We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Natasha Rothwell: The Third Doyle Sister?!

Episode Date: September 25, 2025

Natasha Rothwell is here today to teach us not only how to survive this time, but how to absolutely stay alive—and hold onto our wild, precious humanity—during this time.  During this magical hour, we discuss: - The paradox of being an introvert who loves people; - How Natasha finds God in theater, laughter, and even pain; - How understanding her neurodivergence set Natasha free; and - How we can resist fascism by leaning into delight, sexuality, creativity, and nature. This conversation will wake you up. Don’t miss it.  About Natasha: Natasha Rothwell is the creator, executive producer, and star of the critically acclaimed Hulu series How to Die Alone, which is currently streaming. She recently earned her second Emmy nomination for her standout performance as Belinda Lindsey in Season 3 of HBO’s The White Lotus, reprising the role that first made her a fan favorite in Season 1. Natasha is also known for work on HBO’s Insecure. In 2020, she founded her production company Big Hattie Productions to create, produce, and develop genre-bending projects that champion marginalized voices in subversive ways. For more conversations about neurodivergence, check out: 82. Hannah Gadsby: How to Communicate Better 220. Why So Many Women Don’t Know They are Autistic with Katherine May 294. What ADHD Feels Like with Jaklin Levine-Pritzker Follow We Can Do Hard Things on: Youtube — @wecandohardthingsshow   Instagram — @wecandohardthings TikTok — @wecandohardthingshow

Hi, Pod Squad, it's me, and I'm sitting here trying to decide how the hell to tell you about what's about to happen in the next hour. I think what I want to say to you is that we finally have one of my favorite actors here, Natasha Rothwell. I love watching her act so much because she wakes me up in a way that every time she comes on the screen, my soul goes, oh hello and okay was it not the most

magical conversation you've ever had like I don't even I don't know how to she's about to in her embodied gorgeous wise illuminating way show you how

not only to survive this time but to absolutely stay alive and thrive during this time just you're welcome here's natasha wathwell amanda tell them for anyone who possibly doesn't know who natasha rothwell is natasha rothwell is the creator executive producer and star of the critically acclaimed hulu series how to die alone which she conceived and came up with by herself and stars in um she that is currently streaming she's also recently earned her second Emmy nomination for her role as Belinda Lindsay, you know the White Lotus. She is also

known for her work on HBO's Insecure. And she has her own production company, Big Hattie Productions, which she uses to create and produce all kinds of beautiful art for the purpose of championing marginalized voices in subversive ways. She is subtly and beautifully and elegantly subversive. Yes. It's like you're being subversive and you're so damn cute about it. And she may be, she may have called herself the third Doyle sister. So just, y'all just here we go.

I just have to tell you, we have so deeply been looking forward to this time with you, because you for me, whether it was insecure or White Lotus or How to Die Alone, it just, you are someone, when you come on screen, I just, my, there's certain writers in my life when I first open a book and I read their words, I kind of wake up. Oh. And I, when you come on screen of anything. I just, I don't know if it's like a serious presence that you have or it's just all talent or if it's a God thing or what, but you just really are constantly radiating something that

wakes people up. Thank you. That means everything. I feel so seen. No, that means everything. And like I said before, like back and forth from the How to Die Loan Writers Room, you guys were like, brought me into every morning and I tell everyone and I have a little, I do a vision board because I'm that girl and I have a we can do hard things little cut out on my vision board.

It's just true. The love is real. It's real. Wow. Okay. Well, that's all I need for this week. And it's a freaking week, Natasha. Yeah. This week has been a year. My God. That's why I'm Happy to be here. This is like, this is a warm hug. Oh, yeah, yeah. So you must know that over the years as I really just tried to figure out what was going on with you on screen, I started to like read a lot about you. So I would watch all your interviews or read your things to try to figure out what you know. It was like one of those all have what she's having situation. So I try to find out what you're having. And what I've done, what we've done for this time together is we've just grabbed a few little things that you've said. And we want to read them to you. And then we want

to, they're just little, little things. Because I feel like you are actually a philosopher. I mean, I know you are, that you are kind of a philosopher and the way you talk about the big questions of life in your art and in interviews. I just want that for the pod squat. I want them to just hear you talk about things. Okay. So the first one, which I have memorized, I don't even have to look at my notes, is something you said in interview a long time ago when I knew that we were soulmates. And you said the thing that confused you the most was to hear Ariel from the little mermaid say, I want to be where the people are. And you said, I do not want to be where the people are? There's nothing I want less. I do not want to be where the people. I want to be

where the people aren't. I want to be in the underground bunker. I want to be away far up in a tree. Yeah. Yes. Where do you, if you had to finish that line, I want to be where the are. I want to be where the laughter is. I want to be where the nervous system regulation is. I want to be where the rest is. I want to be where the cortisol is zero. That's where I want to be. So America.

That's good. America. Tick, tick, tick. Yes. Yeah, I was thinking I want to be with a couch. are I want to be pajamas the edibles like yes yes yes yes yes so so do you for the pod squad are you an introvert is describe how you find peace and joy and connection if it's not in other people I the thing is is I do but I understand at my big age that there is a cost for engagement and I have to

pay it. I don't know how to half-ass, like connection or even conversation. So if I'm out at an event and there's a line of, you know, complete strangers, I will be with them and talk to them and give of myself in that moment. I don't know how to reserve that energy. So I just know that after those exchanges, which light me up and give me purpose, I feel incredibly depleted. And I love to recharge solo with my dogs, just being with myself. And I do, you know, engage in social media, but that's a way where I can control the output and input of that energy and more so just turn off and be entertained. But I've just learned that of myself. And I think for a long time, I would get frustrated that I couldn't just, you know, bounce back so quickly or I would bounce back quickly at a cost.

You know, it's just like insomnia or whatever else. But yeah, I definitely am an introvert in that sense. When I'm out, I'm out. But when I'm in, I need to be in in order to be out again. Are there certain kinds of people? This is what my daughter and I were talking about the other night. Is there a certain type of person that you can be around that is recharging to you? Absolutely.

And are there certain types of people that you know are. are not, are going to drain you faster. And usually those people in my life, like I can put them in those buckets of just like, can I be around this person? And sometimes it's not even that they are additive to my energy. They just are, it's neutralized. Like there's no expenditure. So I can just recharge myself and know that there's no kind of social, familial, fraternal

obligation to like ask how someone's day. Like something as small is just like, hey, how are you? Sometimes I just don't care. Sometimes I'm like, I don't care if you're okay, right? I just can't ask you that question. So it's definitely helpful for me to know who in my life and how much energy they cost. And so there's some friends, some family that are expensive. And so I have to save up for them.

And then there's some friends that do pour into me. but I do think just because I'm so wired to be anxious and stressful and care about other people so much that even the ones that are attempting to pour into me, I'm like, oh, my God, you must be exhausted. Do you need something to drink? How about I see, you know, like, it is compulsive. Like, I don't know how to not reciprocate in the moment

and just receive that. So, yeah, did I mention I'm single? I wonder, hmm. There's something there. Ooh, that's interesting. Because as you were talking, I was thinking, first of all, would people be surprised who, when they're around you? Like if you're at a party, would they leave and be like, Natasha is an extrovert?

Like, is it, is it, are you one of those that presents? Because that's how I am. I, I, everyone would think I was an extrovert, but I'm like, debiless. habilitated after it and then I have to recover. So is that true of you? Yeah. I feel like some people wouldn't know, but I do think as I've gotten older and more accustomed to advocating for my needs, I will sometimes announce like, you know, my battery is running low. I'm going to head out or like whatever. But like in the moment, I enjoy like I enjoy people. I enjoy like hosting and like making sure everyone's good and taking care of people and and laughing and having a good time.

But I feel like there was definitely years, even decades of my life where people just like, that extrovert Natasha is just a hoot. And I'd be at home rocking in the shower, fully clothed. Like, what did I give away? Yeah. Yeah. My idea of myself is that I love taking care of people. needs and being around people. Like my best imagining of myself is surrounded by people. They're all

over my house. They're at my table and they're my couch. But like everyone's on when I try it, I just hate it and want everyone to leave right away. I'm just, I go in thinking Florence Nightingale and then I get there and I'm like Kathy Bates in Misery. I'm like one of us will die in order for this to end well. Because I do think like the it is like whatever. the saying is the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak like my body is just like I just can't and I um have really really been trying to honor that limit like when I come up against that boundary and not push push through it you know like there's this idea of martyrdom that I grew up with just because my you know grew up in the church and so it's just like if it hurts me must be great

you know and it's not ever so yeah I'm getting used to to backing myself when I bump up against the end of the battery. Do you believe that? Because we were raised Catholic and by a football coach. So it was like Jesus on the cross and then additionally, like, keep your head down and hustle and no pain, no gain, no guts, no glory, all of the things. So double whammy football and Catholic. Hail Mary's everywhere.

Hell marries all the point. do you believe that suffering is necessary like is that do you think that's all bullshit and if not how do you know what's the right kind of heart and what's the wrong kind of hard that's an incredible question i don't think self-imposed suffering is necessary i think that suffering is built into life as we know it and so i think understanding your own suffering, I think, is a catalyst for empathy because you can recognize it in other people. But I think so much of the ideology of the church that I grew up in, and it's, you know, it wasn't football on the other side, but it was black church. And it's just like,

you think you had it hard kind of like idea. Which is like, no, I guess I must go live harder lives. You know, like, again. But yeah, I think that there was this idea of this self-saccharacterial being so noble and worthy. And I think I saw it through several generations of matriarchs in my family, especially. And I think I'm so grateful that my siblings' generation, like, we put a stop to that sort of cyclical self-sflagellation of just like, you know, that isn't. what makes us, I think, worthy. And I think sort of the insidious subtext of that kind of martyrdom is I have to earn

whatever grace or rest that I need in this moment. I have to sort of log the hours of self-sacrifice and then I can earn rest. And I thought that for the longest time, you know? even still I super struggle with days off because I'm like I need to be productive and it's taken a while for me to internalize that rest is productive and that you know it's not something to be earned it's it's a grace that we need to give to ourselves yeah and it's the point like I don't like when we talk about rest as yeah it's the thing we do so that we can get back to work you know it's like no I think we just work a little bit

so we can get back to rest. Yes, yes. That is truly the dream. Truly the dream. I was talking to someone the other day and they're like, you know, what are your goals for the next five years? And I was like, a vacation, you know, like, and I heard myself say it. And I was like, that's not right.

You know, like I shouldn't be putting rest or a break or a pause and kicking that can down the line. It's something that I could have today. And it's just having, yeah, the current. courage to do it because I do think it's so internalized. It's like muscle memory that like martyrdom and that kind of like work ethic of being like such a workhorse. But I'm good. I mean 20 plus years of therapy. I'm, I'm clawing my way out of that. Yeah. It's beautiful too because it is muscle memory because even the like vacation. It's like, okay, that is a defined space of time in which we have all agreed you are authorized to enjoy yourself. And so we understand that. But I think it's really hard even when moments of ease are theoretically available not to feel discomfort in them because of the talk track that's like, oh boy, it's been five minutes and what are you doing? You should be doing this. Like, have you been able to rework that muscle memory so you can actually experience the ease instead of like having that internal struggle all the time?

Yeah, I think for me, the struggle will always be there, right? And for me, therapy is just being able to recognize my thoughts more quickly over time. And I've gotten really good at recognizing when that tape starts and is telling me that, like, you, if you sit and take this rest or if you just, you know, turn on the TV and just, like, go and let it go, like, you're not worthy. Because it's deeply tied to worthiness, I think, especially for those that have, you know, gone through the church of just, like, having that sacrifice. And so I'll hear that tape start and then I challenge those thoughts because I think, you know, feelings aren't fact. And for a long time, I confuse that. And so, like, if I was feeling like I wasn't worthy or, like, didn't deserve this time off, that was the fact and that was the truth. And I had to sort of pay sweat equity in order to earn rest.

And so I'm better at challenging that muscle memory and those thoughts when they play. And it gets quieter, right? like the tape isn't loud. You know, it was super loud when I was younger and it's still playing, but it's a little softer and I can drown it out with, you know, Beyonce. So like, there are ways that'll do it, right? There's worthiness there. So, yeah.

It's weird. It's like a great trick of capitalism to take these like things that are birthrights. Like there's only a few birthrights. Like we should be able to rest. We should be able to eat. Yeah. We should be. And to take them away and then try.

trick us into thinking, I mean, it sounds like a version of diet culture the way we're talking about rest. Like you have to earn your food. It's the commodification of like wellness and rest. And like the insidious part is the same system is making us sick. Do you know what I mean? So it's just like the arsonist firefighter of just like, let me make your, you spin out about how you're not enough. Then here are things that you can do to make yourself enough, but just kidding it'll never be enough and then you're back on the on the wheel it's exhausting what kind of the same with sex too like you have to earn your sex you have to earn rights no but like when you're talking about your birth rates of your own ease and rest and food and sexuality and then we come and get all

these messages are like okay well here's the following 400 rules in which the sex will be okay which screws up the sex for the rest of your life yeah crazy and I think it's It's just like the, there's a benefactor at the end of this. I think in the same way we think about capitalism and other ways that it expresses itself, like, just follow the money. You know what I mean? It's just like there's so many people profiting off of our dis-ease. And I think that for me, it's been this slow, deliberate pause I've been trying to insert in my, not just thinking when, you know, the tape starting starts to play, but just even checking. in on, is this actually the medicine I need right now, or is it actually poisoning me?

You know, like, and it's, yeah, it's wildly nuanced, but I think that slowing down in all of the ways is one way to sort of catch those moments where you're getting caught up in that pull of capitalism to determine if you're hot enough, if you're sexy enough, if you're, you know, smart enough, all of the enoughness, yeah. Yep. Do you think, I want to know what kind of rest you have found that is actually restorative to you because I think one of the trickiest things, and I can only, I'm speaking from my experience right now, is that what we've been trained to do now is that when we're feeling depleted or we can't do it anymore or whatever, we go on our phone. And for me, I was just thinking

about last night, like I was in a pretty okay mood because I had been through the day of in America, which I'd already done all the highs and lows and I was trying to do my breathing and I was in the bathtub taking my minute and then I started scrolling. Now, it's not just the doom scrolling. For me, it's the, I can feel okay about myself. I can feel like I did enough. I'm okay. Gosh, darn it, people like me and I have done my best.

But then I get on the phone and Natasha, immediately I feel like, oh my God, I didn't I'm not doing enough. Those people are getting all the things. I'm not relevant. Like all the like immediately zero to 60. So it's like the thing that we're using to restore ourselves is actually what you described as as more poison. That is what is actually helpful to you?

It's different. It's different all the time. But there's some things that are consistent. And they're not revolutionary. cross-wording. I love it. I do the New York Times crossword every day. It's so nerdy.

Every answer that I get right is a little dopamine hit. I can hyper fixate on it. I do get on my phone. And what I feel like whatever alien is running, TikTok, like, it's curated to like cookie decorating. Like I'm watching like all. of those videos. I'm watching like, you know, Korean campers put up tents that are like, like, very bespoke. And like, it is just like so random and strange, but it's just like I can get into like someone watching glass bottles fall down the stairs. And I'm like, yeah. And so part of

it is giving myself permission to use social media to pacify me, but not just incite me, which it does. And so I've tried to, like, for instance, on my TikTok, I don't follow, I follow three things. I follow my nephew. I follow Reese Tisa and I follow my show, how to die alone. But I don't follow people. So my curation is really based on what I'm stopping to view. And it's very, like, Legos, love it. So that's one way. I also, I enjoy being in water, bath. I like just like, And you know what? I'm just going to say it, edibles. And here's why.

I was not acquainted with the medicinal effects of THC until I came to California where it's just like, you know, everywhere. And as someone who is neurodivergent, in my mind, the speed with which it can go, it, like, would put sonic to shame. the to take an edible doesn't reduce me to like you know being incoherent it allows me just to have a little bit of quiet so to have that and sit and do a crossword puzzle delightful I bought some Lego sets so I've been doing that um inspired by TikTok so there is maybe a capitalistic bit to that rest but um yeah sponsored this interview sponsored by Legos. But yeah. Natasha, did you say you don't follow people? I think you may have, you said that very briefly, but I think you may have solved. Only on TikTok. Social media.

Okay. On TikTok, it's just those three. My nephew texted me. He's like, oh, Tasha, could you follow me? And I was like, I got you. I was like, I got you, boo-boo. So, and I also have, like, a social media manager that curates my post. I don't even post.

Like, anything that's posted is her. I just turn it on, like, TV. and I'm like, I wonder what cookies are in season. Are the Halloween cookies up? Let's watch some ghost cookies be made. Yeah. Okay, so now I'm trying to wonder if this is part of the sunshine that comes out of you. Do you not read anything about you?

Like, if your social media person is posting about you, do you not read the comments? No. No. I don't read, like, the Instagram will alert me if a friend has commented. And so I can engage and they're usually like, you know, saying something wonderful, but when it comes to sort of like, I am not in in the comments like that, no. I just like, I also, I think for me, I know I'm already predisposed to think negatively about myself. So I'm just like, I don't need no gas on the fire. So like for

me, I'm hunting for, I'm like, who liked it? You know, like, I'm like looking for the positivity and more often than not, it's there, you know. And now it's time to thank the companies who allow you to listen to We Can Do Hard Things for free. As we shared in episode 306, The Truth of OCD, we have a very special place in our hearts for folks in the OCD community and those who love them. Obsessive-compulsive disorder is about intrusive, unwanted thoughts that won't stop, doubts about relationships, worries about your health, or fears you'll hurt someone. OCD affects one in 50 people in the U.S., and yet it is so stigmatized and misunderstood that it takes an average of 10 to 15 years to be diagnosed, which is tragic because OCD is actually highly treatable with the right kind of help. The key is finding specialized therapy.

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which also is an offshoot of that neurodivergence. And so I would be able to pick up quickly and sense changes and respond and, you know, react. And what brought me to it actually was TikTok. I was scrolling and there was a lot of people, you know, being late, diagnosed ADHD. And mind you, at this point, I was already diagnosed and medicated for anxiety and depression, which come to find out a lot of people with ADHD have that. And so there was a lot of clues. But I leaned in when I was seeing so much of my experience being shown on TikTok. And so last summer, I went and saw a neuropsychologist here in California who was

wonderful. And I did, you know, the whole eight-hour battery of tests to sort of figure it out. And she was just like, yeah, you got raging ADHD girl. I was like, really, huh? And I just remember crying because it was this like, it's like it has a name. And with that name comes a community. And with that name comes understanding. And I've always been very just kind of insatiably curious about myself because I was always trying to figure out why I was different. And so this kind of discovery of ADHD, and I was not on the autism spectrum or official autism diagnosis, but I do have a lot of autistic traits, which she was just like a lot of the overlap between ADHD and autism.

That's sort of where you're living. And so being able to know that about myself, I went from. being ashamed of my inability to run the same race as everyone else to being an advocate for my needs. As I mentioned earlier, like it was one of those things where something as small as my auditory processing as a part of ADHD, I can miss a lot of things because I'm thinking about a lot of things. And so if I'm on set and a director is giving me verbal instructions, in the past, I would just, like, have anxiety and hope I got it. And now I'm like, you know, now I'm just like, can I, can I see the note? Like, can it, because I, my visual sort of, you know, processing,

it'll stick faster. Or can you repeat that? Or feel free to stop me if I got it wrong and not have shame when that happens. And so, it's like little tiny things like that where I was just like, I'm slowly unmasking all the ways I have been masking my whole life. So it's been, it's been revolutionary. Was there grief and knowing for your past self that didn't know? Yeah, I cried a lot last summer about it, like, truly. Because I was always in, I did really well academically. I was in all the AP classes, advanced classes, and gifted classes.

And I busted my ass. and I remember just the effort that it took for me to keep pace because I knew I was smart but it was just like it's taking me a lot to meet the demands of these classes and the rigor and had I had the diagnosis then I would have had more time for tests I would have had accommodations and had a lot more grace with myself. And I think that, yeah, it definitely had a grieving process of forgiving myself for not, you guys are trying to make me cry, forgiving myself for not knowing, you know, as much as there was no way I could have or perhaps there was but I just didn't and so there's just um it's been it's been

healing in that way of just like saying it's okay you did the best you could you know is there any other side of it besides forgiveness that feels like like you forgive yourself is there any side that's like also wow like I did all that without even with a different set of wiring or as you said is there any like holy shit way to go kid yeah absolutely i it feels very much like that was me running with a parachute holy shit like yeah that was um also understanding that it is a superpower to think like i do and one of the craziest parts of the process that was really illuminating it wasn't even the diagnosis One of the tests, it talks about processing speed.

And it takes, you get like three weird symbols on one side. And then you have a row of other weird symbols. And you're timed and you have to identify if those three symbols are in that cluster of weird symbols. And I do that portion of the test during this eight hour day. And after I finished that one, the neuropsych was just like, were you always this fast? And, of course, my immediate thought just from Muslim, I was like, oh, my God, did I do it wrong? Like what? Like, oh, my God.

It was like fast and wrong. Like what? And she goes, Natasha, I've done this for 20 years. And I've only graded this test up to page four. And she was like, you're up to page 10. And I was like, so what does that mean? Like, I thought something. I literally was just like, so what do I have?

Like, what is that? What do I have? You haven't changed it. She's just like, no, you're just, she's like, your brain just works incredibly fast. And so a lot of the stuff you miss is because you just have to remind yourself to slow down a little bit. So it's a superpower. So it's like one of those things where it was just like, I'm very aware that it is a privilege to be able to, you know, get help and, you know, go to a neuropsych. But there's so many free resources available for people who are inquisitive about the way their mind works or have a sense that, you know, there's something special about them.

And I think, you know, hopefully we can post that when this, when this airs. Absolutely. Yeah. So people can get started on that journey. Humor me by, I must hear Natasha Rothwell talk about God. Oh, my word. And I'm going to start in any way you feel like it. I always feel like it's just almost like a, for me it changes every single day, how I think and talk about God.

But you said theater is. a playground where I could do or be or explore all the things that weren't permitted in church. What? What? It's such a big question. And like you, I am discovering so many ways and so many different ways. ways how God is expressed in my everyday life. I grew up in the church and, you know, I use black church as an adjective.

Like, it's kind of, you know, it's black church. And there's a strong sense of right and wrong and permissibility. And there's a lot of denial of self in that. conforming and um i felt for me when i found theater it was being able to have quote unquote permission to see what i actually thought and through the lens of a character which for me was my sort of work around on being able to like cuss and like you know well i'm doing a play and i can do that and I can say shit because it's not me you know like very very very very rudimentary thinking but I loved theater for that reason it was a way to escape it was a way to protect myself

onto a protagonist is why I love film and I think it was what I was meant to be doing with my life like I do to speak of spirituality I do think I have been called in this life to be a storyteller and to uplift storytellers and to center marginalized voices I feel that calling very strongly. And I think for me, my relationship to God has changed over time. You know, I think when I was super young in my teens, I was really desperately trying to protect and hold on to the version of God that my parents was, you know, they believed in and held on to.

And I just remember having this, you know, really interesting, kind of radicalized moment in college. We had done Angels in America, and I'd gone home and I'm, and my father and I, like, we, we don't argue, but we discuss. Like, we have very intense discussions. And I just went in on, you know, the, and I, I want, I, I don't think all Christians are this way, but many, um, have very, um, have very, harmful, dangerous views on sexuality that I was just, I had been radicalized by Angels in America and I just remember having this very deep conversation with my dad and that was kind of like, the God I believe in wants to love and protect

and support and honor the LGBTQIA community. That's the God I'm choosing to believe in. So I was like, okay, there's this separation of ideology that made me really curious about, well, if I'm going to find God for myself and understand God for myself, I'm not going to renovate the house. I'm going from ground up. You know, I want to really know and believe what I think and not just regurgitate what I've been taught my whole life. and it has been a beautiful, wonderful exploration of that. I still consider myself, you know, a woman of faith. But my God is so big and so loving and so inclusive.

And that is, I think, what devastates me about the God. of the right, let's just call it out, you know what I mean, where it is this weaponized anachronistic version of a white man that we're all, um, like being subjugated to, you know, and so, but that's not the God I know. So it's so crazy. to be living in this time where people who are purporting to believe in the beauty of what love is

and I do believe God is love and yet they behave with such malice and such vitriol and create so much harm it's just the like my it's hard to reconcile that and

And, but I remain steadfast. I think that for me, yeah, it's just that that's, that's the God I believe in. Yeah. I just thought of the title of this is for sure, but I remain steadfast. Remain steadfast. I freaking love that. Yeah. That's beautiful.

When do you feel closest to God? I feel closest to God, often when I'm improvising, if I'm being honest, like that is a state of flow where I just feel super connected into something greater when I sing. I wouldn't call myself a singer, but I love to sing. I love to karaoke. But like even in the car, like there's something very visceral. just hearing my sound and my chest vibrate that, like, feels, I feel like I'm tapped into something bigger, even if it is Shaka Khan. You know what I'm saying? So, like, it's still, especially

especially if it's Shaka. But yeah, I also think that I've been flirted, I've flirted with meditation over the years. And I remember doing, I did this silent retreat. I'm going to do it Again, it's this Buddhist silent retreat. No tech. It's very scary. It's wild. But I think in nature, when I look at the ocean, when I'm, you know, with trees, when I'm, like a good laugh, God is there. You know what I mean?

Like the kind where it's just like the mouths are open and you hear no noise because you're just laughing so hard. I'm like, yeah, that to me, yeah, I feel God everywhere in those moments. Yeah, they don't have to be. I think I grew up and there was this sort of, you know, there was the protocol. You only, God's in church. And it was just like, it's so weird. I'm like, no, that motherfucker is not just in church. He everywhere.

It's going back to the beginning of the conversation, it's another trick like capitalism. It's like this thing that's your birthright, we are packaging up, taking away from you and then selling back to you. It's a little bit like the mafia. It really is. We don't even know we have a problem. We think we're fine and in love on the earth. Someone knocks on our door and says, actually, there's a hell. You're going to help.

But here's the thing. Get ready for this. Come to my place and I will protect you. It's very wild. It's wild. And I think the moment that, you know, I found God for myself, the immediacy of that relationship compared to what it was before feels even more. even more potent because it's like, oh, I don't have to like put on my church stockings

and my, you know, little shoes, my Mary Jane's that hurt my feet and like go into church and there, you know, there's God. It's like, no. When I was like, I had a panic attack at the Glad Awards and then God was there. Do you know what I mean? Like the immediacy of that of just like, oh yeah, if I have a moment of anxiety or if I have, you know, someone dear to me is in pain or trouble if I need to call on that or like some in that relationship and really feel like I am trusting and believing in something bigger than myself, that relationship is so internal and it's so present and it's so real. And it's just a void of all of the the ceremony of religion.

And I think that's the thing. Like I think religion and the performative aspects around a very sweet and beautiful relationship is sort of what I'm glad to have, you know, shed. What is it about beautiful? Creativity, because when you're talking about when you're doing improv, you are connecting with a creativity that taps into something bigger, which I just heard you say when you're talking about being outside in nature or being, like, What is the part of being creative that has a through line through nature and God and laughing and that allows you to tap?

I think there's, it's kind of a, it is communing with something bigger than me and listening that happens in improv. You're listening to those instincts and to, you know, very famously, you know, UCB in New York, their tagline is don't think, you know. And obviously the idea there is to take yourself out of, you know, don't insert yourself in with the communication between something bigger and what's happening in the moment and just consider yourself the conduit and trusting that. And I think that what that communication is, that's not for me to decide. You know, I just need to be an open and a willing vessel. And I've been lucky enough to use my instrument for comedy. And, you know, there's a scripture that says, you know, laughter does the heart good like a medicine, you know. And I do think there's a medicinal quality to laughter, especially, you know, I just, you know,

I gesture limply to the world, like, especially given all of the craziness that is going on, it's cathartic to laugh. It's a communal thing. And so I love that. And I love, you know, using it, you know, dramatically and making people cry and feel things and see themselves and have that recognition. I feel like all of that is holy, right? So there's this like, I think it's just like it's not one specific um thing i think it's being open and listening and allowing yourself to be used and yeah that is that is that is that is my church do you know what i mean like that's what makes sense to me as as someone of a faith and yeah it's it's it's it's why i've been put here so

I'm semi-obsessed with Jesus, not like more guns, less gays, Jesus, but like Palestinian activists. That's right. That's right. This is, right. Actually, I just have to tell you guys this. I just thought of this one second ago. So I was in a congressman's office a couple weeks ago just with a bunch of Palestinian activists

actually begging him to sign block the books. bombs, right? His name's David Min. I was going to say, are we not going to name it? Right, right, right, right. I'm not going to name him. Like, we got a name. And one of the, my friends, Mohammed, showed David Min pictures. He has, he's a doctor. He's gone back and forth. So he was showing the congressman pictures of the babies that he had been trying to heal. And the bombs are bombs that had blown up these baby's bodies and he was showing the pictures. And the congressman kind of looked and then he said, you know, I have gone to my

Episcopalian priest to talk to him about what I should do about this. And then he went on to say he needed to pick his battles and whatever. But I kept thinking there, like Jesus was an activist. Yes. Who was crucified for asking for a more beautiful and true world from the land of of Palestine. You are ignoring the seven Jesuses around you. Yeah. We are Christian nationalists are constantly crucifying Palestinian activists who are begging for a true or more beautiful world in the name of a Palestinian activist who was crucified for begging for a true and more

beautiful world. The irony, it's unbelievable how, how. individuals who purport to be followers of Jesus and his teachings and the teaching of the church to not recognize in this moment with Palestine the opportunity to show up and walk the walk and to do the work that he set out to do. And it boggles my mind that there are people in these positions to actually help and affect change and they're so afraid of actually moving in a way that would lose them boats or lose them money and like there are all these things and they're putting that above what they're saying is the most important thing it's so it's just truly fucked and it is Yeah, I wish I could get to a place where it's not a constant shock in all campaign every time I hear it.

But every time I'm just like, like, how can you even sit in a service on Sunday and not recognize the opportunity for you to actually make the world a better place? it's it's yeah i think that's what i mean when i say like for me god is a relationship not the religion because i do think there's such yeah there's such theater in let me go talk to my my priest let me go do that and like there's just miss me with that miss me like be so fucking for real do something actually i was like do something did you ask the priest, what would Jesus do? Why don't you just ask Jesus? Because there's seven of them at your table right now. Jesus is here. He's right here. Right here. News at 11. Do something. Sign the bill.

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Oh, can you hear me? She got so excited about her acting here. I got excited that she dropped your things. I thought God silenced me, which happens sometimes. I just want to say how much I love that. this conversation. Like, this is, very rarely do I get to talk about my faith. And oftentimes because that can be misconstrued as, like you said, guns, God, gays, kind of Christian. But like, you're so fucking familiar right now. I love it. This is my, I love this. So what's

your story? Sorry. Well, just hear me out. So the whole story is like spirit, collective consciousness being incarnated into a body. Like, ghost like, shloop, here. here in a body, in a different body. And that's what actors do. Like when you're talking about improv as spirituality, I can't help but make the connection to you are ghosting, you are incarnating a different body and bringing your spirit to it. And doesn't, isn't that the practice of empathy? And then everybody in the audience is doing a lesser version of vacating their own self and now living in your shoes. And so it's kind of a collective consciousness spreading of empathy for all of us,

which is very God to Jesus. Yes, that's church. That's church. That's the church I want to be a part of. You know what I mean? Like there is something so powerful in theater. And I've done shows. where I don't even remember the like I'm like everyone's like you did great I was like I don't

remember like because you're so tapped into like you said that collective consciousness that collective spirit and in your transformation you're giving permission to the audience to transform and you're all having this collective religious experience do you know what I mean and it's like sure let's call it wicked but like we all went somewhere do you know what I mean yes we all I feel that way when I see like an amazing, like, band play and they're, you know, when they jam and I'm out of my body and they're out of their body, there's something so holy and spiritual about that exchange. And like you said, it is that empathy of that transactional empathy where I'm giving into the story that I've been given. I'm taking that on and I'm letting go of myself and audiences like you said, they let go of themselves and we can just all. be in the space where higher consciousness is communicating to all of us something valuable.

And I think that's why I don't care how long I do this. I will always do live theater. Like there's something so like television and film have an amazing way to do that. But it's just you can't replicate that exact kind of church feeling when you're, yeah, a good show and good music, all of that. It's transformative. Is it the presence? Is it the, is it the, because before you were talking about, like, the urgency of the relationship and the, the immediacy and the presence.

And there is something that is in a world where, like, we look out at the world and we see things. And then 90% of the world is telling us we don't see those things, that that's, the thing that we see happening is not happening. And then you get in a space where you're having an undeniable, immediate present experience that is so it's life affirming because you're like there's one thing happening here yeah it is powerful to experience emotion collectively collective grieving collective laughter collective, you know, sorrow.

And it's like you said, it's like everyone has agreed to the rules. You know, the phones are off. We're all watching the same thing. It may touch us in many different ways, but we're not denying that this happened. And the thing, too, that's special about live theater is that that exact play and the way it was communicated that night will never have. happen again. And that to me is like, how often in life now do we have those unique, undeniable moments where it's just like, if you weren't there, you weren't there. And I think

that is power. Like that is, that is, I don't know, pass the offering plate. That's my church. They should pass offering plates in the theater. Oh, they would make so much. This is a good idea. idea i think i've stumbled upon something you always do wow i freaking love that that's why it's like it's not extra it's not i'm just begging the world to not abandon the arts right now because it can feel like well we have to keep putting out fires and so that's extra and it's not extra it's like it's the antidote the only thing that's real and collective and it's the only place we're not living in an algorithm. That's right.

It is, it is pure in that respect. And I think that, yeah, it, you know, everything going away with the PBS funding and arts in general, I think it's, it's what helps me, because there can be this idea, right? And especially for what I do that, like, how is this helping, right? We've all had those sort of existential crises where it's just like, how, like, how, like, this is, like I'm working on the script and I was just like this semicolon doesn't matter like what's going on. But then it's like it's being reminded like, oh no, this is a part of the synthesizing art and getting it out there to help people in the same way that we're talking about. And so there is such a need for it now more than ever.

You know, we see this with, you know, the artistry and the live theater of Colbert and Kimmel. like the administration understands the power that happens when you create these moments of collective you know catharsis and spirituality like that's potent and they recognize that so yeah it's it's a scary time but I think that for me it's just a signal to double down for sure it is and it's a good clue like if you're somebody who can't figure out what's important about life or being human you you must just look at what fascists go after yeah if you want to know what's important right watch what they go after and double down on that because they know education what brings like yeah history yeah empathy accounts truthful accounts of things that happened is that is the

first thing they go off that's why they're stripping they want to the all the museums that's why they're critical race theory. That's what it's because if what you're saying is the like, it's those things that you're talking about, it's expressing yourself. It's like the power is the expression of yourself in whatever form it is. And if folks can't express themselves creatively, comedically, historically, historically, scholarly, like sexually, then sexually, then the only expressions that are occurring are the expressions of authority, of sanctioned authority. And so it's anything that is self-expressive is so

spiritual and is also so dangerous. They can't commodify individuality. If we're all the same, if we're all limited in the same way, then they can figure out how to make money off of our compliance. And if we remain individualistic, if we remain autonomous, that's dangerous to them because it's reminding them that they do not have the power we do. So it's very, I mean, it's a very good plan. It's a very good plan. They've tried it before, you know? And so I think I think that's why, for me, I will always use my platform to draw attention to exactly this and to continue to use the, I mean, it is the kabuki theater of the Hollywood entertainment industry. To me, the only way I can make sense of it is like every carpet I'm on, I'm talking about those causes and

things that matter to me. I'm going to continue to, you know, use my megaphone to remind us that we are autonomous, that we have a choice, that we don't, we're not complying in advance. We are going to fight for our right to exist and to be happy. And it is going to be a fight. But I'm I'm tired. I'm ready. That's another title. I ain't tired. What does matter to you today? I know I have studied you over the years well enough to know that there's a lot of things that matter to you.

So that's why I'm asking just now, what's most on your heart and mind in this moment? My heart is heavy. there's so much I think I mean we spoke about Palestine and the horrors being perpetrated there that is kind of constantly on my mind I think also

what has happened to Jimmy Kimmel is very scary and as someone in the creative and performing arts as someone who will always speak truth to power this really felt like

the canary in the cold mine is the bitch dead you know what I mean like that's how it felt and I think in times like these it's it can be really devastating because it's just like, well, what can't, I can't, I can't go higher and back. Like, what can I do? Um, and I kind of always circle, you know, three things. It's, you know,

do what you can, if you can, when you can. And if that's tweeting in opposition, if that's boycotting, if that's sending a letter of love to him and his family of support. Um, if it's speaking out, you know, at the dinner table and there's always something to be done. And so I think in these times I try to remind myself of what agency I have. But yeah, I think the very obvious, they didn't even try, like it's so, it's so out in the open, you know what I mean? It's like so out in the open of their attack on free speech. it's an unapologetic attack on free speech and so for me it's we have to use that weapon of speech to combat it and yeah I think that would be on my heart I think the connection

between Palestine and then all the way to Jimmy is interesting because had we paid attention to the actual canaries in the coal mine which were the kiddos. who were organizing and the Palestinian activists here who were organizing but everybody was cool with them being rounded up they were the canary

in the coal mine for us. For sure. We didn't pay attention because, and now you go very quickly from that to all the way to a very powerful man on TV.

So for a straight cis white man who is a multi-millionaire on TV to be targeted and hurt look in the rear view there are a lot of bodies that don't look like that that paved the way that could have been opportunities to change the course and so yeah it's it's many many many dead canaries on the on that road for sure but my hope is that we don't suffer anymore you know

like we need to that's the time to act is now yeah it's past time yeah and lastly i just want to say this. We know the trouble. We know the trouble. But circling to art and to what keeps us alive, not as an extra thing we're doing, but as we're dipping into every damn day to remember what makes life worth fighting for. You know that, oh God, you guys, I'm thinking right now of who it is. I'll look it up. But that the man who was such a gay activist when the AIDS crisis was hitting and he said, we bury our friends in the morning. We march in the afternoon. Okay, I'm going to start crying. And we dance at night. That trifecta, we grieve, we work, we dance. We dance. Has to be the way. Has to be the way. All of them. We can't ignore any of them or we will not

have because the dancing is what reminds us that all of this is worth working for and grieving for yeah so to get to the dance what is there any art recently natasha that just surprised you whether it's a book or a show or a poem or anything that felt especially delightful or healing to you first of all i want to say that is that is going i'm getting that shit on a pillow today That is grieve fight dance that is

that's real and I will say in addition to the dance being what we're fighting for to me it's such a giant fuck you

to those that wish to oppress and silence us that you will not take my joy. You will not take my, my joy. And a little joy for me, part of my neurodivergence just to bring it all together, hyperfixation has been a theme in my life. And so it could be a meal that I'll just truly have every single day or a song that I'll just listen to on repeat to the point that Spotify sends in help, you know? They're like, this is, this is too much. And for me, that song, there's this amazing London artist, Olivia Dean, and she has this song, Man I Need, and it's like a boppy kind of like fun song that it is just, it just lights

me up. And I'll have it on repeat. I'll like scream, sing it in the car. I'll have it on all the time. My poor dogs are just like, she's not okay. And I'm like, no, it'll be all right. But yeah, it was just nice to, I've been a fan of hers for a long time. And the song was just kind of like a happy, hopeful kind of like, yeah.

So that's been bringing me a little bit of joy. That's what I needed. Thank you. Just needed something to Google today. What about you? What are you both? Oh, what is your dance right now? What is looking you up?

What is my dance? I mean, my baby girl is coming home for, as like an unexpected visit from her first year of college tonight. Oh, yay! Yes. And so my entire family is going to be trapped with me for a couple days. And I, Abby and I promised each other that we swore to each other that for Saturday and Sunday we would turn off our phones and not react just for two days.

And I'm so excited for that, Natasha. I love that so much. Amanda, do you have any anything? My current lifeline, my current lifeline is Padrig O'Tooam. He is an Irish writer. You can't describe him. He is a poet and a theologian and a memoirist. And he's queer.

And he, he, like, he, I'm obsessed with Ireland and Irish politics and all the things. He brings, like, all of my favorite things into one story where he calls it, um, narrative theology. So he is telling the story that this most recent book is called In the Shelter. It's from this Irish proverb that's in the shelter that's in the shelter of each other. that the people live and it he is telling the story of his faith through growing up as a queer Irish kid during the troubles who wanted to be a priest who and then like telling the whole story of the divisions of Ireland and the British Empire's oppression and colonialism and but all through like this gorgeous prose. And so I have listened to his book

literally three times in a row. As soon as I stop it, I just start it again because it's just feeding me and comforting me in this way that I like really neat. It's like scratching a brain itch of just like all the things that light you up. Yes. Yeah. I love that. And the Irish accent. Before we go. Also. Oh, the Irish accent. I mean, forget it.

Forget it. It's a really good thing he's gay. I'd be like, to Dublin we go. To Dublin we go. The cliffs of more of you. Yeah, exactly. We love it. Natasha, my final question, and then I really will let you go, is will you be our best.

Yes. I've been waiting for this moment for so long. I'm serious. I have been lit up by this conversation. I think it's just, it's why I was such a fan of the show. You guys are so thoughtful and you're so my people. You're so like, you think about the world in the same way I do. And it is just a dream to be on.

You are so lovely, so wonderful. Yeah, I want to be the third Doyle sister. So she's saying she'll hyperfixate our title. That's all we want. I want to be up in there. I want to be up in there. Oh, no, you guys are so everything. Everything.

Thank you, Natasha. Please, if you ever want or need or any, if you just, just. Yeah. And we're so grateful for you existing in the world. Tell Abby to add me to her New York Times puzzle or friend list. I don't know what that is, but I will tell her. It's, yeah, I love it. I love it.

I don't know. Pod Squad, we love you. Go forth and grieve, work. Dance. Dance. See you next time. Bye. Oh my God, I love you so much.

I love you so much. You guys, that was everything I dreamed up times 20. We did all the things. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human. Forever Dog is our production partner, and you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram and at We Can Do Hard Things show on TikTok.