We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Kelly Clarkson: Red Flags, Divorce & Starting Over

Episode Date: June 13, 2023

In this deeply personal conversation, Kelly Clarkson – beloved artist, truth teller, and goddamn cheetah – joins us to discuss:  How Untamed gave her the clarity and courage to divorce;  Why she stayed for as long as she did;  The lowest point of her life;  What broke her heart the most in her marriage;  How to recover yourself after slowly disappearing in a relationship;  Her incredible new album chemistry;  Embracing singleness; and  Why she’s a stronger parent today. About Kelly:  Kelly Clarkson is one of the most popular artists of this era with total worldwide sales of more than 25 million albums and 40 million singles. Her multi-Emmy Award-winning daytime talk show, “The Kelly Clarkson Show,” has been picked up for its 5th and 6th seasons. Additionally, she was the winning coach on seasons 14, 15, 17, and 21 of “The Voice” and returned as a coach for Season 23. Kelly is the recipient of three consecutive Daytime Emmy Awards for “The Kelly Clarkson Show,” three Grammy Awards, four American Music Awards, three MTV Video Music Awards, one MTV Movie & TV Award, two Academy of Country Music Awards, two American Country Awards and one Country Music Association Award.  Kelly will release her highly anticipated tenth studio album, Chemistry on June 23rd.  TW: @kellyclarkson IG: @kellyclarkson To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I walk through a fire I came out the other side. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. I have a very special place in my heart for women who artfully and relentlessly tell the truth about their lives. This one. This one is right. This one that we have with us today is as Chita-ish as a goddamn Cheetah gets.

You may have heard of her. Her name is Kelly Clarkson. Yep. Herd of her. Hi, Kelly. I've never heard of her. You've never heard of her. She's an up and chita necklace. I've never heard of her. I'm

I'm a chita necklace. I'm moving to New York. So all my jewelry's packed. I should have worn my my chita necklace for you. I made one. I can't believe that you have a chita necklace. No, you don't understand. I know we've talked about this a little bit on my show, but I cannot tell you the timing my nanny handing me that book. Me reading it, the fastest I've ever read a book, me getting to the part where it's like, would you want your child in this relationship and sobbing uncontrollably while they're both in my bed,

and I'm in my bathroom on the floor, like a scene, like it was a scene. And it just was, you know, things come at the right time because I was struggling and it just came at the right time. Like, and she's given me, you know, tons of like book ideas, like to read, we're all avid readers in our group. So, but I've never once been like that, because we love very different books, usually she likes, like, someone's died and they're looking for them.

She likes those kind of books. And I'm like, I don't want to death. I'm like, I'm good. Life is hard enough. I need something to help me not add more problems to my life. So your group, someone in a group gave it to a team. Oh my God.

Yeah, like my mom, my sister, there's Ava Trisha, Al. There's such a bunch of us that like, we like reading different things or listening to it. We're all very different, but somehow our crazy crew works. Even my mother, I was just my mother and sister in Montana, and she just started losing her over this toast. I was like, I'm gonna let her have the moment on the toast. And the toast like, Brad? Yes, because it kept burning, the toaster kept burning or toast.

And she was just wanted some toast and it just wasn't happening. And it was obviously more than the toast that was happening. It always is. Yeah, I was like, this is bigger than the toast. But anyway, it was just funny. But we're like that group that can also be like, so are you good? Or we should talk about it. I think we're all just to a certain age to where there's no bullshit.

So yeah, so it's nice, but we're all just to a certain age to where there's no bullshit. Yes. Yes. So it's nice, but we're all very different. So that's also very funny. Is it a gift of getting older is having relationships with us? Yes. No bullshit. Oh my God. Yes.

Okay. So take us back. So you because we've my sister and I listened to chemistry. We were in a hotel by our hotel album. The whole thing. I thought you only heard the three songs. No, I'm so happy right now. We were in a hotel by our hotel album. The whole thing. I thought you'd only heard the three songs. No, I'm so happy right now. I begged.

I begged her link. We got a secret link from some secret people. Existered and I sat in the hotel room. Blast it. Like we haven't done since maybe we were in seventh grade. Sissy. Oh my God, I love it. We were like looking at each other like weeping and then we were like seventh grade, Sissy. Oh my God, I love it. We were like looking at each other like weeping,

and then we were like, we're kept like stopping it during certain lyrics, and being like, oh my God, yeah, God. We were like going back, and then like, it was a journey telling us. It was a journey for us. It's a journey, right, though. It's a roller coaster.

It's funny that you listened to. I don't know if you listened to it straight through, but we did. We did. So we went back and forth about that, because I was like, well, maybe I just started at the beginning of the relationship and just kind of, you know, accordingly, like do each song.

But it didn't make sense, like sonically it was odd. So I was like, you know what? The whole thing was a roller coaster. It's fine if the sequencing is that. So, but I definitely wanted to start with, can I skip this part, which is maybe one of the saddest ones ever written? But that's how you feel.

When you go through something, I know we can do hard things. That's why we're here right now. But sometimes you don't wanna do it. That's right. You never do. You rarely do. You rarely rarely do.

Go right to the end where people are like, you're gonna be happy one day. Yeah, we call it trying to skip the crucifixion and go straight to the resurrection, which that is like, never the way it works. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't work, but I love that it wasn't in order because it feels like that too. Feelings don't, they're not clean and linear. The beginning, middle, end, and post of a relationship is like everything everywhere all at once, right? It's like you feel all, it's so beautiful. So there's no post.

There's no post. Really is there. There's just the new you. Yeah. Which is why it kind of ends with that's right. So the song with Sheila E that we got heard of before I'm on Chalice, so excited. That's kind of the like,

still I got a group back song. Yeah. Yes. That's the song where it's gotter group backs on. Yes. Yes. That's the song where it's just like, okay, I was like, it's all right. It's going to be good. And I liked ending with that and starting with on the floor crying. But it's, yeah, it's definitely a roller coaster. So take a sec to on the floor crying because everyone on earth knows the on the floor crying.

I used to say people say that God is everywhere, but I think that God is in the bathroom because of the moments of rock bottom. I've had on bathroom floors. That's like my whole trash. Yeah, that's me too. You just said it. My lowest point in life was actually after the show in Irvine

and years ago, like 2000, I don't know, five, some like this. I can't remember. In my lowest point, I've ever been at. And it was in a bathroom. And honestly, it's the one place you can escape from everyone. No one bothers you there, especially if you're like, even lying going, I gotta go to the bathroom, like for real, they really won't bother you.

Yeah. In those ones just like, the longer you're real on. The longer you're exactly. won't bother you. Yeah. Yeah. It was just like the longer you're alone. The longer you're exactly. The longer you're still bothering you. Yes. I know. I know. I think that's the place where you find where people tend to leave you alone.

So yeah, it was the one place at that that amphitheater. And that is true. I've never thought of that before, but that that was a moment for me. Why was that your lowest moment? So I had this thing, and since then, still been working on the same thing. Just loved to, you know, live a physical pattern. But, yeah, but anyway, so I was very sad.

I was having a very hard time with certain people in my life that personally in business, just everywhere everywhere it was kind of like, and it was my heyday for me. It was like the third tour we've done on that breakaway album. I was very tired. I'd had walking him on you twice. I was just beat. Nobody cared. They're just literally where pumped, not nobody, but no one that counted that made the schedule or did anything cared. And so I'm a total Southern girl and a very hard worker. And I've always been taught to like, I mean, even in sports, growing up, you know, you're like, now you can push yourself further than you think. I've always been that person. So I just pushed and

pushed and there were very unhealthy people around me like in their own lives, like very unhealthy. Everyone on the coattails, if I'm being blunt, was just draining me. And there was nowhere to go. Like, home wasn't great, business wasn't great, even on the road, like the only place to feel, at one point turn around and go, wow, the only place I actually feel safe or heard is when I'm on stage doing a show. That's a really big problem. You're like, you know, so, yeah. So that's a problem. So that was the lowest I've ever, I've ever been.

Cut to years of still thinking I could, you know, there's like this song I have called sober, it's pick the weasin' keep the flowers. And so basically I started, you know, get it tending my garden and trying to like, get people out that aren't bad people just not good for me. But I have this thing where, which is obviously I've done enough therapy at this point, to

realize where things just kind of come back up, especially if you haven't addressed them, or if you think you've gotten through it, you have it. And so I just, yeah, for years, even until this relationship that's on this record, like there's still things that are just these cyclical patterns. It's like, when am I gonna learn? Like when is it gonna be the time you actually learn and not just learn of it, but learn of it and actually change it? Yeah.

It's very hard to change those patterns, especially that are built in from childhood, you know? So, yeah, it cuts to a lot of bathroom floor. That's a lot of bathroom floor. So you read this part of Untamed. I think it's the one that you're referring to where I had this moment where I realized I was staying in the relationship for my little girl, but would I want this relationship for my little girl?

And if not, then why am I staying in this and calling it good mothering when really it's bad mothering? Which is kind of like tricky because even I've had friends come to me after three now. This is like three years this month or maybe to like this week or last week, three years like since our separation, right? And I read that and I know that to be true for me. Like I'm even watching my mother in two different marriages. There's things you pick up on even as a kid that you're like, this isn't healthy, right? So like an environment to live in.

It was one of those things when I read it, I definitely was still on the not fence, but I just, I kept the tug of like loving someone so deeply and the tug of like really needing to love yourself as much or more. And it was like, I just don't know if I can do this while still trying to do this anymore. But then it's interesting because you think about your kids right and you're like, oh man, I wonder, how is this going to affect them? I remember how it affected me. And he has also been through divorce to his family. So I was like, oh, nobody wants that, right? So you try and you try and you try. But then you figure out, why don't I want them

growing up with this unhealthy? But I'm going to be honest with you. I've had people come to me that it going through divorce or going through really hard relationships with kids. It doesn't matter either way you go. Your kids still have a hard time. It doesn't hard relationships with kids, it doesn't matter either way you go. Your kids still, it's have a hard time. It doesn't matter if you stay, it doesn't matter if you go. It's still, I'm still having conversations three years later. Like my kids just came back for my ex and it's always like, you know,

anytime there's mention of like, maybe him being with somebody else or anytime, I mean, they are just really adamant about keeping that dream alive that we might still be together What like like and still like and we are never round each other so it's It doesn't matter either way both are hard so but when people say well, it was a better in the end I'm like, I don't know that it's better in the end either way is hard. I think it comes down to you It's like I don't know if I can keep holding up all of this.

Like, I don't, and that's what I feel like I'm having to do. And I'm a better mother, I can say that. Like after, I'm a far better mother. Because I think when you're honest with yourself, you're able to be honest with others. But sometimes you don't know that you're necessarily lying to yourself. Love is tricky.

It really convinces you that you're doing the right thing or this is what you should do. It's just a very hard thing when you love someone so deeply to separate that and to have the right answer, which I don't when my kids ask me sometimes. I'm like, I can't give you that whole story. This is your separate relationship with your father, you know, I'm saying this is mine, this is yours. Like it's and it drives my daughter who is far beyond all of us. I'm just like, oh my god, I'm not ready for this conversation. She's very inquisitive, she's very smart. She catches everything. I cannot leave a hint of sarcasm on the floor. I can't do anything. I have to be so on top of it. I like her.

I try to do the right kind of hard. Like, trying to decide between what's the right heart. What's the right heart? Is like one of the hardest things about parenting. And in general, even like this move, we're all moving to New York, like there's people that can come to go, in general, it's doing the hard thing,

like it's, which hard thing, you're both crappy. Yes, but I appreciate that about you so much because I think that people, it's like, they go the opposite fairy tale. We used to be taught, if you stay together, all happily ever after, and there's your redemption story. And then people went the other way. Like, now I broke it off because that was the right thing for me.

And now I have to make that the perfect happy ending. And neither are true. They're both extremely messy and they both have challenges and blessings with them and you just pick your heart. Yeah. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and I'm someone who likes fancy things.

But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner,

I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy, a new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. I want to ask you about the song Mine on your new album. It's one of the songs that have been released already.

Yeah. The song, like, gutted me because you wrote, I don't know why I stayed as long as I stayed. Yeah. And boy, do I get that? We I stayed as long as I stayed. Yeah. And boy, do I get that? We all do. Boy, do I get that? Why did you stay as long as you stayed?

But that's hindsight, right? So it's like when you're in it. And I think also our ego, like I remind, like my ego, I'm like, I can do this. I can handle so much. My ego is like, I can control my actions, I can control my reactions, I can do this and I can reach this person and I can get through

and it becomes a little bit of your ego, the kids in the way. And also, if I'm being completely honest, we don't wanna do what we saw done. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, I don't want my kids to be what we saw done. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm like, I don't want my kids to be those kids at school. Like, you know, because I grew up, and it's a little different. They grew up here.

It's a very progressive city and even New York that's progressive. And, but in the South, there were like two of us with divorce parents in our class. So it was very different. And even like, when you come down to like daddy daughter dances and you don't have anyone show up and like he lives far, there's been things that happen like, even in my kid's school and it's like, you have to think of all those things.

And I think you play it out differently in your head too, you try so hard, like I do not want to do that to her. I don't want to do that to him, like that you start never thinking about yourself. And that's honestly sometimes to be selfish for me. It was very important because I'm never, I'm rarely selfish. It's been beaten into me since childhood like to have a servant's heart. It's very hard for me to take that and go, I need this like. And then it's funny because if you're not like that, then it's almost like you're like

aggressive about it when you do. You're like, I need it. You have to be aggressive because you've, you've been letting it sit so long that you're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, like I need to aggressively tell you right now, this is not working. I don't know why we do that. Well, you got to hold your boundary and sometimes if it's especially if it's hard to create the boundaries to begin with, when you actually do one, you're like, I'm doing it.

Yeah, better listen to the line. This is the line. Yeah, I feel like. Yeah, no, I am better, I should say. I am far better at boundaries now, but we have this joke in our group because I'm around a lot of squirpios. And I feel like squirpios are very like just no bullshit.

Like this is what's happening, and this is what you just said, and that's actually what you meant. They see everything. I have friends in my sister's Scorpio 2. They just see right through it. And all I see is a sea of potential. Like, oh, oh, scary.

Like, scary. Just a sea of, oh, that's not what they meant. They probably meant this, or they probably, no, you don't know, maybe they're having a rough day, oh, that's not what they meant. They probably meant this or they probably, no, you don't know, maybe they're having a rough day and like maybe they didn't, normally that's not like probably what they did. I can't think of that. Like I am that person.

Yeah, you're painting those red flags green. You're just a paint no-one. And you believe in the opposite of the Dr. Maya Angelou quote. So it's like when people tell you who they are, do not believe them. Okay. I am literally the opposite, like my quote. When people show you who they are, it might not be who they are. It should be who they are today. Like every, and I think it boils down to, I have to believe and change. If I don't believe and change, I will just go so zero dark 30.

I will literally get so depressed. I will get so bogged down. And I just feel everything. So I have to believe that everyone's capable of change. Now most people in my group do not believe that those people can change. And that's fine. I don't collect red flags anymore. I definitely look at them and go,

this is a red flag, or I'm just doing the same thing, right? Okay, cool. Like you, I at least recognize it. But it's a very hard thing to give that up because it's also a beautiful thing to see. I know. Potential in people.

And it's also a beautiful thing to like not give up because you hear those stories too of like, you know, this person didn't give up on me. And then I finally fell love for the first time. I finally, because people that are like that, that just haven't seen light in a while, right? Like people that are like that, it's because they forgot what it looks like.

You know, I feel like they just forgot. I don't know. I'm always trying to come from. Where do you think that part of you comes from? I think honestly religion, like growing up. I think when you go to church at that young of an age, here's the thing, I love spirituality. I think religion can be confusing, but I love being spiritual and I had a really great

and it's actually, I'm tall enough. Okay. I'm going to take a drink. Okay. I learned in jail that you can't cry and drink water. The same thing. She did for my mug shot. Yeah, this week he learned and failed.

Yeah, this week person who was taking her mug shot was crying so hard that they told her takes some water. She said, I'm thirsty and they said, no. They don't eat. You have to stop crying. It does. It cuts it off. No, and why that just happened is, oh my god, I'm going to get this out.

It doesn't help that like it's Margaret Monthly right now. So that's awful for me. But anyway, I like, look, I'm sorry, TMI. No, I just, it happened the other day at the voice. I was leaving the voice and my mother still text me things. So like sometimes I thought it was referring to the show. Like, why did you turn for that person or why did you, like, not kind of thing or like, oh, that was a great performance, something like that.

And I looked and so his name was Dr. Frankie Rainey and he was a pastor. Oh my God, I'm trying to get this out. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, so he was one of those guys like, I didn't have a dad and he would have, he would like, cut out clippings and send them to me, mail them to me the letter like.

And just say like really kind things. Jesus, take the wheel. Okay, we're right here with you, we're with you. I've had pastors before and I've had people that weren't so great in a church environment, because it's not a perfect environment by any means, but I just mean for the most part, that's been kind of detrimental,

for the most part like people around me, not great things happened, but this one individual, he was just a really good man. So, so he represents it for you. He represents spirituality and religion and all of that to you. He represents what I love about it. Like this sounds horrible, but I've never come across one marriage that I want that.

Like I just really haven't. Like I'm gonna be honest with you in my life, like not like seeing people that I don't know, like on the regular. I mean, like in my life, I've never been like, that's what I want. That's what I want. It's so true.

Yeah, like the real, the real. Like, I'm like, I don't know, that seems real difficult and not fun and happy. It's kind of like that, like with him, I just so, he, he is what I felt like whenever I read those words in Sunday school or church or we're going through this term. That rained true for me. It was like he was such a great example of a man of a leader of all those things.

Anyway, so he passed away. Anyway, is that what your mom was telling you? And your mom was telling you that? Oh, thank you. Get it out. Get it out. And I can get it out. Yes, yes, that's what she text me. And I was just just really sad about that. But the I grew up like watching someone like that. I'm going to get it out. No, I get it. So for a person that hasn't experienced that kind of love to be shown that. Yeah. And then you change. Yeah. person that hasn't experienced that kind of love to be shown that.

And then you change. Yeah. And that change you change. Do you think you change as a result of that love? Oh my God, 100% and that's why I'm this crazy person that always does this. Like and this is why because I know it can happen. Do you wonder if, because I think sometimes we think, oh, I have all this hope and because I have this hope and I see the best in people, I'm fucking things up. But do you ever wonder if like you're doing things exactly the way that you're supposed

to? I think at some point, we all do what we think is is good and right and beneficial for everyone. And sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. I mean, I don't know. I feel like it's a beautiful thing to see that hope. But I also think if you heard the song Lighthouse on the album. Come and act it, come in and hop with Lighthouse. That would be fucking fun.

We heard it. Lightwood. Kelly, we heard it. We wrote it. Literally. But it's like, we were never, it was just we wrote it Kelly. We heard it like we wrote it. Like literally, but it's like we were never, it was just never gonna happen. It's like that was the song where I finally not gave up on it, but gave up on that part.

I gave up on, this is never going to happen. Like that is the song where I got off the fence and was like, okay, like I can't, I'm gonna drown. Yeah. This is not gonna be good, for anyone. How do you know? Because you have Christianity in your background. You have interested sports, you have Southern, you have a lot of cultures you come from

that revel in suffering. Because if you believe in hope and you're a Christian person and you have that in your head, I know from experience that hope is right after the suffering. So it's like, how do we know? I mean, I had a friend the other day that was at our house that was like, so you know, my therapist was talking about how suffering means stop.

So blah, blah, blah. And I was like, I'm sorry, what did you just say? Yeah. Suffering means stop. I thought suffering means I'm on the right track. You're almost there. You're almost there. Yeah, and it also means that it matters. Yeah.

For me, like, it also means that whatever, whatever impacts you that deeply matters. Yeah. So, so I, I don't know, I can't actually recall the exact situation, But I think there comes a point where you just feel so beat up, like, by life, by circumstance, by yourself, by others. You're like, I have nothing to give. And I think the point comes, I will say the main reason for that is, I can't even focus on us anymore, because we have these two little humans here that are counting on us. And like, I gotta get better like for them. Like we gotta make this better for them at least. If we're not gonna make it for us.

So I think probably kids, that probably did it. Yeah. And honestly, I'm not saying this because you're here. Honestly reading those words and on that bathroom floor, like that was one, that was all around the same time that I wrote Lighthouse that all of that, all those songs are written like three years ago. So that was one of the major things is reading that and going, oh my God, like I would never want my daughter or son in this relationship.

Like I, obviously I would hope for like way better for them. You know, in a far better kind of love. So then you think I want to love myself as much as clearly I love them. And it's so weird. Oh, that's literally what my therapist, I think one of the first things very much is like, if you, if you could just treat yourself how you treat others, like, you know, and I was like oh Okay hard truth I was like okay, well that's all for today So I'm just gonna swallow that pill

It's gonna be fine. I guess I don't ever know too if you're doing it right or wrong You just you feel like you're doing it, you know how you should be doing doing it. And I don't know. Maybe we're fucking it up. Like, I don't know, but you're trying not to. And that's all you can do is try with all the information you have. But I'm honest with my kids too. Not honest about anything with me and my ex, but honest about life. I think one of the best things my therapist told me was, because I kept trying to hide it. I would try and run and hide somewhere anytime I would just get overwhelmed and I needed to like cry. And she was like, why are you hiding?

Obviously don't do it all the time, but like it's normal for your kids to see you. That's right. First of all, care that this is happening and it's affecting you and it's not an easy thing. And I think that was a really good lesson for me to learn because obviously like look at my job, my vocation in general, like even I spent all of COVID going through hell privately, trying to make America smile

on my ranch and the snow while trying to record a song and six different languages and doing all these other things. It was hell, like that COVID was hell. And I just had to keep smiling and, you know, and I so I'm very good at that. So because I've trained myself, but it's not healthy. So it was a very good lesson, I think, to learn from, from my therapist was like, it's okay for them. Sometimes to see you struggling, that's life.

They need to see that. And I'm like, why don't we protect them from that? I don't know why we do that. But also PS, same with the world. You're like such a lighthouse that like it's also I think okay and you know TV shows are going to be TV shows but to know that other people are struggling makes people feel less alone. You know. And honestly you just nailed why I even released this album because I you know I'm like 41 I've got a whole other job right now I don't need to necessarily do that. First of all

I just did it for me. They're put together. That's how I get through things. It's almost like how I'm like, what am I thinking? That's how I figure it out or where I'm at is writing. And so I did it selfishly at first. And then the last few years have been really hard on a lot of people. I think that that's true. Like any kind of art, I think that's how you connect with people

and how you don't feel isolated. And so I think that rings how you connect with people and how you don't feel isolated. So I think that rings true, what you said. I was wondering, you were talking about lighthouse and there's a line in that where you say, it's such a shame when our wants and needs don't align. Oh, that was fine. And that's when the song I Hate Love comes into, because that's, it's literally that. You can love someone so much, but it doesn't change what's happening.

Like you know what I'm saying? It doesn't change the issues, it doesn't change the problems, it doesn't change what's happening. Like you know what I'm saying? It doesn't change the issues. It doesn't change the problems. It doesn't help. And anyway, it's not that powerful. Turns out. And it's funny, you know, you mentioned earlier when you were like, oh, because you're a lighthouse.

So Ego, like Ego, when I first started writing lighthouse, it is because people always, ever since I was a kid, they're like, oh, you're such a light. People have always said that to me, right? Well, when you hear that as a kid, you feel like you kind of, it's almost like you're duty. But when you're a kid, you're like,

oh, I got it. Yeah, you're like, okay, well, I got to be a light. I got to be funny. I got to be talkative. I got to make everyone happy. So then it's like your thing that you're kind of known for, like from early on, which is super unhealthy. But it's funny, because you learn about yourself too.

So in lighthouse, not only figuring out about my relationship, also me, it turns out I wasn't the lighthouse. Like I started writing that as like you almost got all my light, but it turns out we're both we're out here drowning. The lighthouse is up there. I don't know who that is, but what in me? And it's like your ego gets in check and you're like, okay, then you're like, I'm not even that. We're both out here in the dark,

just treading water. And we're not finding each other and we're not getting there. But it's interesting because then it makes you think about all those things that like you put on yourself once again, like from childhood, that you don't even, you didn't even realize you did, you know? Yes, I wanna ask about that light because I was married before and I resonate so deeply with when you say in Lighthouse, how you almost lost your light. And it was so slow and so imperceptible that I didn't even realize it at the time.

Like I just kind of folded myself into him and I thought that I was happy and I didn't even know till I was out of it. How truly sick I was in it. Yep. I mean, you didn't even know like even all the things that you accepted as that's normal. Yes. Are incredibly unhealthy and abusive, like almost, you know, like it's like, without anyone knowing or whatever, people just living their lives, how they live them, how they've acted their whole life.

You don't even recognize it. And then you get out. And I remember we were at the photo shoot for chemistry. Even being at that photo shoot, it was the first time, like everybody, even my whole team that's known me pre-him after him, like all that, or like, oh my God, there you are. I didn't even realize it. And then all of a sudden, I was like, oh my God,

I'm having like fun. This is like so much fun. Like the photographer, Brian Bones, this is incredible. And he really got the message of the album and artistically kind of wrapped that in visually. Even like, my- I was wearing, how I looked, how I laughed, the rock and roll side of me, all of that, everything was so different, and I didn't even realize it until after that you had not dumped yourself down, but like you had,

but like you had, like belittled who you are to make sure everybody else felt secure or fine. Or whatever. You dimmed your light. Like you put you like actually dimmed your light. But I love how you said that. So, because in the song, I was on, it's funny you just said that. Because I was in the song, I was like,

I don't know if I wanna give that power, that control away, like wording is so important. But I did feel that at the time, it was like you almost took on my light or I almost lost on my light kind of thing, but it's like, I turned it into like, you're right. It's like, I allowed that to happen. Like, so for people,

because by no means am I a victim in that, you allow someone to do that. You maybe don't notice you're doing it. And like you said, it's imperceptible. It's gradual. And you don't, you don't even realize what's happening because it happened so gradually. But I like that you said like that, that is the thing you, you choose to dim it. You choose and it's like, and I just, I don't know, I think in life, it's like if I'm not around people like friends, family, lover, whatever, like, that are okay with the amount of light I have, like then that's, that's, then are okay with the amount of lie that I have.

Like, then that's, we're into something to be together. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's okay. But like, to dull yourself, so you feel like somebody else could shine or so you feel like you're not in the way or you're not whatever the situation is. Like, it's not a, that's not a healthy way to live, you know?

Yeah, or sure. And it's not a healthy example to live, you know? Yeah, or sure. And it's not a healthy example for your child to look at you. Yeah, I see that. Yeah, it's like, we're teaching them what love is, right? So if you teach them that love is quieting yourself so that you can be with, because love should actually be the emergence of you. Right.

Like, you should be more yourself in love than at any other time. And when we show them that it's the opposite, that's kind of a experience to that. You've never experienced that. I've experienced love, like deep love, but working through a lot of stuff, I don't, I don't think I've ever experienced that. Yeah. Like I love that makes you more you. Is that what you're saying? You have an experience. I love that makes you more you is that what you're saying you have an experience I love that makes you more of you. Yeah, I don't think I have experienced that like I don't I don't think that other than I mean speaking with like a significant other right I've experienced that with like friendships or like family But like I I don't think I've ever experienced that and honestly I'm firework and I'm okay with that

But I'm very spontaneous and I'm very Communicative and I'm very like I'm just very like anything any I'm very spontaneous and I'm very communicative and I'm very like, I'm just very, like, anything, any other, any word that can go with very, I'm generally that, like I'm a walking empath, I'm just very, so, you know, I think it's gotta be somebody that can, you know, not, not, I don't wanna say the word handle that.

I mean, I think somebody that prizes that, that's the thing's that's cool. Or if not, like, I gotta be honest with you, these past three years, yes, they've been hard, but I was talking this the other day, the voice rap party. Obviously, I'm moving to New York, so I'm not doing the voice right now either. So it was like, Blake and I is like last thing for a minute. I never say never, but for me, it's probably good for right now. It's been nine seasons and we are at this rap party.

And we're all there. Everyone's hanging out, the crew, a lot of those crew are also Kelly Clarkson show crew too. So like, I just knew a ton of people there, right? I had some tequila and I danced for three hours straight practically. I had the time of my life because I just,

there's something freeing about tequila, having to worry, yes, but not having to worry about, oh, you know, if you're sick and you're feeling alone because I'm dancing and you're not dancing, are you feeling like it's always like feeling everybody else's feelings and sometimes it's nice just to be alone and just in your own world and experiencing your own bliss and your own, I literally danced with everyone. I don't think they're just sold there. I didn't dance with. I mean, I literally danced with everyone. I don't think they just sold their identity. I mean, I had so much fun, and it was just a freeing night

because I wasn't in a relationship before my ex. Like, I literally was like basically single until like 30. I was like in and out like a, like two, but like not really, it was like months and like, but I just mean like real relationship. It's really only him. So I'm pretty good at like rockin' life, like a loner, like, because I like going to different groups of people in different vacation. I'm just that person, but there's something just so freeing about it. I think that people

from the South, especially, well, leave one relationship, jump into another and I'm like, I can't do that. Like I can't, I'm not ready for it either. But like, yeah, I can't do that. When I'm picturing you at the party, I was just thinking it's because you didn't have somebody who feels weak stand and next to you. That line, that line, I was like, am I going to say this? Am I going to, I was like, I literally was like, am I going to, am I going to write that? And all the angels begin to say yes. That's what happened. So real. It's so real. It's very true and honest, and I feel like a lot of people can relate to that.

And I also feel like it wasn't supposed to be accusatory by any means. It's just that we're not, like this is not clicking. Me being able to be the best version of myself, or you being able to be the best version of you. Like this is not it. I don't know what it is, but this isn't it.

But it's a real phenomenon on these conversations together. We've had so many powerful discussions about really powerful women and the men in their orbit not being able to handle it. It just being, at best case, accommodating it or acclimating it, but certainly not as you said, pricing it or celebrating it. And that line that you had in me, I told you, I wanted you, but you needed me to need you. I'm sorry, ma'am.

Are you picking like every favorite line of mine in my album? I was like, wait, I was like, I was like, I was going to keep it line to my favorite line. That's what in my album. I was like, wait, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I'm sorry, man, wait, what? I was like, no, that's, yeah. That's, yep. I mean, but why do people need to be needed instead of,

instead of, Isn't it, be more important? Are more impressive and powerful that you would choose, I do not need you. I am choosing you because I want to be around you. I crave you. I don't need you, but there's a difference. And it's, well, it's control. There's a big player there.

And manipulation and all those things, those will have fun things come into play. That's the thing that I think that broke my heart the most was like, I just think that's the most beautiful thing to say, and to this person, I've never said that to anyone. Like, you're the only person I've ever even sent that to or felt that for. How powerful is that? But it's not enough.

It's not enough for people sometimes. And that's okay. That's not how they want to be loved. And that's not what they need in a relationship. And that's what it is. But yeah, that's one of my, I was like, I'm fitting that in one of these songs. Because I just, I feel like I said it until I was blue in the face.

I was just like, I don't understand. I just couldn't comprehend like how you couldn't see that as more beautiful and more, I don't know, just closer, because it's just a difference. Like if somebody's like financially dependent upon someone or somebody's emotionally dependent upon someone, any kind of dependency, I feel like takes away from what the core

loving relationship should be. Like, it's like, no, no, I don't need that. You for any of that. I'm just taking my love freely to you because I want you not because I need you to stick to you. I could freely be giving it to anyone and I'm freely giving it to you and only you. I think that's so beautiful.

A people don't agree. You don't agree. I think that's so beautiful. A people don't agree. You don't have to. So, like, I'm just gonna be honest, people don't agree. And I will say this, because I know you point out women, I do know, obviously, whoa, that too. But I know a couple dudes as well that have the same thing happens to men,

you know, if they can still their blue in the face, say, I have friends that are like, I can try and make them feel as confident in the relationship as say, I have friends that are like, I can try and make them feel as confident in the relationship as comfortable, I can try and try, and unless they seed in themselves, they're never gonna receive it from me. That happens to a lot of people. I think that people who depend on being needed instead of wanted, which I get to,

I think it might also come from a lack of any sort of self or self worth, because when you need to be because when you need to be you need to be transactional. So you're like, I know what I'm giving you. You know what you, but if you're just being chosen, that has to be like based on your humanity and not just what you can do for the other person. And that requires a hell of a lot of self worth.

And vulnerability that happened to me growing up. I tried to transactionally keep people in my life because I was too afraid to let whatever the relationship will be be. I was like trying to control it. Yeah. And you didn't want to lose it. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just thinking about the beautiful. There's so many beautiful things about you. And I, as I'm listening to you talk, I'm realizing why I love you so much, which is because you hold two things at once all the time. You're not like a this or this type person. You're like embracing all of it. And I'm thinking about how we're taught all of these things that are goodness

that are like hope, belief in people, potential, falling in love even. These are all the things that are held up and these are the most beautiful things in the world and they're what make life living and they're also what fuck us completely. Right? Like falling in love.

What the hell? When we were listening to your album, I think which song, that's kind of how, what's the song that we were listening to? Favorite kind of song. Favorite kind of song. I love it. Sister and I were talking about how we don't get wasted and go by cars.

All right. Some people do, I don't know. We're not like, OK, I have to make a huge decision. Let's go house hunting. So I'm going to get totally shit face before I go house it. But then we choose our life partners when we are in love, which is just basically being really high. What the hell with that?

I don't know, but I'll tell you why, because there's nothing like it, man. There is something like in other things, like I mean, if I'm like with motherhood and kids and that kind of that's a whole other thing. But with when it comes to like just you your own world like significant others in that sense, like there's nothing like even the first time I met my ex, he passed by me and I felt altered. Like I felt like different. Like it's like, wait, what?

And I was like, I've never felt that before. I mean, I will take your clothes off with my teeth. Kind of. Like that kind of just carnal, I'm just like, where did that come from? And that kind of high, and even in the beginning, and it wasn't for years later, by the way. We didn't even like run into each other again

and like see it, but I wouldn't settle. Like that's the difference. Like you want you to feel something like you want you to know that exists. You're like, well, I'm not settling to not feel that again. And cause we deserve that. That's such a beautiful, you feel it in your whole body.

It's just a beautiful high that like, of course, like we gravitate towards that. And of course, we make stupid decisions when it comes to that because it feels so good. Then you know, it's like, why addicts are addicts, I assume as well. Well, I don't assume, I love sugar. So like, but it's like, we're all addicts for some reason.

That's right. It's something, but I just mean it feels good. And it makes you feel good. There's just nothing like it. There's nothing I have yet to find anything like that kind of high of like, you know, and then them calling you or your taxi in the beginning and like all that kind of stuff, it's just it's exciting. It feels like the high of clarity.

Like when it's the opposite, but I also see you're just hyper focused. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.'re hyper focused. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I took your lyrics.

That's so interesting. Then when you were talking about it, it's such a shame when our wants and needs don't align being like, I want to make this work, but it can't work. I and I took that as because I had the exact same the first time I locked eyes with my first husband. I was like well good night moon like yeah exactly and then a few years later it was a real kick in the short like it just just, it just was. So, yeah, but I got ready. I had a good morning sun, but I, I took that, I was like, oh, some of the things that I want undeniably

are not things that I need. Yeah. How do I learn to want what I need instead of to really want what I really don't need? I don't know, I think that's the effect of self-worth to though, right? Like, pricing yourself, even if it feels like, okay, back to sugar, like I love sugar,

but like it's not good for you. So, you know, you do all the things you're supposed to do, but I think you do initially, I mean, literally it's like coming off of a drug like when you stop doing that, right? So it's like, once you get through that, the one, the tug of war, and you get on the other side, you feel better, you just feel better,

you feel more clarity, you just feel more, I don't know, grounded, you feel less emotional, because that's the thing too, is like, in that kind of relationship, you want to be, you don't know, grounded. You feel less emotional, because that's the thing too, is like, in that kind of relationship you want to be, you don't need it. It's like, if there's always this tug of war happening of like, oh my God, I love you, but God, I hate you. You are just horrible.

Like, you know, our God, there's nobody I can picture myself being with, and then you go back and forth. And that's not healthy. That's just emotionally being just like, just go and I know all the time, there's no rest like in there. So it's the same thing, that's why I was making the metaphor, like with sugar, I feel like I could be like very emotional, like all the time and it's always it changes your body, right?

It's like not good for you, right? So it's like, but you finally get away from that and you realize how, okay, this actually feels better. Like, you know what I'm doing, that actually feels better for me. But I think it comes down to for me, like just pricing how you feel instead of how someone makes you feel. Because like that can be very confusing. Yeah.

Especially when it comes to not just love, but lust, you know. Yeah, and we're learning a lot about how that initial attraction, and this is fascinating me lately, that initial whoo, why do we do it for some people, not everybody wrong? Because I don't understand. A lot of people are now teaching us

that it's actually more tied to anxiety than love. Like, it's something that's activating inside of us it has to do with our original attachment. So I think in like 20 years, we're gonna start seeing that first initial rush as less of a sign that of a green go and more of like a hold on this could be a red flag. Like yeah, we don't if we get caught in the middle of an intersection and like cars aren't going woof we're not like oh I can't wait to get this feeling back. Yeah. You know because that's like

anxiety danger danger fire like there's part of initial lust and also is the problem that we just keep Marrying people like could we just have sex with them? Do you know what I mean like is I initially a attraction like do we maybe we just don't have to keep marrying everyone that we fall and that That's why I'm so glad you said because like people right after like I mean right after like even like. It was announced and it came out, it's like, oh, hey, I know someone. I'm like, are you insane? Better be a really great therapist. Like, I don't want to talk to anyone right now.

I'm still processing. And even now, like I said, like I dance with you guys and then I had such a great night. And I think people feel, and I also where I'm from, it's like very, you like someone, then you date them, you love them, you get married, you have children, you receive your pension. It's like all these things that are literally just like,

boom, boom. And it's like, that's not how it is for a lot of us. I was literally having this conversation in the middle of nowhere on my ranch, open the mountains with my mother. And she was like talking, I don't know, she said, do you think you'll ever get married again? I don't think she would have said that,

but somehow it came up. And I was like, it's not that I'm against marriage. I think marriage is beautiful. I think it's amazing. I just don't think that it necessarily is for everyone, you know? I mean, I get why people love apple pie. But like, isn't my favorite pie? Do I have to have apple pie?

No. Like, I don't want it. I don't, like, I don't necessarily want it. Just because everybody's like, this is the best pie you've ever had. Doesn't mean I want to eat it. I don't feel like everybody needs to do the same thing. Because we're all at different points in our life. And even like career wise, I love having like you said a lot of the I I thrive in that environment. I'm the best version of me when I'm productive. I'm the best mother. When

I'm productive, I'm just better. I figure that out for me. That's not everyone. Like, yeah, and I have goals that I want to do. I don't have time for marriage. That's it. If people think you're just going to get married and it's like going to be it's work. It is so much work even if you are in love like you've never been in love in your life. It is work either way. It is day in and day out work. I don't mean to sound it's not horrible. I just mean like it's just a lot of work like for communication and I just mean like, it's just a lot of work, like for communication and we're ever changing. You know, we read something, it inspires us and might not inspire that person. They're so annoyed by it.

Why are we all this sudden that? You know what I'm saying? I don't know that I'll ever get married again. I'm not like against marriage. I would love to fall in love. I would love to experience that. I would love, you know, whatever the future holds is open to it. But I think people get married all the time. Like for, for sometimes reasons that they just feel forced,

it's the next step. That is not why you should get married. Do you feel in your life these days, like in your work and your everywhere life that you're kind of getting to dance alone now? Like you don't have to have that double consciousness because your work and when I see you singing and doing your show and it feels very like you're in your body,

you're doing your thing, like you're dancing. And did you before have to always make sure you weren't being too successful, you weren't being too me, me, me, and now you get to just do that with alcohol. I felt limited, yes. And I don't feel like that's necessarily the truth for all marriage. I just think that was for my case

Like I just felt limited, but fear you know on the same path at the same time and you're actually working together and everyday communicating together and doing the work. I think that it could be beautiful, but for me it wasn't that and it was very limiting Not to say that that's just his fault. That's my fault for allowing that to happen. That's my work as well. It can also be limiting, like I said, because maybe as in love as I was, it just wasn't ready, you know? And maybe the other person wasn't either

and you just try and make it work and it doesn't. I know, and I think that we can like dog marriage a little bit, I know that because we've all had our struggles with marriages before. But I do think that things that I've learned the most about myself was through the heartbreak of losing a marriage. There has been nothing in my life that has taught me more about myself. So like, as much as I do think we need to like be conscious and not necessarily be like intoxicated with the in love feelings before we make the decision to get married,

I do think it's important to note that like it's not all for not for those of us who want to do the work. And it's also in support of marriage. Yeah. The reason you left your marriages because you believed that it could be better than it was. Like when I interviewed you say, I kept trying to make it work, but I didn't want to make it work. I wanted to make it beautiful. I was like, oh my God, yes, we are all like, make it work. Make it work as if that is the gold standard is that it works.

I can make a pile of shit work, but should I? Like I wanted to be beautiful. Yeah, that's the same thing too. I was just talking about somebody else in a different area of like under my umbrella. And it was like, yeah, I can take all that on. And I could do that, but that's not fair. And just because I can do it,

doesn't mean I have to or should. Like, you know, and here's the thing too. I think sometimes we focus too much on finding the person instead of the people. Because there's no way one person, in my opinion, and I love humans, I really do, even the shitty ones, apparently. I just, you know, will give a lot of leeway. But it's not about, I don't feel like, I feel like we put a lot on marriage too, like in partnership, because it's like

There's no way somebody is gonna be able to accomplish all of that for you And there's no way you should put that on them I remember even in my marriage like we would I would constantly be like hey Are you gonna go hang with your friends? I'll go hang with my friends. That is very important Instead of isolating each other and just only being you all the time nobody learns in that environment If you're having the same conversations with the same people and the same, you know, I'm saying like, you need others in your life. And that's and when you're in a relationship and that's not necessarily promoted, that's a giant red flag. That's why I'm such a big thing on like, you know, you are the group you surround yourself or those people that make you better or those people you would want to be, those people, you know, good for you. And I feel like that's the thing, like, yes, you can choose to

spend your life. And I would love to find a partner, like to spend my life with and have fun with, and go bowling with, and drink tequila with, and dance with, and all that, those things. But at the same time, and also, like, that love's reading, and also the love's just things that I'm really into. like that loves reading and also the loves just things that I'm really into. But also I just feel like you don't need to hinge all that on one person. I think that you can get that from your village of people that you surround yourself with. So we started this conversation talking about the circular lessons we learn over and over again. I'm so glad you're following. I'm so glad you're going to go here. It's like a spiral staircase, right? Life is a spiral staircase.

We keep spinning around, coming around to the same lessons. And the only thing that's different is that our thighs are a little stronger. We're just a little stronger when we get to the next problem. We have a little bit of a higher perspective, but it's the same shit. If you had to, at the end of the day,

get really honest with yourself, what lesson did this whole relationship? And it's not even a relationship, it's who you were in the beginning, middle, and end, teach you. Um, really, to boil it down, I feel like it's too not only be honest about those that are around me, but honest about myself. I think it's honesty, because I think, I mean by no means do I think I've ever been a liar, I just mean like I think we mold things and shake them to justify them.

Instead of just being truly honest about what's really happening, because you don't want it to be that way, because once again, your wants and your means are different, right? So I think it's just being honest about, I don't really want that. That's not for me, and that's cool that you want, like, and being okay and comfortable enough, like, coming back to what you're talking about, like coming back to not having transactional relationships and not having just that fear of losing someone if you're so honest with them, because you're going to lose them anyway if you're not being honest. You know, so I think honesty, just being really truly honest about who people are, including yourself.

Yeah, I got a big one for me. I mean listen like you can Talk all the days long your people know you as this lighthouse to me you are truth And that is why people are attracted to you. It's because they can see the truth in you And you speak the truth and you are just so open and honest and I I just feel so inspired by that Not many people in your position in your industry are the way you are. That is why people love you. I think it's fucking cool.

Thank you. You're so fucking awesome. Thank you. You made me feel cool. I was like, okay. No, I love that. So nice. Thank you.

I think at a certain age though too, right? We just get tired of trying to make everything shine. Sometimes it turns a turd. Sometimes it's what it is. So it's okay. You know, I will tell you that I'm glad no one's ever said to me over and over again, you're the light. That sounds like bullshit. That's why you make your reputation Kelly as a depressed introvert. And then no one expects you to be on a party. Okay. What's funny is everybody thinks I'm an extrovert.

I am an extrovert, but I think I am by practice because I am quite an introvert as what like people are always like, hey, let's hang, I don't hang. I hang with like literally like my village, like, and then we get together forcibly because my therapist made me once a week to have a life, like we go out.

But I'm kind of that way too. Like I'm a Netflix and chill person. Like I'm, you know, or I don't know. I'm not as what I think everybody perceives me a lot of the time because I feel like I've just been trained to be that way. So it's interesting that whole conversation about extrovert or introvert. Like I feel like we're all little both.

For sure. Yeah. You're on a spectrum. Well, Kelly, you asked before, like it's hard to know whether you're doing things right or wrong. And I don't think that that's the question. I think you're doing things true. Yeah. And that's...

And in the spirit of truth before we end, I'm going to tell you something that my teenage daughter told me after I made an announcement at one of her good together, which is mom, Netflix and chill doesn't mean what you think it means. If you could stop saying Netflix and chill in front of my friends, that would be great because Netflix and chill does not mean sit on the couch and watch Netflix.

It means have sex. I would love to Netflix and Shild does not mean sit on the couch and watch Netflix. It means have sex. I would love to Netflix and... No, I'm actually meeting it exactly how I think it is. Let's just keep it real. I like to sit on the couch and watch a movie, but I'd also like to show other things. Shild is played the movie is followed by having a lot of sex. Yeah, so next time, be an intermission, people.

Next time a dude walks by you and you feel altered, we're not going to the altar. We're gonna Netflix and show. That's right. Exactly. Amen. We love you, Kelly Clarkson. It's never changed.

I like it, I was so looking forward to this. Thank you for having me. It was a dream. We love it. Everyone get excited for me. It was a dream. We love you. Everyone get excited for chemistry. Chemistry! Oh, I'm real. Oh, thank you all for listening.

That means a lot. Of course. So good. You're the best. You're the best. All right, I love you all. I'm going to call you too. Thank you so much.

She goes next time. All right. Bye. All right, bye, y'all. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, All right, bye, y'all.

If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do each or all of these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you, because you'll never miss an episode, and it helps us, because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode.

To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things Show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on Follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a 5 star rating and review and share an episode you loved with the friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Keynes 13 Studios. I give you Tish Melton and Bradley Carlyle. I walked through fire, I came out the other side. I chased as I er, I made sure I got what's mine.

And I continued to believe. That was mine And I continue to believe That I'm the one for me And because I'm mine I walk the line the line. Because we're adventurers in heartbreak. So now, a final destination. You can fly. You stopped asking directions.

Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring We can do a heartache. I hit rock bottom and felt like a brand new star. a new star. I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks

On man A final destination with that We stopped asking directions So places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives spring We can do a heartache This perfect, fresh, and bright

This perfect, fresh, and bright We might get lost but we're only in that Stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be loved We'll finally find our way back home Through the joy and pain That our lives breathe We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things

Yeah, we can do hard things you