We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Martha Beck & Rowan Mangan: Polyamory & Throuple Life

Episode Date: August 11, 2022

1. What is Polyamory – and how Martha, Rowan, and Karen make their relationship work.  2. How Martha felt – after years of marriage to Karen – when Karen told her she was in love with Rowan, too.  3. The hilarious moment Martha, Karen, and Rowan told their friends they were now a throuple. 4. A huge lesson for couples based on the revolutionary ways they deal with conflict, jealousy, and daily rituals to stay close.   About Martha: Dr. Martha Beck is a New York Times bestselling author, life coach, and speaker. She holds three Harvard degrees in social science, and Oprah Winfrey has called her “one of the smartest women I know.” Her newest book, The Way of Integrity: Finding the Path to Your True Self, was an instant New York Times Best Seller. TW: @TheMarthaBeck IG: @themarthabeck About Rowan:  Rowan Mangan is a writer, podcaster and mom to a vivacious toddler. Salty, klutzy and Aussie, Ro co-hosts the Bewildered podcast with her wife, Martha Beck. She also runs the Wild Inventures newsletter and community on Substack. Ro is currently pursuing publication for her first novel, a magical realist thriller set on the west coast of Ireland. TW: @rowanmangan IG: @rowan_mangan To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things. We're already laughing around here because today we have a double date with some of our favorite people.

Are you excited? I'm so excited. Martha and Rowan, I mean. Dr. Martha Beck is a New York Times bestselling author, Life Coach and Speaker. She holds three Harvard degrees in social science but who doesn't? An Oprah Winfrey has called her one of the smartest women I know. Her newest book, The Way of Integrity, I love this book, I love this book, I love this book. Finding the path to your true self was an instant New York Times bestseller, obviously.

Rowan Mangin is a writer, podcaster, and mom to a vivacious toddler. Salty, Clotsy, and Ozzy. Ro co-hosts, the Be Wildard Podcast, which all of you must listen to, it is so good. And also, I just feel like we're talking about some of the same things, and it makes me really excited. Okay.

Podcasts with her wife, Martha Beck. She also runs the Wild Inventures newsletter and community on Substack. Ro is currently pursuing publication for her first novel, a magical realist thriller set on the west coast of Ireland, which I didn't know when I'm very excited for you, Rowan. Thank you. Cross the nose.

It's amazing, truly. Welcome to We Can Do Our Things. Thank you. It's so good to see your faces. So we miss you. This double date is a first for us because we can do hard things listeners. Martha and Rowan are missing one person who is Karen because Martha and Rowan and Karen are in a polyamorous relationship is that that's how you describe. Yeah, correct. Okay. A throttle. Okay. Right. Okay. So deeply satisfying domestic

arrangement. I would say that for me too. Said 1% of the population that they are in a deeply satisfying domestic arrangement. Okay. So can you talk to us first about how this all came together? Because parts of it make me laugh so hard. But Martha, you were married to a dude long time ago. Yeah, married to a guy. And we got together, but a long time ago, had three kids. He was gay, I was gay, out of that.

Yeah, got together with Karen, my first ever female female relationship. And everything was good to go until we died and tell something happened. And what happened? So the funny thing is that I start out, it's a bit embarrassing the way I start out in this story because I came in as a kind of Martha Beck groupie.

I don't see what's wrong with that. So I was all like misty eyed and excited and I put a lot of money that I did not have. I was a single woman living in Melbourne with a mortgage and a freelance career, and I thought, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna spend a ton of money to go on Martha Beck's African Safari Change Your Life Adventure.

Yes, okay. And then I'm just gonna become friends with her and be part of her life. Now, a lot of people think that. Yes, they do. But I got it. Yeah. It was, well, here's the thing.

On the way. So we do all this pre-work for these folks who come on the Safari thing. I just got back from there. It's way out in the bush in South Africa. And they're lions and everything. And everybody has to do tons of psychological pre-work so that I know whom to seek the lions on. Of course.

No, no, no, no, no. Out of the way early. But on her way, we kept getting these updates from Rowan Mangan. Rowan Mangan is in Paris, but her hotel got bedbugs and she hasn't slept for six days. Oh my God. Then Rowan Mangon is in Cape Town. She was mugged while trying to recover from the bed bug bites. And she's on all kinds of hormonal treatments

for the bed bug bites themselves. Plus she got a really bad hair dye job where they ruined her eyebrows and made her cry. That was the worst. Way worse than being mugged or bed bugs. Yes. Oh no. I was the way we were. Way worse than being mugged or bedbugs. Yes. Oh no. I was talking to my other coach,

she was going, oh my God, this poor woman. The moment she gets here, I'm going to start working with her. We're going to try to pull her out of whatever rage she is in because of this horrible experience. So everybody gets together, I spot her and I'm like, okay. And immediately start to work with her. Okay, and I'm doing my coachy stuff

and I'm thinking she's not reacting like a typical person. She's taking this incredibly well and she's drawing meaning out of it and she talks poet, and after about five minutes, I was just like, keep talking Mrs. whatever your name is. But what Martha didn't know is that I was also working with her because I have a super power about being the ultimate teacher's pet.

There is no teacher's pet who can out-teacher the pet me. And I knew exactly what I was doing. I had a plan. I had a plan. I was lucky. I was lucky. And I found myself doing things I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan.

I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan.

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I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan.

I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a plan. I had a You two are already connecting. So we knew each other. And then what happened was that Marty and Karen were living on a ranch in California, and there was sort of two different residences on the ranch, and there was a bit of a commune kind of vibe going on. And so one of the other people who lived there asked me to come and do some writing work with her

over a few months. And I was like, sure. Yeah. And she cut right to the day that Karen came to me because she got to know Rowan better than I really did. And they were hanging out together a lot. And one day she came to me, I said, Marty, I need to talk to you about something. I was like, all right. She said, I'm having very unusual feelings about Ro. I was like, really? How so she's like, I just feel like this fire hose of love. Like maybe, maybe it's sisterly,

and I was looking at her and I was like, it is not sisterly, you're in love. And I expected to feel, what, Jella, as I said, I had this bizarre reaction where I felt like I had hit, been hit by a train full of joy. Just wham! So much happiness. And I thought they were going to get together. I'd move out of the bedroom, row and move in with Karen, and I'd get the guest room. No problem. No problem. I was, and I kept going, why am I so happy? This should make me upset, but it doesn't. I started coming to our residence.

And the three of us, we went into a very strange interlude. Like, strange. It involved sitting close together on the couch, the three of us. All of us. And we planned the day around these times where we would get to sit close together on the couch. And we would just sit there going, this isn't weird.

This isn't strange. And we talked about everything. And the whole time we were sitting like mashed together on the couch, we're like, this isn't weird. Completely normal. Absolutely not. So were you telling yourself it wasn't weird

but it did feel weird or did it actually, okay, so you were feeling it was weird but you were telling yourself it wasn't weird, okay. It wasn't optional. At least not for me. Like there was no option to not sit on the couch together. It was like falling off a cliff and saying, well, I'm going to decide whether to hit the ground. I had no control. It freaked me out. Yeah. And so then over time, we sort of edged towards what was actually happening. Because the one thing about Martha and Karen is anyone who knows them, knew them, that that is not ever going to break up. That's not a, like that was not even in the realm of possibility with any of this stuff.

Not, you know, like the guest room, whatever, but they weren't going to break up. No, no, no. So it was all like we had to sort of go, what is this? What this, was not. So it was all like we had to sort of go, what is this? What this, and I can't the cable point where I was like, I will keep this from getting weird because I am not famous, but I am quite well known among people who've heard of me. Yeah. So and I write and talk about integrity. I can't tell lies or keep secrets. Nothing weird can happen because I would have to tell the entire world about it. So it's not gonna happen The next few days or weeks it was like literally trying to fight gravity It was like trying to hold ourselves on a little bar above the earth on a little bar above the earth, indefinitely, and everything was pulling us together.

It was so, it was such a strange and wonderful thing for me. How was it for you? Strange and wonderful. There you go. But then we came to a point where I'd been spending so much time out there and it was like, okay, we gotta talk to the other people that we go and have dinner with and stuff on the ranch.

And so we made little plan because we didn't want to lie, but we also some works on people as crap. Yeah, we're embarrassed. Why? And so we were like, can you tell me what made you feel embarrassed? So Abby, there's certain people who identify as polyamorous and that's part of their sexuality, like that's part of their sense of themselves in the world. And that is so different from what happened for us. So for us, we didn't even really know anything about it. It was something that happened. We'd heard that term, but we didn't really have thought about it. We didn't really have a lot of language about it or knowledge of how

that other people did this and how they might do it. So it was just the weirdness, like just what you would imagine, just the now we have to go and say we're really weird. And the culture doesn't really go for that. I mean, now parts of it are, but it's still considered super weird. The way being gay was considered super weird. I was growing up in Provo, Utah, you know? But we had this speech we made up.

We're going to go down and we can't ruin I just crafted it, right? Because we're, of course you did. We're like, we're going to say we have developed a very strong family feeling. Like, we feel very connected in a family way. Yeah, it's like a family. It's a family. It's a family. It's an important word. We rehearsed it. Then we went down to dinner in the other place and when we walked in, someone had his his phone open and he was reading about polyamory.

There was like someone we kind of knew had done a post on Facebook that day about I'm interested in this thing called polyamory and he was reading it out loud as we walked in with our family speech memorized. And Karen has compared to us much lower impulse control about the truth. Here we go.

She also likes to get the job done. Yeah. She doesn't want to dilly-dally. She also, when things are awkward, just runs away. So she roysed up on her hind legs. As we walk into the room and hear this conversation, and she goes, well, I love rowing. And I love Marty.

I'm going to go get Thai food. I love it. There were about eight people in the room at that point. Amazing. The door slams after Karen. And Rowan. There was a long silence. And we were like, it's sort of like a family.

Oh, it's so good. And so interesting because you are pioneering in many ways because so many of us, especially that we feel like we don't fit into the societal norms, we then have to look around and see what's available. And you're like, I guess it's polyamory, but it doesn't totally fit.

So we gotta try to make it our own thing. I think you feel this away about sexuality, Glennid? Yeah, totally. I just think that that's so freaking cool that you had the courage to do that. I need to know what happened after, like who broke the awkward silence after you said, like a family, like what happened then?

I think I've repressed it. So I have no memory. We set down. And I think I've repressed it. I have no memory. It's just like, and I remember sort of looking at it, and I think I blurted out something. And this was true at the time. Nothing's happened. Nothing has happened. Because if it did, the way of integrity would have demanded that I tell it. Exactly. And Ro looked at me like, why did you have to bring that up? You know that's what they're all thinking, and I was like, my nothing happened.

I was like, I'm not talking about things happening. Right, and I don't want to talk about happenings. Yes. happenings. No happenings, it's like a family. It's a fire hose of sisterly familial. That's what I'm doing. Can't you see that?

And you said Martha, because didn't you say this about Karen too in the beginning? You were like, I wanted anything else other than this thing to be true. I know. Except that it was unjiable, right? I have all I am doomed to be a cultural outcast. I went to Harvard and chose to have a baby with Down syndrome, moved to Provo, Utah, capital of Mormonism to become a lesbian. Then I left Mormonism and started practicing polyamie.

She's why you are our favorite person on the earth. Yeah. She's returned to the ways of her ancestors. My grandfather had three wives. I have one more to go. So we were talking about this this morning. You haven't talked about this a ton publicly and Abby was wondering if tell them what you're saying. Yeah, so you know early days in my lesbian acknowledgement and understanding, I found myself having to teach the rest of my people

about homosexuality because I was the only gay person they had ever known. I was like a zoo animal, you know, and like they ask really inappropriate questions and things that heterosexual couples never have to deal with like exactly. You know, how do you have sex with a woman? These kinds of questions, I wonder how similar your experience is with that in terms of having to teach the people like us right now. Like here we are, asking you, hopefully not two personal questions. Yeah, do you feel like that? Like, you're undisplied to answer people's curiosity questions. Isn't it interesting that it is, I've thought about this before that there's such a strong

similarity between, you know, like the health gaping and then this is that it's all people want to talk about is the sex. Yes. And actually, articles in the New York Times about Thrupples and they've even said, you know, they remember one of them even said, obviously, everyone just wants to know how the sex works. You know that thing about like you're coming out as gay to your parents and then they don't have to think about you having sex, even though if you bring a heterosexual partner home, they don't have to think about the sex. It's so funny that our brains automatically need to know that part and it's like, don't you want to know about how awesome it is to have a fight when there's a referee?

Yes, we do. Oh, this is exactly what we wanted to talk about. That's what we want to talk about. But can we just pause and repeat what Rowan said? Because I don't think that people think about this enough. That the coming out process is not just stressful because you are telling your parents you like another gender or the same gender.

It's stressful because you're sexualizing yourself in front of your parents because you're sitting down and saying, I am a sexual being who wants to have sex and straight kids don't have to have that conversation. It's sexualizing yourself in front of people over and over and over again. Yeah. That is tremendous. Absolutely.

That is so well put. And we actually talked about this before we went on in it. We were like, oh, what do we do? What do we do? And we decided that if we were asked a direct question about how the sex goes, we would say, it's great. It's great. It's great.

And we would never do that. Yes. We've been in that situation enough that we would say, it's great, it's great. We would never do that. We'd been in that situation enough that we would never do that. When I came out to my mom, my mom's first question to me was, well, do you have one of those strappy things? Oh my God. Oh my God.

And I said, I don't know how I got the, I had the most wise download of the history of my life in this moment. And I said, have you asked any of my other siblings about the actual acts of sex? And she said, no, I said, do you wanna start now? So it was my beautiful way of not having to answer that question, it's specifically.

Wow, good, good, good, move. Can I tell you about Karen telling her, mother's in her 80s about the three of us? Yes. It will never be a story that starts with can I tell you about Karen that I won't say yes to. Oh my gosh. She is hilarious. So Karen goes down to Florida to visit her mother who's 80 what? Yeah, she is.

She's getting on. And she says, okay, so this is because Karen doesn't care. Karen is the most countercultural person is because Karen doesn't care. Karen is the most countercultural person. She just doesn't care. She's like, so Mom, now there's three of us. And Dada Dada, she's just telling her, and then this is what her mother says, they walk in silence along the beach for a few more moments. And then her mother says, oh, your father and I never felt the need for that. That's so awesome. Oh, it doesn't matter, beautiful way. That's kind of beautiful.

It's non-judgment. It's she thought about it for herself and then didn't judge it. She just thought, oh, yeah. Well, and I think that's why Karen is so relaxed about being counter-cultural because she knew for a fact that her parents would love her no matter what. And then her, all her siblings would love her no matter what.

And so yeah, the whole getting interrogated and having to defend yourself and everything, she knew that wouldn't happen to her with her most intimate people. We did that too. Yeah, with your, yeah. When I am open with the people I grew up with, they don't like it. Most people will really like to watch. Yeah. I'm Jonathan Menevar.

I'm a podcast producer and someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I think that's why I'm not a fan of the same thing. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy.

And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food. I was like, Girl, why not doing that anymore? You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy.

A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts. Can you talk to us about, we're obsessed with fighting because we just, I don't know. It's just, it tells us more about a relationship that anything else I feel like are conflict. Yes.

So I do want to know how that goes. Just take us back to your last fight. Is it two of you that start fighting and then someone else's reference? Oh yeah. So can you talk to us about how this works? It's about to talk about it. It's the best. You tell.

It's never, we've never had a fight where all three of us have been fighting. And it just naturally every time happens, it's the best. Like to me, conflict feels very chaotic and scary. And I never know, like it could go anywhere. It could go really bad, right? And so it's just honestly, it's the best case scenario. It's someone sitting there going, oh no, you do do that, actually, row.

Or, no, that is exactly what you said 10 minutes ago about it, you did say that. Or no, no, no, Marty, you actually do sound passive aggressive. And I didn't believe it either. So it's somebody telling the truth as they see it, who loves you, Bobby. Who loves you, blah.

Who's invested in the thing resolving. So when you get into those arguments that couples have over and over, it breaks the pattern. Because there's somebody else like jumping into state, no, this is what you do, Marty. You get all frantic and then you I do. And both of them are like, mm-hmm hard to fight with that. There's a majority. So actually, I've changed more in positive ways. Oh my God, more than ever before in my life in the six years the three of us have been together because I'm outnumbered.

Yeah. And we're all outnumbered. And so when you've got two people telling their absolute best truth to you, it shows you your blind spots, it shows you where, oh, okay, it makes you think more and it makes you change more. And we're like, how do people do this with two?

Oh my God. That sounds interesting. It would be like a two-legged stool that just does not work. The stability of the three. No offense. No offense. No offense.

We don't have your exact situation, but we do have three parents. Yeah. Yeah. And we also are a ecosystem that is very close. And so we do talk about how the hell do people do with two people. Like that's a really great point that it's

an ecosystem of love. Yeah. That's a, no better than family. That is. It's like an ecosystem of love. It's a fire hose of an ecosystem of familiar systems. It's an ecosystem run by fire hoses. Yeah.

So what is most of your conflict about? R's is, I'm controlling things too much. Would you say that's it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or you're being too loud. What are you? What are you? I think at the moment it's probably parenting stuff.

Like we're having to dig into all those unspoken expectations about how we're going to raise this child. They're not unspoken. Can you speak them all the time. They weren't. They weren't. They were unspoken before she came along. And now it's like we're having to confront all the things that we did.

So I had three kids in my early 20s. And I was chronically ill the whole time I had massive chronic pain. So they were kind of raised on a king size bed where I'd throw food occasionally. I told them as they grew that I was going to write a self or a parenting book called, crawl over there and get your own damn bottle. It would be a massive sell. Oh yeah. But here's Rowan. She's like, what do you think about parenting? And I'm like, I don't know, a feed on. I was, I'm like, I've read 16 books. And you know, they must have no screen time and they must do this and we're going to do this and we're going to use this sort of philosophy. What do you think? I've

read on like nine different philosophies and I think if we just bring this from that style and this one I'm thinking you have never raised a baby and that is factually correct. And so like I just got back from South Africa and all of them had been sick while I was gone and The baby was sick, but then the baby got well and all the adults got sick and I came home and I was like no screens Right, I've learned my lesson and Rose like I don't even care anymore Literally fuck it whatever We're coming together Tell me how that happened how did the the baby, like what were the conversations

around the baby who is the most suspicious? And also Martha, can you tell me how old your children are from your previous marriage and how old your current younger child is? So to say this, I just, we need to set up a few things around age. Yeah, it's just because she had her kids really young. So it's going to surprise you when you hear how old.

I was 22 22 24 and 26 and now they are 30 35 34 Yeah, it's six. It's impossible. So they're no longer in the picture in terms of being in the house Well, my son is because he has Downs in Rome. Got it. He lives with us. So yeah, and he's very cool. Yeah, I love him. He is.

And I have to tell you, he was living with Karen and Nate when Ro entered the picture. And I thought, has this gonna fly with him? And let me tell you, Adam doesn't pretend anything. And so I thought, oh, is he gonna think this is so weird? Is he gonna be upset? During the whole time that we were sitting on the couch together, he got so happy.

Yeah, he just walked around grinning. Just with his huge smile. And they also say it. All my children were like, cool. They are the coolest people. Like, if they, one of them, I can't remember which one, probably not Adam even said, we wondered if he had something like that going. Yeah.

They were like, didn't you, were you doing that all along? They were like, they were just like, they were, they were like, something you would end up with. Exactly. They were so cool. And people told us, you're chilled, they told me, your children will hate you for never for this. I mean, Rose, not that much older than they are.

And I'm like, you don't know my kids. They're pretty cool. So then we're in Africa at that time. And we go on these gate, we go out to see the animals and we're silent. We have this silence thing. And we come back from this silent thing where we've been seeing like right up close to lions and elephants and rhinoceros and and things and row is crying. And I'm like, what happened out there? And she told me, do you mind that I'm telling you? No, I love it. I know. She said, I think something connected with me out there. She said it was like a little grub of consciousness. And it said, I'd like to come down and could you please be my mother? And she was just sobbing. She's like, I don't know if it's right to bring a child into this world.

And I'm like, well, you know what? If anybody solves all the problems humans created, it will be humans. So if the right humans need to come, and this little grub was quite insistent. Yeah. So then we came and we did IVF. Yeah, so I was, I was in my late 30s at that point, mid late 30s, so it was like now and now we're never kind of situation. And Marri and Karen were great about it. They're both older than me and they were both pretty amazing about prospect of having another tiny person. Oh my gosh.

That was so exciting. You are down playing this so hard. There's so many needles involved in IVF. Oh. And she was so tough and Karen and I had to learn to give shots. It's a long fun story for us. And we had this little girl during COVID times. And God, how do people raise a child with less than three women? It's

maize balls. Plus Karen's a morning lark and we're both night owls. So we've got the whole shift covered. And this kid is just the absolute, I mean all kids are right? But we didn't have anything to do except sit in the house and avoid COVID and it was awesome. Oh, God. It's so beautiful. I want to ask you about something which I've been thinking, which is jealousy. And I've been thinking about this differently because like six months ago, we were doing a podcast and Polyamory came up and I found myself saying, well, I mean, that's, it's great for everyone else, but I mean, it's just like not for me. And I was like, what an asshole. It sounded to me like what people say used to say about being gay. Like, oh, I guess it's fine, but like not for me. Like, there was a little bit of judgment in it.

And whenever I'm being judgmental, I always think there's something I don't understand. So I started reading all these books on Pollyam, right? Which, by the way, I still have cultural conditioning because if I'm out to dinner reading, I like hide the book. I would too. Okay, you would. You probably know more about it than we do, Glennon, because we haven't read anything. I was just thinking I should read those damn books.

Yeah, so I'm reading this book called The Ethical Flat. And there's one called More Than Two, which is really good. But when we talk about jealousy, most people, so their reason I could never be in a polyamorous relationship because of jealousy. And the way this one book framed it was like, it's interesting because we as human beings decide that jealousy is something that we cannot experience.

But that's not how we feel about anger or sadness or heartbreak. We don't not do this. So we don't want to do this about anger or sadness or heartbreak. We don't not do this. We don't want to do this. Because they might cause heartbreak. We just go in. We know that heartbreak expands us and we can work with it. And then we continue. And that is the way that jealousy was framed in this book about polyamory.

Like jealousy does come up, but it's not like just because jealousy might be there that it's a deal breaker for a relationship. So do you all experience jealousy and how do you navigate it? Not necessarily like sexually, but just like time and like all of the things, attention. Yeah, right. You know, how do you navigate all of that?

I was really jealous at the beginning because Karen and Marty had been together for so long and they had so many patterns about how they would just check in with each other on the phone and everything and I was like, no, we have to have a group thread and you've got to call me sometimes and you've got to tell me that your day is going fine. Because I was really scared that they were the unit and I was the third wheel coming in and that was really scary to me because it didn't feel solid. And so I had a lot of jealousy and a lot of demands.

In the first, I guess, couple of years, which is fine. We were like, yeah, we get that. But I've been doing myself help thing, my whole career. Karen had done it all too. And one of the things that we've done is that when we had negative emotions, we have like ways of dealing with it,

psychological ways of finding out what's really going wrong. And it's always a fear of scarcity. It's fear there won't meet enough for me. Well, I'm not big enough or good enough or whatever it is. And we've been working on those things for years and years and years. So we knew each other. And because we knew each other so well,

we both knew that we both loved Rowan. And there's something called compulsion I've heard about. Have you read about this button? No, it's a Hollywood. Okay. Yes, it's the one polyward I know. And it means compassion, I guess, but it's the joy in watching two people you love, love each other. So for Karen and me, because we'd done all this, and because, you know, like we really were the ones who had all the advantages, like the solid couple. And it was a weird situation for all of us, but Ro was the one who was breaking the pattern, right? So we would just talk about how to help Ro feel like it was solid because we both knew it was. We knew that we were solid, we knew we were solid with Ro. We had no questions. And that, I think,

it eventually just rubbed off on you. Yeah, I mean time, I mean time was a huge part of it. But I think the other thing that we do well is that we have a lot of rituals in our lives that involve the three of us. And so, through the day, and so, you know, I think, like, because Marty and I work together all the time. And so, if someone was going to get jealous at this point, it would be Karen, because she's doing different sorts of things with her day. And sometimes she does feel, you know, like, I need some more time, you know. But can I talk about the rituals?

Yeah, I want to know them. Please. So the first thing that happens in the morning, well Karen gets up at the baby because she gets up at like, I don't know, two or something. Oh my godly. Out and out. She gets around five or six. That's the middle of the night.

So she's up at the baby. And at nine a.m., we try to be up and have enough caffeine in us to be functioning. And we have what we call morning communion, which is at least an hour long of just being together, the baby's zipping around and we're just connecting. What we realize, what I realize, I guess, I want to speak for Ro, is that the only thing worth living for is hanging out with

the people you love. Period. That's, that is the joy of life. So it's just time to be together. And then we work and do things. And then we, starting at five, Adam, decreed, we shall have a, together time. People judge us for this too because he's 30 something. He likes it. He likes a glass of wine.

It's what he likes. So he calls it wine time. So we all gather for wine time. And that's an hour. Then we have dinner together. It's actually been so helpful because Adam, he's quite regimented in how he wants to spend his day. It's rubbed off on us. And I think we didn't necessarily mean to do this for the sake of our relationship,

but that's like the downstream kind of effect. So then after dinner, Ro goes off to put the baby down. And Adam and I watch TV together, we've been doing it forever. And then we have Trinity Time, which is the best part of the day. Trinity Time involves television, a little television, and some cuddles while we watch television. Yes, that's just being together and cuddling while we watch television. And it is like you get up in the morning,

you're having a bad day, you're feeling unwell or whatever you think. But Trinity time is coming. Trinity time will come. Trinity time will come. Trinity time. Your day sounds like freaking heaven. Pretty good. So good. Yeah. It's really good. Do you guys have any rituals like that? Well, I think I'm thinking of Sunday snuggles. Sunday morning is don't get out of bed. Don't go do all the things. Just stay in bed. Read Sunday snuggles, coffee and bed. I would also say our mornings are pretty ritualistic, where whoever wakes up first usually takes the dogs out,

makes the coffee, the other person comes up within a few minutes. I have a little window seat. That is cozy. The dogs know about that like 20 minute time, so they come up and snuggle with me. And we have our evening too, if there's no soccer, that everybody sits down together and it's family time. We have dinner together as a family almost every night. And there's nothing more important and wonderful to us

than the TV couch time and night. That's what I live for. My whole life is just about trying to get back to the couch. That's all I'm exactly. Yeah, me. just about trying to get back to the couch. That's all I made. Exactly. Yeah. Right. I was just, when I was in Africa, we'd get around that fire pit and we'd tell stories. And I really think that we are so fixated on TV because we evolved to do that. And TV is a flickering light that tells stories. And so we gather together. And it's like gathering around the campfire. And what you feel is the love of the village. And that, I mean, it's just having a larger group taps into this primordial thing. The culture says it's going to be the myth of courtly love. Ever since not courtly love, courtly love. It's from like the 14th century when people decided that

being obsessed with your romantic partner and trying to fulfill every single one of each other's needs would be the gig. But a lot of cultures have not done it that way. And to me, rediscovering the feeling of a village around the fire, we have a little village in our house. And we could not do it with one person less. It would just be so much sadder. That's so beautiful. It's sort of like a family. It's so weird. I just break it.

Nothing's happened. Nothing, of course, nothing's happened. And no one's thinking about happenings. No. No. But I just, I mean, if Martha Beck, she's, you just reframed my hours and hours of TV time as camping.

I'm camping. That's all I'm doing. I'm experiencing the outdoors. I'm, it's returning to the village. Yeah, deeper than that, Glen. And you are responding to the primordial urge for human bands to form emotional bonds around a flickering light. It is deeper than nature.

It is evolutionarily essential. Can you email me that so I can tell the kids that's what I'm doing when I'm watching real housewives. Absolutely, well, we've got to know recorded. So that's great. I'll come to the house and lecture them. I'll come to the house and lecture them.

We'll kind of go, okay, professor. Can you stop talking for just a second? No, I got a lot out of that. Now I'm out dozey. Yes, exactly. So for those people out there listening who maybe have never heard of this way. What are some things that will inform them on how to have conversations with people? Like, what are some things that have been hurtful to you? What's stupid as things do people say?

Yeah. That hurt your feelings. How does the six work is always that one? Like the same way you feel Abby with your mouth. It's like that thing of like, well, I don't have to talk about that? We've had people say to us, oh yeah, I know a threple. And boy, do they have rules? There's two men and a woman and she gets to make all the rules and tells people what, and that's what I get it. And I'm like, no, you really don't. So people make assumptions about what that is. And they're always focused on the sex. And they always think that it's like kinky sex. I think it's just like that thing when I don't, I think it's just the way that humans

sort of come apart and come together, clump and everything is always unique. And so I don't know that there's anything we're doing that that would even apply to other thruples or other forms. necessarily. I mean, they don't know. We have not studied the matter. No, it's just your way of love. It's a way of love. Like gravity. It's so beautiful. I feel like this whole hour has been this, but what have you learned through this way of love that you think would be helpful for people in different ways of love, that everybody can learn from to deepen their own relationships.

For me, it's that you keep your heart 100% open and be willing to be told where your blind spots are, and to listen when somebody else, even if they're upset, listen to them. And again, I wouldn't have learned that if we hadn't had the referee system, but it's made me open my heart much more non-judgmentally to everyone, all my friends and everything. And we don't follow cultural rules. So breaking a cultural rule is not bad. Someone's broken a cultural rule. I want to know what they were feeling and thinking at that moment because the culture is not bad. Someone's broken a cultural rule. I want to know what they were

feeling and thinking at that moment because the culture is not interesting to me. What they're going through is very interesting to me. And that openness, it's made me much softer and more gentle. And it's really helped me be a better person for sure. Yeah, I think when you're a weirdo against your will, it does help you develop compassion, an imagination and everything. It's the same with being gay. I often think it must be really hard for people whose nature lines up exactly, like just happens to line up exactly with the rules of the culture. Right. So that everything that feels natural to them is normal, you know, and in every way, and

they want to do accounting order, you know, like, I don't know, good examples, but like, and then it must be so hard to understand people, you know, does queerness make the transition to this kind of way of love easier? It feels to me like you already had to navigate so many things outside of cultural acceptance that does it help this transition to this way of love? That's interesting because we'll have really different experiences of that because you had already sort of, and you're older than me, and so you were coming out in a different time and everything. For me, I was mostly dating guys when we got together,

but bisexuality had just, it was sort of obvious to me that it had barely been worth stating, like I was very lucky and that I grew up in a very progressive sort of family and city and as your parents. Yeah, oh my God, absolutely. So when we were first together, we were on this ranch and one thing's about being out in nature

is it's very silent and there's not a lot of hubbub and it's hard to hide what's going on in a house. Yes, so we would do this thing. Rosebomb came to visit. She was in the guest room. Oh God. But we would make Rose go to sleep in the, in the family room. And then she would tip toe out and come into the bedroom after her mother

was asleep. So when she finally came out to her mother and she said, yeah, we're all in a relationship. Her mother's like, so you don't have to tip toe around the house. So how did your mom, what was her ultimate reaction? Like she already knew, obviously, but how did your mom, what was her ultimate reaction? Like she already knew, obviously, but how did she handle it? She was incredible. She's awesome. She's just wonderful. The thing was, she'd already spent enough time

with the three of us to feel the energy. And I think that's like 95%. It is. It's like everything else is just structures in your brain, being around people and laughing with them. And, you know, I was, I'm very lucky. Well, and they feel the undeniable of it. That's what happened with us.

When I was on the phone with my mom describing it, she was losing it and afraid of it. But then when she came and saw our family, there was no discussion after that. It was just undeniable. Yeah. And that is the truth. And if queerness gets people there, then thank God. Get there some way because life is hell if you don't have

that ability to recognize love and participate in it, whatever form it takes. And love that life is heaven when you're so open and there are no categories that you love everything that wants love and you love people loving each other like I know from From watching my kids. I have two Abnon binary child and a daughter and they've both found amazing partners and one thing I know is there's nothing so beautiful as watching your child Be with someone really great. So I hope, you know, that's always my aspiration for how I show up with Rose parents,

but they're so great, they're just so great. And me, I was already out on my ear. I had no family of origin. I'd broken all the rules. I mean, Mormonism had defined the enemies of the church in the latter days as gay people, intellectuals and feminists. Oh, I screwed my thought.

Oh, damn. Damn. I mean, the Antichrist, the devil incarnate. Really? I have literally been called the Antichrist in public, and I always, I responded, I thought he would be taller. Ah, yes. So I already was on the outside of culture. And so in a weird way, we were in a non-culturated bubble. And it really helped us come together and bond

for those first couple of years. Yeah, I think if we'd been living in a city or been like we were 40 minutes from the nearest part of milk, you know, at that point, there really was a lot of time to not be among other people and not have the culture reinforced and the weirdness of it reinforced. It was just us and I don't know if we would have made it without that time. I think about that like decades ago, I feel like one of your books mentioned that the importance of separating yourself completely for a while from culture, to find out who you are. Yeah, that's a really ancient spiritual practice from all over the globe. And I think everybody should get a chance to do it.

I was lucky to be able to physically move out there. And when you are by yourself, and I think you can do it, baby, you have to create really strong boundaries. The pandemic actually helps some people, I think, because when you are on your own for long enough, you start to feel what is natural for you. And if you're in nature, nature pulls you toward your nature. And you start to come out of culture

and then only love makes sense. Period. That's it. Rowan, you said, we do not live normal lives. We have a very abnormal family, and we are very, very happy. Ah! I just love it. So many people are striving towards normal because that's what we're promised we'll make

us happy. And it's just so beautiful to sit here. You say we are abnormal and very, very happy. It's palpable. We can feel it. And we just always talk about imagining the truest, most beautiful relationship or family. And you clearly have done it. And I think it's gorgeous. Thank you. Yeah, it's the gates are open, whatever happens. And that's the fun of it is you never know what adventure life is going to bring when you say, I will live on this thread of truth that I feel is my self.

It's like you're pulling this thread towards you. And for me, it's spirit, right? It's very spiritual. And it will pull you into such adventures. And you will say, this is too weird I can't do it, but look what you guys did. Under so much cultural spotlight. And look at the two of you, you're just absolutely radiant.

Well, I have to actually acknowledge Martha, you were one of the first people that we called in search of help and advice because we didn't know how to kind of approach our love in the public eye. And like you, Glennon at the time, and I was learning about deep integrity and speaking the truth and never lying early in my sobriety days, you just gave us the best piece of advice, which is just all you need to do is love each other. Out loud. Out loud. Love each other out loud, she said.

It's the truth. I think in what we're talking about in our marriage and with your life and the way that you're loving, it's just, that's, I really think that that might be the only way. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think it is. I think so many ways have been tried and they are look around us. They are disastrous. Why do you follow the culture when you see what the culture has done, right? And ultimately, like the gender of the person we love or the number of people in the relationship, any of these things are so fickle. It's so much less important than the quality of how our lives feel. Yeah. What would we do have many listeners who are in polyamorous or who identify as polyamorous, which is another beautiful thing that I think you mentioned earlier.

There are people who are circumstantially polyamorous. Like you. Memoir. I'm circumstantially polyamorous. Oh, Memoir. I don't know. I like what Rowan said earlier. I like a weirdo against my will. I think that's another good way. I'm not getting a shirt. That was saying. Yeah, excellent. So either one, maybe one could be the subtitle. But that's a whole nother thing. I mean, we have friends who have come to us and said, listen, just like along the way I realized that my identity

is queer, I have realized that my identity is polyamorous. I was made to love. And at first, people think, oh, wait, what? But really, the only reason we say, wait, what? Is because we've been culturally conditioned to change the way that it monogamy. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So it's two different things. Correct? It's an idea and a circumstance that can happen when Karen comes home and says, I'm a lover throwing. Yeah, and we shouldn't presume to speak for, you know, anyone other than ourselves because it is circumstance for us.

And I think that it's quite a different thing for many people in the way that they want to love. And I don't know how other people experience. But I do love that queerness has sort of broken the cages, being gay when we were growing, or when I was growing up. It was so weird that they wouldn't even put it on, there was a show that had one gay character, and they wouldn't show it in Utah. That's how bad they were about it. So then they was like, okay, you're exactly like straight people, only both the same dinner. So, okay, we can handle that.

And that becomes, do you have one of those strappy things? Yes, right. And definitely. Who wears the strappy thing? I was like, who wears the pants? Yeah. We both wear pants. Yes.

Yeah. But yeah, and then there's something going on. I honestly, I said, this whole thing is spirit. My whole life is about spirituality. And for me, the soul is genderless. And so I think that's what's happening is that the soul is being let out of its cultural cage and kids really brave kids are saying,

I am none of the things culture says I am. Let me tell you about myself, because that's, that's the person you're dealing with. And if you love a cultural image, a paper doll that I put out to fit the culture, you don't love me, because you don't know me. And I think we've all been living like that for centuries. And, and I think is shifting now in a way that is deeply spiritual as a homecoming to the soul. Yeah.

Don't you think because you have a non-binary kid? You said, right? We feel like the queer elder aunties now. So whenever anybody has a non-binary kid, we get the call first and they're like, can you clear auntie them? So whenever somebody tells me now that their kids hold them, they're not by near, I just think of that kid as like, oh yeah, that kid's really smart. Doesn't it just feel like?

They're a profit. Yeah. Because it's like, Emperor has no clothes. It's like, gender isn't freaking real. So it would make sense that some kids are gonna see the matrix early and be like,

oh, I see that I've been assigned a role to play, but I actually don't feel like playing that role for you. Yeah. Right. That's super smart. So this is someone who actually knows what's going on. Exactly. I also have to put in a shout from my kid in law, my daughter married a non-binary person

too. And the non-binary people that I know are amazing. And I don't know if all non-binary people are amazing, but they am. These ones are. It's what you have. Well, talk about anybody who has really tried to excavate themselves.

And if they're young, to me, I'm like, that is a person that is really trying to not just figure out themselves, but the world, and seeing all of these bullshit barriers that were all told and made to live within. Well, you two are amazing. Tell me both of you, we do this thing called the next right thing, where we just tell people one little thing they can do, which let's just tell people one little thing they can do

to do a homecoming, as you said one little thing they can do to do a homecoming, as you said earlier, to return home today to who they are. Because really this is just all about authenticity. Everything you're talking about is just about being true to self. Yeah. What can people do today to return to themselves? So with our podcast be wielded and it's always about like where's the culture here, what is the culture telling us to do because it's so invisible. And so the thing that always occurs to me with this is I ask myself if I want to find a way to come home is it's really simple but it's like is this optional because I think we forget how many things are optional but that feel compulsory. And so sometimes I'm just like,

wait a second, I think that's one of the optional things, like going out to that thing or being among humans or something gross like that. It's optional. You took mine. Oh no! I'm going, say something profound. But I am a methodology. I have a methodical. It's a graph. I have a self-help mother. Okay, so, right-a-list of things you have to do. And then, read through it and see if there's anything you don't want to do.

And you can go, like, write as many things as you can until you get to something you don't want to do. And then ask yourself, do you really have to do it? Exactly what she said. So if, and when you find something that you don't want to do, and you don't have to do, don't do it. That's good. I love that.

I love it. I'm doing that today. Oh gosh. She will be up to it. She's the list maker. She's the list maker. I'm going to get out. My easel.

And guess who gets to do the things that she doesn't want to do and doesn't have to do You need another person I I decided what every woman needs is a wife, but now I'm thinking what every woman needs is to That's good. Yeah, you are a dream. We love you so much. Thank you for trusting us and sharing this hour with us. For the rest of you, this week when things get hard, don't forget we can do hard things and make your list

and cross off whatever you don't want to do or have to do and return home to yourself. See you next time. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple podcasts, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it. If you didn't, don't worry about it. It's fine.