We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Liz Gilbert on Loving Without Losing Yourself

Episode Date: September 11, 2025

443. Liz Gilbert on Loving Without Losing Yourself  Glennon and Liz Gilbert go deeper into Liz’s relationship with Rayya, into the tender, messy, miraculous place where caring for someone else pushes hard against caring for yourself. They talk about the quiet traps of codependency, the heartbreak of giving away your power, and the transformative freedom that comes when you turn to a higher voice for guidance. Listen to the first part of our conversation here. About Elizabeth: Elizabeth Gilbert is the author of nine previous works of fiction and nonfiction, which collectively have sold more than 25 million copies worldwide, spent more than 250 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list, and been translated into more than fifty languages.  She has been a finalist for the National Book Award, the National Book Critics Circle Award, and the PEN/Hemingway Award. With more than 20 million views of her TED Talk and 2.7 million followers on her social media accounts, she continues to be one of the most beloved and influential writers of our age.. Her new memoir: ALL THE WAY TO THE RIVER: Love, Loss, and Liberation is available now.

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conversation with our beloved friend, Liz Gilbert, trust me, go back and start there. Because today, we're going to keep going deeper into Liz's relationship with Reya, into the tender, messy, miraculous place where caring for someone else can push hard against the need to care for yourself. We talk about the quiet traps of codependency, the heartbreak of giving away all of your power, and the freedom that comes when you turn to a higher voice for guidance. Thank you, Liz, for this gift, for your honesty, for your heart, your courage, and for sharing with us the story of you and Raya. Let's jump back in. Okay, say God is speaking. How would God describe

your part in creating? How does a love addict and a sex addict create the very trauma and drama that they are saying is ruining their life? I abdicate my power. So I abdicate my power. So I I want to talk about the word power. So one of the most beautiful things I ever heard anybody in recovery say was, I love this. She said, I am loved beyond measure by a God who has given me power over practically nothing. Let me say it again. I am loved beyond measure by a God who has given me power over practically nothing. but that tiny little margin of power, control, and will that I have been given, it's essential that I use it well

and that I use it only in sacred and good ways, not good in a moralistic way, but toward the creation of light, right? It's a tiny, tiny, tiny little measure of control that I have, right? So what I do in my addiction is I take the teeny tiny but incredibly sacred margin of power that I have over my life and I hand it to you. And I'm like, now you're in power over me. I'm giving you this. You have all the power over me now. So now my focus is entirely on you and whatever you want, I will serve. Whatever you say, I will do. Right. So I'm voluntarily, I mean, I remember the tremendous, strange, almost like, this is probably what heroin feels like, feeling that I had when I left my marriage and I came to be with Rea and she was dying.

And I was like, my purpose in life is so clear now. My only job is to serve her every need. Right. And this relief of like, I don't have to think. I don't have to feel. I don't have to make decisions. This incredibly powerful person is dying and I am her servant. and no one would begrudge me for giving her everything and doing everything for her

because she has such a very, very, very short time to live. And God was like, we're not going to make it such a short time. Because I want you to see what happens when you do that even for a short time. Because I was like, well, I can give all my power to somebody who's only got six months to live. And God's like, you're going to let her live a little while longer so that you can see the same thing will happen as always happens. You will have a complete and utter degradation of your sacredness. right so what i can't do is anything like that you know i can't do anything like that so a way i've seen it described as a sort of chart is that love addiction and codependency is this reversal of

the natural and healthy and sacred order of things so what it looks like is that i let's say i'm love addicted to you i make you the most important thing in the entire universe i come second and divinity and sacredness are last. They don't even exist anymore. It's just me and you. There is no rest of the world, which is what I always wanted. It's like, let's just go into a bedroom, shut the door, turn off all the phones, and there is no world. There is no world. There is no universe. There is nothing but you. And I'm going to dive into you and eat, pray love. I even described it as diving into someone the way like a circus high diver in a cartoon dives off a high dive into a small glass of water. I'm just going to pour, just going to dive into you completely so that I do not

have to be and I do not have to feel and I do not have to suffer. Right. So recovery looks like you turn that around where it's like divinity is first. Like God is first. Honoring the sacred is first. Turning your will in your life over to the care of a higher power. Finding that, listening to that, getting guidance from that, anchoring yourself in that. Your day begins there. Every minute of uncertainty you're like, you look above and within like what is the right action here. How can I be of service? What do you want me to do? And then and then you come second and then other people are last, which is shocking to even say. Shocking. It feels like we're going to get in trouble. Right. And what makes a narcissistic sort of codependent relationship so

perfect to the evil complement of each other is that a drug addict and an alcoholic's ego is always me first. You know, it's me, me, me, me, me. And that's why when drug addicts and alcoholics come into recovery, they're told instantly to start serving. It's like put coffee out, you know, hand out pamphlets, put chairs together because you are so selfish. Like, you are so self-centered. You need to get out of yourself and you need to serve. But the codependent who serves the addict, their recovery is stop serving and take care of yourself. We don't know how to take care of ourselves. Like, that's why we're just constantly looking for a narcissistic, kind of charismatic, sparkly person to pour ourselves into community. You know?

And so when I work with people in my program, it's like, we're going to make a list of things that you can do today that are beneficial for you. You know, and they're like, oh, I can't do. You know, like, they're like, I don't have time. You know? But all these people I have to check on today. I have these people are going to take care of. I'm like, I don't have time. And it's like you don't have time to go for a 10-minute walk in the sun by yourself.

You know, it's like this restoration of your own dignity, this restoration of your own sovereignty, right? And then from that place, you begin to heal. And then you begin to see things that you used to do and be like, I wrote a love song for Rea. We have a video of it called Banished Immortal. We played it at her memorial that I was like, this is the most beautiful love sign that was ever written in the whole time of your universe. And it's interesting because in the video when she's singing, she's so hot. But anyway, like, and I'm like, she's so beautiful and I wrote this love song for her. And in the song, I say, I'm just trying to give you, it just hurts my soul to even say these words.

I'm trying to give you a home. My body and life are your own. Oh, God. Yeah. And I'm looking at that now and I'm like, oh, honey, you can't be somebody's home. and my body and life are my own that were given to me by God to have this experience here on earth and not to be given to anyone under any circumstances for them to make into their home. Yeah.

Because it's not, it's, okay, if you're listening and you're thinking, but service is good. That's not service. It's not service because... That's servitude. Yes. And it's also, okay, if you're serving someone the way that you're describing it, just think of it as what's the intention. It's not actually for the other person. It's because you're getting something out of it, right?

There's a different energy going into this sort of service. Yes. So if you're a person who gives so that that person then thanks you, so that that person then gives you the high that you need to make you feel gives you your esteem that you cannot generate and then that because that sort of giving always ends in anger right only always only 100% talked about that yes that is you were that's where the martyrdom comes in right that's where the martyring mothering managing always leads to rage always you know the i write in there the the anthem of the exhausted codependent is, after all I did for you, I spent like years after

Raya died, like alternating between this tremendous grief at having lost her and this tremendous rage at what she took, you know, like what she took without gratitude, right? Where's my thanks? I almost died for you. Where's my thanks? You know, it's my thanks. You know, it's It's like, ugh. How would a recovered Liz, Liz now, have handled Rea? Like, how would that love story had gone, had you known what you know now, about you being your home and her being her home? Well, it would start with this. the way that we moved over the edge from the very first after 10 years of knowing each

other from we are friends to I will save you because the codependency two step is I will save you and then you will save me right that's the deal that's the contract so that so that the ideal is just cutting out the middleman like instead of I will save you and you will save me 100% is I will save me and how about I trust that you that you have the capacity to save you. Yeah. Um, which I have a lot of trouble believing, same. Um, because I don't think anybody can save themselves unless I save them. So, so what that would look like is here's where the, when I, when I do this sort of post-mortem, literal, literal post-mortem kind of like, a lot of this book is sort of a detective story. It's an emotional detective story where I'm like,

what, how did this happen? Where did it start, right? And of course, it's so much easier to see it when you can slow it down and look at it in the past then when it's happening when you're doing it below the level of consciousness. But I got an email one day from a mutual friend of Reyes back when we were just social acquaintances that said, it was a group email that said Raya Elias is having a really tough time right now. She just had knee surgery. Her body isn't healing. She's in a lot of pain. She's really depressed. She needs her friends. I'm just sending, like this person was like, I'm just sending this message out. So for a codependent like me, that's a dog whistle. Yes. I'm like, I am ready. Hark! You know, there's a line I quote, my uncle told

me this. My uncle's in recovery, and he told me this line, and I love it. And I quote it in the book that says, how you kill a codependent. You put them in a round, empty windowless room, and you tell them there's someone sitting in the corner who's suffering who needs their help. And then you watch them run themselves to death trying to find it. It's like, where's that person? Where's that person who's suffering who needs my help? So I got that message and I get high off of my belief that I can provide that safety for you.

So at the time, I had this old church that I had bought and renovated that my ex-husband and I weren't living in anymore that I wanted to turn into an artist residency, noble, beautiful idea. I still want to do this. It's something that I still love the idea of. But what I did was I was like, you can come and stay here, but it was boundaryless. It was like, you can come and stay here forever. You can come and stay in my house for free.

You can come and stay here forever. And I remember, and I write about it in the book, her coming out there that day, we didn't know each other that well. You know, and she was standing in the middle of this beautiful old church, weeping. And she was like, why are you giving this to me? She said that. Why would you give this? You don't even know me.

You know, like, why are you giving this to me? And like, oh, my God, I was so high on that. I'm, like, watching her cry. I'm watching her gratitude. I'm watching her be overwhelmed with, like, the world can be a place of kindness and not just a place of suffering. It's like, oh, this is so good. And I get to be the one who says, I am giving this to you because I'm such a good person.

I mean, I didn't say that. But I was like, I'm giving this to you because you deserve it and because you should have this note. She was deserving of safety and love at home. But if I were to get a message like that today in the mail from somebody saying this person is suffering and they need, they need us, they're having a tough time and they need us, I'm not sure I would give them a home. Right. You literally gave her a home. Like what you just talked about.

I'm just trying to give you a home. My body and life are your own. And I would love to say this is the only time I've ever done this. What does the future hold for business? Ask nine experts and you'll get 10 answers. Bull market, bare market. Rates will rise or fall. Inflation, up or down.

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masterclass.com slash hard things. That's 15% off at Masterclass.com slash hard things. Masterclass.com slash hard things. So I have since, in the last year since coming into recovery, been in situations where people who I loved and cared about were struggling. And I'm like, I must save them. And it's like, it's like trying to hold back a dog sled. You know, it's like trying to hold that urge in me is so enormous. And I remember like one of my sponsors, early sponsors, being like, I'm not going to be able to work with you if you bail this person out. You know, I'm like, I, and I'm, and, you know, I can come up with all

sorts of reasons why it's my job to save this person. I'm like, the world's not fair. They didn't have the advantages that I have. Like, they need a home. Their kids should be going to a better school. They should be, you know, it's like, I've got it. I've got it. And she was like, do you believe that they have their own higher power? And I'm like, no, obviously not. I am their higher power. Do you believe that they have the resources to find their own solution in life. I had a therapist one day sit up. She was like, Liz, sit up, look at me.

I need to ask you a question. I really, she's just like laughing. She's like, I really need to know, just tell me the truth. Are you aware that people can take responsibility for their own lives? And I was like, no. I have no experience with seeing this. Are you therapist? Why do you have such a good business?

This is what I said. And I was like, and I just said, on what basis are you saying this? Like, what evidence do you have to support this? I see no evidence of this. Right, right, right. And she said, I have years of evidence to see this. I have years of evidence of watching people decide to take full accountability for their own journey. Yes.

And to take complete responsibility for their own lives. And I was like, she said, there's a difference between can and will. But she said, everybody can decide to take full responsibility for their own lives. It doesn't mean they will, but they can. And I was like, surely not everybody. And she's like, everybody. But do you think that you were resisting that so much because that would mean that you had to do that? Bingo. Because it's, you're like, but if the reason, because this is at the core of it, right, the reason I am trying to, control, meet everyone else's needs is because I have no freaking idea how to meet my own needs

or live my own life. Right? You nailed it. You got it in one. Okay. So when I first came into my rooms of recovery in the relationship rooms and the solution that was given to me was you're going to need to learn how to take care of yourself. I was like, no thank you. I have been told that since the day I was born, and I want somebody to take care of me. Okay, so tell me why you may have been a human being who was particularly reactive to somebody saying, take care of yourself. Yes. So the family system in which I was raised prized self-reliance above all other virtues. And my mother, I think she would agree with this, her probably her biggest fear would be to raise a child who is dependent upon anybody for anything because

her experience of the world is that no one will ever help you. And so it was like you will learn how to take care of yourself. How my system reacted to that is I am alone and no one will ever help me. And who's got me? I'm too young to know how to do these things. I don't know how to do these things. I'm scared there's no net. There's no, there's no net here. And so I write in the book and so I set out upon my lifelong journey to make other people into my home. Will you be my safe home? Right. So I sort of was already exhausted from trying to figure out how to take care of myself and not knowing how. So, and then I'm doubly exhausted from taking care of everyone so that they'll take care of me. So I really resisted that when I came into the rooms. I'm like,

no, no, no. And I had this amazing spiritual moment where I said to the God of my understanding, if I'm very good and I promise to be a straight-a student and to do the steps in my program exactly the way I'm told and to come to the meetings every day and to just be the best at this, will you give me one more great love story? And God said, I promise you no such thing. will you still come with me? Do you have the courage to come with me with no promise of cash and prizes at the end of this journey? Will you just see where this journey takes you?

Will you just come with me and put that down? Will you put that down? That is my oldest fantasy and my oldest drug. And God was like, put it all the way down. Like don't put it down, but still keep it kind of behind your back in the life. little secret is my little secret thing. Like put it down. What I heard was put it on the divine fire and don't reach back in and take it out. Like that's what I think every addict has to do in order to get well is like I'm offering this as a sacred offering. I'm giving the universe this thing

that I do. I'm putting it on the divine fire. So addiction is in the book you say addiction is giving up everything for one thing. Yes. And what you're doing here is you're giving up one thing for everything. But it's my thing. You know what I mean? Yes. A lot of us would keep our one thing as opposed to everything. Another beautiful thing I once heard someone share in the room about love addiction and sex addiction was that she said like, I got so good at this thing. You know, it was like I poured everything in my life into becoming attractive, sexual, charismatic, compelling, being able to pull and draw people in, being able to, especially men, being able to manipulate men with sexuality, becoming the best lover, the most exciting, like, this was my thing, you know?

And she said, and I was expert at it, and it became like this giant redwood that I grew, that I was this, this was my thing. And she's like, when I took it down, there was this devastation of losing the giant redwood, but this whole giant forest landscape grew up of all sorts of other things. lakes and rivers and bushes and flowers and birds and like you know meadows and it's like oh there's so many other things besides this one thing you know so so god's like give me the thing and don't ask for it back and I did and what I've gotten back is this vast landscape of so many everything's like my creativity has bloomed I can I never thought I would have a shame free day

Glennon. Like, I don't have shame-free days at the moment. I mean, I don't have shame days at the moment. I, my friendships have blossomed. I was like, oh, holy moly, I have these extraordinary women in my life who have been friends of mine for decades who have just gotten like 2% of my attention because all of my attention was going into my relationship, whatever my central relationship was. And I'm like, Margaret, you were there the whole time. Jenny, you were were there the whole time, Cree, like all these people. I'm like, you people are incredible. Like, I didn't even notice. Like, I loved you, but like, I was so obsessed. You know, like, I was so obsessed in these dramas that I couldn't even see you. Like, I used to have a raft

of professionals taking care of my mental, physical, and spiritual health. A lot of people getting paychecks for me. Like therapists, doctors, hormone doctors, shamans, plant medicine, Like all of it. It's like it took a village to keep me alive, right? I don't need their services today. You know, like I don't need sleeping pills. I don't need antidepressants. I don't need anti-anxiety medication. I gave up my thing that was answering all of that. And God was like, you're fine without that thing. Like, you are fine without that thing. And your service now is not rescuing people. Your service is telling people how you rescued yourself. Cool. Like, that's your service. And, like, it's so important for me when I'm a sponsor to be, like, to be really clear with my

sponsor is, like, we're not going to replace your love addiction with Liz addiction. Like, you're not, I'm not your higher power. Like, I am not going to be your answer. You're going to come to me for answers and I'm going to tell you to ask God. and you're going to find it, and you're going to find it within you, and then you're going to have the answer. I'm just going to keep, and I'm going to tell you my own stories about what I did, but I'm not going to tell you what to do. Like, it's a bottom line behavior for me to give advice. It's like that moment in that you talk about with Rea, where she actually confronted somebody. You had somebody over for dinner. The person was clearly suffering and drinking a lot, but you weren't

going to mention that. And Reya said, hey, what's going on? Basically, I'm paraphrasing, what's going on with all the drinking? You're clearly suffering. She broke down, shared what was going on. And then the part that made me gasp was when she said, she turned to Rea, who had just opened up this portal for her of truth that no one else had. And she said, will you, can I call you tomorrow? Will you help me with this? And Rea said, no. But there are rooms you can go to that will help you with that.

I'll point you to those rooms. Wow. I don't know. That is, no. Because I can't. I can't. But like, Liz, do you think that sometimes when I, when someone's suffering or I perceive that they are suffering, I think I'm doing better now. But my idea of what a friend was was doing stuff.

Like, you have a problem. I'll pay your thing. Is that from a lack of self-worth to? Because do some people show up and believe that their presence is what is needed? Such a good question. shit. It's such a good question, Glenn, because it's like, the funny thing about addicts is that we, we have this totally gutted esteem. Like, we have no sense of our value, our true value, our true grace, our true sacredness. And we think we're the most important people in the entire

world. Yes. Who are so capable of like fixing others, right? So it's like, I have no sense of my own self-worth and yet I think that, that I can save you. One of the things that I receive lot in this practice that I do call two-way prayer is what I call God will say to me, you don't even know what you're looking at. You think you've got answers for other people. Trust me when I tell you, you don't even know what you're looking at when you're looking at this situation. Your perception is so warped. And one of the things that one of my sponsors taught me that I love that she does and that she said, I have a mantra because she's a codependent in recovery, but she's like when I'm working with a sponsor or when I'm with a friend who's

troubled or when I'm seeing somebody who's suffering, as I'm listening to them, I'm repeating this mantra in my mind. I have complete faith in your ability to solve your own life. I have complete faith in your ability to solve your own life. I have complete faith in your ability to solve your own life. It's a mantra that she has to keep saying. And not only does that keep her from leaping in to disempower someone by saving them. It does do that. It gives them back. What it what that mantra does, I've complete faith in your capacity. I've complete faith in your ability. I have complete faith. One of the things I'll say to my friends is like, I believe in your resourcefulness. You've lived this long, you know? Like, so if I got an email today saying

somebody's struggling and they're in trouble and they need their friends, I've trained myself to be like, I would read that email now and I say, I've complete faith. Of all people, I would have complete faith in Raya Elias's resource on this to be able to find solutions for her own life, right, which might include asking for help or guidance. But that's a very different reaction than I'm going to jump into this burning car and pull you out of it. Yes. So now we're both on fire. Now we're both on fire, which is helpful. And there's nobody left to serve. I think that I know more than anyone on this entire planet that having the right therapist to talk to can make a life-changing difference.

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to helping you make progress. Better with people, better with Alma, visit helloalma.com slash hard things to get started and schedule a free consultation today. That's hello-a-l-m-a.com slash hard things. Okay. Here's what I want you to explain to us in your Lizy words. We all have these secret stories that are running underneath everything. And everybody has a story that is some version of, I am not okay.

I'm going to find the hero of this story that will make me okay. And everybody has a different one. Okay, so Reyes was drugs. Drugs are what will make me okay. Yours is love and sex. Another person. Some people is work.

Some people, everybody has a thing. Some of those things are celebrated by culture. A woman who gives away everything like the freaking giving tree is celebrated. So that's a workaholism. That's something that celebrates harder to figure out when those are hurting you because the culture is saying more, more, more of that. This is what I want you to try to explain to people who have never been in the rooms. There is something that happens that happened with Raya. she gave up her hero of drugs for the rooms for a higher power for a while and she was sane.

You have given up the hero that is another person. For what? What are all these people finding that they're replacing their shitty hero with that is giving them sanity? What the hell is it? everything it's the everything it's the what the yogis would call the ottman it's the Tao it's the it's the way it's the universal eternal it's the thing that cannot be extinguished it's the thing that cannot be that will never run out right you run out of drugs you run out of energy to work you run out like I exhaust people Glenn and everyone I've ever been with in a romantic

is like, I am exhausted from trying to get you to believe that you are lovable. It's exhausting for people, right? I need to go to a source that does not run dry. And that is not me and that is not you, but it is in us and we are of it. Right. So the way I describe the whole, the empty, vast, what we call the rooms, the God-sized whole, like I've got this vacancy in me that I keep trying to fill with other things, people, places, and things, works for sort of a minute. It's like a little snack, you know, but it's ravenous. Yes. The whole is ravenous.

No one can fill it. But then there's this, there's something in the universe that doesn't end, that is never tired of me, that I can't bore to death, that doesn't get exasperated with me, that delights in communion with me. One of the things that I say to, you know, I use the word God, but I always use it very carefully, especially when I'm aware that so many people have such deep trauma around that word, especially if they grew up in a high demand religion, or they were abused by that word, or they were abused within that word. I use it because actually I love that word, but I always work with my sponsorsies to be like, what do you want to call it? Like, what do you want to call

all that you cannot see but know is there? Like, what do you want to call the thing that in the beautiful book of Job, that beautiful speech that God gives to Job, that is essentially God saying to Job, you don't even know what you're looking at here. And, like, and just says to Job, like, do you feed the wild raven? You know, it's one of my favorite lines that brings me back to humility whenever I'm, like, thinking I know what the world is about, what's going on, what's happening here, what everybody needs. It's like, do you feed the wild raven, Liz? Like, what feeds the wild raven, Liz? Like, what feeds the wild raven. What created the wild raven? What created the food that feeds the wild raven? I don't,

didn't. You know, I didn't. So whatever your word is for what feeds the wild raven, the question that I have is, can you begin to, can you consider the possibility that there might be a higher intelligence in the universe than yours? Even by just looking at like an age. corn and being like, how does this turn into, right? I remember when Martha Beck and Rowan were having their baby through IVF and they had one egg. It's all they got was one egg that got, you know, inseminated. And it was like this microscopic, like tiny little thing in a petri dish. And Martha was like, inside of that are her food allergies, her preferences, her artisan. Her artistic talents, like, how? You know, it's like, this thing is incredible what's going

on to say. So the question that I always have for them is like, can you imagine there might be an intelligence higher in the universe than yours? Or do you think that your intelligence is the highest intelligence in the universe, right? Which doesn't even make sense. Like, I hope to, God, there's a higher intelligence the universe than mine. Because all I have to do is look at how poorly I've made choices in my life and how bad I am in anticipating what's going to be good for me going to be happy for me to know that I am not the highest intelligence in the universe, right? So can you imagine there might be a higher intelligence? You don't have to know what it's called or where it's from or what it is. If the answer to that is yes, the second

question is, can you imagine that it might care about you? Having gone through the trouble to create you, can you imagine that it might be invested slightly in your well-being and your care, that it might see as precious? If the answer to that is, it's just a maybe, it only has to be a Maybe. Could it be? And then the third question is, given that it's a higher intelligence than yours, given that it cares about you, can you imagine that it might want to communicate with you and that it might welcome that if you come to it and ask, can we communicate, that it will? And if the answer to those questions are yes, then why wouldn't you give up everything for that that you thought was going to make you happy, which I've got decades of experience to prove

does not you know and the god what i call god that thing that feeds the wild raven what i believe is that it loves freedom it loves freedom for people it loves free people and so it let me try everything else it's like oh sweetheart just go go try it you know try this person try that person try men try women you know try plant medicine try antibiotics and antidepressants Try success. Try fame. Try exercise. Try it. Just, I just feel like I said, go go. Go. Go. You try it. Because when you come to me, I want you to come to me without a thought in your mind that's like there might have been something else I could have tried. Yeah. Like make sure, go try it. Go see. And have all those experiences. And when you've had enough and you're still exhausted and hungry, and empty and lonely come to me and let me show you what I have for you but come to me willingly willingly yeah you know come to me willingly because you want one of the other ways I see it is there's door A which is everything I've ever done and I know how that ends

mixed bag and then I don't know it's pretty consistent and then there's door B which is this big, giant question mark on it that just says, God. And God's like, now you go through door A, the nice thing is you know what you're going to get. You go through door B, you have no idea what you're going to get, but aren't you slowly curious? Mm-hmm. You know, and that's what my journey is now, which is just constantly every day remembering to go through door B and get my bounty that's waiting for me there.

Okay, my last question is this. Since we don't know what the hell we're looking at ever, is there any part of you that feels like where you are now, are you and Ray are both free now? You know, I think so because she said to me, I was about to say I can't know, and then I'm like, no, I do know. She used to say to me, I will not, she used to promise me, I will not. She used to promise me, I will not leave until I know that you can stand on your own two feet

in every single circumstance of your life. And then she died before I could do that. So that was confusing. I was like, you promised you weren't going to leave. I don't know how to do anything. I'm only this many years old. I don't know how to do anything. I don't know how to do anything. But I felt her presence so vividly after her death. I mean, she was as present as you are right now to me. And she was talking to me and guiding me and making me laugh. And like she was so vivid and so present. And over the years, I've felt that presence depart, which is sort of heartbreaking and confusing because I'm like, where are you going? But now I hardly ever feel her. Every once in a while, you know, hardly ever feel her. I used to feel her everywhere. And I'm like,

oh I must be standing on my own two feet because you're leaving right like you know that I can do this now and interestingly like that's what parents are supposed to do that's right right very tricky for them very tricky for us yeah but I mean maybe it's not what they're supposed to do I don't know but, you know, that's, it's like I'm going to take you as far as I can take you and then I'm going to trust completely in your own capacity to find your own way in your own journey. And is there any higher honor that you can give to somebody than to trust them completely with their own life? Like, isn't that, in fact, the most respectful thing that you could do? Yeah. Yeah, and starting with yourself would be a good one.

I'm going to consider what you've said, Liz. I'm going to think it over. I love you. I love you so much, Glennon. I can't believe the truth and beauty you put into this book, for real. Like, as your friend, I just, I know that you didn't do it to help people. But it's going to, it's going to. Thank you.

I love you. I'm glad that we decided to be here at the same time in school. one two minute one minute thing do you know i don't know if you remember this but when abby and i moved to naples florida we lived on this little creek and we got this little boat and we used to go out on the gulf of mexico the gulf of mexico and and we had the most it was like when we had first got we first were married and we used to go out on this boat and we would get this feeling of just freedom and giddiness. No one was the boss of us. We were just out. Nobody could tell us what to do. We were captaining our own boats. We were sitting on each other's laps on the wind

through our hair. And one day we were like, what are we going to name this boat? And we were thinking of that feeling. And we named the boat, Rea. Because it was just this wild self-determination. And I don't know. I just. I feel very honored to have been any part of witnessing that whole thing. You're a big part of it. You're a big part of it, and you still are. I love you more than the force of 10,000 burning suns. And I have complete faith in your capacity to govern your own journey.

Thank you. You too, Pod Squad. We have faith in you. 100%. We'll see you next time. Love you. Bye. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media.

We make art for humans who want to stay human. Forever Dog is our production partner, and you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram.