We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Living by Your Own Original Music Instead of Crappy Cover Tunes

Episode Date: October 7, 2021

1. Why Glennon believes the bravest thing she’s ever done was marching into her counselor’s office in high school—and what made her finally say, “I’m not leaving until I get some help.” 2. How we can identify the difference between our Knowing versus our anxiety and conditioning. 3. Why Glennon describes herself as Dory from Nemo, and how she returned to meditation when her mind became unmanageable. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. Well, hello everybody. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. Thank you for coming back. We're thrilled every time you do. Hi, Amanda and Abby.

Hello, Glen and Kishman Doyle. Do people know your middle name? Kishman. Hi, I said it. Yeah, my name is Glen and Kishman Doyle. She looked up. She looked up like she didn't remember. She's like, oh yeah.

Like it was on like like a cucumber behind her. And her or something. Kishman Doyle, that's right. That's right. Well, I do have to do that stuff. I can do hard things, but not easy things. Like, remember my full name, or what age I am, Abby knows, that I have several times Googled how old I am.

I think it's so confused. I am 45. And my name is, right? Is that that's right? Correct. And my name is Glenin Kishman Doyle. My first name, Glenin, is my paternal grandmother's last name. Ruth Glenin.

Ruth Glenin. Ruth Glenin. And Kishman is my mother's maiden name. And Doyle is, we are both Doyles. We are. Amanda, even though we are both married, we are both Doyles. The second time that I got married, I realized I already had a goddamn last name, which I somehow didn't know.

The first time I got married. So anyway, I just kept my name. Yeah. So, and by the way, can I just say, we have to have a podcast on that. Yeah, it's interesting. Like unbelievable, continue. Sorry. Okay on that. Yeah, it's interesting. Like unbelievable, continue. Sorry. Okay. Yeah, it's really something. I will say a really cool thing that I just saw

that one of your Sockery people, Sam Mewis. Yeah. She got engaged, right? It's his Sam Mewis. Yeah, she's now married, but yeah. Okay, so she's married and her husband took her last name. That's right. Um, and you know, that sounds like so amazing and awesome and cool and wow until you think like, well, why is it a big deal? Because women always are taking their men's last name and nobody's like, oh, that's so kind of you, you know, um, but I just think it's cool.

Um, okay, so sister, Abbie and I have not talked to you for a few minutes. I know, I miss you. We miss you too. I just want our We Can Do Hard Things listeners to know that the reason we haven't talked in a few days is because a few days ago I decided with lots of help from my family that I needed to. How shall we say get my shit together a little bit? Process. Process maybe. I don't know what, I just, every so often,

I just start to not be fine. Just not be fine. It's the best way I can describe it. I don't, I, there was so much, so much going on in the world and Chase left for college and I wasn't processing any of it and I was just going and going and going. And the way I usually notice that I'm not fine is when I start saying I'm fine.

All the time, so when anyone asks me how I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. Do you know what's so cool is I was talking to Dina? Dina is our basically family. She helps us run this whole shebang. And she used to work with kids. Okay, before she came to work with us, she used to work with kids, same, same. So, she was telling me this thing that I thought was so cool.

How every time a kid falls down or hurts theirself or is sad or cries, what do we say to them? You're fine. You're fine. You're fine, you're fine. It's okay, you're fine, you're fine, you're fine. It's okay. You're fine. You're fine. You're fine. You're fine. And we train them to every time they're feeling something, to think I'm fine. I'm fine. And then we wonder why adults are constantly saying every time they feel not fine, they say, I'm fine. That's so funny.

What if we, I mean, it's so true. If he is fine, it's actually not. You're yellow. You're yellow. Like it's equally arbitrary. Exactly. How are you doing? We're yellow.

We're yellow. How are you? It means nothing. It means nothing. If fine, I'm fine. It's not a feeling. It's not, but isn't that wild? Think about that we're actually trained?

That's just funny. I know, but I never say that. I never, ever, ever say that. You don't say your friends. When you said, what do we say to kids? I literally didn't know what you're saying. I always say, did that hurt you or did that scare you? That's good.

That's good. Because half the time they're just like, it scared me. It scared me. It scared me. It scared me. That's like, Because half the time they're just like, it's scared me. It's scared me. It's scared me. That's like, Win Tish. Oh my God. Oh yes.

Win Tish went down in the soccer field once. She went down hard, y'all. She went down hard. And she was down for a while. And everybody was nervous. And the coach went over and talked to her, leaned over her. Then they all go back to the bench, everybody claps. The coach texts us. Okay, this is not a coach thing to do. But she needed to tell us the story so bad that she texts us on the sideline from the bench

because she says she has leaned over to Tish and said, what hurts the most? Like she's trying to isolate the pain, right? Like where it is in her body. She goes, what hurts the most? And Tish and said, what hurts the most? Like she's trying to isolate the pain, right? Like where it is in her body, she goes, what hurts the most? And Tish opens her eyes and says, my dignity. That's kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the story, my life. So anyway, I was saying I'm fine a lot,

and I was feeling overwhelmed by thoughts and feelings and I realized I need to, I've hit like some sort of rock bottom, okay. And my eating was getting weird again and I feel like I- I would say your thoughts about eating. Exactly. Not eating. Exactly. Exactly. It's like, I've been recovering from eating disorders since I was 10 or however you want to say that situation.

But I still, when things get stressful or weird, I still have unbelievably compulsive thoughts about food and body. It's just, I had hit rock bottom again with thoughts about food and body. It's just, it's, I had hit rock bottom again with thoughts about eating and food. And then I start thinking about things more. And actually I decided I had hit rock bottom with all thinking. Like, my life, you know, what you, we say in, in, when we're recovering from alcoholism, we decide our life has become unmanageable. I truly got to the point where I was like, oh, my thinking has become completely unmanageable. I live with a maniac in my brain. It's not just the food, it's everything. The person in my

mind is insufferable. The person in my mind is insufferable. It's just the person in my mind is upset about everything. And I'm not talking about just the things it should be like, you know, the things in the world, the things I am actively involved in in activism. I wish I could tell you that the things I'm always upset about are political things. They often are, they're also everything else. Mm-hmm. In my how, in my, it's just like, it's whatever the opposite of toxic positivity is. Yes, yes, yes.

It's like just manic and chronic, everything's intolerable. Yes, and if I, I'm telling you, if this person, sometimes I can think, I can listen to the voices in my head I I'm telling you if this person sometimes I can think I can listen to the Voices in my head and I can think if this person came up to me on the street And talk to me the way my head is talking to me right now. I would Be so disgusted appalled. I would be scared. I would assume this person needed help I would think this person was completely paranoid,

was completely like, and yet this is the girl that I live with all the days. And so I started talking to Abby and okay, so I had this epiphany and I'm going to say it and it's going to sound so ridiculous and simple to you. But that's like what they always are to me. I'm like, Dory from Nemo, like I figure things out and then I forget. And then it feels like an epiphany meet to me when I remember six months later. So I think I've spent so much time figuring out, trying to decide how do I get this voice in my head to stop obsessing about food and body. How do I change my thinking?

Okay, and it's not going to work. I'm just telling you, the part of me that's given up is not wrong. Okay, I'm not giving up becoming more peaceful, but I'm giving up my previous strategy, which was to some kind, somehow change or control my thoughts, okay? Not gonna happen. So then I started thinking, okay, if I can't change my thoughts, then I have to freaking do that damn thing that everyone who's smart is always telling us to do, which is meditate, which I've done before in my life, and it has fixed me before, but then I forget and stop doing

it, and then I lose it again. Because meditation is remembering that you actually are not your thoughts. So it's not trying to control and change them. It's dropping below them like you're the ocean. And there's always going to be these crazy waves on the top, which are these thoughts and thoughts and thoughts, but that there's a place that you can be safe from yourself if you sink below them and just look up and say, oh, there are those waves again, but I'm down here.

I wouldn't say that it's like being safe from yourself. I would say it's just like to be with yourself. Like all of it is same. Like your thoughts are still there. Your, like all of it is still you, your body, your consciousness, your physical body. And it's the same. And honey, I think the realization of what you are, you are inherently a philosopher. You study, you read, you are

conscious, you're in the world. You are like one of the, the smartest people I've ever met. And so, and you've been affirmed with your thinking. Mine. You've been affirmed with the thoughts that you have in the books that you write, your number one New York Times bestseller

with this podcast and the way that you produce it. And create, like there are so many things in your life that have affirmed the thinking you and the thought you. And I think what we are learning is that there is also suffering that goes into the extraordinary amount that you then think about all the other components to your life. And I think what we've learned is we can't think through some of these things.

Some of them can, but we can't think through all of them. It's at the neglect of, it's like with so much focus, you are your mind, you are not exclusively your mind. Right? It's like sometimes living there and never occupying the other things that are just as much inherent to who you are like your body and your soul and your all of that is, it's important to be all of them. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's like, it's a good time. It's like a disco party with flashing lights and, and raging music and like, so it's good to stop in, but like not a good, the my,

my mind is not a good place to live all the time. So, so anyway, I'm telling you, I'm just saying saying it out loud that I am starting the meditation thing again. Okay. And I'm going to try to find a way to just live with a little more peace. That's my goal. I want to stay engaged in the world and my relationships and be okay with imperfection, but also because we just have this one life. And I want to be able to live it with some measure of peace and joy also. So, that's what I'm doing.

I just wanted to say it. I'm doing the meditation. And so far, it's been a frickin nightmare, okay? I just sit there, because it's like sobriety or something. It's like it's just really hard at first and you're so out of touch with any measure of peace that it's very hard to start again, but I'm going to stick with that. Well, can I just say one thing too? You also have created beautiful, beautiful worlds inside of yourself, beautiful worlds that you live among.

And sometimes what's going on inside your head is more interesting and more beautiful than what is actually going on out here. So I think it's gonna be even harder for you because you are this creative artist and philosopher that have this beautiful thing going on inside of you, but I think in order to manage all of that, being able to find some stillness, I mean, look, I don't think I've had one moment of quiet during the five days that we've been

meditating. Literally. I'm just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, oh, there's a thought. There's a thought. So I just think it's admirable. It's heroic what you're trying to do because I know how much you value your own in our world. So I just think it's really, really cool.

And there is a letting go of control here that I know is gonna be really tough. Aw, thank you. Thank you. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs.

And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them.

She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now.

Wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, let's jump into our cues from our pod squad. I love hearing from them so much. Do we have a voice no first? We do we do. My name is Alexandra. Hi, I'm Glenin and Abby and sister. Glenin was talking about how she almost didn't go

to the event where she ended up eating Abby and how she called sister and ended up going. And I know in her books, she talks a lot about finding your inner knowing and listening to it. How can you tell the difference between anxiety and your intuition and your inner knowing and what you need in your body or just just anxiety thoughts. I don't know, I don't know whether that was anxiety or something else I don't mean to reject,

but it's got me thinking about this question. Anyway, it felt like a hard question and I thought it was worth calling you asking about. Thanks. I also have Alexandra's questions. Yes, I also do. Someone, please. I mean, seriously. Sandra.

It is like, all the voice is so strong, but I feel I feel like this has something to do with what you were talking about on the last brave episode about the deepest knowing is unexplainable and can't be put into words and it's just almost like a gravity or it's like for me anxiety my anxiety voice is always a voice. Okay, it has so many words. My anxiety voice is always words. It's it's arguing with me. It's this, this, this, this, but but this, it's but this, it's a million fears, it's a million reasons, it's defenses, it's, it's, um, and my knowing has no words. And so how do I explain to you in words, something that has no words? I don't think I have to because you probably already know what I mean. It's just like, it's the thing below the words that already knows what to do, but your anxious mind's trying to talk you out

of the thing that you know to do. And we can just choose to live in our anxiety mind for years and ignore the knowing. And that's where all of our problems come, right? Like the, Abby and I always talk about all of our life is trying to like shorten the distance between the knowing and the doing. Because everything between the knowing and the doing is all the anxiety that's trying to talk us into not doing the thing we know to do. So there's that. And then

there's this whole other side that I thought of when Alexander was asking that question, which is that I thought of when Alexander was asking that question, which is this idea of intuition. Like if we're always following how we feel, how do we know? Okay, here's what I wanna give you this scenario. What about we're walking down the street, I'm a white woman, and I'm walking down the street. I'm a white woman and I'm walking down the street. And two black men and hoodies are walking towards me. Okay. And I feel scared.

So they do something, you know, something human who knows, they just are walking, being black maybe. And I feel scared, so I called the police, right? What I will say to you and what these, what continues happening is the person to call the police, the white woman says, well, I was afraid, I'm not racist, I was afraid. And the question, the next question becomes, well, what if that fear is racist itself? Yes, you were afraid. But the reason you're afraid is because we've been conditioned in this drenched in these ideas that black men are dangerous.

Like, how do we know what is our real knowing and what is just our conditioning? Like I have I've been conditioned to be afraid of black men. Why wouldn't I be afraid of what I've only been hurt in my life by white men? If I'm going by my experience, the only people who have ever hurt me are white men and white women. So then why am I more afraid, my instinct to be afraid of two black men and hoodies, that's because of my conditioning. What if our intuition is racist and misogynist? And you know, what if I can't trust myself sometimes

because that woman starts talking and is bold and ambitious and my first response is, I don't like her. That is not the self that I want to be trusting. So, I guess I'm not sure that I have a perfect answer for that. I just know that I had a friend say to me recently, you know, it took me 45 years to start trusting myself. And now I figured out that myself is racist and misogynist and Islam phobic and like, there's another level of examining our reactions, right?

Our knee jerk reactions and questioning them. I think we have to keep questioning until we get to the route that is not just conditioned. So good. And it's not just this kind of systemic bias that is through us. It's also, you know, all of our own histories and our traumas and our fears that are so internalized in us that they sound exactly like our own voice. You know, repeating, it's definitely coming from you. But is it for you? It's like for me, I feel like we need to do a trauma episode

because there is so much that our body stores, literally stores in us in terms of like, unprocessed stress and memories and these patterns that we keep repeating. And for me, it's, I feel like, I feel like it's just like all the time the voice is screaming at me, but it's like, it's just like shitty covers of tired songs. It's not my original work, right? So I think that it's like, is that a cover of a song you've heard before,

or is that original songwriting from you? It's like, I love that. I love that. I love that so much. I think like, I mean, it's so good. It feels to me because when I feel myself having to decide between my anxious mind or like the mean self, I think what would my five year old self sound like?

Like down the road. And that gives me a lot of insight, right? And also, Glenn and something that we owe, and I think we've told the listeners this before, if you're having like a trying to figure this out, I would say get into your body instead of your mind and feel into what feels more warm or cold. That's something that we actually are teaching our children so that we don't actually, because then we're just victims to our mind and who the fuck is that? Who is our guy? Some mess in there. Is it our best self or is it this cover band we talk of?

Yes, it's just a bunch of covers. I'm obsessed with that metaphor. It's just a bunch of covers. It's like, you know, recently somebody said to us, you know, I just, I want to, you know, embrace the gay community. It just, it just feels wrong to me. Like I can't get around how much wrong it feels. And now, of course this person was raised in the evangelical church. Like that, that's not God putting that in her.

It's like this cover that's playing over and over again from the church. But bless her, she thinks that she was born feeling that. And she's correct that it is in her. Like that's the difference. Like you can't just say everything from inside of you is of you. No.

It's very, yeah. Yeah, there's work. There's all kinds of work to be done there tragically. I just want to ask because we ended the last episode where you asked everyone as their next right thing to say the bravest thing they've ever done. But you neither of you told us your bravest thing. Well, I think like my knee jerk

would always be about like the second part of my life, the work or the marrying Abby or the publicly divorcing or any of that, but I actually don't. I think the bravest thing I ever did was in high school. So I was, let's see, I think I was a senior in high school I was a senior in high school, which means that I had been severely believing at that point for, let's see, 10, 11, 12, like six years or something, six or seven years. And I was holding a tray walking into the cafeteria or walking out of the line.

Remember the lunch lines like you do you get your food. And I was standing there with my tray, my plastic tray, looking out at the cafeteria, the high school cafeteria. Now, what you need to know about my high school cafeteria, which sister knows, but it was ginormous. We our school had like 6,000 kids in it or something. It was ginormous. Our school had like 6,000 kids in it or something. And so the high school cafeteria was just massive. And I don't know if there's anything in the world that scares me more than a high school cafeteria.

I just think that it's like the pit of hell to me. It's like all of the horrifying vulnerability, just intertwining like, who are you, social stuff? Like, who are you gonna sit with? Like, where is anyone gonna want you at their table? Like, the cool kids, the juxtaposed, the whatever, like the social drama of it, and then like the lights in the cafeteria.

It's just like so bright, like there's no hiding anything. It's just all, you're just standing there and all of your selfness while everyone just looks at you holding your tray of food, which you're gonna have to somehow in this insanely vulnerable situation, eventually put in your mouth of food, which you're going to have to somehow in this insanely vulnerable situation, eventually put in your mouth and chew, which is like so human and terrifying.

And it's just all like high school. It's just, oh, so I actually used to often, and my kids feel so sad when I talk about this, but I used to actually sometimes take my tray into the bathroom just because just it was too much, just just the cafeteria was too much. So I would just take my tray into the bathroom, eat, throw up, whatever. So I'm sitting in the bathroom. No, I never made it to the bathroom that day. I'm standing in the cafeteria, having this moment of hell. And I'm just like, fuck this. The senior in high school, I take my tray. I walk to the guidance counselor's office. I don't think I'd ever been there before.

I knock on her door, I walk and I put my tray on her desk and I said, I have a mental problem. And I can't be here anymore. I need to go somewhere else. Like I can't do life like this anymore. I'm not, and I remember saying, like I can't do life like this anymore. I'm not, and I remember saying, I'm not leaving here until somebody helps me. Like I can't be at this place anymore.

And I don't know like what chain of events happens, happen next, I just remember refusing to leave. And then I remember mom and dad showing up at the school and taking me to the mental hospital. That is so fucking great. I mean, I am not leaving here until I get the help I need. This, I'm not gonna live like this anymore. I mean, you could pretty much put like 90%

of the brave things in the world into one of those two camps. Yes. I am not gonna live like this anymore. And I am not leaving here. Yeah. Until I get the help that I need or if I don't get the help I need, I'm definitely going to leave here. Yes, exactly. That's exactly it, right? And by the way, this counselor, I'm like, I'm 16 or whatever. I don't freaking know what that help is.

That's your job. Right. Perennial unit. Y'all can pay their salary. How three of you? Between mom and dad and y'all, you should be able to figure this out. I'm going to take my milk carton. I'll be in the other room.

Exactly. That's how I felt. And also, it was the first big I cannot emphasize enough, the importance of this part of it. So much of my life has been like, no to this. Like it was my first big quit. Like yes, I am now a senior, I have been doing this thing for a long time. I understand that everyone else seems to think that this is normal. This way of life.

This Lord of the Flies high school situation. Everyone seems I've been playing your reindeer games for a long ass time now. Yeah, but just because it's common doesn't mean it's normal. It's good. I think I heard Ashley Ford say that recently. I think it was Ashley Ford. I mean, it's normal. I think I heard Ashley Ford say that recently. I think it was Ashley Ford. Just because everyone's doing it

doesn't mean it's sane or normal. So it was my first, the bravery of it for me was like, I don't care if this is working for everyone else. Like that no longer matters to me. What I'm telling you is that it is not working for me. It's good. So like maybe the mental hospital will be better. Like that is that and PS it was. Okay, but it was my first big

quit of I'm not doing it the way y'all are doing it anymore. And even those of you who are pretending to be the boss of me, well, that you're just, I'm sitting here and I'm not leaving. Yes, yes, I'm not, I'm not gonna be making this convenient for you anymore. Like I'm gonna be very inconvenient right now. You had your own, I'm sitting. I know. Yes, I did, it was my sitting babe, it was. And it was like, I don't know, I bet that's not gonna look good for your own. I know. And I know. Yes, I did. It was my sit-in, babe. It was.

And it was like, I don't know. I bet this is not going to look good for your school. If there's a 16-year-old who keeps yelling that she needs to go to the next. It'll scare. I mean, do you think that's what it boils down to? Do you think that brave is just acting as if you are the expert of you. That like you, and that's why it doesn't have to be,

it doesn't have to look like monumental to any damn body else. It's just like these can be these little things that are like, even imperceptible to others, but you're like this yes to this thing, no to this thing. Like I am the expert of me and I know. Yes. And I'm not going to adjust myself anymore to fit into your way for right now. You're all going to adjust to what I'm telling you. Or don't. But I don't gonna just to what I'm telling you. Or don't, but I don't. This is what I'm doing.

Right, but when you're a child, it's like, I had those resources, right? Like I had, I was in a public school that had counselors. I had parents who would show up. Like the thing that makes it so impossible to be brave when you're a child is that you can be yourself and nobody can freaking adjust and you're just screwed. But that happens to adults all the

damn time. Yeah. How many marriages are you sitting around? Like I'm miserable. Surely they'll know it. Like as many people are listening to this saying, why did it take Glennon to have to go into that counselor's office and get the hope she needed. Why didn't her parents come help her? Great question. Also, how many of our years have I sat in a marriage going? I'm pretty sure I seem miserable enough. Surely, surely he's gonna notice and start doing the things that need to be done. Surely he's gonna like, no, we are the only experts at us. We are the ones responsible for us.

We are the ones who require the words to be said, here's what I need. Here's what I need no more of. Here's, here's what I am doing next. You can come this way or not, but here's what I know about me. That's good. Brave is being believing in being that you are the expert of yourself and your own needs and wants. That's amazing.

Yes. Yes. Okay. Brave had squad. It is time to move on to our Pod Squad of the week. This is one of our favorite parts you have to know. We go through so many of your stories and we actually wish we could choose 50 Pod Squadders of the week. But today's is our friend Charlene. Babe, can you read Charlene's letter to us? It's so fantastic.

Oh gosh, we love Charlene. All right, dear Glennon, Amanda, and Abby. Hello, amazing ladies. I want to thank you for this amazing podcast and the work and love that has gone into creating this community. I listen to your podcasts on my drive to work, and sometimes before bed. I realized I missed your episode on queer freedom,

and I'm laying in bed listening to the glorious words and want to share my decision to no longer be a member of my church. Hallelujah to that sister. I have a sister too. One that I have loved my whole life, but our relationship has never been steady. We have budded heads over the years and for so long she seemed distant. We never seemed to be meeting each other where we already were. Then, last year things changed. My sister called me to tell me about her girlfriend. I had never heard my sister this happy in my 29 years on this earth. When I saw them together, it just made sense. nine years on this earth. When I saw them together, it just made sense. This was who my sister was, no hiding, no masks. She had never seemed more comfortable with herself. Her being

the bravest Chita I knew in her being her true authentic self brought my sister back to me. So I'm laying here listening to your podcast about how you decided to walk away from your church to make sure your children were not tarnished by their opinions. My husband and I wanted to have kids in the next few years and all I can think is how can I encourage my future children to be members of a church that would close the door on their amazing aunt. If I keep staying as a member, I'm sitting and saying nothing, and hope something will change. Out of guilt to parents and community, I've stayed a member, but I realize tonight exactly what you said, Glenin.

The church is not God. I'm not walking away from God. God is always with me. I am just leaving the building. The building will not define my future or my children's future. The building no longer has the power to encourage homophobia and hatred in my family. Thank you for the work you do.

You inspire so many and all my love to you and your families. Oh my gosh! Charlene! Baby, baby Charlene, your favorite now? Yes, can you call, I wanna just send her my number. Be Charlene. Be Charlene.

Okay, that's so fantastic. And also, I just wanna read this one real quick. This is from Becky. Dear Glennon's sister, Abby, I've listened to your queer freedom in the church episode no less than 10 times. My husband has listened a few times too. I've had all those feelings for so long but did not know how to articulate them. Thank you for giving me the words. My next right thing was scheduling a meeting with my pastor to ask some tough questions. I asked him to listen to the podcast and we're going to talk about it.

I refuse to be a stone-thrower, let poison sink into my child, and be in a place that lets homophobia live. We can do hard things. Oh, I can't. I just want to, you know, point out the different approaches, but both brave and beautiful, from Charlene and Becky, you know,

one left, the institution, one is challenging the institution from within and both are such brave, beautiful decisions. Love. So great. Becky, Charlene, you're our favorites this week. Let us go forth, pod squatters and be like Becky and be like Becky, and be like Charlene, and be ourselves. Let's be brave. Let's sit in the, what did we call it, lonely clarity? Let's live this week as if we are the experts of our own selves and our own lives. And thank God we can do hard things because that will be hard.

We love you. We'll see you next week. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts. Especially, be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.

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