We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Natalie Portman: How to Know When to Say YES

Episode Date: July 7, 2022

1. The moment Natalie called Abby to invite her to be part of Angel City FC–the first majority, women-owned soccer franchise. 2. How to stop people-pleasing and learn to recognize a full body YES from inside of you. 3. Why and how Natalie shows up for big projects before she’s ready or qualified. (Dude Moves). 4. The best advice Natalie’s ever received–and why women should “Gossip Well.” 5. How Natalie counters gender expectations by over practicing empathy with her son and decisiveness with her daughter. 6. What Natalie says when a man suggests a woman is “crazy” or “difficult.” About Natalie: Natalie Portman is an Academy award-winning actress (BLACK SWAN), director, author, and activist. In Summer 2022, Portman will be hitting the big screen, returning to the Marvel universe as ‘Jane Foster’ in THOR: LOVE AND THUNDER. Previously Natalie appeared in Pablo Larraín’s film, JACKIE, in which she starred as First Lady Jacqueline F. Kennedy. For the role, Portman was nominated for an Academy Award, a Golden Globe, a Screen Actors Guild Award, a BAFTA Award, and won the Critics’ Choice Award. She wrote, directed, produced, and starred in A TALE OF LOVE AND DARKNESS, which made its world premiere at the 2015 Cannes Film Festival and its North American premiere at the 2015 Toronto International Film Festival. Other past film credits include Noah Hawley’s LUCY IN THE SKY, Brady Corbet’s VOX LUX, and Alex Garland’s highly anticipated second feature, ANNIHILATION. Natalie and her producing partner Sophie Mas recently inked a first-look TV deal with Apple TV+ for their production company MounatainA. Through this deal, they are producing the Apple Original limited series LADY IN THE LAKE, which will be Natalie’s TV acting debut. Natalie’s other past production credits include the documentary EATING ANIMALS, which she executive produced and narrated. The film examines mankind’s dietary choices and is based on Jonathan Safran Foer’s memoir. In addition to her film work, Portman devotes her time to several humanitarian causes, with an emphasis on supporting women and girls. She is also a founder of National Women’s Soccer League team Angel City Football Club. In Fall 2020, Portman released her debut picture book, NATALIE PORTMAN’S FABLES, which is a New York Times’ Bestseller. Portman is a Harvard graduate with a degree in psychology and studied at Hebrew University in Jerusalem. IG: @natalieportman To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. Welcome friends. Back to we can do hard things today. My boss is here.

Yes, Abby's boss. Is he gonna call her boss? Oh, that's right. I was like, me? I know that's what I thought, me. Obviously I'm here. No, Natalie Portman. She's Abby's boss because she's the big boss of Angel City.

She's big boss. Yeah, the soccer team. Yeah. Angel City of which Natalie Portman is the big boss and you're a little boss. I'm a little boss, she's big boss. Yeah. So big boss is here today. Natalie Portman, Natalie Portman is an Academy Award-winning

actress, director, author, and activist this summer. Portman will be on the big screen, returning to the Marvel universe as Jane Foster in Thor, Love, and Thunder. Natalie appeared in Jackie, in which she starred as First Lady Jacqueline F. Kennedy and was nominated for an Academy Award, a Golden Globe, a Screen Actors Guild Award, a BAFTA Award, and one, the Critics Choice Award.

Portman devotes her time to several humanitarian causes with an emphasis on supporting women and girls. She's also a founder of National Women's Soccer League team Angel City Football Club Woot. Woot. Woot, Woot. Her book, Natalie Portman's Fables, is a New York Times bestseller. Portman is a Harvard graduate with a degree in psychology, and she studied at Hebrew University

in Jerusalem. Natalie, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. We wanted to start with the story about Abby's speech at times up and your reaction to it and how that played into your formation of Angel City. Can you just tell us that story from your perspective? Well, thank you both for having me on. I love you both so so much. You both added so much to my life already, so I'm so grateful to know you. I can't believe I know you as well as have you as my role models. But I think there's an even earlier Abby influence story on time's up that you might not even be aware of

was that your wolf pack speech at Barnard was circulated among all the women very early on and everyone started calling us like each other, wolf pack within our group in times up, that was probably why they wanted you to speak in the first place at our conference. That was already so influential and impressive, I think, just as just a way of thinking of other women

and a new way of operating with other women. I think after having been socialized for so long to see competition and different kinds of modeling of behavior between women, a way that we could compete together instead of against each other. It was pretty exciting. And then when I heard you speak, and we all heard you speak at the Times Up conference that year, it was mind-blowing to hear your experiences as Virtuo, so star, best athlete in your field in the world and your experiences when you retired of being uncertain about your future and how different that was for your male counterparts. And to understand that this very central cultural field, athletics, I guess, in general, could be. So have such different valuing of male and female players really just blew my mind and

really started me and a lot of other people thinking. So anyway, thank you again for that. I said it before and I'll keep saying it forever, but it really changed so many of the way many of us have looked at the world. Well, and then two years ago, I get this random IG direct message from Natalie Portman, folks. She says, can I call you?

And I'm like, yes, Natalie Portman, here's my number. And so then you call me and then you told me two years ago and I'm like, yes, Natalie Portman, here's my number. And so then you called me and then you told me two years ago, and this must have been a year-ish later since the Times Up event. And you tell me that you're starting Angel City FC in Los Angeles and you asked me to be a part of the investor ownership group. And I just was floored. I was so beyond. And I just think it's so important for people to understand though that this

is the first majority women own soccer franchise for girls obviously and women. You also started it for boys. Can you tell us about that? Well, my son, who's 11 now, was an incredible influence and inspiration and wanting to create this. He got so into the women's world cup, I think he was around 7 or 8. And he had the experience of being, and I think he was like 5 or 6 at the men's world cup, when France won, my husband's French, so it was like the greatest thing that could ever happen to you, a French child. And then a couple years later,

the US women, when the women's World Cup, and I mean, it was waking up in the middle of the night all hours, and I had to confront my own bias because the first time I saw him put on a women's game, I was like, oh god, he's going to realize it's a women's game because it was all on, I think it was like Fubo or something that has like all the soccer games. And it just says like, France versus Germany. And I was like, he's not going to realize that it's women, he's going to realize it's women, he's going to turn it off. And he was like, amazing, the best players in the world.

Totally, of course, did not matter at all to him. And I was like, oh, this is my weird stuff. From the way I grew up that I'm putting onto it. And of course, he loves soccer. He wants to see the best players in the world. If it's a bad game, he'll turn it off. If it's a men's game or a women's game. If it's a great game, he will watch it, like, you know, in the most participatory, like, heartfelt way. And that's when I was like, oh, every kid should have the opportunity to see players of all genders be virtuosic, you know,

what a dream to get to identify with, idolize people from all backgrounds, from all genders, and made it maybe like, oh, this needs more amplification. Like, why does the World Cup get this kind of amplification and then national women's league games don't get the same kind of amplification? Yeah, and that teaches little boys not to respect girls in in city-as-ways. So when they watch people who are women achieve at things that they love, it helps early on,

even the playing field of how we perceive each other. Well, I think also we know that as girls growing up, we've been asked to get excited by and identify with an idolized male athletes. And that seems totally possible. Like I could grow up thinking that, you know, Michael Jordan was great. And I was never like, I can't do that because we're not the same gender.

So why not have the converse be true? It doesn't make any sense. You said that girls know their power. We need the boys to know it. It's like we're not trying to empower girls so much as we're trying to stop the world from getting in the way of girls power. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Well put. Yes. That's good. Before we move on from the soccer, I just do have to say that that day that you called an Abby, I have never in the history of our marriage sat with you so stunned. I don't know what, if you know how much it meant personally because she went through the ranks, all of the men, that's their dream afterwards, is to own a team. That's the path, like that's what you do. But the women didn't even allow themselves to dare that.

So to have that be part of her life, I mean, it's part of the reason we moved out of life. It has been like kind of heart shifting and life shifting for Abby and the other women. Well, it made me feel a little bit like I didn't dream big enough in some ways because like here Natalie Portman shows up with this like whole idea bubble that completely opened my mind to the rest of my life. So it's not just this, it's like, wait, I think I've been thinking, and by the way, I'm the dreamer of all dreamers. Maybe I'm thinking a little bit too small about my life.

Maybe there are other places. So I just think that sometimes it's really important that we show up for each other. And what people don't understand is the way that Natalie wants to operate this majority-owned women's team is she wants to put women at the center. And you offered ownership stakes to this team, to the other women that have built women's soccer in the United States. Nobody does that. You ask some of me and my former teammates. There's 11 or 12 of us that are part owners of Angel City FC because you wanted to pay respect in some ways

to these women who actually helped build women's soccer to where it is. There's just, you are a big boss. It's good, Natalie. You're a big boss. Thank you for saying that, but I mean, it's really built on you and your teammates' shoulders. I mean, you all started it.

Your passion of dedication to it grew this sport, made it as exciting as it is today. Started the fight for women's fair pay in the field. It's all of your work and dedication. We're like, late-comers who are like, oh, they all did all this really awesome stuff. Let's be part of this, you know? It's also, I think, taking the experts who have built it, like your leadership and your knowledge and expertise as are guiding light.

And I think it's, you know, it's been a big learning experience. For all of us in so many different ways, rapid in some ways and slow in other ways, but definitely, you know, we rely on you and on our current players, the players for the team also, that I think there's so much leadership and knowledge that we're gaining. And that's the center of it all. It just also goes to show women in leadership positions and how they choose to start franchises or businesses. They don't forget how they got there.

To me, that is an elemental part of starting the culture of something that can last for hopefully hundreds of years, right? So I'm just so grateful to you, big boss. It's competing together, what you just said. Exactly. I love that competing together instead of competing with each other. Natalie, this podcast is called We Can Do Hard Things.

What is hard for you in your life right now? Everything. Yeah. Perfect. Is that big enough? Wow, I find everything so challenging. But I try to pretend that it's easy. I mean, sort of Abby, what you were saying about,

I didn't even think that dream was possible. I feel like maybe my heroic flaw is that, like, I don't realize how big stuff is that I take on symptoms or how unprepared or unknowledgeable I am, which I'm grateful for because I think I do try things that are too hard for me. And that I'm not really capable of. And then I have to kind of like meet the challenge

or you know, fail and get over failing quickly. But yeah, I'm learning that it's something that's unusual to me that I'm like, oh, sure. I'm basically a ballerina. And then I get there and I'm like, oh, shit. I don't know anything about this. And I'm like, oh, God, I don't know anything about this. And I'm like, oh, God, I've got to figure this out somehow. You know, got to figure out how to bake it.

Similarly, like, yeah, let's do a soccer team. And then I'm like, oh, anything, about anything, I'm making mistakes on every front. I guess that's part of it is like not knowing that it's going to be okay if you fail unless you're like a heart surgeon then not okay. Yes. Not okay to fail. And then also yeah maybe a little ignorance is bliss for taking on hard things. Yeah I love that. So you just you have the idea of just showing up and saying yes before you've decided you're completely qualified, which is, is, is a huge, that's behaving like a man. Yeah.

Dude moves. Dude moves. Dude moves. I'm obsessed. Okay. All right. You don't have to have qualifications. No. That's right. Big, bigger, basically. I know. I'll read that. I don't read that. So fake. Those are big boss moves. Yes, that's right.

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about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself. Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay, so we want to talk about some of the cages you've fought in our fighting your way out of, which are common to so many of us. One of them is people pleasing. So you said that the messaging to you as a young woman, as it was for many of us, was to focus on making yourself attractive and pleasing other people as opposed to focusing on what you want. So how did you break out of that cage of people pleasing, or how do you still, because I assume it's a daily thing, right?

Is it? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And it's actually been something really amazing that Cara Nortman has, one of my co-founders at Angel City has influenced a lot, because she introduced me to an executive coach because that's one of those roles that I took on that I was so unprepared for. And one of the big things that I work on

with her is she actually talks kind of about personality types and my type is very, very much about caring a lot about pleasing people. And it was first of all interesting for me to understand that everyone operates in different ways, and that might not be like a universal motivating factor for everybody. I think a lot of it has to be like remembering and relearning how to recognize your own desires. Because when you're pleasing, it's very hard to distinguish between what other people want. You get really good at reading other people's minds.

Yes. And that's one thing, which the coach that I work with her name is Diana, says, remember, that's also your superpower so that you don't just hate it about yourself, like you're really good at knowing what other people want. And that's an asset and use it and speak up about it when you know that. And then also, paying attention and she calls it a full body, yes. She has great meditations about it. Her organizations called conscious leadership. And I highly recommend it. They have some publicly available Meditations about thinking about something that you have a whole body. Yes

to and feeling it in your body and what that feels like and then thinking about something that was a whole body. No and Feeling what that feels like in your body and kind of naming like where that is in your body and recognizing that and then also Something that's in the middle, you know and understanding what that feels like in your body and kind of naming like where that is in your body and recognizing that, and then also something that's in the middle, you know, and understanding what that feels like in your body. And then going for things that are whole body yeses, it's a physical experience and practicing what's the physical experience of, yes, I completely want this. I know I completely do not want this and those in between situations, which I think is kind of the biggest thing when you are very aware of other people's desires for you.

Have you been able to use that outside of your executive rule? Have you been able to use that in your personal, the whole full body thing? I think it's almost more in personal life than an executive. Like executive, I don't know what anyone wants for me. I don't know what I want. It's a full body. I don't know. I'm like, a full body.

No idea. A full body is out of body. Out of body. Out of body. With personal, I have more experience. I have, you know, 40 years experience of whatever one wants for me and understanding what everyone wants me to do. I think it's so it's so important though because I think when we try to think about what we want or what we don't want or what we think about something or we always go to our mind to try to figure

it out. But what we have discovered again and again is that it's never there. We do that full body thing, but we call it what feels warm or what feels cold or what feels big or what feels like clinchy. It's so very. No, but it's great to put it in any kind of physical terms, because also that's objective experience. Yes. Whereas thoughts and feelings are so subjective and confusing, but like physical experiences

feels good, doesn't feel good. Yeah. I have a friend who is a writer. She calls it like she wants to be more like her dog where she's like, person's nice, I go towards. Person that nice, go back up. Yeah. It really is relying on your instincts.

The body knows. That's right, the body doesn't let. And it's not like a dog is like, oh, but I want that person to think I'm sweet. Right? Right? I don't want to hurt that person's feeling. Yes.

Right. Also, dogs will bite. And I think if we would bite a little bit more, people would treat us better. That's right. Oh, that's a lot. It was a blast. It was a blast.

Full body, yes. Last full body, yes. Last full body, yes. Good question. I was just away from my kids a couple days working and when I saw them, it was just so like, all I wanted to do was hug them. And that was very full like, oh my gosh, I was just pure, pure desire.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ever since I heard what Erin Offsky told you during Black Swan, I've been saying it to myself over and over. Do you know what I'm referring to? I'm wondering if it's the like, do one for yourself. Yes.

Is that where? Yes. Can you tell that story because I've been saying it to myself and may tattoo it on my body. Oh, I'm so happy. It's a great direction. I try and remind myself to when I'm working, especially, but you know, when you're shooting something you do so many takes and you'll do the same thing over and over and the director probably similar to a coach and athletics, like gives you feedback and then you try and alter based on the feedback to please them. And Darren would do that and then at the end when he felt he got it, he was like now do one for

yourself. And that was always the best one. And it was wild because he would always do it when he felt like he got what he wanted. And then you just work completely free. And then he was saying, like those are the takes he ended up using. And it was really revolutionary for me to be able to, for the first time, really think about just for my own being. When you talk about desire and separating that from all the things in our head that we think we're supposed to want or want to do, to please other people, what do you think about

desire right now for you? What do you desire most in your life? Besides such an old lady answer. Besides sleep. Yeah, I know. That's where we all went. That's the whole thing I could think of. I was like, really want to sleep.

Fair enough. Yeah, I hate that that's my answer. I think I design a nature a lot too right now. I feel like that's like a post pandemic, nature and community, the guy like really miss community from being so isolated and really miss nature from or not miss it but like realize how important it is I think when you're inside a lot. What is your community? Is that friendship, are you talking about friendship,

are you talking about families that you hang out with? What does community look like for you? We're trying to figure that out for ourselves, so I'm actually curious about. No, I think it's the toughest thing. I think it's like a very American predicament because we are so like, oh, you move where your career takes you, it's very removed from the village model of you live where your parents lived and where your grandparents lived and then

everyone's in the same area and you have like a structure and a ritual of, you know, people, you dinner together this day of the week and people go to church this day of the week and there's this community game and there are places that are still like that, but I think a lot of us are, and especially in big cities, are really removed from that, and then it's really complicated to find community, and then, pandemic obviously exacerbated that, and then it does become around school, or kids, or kids sports, so like like you end up hanging out with the people that you spend the most time with which becomes a lot definitely when you have kids like around that which is amazing you meet a whole new group of people

It becomes like you have several Communities and not one and there's people from work and there's the people from your kids and there's the people from your family and there's happened to be living in the same city as you. You know, aren't necessarily like your immediate family and it's wild and it's definitely another puzzle. I don't know, what are your words of wisdom around building community? Well, I think it's a good idea in general. She's a full body, yes, to it. No, I haven't been though my whole life

because I've been, I got sober and then my whole life was kids. Which was your community? That was my, you thought that was what I could handle. Right. But now the kids are getting older, Natalie. So she's going, oh shit. Oh shit, what?

I'm gonna have to look at Abby forever. Right. So we have been practicing. We've been practicing actually making friends and being in community, which means you have to call people back and you have to hang out with them. Remember things. And it's kind of beautiful. It's starting to make me feel very tethered like a village.

And so I don't know, I recommend it, but maybe not until the kids are older. Yeah. So I just got into this community of my family. And one of the things that I'm kind of obsessed with is trying to be, I don't know, the best version of myself parent-wise. And I'm curious because I've been reading a little bit about your theory on over practice and under practice with kids. Can you talk a little bit about that? Love it, by the way. Oh, so tell me more. Yes, so let me not only here's your theory.

Okay. Yes, your theory is that. And I'm just saying my own words. It must might not be your theory. This is what I want your theory to be. Great. I'll make it my theory, because I want to please you. Okay. Okay.

Yes. So the idea that our culture does, of course, teach some gender certain things, overtaches them certain things, and overtaches another gender certain things. So what you talked about was that with your little boy, you might over practice empathy and connection and sensitivity, not because it's more important for boys to be that than girls,

but because the culture has already handled the other side for them. Am I getting this right? So yes. Okay, yes. Okay, now you're making it much more eloquent than I've ever right? So yes. Okay, yes. Now you're making it much more eloquent than I've ever said it. I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. But yes, I've talked about it in relation to my children's book that I wrote.

Yes. I made more characters, female, not more like it's balanced in the book, but that I had noticed that so many of the children's book I was reading were largely male characters. And so I felt that girls have over-practiced identifying with male characters similar to what we're talking about with athletic heroes that girls have the practice of identifying and also some of this pleasing sensitivity that I talk about in myself, I think has to do with that over-practice of getting into the mind of a male protagonist

and being like, what do they want? And so in fiction, whether it's books or movies or TV shows, I feel like I'm so used to like getting into the mind of the male and that I think that the underrepresentation of female characters in those fictional scenarios where we do empathize and relate to characters and particularly for kids that boys could use more practice by getting into the female mind and that what a different world it would be

if boys were walking around imagining what the females around them were desiring. The same way that we are raised to be like, how do they want me to act? How do they want me to dress? How do they want me to look? What shape would they like my body to be? That like we're so hyper aware

and hopefully also that girls by entering female minds practicing female minds practicing like puts them more into themselves as well and more into their own desire. I mean I guess again this personal, personal challenge that I work through myself, I hope to change those patterns that I feel like I grew up with for my kids, which I'm sure you have your own that you focus on with yours. I love it. It is. It's a different just when it's asking your little boy,

how do you think they're feeling? And then asking your little girl, how do you feel? It's just practicing. Yeah, well, my wolfpack book, how oftentimes oftentimes I'll be on stage and being asked about it. And they'll say, this is a women's leadership book. And I'm like, it's actually just a leadership book. In fact, if you read it, the note to the reader invites men into the concepts that are written about it, though it's written from a woman's perspective, it also is just a leadership book.

And we have to invite men and boys into the mindsets of the perspective and the lens through all genders, not just women, right? We're talking about non-binary people too. So I love that. I've had men come up to me after speeches again and again and say, I love this.

Who is the male version of this? Yes. I'm like, wow. I've had to sit and listen and read so many books by men. And I just find myself in it, right? I don't say, right. Damn it. Where's the woman verse? Like, so fascinating. This is why I love the practice term because they're coming by it honestly. They've never practiced. It's the way that we grow up having to practice the fact that he actually means everyone. Right. It actually just means he, but we have had to practice so much reading as if that represents

us, but they've never had to practice that way ever. And so I love that idea. I've never heard it put that way that visualizing a woman as a main character is not only liberating to a little girl to see herself as a main character. It's a boy practicing a world in which a woman is not just a supporting character. Yes.

No, I think that's such a great way. That's such a great way of putting it because it is in all the languages that are gendered, you know, how you make plural is always male. And so it is true that male starts to represent everyone. If you have to go to a generic term in the previous version of they, like that we use in non-binary language, now that in other languages, that's kind of been the default setting that male was, non-specific gender. And that's really interesting just like one of those things of how language affects the way you think.

What would it be if the female could be universalized? Exactly. Like the female being is really exciting to think about. Well we say fireman. What's the big deal? We can all find ourself in fireman. Yeah. Okay. If we can all find ourself in fireman, then why don't we just for a century call them all fire women. Right. Because then certainly all the men can find themselves in fire women. It's really good. Yeah. And then everyone's like, well, sure as hell, we can't do that. Right.

Exactly. It's so interesting to see how our own conditioning is like, oh, we should find ourselves in that. Yeah. Well, not to get too far on a gender thing, but in the language piece Natalie, they've done studies where certain words like the word bridge in certain languages are feminine and certain language are masculine in the countries where they're masculine people report bridges as being strong and fortifying in the languages where they are feminine. They are seen as precarious and beautiful. Wow.

And so it's a bridge. It's a bridge you go. It's just one feminine one's masculine. So it's just fascinating. Wow. Yeah, it's always so magical too, would you like see that words like that, like an animate object are gendered and other languages. And you're like, what led the, you know, table to being female in this country and mail it in others?

Yes. So, so wild. It's like a whole, it's whole on subject. Yeah. A whole pie, another pie cast. Yeah. We'll do that one next week. Yeah.

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Sister and I were talking about this the other night in reference to you because you said something about how when you were kind of led to become a leader through Times Up or a million things, that you kind of had to give up likeability privilege, just how we

call it. Like Sister always says, okay, as a woman, you can either be liked or you can lead. So pick one. Do you think that that's true? Do you think that as a woman leadership does mean giving away likability? Or control the question. It's a good question. Yeah, and that's a good distinction too. You definitely can't control anything. It's the ever, which is also part of the thing I'm trying to learn. But yeah, I think it's true. I think you certainly have to not care as much about legability.

It is just inevitable that basically being specific about anything makes you not like a ball to somebody. And when you care about pleasing people and making people like you, then you want to just be universal, which is watery. And so, yeah, so to take a stand on anything is absolutely gonna make some people go, nope, not you, not into you. And that is a big step to take. I mean, it's those far braver things humans have done in life, but it was definitely a hurdle to get over.

I like Big Boss. Yeah, I did. I like Big Boss and I cannot lie. I was waiting. Of Yeah, I did. I like Big Boss and I cannot lie. I was waiting of course you asked 40 minutes, but we got there. And I just I do want to point out that I feel like with men there is more of you, you're going to take a stand, be specific, people aren't going to like you. But I think with women, it almost doesn't even matter what you're specific about. Because the thing that is unlikable is the leadership at all. Yeah.

Is the having a strong opinion? Is the believing in yourself? Is the wanting, is being ambitious or powerful or saying, I have something that needs to be said? So it almost doesn't even matter what you're saying. It's that you're saying it that bumps up on people's unlikable. There's just something about her.

You know, I just related so much to that. When you talk about times up, you gave two really awesome pieces of advice, which I loved so much. One was gossip well. Can you talk to us about what it means to gossip well? Can you talk to us about what it means to gossip well? I think that something I learned

is, and I'm still learning too, is the kind of language that we've used about other women that we've participated in, that I've participated in, I will take responsibility of either saying it myself or repeating what other people say, and things about women that like, and I mean, it can be about men too. I mean, gossip is, can be toxic about anyone, about all genders. But about women, there's certainly certain words that we use. And also something I realized was that sometimes people

were telling me gossip as a way of tarnishing someone's reputation after they had done something to them. Which is a crazy revelation for me too. It was like, oh, this director I worked with who I really liked and was very nice to me, told me this bad thing about another actress. And I repeated that information.

And then I realized he did something bad to that actress. And it's trying to diminish her power so that he doesn't get into trouble by saying that she's difficult or crazy or whatever. And that was like 10 years after the fact, but I think that to be hyper aware of those words of crazy, of difficult, of bitchy, of, you know, the awful words that people use about women. And then use the constructive parts of gossip. There are constructive parts. If it is sharing information, like, that is a dangerous person, be careful. That is constructive, like, women talking to each other. There are constructive ones of gossip. This is a great person. You should go there. That person's really funny. That person's really great to work with. That person stay away. Careful.

There's constructive and there's destructive. I'm against drama inducing gossip, like workplace drama stuff. I'm always like, there's no room for that, but I don't write it off completely because I do think there's the village really helpful to survival aspect of the process that should not be thrown out. Yes. I like that because even in the locker room, sometimes we just all need to vent,

just to vent to get the shit out. And then we can move on. And obviously there's many more aggressive and violent things that can happen on movie sets and in lock rooms and whatnot that I'm not talking about that specifically, but like sometimes it's really good to just get a good vent session out. Because that's like really community building and building. And also you could probably use a nicer term for it, but what movements haven't grown out of some sort of gossip?

And maybe like, I'm having a bad experience. I'm also having a bad experience. I'm also having a bad experience. Wait, we're all having it? That means I'm validated that this is a larger thing. It's not me. Yes, yes. We're all experiencing this and we can do something together about it. Like, there's a form of gossip that's at the beginning of it. Maybe we can identify it more as like sharing. And maybe call gossip like the nasty stuff. But I think it's like important to differentiate those different forms of sharing negative experience that like, maybe it's important to share negative

experience that's happened to you directly versus someone you don't know they heard about. We have to just kind of be aware and question ourselves when we're in situations where gossip arises. Like, is this constructive or destructive? Love. Is this something I personally experienced? Well, even gossip is a gendered word. They would never say, guys gossip. When men are telling each other things, it's sharing information. And when women are telling each other things, it's gossip, even that word is gendered. Yes. It's also brave to share what you

went through. Because when the stamp on women who have bad experiences with people in power is that they're crazy or difficult, then you saying, I've had a bad experience with this person in power is a way of saying, I reject the notion that I am crazy and difficult. I'm naming this as what it is. And then other people can come out and be like, maybe I'm not crazy and difficult. Maybe my bad experience was because of the person who gave me the bad experience and not because of me. Absolutely. And also, I think that like the journalists who have dealt with this found that people were most willing to talk when they realized that they were protecting other people by talking. And that you understand that you being silent about your experience

is actually endangering people and like somehow complicit in a scenario. So again, I think that we have to be really careful about discouraging gossip completely because there is a form of it that can be extremely necessary and it could be very silencing. And like you said, there is a gendered... I'm trying to remember where I read this,

but it was saying that gossip was like the most free part of a woman's life because of where she can speak the truth. I read that same article Natalie. I read that same article. What is that? I think it's probably the New York Times or something. I read, yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Because I like, remember, under the again, I'm like, where was this? Mm-hmm. But Natalie does have a specific sentence we can say, which actually makes me, I've used twice now. And gives me goosebumps and makes me feel feelings So she said stop the rhetoric that a woman is crazier difficult if a man says to you that a woman is crazier difficult ask him What bad thing did you do to her? I don't know why that makes me so

Emotional what bad thing did you do to her? Just the the alignment right away. So you are reprising Jane Foster in Thor Love and Thunder, which I'm hoping is my epitaph. You came back to the role in part because you said you're excited to play a character who quote, is as weak as she is strong. I love that so much. Can you tell us what it means to be as weak as you are strong? I feel like we should all be striving for that. I was so excited, of course, to come back and

work with Chris and Tessa again and then to work with Tyga, who's the director. For the first time, he's extraordinary and just like knows how to make everything silly and profound at the same time, which is the best. But I feel like there's this kind of misperception that a feminist character has to be kickass and like, like, she's just strong and can win in the fight. But I don't relate to that unless you can also like fall apart. That's just not my experience. Like I see a woman who's just like can just get everything done and just cool and collected and capable at all times. It's like really awesome and not me at all. So I am not relatable. So yeah, it was really fun to get to explore a human who gets thrown into a superhero role.

And it's like, I'm so afraid of them in it. I guess I'm a ballerina. Exactly. Exactly. It was really fun to do. And especially with the humor that Tiger and Chris and Tessa bring to it is joyful. We're gonna switch gears a little bit right now and ask you some random questions. I want to know Natalie Portman, what is the best advice you've ever received that you still rely upon?

you've ever received that you still rely upon. So I have a cousin, my cousin, Daniella, who is like the closest person to me, and it's so wise. And once when I was in the worst place in my life, she said to me, I don't worry about you. And it was the best thing ever. It made me feel so good. She was like, you're gonna be fine. I'm not worried. And it was like so calming for me. And I've used it back to her now

because when someone knows you really well, it's almost the best thing you can say. And it's actually really stressful when someone's like, I'm here for you Concerned that this is gonna be bad, you know when someone's like I know you and I'm not worried. Yeah, I was like Oh, yeah, you're gonna be fine is is what we all kind of say that that's the standard. Like I'm not worried about you is that there's something different about that that really like hit me in a way that makes me it's like a more certain you're going to be fine. Yes, I know you well enough not to be worried.

I know I know your character. I know who you are. I'm reflecting back to you that you are the kind of person who's going to be okay. Yes, it's like that thing you always say, Glenem, I'm reflecting back to you that you are the kind of person who's gonna be okay. It's like that thing you always say, Glenem, I see your thing and that's big, but I see you and you're bigger. Yeah, like, this is gonna be all right. Yeah, I'm gonna use that with my kids, except I'll be like,

I'm not worried about you, everything's fine, everything's fine. Yeah, it's exactly. Okay, I'm worried about everything. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I'm worried about everything. Yeah. Okay, so when things get wild and you get stressed out or you get sadder, you get, I have a list that I have my healthy coping strategies and my unhealthy coping strategies actually on now.

Guess which list is longer. Yeah, guess which list is that. So I know like my unhealthy ones are booze and binging and you know, the things that took me down and made me abandon myself and made everything shit. And then I have healthier coping strategies, which are usually very simple things that I can do around my house. So do you know off the bat what's an unhealthy coping strategy for you and what's a healthy coping strategy for you? coping strategy for you and what's a healthy coping strategy for you.

Yeah. Right. On a healthy is work like working too much. And like if we're doing one healthy. Oh my God, I'm such a dork. I watch a lot of like through television, when I'm stressed out, I'm such a dork. I watch a lot of like, through television, when I'm stressed out, and I feel like calms me down. So like my husband will come home and he'll be like, it's been a bad day because I'm like watching like, Iron Chef.

What happened? What happened? No. It like calms my leg. Like everything calms down and I stopped Spiraling about whatever I'm spiraling about I feel really relaxed. It's really really dorky and I love it though It's like a show about nourishing yourself right like you're watching people making things that nourish people And it also the stakes are low the stakes are. TV is so scary. I mean, accept iron chef. But most of the time, the worst thing that's gonna happen is this soup's gonna get ruined.

Yes. And they like ramp it up so it feels stressful with like music and effects, but really it's like, nothing. Everyone's gonna eat something, get it at the end of the day. Yes. It's all good.

That's a good one. And if it makes you feel better, Natalie, that would have been on my healthy list. That is her healthy. That is her healthy. I thought you were saying that was your unhealthy. No, that's my healthy. The unhealthy is like the work of hall is in it.

Oh good. I mean, I love working when it's like, because I'm just really stoked about being there, but it's because I'm like, I need to accomplish this and that or whatever that I think it's like an unhownality. Yeah, it makes me feel better. What do you do for fun? Besides I am chef. I mean, it's a lot of I am chef and top chef and master chef and master chef Jr.

Like my husband's like, you're watching master chef and master chef junior Like my husband's like you're watching master chef junior by yourself Children competing But I love that they're so talented. It's so moving. I try Uh, I love being outside. I live doing anything outside, so I go hiking with friends, two of my best friends from my high school. We just, we went on like a big hiking trip in Bryson, Zian, and that was like amazing dreamy, like best time of my life. But who do's? Did you see the who do's? Oh my gosh, it's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. That's probably like my favorite thing to do

is just be with friends in that kind of environment or my kids, that's the best. So yeah, that's my biggest. Can we just have a moment of appreciation for the fact that you just said you're two best friends from high school? So you have managed the course of your wildly

prolific life to keep best friends from high school. That's incredible. I mean, so I mean, I get what I think is more remarkable is that like I met such awesome people that long ago and in that space. I think it's so rare that you can meet anyone at that age that you're still like super interested in whatever 30 years later. But yeah, but also I feel like it's kind of natural to I don't know when you have a lot of people wanting to be around you for reasons that are like impure to like hold on tight as you can to the people you've known the longest to be like stick by me and keep you honest you know tell me tell me what's up yeah make sense well I just I don't know thank you for just always being so present and always bringing your full self to every interaction you're in. Like, whether it's like a phone call, not in just city, or an hour long podcast, or a new movie, the way you are with your friends and your babies, we adore you. Thank you for you.

Feeling is mutual. Thank you so much. It's so, so great. Talk to you, and I hope you're good to hang soon. And Thor is out tomorrow, so we'll go see it. It's so exciting. And you go watch MasterChef with your babies and we'll talk soon. And the rest of you. Watch it. It's so relaxing.

OK. We will. We're going to watch it. Thanks for being here. Big Boss. We love you guys. We love you, Big Boss. You, big bosses.

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