a pretty like divine purpose in my life in terms of like reconnecting me to why I fell in love with music and songwriting and and reconnecting me to this like really like experimental part of myself we often talk about Muna as a marriage because we were like we're contractually like bound to each other and we like create the like and we make these things together and I think y'all maybe know this like Naomi and I dated in college. Naomi was like my first queer relationship and and we broke up like a month after we got signed and then we went to couples therapy after we broke up and the and the only way that we can because that's when you really have to make it work and that and when the only way

we could explain it to the therapist we were like we're a divorced couple that has a child yes you're co-parenting that we're co-parenting um and i think like a lesson that i've learned in muna is like we all have to like risk um you know we have to take the risk of like we have to take the risk of like leaving and growing individually and pursuing the thing that feels important and right for us and like changing so that the relationship can stay alive. The one thing that hasn't changed is that like Naomi and Joe are like my two favorite musicians and creators and like I respect their vision and opinion so much. I think that's what makes a band

is like respecting somebody's vision and opinion and also not having like a toxic environment where you can't express your opinion, you know? But yeah, I think that that was like, that was a huge win for me in terms of like having a desire that I was afraid of and not, and then not letting that stop me. Was it scary to tell them that you needed to go off on your own?

I mean, I'm thinking of other musicians that we know that have done this. How was that for you guys? How are those conversations? I'm just thinking of every single person who's in a family or in a friendship or in who are in these beautiful tiny communities but also feel the yearning for individuality but are scared to do that because they're scared of hurting feelings. Like how does that process go? it was really like low and slow when we we were working on our third album and I already had like

most of these songs together and the first thing I asked was like can I take a week and go into the studio like with a group of people and just record these songs like I was like kind of this experimental project like I didn't really know what I was going to I was thinking like I'll put it up on band camp or something like i kind of have this like okay katy okay i have this like like pathological attachment to like starting oh i think it maybe has to do with like like under earning type of vibe where it's like i want to i i i want to like undervalue things so that i don't so that it's less vulnerable. Totally.

Yes. We could get into that. Oh, I get that, Katie. Oh, that's, yeah. I'm not, it's like, listen, I'm not even trying. I'm just like, I'm not even after time. No, I just, I'm like, I just spent like three days on it and like, so there's no way it could even be good.

Yeah. You know. Under promise over deliver. Oh, that was surprising. Look how well it did because our expectations were none. Exactly. So I think like I, it's funny actually. Like, I guess maybe I didn't really know.

that it was gonna be something that like snowballed and I didn't I wasn't necessarily being honest with myself about how much I cared about it but I like recorded this this batch of songs again we were working on the third album and I showed it to Phoebe who had just signed us signed Muna and she was like these are good I want to put this out like as a solo record for you but I want you to go back in the studio with my producer Tony Berg and like work on this like work on it like spend more than three days Katie it's worth it yeah and and I think it was a few like I felt a few different things because first of all like the the early version I did was with my friends and it they're

really is something really special about like those versions of those songs i should send them to y'all it's like there's something really there's something really special about it just being like a group of people like throwing something together um and like everyone who worked on the first version of the project i'm like so grateful to um but then i had to contend with like okay am i it was a different conversation then it was like okay i i think i actually want to put this out on a label and like i want to work on it um like as an album that i'm going to put out um in a real way like with an album campaign and everything that became a different conversation and we decided that i would wait until the moon album came out um

And, you know, I do have to say that, like, I think if it had been one of them that had done it, I think I would have had a harder time than, like, they are such, like, understanding and supportive friends. And they were, like, pretty much immediately able to, like, put their egos aside. and let me do what I had to do. So, and I can't say I would have been able to do the same thing. I think I would have maybe required some ban therapy sessions. Yeah. I mean, it's all, co-parenting is all good until the other period decides to pursue a new partner. Like, right.

Things get freaking complicated, but. Yeah, definitely. So beautiful. Cool. Can we show you? Okay, so we did this tour. We actually did it for all the network of immigration orgs in the country. And we started every single night with our daughter singing the baton. Okay, so can we just, it's just a minute. I just want you to watch it. The song is on repeat in our house all the time, and it means a lot to. my family just kind of about like healing and generational trauma just some light stuff close out the evening um so this is the baton it's by katie gavin know i would tell my daughter she must be her or mother because i can only take her as far as i can go

and all that very same day she'd join kind of relay i'd pass her the baton and i'd say you'd better run because this thing has been going from many generations but there is so much healing that still needs to be done today I have no daughter I only have my mother and I don't know my mother taught me everything she knows and I don't want to leave her but she is drawing near her she's coming around the corner I can hear and go go on girl Time the head. Hacks. Oh. Oh, Tishie.

Oh, Tishie. Man, she can really. Man, she can really do it. can really do it. She can really do it. Are you crying, Katie? Oh, good. Maybe.

Oh, my gosh. So was Glennon. And, like, I was jamming last night to that song because we just finalized that clip. And I just, I cannot tell you, there was, there has been a point that I was playing it so often that my family is like, okay, maybe there should be a different song. So then we played inconsolable. Yeah. Maybe there should be a different song. No, it's really kind of diabolical to make me watch a clip of Tish performing it, like, for, like, with you there.

Like, I think that's really too much. I think. And then there was a night that my mom was in the audience. Yeah. So Tish is singing to my mom. We're there. And then we all poofed into dust. Yeah.

No, we're doing violence to people. I had a few shows where I had different family members when I did the Hollywood Forever Cemetery show or it wasn't at the cemetery, it was at the Masonic Lodge but my mom sang it and she learned the harmony and it was the cutest thing and also my older sister is pregnant And so she was there like the last time

I think it was like Red Rocks which was one of the last shows on the Lucy Dacus tour that I did and like singing to my pregnant sister. It's like it's really crazy. It's really crazy when you're actually like in the presence of multiple generations of women. It just makes me be like, I love my mom.

Kitty, how did that start? Like I have post, I have, I have retroactive stress that there's a realm in which you didn't follow your desire and you got too scared, do it, and then you didn't make this song. And I just want everybody, this is not just about Katie. This is about the little kernel in your body that thinks that you have a desire to put something that's inside your body, outside your body, and should you be brave enough to do it and just look like that somehow that's selfish because like I if you thought this doing individual

was selfish like you should know that my I wouldn't understand my life it's so true so what started that kernel and also like the layers of it where the Irish music and like the choice of the Irish sound being part of like the cultural baton of your life and just just say anything about that song well first of all I don't want to forget that I am really curious about if you have any experiences with with writing and creating where like after your question just kind of made me think about times where I've written something and then I get scared about alternate universes where I, like, lived the day a different way and, like, the thing didn't get created. I wonder if that happens to you.

Oh, all the time. And then I have a million things that I've written that I don't put out because I'm already scared of the alternate reality of me putting that out. And what would happen, what will happen to that world? Oh, yeah, absolutely. But I think that the beginning of the baton came with, like, that metaphor of a relay race. I was in Nashville, again, like on a journey of trying to co-write. And this was one of the first times that I actually had a successful co-writing session.

I think like people in Nashville are a little slower and calmer. And like that was helping me. But I was also like just meeting a lot of like cool young women and my friend Maddie Diaz had like had like a full moon ceremony so I was just like I was just vibing and um I remember driving and this the metaphor of the relay race like kind of crystallized for me and I remember feeling like um I think there I think I had I had heard somebody say at one point that like you have to find the metaphors for you that you that you can use as like oars like you have to find the metaphors that are helpful you know like that

will move you forward on your journey and you know there's so many ways to talk about um like where we fall short in terms of like loving each other um and i think this image of like maybe we're not actually like falling short generationally but we're like fulfilling the part that was like meant for us to fulfill and and also we're going as far as we can you know like that's just like we're doing all we can do is like what what was meant for us to do and and seeing that so clearly you know I was also I think like in my late 20s like I was maybe 29 when I wrote this song. So I think getting to the place of like really understanding, not really understanding. Let's be honest. I'm not a mom. You also won't really understand

if you're ever afraid. Don't worry. That's really that's the bad news. Great. The songwriting is so careful though. It's so specific and beautiful. Like that we talk about the line of I know that my mother taught me everything she knows. That is not, that is a way of saying. What a gift. We don't, we also, we, there is so much focus on what they didn't do and what the bad stuff is and what they couldn't get their shit together to clear out and what they, and I live in that world often.

But that line is so wise and generous and true. Like one of the times the kids said, my mom is always being the best mom she can, be and I was like that's sweet like she didn't say she's the best mom well yeah there is a little bit of it like when I when I was going to show my mom I was kind of like I wonder if she's going to hate this song like interesting because I think it takes like I mean like there's so much emotion in it like there's definitely a sadness there it's like we want to be um like more than we are for each other you know like there's always going to be that straining um but i think you know i'm really lucky to have a mom with whom i've had a lot of conversations about like um like i remember

at one point like we'll see if she's cool with me sharing this story but like i remember when when i was in early recovery i was probably being um like a snob about it and I was like, I actually figured out that there's like actually a way to live that like we should be doing. Oh, God, Katie, newly sober and crossfits and vegans. Vegan. No. Newly sober. Evangelical.

No, it's really bad. Yeah. And I think she was like, you think you're like so much better than me. And it's annoying. And I think I, we had some conversation that kind of was like, you did the same thing to your mom when you were my age. like my mom is really fiercely independent and after college she like went to the philippines and like uh did work that her mom didn't want her to do because she was like that's like not safe and my mom was just like this is what i'm going to do this is what's right for me and i'm like i'm

i'm i'm separating myself from you right now but it's because i am the same as you you know what i mean I'm like, it's because I'm independent like you, you know? Katie, every time my kids walk around with their little notebooks and I know they're writing shit about me. Right. I'm like, I want you to know that I gave you the match that you're using to light me up. Yeah, and like how funny is that? It's so funny. It's very funny.

Great irony. It is. But yeah, I think it was also. definitely from a point of like I'm sure y'all went through this in recovery and doing the steps of like just seeing things like you know like zooming out and being like oh like my grandma was dealing with a lot you know and seeing how that affects like it's not just like my mom is also a daughter yes that's so crazy and now it's time for our ads As you may have noticed over the last 20 years, I never know what to do with my hair.

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What are you thinking about it? What am I recovering from? Or I don't even know. Just what do you want to talk about when it comes to recovery? I think I'm, first of all, I think I'm like ready to begin again in a different area which life has a way of showing you like the blind spots um recovery is a slippery slope totally totally but i also feel like um actually taking it back to this um Amanda your question about like getting in touch with our desire in in I came into the rooms

when I was 24 and like getting sober like that first year, I was really pretty low functioning. I had so much anxiety that I couldn't drive a car. So I sold my car. I moved into a house with my best childhood friend who actually is obsessed with this podcast. So if you're listening, Becca, I love you, Becca! We love you, Becca! We love you! She's going to die. And I moved into a house with her because I kind of needed, like, not necessarily supervision, but I needed, like, co-regulation and accountability. And I, my life was really small. And I remember, like, feeling really, like, the progress was on, like, such a, a small level I felt like my life had like shrunk down to a little nucleus right and I think at that time I was like this takes so long it takes too long and I'm not seeing like the the results that I want I was really impatient with like what was possible and I think now it's like so I've so now it's like been eight years and I think I overestimated like what would change in my life

in like the first year of getting sober and I really underestimated like what can change in eight years like I think that it's it feels really crazy to witness like in my life the actual laws of like the abundance of nature man and it's like if you plant a seed and you can wait like it's crazy what can happen you know um and if you know i'm sure you all understand this it's like there's things that really change and there's things that really don't change like one of my um biggest addictions is like people and like if there's shiny people then i can like get lost in fantasy and kind of like my life again like internally it becomes really small just around like one person and so that's a little bit scary because sometimes i am just walking

around and going about my life not trying to get high you know and all the sudden it it will happen to me, you know. Did you just say, just stop for a second. I've never heard addiction describe that way before, but it's a really important way of when your internal life gets very small around something else. Is that what you said? Is it like you fill up with that thing as opposed to yourself suddenly? Yeah.

My sponsor calls it the treadmill in the cosmos. Like it's like we have this like entire universe around us of things that can make us feel like a huge array of feelings and we put ourselves on a treadmill and the numbers on the treadmill tell us if we're good or bad you know it's like or like a text back is going to tell you if you're good or bad it's like I need to make things like small and binary you know yeah I do know I do know mine's an actual treadmill but that's beside I'm I'm actually wondering if mine might be an actual treadmill as well. My partner pointed out to me recently, like, you know, there's a lot of different things

going on with, like, different people in my world that I'm close to. And, like, I have a big impulse to, like, I can be really codependent and, like, want to step in and save people. And my partner pointed out, sorry, someone's throwing something in a dumpster. my partner pointed out that I've been like technically working out twice a day like most days of the week because I'm like going to the gym and then I'm taking dance classes and I was telling myself like oh it's because like I'm just prepping for this next album cycle and like you know I can like justify things in an interesting way but then I was just like oh yeah I know that oh so wow Yeah. But how beautiful is it when you have like people in your life who can like point gently? She's a gentle pointer. She really does it every day. Do you think that there's something inside of us that when we chip away everything knows what we want, what to do, how to recover, how to be in the cosmos? I'm asking you about baby lizards right now.

Okay? Totally. Wait, tell people what baby, what, because I don't think people are going to know. Baby lizards, it's a, it's a, there's a line and inconsolable, a song on Katie Gavin's solo album. It's called, but I've seen baby lizards running in the river when they open their eyes, even though no one taught them how or why. And the context is.

I might have just turned this into our own story, so if this context is extra. This will be fun. But it's like when the context of this idea that Katie's suggesting that we have something in us that knows how to find our way home and back to each other just like lizards, no one teaches them, but they know how to get to the river to get what they need to survive. The context is a relationship where they are shutting down to each other because they feel. like internally they're too much of a mess to show themselves to each other. So there's a line in it that says you run into the house trying to be your own savior. That's all I do. But the idea is that if we just keep feeling our way through this, if the two of us in this relationship just keep returning to the part of ourselves like baby lizards that know instinctively how to move next,

we get out of our heads and into our bodies, we can find our way back to each other. my understanding of this song and also these two people may have been from families who didn't like hug or love or find their way to each other so much so they didn't learn it yeah i think we're all irish here katie just so you know we are you really oh irish that's so cute yes where in ireland you know where your family's from my sister knows all of this where i'm in yeah we're mostly like connemara galway area cute galway girls yeah well i think what i'm gathering is that um you understand this song way better than i do i'm like oh that's so cool that that's what the song is about um yeah so i'm like can you just tell me how to be baby lizard i think

it's also helpful to like in my life um one of the biggest like signs of progress that i will still celebrate like a little kid is um let's say i'm having uh like a spiky moment with my partner where like i'm feeling upset spiky i'm going to use that when you say chippy that you're getting spiky yeah spiky sometimes i have days that are crunchy where i'm just like why is it so crunchy today um uh but i'm like you know but i'm upset a huge win for me these days is actually being able to trace back like oh they said this thing and it was a little thing but like that made me feel like they're not on my side or that made me feel like they don't listen to me or you know and like to actually be able to like find a thread in me and like and usually

I don't I I in the past I ignore those threads because again like I feel like it's wrong of me to like have these feelings or like it's just something I should deal with on my own whatever like but acknowledging um this little part of me that like needs like I'm starting to understand that partnerships is really the space where we can ideally like feel safe to be like the littlest versions of ourselves you know um and I'm so lucky to have like to have a partner now where they can really meet that version of me and like treat her tenderly and they're like proud of me and will high five me you know if I like realize oh this is like this is what hurt my feelings you know and a lot of times I'm doing it I have to do it in a voice like I do too I do a baby voice and it annoys my baby

voice annoys me because that's like a thing I'm not trying to be no but like if that's what gets it out of your mouth, then honey, that's what it's got to be. This is like 100% what I'm working on in therapy right now, which is this like 90% of my relationship happens in my head. Because when something happens, I'm constantly doing the negotiation of like, well, this visceral reaction is incommensurate with this particular thing. And so this is therefore unreasonable and something I need to mediate in myself before I present it because that's just crazy town, right? But this, my therapist keeps trying to tell me the same thing that like if, if an emotion happens, like, first of all, this is wild, but an actual emotion takes maximum of 90 seconds to

flow through you. Like if you will actually sit through the cycle of an emotion, it's 90 seconds, which means when it's taking you, for example, 72 hours, that is not actually a cycle that is like you're spinning. And the reason you're spinning is because like that thing when you're saying like that hit me in that way that doesn't seem like responsive to what actually happened because it is hitting the baby lizard. Like that thing is an old thing of yours. So you're right that it isn't commensurate with this situation and it's so real. And it's going to continue to be real until you can bring it out and be like, this is that little thing. Yeah. So it's like that's necessary to avoid it continuing to happen, which is just wild to me. I always thought this relationship is for this relationship, not like all of my stuff is here and this

relationship is a tool to get to all of that stuff. Oh, God, that's so true. We call it the softest self. You said the littlest self, and we call it the softest self, like the person that you feel safe with being your softest self. And it would make sense when the softest self feels threatened that you would put up a spiky self, right? It's like when I find myself being spiky, it's because I have just felt like somebody

was going to see the softest. But sometimes, like, I don't even realize that that's what I'm doing. And so being able to, yeah, there's something interesting in this conversation about, like, time. And, like, Amanda, what you're saying about, like, an emotion, like, flowing through us. Like, just, like, the idea that when we get these signals, like, from our body, whether it's like something hit the baby lizard or like something is like not right for us, it's not something that we want, you know?

It's like working on like the ability to just be listening to like that. And there's something for me about the more I like clear away shame, the like faster and, freer i am to express like this is the message i just got and like i don't it doesn't have to be like good or bad or right or wrong but like this is the message i just got um yeah really interesting god which is full circle to desire right because like if you are getting a message

and then you have shame on top of that message like shame is the ultimate desire killer like you're not going able to be free in that way that made me I immediately just went to being gay I'm like shame as ultimate desire killer I'm like I don't

I'm like it didn't fully work for me your will is strong Katie I'm like it actually can be kind of hot if you're like messed up about it yeah if you're a doll thing there's a whole thing there's a whole other

conversation it's a whole different thing yeah oh my god what do you when you think about your baton like what are you desperately committed to carrying on from your lineage and what are you thinking about letting go um in my lineage again like the the independence of spirit of like the women in my family I think is so beautiful. Elsewhere in my ancestry, like my dad has an incredibly, like, tender heart. And he's a lawyer, but he really has, like, the heart of a poet. And I really honor that, like, in him, like, he's a really amazing.

listener and he's the person that I like know I can um he's he's someone I know I can go to like if I need like kind of like a non-judgmental you know safe space and I think I I really hope to like carry that on I think there's so much interesting stuff so my kind of like political home in L.A. is a organization called Resource Generation. And I feel like this could be like, you know, I'll try not to get into a whole different world here, but... No, please do. We want, we're going to ask you anyway about what you wanted to, please do. Okay. Well, resource generation is a group for people that have like some kind of inherited. wealth who are interested in like redistribution um and it has been such a fascinating like process and

home for political education to think about um i was raised it in the north shore of chicago which is like a very um white wealthy bubble and i really do believe that um there is, like, a very strong, like, white supremacist culture that has certain characteristics that I really, like, took in when I was younger. There's certain things like being, like, averse to conflict, like, privile, like, privileging, like, quantitative signs of success over, like, a physical feeling in your body, you know, like, and I think also I still struggle with, like, you know, growing up in a, in a bubble like that, there's a really, like, narrow idea of success and, and, like, and, like,

like valuable, like, people. Yep. And I think I had to do a lot of, like, unlearning to, to understand, like, it's okay if that's not what success looks like for me, and that's not the kind of, like, life that I want to live. And that doesn't mean that I'm not grateful for everything that my parents have, like, given me.

But, yeah, I think that there's a lot of, like, I am really interested in like privileging, like, having a rich community over having like endless resources so that I don't need community. You know? Yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about. And that's exactly. If you could, it is, we have our, this is the conversations that we're having at our dinner tables constantly. And I just know that these, this is the answer. I just know that this is the answer because I was telling Abby recently, it's like we're just railing against, you know,

hoarding, basically hoarding and greed and more and the Western idea of just like conquering and more and just never sitting, never stopping, everything being a conquest and it's like colonialism even in your life and your, you're, yes, right? Yeah. It's like, I don't know if you've read the Naomi Klein's doppelganger. Yes, so good. So good. amazing she's amazing she really is she's she's kind of the one um but i feel like she connected a

dot for me with like this hoarding and this kind of like endless um like defensiveness and like um uh and the other side of that being like that there is a there's an existence of this like shadow land where like the resources that we're hoarding are not present in that place because we're hoarding them and they're like this kind of mindset globally of like you're either just this replication of kind of the dynamic of like Israel and Palestine yes that's all it is that's why no one wants us to talk about that because it's just a microcosm of the way we've agreed to run the entire planet and if we start to actually see that we will see all of it yeah and that it's like connected to there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a violence in the mentality of like

i need to uh have as much as i can possibly have um maybe you're not like directly uh starving people or killing people maybe you are some people are um but yeah I think a lot of us, and I think there's something that is like really, it's been tender to talk about it with my family because like, like, I think it's scary when you first are learning. If you didn't grow up in community in like an intimate way of like relying on each other deeply, it's hard to learn that you don't need to always have more than enough if you can ask other people for help, you know? Yeah.

But it's like, who wants to do that? We haven't learned to depend on each other because individualism has taught us you get what you need and you care for yourself by your own resources. And that has... But it's also very, you know, when I was talking to Abby about how I'm railing

against this greed and this hoarding, I think what we're being called to by your generation is to not only call that monster out like it's outside of us, but look at that monster inside of us, because while I'm railing at people for being greedy and hurting each other, I am just beginning to look at my own hoarding and my own individualism. And I also have seen, and we're having these conversations about generational wealth because of this, because of what you're identifying. But it also, Katie, I'm seeing, it feels like the concept of enough we just haven't been taught to care about or see any end to it. Like there's any enoughness. But what is really clear now is that the people who can't figure out what enough is.

even who have a lot, are refusing to say enough to what's going on in the world. There's a direct correlation between this idea that even our rich friends are so scared to speak out because why? Because you're going to lose your next opportunity, but you already have. Right. You have enough so you can put yourself on the line. Right. But if you don't know what enough is, you are not free.

I literally was almost about to break into Tracy Chapman. Oh, that's fine. Yes. Oh, that you would have. Sorry. But I feel like it's sort of like addiction or sort of like religion or sort of like this is this is a this is not just like a one degree turn north. This is a whole basis on which we have built lives and nation. and empires and generations and we are taught like this is how you keep the baby lizard safe

right the baby lizard doesn't have any allies or friends the baby lizard stays safe this way and so it's a and that's really hard to replace when you have no experience or evidence but just testimony that the other way will work. Like when people are in community and feel the safety of a community, they believe it. They know it. They know it's far more secure than made up paper. Yeah. I mean, hopefully now this is just a not this moment. Right. Right. I mean, it's not this. I know, but it's it really has been super confounding like to see people not be able to express outrage. But also in my life, I think a lot of, you know,

most of my friends that have platforms, like, are using their platforms. And I think that it's possible that I might live in a bubble where people are really speaking out and saying Free Palestine in a way that maybe you, y'all are having a different experience in your community we are having a different experience that's really hard um i have a friend who like was raised zionist and has gone through a really amazing transformation but it's also been painful um and i think um like i've i've looked to her a lot. This is Hannah Eindner. I've looked to her

a lot in terms of like talking to people because I know like she has a lot of conversations with people who don't agree with the way that she's speaking out and she's managed to maintain

like really this stance of like I will walk with you I will send you these books like I will be here for you um if you like come with me on this journey and like step across the threshold i know it's scary i know it's hard um i haven't had like as much experience with um yeah people that have been people that aren't speaking out i guess maybe that's partially because it's like moona you know we like Naomi and i'm part of the reason we were so close was because we were doing like

college activism you know and like we've just always that's been our um community but i will say that like i i've been on my own journey of like uh i think a big thing for me is using my phone like not just as a platform but as a way to like I there's like four or five families that I speak to on a semi-regular basis and just like connecting on a human to human level and being like what's up what's going on today where are you um you're talking about Palestinian families Palestinian families and it's not for me like I have had to um orient my life and my activism in a way that I know it's it's not like this is easy it's not like this is easy to like look at in a sustainable way and I found that for me having a few

people that are going to message me and say like how are you doing Katie like this is what's going on with me today like that keeps my eyes like on this genocide in a way that's sustainable and also like I have there's other things for me like going to direct actions I don't do it necessarily because it's like because I think it's the most effective way to organize but I do it because I'm the kind of like ADHD person where I get such a buzz from being in the streets with other. people who like believe the same thing that I do that actually keeps me going yeah i i'm a part of resource generation because then i'm accountable to like be with people every other monday

who like are like amazing activists who push me you know like i have to set up my life in ways that make me less likely to, like, slip away from my values, you know? Yeah, I do. It's like recovery. It's like recovery. So good. It's another baton situation. We'll just, we need to let you go.

You have so many things to do. Yeah, my gosh. So we're going to stop. But it does feel all tied to that. Like you're looking so hard at your little family and what you want to bring and take. And then you're looking so hard at your wider family and what the generating. has told you about how to live and taking the baton and being like, I've got this. I'll take a little bit and reimagine my own way.

It's beautiful, Katie. You are so special and we adore you deeply and we believe in you and everyone we love believes in you and I love you. I'll see you and just, you know, when you need anything, just. Just text your aunties. I'm just dying to hang out. Let's hang out. I'm frankly dying to hang out.

Let's hang out. I'm so grateful. I can't believe you had me on this podcast. Are you kidding me? This has been my favorite podcast we've ever done. No, I can't believe it. I'm so grateful. Thank you for everything that you all do.

Thank you for being such leaders. Thank you, Glennon, for being the femme dom that we're in the world. I might curl my hair. Be the femme. done you need in the world. You can curl my hair, but I will fuck you up. That's our tagline. And also, you guys, Pod Squad, we're going to put all of, you're going to, this is, I know that this album is going to be, everyone's just constant. So we'll put the album link and all the things people do. What a relief. Go get it. Katie got it. We love you, Katie. Go, go, go, go. Love

you. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human. Forever Dog is our production. partner, and you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things show on TikTok.