We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Manifestation: Is it Real or BS?

Episode Date: March 4, 2025

390. Manifestation: Is it Real or BS?  Today we have a treat for you. Abby’s excited, Glennon is nervous and Amanda’s skeptical because we are finally talking about…MANIFESTATION. What is it, is it BS, or could magic actually be real? We also discuss the deeper stories that the current interest in manifestation tells us about the culture and world we live in.  -Is manifestation real and empowering or is it just another way to feel bad about ourselves?  -If there’s a connection between neuroscience and manifestation -Whether some of the disdain for or mistrust of manifestation *could* be rooted in sexism -What individual manifestation misses and how we can use it for collective good To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

As the weather warms up and spring is in the air, it's the perfect time to escape the usual routine and take a refreshing getaway. I recently discovered how special a spring retreat can be when I book an Airbnb instead of a hotel. We found a peaceful cottage, so cute, tucked away in the countryside, surrounded by so many blooming flowers

and the sound of birds chirping. It was exactly what we needed. A quiet little escape with all the comforts of home. We had the whole place to ourselves with plenty of space to cook breakfast and enjoy meals at our own pace. Unwind with a good book and a cozy corner and even step outside to relax on the porch.

Whether you're with family, friends or flying solo, Airbnb gives you the home away from home experience with the space and freedom to truly relax. If you're looking for your own spring retreat, Airbnb has the perfect spot waiting for you. Okay, so something cool has been happening in my life that I have been doing, which Abby knows because she's been watching.

I have for the first time in five years, been setting my little alarm at night to get up very early and write. I have been writing again and it has been a treat for me. Okay. Me too. And then here's what I've been doing with my writing each day. I've been doing the same thing that I did during my early blogging days where I avoided perfectionism by saying I'm just gonna

write for an hour and a half for an hour and then I'm gonna send. Press send. And that kept me from perfectionism, which is why all the rest of my career unfolded. Okay, what I've been doing with these little writings is I've been sending them in a newsletter to all the love bugs who are registered for my newsletter. Okay? I don't know what the hell's gonna happen. All I know is it's great fun. all the love bugs who are registered for my newsletter. Okay?

I don't know what the hell's gonna happen. All I know is it's great fun so far. It reminds me of my early writing days. It's just us. It's just me writing. I avoided newsletters for so long because I don't like newsletters. I always feel like when I get one, it feels overwhelming.

It feels like it's mostly just like a report of everything the person has been accomplishing in the world, which feels like, why is this for me? This feels like it's for you. Like, should I write back and say congratulations? Like, I don't know. Anyway, I just decided I wanted, if I was gonna do a newsletter, I wanted it to be different.

I wanted it to be a little treat, like a little treat for me to write, a little treat for whoever's opening it to like give them a little joy for the day. So it's called a little treat. I'm loving it. I just sent my first one out last week. I think people are really liking it. And obviously, if you want to register for the newsletter, you have to give me your email address. Obviously I will never do anything shady with your email addresses. Okay I wouldn't know how but even if I could I would never. I will protect your email addresses with my life. If you want my little treat

newsletter, which will not be a list of my accomplishments. It will just be a helpful little story. Go to glennandoyle.com. You'll see a signup box in the top middle of the page where you can submit your email address and that's it. Okay. And then if you're on Instagram, you can go to my page, click the link in bio, and you'll see sign up for newsletter as the second button. Click that button and submit your email address.

And then you'll get the little treat in your inbox. Yeah, exactly. A little treat from me to you. Yeah. And also just for those listening, like you guys don't understand how much joy this is bringing Glennon. Every morning I walk upstairs to get my coffee and she's like, I did it. I wrote a thing. I walk upstairs to get my coffee and she's like, I did it. I wrote a thing. I did it. And she's doing it every single morning and it's so fun for her and the joy that it is making and bringing to our family. It's been a full on real treat. I know. And by the way, it's a little treat because I was talking to Lizzie Gilbert about

this two days ago, because she was so excited that I was writing again. And I said, I forgot that the reason I haven't one of the reasons I haven't been writing is because I always think I have to write a book and it's so long and big. And I don't know things that are long. I don't know things for a long time. Okay. I don't know how to explain that except I only know things shortly. But then I'm clear. I'm like, wow, I know that thing and I write it down and then it's over and I forget it and it's not connected to anything else. So that's why this newsletter is so good for me. It's a little bit of wisdom, a short wisdom,

and I can let go of knowing things long. Yeah. All right, you guys, go to Glenandoyle.com. You're gonna see a sign up box in the top middle of the page where you can submit your email address. And if you're on Instagram, go to the page, click the link in the bio, sign up for the newsletter.

It's the second button. You can do it. We love you. It's gonna be a treat. Also, there's no news in the newsletter. It's a no newsletter. I just don't know what else can do it. We love you. It's going to be a treat. Also there's no news in the newsletter. It's a no newsletter. I don't know what else to call it. It's a non newsletter.

No newsletter. Bye. Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Hello. Oh gosh. I, you know what? I really was excited about this episode today. You are?

Yes. You were? In past tense, you said I was excited. Are you no longer? No. In the past, I've been excited about this because it's so beyond, in a way, the thinking about it. And it requires a different level of preparation.

So I've left all of my brain outside, and I've just come with my spirit. Oh my god. That's so woo-woo of you. I know. Oh my God, that's so woo woo of you. And that's good that you're feeling woo woo today because what we're talking about today is a word that makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable. It gives Glenn in the ick.

Yes. So the Gen Zers say. Right, and that word is manifestation. Okay, and the reason why... Why did you say it so bizarrely? Because even the word makes me feel uncomfortable. So I feel like I have to say it in a way that like you can sense my air quotes or something. But I will admit that while the idea of manifestation makes me roll my eyes,

I also think it's kind of true, but completely untrue. I'm having a hard time, as I told Abby and my sister, I don't know what my take is. But one of the reasons that we're talking about manifestation today is because, well, on New Year's's one of our teenagers was like we're going home from the party because we're gonna make our vision boards and I was like I'm sorry what did you say? You're making vision boards which felt

very like back to the 90s you know and so I think the idea of manifestation is having a resurgence with the gen Alpha, Gen Z kiddos. And so we just thought we would get together and talk about what manifestation is. Well, what it means to us. Okay, and Cece, what do you think? Sister will tell us what it is. It is, what in the hell is it?

Well, first we should start with like, what is generally accepted to be? Like what people think about when they think about manifestation. And the idea is that your thoughts manifest your reality. And so if you change your thoughts, you can manifest what you desire. Okay.

And there has been a lot of, it came mostly to super popular in... Remember that book, The Secret? Oh, I love that book. I was so in that book. Oh my God, that book was the best. Wait, wait. You loved that book. Oh, Law of Attraction, the whole thing. I went down and bought the videos. I bought all of that shit.

Okay, Abby Wanbuck, I love you. Tell the Pod Squad what that is to you. What's the law of attraction? What was the secret? What did you love about it? Okay, it was, by the way, I just started living on my own. I think this is like an 05-ish. It was 06, it came out, yeah.

And I just got my first little condo. I was living by the beach in Los Angeles and I was like, it came out. Yeah. Yeah. And I had just gotten my first little condo. I was living by the beach in Los Angeles and I was like really feeling myself. And at the time, as like a new adult, it's like 25, I felt like I needed to have a kind of belief system because I had just exited the Catholic church and I didn't have much. Atheism felt kind of lonely.

There's not like a group, or at least there wasn't at the time that I knew about that I could attach myself to. And then this book and this philosophy kind of came out and I think Oprah was all into it also. So I just like dove in and I was like, oh, this is like so interesting. The spiritual world, like it gave me access

to the spiritual world that I knew like the Catholic religion was giving to people who firmly believed in Christianity, Catholicism. And what was the promise of it that made you feel attracted to it? What's the secret? Well, it's like these different ways of thinking about it. So one of them is like law of attraction, right?

That was like a huge thing that I was really trying to understand more about myself, trying to understand like being on the national team. And I don't know, I was just trying to evolve in spiritual, mental and emotional ways that was gonna help me become a better leader and a better soccer player. Like that's what my goal for this was. And I don't remember every single rule or law that was written

in The Secret, but I just remember the feeling of feeling like this is religion but in a spiritual way. Yeah, it's like a different realm. It's like a realm not of what you can just see and touch. There's like another realm there. So the law of attraction is basically the idea that was in that book is that it's a philosophy of the world where positive thoughts attract positive results, negative thoughts attract negative results, which is a slightly different than manifestation, but the same kind of like that got a lot of people

on board with the general concept, right? Okay, if you think good thoughts, good things happen. If you think bad thoughts, bad things happen. If you speak things into the universe, you can make your requests known and it will come back to you. That's manifestation, right? You can think, speak, focus your way

towards the life that you want. And believe, like I think that there's a belief system that has to be a part of, I don't know, for me, like when I think about the reality coming true of a life that you dream of, you have to believe in its existence before you actually enter into it. Yeah. Yeah. The baseline idea is that, and it's hard for me to talk about it because there's the

kind of popular science influencer version of manifestation, and then there's the kind of science, neuroscience backed, this is the way brains work, that has like a view into manifestation from that perspective. And so it has different colors based on the way you're talking about it. But the overarching idea, which can be super dangerous or feel super empowering to people, is basically your thoughts control, influence, attract. Your thoughts become, influence, attract. Your thoughts become reality, basically, is like a thread. Just that is, it makes my whole body reject that.

That's a great news for someone who has mental health issues or that is so damning in a way to think about like, oh, so we teach everyone that they're not their thoughts. And then if I have like obtrusive thoughts, then I'm gonna have a bad life. Yeah, well, on our OCD, Allegra Castance said how truly, truly dangerous and terrifying it is to people with OCD,

this whole like flood of manifestation everywhere because their whole survival depends on knowing that there's a big difference between their thoughts and the acting on the thoughts and making it a reality. And so it is dangerous to people who have intrusive thoughts and are trying to show who they are outside of their thoughts. Yeah.

I think it's interesting. I can understand. Okay. If you, you know how religions, there's always the religion. Okay. And there's people who subscribe to that religion and that usually has a lot to do with kind of deferring to group, a group idea and like taking on a community and working inside and sort of having like middle men between you and God. That's kind of what religion is.

And then there's always a form of religion of that religion that is a mystical version of it. Yeah. So there's like, the mystics are the ones who I definitely identify more now with the mystic version of a religion. So I feel a lot of Christian energy or something inside of me, but I subscribe more to the idea of like, I would like to remove the dogma and the middle men

and just have like a direct experience with God. That is very convenient for someone like me, who also doesn't people scare me. So it kind of takes the community aspect out of religion. When you only go to mysticism, right? To me, manifestation feels a little bit like that. If you are disenchanted with religion, manifestation kind of says, you don't need any of it. It's just you and your thoughts. It's just you. It's you and God or you and the universe.

You don't need other people. You don't need a dogma, which makes me feel a little bit uncomfortable. Like it's just part of individualism, of Western individualism, that we don't need anything but us. We're like our own little gods. Oh, I totally is true also. Yeah. Yes. But I totally disagree with you. I think that

at least the form of manifestation that I ascribe to you, it's not just a calculation with me and myself and my thoughts. It is a calculation with me, myself, my thoughts, and the energies of the world, and your energy, and our kids' energy. I am trying to cultivate and manifest using all of the different energies. It's not just like, oh, only, and I understand that some people only ascribe to like, your thoughts will create your life.

I get that. That is not how I interpret my form of manifestation at all. But do you think, I guess I just don't see a lot of people manifesting collective liberation. Exactly. It feels like people are always manifesting like a car or a new job or more money, which is good. People should have a car and money and a new. But it just, that form of manifestation, it doesn't feel like it's connected to collective liberation. It feels like it's always aimed

towards an individual perfectionism. It feels to me like manifestation is the mysticism of capitalism. Oh, interesting. Well, that is like the prosperity gospel, right? Exactly. The whole idea of the folks who took the secret, the law of attraction, they're like, wait, we can capitalize this using, you know, faith, consciousness.

And so they started preaching, if you follow God, you will get rich, right? If you give your tithes to this church, richness will come to you. So there's a whole kind of co-opting and subversion of this. But your point is really strong to me about the individualism in it because there's also this thread of the individuals are both responsible for their outcomes that are positive and the individuals are responsible for their outcomes that are positive.

And the individuals are responsible for their outcomes that are negative, thereby completely bypassing and ignoring every systemic oppressive force that exists. So like if your outcomes go awry and your situation isn't what you want it to be, you have failed to think yourself into a better situation. You know, if isn't what you want it to be, you have failed to think yourself into a better situation.

Right. You know, if you attract what you think. And so the flip side of that is, you know, you are to blame for your issues that is now on you. And then by definition, everyone is absolved who is part of the oppressive systematic forces because it's just you and your brain. It's not anything else that's happening. So it puts no pressure to dismantle a systemic oppression

when you're just saying outcomes are based on individual's thoughts. And so therefore it might work for certain people, right? Who don't have those obstacles in front of them. But if you do have those obstacles in front of you, you're going to have to think yourself to freedom and jump over every single obstacle that's there. That's right.

Totally. ["Sweet Home"] Manifestation is for the privileged. It's for the few who don't have these huge brick walls as obstacles in front of them. I think that that's right. Some versions of it for sure. But then the interesting thing is when my brain says absolutely manifestation is bullshit because of what you just said, because of the culture that we live in,

because of systematic racism, because of homophobia, because of misogyny, then there's another part of my brain that goes, but isn't systematic racism and misogyny a manifestation of a bunch of people who thought this into existence. Well, a manifestation and organization and intention and persistence. Right.

The dismantling of all of our freedoms have come from decades of organization. So it isn't just individual people hoping to oppress women and black people and trans people. They got together and did something. So this is a piece, you have to imagine it, envision it, and then you have to make it happen and this is a piece that does not exist in the manifestation world. Yeah, right. It's very individual, right? Or maybe we don't know.

Maybe there's groups of people getting together and manifesting together and like doing the opposite of what the people have done to get us to this place. maybe there's groups of people getting together and manifesting together and like doing the opposite of what the people have done to get us to this place. Maybe there are people manifesting collective liberation. That's not what we really see on TikTok. You know, there's only, there's these like- White manifestation is different, like white lady manifestation.

But then you guys, like I'm thinking all this. And then I'm like, oh my God, in Untamed, I literally wrote that we should all write down the truest most beautiful families, countries, communities we can imagine and that when you write it down when you are intentional and you think through what you want then you put it down in paper. And then that becomes a blueprint for making it real, that our dreams and our plans, they come to life one dimension at a time.

So what the hell is that if not manifestation? And there is a part of me that says, well, of course, if you don't know where you're going, if you leave your house and you don't have a destination, then you're just going to drive around and wander. And if you in your mind have an idea of where you're going, then of course you have a better chance of getting there. So there's a lot about this that also makes perfect sense. So I feel, I guess the word is conflicted,

but I feel like there's a paradox within me around this. Because I 100% believe that manifestation works when it works. And I also 100% believe that there is a reality that it's full of shit. And I guess the only thing that it makes me feel a little bit better, believing that we have this like, unknowable and unseeable connection with the world

and our lives and the outcomes. It makes me feel like, I mean, when I was playing soccer, and I've talked about this on the pod before, but the book, The Secret, The Celestine Prophecy, the movie, What the Bleep Do We Know? I don't know if you guys ever saw the movie, What the Bleep Do We Know? Well, like everything is matter in the world.

And part of this movie, in terms of like, our bodies being water, and us being able to literally look at the molecules and the chemistry of water when you like send positive energy and loving thoughts towards it, it actually makes the water molecules different looking than when you send angry and mean energy towards water. Now I know that sounds so wild and it doesn't,

but like I want to believe that I me in my body can affect we and The world in a way and I'm not saying like I'm gonna make the world a better place, but I believe and I believed on the soccer field that if I energetically believed and manifested and had an intention of some beautiful outcome and I was tapped into myself enough and I was also tapped into the energy of my teammates and the energy of the crowd and the energy of the millions of people

watching on television that I believed that there was more of a chance we could win. Now we didn't win every game so this philosophy and idea falls flat Now we didn't win every game. So this philosophy and idea falls flat because we didn't win every game. I didn't manifest the win every time. But then there has to be this like reality and acceptance of the universe actually having a part to play in the roles of how all of our lives kind of unfold because so much of what happens is a matter of timing.

When we were born, the generation we are living through, the things that are happening, like these trends and forces that are outside of ourselves that we don't have much control over and then how we like pivot and interact within all of it. So I 100% believe in manifestation and also in the same breath. I also 100% think it's fucking bullshit Yeah, it's like same same. Yeah, I have the same paradox and I have a bias towards Believing science is credible. So I'm like naming that bias. Is that a bias now thinking science is real Like if I'm looking at this and I'm saying, I'm looking at a hundred people who swear to God this works for them, and then I'm listening to a neuroscience

professor, I'm going to be like, I'm betting on the neuroscience professor. So there is some bias there. I'm admitting that, like, but I think we live in a world that biases science so much that it's not a bias. But I'm just saying, that's my thing. There's a couple of things you said, Abby, that are so interesting, which is that when you said the universe or whatever, another interesting part of the kind of pop culture manifestation is that the universe wants something good for you. Right. That is a thread throughout this.

That is not what the neuroscientists say. But this is the idea that like, if you can tap into this, the universe only wants good things for you. It's conspiring in your favor and you just have to tap into it. So this is a thread. But when you're talking about the energy around the water molecules or whatever, science tells us that our energy fields that are from within us go five feet from us. Beyond. We are walking around with an energetic field that is confirmed by science. So it isn't when you think about like,

okay, my energy interacts with yours and I think I can bring energy to this situation to impact it. You are doing that scientifically. So that's a real thing. But Glennon, when you're talking about what you wrote in Untamed, I think that is, even if you are just, when people say I'm journaling about it or I'm writing out my intentions,

even that idea of like, it is that piece of things, like forcing you to think so clearly about what your goal is or what your intention is, that you can actually see it, that you are like taking it from your brain and being able to name it. And it's like that whole idea, if you can see it, you can be it. Like Abby, probably every team

that you've ever been on competitively, part of your training has been to visualize the goal. Visualize it and see it in your brain. And that's because that makes it more likely you'll be able to do it. Because scientifically it's called imagery, it's called imagining something because it's creation, right? Like you're creating something out of nothing. And how do you know where you're going unless you've created it in your mind already? The blueprint. It's like making a path and then you ski down it. Yeah. It's like you're creating a neurological path that then you can access physically. That's how it feels to me. Yeah. Yep. Do you

guys wonder, I sometimes feel suspicious of my own suspicion of manifestation because I'm always looking for where the misogyny that the culture has planted inside of me. And sometimes I wonder if not all, but some of our disdain for manifestation is because it's more of a female way of talking. Like, if a guy is saying, I want this, I'm planning this, I'm envisioning this, we just call it leadership. Is manifestation as like the way we see it play out something that is more female than male, and that is why there's a cringe vibe to it. Like we discredit it because it is more female-based.

Just like we discredit, you know, female jobs and think they're soft and not hard. And I wonder also if there's another piece of it, like, to believe yourself to be powerful enough to be able to manifest the life that you want is so audacious that maybe it's like, that's fucking crazy. Who am I to think that I could do that? You know? Especially if a woman is doing it. Yeah. I think one of the things sister that you were just saying about the like one of

the pathways here is like the universe conspiring on your side and good things will happen to you right karma all this stuff i actually don't believe that the universe is conspiring for us oh i don't i will not since my brothers died when he died i went through like a really a troubling process of therapy where I had to get really honest with myself and confronted about the question of like, if you're a good person, then good things happen to you. Yeah.

And I think that that's where part of this, like, you know, the universe is conspiring in your favor. I think the universe is happening. The things are happening. And how you interact and perceive what is happening is the important part. Because, you know, I'm at least now at a place where, of course, I wish my brother were alive. But I'm also like, wow, this has taught me so much. And I'm having some gratitude around the difficulty and the grief and the trouble that this has caused me. At first, last

year, I was in the trouble of it and it was excruciating and I hated it and I didn't want to be participating with it, but I stuck with it and now it's like, so the way we think about the universe happening to us, the way we interact with our thoughts around the world that is happening to us, to me, in terms of being a pretty positive and optimistic person, I don't know if this is something that you can teach yourself, sister. I'm sure you know like more about that, but I want to live in a, in a life for the brief time that I'm here feeling like not that the universe is going to,

but that I'm going to have a very interesting experience. And I want to believe that certain outcomes are possible. I want to believe that there are certain things that I can do that will allow the universe to teach me the lessons that I meant to learn here during earth school, as Liz Gilbert says. I mean, the beliefs thing is a thing, right? It doesn't have to be like, I believe that I'm gonna get a hundred dollar bill when I walk out the beliefs thing is a thing, right? It doesn't have to be like,

I believe that I'm gonna get a hundred dollar bill when I walk out the door. Like that, not that type of belief, but like if I come to a group of people and I'm thinking and feeling, and I know this from much experience, if I come into a group, everything about me is the same. All right, I'm not like scowling or whatever, but I'm thinking I cannot stand these people.

I want this to be over. I can tell the difference. I am affecting people by what I'm thinking. I'm not saying that I understand what the hell or why. I just know based on my experience on this earth that when I come to a group of people and I'm thinking, I love these people, we are lucky to be together, we're gonna make beautiful, whatever it is,

everything goes differently than when I come in with different thoughts. That part, I believe. That's confirmation bias. I mean, that is the way that our brains work. What we think, we interpret all the data around us to prioritize those pieces of data that confirm what we think and what we believe. So is that manifestation then?

So this is part of manifestation. So like if we want to get into like the neuroscience of it in terms of like the leading professor neurosurgeon on this whole thing is Dr. Doty. He is like leading expert of the world on the science of this. It's fascinating. I'm going to try to summarize how it works because it's interesting because it's a thread of all of these things we've talked about in different ways that like the way it works in our brains. So first of all, he says the universe doesn't give a fuck about you. And that is not bad news or good news. When we're waiting on the universe to reward good people, then what happens when bad things happen to people? Are they bad? I know.

This is a confusing thing. You are the universe in your existence. You're not waiting on the universe to bestow this goodness upon you. So what his definition is, and we can go through the brain science of this, but manifesting is defining an intention. So you have your intention, you define your intention in such a way that it gets embedded in your subconscious and in a way that makes it more likely that that thing will happen. And this is just how the science works. If things are embedded in your subconscious, when it gets embedded there,

and we know this because of all the stories we were born into and told for the first decades of our lives that are now so embedded in us, they're in our subconscious and we're spending our lives confirming them that we are not worthy, that we have to keep hustling forever, that people are going to leave us, whatever it is. When something gets embedded in your subconscious, it activates different networks of the brain. And these different brain networks

are like attentional networks, right? So by embedding it and activating these different networks, you are telling your brain, A, this is important, and B, I need to pay attention to this. So you are now, when you think, when your brain knows that something is important and you need to pay attention to it, you by definition are living your life in such a way to make that thing more likely to happen.

Because you're paying attention to it, you think it's important. Your body believes that that is true. And so a key part of it, of what he's saying saying is that it's just basically a way to train your brain, to move these things into the subconscious so you can take advantage of the brilliance of your brain, which is already doing that stuff with other things that you don't necessarily want in your subconscious. So part of this process is not only defining your intention, it is figuring out what is already operating there. What are already the stories that you are telling yourself more and more so that you can see those as the negative self-talk, the

whatever, and try to make them conscious instead of subconscious. Interesting. And the reason he gives this example, like, you know how you can be at a party and there's like hundreds of people there and it's so loud and someone from across the room says your name and you hear it. It doesn't make sense that you hear your name being called from across the room in this very loud crowded, crowded room. That is because your brain knows that paying attention to your name is important. It has been trained to do that. It seeks it out, right?

Right. So it doesn't make sense that you can because if someone said grapefruit over there, it wouldn't even register in your brain. So this is the idea that the embedding that happens. Does that make sense? I think I feel much more comfortable with the whole concept when you're talking about it that way, when it's about brain science, when it's about energy, because I can be with you for all of that.

I haven't thought this all the way through, so just I'm going to stumble through it. But there's something about when the God thing gets added, because honestly, when we say the universe, we're talking about the big energy, we're talking about God, we're talking about some higher power, some organizing force. Right. That's what we're saying, right? So that is when it starts to get scary to me because in spiritual traditions, money is not considered the thing that reflects whether God approves of you or you are good. Most spiritual traditions, it is the opposite of that, right? So when

prosperity gospel, which is basically saying, if God loves you, God wants you to be rich, God wants you to have so much money, there's a million different forms of that. But to me, when that is entered into the field as an idea, as a spiritual idea, then every time we are testing something that someone's telling us, is that true? You have to test the shadow side, right? So if it is true that if God loves us and approves of us, God wants us to be rich and God wants, then that also means if you are poor and you don't have money, then God somehow does not approve of you. Which is how, to me, we end up with the Brolegarky running what they are pitching as Christianity,

right? That is how the slow slippery slide into slowly believing that if God, you can tell that God has anointed you whether you're rich, if you're rich, means we can approve of Donald Trump as a Christian figure? How? It must have to do with how rich he is. Like, God has chosen him. It's the moral authority that is inferred from- Money.

You are favored on this planet, therefore must be favored by God and because of your actions. We end up with Elon Musk as a leader. We end up with like all of these, for me they're not disconnected. This idea that we have somehow allowed and what I would say is for that to be entered into Christianity is a stunning reversal of the biblical ideas of the meek shall inherit the earth, blessed are the poor. Like the kingdom of God is with them. There's a Bible story where Jesus is out in the desert

being tested and the devil comes to him and says, right now, say the words, I want to be rich. Say the words, I want power back. Literally saying, you know you can manifest this shit, just say it if you're God. And Jesus going, absolutely not, get behind me. Because there's something in that story about, I can manifest whatever the hell I want to,

and it's not gonna be that kind of power, and it's not gonna be money. of power, and it's not gonna be money. It's gonna be this collective liberation dream. So when manifestation is tied to prosperity, to empire power, that's when all the ickiness comes in from me, and having said that, I sure as hell understand in a system like this where power and money are hoarded and so many people have so little and we are completely disenfranchised with all systems,

it also makes sense to me for people to be like, I'm taking this shit into my own hands. And I do want to play with the power that I have and call money towards me and call power. So, and both for me, but scares me when prosperity gospel enters any realm at all. And it's also super interesting when you look at the reverse use of this in liberatory work. When you look at the other thing that neuroscience says about manifesting, one of the things that you have to do is calm yourself. A way of even getting to the place where you identify your intention to embed it in your subconscious is a place of calm and quiet. So for me, it's like the chicken or the egg. Is manifestation working because manifestation works or does it quote unquote work because it requires you to put your body in a state of relaxation and focus. And the only times we can transcend what is and imagine something better for ourselves is when

we are in a state of relaxation and focus. So what Dr. Doty talks about is that what happens is that we are constantly, especially in the world you just described, Glennon, operating from our sympathetic nervous system. This is the flight, fight, freeze place. So we are constantly there. We are in the fear space all the time. We can't access the thing that is a deeper intention,

a deeper desire. And that when you start practicing the kind of mindfulness that you need to identify your intention, even before you put it in your subconscious, you are moving to your parasympathetic nervous system where you can see clearly, where you can imagine something beyond your immediate fear space,

which is the place of, I have a dream, which is the place I woke up set on freedom, which is the place where all of those liberatory dreams that leaders had to identify, had to see with such clarity that they could say it to the world so that other people could see it, had to come from those places that were not, I'm only responding to the world. And so when you think about the reverse use of this, which is that you can get to a place where you can see beyond your immediate and see a better future,

that can be used for hugely good things, to be able to paint a picture, to be able to invite the world into visualizing what could be. Yeah, that's why Trisha Hershey's work is so freaking important. Right. That's like, there's a field you can go to

that is beyond what we see, that you can dream up something new inside of. Because otherwise we are just constantly either in obedience to the culture or in rebellion to the culture, but either of those are still not originating from an original place inside of us. We're just constantly responding to the quote man,

whether we're obeying or rebelling, it's still in reaction. And it's not even the man, we have internalized the man so that the man lives in our heads. Those limiting stories, those beliefs that we are currently operating from, from our subconscious have been effectively co-opted

from the power structures that need us to be limited and under control. That's interesting. Can I tell you the story? Yes. So I am listening to Sapiens, the Yuval Noah Harari book. And this book is blowing my mind. It's been out for years.

And part of the book, it's talking about like evolution and how we are descendants of Neanderthals. And one of the things that is just like really, really coming to me right now is that like, I think that where we are as a Homo sapiens animal, where we live on the evolution timeline as a homo sapiens animal, where we live on the evolution timeline is I think that we are in an in-between space. Because you can imagine the early ancestors,

our early ancestors, and them figuring out, and he writes about it in this book, that they had to figure out how to defeat the Neanderthals to be able to to defeat the Neanderthals to be able to take over the world. And part of the defeat was the evolution of a Homo sapien was that they told myths and stories. So our consciousness, our cognitive revolution is what he called it.

The ways in which our brains are different than those of the Neanderthals and the other cousins of the Homo sapien. To me, it's like we're living in a story that has been told over and over again and has been risen up and brought down with different regimes and empires, all of it. But I just wonder like, where are we on the timeline here

of our evolution? Where else will we gain access? And I do think that this kind of thinking, I do think science matched with spirituality and humanity, it's just, it's a fascinating thing to me to think about that the way that we evolve and societies are formed and cultures are formed and little families are formed is by the stories we tell about it.

And the stories that then get embedded into us. So we are a storytelling driven species. And so it's like, if you break that down just into the individual, it's like, okay, what are the stories that have been like embedded into the software of me? Are those stories aligned with the way I wanna live my life? Are they aligned with society?

Are they aligned with culture? If not, I mean, freaking psychedelic stuff, you know, we could go down the psychedelic route here and unwind and try to get into what these little embedded stories are, whether they're the ones that you wanna be carrying or not, pull them to the top, bring them to the top of your consciousness

to be like, sort it out. Oh no, I don't wanna do that. So I say all of this is like, if people are more interested in this Sapiens book I'm fascinated by this idea right now and I really do think that we are in In-between space where maybe the next you know Thousand years by the way, I'm not talking about like the next generation or gen alpha like in a thousand years Maybe we'll be able to tap into this other thing. I don't know. And that's so true. Our coding is stories, right?

Whether there's stories of our value, there's stories of our role, there's the stories of our worth in the world, all of it, what we should be doing, which fits it perfectly in line with the idea of manifestation. Like it's like what Glennon said in Untamed, like be careful the stories you tell yourself.

Yes. Especially about yourself. Yes. Because that is the track that is running and that is what you are looking to be confirmed in the world. That's right. As you're operating.

I guess like what I would say about what scares me about manifestation in some of the ways it's presented and why I understand it too, is in times of pain and chaos and broken systems, like we're in right now. And I'm not saying, I understand the system is working exactly as it's supposed to.

I mean broken and spiritually and morally. And in times when so many people feel such a loss of power and control, I fear that our little projects of safety and liberation will become more individualized. For example, we're still in the midst of, when we'll be for years in responding to what happened with the LA fires, okay?

And I watch pockets of the quote solution being people individually hiring private firefighters and protective things for their individual home and buying them with their own money. And my God, I understand the human need to protect your family. I mean, I'm not saying that I wouldn't be doing that, honestly, I don't know, but it scares me because I'm thinking

this is like a horrible version of Darwinism, like, but all based on money. Can we manifest? Yes. But can we do it together? Can we dream up a new way of building that means that everybody, regardless of how much money they have, whether they have enough to, could maybe survive another fire or can we manifest together? Can we avoid, resist the like capitalistic whiteness project of individual protection,

individual manifestation, individual survival and collectively dream. Okay. This is crazy because it's exactly, and when people say that's nuts, that doesn't make, that's such a lofty idea. This same method, this same thing that you're calling forth for people to do together now in response to crises, in response to oppression, is being used by the other side and always has been. In Trump's inauguration speech, he used and called back this 19th century phrase of manifest destiny. He said we are continuing the manifest destiny. Manifest destiny, what was it? It was just the idea that American settlers

were destined to expand westward and take over all the Westlands and every land they could see in touch. Okay, that was just a manifestation of an idea from someone's head that that should happen. So it's like, it's not just the woo woo lefty idea is being, it has been used for from time immemorial and was just in the inauguration speech that they're asking us to manifest together this idea of domination. And the question is, are we going to manifest together an idea of liberation? That's right. Wow.

Wow. That was fucking good. Good ending. We love you Pod Squad. I assume you're going to have some thoughts. The inbox is open. The voicemails are open. We'd love to hear what you have to say.

And if you don't tell us, don't worry, we're just going to manifest it. Right. You know what? We're not even going to tell you what the email, what the phone number is. You just manifest that shit. Just manifest it to yourself and get in touch with us. We'll see you next time. I know we will because I have seen it. And we've already manifested it.

Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us. If you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things? Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts, and then just tap the plus sign in the upper right hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for

the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five star rating and review and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Burmanerman and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, Dina Kleiner and Bill Schultz.