We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Maybe We CAN Be Loved w/o Being Known: Ashley C. Ford

Episode Date: December 11, 2025

Ashley C. Ford returns to the pod today for a deeply personal, raw, and revelatory conversation about how we can love the world, our people, and ourselves through this trying moment. We explore:  - Why we’re no longer certain that “to be loved is to be known”;  - Why we resent our people when they don’t understand us—and how to find more love, peace, and acceptance in our relationships;  - Abby’s realization that she doesn’t need to “fix” Glennon’s sadness; sometimes partnership looks like staying steady while your person feels it all.  For those of us who feel lost, afraid, or alone: Ashley’s wisdom and clarity are exactly what we need. Snuggle in, open your minds and your hearts. We love you.  For more of Ashley on We Can Do Hard Things:  52. FORGIVING & FINDING PEACE with ASHLEY C. FORD 53. How to Love Yourself & Let Yourself be Loved with Ashley C. Ford About Ashley:  Ashley C. Ford is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, SOMEBODY’S DAUGHTER: A MEMOIR. She is also the former co-host of The HBO companion podcast Lovecraft Country Radio, and of Ben & Jerry’s Into The Mix. Ford lives in Indianapolis, Indiana with her husband, poet and fiction writer, Kelly Stacy, and their chocolate lab Astro Renegade Ford-Stacy.

Hi, Pod Squad. Hi. What in the world do you want to tell them about this episode? So I think what I want to say about the episode you're about to listen to is that, first of all, it is with Ashley Seaford. Ashley Seaford is one of our dear friends. And the reason that I asked her to come on is that actually the three of us, you, me, and Ashley sat on our couch a few months ago. and Ashley expressed her experience of this moment and how she was making it through and thinking through it and feeling through it and how she was dealing with her relationship

with her husband through it and her rawness and transparency and brilliance just is what I needed more than anything in that moment and I left that day with Ashley thinking we're having this conversation on the pod because I want the pod squad to experience from Ashley what I got to experience in my home, which was renewal, wisdom, a new way to look at things, a new way to love the world and my people and myself and how to see it all. So here it is. Here's the conversation I've been wanting for you all to hear for months. Ashley is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, Somebody's Daughter, A Memoir, One of my favorite books. She is also the former co-host of the HBO

companion podcast lovecraft country radio and of ben and jerry's into the mix Ashley lives in Indianapolis Indiana with her husband poet and fiction writer Kelly Stacy who we love love and their chocolate lab astro renegade Ford Stacy after you listen to this episode absolutely fall in love with Ashley and want to hear every single thing she's ever said you can go back and listen to I think we've done two more episodes with Ashley in the past but for now just snuggle in open your mind, open your heart, Ashley C. Ford. And also for those who didn't catch on it, the most Ashley thing about that bio is that her dogs, four names, spell out arfs.

Great. She is a literary genius. Enjoy. Actually, listen, okay, so when we were planning this season of the podcast, there were a few conversations that I knew had to happen. Yeah. This just had to happen. And this is one of them, and let me explain why. First of all, I don't know if you've noticed, but we have developed a bit of a tradition, which is around the holidays. You, either you or you and Kelly come to our house and we just sit for hours and you don't know.

know this but you just fix everything for us also just a shout out to kelly oh greatest greatest man ever yeah well listen to this the only good one i was going to say not a lot of competition well speaking of that one of the first times that you and kelly came to our house i told my family i told the kids Ashley's coming with her partner Kelly and so when Emma our youngest went to answer the door she didn't open the door for you she left you and Kelly on the stairs and then she ran upstairs and I was thinking what the hell is happening and Emma goes mom Ashley's partner is a boy Kelly is a boy And this and she was her eyes were like saucers like

And I go yeah And she goes Well what should I do And I said let them in And she goes are you sure Listen Okay that's when Abby and I knew we had some work to do Yeah

Especially because Amma Street Poor Emma for now At least that's what she's You have to prepare. Children are not psychologically prepared for these kinds of things. They're not. You have to prepare them. There are some things that they're not emotionally ready for it. Not for random boys. They're not, they're not ready for that. And listen, dear Amma, would not be the first person or the 50th person to be shocked that I am not a lesbian. that happens to me all the time just all the time and I'm like yeah I get it disappointed Ashley

just a little disappointed and nobody's more disappointed than me Ashley does this make sense to you in my heart I feel like the fact that you are married to a man and that you're not a lesbian is queer oh for sure especially this guy yeah yeah so So we're going to get to Kelly, but this last holiday, you and I were both separately a little bit strugs. Oh, yeah. So we call it in our house, just trying to find any place to stand or understand what was happening in the world. And you and Abby and I sat at a table and talked for hours. And I told Abby that I felt like that conversation was what I needed to just keep going.

And it wasn't that we solved anything. It was just your honesty and transparency and rawness and wisdom. And I thought, I just want some version of that for the Pod Squad. So I don't even have, I've never in 489,000 episodes been less prepared because I've never trusted anyone as much as I trust you to just. facts is that right yeah so that's my dream here is just that the pod squad gets to just hear you talk about life in the world i always if i know two three weeks out before i'm coming anywhere near you i'll text and see if i can come to your home and see the two of you because let me tell it's it's it's heart-filling it's a reminder of joy and connection because it's not like we see each other

in person all the time okay I think at this point we have seen each other in person six times like total and which is so weird to think about right because it's like how is that possible but it's true like I thought about it before I came on the pod today because I was so excited to see you And I was so excited about talking with all of you and I had to think about it, you know, because then it's even less with Amanda, you know, that I've gotten to see her in person. But there's this thread, this connection that's born of something that location and geography can't really hold, right? Like there is a presence that I think we've been able to provide for each other that has not demanded our physical presence. regularly, consistently, or at all times, which is not common.

You know, that is very uncommon, I think, for a lot of people, but not for me, and certainly not in my connection with the three of you. And coming to sit on your couch at that time didn't just feel like, oh, I always try to see Glennon when I come to town. It felt like I really hope that she lets me come because I need to see her. I really need to see her. And I need Abby to be sitting there. And Abby is such a like, Abby's like an oak tree.

She's so steady. And she's just, you know, even when she's having that big emotional, you know, like moment, the way she's able to communicate herself and the way she's able to hold herself, makes me feel steadier, you know? So it's lovely to be around that in those times. And also just like, I don't know. I like that place. I like those burritos and I like that couch.

and do you think 90% of it might be the burritos in the couch it's like it's a strong 60 it's so comfortable like it feel like it just it and and like the fact that I know that when I come there's probably going to be the burritos and there's definitely going to be the couch it's a it's another form of steadiness it's another it's something else that makes the world seem less chaotic in that moment so it yeah I love it. There's a lot of peace in that house. I'm very sensitive to energy and a space. And I don't say that because I'm like particularly woo-woo. That's something that I wish wasn't true. I wish it wasn't true, but it's true. So it just does a lot for me to be with you. In conversation with you, sitting with you.

There's always a moment where I'm like, yeah, they get it. You know, she. gets it and that's a beautiful thing not everybody has access to so I just thank my lucky stars that I do I was thinking this morning about and and what the pod squad needs to know is that Ashley just drops things sometimes and then I smile and then nod and then the rest of the year it's all I think about so let me just give you one example that I remembered this morning Ashley do you remember when we were I don't know if it was this year last year I was complaining about how I have good ideas and and I don't understand why people don't always want them. I think we were talking about Abby and me. And here's what Ashley Ford said. She just gets quiet for a minute. She goes,

Glennon, you're a person who really doesn't love it when men take up a lot of space in a room, like where they man spread or they kind of use their body in a way that is, takes up other people's face she goes what if what you're doing is a form of mind spreading you're just walking up the stairs with your big mind bossing everybody around spilling outside your seat you're taking the aisle armrest with your ideas you know what i'm saying it happens i do it more about this please say more about this i do it as well it's um i think because of the way my brain works and because of, you know, the way people work, I am so much more likely to be able to identify what is annoying me versus how I am annoying.

Oh my God. Personally. So I get real, I can get, I'm a, I can be a very particular person, you know, especially over the last several years where I've like newly started to, um, not just notice, but accept that I have preferences. and what comes up because of that and how I get really annoyed and really frustrated and now I feel this charge

not just to feel that in the moment and try to make it disappear, but express that. But as I have done more of that, it has made me notice, though, I am annoying at times. Like, I do things that are annoying. When I, I know that sometimes when a person thinks about an idea or a concept or even a word, like something big, like love, right?

what they're thinking of when they think of the word love is whatever they've come up with, whatever definition, their life and their experience with love has sort of forced them into. And I know that when I'm talking about love, I am keeping that in mind. I'm thinking about the fact that everybody has a different definition for love. So if I'm talking about love, I don't just want to talk about it like we both know what each other's talking about. I want to make sure we know what we're talking about when we both say that. word. I want to make sure we both know what we mean. Do you know how annoying that is in a conversation to have somebody be like when you're like, you know, well, I just feel, I feel betrayed. And they're

like, well, is that what betrayal is to you? Like what does betrayal look like? It does it, how does betrayal feel in your body? Is, are you sure that that's the feeling that you're experiencing right now? And they don't care about any of that. They just want to tell me about what happened or about their frustration, they're just trying to like give me something. And I am taking what honestly should be a moment where I'm sort of accepting the gift of like their willingness to be vulnerable and open with me with that kind of, you know, trust and care that I will be able to hear them and hold what they're feeling alongside them. And I'm turning it into what? A thought exercise but can i hold on i just have to i just have a few follow-up questions here hit me

because this is very important for me in my marriage is it important let's define one to ten but it's where where is it like where is this the root of i think curiosity is like up here yeah what is what is underneath the curiosity of wanting to i think what it might feel like is like finding alignment with somebody so that we know what we're talking about here and we know what we're going to do and it feels a little bit, where does it stem from? For me, all right, I know where it comes from for me, which is I have a grave fear of being misunderstood and I have a grave fear of being misinterpreted. I have put so much work and so much mental and emotional energy into clarity, into being as clear as I possibly can, because I know

that my reactions to being misunderstood and misinterpreted are some of my most out-of-control reactions. When I am misunderstood and misinterpreted, the feelings that come up in me are not rational. They're not, they're, they are not rational feelings. They are very, like, everything's going to fall apart now. If you don't understand what I say when I'm speaking, how is anything ever going to be okay between us? Like, that's how I feel in that moment. And though intellectually, I know that that's not what's happening. I know that that is technically incorrect. My assessment in that moment is, is incorrect. You know, the, the feeling, that I'm having will not let me hold on to that it's like it's one of those moments where I have

to confront like the truth that my knowing has not evolved into believing it hasn't gotten there yet I know something that I am my body does not yet believe and there's more work to do in that area okay so then what would you call it the impulse that you have to ensure the person you're speaking to is in complete understanding of you and not misinterpreting you, what would you call that process from the feeling of, okay, I need to feel safe in this conversation first and foremost. And then you start speaking and intellectualizing whatever this conversation is. What is that called? Like there's a space here and I don't know what it is. I call it. Survival. It's called survival. I mean, that's part of it. If I were to like break it down, like as you're saying

that. I'm thinking, what would I call it? And the first thing that comes to my mind is the pursuit, the anxious pursuit of connection with anxiety, with anxiety at its core. Yeah, but like with anxiety at its core. Like that's the difference. I know the difference between me being curious because somebody said something that excites me. And I know the difference between me being curious because somebody said something that made me anxious. And those, and I, in my mind, I go, well, I'm just going to ask questions and they can't tell the difference. They can tell the difference. They can tell, they might not be able to articulate it and they might not be able to exactly put their finger on what's happening. And I probably, in a lot of those moments,

am not recognizing it as well. But I have to be honest with myself about the fact that an excited curiosity question does not sound like an anxious curiosity question they don't sound the same actually the reason the reason i was freaking out right now is because when i tell you that two days ago we sat on that couch that's so comfortable to you love that couch and had an uncomfortable moment where abby said something and i asked her a question and my words were curious but my tone and energy was anxious. And then we go through a process where Abby notices that she reacts in her body and then I gaslight her for a long time saying, I was just curious. I'm just asking questions. Yeah. And that is the worst thing you can do to a human. Absolutely. It makes me a fantastic

journalist and a pretty toxic wife at times, to be perfectly honest. And I have to recognize it. And I have to be able to do something about it. You know, Kelly and I have, differences in our communication stuff that comes from a lot. It comes from our backgrounds. It comes from culture. It comes from, you know, what was considered normal here versus what was considered normal there. And the only reason that we've been able to really figure it out and not like completely give up on each other or or give up on ourselves to be perfect, which would be more likely is because honestly at the end of the day, we both are really good at matching effort. and he puts an effort I put an effort I put an effort I put an effort he puts an effort

and so as we keep going along we not only have those moments of seeing that those knowings become like beliefs but we also get to experience the other side of those issues and the and the other side of those discoveries and that is like beautiful it literally feels like planting a garden together and spending all, you know, like spring and summer being like, that's not going to grow. You know what I mean? Like we put it in. We're still going to take care of it.

But it's like clearly I don't think it's growing. And then right when the fall hits, you got a pumpkin patch in the front yard. You know what I mean? And it's like it feels like they came up overnight. And maybe the people in your neighborhood walking by are like, man, these pumpkins came up overnight. But you know who knows those pumpkins didn't come up overnight? you and them you know everything it took and what a precious thing what a it's immaterial you can't buy that

you can't give that away you can only make it together that's so beautiful and and i would i would take a million miscommunications and and little arguments and uncomfortable moments and awkwardness to get to that moment because that moment has always been worth it and I didn't even know that was there. Nobody told me.

Nobody told me that was there. Okay, I have a question under the anxious pursuit of connection. Like, people, what is your thing under the anxious pursuit of connection? Because when you are saying this, I'm like, I can't relate to any of this.

I don't ask any questions. But I have the exact same thing except mine comes out as anger. like if i am having a conversation with john and i'm trying to express something and he says something he's like trying to be in the he's being in the conversation but he's saying like well that's like x and it's like two degrees off what i'm trying to say yeah or or honestly it's like 85 degrees off yeah yeah yeah yeah doesn't matter it doesn't matter if it's two or 85 it's like a full i just go red like i am so angry and i think under it is like this um

it's like an existential threat of forever loneliness yes it's like if you don't understand in this micro thing no one will ever i'm just going to be here on this island forever by myself and no and no one's going to get it and this is it's double clicking on like my ultimate existential fear is that I am by myself, it's all on me. And if no one even understands this problem, who's going to help me solve this problem? Not you, Mr. 2% off. You're never going to help. Like, is that? Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, that's fair. That tracks. Yeah, I, me too. I totally get that. I have absolutely had many of those moments and that same anger. And the anger is always tough because I there's the part of my brain obviously that is so angry and then

there's the other part of my brain that's going whoa what are you so mad for you're crazy lady and those are happening at the exact same time I'm so mad and another part of me is like how is you cool like what is happening like are you okay like and and it sucks like it really really does and the only like I have a million reasons right right like why that is most likely the case I was raised in a home where I was gaslit a lot a lot about a lot of things I was a hyperlexic child who learned to read and speak really early and that brought really great things into my life at school and at home it got me in trouble you know and and I had this thing that it must especially with my mother for so long when my mom had moments of anger it had to be somebody's fault right and it had to be somebody's fault who she could do something about it it couldn't be somebody's fault who had authority over her in any capacity because she can't do anything about that but she can find a way

to make it somebody's fault who's authority she who is under her authority me her child and because of that like I my mom would tell me I was wrong about things I was not wrong about I would be punished for things that I did not say or that had not happened but when you love your parent especially and I had one parent as much as I loved my mom and as much as I continue to love my mom the dangerous thing is that that sort of authority and influence and momentary you know like affections and things like that lead to a situation where you would rather it be you like I really don't want it to be her I want it I want that like when I get in trouble that it is my fault so I have to figure out or find a reason why it's my fault and then I have to go about

the work of fixing that and I got in trouble so much for what I said that I assumed for a really long time that I was just a bad communicator that I was not good at communicating with people about what I thought, what I felt, or even what I meant. And it got to the point where, you know, sometimes you'll say something, and you know when people like immediately twist it to make it so that like you're saying something else, sometimes people are doing that, right? And that would make me be like, oh, I'm not talking to you. Like, you are dangerous for me to speak to because not only might you misunderstand me

the way some people seem to, but you will try to misunderstand me. That's different. So I'm not doing that. My real problems come when it's somebody who I love and who I know loves me and who has always treated me well. And we have this great care and tenderness for each other. And we know we're both kind and compassionate. And then I say something and they say that thing that's two degrees off,

especially somebody who I chose, who I trust. They say that two degrees thing off. And suddenly I am 13 years old again in my principal's office defending myself to high heaven because a teacher tried to make me say that Greece is in Asia. And I was like, no, it's not. No, it's not. And you can't make me say it. I'll never admit it.

You can't. You can't. I'll die on this rack. You know what I mean? Like, that's how serious it was for me as a kid. And that continues to a certain degree. I know that I'm not good at lying and I know that I'm not good at living inside of other people's delusions.

And I know that I will never be able to make a person think that I think something's true that I don't think is true. So I'm like, so it's over. We're going to die. Everything is going to crumble. Yes. Like there's instant, like the look that I can often receive is that it's an immediate horrific betrayal yes it's a betrayal that's what it is it feels to me like and i often say to glennon

but glennon like it's me and i'm like is it yeah and we've just seen your true colors abby yes but here's here's the thing that i want to pause it to you three could it be possible and i don't know what is coming first what the impulse and how the feelings rise up could it be possible that throughout the process of whatever was misunderstood, the feeling that arose, the intellectualization of the betrayal, whatever it might be, could it be possible, and this could very well be no, that it is in fact that we see you. Yes. And it is in fact that maybe we are off a degree or two but maybe it is true that the that you do inhabit the parts of you that I am actually mistaking you for because you have intellectualized yourself in such a way

that you actually cannot see yourself in the full spectrum that we see you know no it's like that no uh listen that is that a reason unfortunately for us Abby is correct Abby you are absolutely correct like that is absolutely Kelly that has happened multiple times in my marriage that what I've realized in the process of all that anger and expressing that anger was that he didn't say anything wrong he didn't say it the way I would have said it he didn't say it the way I wanted him to say it yes he didn't reflect it back to me the way I wanted him to reflect it back to me but he's not wrong and when I actually think about what he said it's not incorrect it maybe feels like more

harsh or or it's deeper than I would have said right I remember the first time my husband when Kelly said to me um I need you to to just try to not be so avoidant for a second and I was like avoidant do you know what I mean like I'm not avoidant like I was very and my reaction to not want it to being upset about being called avoidant was to ignore him for the rest of the afternoon and be like I have a lot of work to do that's right I will not even talk about being an avoidant I have so I was like I have so much work to do I have emails to send I have people to respond to I don't I actually don't have time for this like this is not the center of my world okay I have other things going on like that's what the hyper independence that comes up in me the extreme

hyper independence in those moments and and I have to wait and go back luckily I have somebody who is patient and loving and who knows this about me who sees it who chose it you know what I mean and so he's waiting for me to like get to a point where I'm like sitting there and I'm like I understand what you meant to say I forgive you for saying it in such a fucked up with and I forgive you for upsetting me by sharing reality with me which I did not request so let's let's let's take note of that okay yeah and I forgive you for openly discussing who I am as opposed to who I am presenting myself to be that that is who I have given permission for us to discuss.

Hello, the wizard behind the curtain. I did not ask you to peel that curtain back. Flying monkeys, get him. Catch him. Get him right now. You know, because I get it. Like, I totally understand, like, and I see it sometimes in his face. Like, I see the genuine confusion in the moment of, like, you know,

one of the things that I've had to really come to terms with, is if we had roles in our relationship or in our marriage, and not gender roles, but just, like, roles for, like, you're on, like, a journey. You know, my husband plays D&D, right? So, like, we're on a campaign, and we've got our party together, and everybody has a different role. We're trying to figure out whose strengths are where. I would be the speaker, but he would be the seer.

Oh, wow. He sees everything, and he sees it clearly. And the worst decisions I have ever made when it comes to people. I don't even make bad decisions when it comes to people. But when I do, I was always forewarned by Kelly specifically. Always. And where Kelly is comfortable, anybody can be comfortable. The way that he sees the world, the way he observes things,

he doesn't have the same fear that I do. I'm always trying to communicate, right, like, right? Like, I know what I see, and then I'm trying to show you or give it to you, and I'm trying to do that as clearly as possible. Kelly's just okay with seeing it. He doesn't really have to communicate it to other people. He doesn't really feel like he has to. He will, but he doesn't feel like he has to share it with people.

But if you ask him, he will be honest with you about what he sees. and you might be like well how would you know that or or where did you get that or what showed you that and he it doesn't matter to him he knows what he saw he knows what he sees and i have had to learn how to trust that not just when it's pointed at other people um and trusted also when it's pointed at me you know because nobody has more experience of me than him there's nobody in the world who has more experience of me there's nobody who has loved me better there's nobody who has encouraged me more there's nobody who's cared for me more kindly he's paying attention i would be throwing away i would be throwing away something so valuable if i stopped listening to him and really hearing him

when he tells me what he sees you know because it does mean something even if it's not what I would have said, or how I would have said it. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard Things for free. Makeup was never my language. That's why I love Jones Road Beauty. This makeup is for people who do not want to do makeup. Everything is straightforward, fast, and full proof. Three products, a couple of minutes, and you're ready.

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support the show by mentioning us at checkout terms and conditions apply can i ask a question about because you you touched on something that felt like ooh to me when you said that when so after you have a big reaction part of you is like oh that was bad and i just had a disproportionate illogical irrational response to that thing and then you're in your head about that like i feel like i live half of my life either acting and then in my head there's one part that is like that wasn't justified you were overreacting that was too much why you so crazy and the other part is like sticking up for this part of myself that's like, no, you're not understood. You have a right to be understood. You have right. And so 70% of all of my relationships are in my own head.

So this is my question. Like in order to get out, to get to the place where you're having this conversation externally instead of internally, how did you get out? How did you get out? of that loop of fighting with yourself about it and instead being honest do you have to accept that you're irrational and say that yeah kind of like i mean i call all those voices in my head that's the board right but i'm the chair so like yeah i got to go listen to the board because they got thoughts all right they everybody comes from their different perspectives everybody has a different goal everybody has what they've prioritized as most important my job is to hear them out and then decide what's the best path forward you know so I don't I know that like I get annoyed by like

the voices and like the contradictions and all that stuff but just being annoyed never helped me deal with it and it never did anything but make me frustrated and if there's one thing that I don't know where this comes from in me, but it is probably one of, one of the top inclinations that has really helped me in life. I have a really strong inclination to not keep doing things that aren't working. And so, whatever the opposite of that is. So it just, it wasn't working. So I'm like, if it's not working to just be frustrated, but I'm going to have to hear you anyway, then what would you do in a classroom? You'd make sure everybody got to turn to speak. You don't want everybody talking at once. You make them raise their hands.

You know, and you call on them one at a time. You hear everybody out. And then you're the leader of this space. So you make the next decision. So I do have that part of me that's sticking up for me and being like, you are a strong woman who doesn't need anybody. And you can walk out the door right now and it will not matter. You will always make a life for yourself. Loneliness be damned. Ain't no such thing as being lonely when you got a good. time with yourself you know what i mean like there's that part of my brain going on and then there's the other part that's like he is the best thing that ever happened to you your life would be nothing without him why would you ever walk away from the best person you ever met your best friend who you

love and think about first thing when you go when you wake up in the morning and last thing before you go to bed at night you're really going to mess this up you're really going to let that happen and then there's a part of you that's like you were just communicating you were just trying to i don't understand what the problem is you were just trying to communicate you know like all of is happening and so you go okay everybody quiet everybody quiet all right so yes you're right I'm a strong woman I'm a very capable person I could make any kind of life I wanted and you are also right I choose to make a life with him because he's my best friend and I trust him with my life and I know that he would never intentionally hurt or harm me

and his biggest goal in life always is to make sure that I'm having a better time and that I'm happy. And you're right. I was trying to communicate. I think the issue here is that I was communicating something that was important to me and I was feeling sensitive about it. And when he made that comment, that sensitivity got triggered and my reaction was outsized. So thinking about all of those things and all of the goals that I have in this moment,

what's my best course of action to go talk to my best friend? and tell him I'm sorry for my outsized reaction this is what was happening inside of me at the time I'm going to try to really pay attention to this and make sure I have a better plan for how to deal with my emotions when this comes up again because it will come up again you know and then great as I'm listening to basically the three of us discuss the existential terror that comes when we feel like someone's not understanding us clearly i'm wondering if that beneath that is a basis that we have defined love as i have over time somehow just taken as fact that to be loved is to be known love is being known and for the first time ever i'm listening to you and i'm thinking can that be

not exactly it because I don't even know we do a version of this Ashley ourselves we're memoir like we can't even understand ourselves we're like we're we think to love to set to love ourselves I have to know myself so we spend hours and days writing sentences and paragraphs to explain who we are to ourselves yes we cannot even know ourselves so my question is is there's some sort of shift in definition of love that would help us be less terrified. Is love not just being known? Is love being tended to? Is love being pursued? Is love being nourished? Is love being a million other things than just being known? And would that make us less terrified when we're misunderstood? I think love or part of my definition of love would be the pursuit of knowing a person

with whom you are in intimate relationship with. Like, that would be part of it for me, but love includes so many things. Love includes accountability. Love includes service. Love includes a certain amount of loyalty and attempts to understand. You know, because I think, I don't know who said it,

but somebody said one time that we don't marry our parents, we marry our triggers. I don't remember who said that. but I do think that there's something there that like that like there's part of you in those moments that's just like having to figure out those definitions having to figure out like what like okay in this moment I feel unloved okay so what does that mean about how I define love do I agree with that do I agree with that right now in this moment because it might be a belief I'm holding on to that didn't make it true we know that you know and sometimes we need to go alter those beliefs but we'll

only find that out when they're confronted we only find that out when somebody says or does something that makes us confused in that moment that's why you got to go check in with the board you know that's why you got to hit the board up because they're seeing it from all those different perspectives on your side but even having to look at the different perspectives that you have and how how how that forms your reactions or your beliefs is a practice in thinking about the fact that everybody else is having that. Every other person is also coming up with these definitions, having these voices, you know, to a certain extent, say, you know, is it this? Is it this? Am I this? Am I this? These seem like

they exist, you know, in black and white. And often they don't. They're on a rainbow spectrum. What color are we in? you know not what side what shade and like just trying to figure that out it's tough and i don't always know you know because i have different i i've figured out a lot about myself because i you know i finished liz's book and elizabeth um gilbert yes uh elizabeth gilbert i finished her book and i was like oh no oh no i got some codependency stuff going on i have not addressed bro i got some stuff going on that i have not looked into uh why does she did it easier wasn't it easier when she just wanted us to eat pasta i was like awesome can do on track

i think i was here before you asked i think something around this whole conversation that feels really interesting to me is in the pursuit of being known and that being kind of a North Star for you particularly and how that can navigate you in some of the ways that you think and intellectualize your feelings and whatnot. I think that there's like a self-fulfilling prophecy in it because I find that the more errant I am,

the more closed off you get, And the more closed off you get, the more distance gets created between us in certain moments. And I think I just want to say that out loud that if you if you're Pod Squad or you're listening to this and and your partner triggers every, every bit of you every day, because that's what they're here for. It's like these are the opportunities of why our souls are here to evolve into our next evolution. and we are with this particular person because they are our great mirror and they are our greatest teachers and they are our greatest reflections on how and what we need to work on. And so I just want to say I too want to be known, but more than that, I want to have a close and intimate relationship and one where I'm your person and you're my person and I don't want to have

I too have to work on some codependency things but I want to have the I want to have as little space in between us I know that there is space but I want to know you and I think that it's just interesting this self-fulfilling prophecy that ends up happening working against us Yes. Abby, let me say something. First of all, man, you and you and Kelly might be related some weird way. But also what you're saying is so real, Abby, because one of the things that I was really hoping you was saying that moment is like it's not just that like we're here to trigger each other. We're here to trigger each other in a safe space. We're here to trigger

each other in a space with a person who loves us and who cares about us and who is committed to not giving up on us so that we can work out some of those things with each other, which I think, like, minimizes harm, but it's not going to save us from discomfort, and it's not going to save us from awkwardness or distance or any of those things momentarily. Because the beautiful thing, like, even in that distance is the knowledge, when you eventually have the knowledge that like we're going to come back together the distance is so scary um or at least like i can say that my husband has told me before the distance is scary because there is part of him that's like is she going to come back even though we're married we're committed we've been together

this whole time like but they're still part of it for him and it's that is especially triggered by my hyper independence that's like is she going to come back and that's why you're the distance is so scary for him, but I know I'm going to come back. You know what I mean? And then I also have the part of my head telling myself, and if you don't go back, you're going to be fine. You know what I mean? So there's all of that happening at the same time.

So I'm not having the same experience he's having when we're in those distant places. Now, one of the things that I've had to figure out is that A, is that he's having that sort of feeling when we're distant because I wasn't having it. I did not assume that he was having it. and I did not realize how much it hurt him and how much pain, how much psychic pain he was experiencing in those moments of distance because he genuinely felt that I might not return to our connection and to our beautiful relationship, you know, like, yeah, just genuinely worried that that might happen in a way that I wasn't. But I also had to be able to recognize that while I'm so, like,

I've done so much work to be able to communicate. to communicate clearly to observe people to pay attention to them to be kind to to model to you know all of these things and I have to be honest with myself about the fact that that work has also bred a resentment for anybody who I don't think has done the same work that I have it's bred a resentment because when we have those moments and you don't understand what I'm saying I'm not just like obviously I'm like having that moment of I'm not known I'm not understood this is you know my body feels like it's in danger when I'm not understood because I grew up in a space where my body was in danger when it wasn't when it was misunderstood and a lot of people

have that at different times in their lives or feeling like their livelihood is at stake if they are misunderstood but I've had to recognize that just because I was forced into circumstances that demanded I develop that skill to a certain level in order to survive does not mean that my husband has been negligent in not doing it the exact same way with all of the fervor that trauma provides in those moments. He doesn't have that trauma. He was not traumatized in that way. For him to be at the exact same level I'm at in this space would have meant he's a he's also a white man in America okay for him what he would have had to go go through in order to do you know what I'm saying to just like but to just be where I am right now not necessarily I'm not talking about his

capacity to reach it I'm not talking about whether or not he has the desire to reach it what I'm talking about is the fact that my resentment is coming from the fact that this is not just a skill I love and that I chose. It is a skill that was demanded of me, that I had to develop. And there is some resentment in that had to. But that's a location, Ashley. I think that that makes sense of the loneliness. It isn't just a skill.

It is a skill and it's a backpack of burden that you carry around. It's also a gift to the people that you love. But it's also a place you live. yes it's a place you live and so when you find out that the person that you live with and share a life with you doesn't live in the place that you live that is inevitable that it's going to feel loneliness like you can't even meet me here you've never walked this but I also have to say what I've had to decide is that I would rather figure out my loneliness in some of those hard places then force him into a place of fear and anxiety to meet me there.

I don't want him to be afraid, and I don't want him to be anxious. Those things are going to come up. I don't have to teach him anything. I don't have to bring that into his life to prepare him for the future of it. He knows fear. He knows anxiety. He may not know them to the level that I know them. He knows what they are, and he knows how he experiences them in his body.

Instead of taking the opportunity to hold on to and share some of his steadiness, some of his optimism, some of his, you know, natural affability, I want him to come down to where I am in a place of discomfort, in a place of anxiety, in a place of pain, in a place of fear, because I don't want to be alone there. and he loves me so much that he'll do it he'll try to find a way to come down there and meet me down there it's like trying to screw something into the wall right and the person who's holding in the dark and asking the person who's holding the light to come down and help you turn the screw it's not a two-person job it's just not so i've had to come to the conclusion that there are a lot of the places where I am lonely I am not lonely because people refuse to join me there I am lonely because I have solo work to do in that space and he wants to be there with me he just can't it he wants to be there with me

but it's not necessary and that's not what I want Abby are you crying because I keep Dragging you down to the basement? No, because I don't want you to be alone down there. I'm not Ashley and Amanda are there with me. She's got us, Abby. I just... We're all in the pit. I know, it's just like, it's a lot.

And I feel like, I think it's important because as a person who, like, prides herself on being a caretaker, had like delusions when we first got together that um that i'd be able to yeah make you feel less lonely and more peace and it's just an acceptance like i'm feeling like i can't do that for you and i just i don't want to go down to the basement either i just like but you want to fix it i just wish I just wish you I wish you peace and I wish I could give it to you and it's frustrating that I...

But that's okay, Abby. It's okay to cry about it and be sad about it. It's okay to be sad about it because you need that too. You need to like be okay being sad about the fact that you can't always go meet her exactly where she is. That's good information for you

about who you are and what you want, what you like. how you love you know what i mean like your sadness in this moment your frustration too is not indicative of of anything other than the the great capacity for care and love that you have that you wish it could surpass the truth of your humanity you wish you could move beyond what is human and make it all better for her my husband is the same way He has cried wishing that he could take away pain, that he could join me in pain that he can't, right?

It's okay that that's the fact. It's okay that that's what's going on. And it's really, really good for you to cry about it and to feel it and to know it because that's just getting you closer to accepting it. You know, it's getting closer to you believing, to be perfectly honest at the end of the day, she's going to be okay down there.

Totally. And she's going to come meet you. when she's okay she's going even before she's okay you're going to see her little hand reach up out of the hole and be like hi I'm right here and I see you and I love you do you want to hold hands

yeah you know and you can hold hands and be right there next to the hole with her without going into it and every time she looks up she sees you right there another reason to keep going another reason to keep climbing out of the hole you know

it's okay to play that role too sometimes you're not the fixer sometimes you're not the person who's lifting somebody up sometimes you are the light that they're coming toward and it's okay to let yourself be that oh i didn't expect to have this conversation on this call this is what she does i just love you guys and i and i have the same thing i want you all to be happy you know how i get like i i want you to be happy I like candles for y'all. I think about y'all all the time. And it's not just because, you know, I spend some time with these cool ladies and they're cool.

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Okay. Three. She's getting greedy. The first one is, I'm going to admit that I'm feeling a little bit misunderstood. That's okay. That's about basement dwelling. And I just want to say one thing. Yeah.

Do you ever think that the purpose of being in the basement is not just to get, to a higher level where there's light. Like, I don't know that I would trade basement life for kitchen life. Like, I, it is definitely dark and uncomfortable. I will give everyone that. Yeah. But I think there's, like, treasures that can only be found in the basement. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. Some of us are cocoon insects. We got a, we got a cocoon. Right, right. Okay. So there's that. Then I also want to know how.

are you and Kelly and you in particular dealing with the macrocosm of what you just talked about your experience leading you this way Kelly's experience as a white man leading him another way and then dealing with the world in that place and then also I want to know what exactly you're excited about right now because we just saw all of the information about the Indiana Midwestern local girls stories and I like when I saw that I was like of course this is this is the ashliest thing that ever happened so answer any of those or none of those yeah no I got you um a I think the basement is sometimes a place that like you have to go I have not always been pushed into the basement or falling into it sometimes I walk my happy ass down there yes like absolutely

and it felt like what for whatever reason that I sometimes can understand articulate, sometimes can't. It felt like what I needed to do. And I have at times gotten tired of being down there. I felt like now that I'm down here, damn, I really kind of wish I hadn't, because I want to go back up and those stairs are steeper, that climb is steeper than I remember, my Lord, you know what I mean? And sometimes I'm down there and I'm like, you know, I see my tracks from the last time I was down here and I remember my way out. And I remember my way out and I'm not scared of being down here. It's just where I got to be right now and I accept that whether or not I chose it. I just accept it. And the second one was about like the macrocosm of like

the big stuff going on and me and Cal. I just want to know how you're dealing it. You know what, forget the way I frame the question. Yeah. I just want the pod squad to hear a few minutes of you talking about however the hell you're dealing with this moment and how you're existing inside of it. It has been tough. I want to, okay, I want to start by saying, as you know, that there was a couple years time where I was dealing with a person of being harassed by the person who assaulted me when I was in middle school and his wife and getting a lot of messages and all from people and all sorts of things that were going on. And I'm not somebody who typically deals with a lot harassment on social media and the internet so that was already a little different but it was also just

obviously extra triggering because of the context and i i had a rough time of it like in a way that i not only didn't expect but got really mad at myself about because i could not believe i was in such a bad mental and emotional space after all the work i had done to like prevent it i could not believe that I was like I'm back here like this cannot be real like this is true and it sucked and it lasted for so much longer than I was comfortable with and when I started to come out of it started to have some of the first like glimmers of really feeling like I was coming out of the hole that that put me into the world was way worse than it was when I went in terrible things are happening everywhere, atrocious things, genocide, kidnappings,

detainments, illegal things. But I'm black in America, so like the law has always been a thing for me that I'm like, that's just what people say they agree to, and that does not make it moral or right just because it's legal. So I've always felt that way, and I've always had those feelings. But what I found when I came out of that darkness and I stepped into this world was that I did not have the level of fear that I expected I would from what was happening. What I had a lot more of was anger. And that is not necessarily rare for me, but this level of anger really made me feel like it really tapped in.

into the parts of my personality that I'm always trying to keep away from the people I love, but have no problem pointing directly at the people who are doing what I would consider evil acts. And that part of me has become more controlled, and it has grown. And I think it did that in that darkness. I think that darkness forced me to figure things out, not just about my fear, but about my anger, because I got so angry and angry in a way that I felt like was breaking. me down from the inside out and I did not know how to let it out and I had to figure that out over the course of several months to a year and now I'm at a point where I'm like I know

exactly where I can point that anger I know I feel like I know where my strengths are I know how to fight the fights that I'm ready to fight I know what I think doesn't work and so I just don't do those things anymore and just pushing ahead as far as I can because I truly believe as long as I have breath in my lungs, I have the ability to do something, you know? And I come from a family where my grandmother always said she never lost a fight in her entire life because she never stopped fighting until she won.

And I like that. And I feel that. It feels like a legacy that feels like a mission on my heart. So that's how I feel about the world right now. That's how I feel about the world right now. And yeah, I'm really excited. that sort of led me into this situation where I saw this job posted and I have not had a job in like 10 years because I typically have not enjoyed them and I found a way to not do it and I was like awesome but I'm also a Capricorn and I love steadiness and I love routine and I thought you know maybe someday there will be something that comes up that feels like it makes sense to me.

me, you know, so I always keep my eyes peeled. And with the way things are going in the country right now, I share a lot of job postings online because people are always looking, you know, employment is a really big issue, especially for, and with black women right now. So I'm always sharing job postings. I'm always doing that. But I saw this one, and I literally, and it was for the women and girls reporter, statewide position with Free Press, Indiana, working with Indie Mirror. Indy Mirror is a local news publication that started almost as soon as I moved back, and I've been a big fan of the whole time, because they have these incredible journalists who point their focus in a direction. And, you know, it's local news, so it's all indie-based, but the way they find the answers, the way they present the news, the way they go out and communicate with the community and share, it made me so happy. So they had this job posting post up.

I shared it, but I also said, you know, low key might apply because I thought like for a second, I was like, hey, this job is looking pretty dope from a myriad of factors. And I really am interested, you know, but also I was feeling like, do I want to take a local journalism job from somebody who could thrive in this position who maybe has been like coming up the ranks through local press? for a while, and then I bring my, you know, size 10 New York Times bestselling boot and kick over all their hopes and dreams and like, actually, I want this one. You know, I haven't had enough. Like that's how I was feeling like a villain,

like a cartoon villain, like that's how I felt. But luckily that like little thing that I wrote low key can apply or low key might apply made the CEO of Free Press Indiana reach out to me and ask me if I was serious. And after he reached, out to me, I was like, maybe. I am serious. And so then he asked if I wanted to come talk to the people who would essentially be my supervisors in that position. It was supposed to be

a half-hour conversation. We ended up talking for an hour and a half. It was just like I had so many ideas. I had so many things. I did end up telling them, you know, that like I was a little concerned about if I would be in some way or another stepping on toes by going after this position, you know, and I found out through other channels that while I was sitting around wondering, you know, if I was taking up too much space by applying for the women and girls reporter that like five men had already applied. And that like, you know, and really truly felt like it felt like their mailness, you know, was part of what would give them a unique perspective in that position.

It would be unique, yeah. You know, and once I, once I heard that information, you know, whether it was, I don't know if it was true or not, but once I heard that information, I had my resume and application sent in within like the hour. And they reached out. I went through a whole interview process. I got to meet people on the team, talk to them about the ideas I have or what could be done in this position, what we could create, what my,

ultimate goals would be in this position because it's like I you're telling me that you're going to send me around the state to talk with women and girls about what's hard in their lives and also what they're doing about it and I get to tell turn around and tell those stories to as many people as possible like that's that's a unicorn job you know not to mention the benefits all right health insurance is going up not for Ashley okay not for Ashley I game the system no but I figured it out you know that this is what I wanted you know I had not wanted a job in longer than 10 years but I had not wanted a job in so long and that desire that feeling of desire for a job was so new like it was like a fresh feeling that I hadn't had in so long so I just I totally went after it

and when I got it nobody like there wasn't a celebration anybody could give me bigger than the one I was having for myself in my own heart you know what I mean like I was just so happy and I my first day was this Monday and I continue to be happy with my choice and so excited about it Even more so now that I know that part of the, one of the organizations that partially funded my position is bringing Glennon to Indiana. That's right. Next month. Yeah. Yeah.

I just texted my speaking person and said, what am I supposed to bring? It's in two days. And she said, as usual, you're incorrect. You're incorrect. It's next month. It's next month. It's okay. Your paper calendar.

Right. We got you. Congratulations. Thank you. What alignment for you. I know. I mean, one of the things that I know about you and what you value, I mean, you have always had this real sincere, important connection to mothering, to children, to being a mirror for kids and mentoring and mentoring and being involved with children. and then you also have such a commitment to community and to Indiana and to where you are

and like making the world a better place where you are and then writing. So I think it's cute that you think you chose this. Well, you know what's interesting. A few years ago, I read this really amazing, just, I mean, amazing memoir. It was called Untamed by this woman, Glennon Doyle. And in it, one of the things that I read, um and i'm pretty sure it was that because to be honest i read all of them at the same time and then write them again but i know it's in one of them i'm pretty sure it's untamed but i believe it said

that um the miracle of grace is that you can get what you've never been given and i i was not given the privilege of um of good mothering i didn't get that and i was not given the privilege of growing up in a place where I felt like writing and journalism were something that I could do quite easily or even like because I wanted to. But I can change that. I can help change that here. You know, I can mother people in my life and also mother myself. And I can, you know, share these stories and be a writer right here. the way I think many people could if they could turn that knowing into believing, you know, and if I can be part of what inspires them to move along that path, what else is there for me

to be doing, you know, what else was I supposed to do? I know there are a lot of things I could have done and people love to remind me of all the things that I could do all the time. people love to tell me what I could be doing and what I could be making and how I could be blah blah blah blah blah the problem is baby if you know that I knew it way before you I chose something different if you know all the things I can do I swear you are not giving me any new information I knew I could do all those things I knew I could be this person I knew I could create an empire I know I know what I have going for me me. I know what works for me. But I've never been one to want to climb to the top of somebody else's

ladder. That ain't my ladder. And I don't like the view from up there. I want my view. I don't want somebody else's. You know what I mean? That's just how I feel about it. So yeah, I chose this and I feel so good about my choice because it's everything I wanted. I didn't get pieces of what I wanted in the job. I got everything I want it out of work, out of, out of doing work. So I'm going to just keep doing it until I want something else. What does it mean to you that you get to tell the stories of girls and women in Indiana specifically? Like you were, I mean, you're writing for every magazine that's the biggest magazine everyone heard of all over the place in Brooklyn and whatever. like I get the feeling that the had you been given the Brooklyn equivalent job it would have a very different so what is it about telling girls and women Midwestern Hoosiers stories that is so important um Indiana A has bad PR um they do they have bad PR and Indiana in addition

to having bad PR also has a culture of faux humble behavior that cultivates itself in a policing of each other's confidence levels or belief in themselves. There's very much a thing of like a community charge to make sure nobody gets too big for their britches. Oh, it's like a southern situation this this ain't nothing but Mississippi in the middle okay Indiana is is very very very very very red and it is conservative and it is stuck in its ways in a lot of ways and I get where a lot of that comes from I've grown up around these people my entire life I've had these conversations and I know where it's coming from at its core and a lot of it is just a a lack of exposure. People don't see different things. It's easy to make up your mind about something

you never interact with. And it's really easy to do this out here in isolated rural areas. It's easy to do in small towns with really strong conservative religious conservative control. It's become worse with the proliferation of media because now those people don't have any contact with people who are different and they also what they do have are narratives constant 24 seven narratives about people who are different from who they are so Brooklyn is not going to present Brooklyn would have different challenges you know what I mean and it would have different goals here the challenges that exist here are the challenges that I think affect people in the worst possible positions. And those are the people whose stories are told the least. Those are the people

who are shared the least in terms of like when people talk about Hoosiers, who's around here, you know, they don't know who's around here. They don't know people are living like that, you know, because we would never say that. We would never tell that story about us. And, you know, when I moved back here and I was doing a lot of press, for my book, because my book came out about, like, less than a year after I moved back. There were a lot of conversations I had where people asked me, you know, why did you move back? And I would always say stuff like, well, I have unfinished business with the state, you know? Sounds like a threat.

I love it. Exactly. And I wanted it to. I wanted to. I would say stuff like, you know, well, once I left Indiana, I found out so much about our history, like, about the literary history. the musical history, I had to leave the state to figure that stuff out, I was like, and it occurred to me that once I left, what a good reason for this state to deny that I was ever here, to never tell my story, to never share what my life was like here. And I said, I'm at the point where I really want to force this state to claim me. Like, I don't want them to have another option. I want them to understand that I was raised here. I went to school here. I went to college here. I saw it. I see it. I talk to everybody. I've been all over the state. You are not going to deny that I understand what's happening here because I'm not one of you. I'm more of one of you

than most of you who live here. Generations of my family are in the dirt here. I'm in the dirt here. So let's have a conversation about what that's like that you can't deny. You won't be able to dismiss and you'll never be able to get rid of i in school i was often called a i'm a really smart behavior problem and that has not changed it's not different i'm still a behavior problem but i'm smarter now that's right so let's deal with that you made me live with me Ashley Ford Well the most important question is Are we going to have our couch date?

Yeah This winter, okay Yes Yes, absolutely We're already making plans I'll let you know Okay I love you so much

Thank you for the gift of this time My pleasure Pod Squad I told you If you have not read somebody's daughter I don't know what the hell to say to you yet I feel so excited for them if they haven't yet It's like never having had dark chocolate before, never having had, you know, really good salt. It's like you're so lucky.

I wish I hadn't read it. This is, I want to read it again. You should. It's really good. Ashley, you should. And it is, well, I've talked about it a million times. I'm just saying that if you have, if you're a pod squatter and you haven't read somebody's daughter, just do yourself a favor. and when you're done with this episode, order it.

It's healing. It's, well, it's everything Ashley's just been for the last hour. Ashley, we love you. Thank you. And Pod Squad, we'll see you next time. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production podcast brought to you by Treat Media. Treat Media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things show

on TikTok.