We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Michelle Obama & Craig Robinson: Their Mother’s Last (Life-Changing) Advice

Episode Date: April 8, 2025

400. Michelle Obama & Craig Robinson: Their Mother’s Last (Life-Changing) Advice  Michelle Obama and her brother, Craig Robinson, co-hosts of the new podcast In My Opinion (IMO), join Glennon and Abby for a heartfelt conversation about love, loss, and the wisdom their late mother, Marian Robinson, left behind. They open up about parenting in the spotlight, the courage to disappoint others, and the lessons that continue to shape their lives. -The final words from Marian Robinson that changed everything -Why Michelle is finally choosing herself—and how to break free from people-pleasing -The biggest challenge facing kids today—and how parents can help -The one piece of advice they want to pass on to their own children Michelle Obama’s passion for storytelling has set sales records, garnered awards and accolades, and earned her global acclaim. Her memoir, Becoming, spent over 130 weeks on the New York Times Bestsellers list, sold more than 17 million copies worldwide. American Factory, the first film produced by her and her husband Barack Obama’s media company Higher Ground, won the Academy Award for Best Documentary in 2020. Upon its release in 2020, The Michelle Obama Podcast was the most successful original in Spotify history, bringing in more women listeners over 40 than any other podcast. Through the Obama Foundation, she founded the Girls Opportunity Alliance, which supports adolescent girls' education and empowerment around the world.  Craig Robinson:  Craig Robinson is the Executive Director of the National Association of Basketball Coaches (NABC) and host of the Higher Ground podcast Ways To Win. From 2017-2020, he served as the vice president of Player Development and Minor League Operations for the NBA’s New York Knicks. Previously, he was a Division I head men’s basketball coach at Oregon State and Brown, and spent more than a decade working as a trader in the investment banking industry. He is the brother of former First Lady Michelle Obama. Together, they are the hosts of the new podcast IMO (In My Opinion) with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Check out our first episode with Michelle Obama here: https://podcasts.apple.com/si/podcast/193-michelle-obama/id1564530722?i=1000606222468 To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. Okay, you all have heard us talk about how excited we are that our new book is coming out on May 6. It's called We Can Do Hard Things Answers to Life's 20 Questions. And when we announced the book on my newsletter, A Little Treat, the tour sold out very fast, quicker than we were thinking. And many of you wrote and said how sad you were that the tour sold out too fast for you to get tickets. And you know that no matter how much 12 step work I do,

I can't seem to not be deeply affected when you all are sad. So I told you I'd try to figure something out to help those who felt sad about missing their chance to get tickets. Here's what we're doing. In support of those of you who couldn't get tickets and in support of our beloved local independent booksellers, we are hosting a live virtual event on Pub Day, a We Can Do Hard Things, on May 6th. A live virtual event that will benefit independent bookstores across the country. So in order to get your ticket, you can click the registration button for the live virtual event at the top of treatmedia.com, and then you're going to pre-order

We Can Do Hard Things through one of the independent bookstore links. All proceeds from this event will go to these local independent bookstore links. So your ticket to the event will include a copy of We Can Do Hard Things, answers to life's 20 questions. Now here's the deal. If you already pre-ordered the book from an independent bookstore, you don't have to buy it again to come to the event.

If you want to and give your copy away, great. We're not going to complain. But if you already did and you don't want to order another one, we totally understand. So you can register for the event by uploading your Indie order at treatmedia.com. OK, so you click the option that says, I've already pre-ordered from another Indie.

And then you upload that, and you're going to get a link too, because we don't want you missing out. Also, one last thing. If you can't make it to the event but you still want to be part of this, we're gonna make sure that you get a link to the event that will allow you to view it for 72 hours after the event. Okay? So yay for independent booksellers. We are so grateful for them. They serve our communities in a million ways. All the benefits from this event are gonna go to

those independent booksellers. Get your tickets at treatmedia.com and we will see you there. Well, Pod Squad! It's very exciting. It is very exciting. The reason it is very exciting is that guess who's coming to join the Pod Squad today? The hosts of the new podcast, IMO, In My Opinion with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Oh my God, we love these two. Michelle Obama's passion for storytelling has set sales records, garnered awards and accolades, and earned her global acclaim. Her memoir, Becoming, love that book, spent over 130 weeks on the New York Times bestseller list,

sold more than 17 million copies worldwide. Holy cow. American Factory, the first film produced by her and her husband, Barack Obama's media company, Higher Ground, won the Academy Award for Best Documentary in 2020. Upon its release in 2020, the Michelle Obama podcast was the most successful original in Spotify history, bringing in more women listeners over 40 than any other podcast. Through the Obama Foundation, she founded the Girls Opportunity Alliance,

which supports adolescent girls' education and empowerment around the world. I'm going to read Craig's because I see a lot of sportsy things in here. He's amazing. Craig Robinson, he's the biggest love bug. I love him. He is the executive director of the National Association of Basketball Coaches and host of the higher ground podcast, Ways to Win. And from 2017 to 2020, he served as the vice president of player development and

minor league operations for the NBA's New York Knicks. Previously, he was a division one head men's basketball coach at Oregon State and Brown and spent more than a decade working as a trader in the investment banking industry. He is the brother of former first lady Michelle Obama. And if you're interested, you should check out both of their podcasts. They're doing it together. It's called In My Opinion, IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson.

And we've been on it. We're on one of the episodes. We went to Martha's Vineyard to be with them and record it. And I don't know, y'all. You know, my deep abiding admiration for Michelle Obama, but just being with them in person, just so loving, so kind, so human. Michelle is just, she's just the absolute best.

I love her and we are so grateful for them to be on and for them having us on their podcast. Y'all just listen to this one, enjoy it. It was a joy to do. It was touching. How are you two? How you doing? Good, we're so good.

Thank you for doing this. Yes. Thank you. Thank you guys. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Their podcast is crushing. We don't know. I never know what anything is. Do you like it? Yeah, really. If you like it Their podcast is crushing. We don't know.

I never know what anything is. Do you like it? If you like it, it's crushing. You guys are the pros. We love it. And that's what we want to talk to you about today. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Because what Abby and I discuss often is, I don't know if you all have noticed this, but we find life to be difficult. Yeah. Oh, why? Anything in particular? Yeah, what's going on?

What's happening? Just life. It's just like opening your eyes in the morning and seeing the world. Typically for me, that's when it starts. Okay? The opening of the eyes. And I used to only be a writer. And the challenge that I realized is the problem

with writing is then it's only me. So I'm never gonna leave knowing more than I came because it's just me. It's just right here. It's just you and your thoughts in your brain, all alone in your loop. In the loop. And so the power and beauty,

which is what M.I.O. is doing. I.M.O. I.M.O. What do I say? You said M.I.O. You're just dyslexic about it. That's right. I.M.O.

That would be what I would do. And I would say it over and over again. And Abby, I would correct her. I would correct me. Exactly. That's basically what I would do. And I would say it over and over again. And Abby, I would correct her. I would correct me. Exactly. That's basically what we do. I just guess. Yes. Is that there is a kind of new, fresh, collective wisdom that can be tapped into during conversation?

Yes. Yes. That is a beautiful. Helpful thing, which is what's happening on your podcast. Yes. OK? Because you can go into it and think, well, I know. And still, there's a freshness and newness that comes out because of the chemical reaction of two new people having a beautiful conversation.

And my brother. Yes. My big brother. It's very good. But this is how we, you know. This is how we are here in Hawaii at our house. We're doing shows every day. Are you really?

You're doing it right now. No, no, no. Just talking. But it's like doing a show. Yeah, it's exactly right. We're sitting around the table, and he's visiting me now. The whole family's here. Malia's here.

And we sit around and we talk about everything. And there's this age range because his youngest is 13, his oldest is 30, and then everybody else is in the middle. But this is how we grew up, around the kitchen table. We just didn't solve problems alone. That was never like a thought that I would ever have an issue that I wouldn't be like, mom, Craig, everyone, everyone, all the kids, we're gonna talk about this

at dinner, you know, every embarrassing moment, every stumble, so we like, let's try to do this with other folks who may not have that community, you know, who may not have that community, you know, who may not have a base of support that they can go to on a regular basis, particularly in times when people feel so lonely. Yeah. And especially during this time when we lost mom, I think both of us were thinking, ah,

now we're the old heads of the family and yikes. What do we do now? And we really are trying to be intentional about getting together on a regular basis. And this show allows us to do that once a month. We get together and do it. And it's just I'm getting goosebumps just telling you about it. That's how happy it makes me. So it's been great.

It's just been absolutely wonderful. And we just had some amazing guests and experts. makes me. So it's been great. It's just been absolutely wonderful. And we just had some amazing guests and experts. You guys, you know, we now are in love with you both. So, so in love, but you know, we've learned a lot. I mean, over dinner last night, we've been having long conversations with the younger ones about social media,

because we had a great conversation with John Height, who wrote The Anxious Generation. And I think you started implementing some of the stuff that John suggested in terms of, you know, getting kids offline and in real life and what that's doing to their brains. But we were talking to that with the kids last night at dinner. And what I was doing, being the coach, I was like, OK, one hour social media. That's it. Hard and fast rule. And Jonathan was like, no, no, no, no. You have to replace that with something if you want to get better.

Well, you guys probably know this. And so I said, well, what do we need to replace it with? He said, how about what do we need to replace it with? He said, how about a 90 minute movie? And I was like, wait, you mean replace it with television? That's great. That's doable. Yeah, that's doable.

That's doable. Yeah. Do you know, that's so interesting because we have reached the screen time moment where when we are watching a movie as a family, I'm like, oh god, we are such a good family. Like, look, we are so, with our togetherness. I'm like, wait, this is just not okay. It's good enough. Yeah. Yeah. But you got to be careful because, you know, with teenagers, I was watching this thing the

other day and a lot of streamers and networks, they're making content and the words that they use are second screens. So when your children are watching, is it second screen material enough for them to also be on their phone? Is it something that isn't as detail oriented? Oh my.

So when we're sitting on the couch with our kids and they pick up their phones, I want to like go over there and snatch the phone out of their hands. Like watch the show with us. Yes. But I can't. There's teenagers.

But why can't you? I mean, why? It's true. You can't. I know I am paying for it. Why can't we? Yes. Because now we're learning

that it's not really good for them. You know? That they're reaching for that phone out of habit, that their minds have been captured. You know, so if they were sitting there smoking a cigarette next to you, you would snatch it. You'd be like, no, you're not lighting up on my sofa,

not in the middle of this movie. But I think that that's something that, you know, we have to talk about because kids have gotten accustomed to this thing. So have we as adults. And what we're learning is that this stuff is frying their brains and it's not preparing them for real life. And it's taking away their attention span. It is messing with all of us. We didn't know this five years ago. We didn't have the information. But now that we do, it's like seat belts, you know, it's like all the things that we didn't grow up doing or knowing that it was a problem. And now we have to kind of go, this is for you, put the phone down, learn how to pay attention to something for

90 minutes, because that's what life is gonna be That's what a job is gonna require you to do and if you can't practice that like a coach You're not forcing your kids to practice attention span then they're they're not ready for the game of life That's right. You players you sports people. Well said. Well said And there's hope, I think parents, because it can be stressful because you think, oh God, I did my best and I screwed this up. But it is, you brought up smoking,

everybody was smoking, doctors were smoking. We know what we know when we know it. Our mom smoked when she was pregnant. We always tell her we could have been somebody, you know? Yeah, imagine. If you had not smoked while we... Smoke and high balls. You know, they drank, everybody had a drink.

I was like, Craig could have been six eight. I could have been six eight or six nine. You know? We've made it clear, it's like, you really didn't maximize our development, but we're okay. And that's what you say, you're fine. Yes.

Anyway. She would say that. It's a bit of an understatement. But yeah, we're having a ton of fun with the show and with IMO and we are learning some stuff. Okay. We're just so grateful to you guys for supporting it, for being a part of it. It's been just great getting to know you two. Thank you for being a part of our community. It's been terrific.

It's a dream for us. And what we wanted to talk to you about, it doesn't have to be from your podcast, but it could be. We wanted to ask you, when was the last time you read something or saw something or heard something that kind of just like saved your life in the moment that helped you put something back into proper perspective or gave you a clarity and comfort and courage to begin again. Whether it's advice or a story or just something that made you go, oh yeah, that's mind-shifting. Yeah. For me, since we talked about our losing our mom, the months before our mom died, she was with me. And it was a real special treat because we were all in

Hawaii. She would usually come in December for Christmas and then go back sometime in January, but she got sick then. And so she wound up staying until March. So we had all this amazing time with me being able to really just care for her because, you know, when she's not in DC, she's in Chicago. I live in DC with our folks, mom's in Chicago,

Craig's in Milwaukee. So we were doing a lot of caregiving from a distance, you know, which was a little stressful, but our mom liked her independence and didn't want to be a burden. So having that time with her and not knowing that our time was limited, it was special, but we were back and forth to the hospital and we had just come back from a hospital visit

and we were sitting on the sofa together watching a court show, and I reached over, grabbed mom's hand, and she looked at me and she said, wow, this is a short. And I said, what are you talking about? And she said, life. And that really hit me because our mom, first of all,

was always preparing us for her death since the time we were little. It was one of these things, it's like, you guys got this. Because I think as a parent, that's one of your biggest worries, is that you leave before your kids are ready for you to leave. So she kind of overly prepared us.

But at that point in time to seeing my mother, the shock of how short life was, that kind of snapped me into, I would say, a different kind of mindfulness about my life because I started to think, wow, yeah, life is long, but then it gets really short. And if we're lucky at 61, maybe we get 20 more summers, you know? And not in a morbid way, but it's like, you know,

this stuff gets finite and we're blessed because we're healthy and we've seen things in the world, but time is limited. And so it kind of made me think in this year, how am I being mindful now in the choices that I make about how I spend my time, where I go, what I do, who do I do it for? Because I'm also at a different time in life

where my kids are adults. So I spent most of their lifetime making decisions for them, right? Yeah, I do. Now I'm sort of free of that. I'm no longer the first lady. I mean, there are a lot of big obligations, things that I did because, you know, it was an honor.

It was my responsibility, all these things. But now in this back half, you know, in this back nine, how am I thinking about who do I, Michelle Robinson Obama, wanna be and what choices do I make for me? And I think this is really the first time in my life that I'm doing that. And I've made some decisions, as many people know, that earlier in the year about where I was gonna go,

where I was gonna be, what things I was gonna attend, and there are repercussions to that. And as a woman, we always are worried about disappointing other people. And I've spent a lot of my life making sure that I was showing up as best as I could, because I didn't want to disappoint people. And a lot of times, I made decisions

that weren't in my own best interest I think after this year, you know my mindset is okay I got to start being brave enough to make decisions for me so I think that that's probably one of the I Guess most recent examples of something that mom said to me. Of course that wisdom, that last bit of snap out wisdom came from her. Yeah.

How appropriate it is that it came from her. But I think it's changed the way that I make decisions to this day, and I'm just trying to be more mindful. Yeah. It's interesting that Misha's story is about mom because mine is about mom, but it's probably right because we just lost her. We were there with the boys, my two youngest sons are 15 and 13. And mom, they were sitting by her and they're getting to be tall too and she's snuggled up with them and she's patting them on the head.

And she said to them, okay, you don't have to sit with your grandma all day. You go ahead and do what you wanna do. They were sort of babysitting her and she didn't wanna be babysat. And then mom and I went out on the porch and she was like, you've done a good job with those two. Yeah, yeah.

It makes me wanna focus on my family. Yeah. All this other stuff that mean anything. Yeah. And enjoy life. Like Mesh puts it, it's like 20 anything. Yeah. You know? And enjoy life. Like Meech puts it, it's like 20 summers. Yeah. 20 summers?

Are you kidding me? Yeah. You put it that way. And to be able to do this with Meech and learn something new and help folks in the process, it's life changing for me. I feel like a different person getting up in the process, it's life-changing for me. I feel like a different person getting up in the morning. I feel like I'm coaching again, right?

But it's all the people who love her. I'm coaching them all. We're coaching them up. So it's really a great question. ["The Way You Look At Me"] and I'm going to be back. most of it at Best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. financial habits. Earn points for paying your credit card bill in full and on time every month. Level up from bill payer to reward slayer. Terms and conditions apply. Let's drive good together with Bonterra and Volkswagen. Buy any sustainably focused Bonterra bathroom tissue, paper towel, or facial tissue, and you could win a 2025 Volkswagen All-Electric

ID Buzz. See in store for details. Bonterra for a better planet. No purchase necessary terms and conditions apply. See online for details. What about you guys? Glennon? Well, first of all, I want to say is you are really damn lovable too. Oh, God, you're so good.

You are. Oh, man. Thank you. You know how to get me choked up. That was a good question. I know. Yeah, but what's so cool about you too, Michelle, I'm sure you feel that people are a little reticent to open up to you because of all of it.

Yeah, just iconic. I can, you can say it. She's iconic. Just comes with a lot of stuff, right? But Craig, you just have this human way about you that actually makes the relationship you both have with each other. It makes me feel so much more capable of being like a normal person around your sister. For real. That's true. I'm just so grateful to you for that. Because this is like your sister.

Like this is how you are. Anyways, we just adore you both. What's your story? And I will say, I will tell my little story, but just allow me to say one thing that I have been carrying around this letter that I wrote to you after your mom died. I brought it to Martha's Vineyard. I could not get up the courage to take it out of my pocket. Then the only reason I came to your damn holiday party,

because I don't go to parties, was to deliver this damn letter again. And then we were standing by you and Abby kept going, -"Give it to me!" -"Give me the letter!" And I got in the car and said... And I did it. So, the point is this. When I found out that your mother had died, I had this really interesting experience that

felt like I described it to Abby as like I had a very deep sinking feeling. And the sinking feeling was that having watched you for so long and feeling such admiration and also exhaustion for you and feeling like gratitude that you had the shelter of her in your life. It was comforting to everyone else who loves you to know that you had that. And so the sinking was very a sadness. But then there was like this rising that felt, I described it to Abby as like, the values that you all pointed us back towards, you know, the humility and the service and the community and the love. Having read your work, it was just so clear that it came from her.

Yeah. Yeah. That like what you brought into the White House and like, you know, beamed out to us was actually of her. So it just felt like an honoring of really truly who a founding mother of our country. That this is not a place that was founded once that it's an ongoing experiment and that her spirit and values and honor is what was given to us. So thank you for sharing her with us. And the thing that keeps me going is that

it was unique, but it exists all over the place. And I want your listeners and our listeners in times like this where we feel a little trapped and lost, it's to remember that there are so many Marianne Robinsons out there of all races and backgrounds. And there are times when we get confused and there are times when we go in the wrong direction. But at the core of who we are as humanity on this planet,

there are more people like her than there are not. at the core of who we are as humanity on this planet, there are more people like her than there are not. And she would tell you that. Yeah. She never would take credit for being singular. Yeah. She always said, and she was the ultimate team player. She was like, so-and-so's parents could do this and so-and-so's kid could do this and so-and-so's kid could do this.

So-and-so is her favorite term for any person. So-and-so. Just any fool out there. We used to get so mad when she'd get on us and just trying to be like so-and-so. So-and-so. Who's so-and-so? Who's so-and-so.

Just give us a name. Just say the person's name. But she never took any more credit than anybody else. She always said that there were kids in our neighborhood who could have been just like us. Who were smart and capable. Yes. But for a bad teacher or parent that didn't pay attention, you know, she believed in our father too in the goodness in people. Yeah. And that led me to Barack, which led me to see the country and the world

and to find that to be true. And so even when things are bad, I try really hard to remember that we're not unique, that the joy and the love and the devotion, you have it in your family. We feel it in you too. That's why people are drawn to you. The thing that we just have to remind people of is that this feeling is actually the better feeling. Like so gravitate to it, you know? I mean, it is easy to be mean and to not share and to be greedy and to cut people off and to say nasty things.

I mean, that's, you know, that's part of our defense mechanism. But we need a reminder that that's not what brings us joy. That's not what, it's not the money, it's not the power, it's not the house, it's not the power. It's not the house It's not the dollars in your bank account it's like how you treat people in life and Lately

The experiences that we've had in the loss of that core for us is it makes us want to fight for that truth even more us is it makes us want to fight for that truth even more. To shine a big light that knocks out the darkness that feels like it's suffocating us, that it's causing us to wake up every day and go, where are we? Is this what we're supposed to be? Is this who we are? The answer is no. No, we're better than this. We are so much better than this.

And better doesn't come in the form of a race or a religion or a gender or a sexuality. We all have it. We just have to call upon it. We have to have the courage to be great. That's it. Have the courage. Because great. That's it. Have the courage. Because within us all,

we all have the potential to be an All-American. You too. That's good. You too. You just, it sounds like her. Okay. I'll tell you my story. Yeah, what is it?

So I have been spiraling around in what has been an eating disorder since I was 10 years old. Okay. And I keep every five years I think I've nailed it and then back. Okay. So recently I had another slide back and it's okay I'm getting I know how to get the help that I'm getting. I was writing about it a little bit and talking about the feeling of you know when you kind of have one struggle that you just keep coming back to, like I thought I kind of always had a feeling like I was gonna have a victory. I was gonna graduate from it at

some point. I was gonna have a finish line and it just struck me that, oh I'm almost 50, so this might just be my thing and I had a feeling of whatever the feeling is for wondering if people are just sick of your thing, if they're just going, oh my God, seriously again? So I wrote about it a little bit and this stranger wrote back to me. Now, they didn't know that I was reading their responses because I'm not supposed to for my mental health. So because of that, I read everything. Okay. So no, I know it's good. Well, I don't do social media, but these are like, people don't tend to hate read a newsletter. So it's usually loving and you know, So they responded, this woman responded to me and she said, I hear you being tired of this story of yours. I want you to know that humpback whales,

when they're born, are born with one tone, one song, and they're meant to sing it every single day of their life from the time they're born to the time they die and that's their only song and that's their duty. And I thought I have not stopped thinking about it since I heard that little... It reminded me of... I was trying to explain to Abby why and I think it has to do with you know that poem by Mary Oliver, the wild geese poem that ends with like, it's about despair and struggle, but then it says really you can just take your place in the family of things. That's how it felt to me, like I'm just an animal and I've got one song and it's okay

if I spiral around it for the rest of my days. And maybe I'm meant to have it so that other people that have that same song, we can like find each other. And I don't know, it just really meant a lot to me. I don't know why stories about animals always seem to help me. I don't even go outside often. I think that's beautiful and powerful on so many levels because we are out here trying

to conform sometimes in ways that maybe that's not who we're supposed to be, you know? And instead of embracing all of ourselves, the good and the bad, the beautiful stuff and the gnarly stuff, we're taught that it all is supposed to be perfect all the time. Like you're not supposed to have problems or issues or distress. And this was also something we talked about

with Lori Santos, you know, Dr. Lori Santos who teaches the happiness course at Yale. We had a great conversation with her and I've thought about a lot of what she's talked about but our happiness bar to me is way off. You know, it's like, I think in this generation somehow, we think we're supposed to be happy and perfect. And our parents weren't like that.

And our grandparents weren't like that because there wasn't room at that time in history when there was segregation and misogyny and women were still fighting for rights, I mean, when you think about where there was a great depression, there were wars all the time. No one was raised to think that you were supposed to be happy or perfect or not to have a problem. And that that was going to be the standard

of the way you live, like always getting what you want and never really having to work through really hard things. But that's life. That's like what we are meant to do as humans on this planet, as animals, that's all we have. And I think kids today, and so many of us are sad, because when there's an imperfection or there's a block or there's a challenge, we feel completely

and utterly broken and useless, rather than feeling like, yeah, that's a thing that you're gonna be working on forever. And you're teaching with it and you're growing from it and you're sharing from it. No, it's not perfect and it doesn't always make you happy, right? Because struggle doesn't make you happy, but it also makes you strong. It also makes you wise in a very unique way. And it's reorienting our thinking about what is human life supposed to be?

And it's full of a lot of broken, messy stuff. And that's okay too. I remember at my first 12 step meeting when I fell in love with all of it, somebody said something about, well, they're not happy. And someone else said, well, being human isn't about feeling happy, it's about feeling everything. Yeah.

And I thought, oh yeah, that's right. And the other thing about struggle is it does make us stronger and it makes us wiser. It also makes me kinder. Like every time I get knocked down like this, I just feel like, oh yeah, I just feel more tender to everybody. It's just a reminder of the struggle in everyone. It's kind of an equalizer. So thank you for that. Oh, thank you. This episode is brought to you by Samsung Galaxy.

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Okay, Martin, let's try one. Remember, big. You got it. The Ford It's a Big Deal event is on. How's that? A little bigger. Ahem. The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Nice. Now the offer? Lease a 2025 Escape Active all-wheel drive from 198 bi-weekly at 1.99% APR for 36 months with $27.55 down.

Wow, that's like $99 a week. Yeah, it's a big deal. The Ford It's a Big Deal event. Visit your Toronto area Ford store or Ford.ca today. Okay, flights on air Canada. How about Prague? Ooh, Paris. Those gardens. Gardens. Um, Amsterdam. Tulip Festival. I see your festival and raise you a carnival in Venice.

Or Bermuda has carnaval. Ooh, colourful. You want colourful. Thailand. Lantern Festival. Boom. Book it. Um, how did we get to Thailand from Prague? Oh right, Prague. Oh boy. Choose from a world of destinations, if you can. Air Canada. Nice travels. What about you, babe? Well, my advice, it's funny, Michelle, you had kind of mentioned this a little bit earlier, but we have a 16 year old, a 19 year old and a 22 year old kids that are a little bit younger than yours.

And I think a little bit younger than yours. I think they're older than yours, right? Older than the two younger ones, yeah. 15 and 13. Yeah, yeah, he's got the older ones. Remember, he's the old dad. Old dad, right, right, right. Yes, yes.

So, love it. In about a year or so, we'll become empty nesters, technically. We have artists in our family, so I think they'll probably live with us after college. Do whatever you want, we said. Follow your dreams, we said. But I think they'll probably live with us after college. Do whatever you want. We said, follow your dreams. But I think that one of the things that I'm trying to cultivate in myself is like my own life outside of them right now.

I want to be prepared for this empty nest moment. And I think there's something that you said you actually were so generous to let us include it in our new book. But this is actually advice from you, Michelle, around children and raising kids. You say, it was our job all along as parents to get them to a place of not needing us. We can't wait until our kids are 23 and out of the house to teach them that they can get themselves up in the morning, that they can handle their homework, that they can deal with disputes at school

and with their friends, let them practice, let them fail, let them get hurt because that's waiting for them. We can hold on and try to fix the world for our kids, but if we do that, we're going to do that for the rest of our lives. And that really hits me. Abby's not trying to do that for the rest of her life.

Well, because I'm a fixer. That is an identity that I wear as a parent that I am like, yes, this is what I know I can do. Glennon does very different things than I do. I fix things. I'm like, oh, you need a light bulb. Oh, you have a clog in your toilet. Oh, you need money transferred from this bank account to the other. Oh, oh, oh, I can do that. But this,

the letting them have the failures and figuring some of this stuff out, that is really challenging for my personality. And this advice has kind of been life saving for me, cause now I just go, what would Michelle say right now? How hard is that though? Yeah. God. I used to think it was about really wanting to help them. I used to think, I just love them. It's just love.

I don't think it is. I think it's worthiness as a human being. I think I want them to need me. Yeah. Ooh. Right? Who am I if they don't need me? I think it's about identity

and it's like actually quite selfish to make them need you. Wow. And I also think it's about, it's about fear. Like it's hard to watch somebody you love walk up and hit their face on a wall that you know is there. Like you see it and it's like, you're about to, Oh my God.

You just, and you're like, did that hurt? Are you okay? I never want that to happen to you ever again. My little baby love, I love you so much. So it's easier to stop them from doing it. Some people may be selfish, but I think it's hard to watch the thing you love most do damage to itself.

And so it is absolutely hard. the thing you love most do damage to itself. And so it is absolutely hard. And it's hard for me to do it. That's why we're in conversation, because even me and Craig and Kelly and Barack, having other people to talk these things through with to sort of admit how hard it is to kind of check one another, to say we were having this conversation the other night,

just about when is it time to let Austin stay home by himself? Stay home by himself, and what does that mean? And there's a little, just a little pushing, and that maybe it's easy now because I'm an empty nester, but I think that's why we have these conversations because we need to coach each other into understanding what it is we're doing.

And I don't always think it's selfish. I think it's fear. It's a mix of different things. It's this feeling that of course you're gonna help somebody and give them the answer that you already have. Why wouldn't I give you that answer? But what we've learned is that your kids don't want the answer and they don't want it from you.

They wanna, whether they like it or not, they want to hit their head on the wall. At least they've done it. It's like, I did it to me because if you did it and they walk into a wall that you chose, they'll never forgive you and they won't learn from it because they'll be too never forgive you. And they won't learn from it because they'll be too busy blaming you. And it's like, I went to this college

you wanted me to go to. It's like, go to the college you want so that if you hate it, it's your choice. And now you've got to live with it. And you speak from experience because she used to bump her head around the house all the time when she was a kid. Really? Like literally? Oh, she still got a scar on her forehead

from running into the cabinet. But metaphorically, I was that kid. I wanted to do it myself, too. She didn't want help. She didn't want help. I didn't. I was like, I can figure it out. I'll take my lumps. And to our mom's credit, she didn't allow me to help her. Yeah.

Because I was that big brother. I was like, come with me. He was you, Abby.'t allow me to help her. Cause I was that big brother. I was like, come with me. I'm gonna look at it. He was you Abby. I'm gonna fix it. I got it. I'm gonna fix it. I'll fix it for you.

You come with me, I'm gonna show you how to play baseball. You're gonna do everything with me. And if something happens, I'm gonna fix it. And my mom, before we leave the house, do not look after your sister. You do not have to look after her. She can look after herself. Oh yeah. Wow. And I felt that too. I was like, you don't have to look after your sister. You do not have to look after her. She can look after herself. Oh yeah.

Wow. And I felt that too. I was like, you don't have to look out for me. I got this. My seven years of life. I got it. Got this. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then boom, right into the cabinet. Right into the wall. But it was her choice. I'm good.

It was her choice. I'm good. Yes, it hurt. But I know that cabinet is there. That's right. Now you know to go the other way. Are you a fixer too, Craig? So I would have been a fixer if it wasn't for my mom sending

me in the right direction early, because my wife Kelly is the fixer of the two of us. And we work well together, because I'm a little bit more, ah, let him go out there and do it himself. And she's a little more, boy, I don't know. They're still my babies. And I wanna make sure life is good for me for as long as I can.

And we're both getting better at it. We're both getting better at it. So this next week, I'm heading down to the final four and we're taking our youngest son and we're leaving the 15 year old at home by himself for the first time. Okay. Do do do. Dun dun dun.

Dun dun dun. It's going to be fine. Okay, well in that vein, Ben, we wanted you both to provide us with the one piece of advice if you had to give to your kids, you're only allowed to give them one sentence to live by, what would it be? For me, it's easy. We have this conversation all the time. It's like, learn how to make your own happiness. You know, I tell the girls the secret power is learning how to be satisfied in life, whatever your life is right then and there.

You know, learn to be satisfied with what you have. Learn to find the joy in what you have right now. Do not look over at the other person's plate and covet what they have. Don't try to keep up with the Joneses. Live within your means and learn how to do it on your own because it's like no one, no thing, as I've learned in life, makes you happy, but you. I want them to learn that now so that they are not getting married to be happy

or to feel loved, that they're not taking a job, to have some title that they're not getting married to be happy or to feel loved, that they're not taking a job to have some title that they loved or trying to make a certain amount of money because they think that's gonna make them happy. You are in control of your own joy and you have to be control. I don't want them to have kids to be happy. I don't want them to think, oh, I'm not happy.

Let me have a baby. And it's like, nope. Don't do that. Because the baby is not responsible for you. You are responsible for the baby. So don't have a baby to have a friend or to feel better. So that's something I say again and again, learn how to be by yourself,

learn how to live within your means. Learn how to be satisfied with what you have. Do not always think that the grass is greener because usually it isn't. You have to make your own grass green. Love it. Now, Misha is gonna get mine because we heard this growing up from mom

and it's the same thing. And I think it's even magnified today with social media. Do not worry about what anybody thinks outside of this house. That's good. That's good. My mom always made us feel self-assured before we ever walked out of the house. And she would check in on us when we came back in by asking questions. And if we said we were doing something because someone else said something or did something. So and so.

So and so. You know so and so is always doing this or that. So we are trying to raise our kids. Our two oldest kids have embraced this, right? But the two younger ones are still developing, and now with social media, it's so hard. Everybody is liking you and liking your things and judging you. And just don't fall for it. Don't fall for the okie doke, as we say. Just do not worry about what other people think you know what's

right you know how to behave you know how to be successful you know how to work yep that's all you need what about you guys good I was just thinking about when I was teaching and really it really didn't matter I know we all worry about how our kids are going to be treated at school and bullying is not okay and needs to be addressed and all of that. Yes, yes, yes. But there was always, no matter what was going on in the classroom, an okayness to the kids who knew they were okay with their families. Like whose parents, it was like, it was okay if the whole world was telling them they weren't okay.

If they could look at their parents and their parents knew in their bodies, in their eyes, in their tone, that their babies were okay. And just a good reminder of what people say about don't take criticism from anyone you wouldn't take advice from. It's like, yeah, why do we listen to every single damn thing anyone says about us? People we would never trust with our... Well we're too connected. We have too much connection on social media. It's not real connection. It's too much fake connection with random people we'll never meet, never know. We were not engineered for this.

That's right. Truly, we weren't. And it causes anxiety. And I stopped social media about six months ago, and I have felt, I've told Abby this a million times, but the difference for me is as dramatic as when I quit drinking. Yeah.

My entire nervous system. And I know we're always talking about the mechanics of it, but I think it's the comparison of it. I think it's like, I feel okay in my life. I love my life. I love my job. I love my wife. I love my kids.

And then I get on that phone and I start thinking, oh, maybe I'm not doing enough. Maybe this is better. Maybe it's just this constant grass is greener. And I think about what that must do to the little ones if it's doing it to me. Anyway, what's your advice, babe? Oh.

One sentence. Well, the thing that I would say to the kids that I- You would say, stop taking my damn charger. Yes. That's what you would say. Yes. I have a pro, I'm the youngest of seven kids. So I have probably too much attachment

to my stuff because it was always taken and never asked to be borrowed. And so, but the charger thing, it just, I shouldn't have brought it up. It's too early. I go down a rabbit hole. What I would say though, in all seriousness to the kids, and this is something that, you know, when I was in high school I had a guidance counselor unfortunately for this person I won't say her name but she asked me she said what do you want to do with your life and I said I want to play soccer and this is in 1997 or something there was no such thing as like women's professional soccer I know that sounds wild to think about because it's so prevalent and

popular now, but that's where we were. She said, well, you're not going to get anywhere playing women's soccer. There's nothing for you. And I'm like, well, I mean, I'll figure it out. You know, like, I'm going to figure it out a way. And she was like, you are never going to figure it out. And I bet you will never be a soccer player. She says this to me. Yeah. Oh, that's awful. I know. It was really upsetting.

And so when I went back a couple of years, five, six years later, after I had won a gold medal and all of this stuff, I'm too nice to like throw it in somebody's face, you know? But I really wanted to. Oh yeah, I bet. You know? So I guess my advice would be don't ever let anybody tell you you can't do something. Because you know, social media, the media, your friends, even your parents might tell you in words or in body language or in whatever that maybe the choices you're making are not necessarily good. And if it is a love, a joy and a passion, I didn't know that I was going to make a career

out of playing soccer. There was no way that I was going to do it. I just, I mean, I was in eighth grade before Olympics was, women's soccer was in the Olympics and I was writing, I'm gonna win a gold medal playing women's soccer one day. Yeah. We can dream things into reality. So that would be my advice.

I like that. Good stuff. I would have tell mine, but I changing mine because I feel like I want to go back to what Michelle was saying in the beginning, which was so inspiring to me about living this era of your life to not disappoint yourself. Because our middle one came home a while back and said, I had this thing at school and Chase, who's our oldest, he wants me to join all these clubs

because he was like Mr. Club Man and doing all the things. And she was like, I don't wanna be in these clubs. And I was like, well then what are you doing? Like don't be in the clubs. And she said, I don't wanna disappoint him. And I thought, oh, okay. So your job your whole life is to disappoint everybody. That's right.

Let me give you an assignment. That is literally your job. You have to disappoint everybody so that you don't disappoint yourself. And then I was talking to my Liz Gilbert, one of my best friends and I was telling her that story about the kids. And she said, even think about that word disappoint to disappoint someone you've already appointed them. You've appointed a different person, the boss of yourself or the leader of your life. So your job is to dethrone them over and over again, every single day.

It's like, I'm in charge. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I think we all have different versions of the same. We do. Thing. All right, so let's end with this. So you can get back to your vacay.

Yes. What is the thing you do? Let's say you don't have each other. You don't have the people to talk to. You do not have the communal wisdom to tap into. What do you do when you have to just find your inner wisdom? Do you have a practice? Do you meditate?

Do you walk? Do you paint? What do you do when you need to tap into your own knowing? I do one of two things. I either go walking or I do a morning shower as opposed to a nighttime shower. A morning shower is when to a nighttime shower. A morning shower is when I think the best, even better than walking.

And I don't know what it is about it. It could just be the morning. I could just be a morning person. But when I need to sort of clear my mind and come up with really cool ideas or think about a problem that I'm not talking to anybody. The morning shower and shave, it's about a 20 minute shower and it's clarity for me.

Great. I love it. And you're clean. And you're clean. And you're clean. And you're clean. And you're clean. And you're clean.

And you're clean. And you're clean. And you're clean. And you're clean. And you're clean Well, for me, it's probably retreating. I do get so much energy from people. I don't get tired of people generally. I am an extrovert and a people person. And a great host, hostess. Well, and that's also because I don't, you know,

I don't get tired. I don't get worn out. I don't get tired. I don't get worn out. I don't get drained. Honestly, I don't. But sometimes all of that interaction keeps my mindful and I don't take the time to really sit quietly. So when I really need to kind of assess, I go quiet and I can spend a couple of days alone, no social media, not reading the news headlines, withdrawing from all of the inputs, you know,

especially when it comes to outside noise, right? No news, no, not even reading the clips, right? No news, no, not even reading the clips, not taking in any outside anything and sitting by myself, oftentimes in nature somewhere where I can hear an ocean or see something green or take in fresh air. There are days there's a spot in Hawaii in our house where if nobody is around, I will go to that one spot where I can see just everything and I can see nature happening and I can sit in that spot for an entire day. And I find that I just can get some clarity there. So to me, it's retreating. It's retreating into myself. Beautiful.

Yeah. How about you, babe, before we go? Same. Mine's just walking. The bath, I would say for her. Oh, bath. I take like three baths a day, you guys. Yeah. Oh, really?

So I do. I take far too many baths. A lot of retreating. No judgment. It's just something about the water, right? It's clarity. The water. yeah, it's starting over. It's baptism for a reason. It's like, I need to begin again. Some sort of tears, bath, something.

But I also think the shower, I mean, our youngest used to say, all these magical things happen to me in the shower. And I would say that's called thinking. That's because you don't have earbuds in. It's like Googling your brain. Like that's what people do, is they think. That's what's happening.

You two are damn delight. We want you to go right back to your vacation and your family time together. We absolutely love your new podcast. We're gonna be shouting it from the rooftops. And we're so grateful to both of you. Thank you. We love you.

We love you so much. Love you guys, yes. And we're just grateful, happy to have you in our lives. And I'm waiting for the letter, okay? Okay, okay. All right, all right. I'm gonna get it to you. All right, you gotta work up the nerve

and just like, you know, just deliver it. Five more meetings. Now I really, really want to see it. I need to see it. I want to be there now. I want to be there when you give her the letter. Cause then if you punk out, I'm going to make you give it to her. Now it's too much accountability.

Now it's going to happen. She's done it now. We love you guys. Thank you so much. Pod Squad, we will see you next time. Absolutely. We love you guys. Thank you so much. Pod Squad, we will see you next time. Absolutely. If this podcast means something to you, it would mean so much to us.

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