We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - LIVE from Mexico with Brandi and Catherine Carlile

Episode Date: February 25, 2025

388. LIVE from Mexico with Brandi and Catherine Carlile  A big treat for you! In our first-ever live podcast recording from the Girls Just Wanna Weekend, Glennon and Abby welcome very special guests, Brandi Carlile and Catherine Carlile, to talk about courage, community, and how to approach all of life’s hard things. Plus, a special live performance of the We Can Do Hard Things theme song!   -How Brandi and Catherine think about building and joining communities  -What the Girls Just Wanna Weekend is and why it’s so special -Glennon, Abby, Brandi, and Catherine’s advice on self-forgiveness and growth To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

TD Direct Investing offers live support. So whether you're a newbie or a seasoned pro, you can make your investing steps count. And if you're like me and think a TFSA stands for Total Fund Savings Adventure, maybe reach out to TD Direct Investing. Okay. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Get ready for today. Today's episode comes to you from Mexico. So exciting. We are in Mexico at a festival, a music festival started by and run by our dear, dear friends,

Brandi Carlisle and Catherine Carlisle. We've recorded a live episode for you. This is the first time we've ever done a big live recording of We Can Do Hard Things with a huge audience, thousands of people. There were thousands of people there. Who were at this recording with me, Abby, Brandi, and Kath. Sister was not there, but it still

was beautiful because of the energy of this festival. What you need to know, Pod Squad, is that it was during Inauguration weekend. During Inauguration weekend, we were in Mexico with thousands and thousands and thousands of queer, beautiful human beings who were just hell bent on not just resistance, but creating what we discuss in this episode as an irresistible revolution, which is Tony Cade Bambara's beautiful call to us that we not just resist, we do resist, but we don't just resist. We become a movement that is so beautiful and full of life and humanity

and love that we become irresistible and just... That is what Girls Just Want a Weekend is. It is. It's crazy. It is and we are so excited for you to listen to this hour with these thousands of gorgeous, irresistible human beings. What I want to tell you before you listen is just a couple warnings. Okay? First of all, I felt really excited because I met this incredible band full of three gorgeous human beings,

inside and out. Their name is Muna. Yeah, the band is Muna. They're incredible. Okay. And in the episode, I say that... It's because there were thousands of people there. I just want to preface. Like, just the onstage,

without doing this in front of a lot of people, you just were all riled up. I was all riled up, and I said that Muna is my sexuality. Okay? And then everyone just started freaking out. And Pugs, what, if you were there, I could see everyone's faces and Brandi and Kath and Abby. And I felt like, why is everyone making a big deal out of this? Later, okay, what I meant is that the Muna is three different vibes.

There's three people in the group and one, they all have different like gender and sexuality expression. And what I meant was my expression of my sexuality is Muna. And the reason I'm making a big deal out of this introduction is because I felt like what I said was like I'm attracted to each of them, which would be fine, except I don't want to be objectifying these love bugs. Like I didn't mean to objectify them. I actually just want to be their queer elder auntie, which I also express in this. I meant my sexuality expression is embodied in all three of them. Yeah, and okay. And just like, don't worry folks.

I was sitting right there the whole time. I don't believe that Glennon wants Muna as her sexuality. I believe that things are fluid and Glennon has the right to say and be whoever she is. Thank you. And then I want to say one other thing before the Pod Squad listens is that there was this moment where all of this is about Muna, but I said that what I loved about Muna was that their expression of queerness is so joyful. And sometimes I feel like it's such a beautiful thing for young queer people to just see the joy because there's always in queer art, there's so much tragedy and trauma and that is real too.

But in songs like Silk Chiffon, it's just so gorgeous to see artists saying, queerness is fun and beautiful and doesn't have to have the trauma. And that actually was Tish's thought, but I didn't say it because I was afraid that, I mean, Tish was sitting- Oh, you stole it from her.

I basically stole it from Tish. But the reason why I didn't say that mean, Tish was sitting in- Oh, you stole it from her. I basically stole it from Tish. But the reason why I didn't say that it was Tish is because she was sitting right in the front row and I didn't have her permission to say it. So afterwards I asked her if I could say it was her idea and she said yes. So anyway, good luck with all that. But tell them who comes out and opens the event for us.

Oh, and you all, okay, so we're about to record. We're in this place with thousands of people. Brandi and Kath are there. And then Brandi and Tish go out on stage and together sing the We Can Do Hard Things song to open up the whole thing. And you all are about to hear that now. ["We Can Do Hard Things"]

["We Can Do Hard Things"] Thank you for coming out of the sun for a little while to join us and do some soul work. Sing along if you know this song. You do. I walked through fire, I came out the other side I got what's mine And I continue to believe That I'm the one for me And because I'm mine I walk the line Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on back Our final destination we left

We stopped asking directions To places they've never been To be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah! I hit rock bottom

It felt like a brand new start I'm not the problem sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe the best people are free And it took some time, but I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on back The final destination we've at We've stopped asking directions

To places they have never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do hard things do hard things. Hard things. Cause we're adventurers and heartbreaks on that. We might get lost but we're okay with that.

We've stopped asking directions To places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain that our lives bring We can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things Yeah, we can do hard things. Tish Melton, everybody.

Give it up for your daughter. I'm Lillian Powell, everybody. She got so nervous right before, and then she's just like, unstoppable. We call it skited in our family you know when you're half scared half excited and you can't decide which one? Skited. Well welcome to We Can Do Hard Things everybody. Do they know that this is an actual podcast that we are recording that will literally be on the We Can Do Hard Things podcast feed.

And it's the first podcast we've ever recorded outside of our son's bedroom. That is true. We've been there, it's true. Yeah, yeah. So this is true. We've been there, it's true. Yeah, yeah, so this is different. And the reason we decided to do this is because we don't have a more special place or experience than this weekend.

This is a bit of a... It's our North Star every year now that we've been, this is our second year and we're coming every year. I hope we get invited. So we wanted to tell the pod squad about it. We wanted to tell the people who listen all over the world every week about this place and you people. And so we're here with two of the most important people in our hearts and lives. You know them, they're Brandi and Kath. They're here.

Cheers and applause. Brandi Carlisle and Katharine Carlisle for those listening. And one of the reasons why I'm excited to do this is because Brandi and Kath are hard to give compliments to. There's some kind of like Teflon situation that happens where I don't know if they're just so used to hearing gratitude and awe from people. And so I just actually had to like make it my, like I needed you to be on my show so I could tell you things and you'd have to sit there.

Right? Uh-uh, uh-uh. Right. What I'd like to do first is to ask Brandy first to use whatever language is available to you in this moment to try to describe to the pod squad what Girls Just Wanna Weekend is. What is this? What is happening?

Exactly. Good luck. I mean, I just have to start by saying it's just so important to me. I need it so much as a reminder of how people can be when they get together en masse and how, you know, we were talking earlier about swarm intelligence, how you see these flocks of birds change direction and you're like, how are they communicating with each other, you know, or flying fish or bees

or something like that. And there's just something beautiful about the fact that we are meant to be innately connected to one another and spiritually aligned. And we come to this place and everybody just gets it and even the new people you just get here and you get it it's a little culty but it that just doesn't bother me I think it doesn't surprise me I just think it's innately good you know know, I was telling Shania the other night,

because Shania was just like, hasn't ever seen anything like this before. And you know, I'm always a little worried about what outsiders are going to think when they come in and see how we all behave for four days. But she was pretty stoked and I was trying to tell her, I was like, you know, when Lilith Fair came to town in like 1997, I was something like 16 or 17 years old. And it was like, kind of the first big thing I got to do on my own with like a group of friends. And we were in this little sapphic rock band and just like living our best lives in the

sun at Lil Fair and I remember I had like money to buy like a big gulp-sized Mountain Dew when I was all sunburned like a baby dyke with like my hair all cut short and I remember like just standing in this line to go get my Mountain Dew and there was this woman that was just like honey come here and she just put sunscreen all over my shoulders and she said you can buy one thing with that money and that's water and I was like I'm not gonna get away with shit here like but there was just something about and then it was like all her friends were the same and there you know and then I met somebody else it was

like well who were you with you need to sit with us you know like there was just this thing that was taking place where women were put into positions of agency, autonomy, and power. Something happens to the people that go to support that. And I think that that might be minimizing what's happening here because I'm learning that it might be more powerful than that.

But it has something to do with it and I kind of feel like I'm 16 again every time I'm here. How does it make you feel, Kath? First of all, this is terrifying. Speaking of hard things, I don't know whose idea it was to give me a microphone and have me talk. But seriously, I just feel really proud. Just proud of the lineup, proud of the work and effort it takes for our incredible crew and team to put this on. There are so many people responsible for this.

Special shout out to Snelly Cat. She's out there somewhere. And just really proud of the community that really built this. Because people keep saying, this is so amazing what you and Brandy really built this. Because people keep saying, this is so amazing what you and Brandi have built here. And I say, it's not us, it's you. It's you. And for as long as you keep showing up,

and we'll keep showing up. And it's just a privilege and an honor to do this every year. And we won't let you down. We'll work. We'll work long days, anything we can to be worthy of what you guys create here. I just want to do more of a detailed, like what is it? So... In five words.

You know, just like... So it's like a flock. What is it? It's like a flock of birds. We have some guidelines. And then suddenly we change direction. For the listener. I'm saying for the listener who has no idea what we're talking about. Okay, okay.

I'm talking to them, I need to be talking about them. I understand, I understand. I didn't even think of that. I thought, great, we're a flock of birds. This is a group of thousands of people who are witnessing and enduring a world adjacent to, if not completely entrenched in turmoil. Coming together for four days every year, not to leave their emotions and their feelings and their fears at the door, but to fully bring them in, break them apart, and share one another's burdens. To be here in support of each other and to be here in the euphoria of music under

the stars, just being fully who they are, whatever that means, for four days. Boom. What? That just comes out your mouth just like that? It is what it is. Well, I'm actually going to ask Glennon a question, because I want to know what it means to you. It meant something different last year, what it means to me this year. I keep having this challenge at Girls Just Want to Witches that I just keep starting

to cry constantly. And actually, everyone in our family, somebody breaks down every day and it's like this huge thing and then it's me maybe four or five times a day. And it's very hard to describe. It's not a feeling. It's not I'm happy or I'm sad. It is like an internal swelling that is just like being in the presence of complete truth and complete kindness.

I guess it's love is what it is. It's just like, it's like coming out of my body or something in tears and then it's like baptism all the time. But I also, what it means to me this year, we were talking about this earlier, like what we're gonna have to do this year in particular, like what is this gonna look like? And we're talking about how the language has been

really around resistance for so long, and that that's just not beautiful enough anymore. That like resisting something means that the thing that's most important not beautiful enough anymore. That like resisting something means that the thing that's most important is the other thing. It's in reaction to something. Whoa. And right? It's like the other thing is the most important

and we're just reacting to it, but that is not what we're doing here. Like I don't even know who else exists here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And there was this artist named Toni K. Barbera. And she said that the job of the artist is to make the revolution irresistible. And this is irresistible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Right? Well said. Whoa. You don't have to yell at anybody actually. That's so exhausting. I'm so tired. Like I just want joy and beauty and love and and thisness and then everybody else will be like I want that. Right? So that's what it is to me. It's an irresistible revolution. And you guys started building, I know you're always like, it wasn't us.

I mean, okay, all right. Okay. Okay. It was definitely you. And you built it before we needed it. And when you say things like, we will show up as long as you show up, people don't say that shit.

Like that makes me wanna cry that you said that. You can cry, Glennon. You know, in the production office, we have a crying corner. I think we should have one at the festival too. We need some crying corners. I will just take office hours there and people can meet me there. Actually, yeah, let's do that next year.

You need one. What do you want to talk about next love? Me? Yeah. Oh wow. Can you talk to us about... I'm nervous. We've had so many conversations over the last eight hours and I don't know how many of them are appropriate for public, so why don't you pick one? We're old friends here. Well, I think one of the things that this space and this weekend gives me is it allows me

to be in my body and experience folks like Muna last night And to be like really really like raw and honest There's like a kind of jealousy that lives in me for their expression and their freedom in their expression. And I don't know if any of the older lesbians in the room would understand what I'm saying, but I think that when I watch them perform, I think, you done good, kid.

Oh, oh. And all of you, and all of you older lesbians who have charted the path, the ones that came before us, you've done good, kid. All of it. It's all the things it. Are you crying? It's all down to the things that these people did when they didn't have a stage. The fact that now it has a stage is just like being on a roller coaster watching that happen. I know what you mean about that kind of little twinge of pain of like, oh.

I have a 15 year old self, a 10 year old self who's like, oh yes, and oh I'm sad for you. And that's all real and it's so beautiful. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I just am so in touch and it feels like so many things are happening every single day here. I just am so in touch and it feels like so many things are happening every single day here that there's just like this instant like, whoa, this doesn't happen in the real world.

And I'm just so grateful for this container because it allows me to see my growth. It allows me to see where I might be falling short or where I still have more growth to make. So it's just such a beautiful, and everybody's so lovely and nice. So thank you for being so lovely and nice. Is there a joint pod in the future between you and Muna? Because they love you guys. I woke up this morning and I said, my sexuality is Muna.

I woke up this morning and I said, my sexuality is Muna. I'm... I'm... I'm... This is now news to me. She did not tell me this. So we... So we...

No, I don't mean I want Muna. This is permanent information. I mean, I am Muna. Yeah. Yeah. I've already composed emails in my head about how I can get them to accept me as their queer elder auntie.

Like I am... They have, they have. They want to like talk, I mean this is like, you know who should talk about this with, is them, is them. Because they actually have such insight, like I've been able to pull them aside for a couple of conversations, and the things that they're thinking about,

and the things that they're saying, are so heartening and so beautiful and so exciting, that I just, you guys gotta talk to them. Okay, well is there any other way? For sure. That sounds scary but we'll do that okay. No I just love their joy and their freedom and their I loved that they said just Venmo us I was like oh my god you're just like taking away all the middlemen like there's something very revolutionary about that. Yeah I was sitting with Shania and she looked at me and she goes, I trust her. Me too, I'll give her all my money.

Whatever you wanna do, Katie. Take our money. Because there's also like all the queer art can be so angsty and painful and like, it all has to be so, and to see them just be like, oh no, it's gonna be joyful. Like, fun makes me I'm like yes she fun shit yes anyway we've gone down a little moon attract let's just bring it back we're gonna talk about the sexuality thing later shit I knew that was gonna come back to bite me.

I don't want to miss that. I'm just like, which one? All of them, all of them. Let's guess, let's guess. Yes, Abby. Trying to figure it out. All of them equally, yes. us. What happens when fear and prejudice are ignited by the hysteria of war?

I'm Sharon McMinn, host of Here's Where It Gets Interesting. I answer that question in my new series, 9066, and dig into the stories of more than 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry who were imprisoned in the United States during World War II. Find here's where it gets interesting in the free Odyssey app and everywhere you get your podcasts. I want to go back to what you were talking about because so this thing happened that I wonder if anyone can relate to so we were at a bank and you were at a bank I know it was so weird did you say bank a bank yeah this is an old story. Not in Mexico. It goes to a bank. I know. Yep.

The bank. It was when we first got married. And the bank guy gave us a piece of paper and it said, gave it to us at a table. And it said, husband, wife. And I was like, first of all, are you serious? Like, are you looking, do you? And I said some things about how they might update

their paperwork and that we wouldn't be at this bank anymore unless their paper was, and like, the time to update their paperwork was like last century. And so it was just like, honestly, a normal Tuesday for me. And we left and we got in the van and Abby said, it makes me feel sad in moments like that, because I think, why am I not brave like that? And it started this beautiful conversation,

and it's because I grew up with straight privilege. When I walk into a room, I'm expecting to be treated with equality. I'm expecting a certain thing. And how did you feel? Yeah, I mean, I grew up kind of hiding and apologizing for my sexuality a lot. It wasn't in any way celebrated, not only in my family, but, you know, in our communities and in our country and the world.

And I just felt kind of, in all of those little microaggressive moments, I always just felt like, oh, I need to make myself smaller here and apologize for my space that I was occupying. And so when we got in the car, I was baffled that this 5'2", yes, you are 5'2", not 5'4", woman,

she just flung the papers across the table and she just said, fix this. I'm not signing something that doesn't make any sense to me. But that wasn't my point. My point is that it was privilege, not courage. I understand. You are so brave. You paved the way for people like me to be like,

I'm not taking this shit. Like you and you and you did that. What does community mean to you two? I have never met anyone who does community like you two. Not, this is just the tip of the iceberg of your lives. You have made me less afraid of people. Yes, thank you. It's something very deep.

Like I call you. Yeah, you call me, we'll talk about that later. Phone rings and you might answer. Yeah, but no, I just mean in a deep way, the way that you invite people into your lives in a way that you're not scared of, the way that you invite people into your lives in a way that you're not scared of, the way that you invite people on stages, what does community mean to you?

And when you talk about it with each other, how do you make decisions about how you do it? Why does your life look like it looks? Do you wanna take that one, baby? I mean, I think it's completely unplanned, honestly. It's interesting because for us to be together, I had to emigrate and I left my entire community behind. Maybe some of them are here, I don't know,

they're probably drinking tequila some way, but. Yeah. So I was kind of starting over with no friends and family and it was just Brandy. And she already had this established community and family and friends around her. And I think initially I had like a little bit of resistance to it because I was a bit of a hermit too, like I kind of. But I honestly don't know how I could have made

that transition without being welcomed immediately by her community. And I think it's so incredibly important. They didn't really know who I was, you know, they hadn't met my friends, they hadn't really met my family, but they fully embraced me. And I remember for our London wedding, Tim comes to the London wedding and I think it was the first time he'd met my community and he pulled me aside and he said,

you've got so many friends. And I was like, well, yeah, I, you know, I'd lived 30 years before I met Brandy. And he said, he goes, if I'm honest, I was wondering whether you were a total loner and you could just kind of come over and you know move to America and it just cracked me up because What was the question? It doesn't matter. I mean to you. We won't listen to you talk. It's essential It's essential community is essential. I love hearing you have to say that

Yeah So Catherine when she was in London like people would come to her door and knock on her door and she would not come downstairs and answer the door. Well it had to be scheduled. British people schedule things, okay. We schedule cups of teas and FaceTime meeting and like months in advance. Yeah. So if your doorbell rings in Britain, you're like, who is that? Yeah, and why are they here? Yeah. And I'm just like, my favorite song growing up

was Car Wheels on a Gravel Road, because I just wanted to hear people approaching me. I just wanted to hear that there was constantly gonna be someone in my space every day. And I have always really kind of doubled down on community or I've been accused of being extremely codependent by mystery people. And I have dealt with the reality of that probably

most of my life. And it's a bit of a controversial thing. I think a lot about Joni's lyrics in that Hajira album about these pilgrimages and to flee with honor and to go and find yourself and I get all that and it may be a controversial take on things but I just really fundamentally don't believe, correct me, fix me later, but I don't believe people are meant to be alone. It doesn't mean you have to be in a relationship, you know alone. Doesn't mean you have to be in a relationship.

You know, it doesn't mean you have to be with your dysfunctional family if that's toxic for you. It just means you cannot become isolated and disenfranchised. You have to find your people so that you have support and spiritual alignment with your fellow human beings because it helps you, it reflects who you are back onto you. And I don't know how to live without as

many people as I can get my hands on. Well, I spent many a day on a team and figuring out what like the art of teamwork and team-manship and Brandi, still, I'm learning from you and Catherine. It's really in art the way that you collaborate with all the people. And there isn't like this perception of hierarchy that you bring to any stage or any room or any conversation.

You both are so open and generous with so much of your time and your heart. And I just, honestly, I just think you've chosen such a beautiful path for yourself in life. And I just wanna, on behalf of this group, like thank you for showing all of us, like what true community builders can look like and how it can come to fruition in weekends like this.

It's really beautiful. You know, that's so beautiful. And you are, I'm going to put you on the spot in a moment, and I'm going to go on about you two and community too in a second. But I want to say one thing about people that are exhausted by community. And how...

Right? Like our daughter sometimes. Yeah. And me sometimes. Yeah, and it's not like a, it's not friction. It's not an inability to be with other people or acquiesce or be flexible. It's feeling too many people's feelings, taking on all that responsibility

and wondering how you could possibly conserve any energy when there are so many people in the room that you really just wanna lean into. Yeah, I think if you're an empath, it can be exhausting. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes, I sometimes think that. I'm like, I'm not a jerk.

I'm just very sensitive. But, and I mean that in. I'm like, I'm not a jerk. I'm just very sensitive. And I mean that in a way, like truly, if I'm in a room with a lot of people, Abby and I can be in the same room and leave and report completely different experiences. Right? It can be a lot for people. What about community is hard for you two? community is hard for you two. Well, Brandi's stamina is just kind of unbelievable. The stamina for performance. Hey! And she just, she...

Is there a little sexual innuendo in this somewhere? No, no double entendre there, no. I'll let you make up your minds about that. But she's like the last one standing. I mean, me and the twins are like, can we leave this place? And she's like just... So I think it's like a battery power thing.

Like I hide in bathrooms sometimes just to recharge and go back out so I can keep up with her. So, I mean, would that be true in your case? Actually, when she does, when her batteries do die, it's instant. And there are signs of that happening. It looks like this. What are the signs? And then I'm like, oh, it's happened, it's happened.

Somebody save her, somebody save her. No. You don't get a warning. It just, you're done. I think it's just that like, and the kids know this and Catherine knows this, and this is probably the biggest criticism that I've learned to sustain about. It's like, Brandy's gonna Brandy.

And it's like, from the time I was a kid, somebody would come to my house, I would answer the door with a Nintendo controller in one hand and flip the person off with the other hand and go, there's onion in the fridge, fuck off, I'm gonna take a shower. And like, not even, not be present. Just do whatever I was gonna do anyway.

And that's how I get through days like this, is just deciding on my own whether or not to wear makeup or get out of my pajamas, and I'm just gonna turn up and be however I am, sorry. And that hasn't always been great, but that's how I don't get tired, is I know I'm just gonna, I don't know how to not just be exactly how I am at all times.

And that could mean totally ignoring someone or everyone while they're in my home. That's, I feel like that's actually quite profound. I mean, I remember somebody recently said to me, I had to show up for something and I said, how do I do it, what am I supposed to do? And she said, just be yourself. And I said, I don't know how much longer I can keep that up.

And then I thought, what the hell does that mean? And I'm not sure, but it's not that. I don't know, it's like a social problem I have. Yeah, that's good. It does give me a lot of stamina because I'm not really rising to the occasion. Yeah. You know?

Yeah, that's good. If you're always yourself, then you have nothing to worry about. Then it's your battery. Yeah. It's not the world turning the dial for you. You're turning it yourself. And so when you're tired, you're like,

I'm out of battery, no problem. Yeah, what do you have to offer me? Exactly? Exactly. I'm tired. Welcome. Give me something give me energy or a new thing or a goss like let's yeah Let's talk shit, you know, like, you know Definitely, I'm always open to whatever I can get from another person and now cat and that Catherine I would say you're like that. You don't have a choice because Americans they just Just what they just grab you You don't have a choice because Americans, they just... They just what? They just grab you.

We don't let you go. Well, I grab them too. You're our Mary Poppins. You know. Well, I don't know about that. But it's funny. It's like a dance, isn't it? There's signals.

You know, when somebody's tapped out, you kind of step in and you take the reins. And Brandy's...one of Brandy's signals, which is really hilarious, is that when we have house guests sometimes and she's done, she goes to the piano and starts playing music. And I'm like, if you want people to leave your house, don't fucking go and play piano.

But I'm gone, I'm gone at that point. Then I'm in a piano and I'm just not there, you know? This is good news. I'm gonna be so sad if we're at Brandi and Kat's house and Brandi starts playing the piano. Has that ever happened? No, I'm so grateful now I know. We'll be like, okay, see you later.

We're outta here. Here's the thing, this is gonna maybe sound like a weird question, but does building community take a lot of confidence? I keep thinking, you just invited all these people here and just assumed that people would come. That's so terrifying. Well, and that everything will be okay.

And that we're not gonna have lightning every night and that we're not all gonna get norovirus and that we're not all gonna get norovirus, and that, you know, and it's like, yeah, no, it takes, it actually can be a bit like crippling fear sometimes for me because I'm just so afraid that whatever I told everybody to come do is gonna be like fire festival and it's just gonna be. Right. I have nightmares about it, you know,

but again, it's not about me being victorious at the end of a successful weekend, it's not about me being victorious at the end of a successful weekend. It's about everyone else experiencing each other and me remembering that I'm really just a part of it. I'm not trying to air our dirty laundry or make our, like, you know, our lives too public, but the things that I have called you two for advice about, the ways that we have leaned into one another

and our families and our kids, it's been life-giving for our family. And I know that when we do that for each other, it has a ripple effect that can extend to all of our friends here. And it's pretty extraordinary, the things we've talked each other through. For sure, right back at you.

You're leaders in ways that I think people feel, but don't overtly know. They know. They know. They're behind almost everything me and Kath do right. That's the truth. Should we take some questions from these love bugs? I do think it's Q&A time.

Where are they? Devon, you're right here. They're right here. Questions largely for Abby. As a professor of communication turned college dean, my introduction to you was not soccer, sadly, but the Bernard commencement address. Woo!

And over the last six years, especially in my leadership journey, I know that taking care of that Wolf Pack is important, but more than anything, the mantra for me has been, give me the fucking ball. And it has meant everything to me and changed me. This past year, I lost my mom.

And I appreciate your discussions about journey, of grief and where you have come to in moving on. I actually listened to them on the way to my best friend's mom's funeral, which was really sort of powerful and poignant. And I really especially appreciated talking about the not knowing being the point. As a bit of a control freak, that's a struggle for me. And because you gave me a mantra before that changed me,

I'm wondering if you have mantras or self-talk that keeps you in a positive space in the grief journey more often than not. Yeah, thank you so much. And for those who may not know, my brother passed away a year ago, and so this last year has been a little bit of a doozy. And I'm so sorry for your loss.

I know that it's tough and confusing and it feels like the mantra of my year, this year is like, I'm good. And one of the most beautiful things, because I kind of think that this grief thing kind of goes in a circle and it just kind of keeps spiraling and for me I've kind of completed this full year circle and my brother's death is such a big lesson that time will go by quickly

unless you're paying attention right like you ever wake up and you're like my god where did that month go? But then there's like a few days or a week that goes by and it's just like so slow. And those slow days are what I'm like aching for. I'm aching for slowness. Not to slow time down, but to be as completely present as possible

and to be as completely present as possible and to be as completely grateful for the breath that I have for this experience this weekend to be with you all and Glennon I guess it was like nine ten eleven months after he had passed away told me this beautiful story my brother's name was Peter and She said hey, I have this, do you wanna tell the story? I'll tell the first part. Okay.

Okay, so Abby has always been very, very, very afraid of death. And I know we're all afraid of death, but this was kind of huge. And it took us like too many years to figure out that it was tied to the fact that when she was a child, people taught her that there was a fiery place full of flames and devils that after she died,

she would go to. It turns out that can do a number on a kid. Okay. We should rethink that story. So. I was told I was going to story. So. I was told I was going to hell. Yeah. I mean, I think they got, okay.

I know, I'm just, you know. It's not like I said it was a flock of birds. I feel like I was. Making sure we're all following along your line. So. I always felt like if I were a superhero, my super power would be stories. Like I would like look at you and be like,

I know you think you deserve to be with a cheater, but I have a better story. Like I know that you think this, but I have a better story. Like just more beautiful and more beautiful and beautiful stories because we're all living inside of them. And so now you go. And so Glennon told me that in the Christian faith, Jesus, one of his apostles was named Peter.

And Jesus gave Peter the keys to heaven. And when she told me that, she was like, so, you know, your brother's name was Peter, and so Peter, and you don't know my brother Peter, but he was like the biggest, loveliest teddy bear, welcomed everybody, wanted, he was like, basically, if he was the bouncer at a bar, he would let everyone in.

So she was like, so don't you see? Like, your brother is deciding who everyone in. So she was like, so don't you see, like your brother is deciding who gets in and he's letting you in. That is a better story. And I was like this, like you should, I mean tears were rolling down my face. I was like, you have kept this from me for one year? But she knew, she knew I had to be ready to hear it. And so

actually she ended up giving me this medallion of St. Peter and it's really beautiful and I wear it almost every day. And so in terms of a mantra like this year I feel like right now I'm good, and I don't know, tomorrow I might be like, not. Grief is weird, and for me too, as a recovered addict, I didn't realize that the grief that I was gonna experience with my brother, I was also going to be dragging the train of grief

that I had not yet dealt with. And that was a doozy. It's still a doozy. dragging the train of grief that I had not yet dealt with. And that was a doozy. Still a doozy. And so it's just something that I have learned to, I've resisted it and now I've learned to accept that grief will now live within me and that I will constantly be returning to it for the rest of my life.

And that is okay. Thank you. Sorry for your loss. okay. Thank you. Sorry for your loss. Beautiful. Thank you. Hi, my name is Valerie. So my wife, this is my wife, have spent, my wife and I have spent the last five years building our family. It's been pretty much our only focus because we were going through fertility treatments and we actually lost one of our sons and I feel like that's a lot about like

You as the mom and like I carried the babies and so I felt very much like it was about me And it was a like sort of took it on as my identity Now that we're done We just had a baby six months ago Thank you. I find myself trying to like put that energy somewhere where I'm not worrying about being a good mom or nitpicking the things my kids and my baby are doing and I really want to shift my focus. So I was wondering and you've talked about this a little bit about having the right kind

of focus on your kids. If you have any advice about who we can be for moms that are done growing our family and we're just trying to grow with our family. Great question. Can anyone else answer this question? I mean, I think I struggle with the exact same thing, honestly, it's, gosh, I wish I knew the answer to this question.

Does anyone? Well, no, for sure not. But let's say things anyway. Say stuff. That's all I do, Couch. How to grow with your children. Well, listening to them. I find myself talking over my kids a lot. And I try to catch myself when it happens.

And more often than not, they catch me doing it. And my little Elijah, she's, no, listen, no, listen to me. No, mom, listen. Like, and I'm like, okay, you have my attention. I think children just really show us everything we need to know about ourselves ultimately. They're like, I don't wanna sound cliched, but they really are a mirror.

It's good. Talk about mom guilt, honey. Oh gosh, mom guilt. The thing that we talk about every day that you have. Yeah, I struggle with mom guilt every single day, several times a day. And it's something I still struggle with, and I don't even know where it comes from.

I think parenting is just really difficult. You're never gonna feel like you're really winning. Most of the time, you're gonna feel like you're failing. But I think it's just really human, and I don't know, I really don't know the answer to this. You speak, somebody else speak. That was beautiful. That's great.

I think that if I could do it over. Our children are here. Oh, that's right. And then I'd change nothing. Right there. Just as a reminder. No, they know this. They know this.

a reminder. No, they know this. They know this. I think that I would have shifted some of the energy that I, I think I over-indexed on the I've got you energy. I think it was very important for me to feel like the kids knew that I had them, that I had their back, that their mom would do anything for them, that I would always make sure they were okay. And I wish, and I'm trying to fix it now, but I wish that I had put a little less emphasis on I've got you and a little more emphasis on you've got you. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's where the magic is. That's what we're trying to

do. We're just trying to create space where they figure out, I don't have to look to you. I can look to me and you'll be there, but I've got me. And I think one of the ways we can do that, wait till they get older and start to go out into the world and have their own lives. Because what you find out is that it wasn't just your identity for me, it's the only place that I've ever felt real belonging, ever, is in this little microcosm of humans. And so when they start leaving, it's not only a loss of identity, but it's a loss of belonging of just a lot. And so what I have figured

out is that it's like, you know how, okay, let's say they're like butterflies, right? If you chase them, they just fly faster. Okay? Like, and I have tried. It's, there's a chasing energy as they grow that does not work and becomes a burden to them. And you become, like, they come back because they think that you need them as opposed to the other way around. Yeah. And so there is a way of doing it, I think,

that is more like creating your little life as that kind of butterfly garden that's so beautiful and so fertile and so attractive that they just want to come back. And I think what I know about you already is that you're doing it, because you're here. You already do have an identity outside this, Babies. You already are creating an identity outside those babies.

You already are creating yourself and your life and creating an irresistible revolution that they will want to come back to. Yeah, that's it. Right? They'll have to hang and then they'll be there. Yeah. And I wanna say one thing really quick too,

or the quick thing is that Alex said something earlier about returning to the ones who remember you, is that you went through a really intense journey when you went through IVF and when you did your family planning. A person that watched you do it is your wife, and I promise you, your wife is in awe of you. And she knows exactly who you are. And who you were, and she'll help you find it again.

So good. Hi, I'm Crystal. I'm a long-time member of the Pod Squad, really excited to get to do this. I'm also somebody who's been pretty active and politically engaged my whole life. And after eight years of mega, I find myself exhausted and full of a simmering rage that's just right there all the time. You hear that giggle of agreement. Yeah.

Those are your people. And I'm, you know, grieving things we've already lost. I'm grieving the things that are going to come. And I'm fighting the urge to just hide, to just check out, to go away, and just duck and cover, and wait for four years to be over. But I know that's a trap. It's self-protective, and I get that, but it's also self-sabotaging, because that's not who I am.

I'm curious and open and kind and soft and I'll be damned if I let some fucking fascists take that from me. So I know that's a trap. They can take a lot of things, but they can't have me. So I would really love any of your thoughts about how we avoid that urge to wall off and get cynical and protect ourselves, and instead just keep showing up for each other and not giving up who we are because it's awful. So yeah, any thoughts on that?

No, you. You too. Can you tell them what you texted me the day after the election? Yeah, yeah. I wrote a song that just, I just was thinking of you the whole time I was writing it, that song, Human. And I sent you the lyrics and I sent you the song.

But what else did I text you? You said, I know, oh god, you said. I texted you like five miles of texting. You said, it was, one of the things you said was, I know it's awful, I know it's horrible, but have you ever seen something about a forest? What was it? What was it?

I said, no, I don't think I've ever seen a forest. Should I find a forest? I said, and this is so, it's not been lost on me that verse. I said, no, I don't think I've ever seen a forest. Should I find a forest? I said, and this is so, it's not been lost on me that verse. I said, no, I don't think I've ever seen a forest. Should I find a forest?

I said, and this is so, it's not been lost on me that verse. I said, no, I don't think I've ever seen a forest. Should I find a forest? I said, and this is so, it's not been lost on me that verse. I said, and this is so, it's not been lost on me that verse. I said, and this is so, it's not been lost on me that verse. I said, and this is so, it's not been lost on me that verse. I said, and this is so, it's not been lost on me that verse. I said, and this is so, it's not been lost on me, that verse. I don't want to grind out. Where's the crying corner? I said, have you ever seen the beauty of a wildfire sun?

She said, I know it's all awful, but have you ever seen the beauty of a wildfire sun? So, I think... And then I texted her a wildfire sun, okay? The photo of one. Yeah, she texted me because she knew I sure as hell hadn't seen that. And if they're not inside, I haven't seen them. Okay, can I just say something specifically to you? I think that one of your instincts to stop exposing yourself to this shit is really, really good.

It's like, no offense to anyone who does, but I don't listen to true crime because I want to say stay shocked and appalled by the idea of women being hurt and killed. I don't wanna be desensitized to it, okay? I was talking about this this morning, but so many of us have fought like hell to have lives where we are not constantly exposed to racist, rapy, fascist bullies. Like we have worked hard for that. And we feel it viscerally because a lot of us had those kind of people leading our hallways

and our classrooms and the buses and our families and all of that. And so it is okay for you to decide that you are going to create and expose yourself to things that will allow you to be the beautiful, sensitive, soft person that you are because that is actually a way to avoid the slow march into numbness that allows fascism to take place. That is the work, okay? And we can do a third way, like we don't have to do it their way. We can stay informed. We will create that. I stopped, I haven't been on social media for six months. I decided I'd stopped. I do not hate myself enough to do it anymore. Okay. I haven't watched the news since the last debate. And I was okay with that. And just recently I've been like it's time. It's time to figure something else out. Yeah. Right. And we're gonna do that. I have

this dear friend who came to stay with me during the LA fires because she was sheltering at our house. And I've been waiting for, when I have ideas, I've been waiting for the universe to also have the idea. So I'm not always out there on my own. And she does the news. And she's been doing news in a way that is not like a nervous system hijacking. She's going to start doing the news on the We Can Do Hard

Things feed. I said, I will engage again if we do it a different way. Will you guys want to listen to a calm, conscious, awake, and awareness and so you can stay in touch with what is going on without having to be putting yourself in a position where your nervous system is gonna get jacked up every single hour of every single day. You'll listen? Okay.

We'll build it. We'll do it together. We'll do it together. I'm with you and we'll do it together. Okay? But I think you have the right idea. Yeah. Glennon, you said something really clever post-election result to me on a separate text thread where you said

less empire more community and I think that just as Glennon does she just encapsulated how we should be moving forward. Yes. We can do it our way. All right we got a couple more questions we gotta get through, yep. Go ahead. Hi, I'm Carrie. I have a question which kinda seems pointless after dancing next to Abby and Glennon last night to Moona because I also, my identity is now Moona as well.

And Abby, I think I know which one she might have been talking about. No, I'll tell you later. But this is more so for Glennon. We have the same sort of coming out story about living our lives in what I call default hetero, just on autopilot, as far as sexuality. And you mentioned something like inside you don't feel any gender, you don't feel male or female.

Same. So I was just wondering what advice would you give somebody that currently might identify as queer because they don't fit in any sort of box with their identity, with gender, and also coming to their queerness later in life and how you reconcile your past with what it is now. Okay. This morning, before we were doing the gorgeous screening of Alex's film,

Aloke, I was thinking about me or maybe feeling about gender this morning. I was asking myself how do I feel about it today? I like to use fresh language about it all the time. I thought okay this morning if I had to I am like, my aesthetic is Glinda, but my soul is Elphaba. Yeah! Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!

Yeah! Yeah! Like my gender is, I'm a nightmare dressed like a daydream. Right? My gender is Trojan horse, okay? I'm like Glinda, but I'm like a better Glinda. I'm like Glinda that gets on the broom. Okay?

I'm Glinda, and if she didn't get on the broom, it's because she had a meeting with Elphaba earlier, and so they decided that she was going to stay in Oz, but she was going to stay in Oz, and her goal was to liberate Oz from the inside. So her allegiance was still with Elphaba, but she was just like a spy, okay? This shit happened to me this morning.

Did anybody track that? Yes! Wow! Of course they did! Wow! Yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, I'm not like a white feminist, Glinda. I'm just feminist Glinda, right? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I'm not like white feminist, Glinda.

I'm just feminist Glinda, right? Yeah. Okay. So there's that. And I also feel like this, and I feel like some femme presenting people feel this way. There's like some feminists that can be like male gazey that I'm performing for the male gaze. And I know that that's there.

But I also think that if I was on a desert island, after I understood that I was gonna die because I can't even get a meal together if I'm in a kitchen full of food, I would then find myself a few days in probably using sticks to get my nails right and making rings and bracelets out of twigs. I think I would be doing that

because a lot of that shit for me is not between me and men or me and the male gaze. It's like, I need my nails to be a certain way so I can like talk to God this way. It's like, so God recognizes me. It's like between me and God. My hair and nails are between me and God, okay? I mean, the six pounds of foundation on my face

is definitely between me and Instagram, but. The nails and hair are real, okay? So that's my gender, and also Muna. And the Trojan Horse thing is like... I don't know. It's not a performance. It's real. Like I get invited into places because people think I'm safe and I'm not safe at all. Like I'm not safe, you know?

Yeah, so like I'm there to betray everything. Like I'm at the table to fuck everything up all the time. So what I'm saying is just don't use male language, don't use the language that they've been given to us about gender. Just completely go off script and use Disney movies or whatever else. Just use whatever the hell language you feel like. I can't use male and female anymore. And it doesn't make sense to me.

It's like the software has been upgraded and I can't understand that language anymore. And I also don't know any men. I don't know what they're doing. I don't know. But I think that I would like to be, I don't know how to be in a space with men and not feel myself in a violent situation.

And I don't mean that I'm going to get violent, although there is that. I mean like, I actually have not gotten to a place where I feel bodily autonomy around men. What I mean by that is I feel like because I must present a certain way that men expect me to laugh when they think I should laugh and smile when they think I should smile. And when I don't laugh when they think they're compelling me to laugh,

I feel like they wanna kill me. And I am serious. There's like a, like that's where bodily autonomy starts, right? It's like laughter. That's why they're so scared of us laughing. It's like real laughter can't be compelled, right? Tears, it's like dance, music, orgasms,

like all of these things are where bodily autonomy starts and ends. So I'm working on the guy thing. If anyone knows any nice ones that I could start with, that'd be great. They're all here right now. What? They're all here. Yeah? They're all here.

Yeah, they're all here. That's right. All right, I think we actually have to get to that last question. We're running out of time. Okay, so I'm done with my gender. You got it? Is it clear?

Okay. Hi, I'm Marissa. And before I ask my question, I just wanted to say that I've always fully believed and felt in my heart that we are not supposed to live in society We're supposed to live in community. So I really appreciate this whole conversation My question is about forgiveness in relationships that have ended any kind of relationship Be it friendships family members or lovers

friendships, family members, or lovers, what is your process like to move on and forgive yourself when you can't forgive them? Hmm. This is another one. I called Glennon about this recently, didn't I? You could write a dissertation on forgiveness at this point. I think that's right. Well, I just think it's the most radical thing you can do is to forgive yourself and forgive someone else.

But it's hard because sometimes you can be in a fight with someone and they don't know you're in a fight with them. Yes. Even if they've done something so awful to you, they might not really see it. And then you sit here and it's a year later and you're like, ugh, I don't want to forgive them because it's a really negative energy in my life and I don't need it, it makes me a worse person. Forgiving them means allowing them to come back in.

And then, you know, forgiving yourself means that you would sort of move on from this person without telling them that you're in this world with them, where you're wounded or you're upset or you're angry or you're kind of fucking done even. But like there has to be, if they're alive and if there's a way for you to have a moment without any expectation of outcome to say what you're forgiving them for or what you think that they did to wrong you. If there's a way for you to do that and make yourself safe, I think you can really aid

in the forgiveness process of yourself. And then I think you can helpfully move on. And also, I don't know about the specific situation, so I don't want to encourage anything particularly dangerous for you, but also something may happen that would surprise you So if you can find a way to have a confrontation and hold on to yourself first Sky's the limit. I think you can go all the way to forgiveness all by yourself once you've done that And if you just can't you can do it anyway You can do it anyway

That's beautiful. And also, like, I think when we are judging a past version of ourself, we call it, I need to forgive myself. That's what we say to ourselves, because that's the language we have. But when you think about it, we're always just doing the best we can. So if a new version of you is looking back at an old version of you and something you did and say oh I wish I didn't do that, that's all that is is proof of growth. That's already, yeah. That's it. You're already better. That's done. Done and dusted as Abby would say. Done and dusted. Maybe I need to forgive

myself actually means I am awesome now. Yeah Right good I'm gonna do it I'm gonna say that I am awesome now Amazing I'm so much more amazing than I was before when I did that dumb thing. Look at me Amazing we got it. We got to go cuz we all have to get ready for ladies. So we really have to go though Listen thank you all for coming today and also from the bottom of our hearts we can do hard things We really appreciate you tuning in and listening to us week in and week out We love what we do and we're gonna keep doing it keep showing up and we're going to keep showing up for you. We'll see you next time here, Pod Squad. Thank you. We love you. We love you.

Before we go, before we end this beautiful episode, here's something that I want to say to all of you who have been part of Together Rising for so long. Together Rising has sunset and you all know that. And many of you have reached out to us and said, I trusted Together Rising for so long with my energy, with my funds to make the kind of difference in the world that I want to make and now I don't know what to do with that energy, with those funds. And we actually, as we sense at Together Rising, tried to connect you directly with many of the organizations

who do the kind of work that Together Rising did for so long. I wanna give you one more option. Catherine Carlyle and Brandy Carlyle run an incredible organization called the Looking Out Foundation, which I think aligns with Together Rising probably the most of any other organization I know in terms of intention, in terms of vision, in terms of who and how they see the world, tell the stories, and the change that they want to see.

It's the same change that Together Rising wants to see. Also, the woman who was an executive director for Together Rising, Gloria, now runs the Looking Out Foundation. So the leadership of Together Rising, one important part of the leadership of Together Rising, moved directly over to the Looking Out Foundation. It's just that the synergy between the two are undeniable. And I trust Gloria, Brandi and Catherine without hesitation.

So what I'm saying to you is if you are looking for another place to plug in to become a donor, consider looking at the Looking Out Foundation. You can get more information about the Looking Out Foundation at lookingoutfoundation.org. Check it out. Consider it. Abby and I trust it completely. Thanks, Pod Squad. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard

Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing

to give us a five-star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman,

and this show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner, and Bill Schultz.