We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Mean Girls & Mothers-in-Law: HOW TO DEAL

Episode Date: June 26, 2025

423. Mean Girls & Mothers-in-Law: HOW TO DEAL  Amanda, Glennon, and Abby talk parenting through kid conflict, why girls are taught to avoid confrontation, and how to raise kids who trust themselves. They dig into the real longing beneath criticism—especially with mothers-in-law—and why getting vulnerable is braver than getting loud. Plus, Abby shares how her acceptance of failure made her a clutch performer—and what that means for the rest of us. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to We Can Do Hard Things and welcome to our favorite hour. And this is our favorite hour because this is the hour where the three of us get to ignore our own problems by focusing on yours. Okay? Oh that's what I do all the hours. I know, I know, I know, but this is the hour we get to do it on purpose. Okay, okay, we don't have to pretend like we're not doing it during this hour. Right, exactly. This is the hour where we have asked our beloved pod squad to send us emails or voicemails containing just struggles they're having, questions they're swirling around. Just what is in their life that they are struggling with? And they have written to us, they have

voicemailed us, and we have collected a group of questions from an incredibly beautiful group of pod squatters. And we are all gathering together. I want you to imagine us all sitting together in one little family room. We are snuggled up. We've got our tea and our blankets and we are fixing each other's problems, even though we cannot fix our own. And that is what we are doing today. So let us begin with Nicole. Hey Abby, Glennon and sister, this is Nicole. I am from East Tennessee. So appreciate my cornbread accent.

You're welcome. So I have a hard thing. So I need some advice on teenagers. So I have a daughter, she Ella, she is 12 and a half and she is having a hard realization that girls are just mean. They're just mean girls. And so I've raised her in an atmosphere of, you know, women are badasses, like we need to like stick together, like, you know, women are badasses, like we need to like stick together, like,

you know, all that kind of vibe. And so it's just utter disappointment when, you know, that's just not laid out in life with her currently. It's not, it's a frowned upon to throw hands and illegal to throw hands with a 12 year old kid. So I'm trying to let my daughter like deal with this on her own, but basically she had, you know, a baby crush on a boy and, um, she trusted this group of friends who I was suspicious of a few of them from the beginning, but you know, she tried to

disturb her friends and so anyway they got this information about this little boy that she liked and basically at the volleyball banquet, which is a players only volleyball banquet, announced in front of the entire volleyball team that this girl that she thought was her friend, oh, they're together now. And so that's fine. Like you can be together, but like don't do that to my daughter in front of like the whole volleyball banquet. Right?

It's the presentation of the information. So you know, like I said, I'm just upset. I don't know the best way to deal with this. Like, is there any advice that you could give me to give to her to deal with Mean Girls? I love you all and thank you for your podcasts. Okay, so let me get this straight. The Mean Girl announced what? She announced that, so Nicole has Ella, Ella's the daughter, Ella has a crush on boy.

We're gonna call him. Jackass. No, no. Well, it's not the Jack. No, we're calling him Jack. He didn't do anything yet. He didn't do anything. He probably did do something. You know he did. But we don't know about it yet. Or he will. Ella has a crush on Eric. Okay. Can we at least call him Jack? No, Jackass. We can call him Jack. Jack. Jack. That's great. Great. Ella has a crush on Jack. Ella trusts these girls, which by the way, Nicole had her eye on these girls from the beginning. Yes, she did.

Pol had her eye on these girls from the beginning. Yes, she did. Mm-mm. But Ella trusted them. So Ella tells friend, we're gonna call friend Jackie. She tells friend Jackie that she has a crush on Jack. Then Jackie at the volleyball banquet walks up in front of the whole group that all knows that she has a crush and says,

I, Jackie, am currently with Jack. This is an announcement to everyone. Thereby crushing Ella and embarrassing in front of all the people who knew that she had a crush. So she and Jack are now together. Jackie and Jack. Jackie and Jack. And she announced it at the freaking banquet.

Which making Nicole want to throw hands. That is what we have established. Which she has identified, astutely so, is illegal in East Tennessee. Yes, so that's good. Nicole has really good awareness and boundaries. Yeah. I mean, so hard. Unanswerable question. Is there anything worse than watching your kid

be hurt like that? It's just, it feels unsurvivable and it brings up all of your mama bear. I mean, Nicole, first of all, I have absolutely no fix for this, but I do wanna say this. If this is bringing up, if you do wanna throw hands, if you feel like you are losing your sense of goodness

and decency and reality, and it makes you actually a little bit feel crazy. I have never stopped feeling that way. I want so badly when this shit happens to my kids. I'm looking at myself from above. I want to be the one in the kitchen saying, okay, let's try to look at this from a kind perspective. Let's figure out what could be the kindest interpretation of Jackie's behavior. I am never like that. I am livid.

I hate them. I hate small children. I hate them. And I talk about them in the hopes that they're going to get what is coming to them. Very small children. Yes. Isn't it just so, so it's not okay. Maybe, but it's, I just want to tell you Nicole, that it is real to me. I, and also this, what I want to say about this, what you're calling Mean Girls stuff is that I don't like this evidence of an issue

that I don't want to be true. I also want to err on the side of women solidarity and togetherness and all of that. And yet there are things that happen that threaten that worldview. And this stuff is real. Have I done the thing on this podcast where I talk about when I was teaching

and what I noticed about boys and girls and how they relate to each other? I have done that. Well, do it again. Refresh my memory. This is one thing that helps me understand this stuff, this quote, mean girl stuff, which is that when I was teaching Nicole, third grade,

I noticed all the time that when boys had issues with each other, like Johnny went in front of me in dodge ball or whatever, the boys would have a conflict and then everybody was, all the teachers and parents were pretty comfortable with teaching Johnny and Jack to talk it out or to beef it out or to, it was okay. The conflict was okay. The conflict was okay, all right?

It didn't make them nervous. Yes. Like why are Johnny and Jack having a conflict? Yes. When girls have a conflict with each other, she didn't invite me to her party, she didn't whatever, everyone gets very nervous. Adults get very nervous.

It is like the conflict is not OK. Parents either are on the side of me and sister, where they say they basically think the other child should be imprisoned, or they are so nervous about conflict that they suggest peacekeeping. Just act nice. Just bury it. Just choose inner conflict over the outer conflict,

because outer conflict between two girls makes everyone very uncomfortable. And so what I noticed is that since adults do not encourage girls to just work it out with each other directly and let the chips fall, they, through word or omission, teach girls to swallow it and ignore it. Or just like stab each other in the back.

Well, that's what happens. You can't ignore hurt feelings for so long. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. If the energy is there, it is going to seep. And so when girls can't stab each other in the front, girls learn to stab each other in the back. Yeah. So for example, one way this might have happened,

what if little Jackie already did have a crush on Jack? Jackie doesn't know how to say to Ella, actually I like him too. No, no, no, that is not, that is too bold, too forward. So this shit happens after. That's just one theory. I don't know if it's true. I do believe if girls had permission

to be bold with each other upfront, there would be less. I think that know if it's true, I do believe if girls had permission to be bold with each other up front, there would be less. I think that's why people are like, I'm a guys girl, because guys can just work it out. Guys just, they don't carry it around. They don't stab each other in the back. I feel like this is why. Do you have any advice? There's also a theory about that, which is that girls, because girls mature at a quicker rate than boys at this age that they have an increased awareness of social hierarchy before boys do. And so when you have an awareness of social hierarchy then you suddenly are seeing your place in it and you need to be in it or you at least need someone under you in it. And so it's kind of like this brutal awareness of the reality and therefore

it just exists. So if that's your reality, you got to work your way out somehow. And as long as Ella's under me, even if there's someone over me, I'm safe. Right. So there's that piece of it too. But I, God, it's so awful. When I read this question, I was just trying to figure out if there was an answer, like looking at research. Cause I'm like, my only answer is I can't breathe around children who

aren't nice to my children. But I think that they said just like talking about it, talking about it, talking about it from an early age and continuing to be there when this happens to your kids because it feels like your kid is the only one when it happens to you. But in fact, 48% of youth are exposed to what they call relational aggression, which is this spectrum of bullying from exclusion up to real physical violence, twice a month or more. So half of our little ones are experiencing this on the regular, and so having it be something

that can be discussed, and the fact that Ella was able to tell Nicole this is a really, really big deal that it happened. And so, because it's happening twice a month to your people likely, and if you make it such a big deal and have such a strong emotional reaction that you're like, Oh my God, we're going straight into the principal. I'm calling her mom, I'm freaking out. Then maybe they're less likely to disclose to you all of these things that happen, and then they don't have a way to talk about it. So if it is happening,

they say being able to talk about it, being able to role play with your kid, like not like I'm gonna fix it for you unless you need to intervene because it's like a straight up bullying situation. But role playing with your kid of what they could do is what they say is really helpful. And it's normalization.

Yeah. One of the big mistakes that I made with the kids when they were little and probably still do is that I think when they tell me that something has happened to them and they've been hurt, my reaction is to become very hurt with them. I assume I'm getting triggered that some old hurts, it's about my old hurts.

And so I have kind of thought, the way that I will show you love is that I will talk about how absolutely unacceptable this is, I will get all riled up for you. And I think what that does, and I'm not saying this is a black and white situation, but one of the things that that does is to signal to them that this is a huge problem.

Yeah. It's signaling to them, this is not normal. This is not survivable. No one can even understand this. This is so far up. Maybe even shameful. Exactly. Maybe this is shameful.

Yeah. Exactly. So I think what I'm signaling to them is this is not OK. And this is not normal. And you cannot handle this alone. You cannot handle this. That's why I am so riled up in this, in this with you. But the truth is actually, I have been,

like if we all just, everyone on the pod squad sat and thought about it, this is not a problem that we've ever been able to fix. This very morning before getting on this podcast, I had to send an email to someone who hurt my feelings really badly. This is going to continue to happen with little Ella for her entire life.

And sometimes it's going to be because Jack's a jackass and Jackie's a jackass. And sometimes it's going to be because Ella misread the situation. And sometimes it's going to be for a million different reasons. So we can't fix those reasons. All we can do is model for Ella that it's OK to feel heartbroken by all of this

and that she will survive it and that we understand that kind of heartbreak because we experienced it this morning and we're still standing. And I think one of the things about the way that you kind of tackle some of these moments that have happened in our life, I've taken kind of a different route

because I know that these things are just going to keep happening to them throughout their life. You do too. I'm not saying you don't know that, but the approach that I take, and I don't know if this is right or wrong. What I model to them is that person is now dead to me. Seriously. Like that person who, I don't care how old you are, I don't care that your brain is still developing. If you're an asshole, you're an asshole. You're doing assholery things. And I don't want assholes in my life. I have a no asshole policy. And so when the kids bring home information, they have to be very careful because if they make up with that person and that kid comes to my house.

Don't bring Jackie around this house next week. She's dead to us. Yeah. I mean, it's happened with teammates, with classmates of our kids. And I'm like, also the parents fall into this category. Like if you fuck with my kid, that kid is now dead to me and that family is now dead to me. I know that this is probably not the healthiest thing, but it's giving the option of saying, oh, maybe I don't want that person

in my life. But the problem is, is when you're in high school, when you're in middle school, when you're going through this time, your world is so small that it's so difficult for them. My world is bigger. I don't care about these kids, you know? So I think that what you're saying is really good. And also, Nicole, it's okay for Jackie to be dead to you because it works for me. Right. That is a big thing though that they say is that not leading your kids to friendships or saying that friendship needs to be over and this friendship, go join that group of friends. But to really help them see that the world is wider than their current situation.

And I think when you're in a group and you're kind of marginalized in that group, all of your effort is to get back into the group. And you don't see that there are other people out there that are options for you and letting people widen their net and not, you know, we want our kids to be back in the group. Like it's so uncomfortable, but being open to like,

maybe that's not the crew. And we can go over here and make new friends. The other crazy thing that I think when this has always happened and will always happen and will happen for the end of time, but the only thing that they have found that like changes this dynamic in kids is what they call like instead of bystander the upstander effect, which is that only 15% of kids in these kinds of situations where there's like an aggressive situation, right? Only 15% of the time does another kid say something who isn't like the target of the

situation. Yeah, because they don't want to become the target. That's why they're not saying anything. Right, but that's not what happens. Over 80% of the time that a kid stands up and is like, that's not cool, stop that. It works within the first 10 seconds. The kids stop doing it. The kids only do it because they think there isn't going to be a consequence. 80% of the time.

And it's like what they call the 15 80 10 rule that most bullying situations last for an average of 29 seconds. But when someone intervenes and says like, that's not cool, stop that, the bullying situation is reduced to seven seconds. Wow. 80% of the time. I feel like that's the kind of thing. Like we can't prepare, we can't like control whether our kids are the recipients of aggression, et cetera.

But if everybody was teaching their kid that, to stand up and be like, not cool, man, What the hell? And that's called an upstander? Yeah. Yeah. Instead of a bystander, it's like upstander, because you're standing up for someone else. I like that. I mean, it's a very effective thing. It's not as risky as we would assume it is.

I love that. Well, Nicole, here's what I'm going to say to you, because what I know about you from your voicemail is that I really like you. I felt every word of that. I get it. I would tell you that I relate to you.

And what I know now after it's too late and my kids are grown is that there is a big difference between messaging to your kid, I've got you, and messaging to your kid, you've got you. That's really good. And that is what, if I could do it over again, I would hone every interaction to be aimed with the same amount of maternal love

and energy and protectiveness, but aimed towards teasing out that part of Ella that has got herself, right? So instead of saying, Jackson asshole saying, so how does that make you, what do you think about that? What do you think about that guy? What do you think about that friend? What kind of friends do you think you want

to have in your life? How does that feel? How do you want to feel? What about this moment makes you not wanna do that to other people? You know, this feeling of left outness. Can you look around your classroom and think of another person who might feel left out? How could we not be like that?

There's just like a lot of you've got you approaches and questions that I wish I had tapped into. This episode is brought to you by Dzone. For the first time ever, the 32 best soccer clubs from across the world are coming together to decide who the undisputed champions of the world are in the FIFA Club World Cup. The world's best players, Messi, Holland, Kane, and more are all taking part. And you can watch every match for free on Dazon, starting on June 14th and running until July 13th. Sign up now at dazon.com slash FIFA. That's D-A-Z-N dot com slash FIFA.

Hey, what's up, Flies? This is David Spade. Dan Carvey. Look, I know we never actually left, but I'll just say it. We are back with another season of Fly on the Wall. Every episode, including ones with guests, will now be on video.

Every Thursday, you'll hear us and see us chatting with big name celebrities. And every Monday, you're stuck with just me and Dana. We react to news, what's trending, viral clips. Follow and listen to Fly on the Wall everywhere you get your podcasts. All right. Let's hear from Kim. Hi, my name is Kim Hershey and just want to first say thank you three for taking the time to do this podcast. It means a lot to a lot of us.

My question is about social media. How do you address social media with family members who use it for communication? That should be something personal, even like I wish you a happy birthday on Facebook, but didn't text, call, you a happy birthday on Facebook, but didn't text, call, send a card, especially children. A family member did not bother to wish my daughter a happy birthday, a grandparent, but yet wrote a happy birthday on Facebook and thought that that should count. So how would you address that with family members when you have definite boundaries

with social media. Again, thank you for all you guys do. Have a great day. Okay. So for debriefing, like Abby did last time, our friend Kim is asking a question purportedly about social media boundaries. A grandparent, so I'm presuming her in-laws. Her mother-in-law. It's her mother-in-law. in-laws. Her mother-in-law. It's her mother-in-law. It's always about the mother-in-law. It's not about social media.

She hates her mother-in-law. Kim's mother-in-law is an asshole, okay? And what we have identified as the presenting symptom is that this asshole mother-in-law had the nerve to wish a happy birthday to Kim's child on Facebook, but did not follow that Facebook public posting up with any kind of personal call or text or anything to wish happy birthday. She just posted that shit because Facebook reminded her and then called it a day. I think this might be like a tip of the iceberg situation that we're dealing with, but it's also a good point.

If you tell someone on Facebook, does it count? If you comment on Instagram, hey, congratulations. Well, yeah, couple of things. I feel like if her daughter is on Facebook, which I don't assume she is, because nobody, I'm assuming she's a little bit younger. Younger kids are not on Facebook right now. Is anyone still on Facebook? Is Facebook still a thing?

It's how I communicate with my family. Are you serious? Yeah, I'm able to see what they're doing more because they don't post on IG. So to me, I think you both are right. This is more of an issue with the person rather than the social media. And I think you should talk to your partner about if in fact this is your in-law, what the fuck? Why didn't they contact us by phone? Why didn't they call our kid? You might

have this issue with your in-law. Why doesn't your spouse have this issue with their parent? I just always think it's so funny because here's what I think is funny. I feel like all of my friends and me in the past are always complaining that their in-laws are not involved or direct or whatever enough. Except the last thing we actually want

is our in-laws to be more involved or direct or any of it at all. What you're actually doing is justifying their lack of involvement by showing them why she don't like that. Exactly, Kim, do you want your mother-in-law to come over? Do you want her to call you? Do you want her to show up at your door and say,

I'm taking the baby out for the day? Like maybe you do. But I don't know. This question, I feel like I'm not gonna have the best advice because number one, I have had such past in-law issues and not been able to get out of my own way about it and I've never figured out really whose problem it was. So I didn't get a lot of clarity about it. But also, I don't know that we can exactly define what are the best mediums of communication and

what are appropriate and what are not, because it sounds like Kim wanted her, she said, didn't call, text, send a card. But maybe the in-laws' mode of communication preferred is Facebook. How do you decide what's okay? Here's the deal. It wasn't okay before the birthday, okay? If things were okay in Kim's world with the in-laws, then the posting of happy birthday on Facebook would be,

oh, that's sweet. If things are not okay with Kim and the in-laws, then the posting on Facebook is, see this is exhibit 369 about why I don't feel valued, why I don't feel appreciated, why I'm lacking the closeness I always thought I would have with in-laws. Like this is one that you put it in the pile based on your underlying feeling about your relationship. So I do not think that this is about social media nor boundaries when it's about social media boundaries with family.

I think this is about some wish that things would be different. And when you're seeing how things are and how you wish they'd be different, then of course this is viewed as like very insensitive and thoughtless. So I think it would be useful maybe for Kim to think about like, what is it here that is bothering you? Because I don't think you go to your in-laws

and say, it really offended me that you wrote happy birthday on Facebook. I think if they already view you as crazy, they're gonna put that as evidence in the pile that you're crazy, okay? I think you need to get to the bigger need and the bigger desire that's under that and figure out what it is.

And then figure out what it is. And then figure out if there's a way to have a broader discussion of, I wish you were more in our lives. I wish we had a place. I wish you prioritized our family. I wish whatever it is that you wish, but I don't think this is your mountain to die on. I think that that's so good, sister.

And I think that you're a hundred percent right and I retract My stupid statements and I'm falling into Amanda camp. No because that shows you were good with your family That's why all the communication on Facebook works for you because you're not looking for it as evidence of why they all suck Right, right. No, it's good. You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of what when Esther Peral was on here and she was talking about what is the longing beneath the criticism. So like if the criticism is you just reached out on Facebook, like what is the longing beneath it? Because that's vulnerable and sweet. Like Kim, it sounds like you're longing to have a deeper, different relationship with your in-laws.

That's cool. That's actually quite beautiful. To me, it feels like, do what my sister said. If you could get vulnerable enough to not say you did this wrong, but this is what I want, then it's probably not going to work. And then you come to Al-Anon with me. And I don't mean that in a flippant way. Like, I mean, that is what I think is a beautiful way

to live is to be vulnerable enough to not just criticize, but present the longing. But that's all you can do. You are not gonna change another person. So after the longing, then Al-Anon. Because you can't change anybody. And if I were a betting man, I would put a healthy chunk of change on Kim. These in-laws

probably have other children. Maybe they have another daughter in addition to Kim's partner. And maybe the relationship between the grandkids in that family and the parents is different. Right. Maybe Kim, who's the in-law, her children get the Facebook message and the other children get the in-person birthday party. Who knows what it is? There is something deeper here that this represents. And I think that even if you can't have that conversation with your in-laws, even if you could like get sturdy and icky enough to say to your partner,

I know there's nothing to be done about this. I know we're not gonna fix this problem, but I feel sad and confused and angry and constantly angry whenever I see them about X. Then you've already had it done. You don't need to look for evidence for the rest of your life. You don't need to be like, Hey, and the Facebook thing happened. You can just be like, this is what I know is true.

It sucks. I'm pissed about it and I'm sad about it. And then you have that new level playing field where it's all out in the open and you don't have to defend it for the rest of your life as to why they're fucking everything up. Yeah, because that sucks to live that way where you're actually just constantly trying to gather evidence for your case. Like you don't have to do that.

To show you're not crazy, that they're crazy. Exactly. But like if you can just say how you feel to your person and then they'll look at you when they know, oh shit, this is another thing, then you're not doing it by yourself either. Yeah. And just shout out to everyone who's trying to make a new culture with their family while inside these two other cultures that you came from. Like this system we have of how we build family is so hard.

It's like you grew up in a country and then you freaking exiled yourself. And then you're trying to build a new country inside that other country with all different rules. And in order to do it, you have to reject the rules from the country. It's just- But don't worry, all the holidays you celebrate

are gonna be from the country of your origin plus the country of your other person's origin. It's so hard. Just grace. Also shout out to the in-laws, all the in-laws everywhere, assholes and not, who these things happen to and they're continually baffled and bewildered by why they're getting yelled at about the Facebook comment. Because they're like, is it really the Facebook comment? Should I have written a card? Maybe if you're getting yelled at about Facebook, maybe think harder about what the thing is under the Facebook birthday message. Because I don't think it's that. and the no frails delivers get groceries delivered to your door from no frails with pc express shop online and get fifteen dollars in pc optimum points on your first five orders

shop now at nofrills.ca. Okay, let's hear from Kylie. Hello, Glenn and Abby, Amanda, and everyone working behind the scenes to make this podcast possible. I thank you all. My name is Kylie. She, her calling from Nebraska. My question today is primarily for Abby. And that question is, how do you dig deep when the circumstances require that? I am someone who is very comfortable living in her head and heart.

I'm very good at processing my emotions. And recently our family has found ourselves in some crises that feel like they could knock me out. I'm in therapy, which is great. And the circumstances are such that I have to leave my cocoon. And my truest, most beautiful self knows this. And there's also part of me that's very afraid. So I could use some advice from an Olympian on how to do that. How do you dig deep and keep going and psych yourself up even when you feel very scared and like the pressure is on.

I love and appreciate all of you guys and I trust you. Thank you for making this such a beautiful place. Bye. Thank you for making this such a beautiful place. Well, just aren't you the sweetest, Kylie? Aren't you the sweetest? And I just want to say, I'm sorry, you're going through crisis. And I can relate. 2024 was basically the year of crisis for me.

And what I would also say is Olympians have a tendency to take vulnerability risks and physical risks, but it sounds a little bit like the crisis you might be going through could be having to deal with emotional and spiritual and heart stuff also. So I just want to like acknowledge that there's a lot of different ways I believe we can dig deep. One of the things that I remember when I was playing was just trying to continually open myself up to the idea of being scared and then just doing it anyway. And I know Glennon has a lot to say about that because there's so much in life that comes our way that is good fear. That is like, Oh, it's a stopper.

It's like, Oh, we shouldn't do that. That's not what I'm talking about here. I'm talking about expanding ourselves and our comfortability. So much of what I think my fear revolved around as an athlete was being kind of made to look like a fool or the failure and doing it on such a very public stage. And I can promise you this and I've thought a lot about this since I retired, I think one of the things that made me an exceptional athlete was my mentality to continually open myself to utter annihilation. So when the moment rose where

everything was on the line and I had to be the one to score the goal or to win the game, to win the tournament, scored a lot of big big goals and big moments and I'm often asked why. And I really do think that it has everything to do with my ability to accept whatever would happen. Both outcomes, both completely falling on my ass, missing the penalty kick in the last minute, and or making it. And no matter what outcome, that I would be strong enough to handle it. And I've

had a lot of practice with that kind of feeling. I didn't win the game every time. I won them a lot of times, but I think my percentage of the winnings versus losings of those were higher on the winning side because and only because I was willing to accept whatever fate. I was willing to know that I was going to deal with the heartbreak and also the joy of victory or whatever. I think a lot of us get really stuck in our fear because we can't imagine accepting the failure of whatever it is we're heading towards or the hardship or the heartbreak or the grief or the devastation. Those are just emotions and we do get through them especially if you're familiar with therapy.

It doesn't mean that it's gonna be comfortable. I think a lot of people think if I go towards this fear, if I try to do this thing that I'm afraid of, it will get easier over time. And the truth is it doesn't get easier over time. There's always still some discomfort. But when I know that I've done something, I can like put that in my back pocket

and it gives me confidence that when the fear comes the next time that I know that I will be able to handle it. It doesn't make it any easier. Does that make any sense? Yeah. Yeah, it does. Is it trying?

Is that the difference? Cause when you say like when you're in a game and you've accepted defeat or victory, or like she's facing this challenge and crisis and she's like, I'm going to have to dig deep. Does that just mean try really hard? No. Because when you're talking about that, there's something so vulnerable about trying. Cause you could not put yourself in the position to be the one who's going to receive the pass to try to make the big goal. Like if you were not trying really hard and you weren't willing to accept, I'm either going to be the hero or the villain in the situation, you would just not put yourself

in that position to be that one or the other. Right? Or like I just wouldn't, if I was in a crisis, I'd just be like, I'm gonna hang back and let someone else try. Yeah, I mean, I think what you're saying, I don't think it's trying really hard. I think it's putting forth the same kind of effort,

regardless of whatever outcome, in a team environment, which I'm sure this is probably has something to do with the team environment. They're dealing with family members or friends or whatever. Kylie is. Everybody had to do the most that they could possibly do. But what I'm talking about is this mental experiment, this mental challenge that I think it's not about trying harder. I think it's about opening wider. So it's like your aperture is more open to garner and grab and experience the most of that experience and have the most possibility happen. That does open you up to more failure.

Right. So it's like any heartbreak that I've ever had, any heartbreaking loss or relationship, whatever, one of the mantras that I always have when I'm going through that time is stay open, open wider next time. Because I don't want to establish this neural pathway that this is a thing that I should no longer participate in. Just because that love didn't work out, Just because that love didn't work out,

just because that game didn't work out, doesn't mean I don't belong there. Wow. That's fucking awesome. Really? Yeah. I think so. It's like when Brittany Cooper was saying like, the willingness to be a fool for something.

Yes. You're opening yourself up to either be a hero or a fool, but just the opening to that and being like, I'm showing up here. And it sounds like she might be showing up for the first time in this particular way, which is why I love this. I deeply resonate with what Kylie is saying,

which to me feels like I am a person who lives inside myself. My cocoon. who lives inside myself. Mm-hmm. My cocoon. I live inside myself. I have spent my life being okay in here. But now with my family's asking me to step out, it's like a human who has been backstage forever and is understanding the universe to be calling her onto stage, or a person who's been in a dressing room forever, which is a life worth living, a contemplative life. Look, I'm here for that.

But I also understand what Kylie is feeling, which is that there are times where somebody knocks on your dressing room door and says, no, no, no, we need you on stage. And that that can be very scary for people like Kylie. I understand it deeply. And this is so weird, but I can't stop thinking about this one song that I want Kylie to listen to.

Abby will know exactly where I'm going with this. So most mornings before I have to do something that is outside of the dressing room, I repeat this song by the Indigo Girls called Hammer in a Nail. Okay, this whole song is just about stepping onto stage. It's about doing. It's about not overthinking.

It's about not living in your head and heart all the time. It's about the thing is that we are minds and we are hearts, but we also can't avoid this part of our being, which is body, which is like, I do have to be out in the world. I need to be in relation. I need to show up. I need to lead.

I need to do these things. And this song is a sweet ode to people like Kylie who are being called on stage. There's this line in it that says, my life is more than a vision. The sweetest part is acting after making a decision. It's just this very beautiful anthem to doing and not just thinking and feeling. Yeah. And it's you're going to do and because it's maybe not as practiced as the interior

life that you've been living, it's not going to go perfectly. Like there's going to be times that you've been living, it's not gonna go perfectly. There's gonna be times that you fall down. And I know that this is cliche, but don't give up on yourself. Keep trying. Keep falling or failing forward, as they say. It's like, I don't know, the more times I've failed, the more times I've succeeded,

the more times I understand that like life for me is about the living and the trying in a way. It's funny because she's talking about digging deep and I would ask Kylie to think of it differently. To me, it feels like you're a person who's always, okay, Kylie, you asked about digging deep. There's a line and Emily Sailors is my favorite songwriter of all time. So Emily wrote this hammer and a nail song. And in the first verse it goes, I've been digging too deep. I always do. I've been digging too deep. I always do a million times a day. Kylie, you've been digging too deep. You always do. Like this actually probably isn't about digging deeper. It's about going out outward. Yeah, getting out of your hole

that you've been digging for so long. Exactly, exactly. And like there's something terrifying. It's why I wear my little Joan of Arc necklace. It's like the idea of I am not afraid I was born to do this is like the going towards the battle. I don't know. There is something that you just experience life differently that way. Kylie, you get to experience the other half of living.

Now it might be lighter than you think. It's good. Okay, y'all let's do a pod squatter of the week. Let's hear from Megan. Hi, my name is Megan. See her. I had a double mastectomy in 2019 and I was just calling to answer your guys' question about things that people did that made such a difference for me. And like Amanda, there were so many things,

it's hard to say, but the thing that sticks out in my mind is I had some friends that were far away and couldn't be here. In their stead, they sent me a life-size cardboard cutout, those things you can do like a celebrity or whatever, of Justin Bieber. It was so funny to me. I'm not even a big Justin Bieber fan, but I'm gay. And, you know, Bieber looked like a lesbian for so long that it was just kind of funny. And they like sent that to her to keep me company in the room or wherever I wanted.

And it always made me laugh. It always makes me smile. People would come in and we would just joke about it. And I absolutely loved that. So yeah, go Amanda. I am so glad you're on the other side and it does keep getting easier and easier and easier than yeah. Now I hardly think of it and it's beautiful. So, I love you guys.

Thanks so much for your show. Oh, Megan. So awesome. I love how creative people are with their love. I know. I was just talking to a friend the other day who also had double mastectomy and her friends threw her a boob voyage,

a bomb voyage to her boobs party right before her mastectomies. And everything was like a boob thing, and they brought like memories of her breasts. No, stop it. Places that they had been. Stop it. All of the things. And it was a whole like homage to her breasts

on the boo voyage party. People are so creative. I love it. Love it gets so heavy. It's such a good idea to add some absurdity and whimsy to love offerings and Pod Squad I just had so much fun with this. I love you guys. I didn't think about my own problems for an entire hour. I really appreciate this. So good. Thank you for your service, Pod Squad, and helping us not think about our problems. We love you. We can do hard things. Bye. Bye. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us if you'd be willing to take 30 seconds to do these three things. First, can you please follow or subscribe to We Can Do Hard Things?

Following the pod helps you because you'll never miss an episode and it helps us because you'll never miss an episode. To do this, just go to the We Can Do Hard Things show page on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And then just tap the plus sign in the upper right-hand corner or click on follow. This is the most important thing for the pod. While you're there, if you'd be willing to give us a five-star rating and review

and share an episode you loved with a friend, we would be so grateful. We appreciate you very much. We Can Do Hard Things is created and hosted by Glennon Doyle, Abby Wambach, and Amanda Doyle in partnership with Odyssey. Our executive producer is Jenna Wise-Berman, and the show is produced by Lauren Legrasso, Alison Schott, and Bill Schultz. You