We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - Our Oscars Stories & How to Stay Steady with Life Changes

Episode Date: April 7, 2026

The world is on fire—but we still have each other. This week, Glennon, Abby, and Amanda step away from the overwhelm to talk about what actually holds us: love, family, friendship, and truth. From their Oscars experience to a listener's question about divorce, kids, and staying in love, this episode is about staying soft while doing hard things. - Why losing the Oscar still felt like winning - What kids really need when they sense change at home - The difference between leaving a relationship and giving up on love - How to tell the truth (even when it’s hard) - Why it’s time to get off the shore and into the boat Follow We Can Do Hard Things on:  Instagram — ⁠https://www.instagram.com/wecandohardthings⁠

Well, hello to our favorite people in the world and welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Thank you for having me. I miss you guys. Yeah, me too, me too. And I wanted to just suggest to us today and to our beloved community that we've been going pretty hard on the pod about the world. And I thought today we could bring our high levels down a little bit. We could all circle up and we could remember that while we can do hard things, we also can stay soft while we're doing them.

And we can remember that while the world is a little bit on fire, we also have smaller worlds. We have our friendships. We have our communities. We have our families. And we're going to nurture and pay attention to those too. So today we are going to remove our eyes from the large and very upsetting world. And we're going to narrow down a little bit and remember each other and friends and family by receiving your questions about your beautiful, complicated relationships. And Abby and Amanda and I are going to give you our, hmm, what's the word?

expertise is not the word. Educated answers is not the word. We're going to give you our best guesses. Yes. Okay. So this is less like a meeting with a therapist and more like just sitting on the couch with a friend who loves you while you kind of struggle together. And remember that we have each other and we're all going through the same things. Does that sound good?

Sounds great. Let's get it on. First of all, y'all, we have to start by telling you something funny, which is that the three of us are together right now in our basement where we send these words out to you into the world somehow. And the reason we're all together is because we just went to the Oscars together a couple days ago, which was a wild experience. And we thought we'd just spend a few minutes telling you all about it. okay the reason we went to the Oscars is because if you've been listening to the pod you know that the three of us along with the most beautiful group of people who we call the lesbian Avengers plus the honorary lesbians produced a film about our beautiful friend Andrea Gibson the poet laureate

of Colorado who passed away and is allegedly passed away and is now the poet laureate of heaven and their partner Meg Falley, who I believe is one of the most special people on the planet. The film was made with so much love and so much beauty by director Ryan White and his longtime creative partner Jessica Hargrave. This duo has been making movies together since they were 10 years old. They're besties. Did they go to Homecoming or something? that picture that they sent to the text.

I think so. It was Ryan giving a corsage to Jess who was dressed up like it was a like a 1990s homecoming. I haven't seen that. I'm like, wow, they've really, they've been doing it together for a while. Also, they're both married, Ryan has a husband and so does it suggest. Right, right. But these were early days, it seems.

Maybe high school? Early days, yeah. And another producer is Steph Willen, who I just think is one of the most unique, caring, kind people I've ever met. And then another producer's Tig Notaro, who I could... Who's that? I could just start crying, talking about, because she's just so beloved and special. And then Sarah Borrellis and Brandy Carlyle and Catherine Carlyle and this just whole team of beautiful people. So, anyway, Susan.

Yegley, put her in my pocket and carry her around because she's a little like butterfly of colors. God, she is. She's an angel of the morning she is. And her husband is Kevin Nealing, who I believe is also sort of an honorary lesbian. He's hilarious and precious. He was so funny. So we all go together, you guys. And for most of us, going to any award ceremony is not a typical thing for We had no freaking idea what we were doing. So can you guys each just say a highlight of the night of the whole experience? Okay. So on the night of the Oscars, the Oscars is now completed and we are in the lobby post

Oscar, post having not one. Okay? And all of us are kind of circled up and Tig walks up in Tig fashion. Tig starts going, we didn't do it. We didn't do it. We didn't do it. We didn't do it. We didn't do it.

And it was really sweet because like right after our category was announced that we didn't win, we kept all of us sent like the L text to each other. Like middle schoolers where you put the L on your forehead. Like we lost. Yes. And I just thought that that was exactly correct with this group of people and the way that we've all kind of handled the last year. or two of creating this film, everybody has just been, it has accepted the moment that has come

exactly as it has come. And I think that there is something really special about that because I've never celebrated a loss like that before. Oh, yes, you haven't. Yes, you haven't. You've never been peaceful about losing before in your life. Was this the first time? I don't know if I was peaceful. I would say it was joyful. Yeah. And I think that there's something to be learned from that. And yeah, there was, it was just really, really special to me. How about you guys?

Well, I was just thinking about that moment when we were all dancing and saying, we didn't do it. We are losers. We are losers. And you guys have to remember, if you're listening, we were in the lobby, the huge room of the Oscars, surrounded by all the fancy people, many of whom have. one, they had their Oscar statues, and we're being very serious and fancy. And our group of Lesbian Avengers plus bonus lesbians were dancing around saying, we didn't do it. They didn't call our name. We, not today, Oscars, Sarah Brels kept saying. And I kept looking at the group

thinking, oh, I would rather lose with this group of people than win with any other group of people on earth. One of my favorite moments was our friend, who we adore and love and respect so much is Jimmy Kimmel was announcing our category. Okay. So that was kind of exciting. He could have hooked some sisters up. Right, right, right.

So he went on stage, said his things, took three jabs at Trump while he was doing it. It's like Jimmy can get so many jabs at Trump into one sentence that it's an art. And then he announced this documentary about Putin that won and beat us. And Kevin Neeland turned to us and said, Fuck Jimmy Kimmel. That was one of my favorite moments. I think just I have two more. Just being with you two, I mean, watching Amanda and Sarah Borellis walk the red carpet together

as if they'd been a couple for 20 years. loving each other so much was one of my highlights. One of my highlights is post Oscars when TIG posted this hilarious video about how it's a shame we didn't win because we made the movie strictly to win an Oscar. We did not win it to honor our dear friend Andrea Gibson. We did not win it to have this creative family and have this experience with our friends. We made it to win an Oscar. and that is why this has been really sad. And then Megan Fally commented beneath TIG's post and said,

this is the worst thing that has happened to me all year. I mean, so good. Meg, just the, this group with the dark humor and love and, and then, okay, my final one is seeing Meg. I mean, you guys. Meg walked that room

surrounded by the biggest movie stars in the world. I swear to God, they all just receded into background noise. Like, well, she kind of looked like an Oscar. Yeah, she did. She was golden and shimmery and statuesque and she was ready for that moment. It was like the entire sun was inside her body

shooting out from inside her and light was going everywhere and I kept like kind of choking up and I kept thinking I had a thought of God damn it I wish Andrea could see Meg right now but then I really felt in my body like Andrea is seeing Meg right now and I don't know what that means or maybe I may who knows but just watching Meg illuminate and sort of disappear everyone else in the room was incredible. Did you have any favorites? Honestly, I thought it was hilarious that we kept talking about losing the Oscar. I'm like, I don't think that works like that.

Like, I don't think it's like one person won and everyone else is a loser. I mean, I blame myself for that. I think I brought that energy. No, but I just think it was mostly I am used to things being set up in a way. way that things that should happen and deserving people not getting acknowledgement. And so I just can't believe a film about terminal cancer and queer poets was nominated for an Oscar. I mean, that to me was such a win in terms of just. It's not supposed to happen.

Yeah. I mean, it was not supposed to even be able to be made or be able to be streamed. And so I just kept thinking, wow, so many more people are going to get to see this film and experience Andrea and Meg. And I'm just so happy about that. And that's just such a win for the world. And how cool is it that like, I don't know, I think it was all orchestrated when you have someone that, You love, die, and there's this kind of very, very private grief. And then at some point, people stop talking about it. Or even if you're in the grocery store or at a family event or with

strangers, nobody might even know that you're carrying this like gulf of grief in you. And even if they do know that, they definitely don't know the person and why they were so spectacular. And I just Keep thinking, what a world that the equivalent of grief honeymoon. There's like a public, like ritual where you're like, something big happened to you. And we all expect you to go out and go forth and celebrate it. But hers has been this like months long touring, talking about Andrea, everyone telling her how much Andrea's life meant and how much Andrew's life meant. and how much Andrew transformed their lives just by experiencing it through the movie. And I think that's the opposite of the burden people usually have for grieving someone.

They usually feel like I need to carry it. I need to remind people. I need to. And I just feel like that is so appropriate for Andrea's life. And I love that for Meg that so many more people are experiencing Andrea than ever experienced them in their life. You know? Beautiful. Yeah.

And I also really liked standing next to Sarah Borales. A lot. Is Sarah Borrell is just the best person in the planet? I'm like, I like you so much. God, she's so special. I trust her with my life. A couple surprises that, and if you guys can say any of those, and then we can stop talking about the Oscars.

But I was surprised how unpolitical everyone was. Annoying. I was like, what? Like I showed up with my fuck ice purse and I thought that would be like the most tame thing. I was so, I mean, we wore our, you wore a watermelon pin and I wore pins celebrating the Florence Project and the Palestinian Children's Relief Fund and a fucking great purse that said fuck ice and it was really fantastic. And you wore ice out and Sarah wore ice out. And honestly, I didn't see any. else wearing anything? I don't know. I just was very surprised at this moment in time

how few people were signaling support for hurting people in the country right now with their bodies. Yeah. I know there's a million reasons and a million whatever. I'm just saying I was surprised by it. I mean, the only person Javier Barden got right up and the first words out of his mouth when he was presenting the award were no more wars and free Palestine. And I was like, damn, he went right to it. But he was the only one that other than kind of illusions against the administration and generally like this is wrong, that actually said it real thing. And I was surprised too. Like if you're not going to do substantive activism, at least this is the season of performative of activism, at least perform it a little bit. And it was shocking. I was like, this is a group of

actors. We can perform activism. Like, I didn't think we'd get to the point where we would just be grateful for the performance either. But anyway, I just did feel surprised about that. The other thing I felt surprised a bit and sad about was that we're not like super fancy clothes people. and we did borrow clothes from a fancy stylist who gives you clothes and makes you look good when you walk and take pictures. And half hour before, the stylist came back to pick up the clothes. I walked into my bedroom and my golden doodle hatie had chewed to smithereens the very expensive shoes that I had borrowed from the stylist. That made me very sad inside, and I just wanted to say that was a low for me. You were real time upset about that.

I was real mad at my dog about that. Bad dog good taste. Bad dog good taste, yeah. Did you have any surprises or loads or are you ready to move on from the Academy Awards? I'm just still surprised that we didn't win. Honestly, I really felt like all this political reasons as to why and blah, blah, blah. I mean, all the nominees are incredible. But like, I wanted this so bad for Megan.

I wanted this for Meg Valley. I wanted this for Andrea. But it also felt really good to know that a billion people watched the show that more people will have the urge and the desire to maybe go watch it if they haven't seen come see me in the good light. But yeah, the Oscars, it's just weird. Like award shows are weird. I can't, I can't understand them. I have been to too many of them. Sport ones, obviously, not the Oscars.

But there's like so much weird energy. Yeah. And it's like, look at me. energy, people are looking past you energy. It's also self, you know, conscious energy because you're like, how am I looking? What camera is getting me? Am I? And you're walking through and then you're like, oh, hey, Spikely. And then you're like just having this conversation. So it's a lot. I don't know if I'll ever go back. Well, that's okay because we probably won't be invited. I want to, I want to say that one of my favorite moments of this was when I said to whoever was

talking to me about the Oscars. I don't remember who it was, someone fancy about the invitation. and they said, you're invited to the Oscars. It's this day. And I said to them, okay, but I'm going to go to the Oscars. But I'm telling you that is it. I'm only going to that ceremony. I'm not going to any other events that week. I'm serious boundaries.

And they said, okay, that should be fine. You haven't been invited to any other things. And I thought, that's my life. And lastly, shout out to Peggy, who is Ryan White's mother, who is the cutest human that ever lived and was at the Oscars walking around prouder than anyone I've ever seen and told me that when Ryan was 10 years old, he told her that one day he was going to take her to the Oscars because he was going to be nominated. And there 30 whatever years later is Peggy, the proudest mom in the earth next to Ryan. That was really special.

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today because Jen Hatmaker, obviously. And there was maybe attention. between two things you said, Glennon. One, you said that you were wrong to promise your children that you and Craig would never get divorced because it actually did not serve them or create safety. Two, you promise Abby all the time that you will never get divorced. I am so curious as to whether you can draw a distinction between these two situations or if I'm misunderstanding the nuance. Thanks so much, love all three of you, Marissa.

I'm also very interested in this answer. Are you? Yes. Okay. How are you going to spin this one? Well, Abby's not a child. Thank you. That's what I was thinking.

That's what I was thinking. I think I have an out here, Marissa. I have a- Always go first to the technicalities. Yes. I have a couple ideas about this. My first instinct is always to wiggle my way out of being cornered with a hard question. So first I'm going to wiggle and then talk about it more honestly.

Okay. So my wiggle is this. I do think it was wrong to promise my children that I would never get divorced. Because do you remember, Amanda, when we were talking about one of your kids who is really, you were talking about a decision that you guys were going to make that would maybe require a lot of tumultuous change for the kids? And you were saying, I can't choose the thing that would cause a lot of change because my youngest is really, really adverse to change.

One thing that's really important to her is that things stay the same. Do you remember when you sold your car? Oh, God. Well, no, the car, at least I knew that was going to be a real trauma. This car that we had for 17 years, because that's what you should do with the car. You should have for 17 years until I was about to do. die is in my thrift world. And only eight of which she had been alive for, but I knew that she was going to be traumatized. So we had to talk about it for three weeks. Then we had to literally

go back to the place from which we had purchased the car eight years before she was born because she wanted a proper ceremony, drove to that dealership and then had a long talk about it while we drove to the place where we were dropping it off. And then she could have a little ceremony there. And then we came home. So the one that I didn't anticipate was when I sold a couch on Craigslist. And she came home and the couch was gone. And it was a really, really hard night because I didn't tell her we were going to get rid of a couch. It was a real situation. So yes, that is the backdrop from which I am worried about change. Right. So we have. We have. one who was like that younger, who was very, very against any change, okay, would present

herself as quite traumatized when anything changed that she didn't know about or that, or that she did know about, honestly. And my reaction to that was to say to myself as a mom, okay, this kid struggles with change. So my job is to protect her from change, to do as many things possible as to not make the ground beneath her move because she only feels stable when the ground beneath her stays steady and the same. In retrospect, I think that was the absolute opposite right strategy for that kid. I think that the more uncomfortable with change a kid is, the more it is our responsibility as parents to expose them to change within the safe, comfort of the family in a developmentally appropriate way, like not constantly pulling the rug out,

but introducing change over and over and over again, more so even than with a kid who's okay with change, because the only thing that we know is true about life is that everything changes constantly. So if we have a kid who is resistant to change and we create a fake work, in the home where nothing changes, then the second they go out into the world and life-lifes, they will be completely stunned and everything will seem like a tragedy and they will be completely destabilized without the skills to restabilize themselves that we could have helped them practice in the home, right? So that's a little tidbit for people for whom it's not too late to do that. Okay. So we didn't do that. So ours is.

okay now, but kind of had to teach herself more about what to do when things change outside our home. Yeah, I also just think that that's why exposure to change is really important because we can't teach her about change. She has to learn it. It's like something that she experiences. So we can put her in environments that she's experiencing change over and over again, but she has to be the one that metabolizes it and embodies it and then understands that she's going to be okay over time, no matter what changes in her life. Exactly. But when they're young, there is a way we can show up alongside change. Like, I feel like you're really good at this, Amanda, with the kids. So the way that I think about it is if we are teaching our kids, if you respond to that by saying, okay, we'll never move another

couch, we'll never sell another car, we'll never, blah, blah, blah. I feel like the kids look at parents kind of bodily and energetically. And so what that would teach the kid is, oh, mom agrees that change is scary and bad. She's changing everything. She's making sure it never. happened, so she must be afraid of it too. Yes, kids have to do it themselves, but the point of childhood and family life is to not have to do it by yourself before you go out and have to do it by yourself. Right. So during that window, that beautiful window of time where you're next to them, they can go through the trauma of, oh my God, that thing changed while their body is next to a parent who's signaling to them, this feels scary to you and look at me, it's okay, I'm fine with

you're going to make it through this and I'm next to you. I'm not fixing it for you. I'm not unchanging the thing. I'm just with my body showing up next to you and sending you all energy that your feelings are okay, but so is this thing that's happening. It's okay and you're going to make it through, right? That is to me all that family life and parenting is. It's like practicing hard things in a little container so that when they leave the container,

they can remember the way they got through it next to us when they're not with us. I don't think I should have ever said to the kids, I will never get divorced. I think that I should have said, I don't know how I would have said it exactly about our coupledom, but the idea would have been, I don't know what's going to happen in life. The truth of the matter is, I can't promise you anything that's definitely going to happen. or definitely not going to happen, except that no matter what happens, we are all going to get through it together. Like, that is a harder answer for a kid, but it's much more honest.

And I think would cause less fear because I think kids know that. And I don't even think you have to be as blunt to say, like, I don't know what's going to happen. Like, I think you could be like, oh, gosh, isn't that a scary thought? Because really what they're saying is, I'm scared you're going to get divorced. Yeah. So if you were like, oh, geez, even thinking about that makes me feel so ick because it makes me think, oh, all the changes and that would be so scary and so upsetting, wouldn't it? Like, do you worry about that? Is that a thing? And if it's true that you don't have plans to get divorced, you could be like, that is so scary. And I just, oh, that makes me feel ick. I am not planning to get divorced. And if that happens, wow, that would be sad and upsetting. And we would. talk about it and you would know about it and every we would still be a family and every step of that we would be with you like it's just more honest because honestly most people aren't getting divorced because they're scared just like the kids are yeah so just saying that's right how scary it is is

validating that and you don't have to be like well i don't fucking know it's coin flip for me dog you can just say how you actually feel about it just to add i think one of the things that is true is the reason why they're asking this is because maybe one of their friends came to school and told them that their parents were getting a divorce. And that like put it in their head like, maybe my parents. And so talking about the moment, what made you ask this? Like, what was the impulse for you? What is, where is the fear coming from? And let's talk about that. Because at the end of the day, kids want to know that they are safe. And they believe that the function of the family unit the mother, the father, the two parents or whatever, is keeping them safe, right? And so

getting to the heart of like, what was the moment? Like, what did you, have you heard something from school or whatever to get them to start talking to you about why they're so scared so that you can start approaching some of those conversations, I think, with a little bit more honesty. And also, I do think that there's something to be said, not to lie to them. When kids are very young, like the developmental process is different, right? What you say to a two-year-old, what you say to a four-year-old, what you say to a 15-year-old, it's just different how you say it. But I do think we all have to get a little bit better at asking our kids why they ask that question. Totally. Because often they see it isn't just that something happened in another family that they're worried about. They see things

in your family that you don't see. That's right. So I have had conversations with one of my children that asked me questions that are like, damn, John and I haven't been doing our best in our relationship. And a kid has asked me point blank questions that I didn't know that they had any insight into. And so I think asking and not like jumping in and being like, no, no, no, it's okay because then you're gaslighting them. Like they're living in the same house you are. And if you are feeling something, they are feeling something. And so it's humbling as shit because you think you're doing a really good job,

like masking anything you're going through, but you're not because you share a home. So when that has happened to me, it's been very surprising and a little embarrassing. And then I've just had to be like, well, what are you seeing? What do you think? And then really be honest about like, it is really true that I struggle with that. It's so true. I get so annoyed about that. And I'm trying. And it's not your issue to solve. But like, I'm glad you told me because you're right. You guys, let's just stay there for a minute before we move on. I think that's the most important thing in the world with parenting because so our kid comes to us and says, are you mad? Are you sad? Are you mad at daddy about this? And they're saying that because they're

feeling something in their body. They're sensing something, right? That feels, that is true and that they have intuited, that they have sensed. And often our well-meaning reaction is to, I guess we think we're comforting them by saying, no, no, no, everything's fine. Mommy's not sad. Mommy's not angry. Mommy's not mad at daddy or mommy. And I think that that is the opposite of comfort because what that says to the kid is you sensed wrong. Whatever you just sensed is wrong. What you felt in your body was incorrect and a mistake and you made it up in your head. Or, which you did notice, is so scary and alarming that your mom is going to deny it to the death. Right.

Because admitting that thing that you know in your heart is true, that you saw and felt with your body, is so scary that we have to kill it. Yes. So the two results are that of that are either, if the kid thinks, oh, I misread that, mommy's not mad. her body seems mad, her energy seems mad, but her words are telling me she's not mad, then the kid stops trusting their own intuition, right? Or if what you said, they think, oh, mom, I do believe that that's true what I just thought, but mommy's denying it, then they think, oh, my God, that thing is so scary and terrifying. If mommy is so scared to admit that she's angry, anger must be a terrifying, bad thing

that I should also never admit to. Yes. The loving thing to do, which I've learned from my mom in this moment, the loving thing to do is that when you have inconvenient anger, sadness, grief, frustration, the way of love is to deny it and pretend like it's not true. Right. Which is so nuts. Bananas.

But that is what we do. I think 90% of the time because we just didn't think it through and have this conversation and that is what we do. And then we end up with kids who are also afraid of their feelings or who mistrust themselves. And it's so weird to just hear you say how simple it is to just be like, oh, you noticed mommy's being shitty to daddy about that thing. That's because I really struggle with that thing. You're right. I do feel annoyed about that. And I am working on ways to communicate it differently or whatever it is you're working on. And then the kid would be like, okay, now I know that I was right to sense that I can trust my own intuition. And I know my

mommy's honest. And I know that I don't have to be afraid of that thing, that that's just a human thing that people struggle with. So then when I struggle with that, it'll be okay too. It's helpful to you because I'm like, oh, the thing I think I'm doing to contain what I'm feeling, I am not effectively containing. Like that is actually my kids are feeling it and they know it. So this is the level at which I need to adjust how I'm dealing with that because I thought that I was doing a banger job. And so it's like very helpful as a unit. Maybe that's the way it's supposed to function when you have open communication and people feel safe to say things. Is that like he gave me information that I needed to better work in the family and my being like, yeah, you're damn

right. Yeah. Gave him information that he's like, okay, cool, to better have him work in the family. And like, that's ideally, I think, what you're trying to do. Great. And also, I think that having this way of communicating with our kids when they're young, when they're in living in the home, watching a couple trying to work things out. gives them better understanding around the imperfectness of marriage when they had into marriage

one day down the road because I grew up in a family where my parents never, ever fought. So I am so averse to fighting because I think fighting is divorce. Like in my body because I never experienced it. So having some of these experiences where they're actually interfacing with real stuff that's going on interpersonally between mom and dad or mom and mom or dad and dad or whoever, I think that it puts less pressure on what they are envisioning for their marriage of the future. It makes it more real.

It will be less surprising to be in a marriage that then one day has problems. Mm-hmm. You know? John's the same way. He was very surprised. He was like, oh, God, this is a problem because we're working through stuff and because he had the same experience. He was like, but if I idolized my mom and dad's marriage and I never saw my mom and dad do this,

then this that's happening between us is scary red flag, nervous. You know, it doesn't have to be like that, you know? It's not. John's mom and dad and my mom and dad had problems. They just didn't express them. And so what that set us up for failure in a lot of ways for, I mean, a lot of my brothers and sisters, we've all been divorced. And I think that there's this fallacy.

around, especially the generation that our parents grew up in, where they just like basically pretend everything is perfect and don't tell your kids about any problems, you know, especially with like they're aging and they don't want to let us know that anybody's sick. And I'm like, what is going on? What is that about? I don't know. And it's confusing to me because now when things come up health-wise with us and our kids, I have to combat the knee-jerk reaction that I have to want to keep it private because we're protecting our kids for something. We're not protecting our kids when we're not telling them the truth, period. I feel like I've had every version of a skincare routine.

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Okay, here's how I think about this, and it's kind of, I wasn't going to talk about it, but okay. Squirly, squirley. I was writing about this recently, and I think that this is probably an oversimplification. Okay, so I'll just say it about my life, that there are two reasons to leave a romantic relationship. And one is that you have realized that staying in this relationship is giving up on love, that you know in your gut and bones and heart and self. and you've tried a million things and you know that there is a limit to how much you and this

person are ever going to know each other and be able to connect. You just know it. And you decide that there's another thing that is called love, that is something different than what you have, that is not Disney shit, I'm not talking about that, but that you actually have seen and believe is possible, which is a true. true kind of imperfect joining of heart, soul, mind, of like truly knowing each other. And you get to the point where you're like, I only have this one life and I don't want to give up on the chance for that.

You don't want to give up on love. So you leave. That was the situation with my first marriage. Now I am in a marriage that is the version that I just described. an imperfect actual joining of soul, spirit mind. And that sounds too woo-woo. So I'll just say I'm in a relationship where much to my dismay, I have been fully seen. I have been like my absolute worst. I have been all the things that I don't want anyone to see. And yet, It keeps deepening and getting more real and more true.

So what I'm saying is that in many ways, that is as uncomfortable as the first sometimes. Mm-hmm. Okay? That there are things in that version of relationship that also make it hard to stay. Mm-hmm. Because you don't get left alone. I'm like one of those butterflies that has been pinned down. in a box and being studied.

Like, I cannot go anywhere. There's nowhere to hide. The reason why I know I won't leave this marriage is because if I were to leave this marriage, it would not be because I didn't want to give up on love. It would be because love is too hard. It would be because I left the first one because I didn't want to give up on love. If I left this one, it would be giving. up on love. So that is how I know. There's so many factors here. All I know is that I won't leave

this one because leaving this one would be giving up on love, on my version of love, which is no matter how uncomfortable it is being fully seen and known and trusted and trusting, which is the mirror opposite of the first one. So I, guess I would say, Marissa, like, I actually don't know if we'll get divorced because there are other people involved and they could decide to divorce. But I know that I won't leave because it would almost feel like giving up on myself, I guess, or deciding that I wasn't worthy of love because it would mean it's too hard to be fully seen. If a person decides it's too hard to be fully seen, that means that they believe that they are not worthy of being fully seen. That means

that they believe there's too much ickyness and badness and craziness and whatever inside them to survive being seen. So it feels very much like an experiment where I'm like, okay, this is literally all of me. And to still be loved with that feels like the ultimate human experience. That's what I've got for Marissa. As usual, instead of getting through your questions, we have gotten through your question, okay? And I loved it, though, and we will do this again next month. Let's end with this. This is a voicemail from Heather. Can we play this one? Hi, girl. I just wanted to let you know. I've been a friend of yours from the beginning, and this week I decided to retire from my government job

because I need to get on one of the boats and I need to start working with right and I think I can't do that from where I was so here I am getting on a boat I love you guys thanks for being on the boats too and thanks for continuing to give us a sense of community during this really hard time

we love you So Heather's talking about the freedom fleet and how our job right now is that there is a river of love and equality and justice that since the beginning of time has been flowing and we have nothing to do with it. It is the arc of justice. It is the way of the world. It is progress. It is the energy that moves us towards more freedom, more equality, more love. And our a need to be in the freedom fleet, which is a set of boats that is on the river. And every single boat has a different name. They are free Palestine.

They are LGBTQ rights. They are voter. What's it called? Voter engagement. And they are immigration justice. They are reproductive justice. They are mutual aid in your community. There anything that is reaching out and connecting.

with a person and validating their humanity is a boat. That's right. And so our rules for the freedom fleet. Women's sports boat. For sure, honey, there's a women's sports boat. And there's a climate change boat. There are so many freaking boats in this Freedom Fleet. It is so beautiful.

And the rules for the boats are that we just get as many people as possible off the shore who are just watching and into the boats. And the way we do that is that we do not be an asshole in our boat. Okay, we not only organize and we strategize and we protest, but we also dance and we love and we invite people on because everybody on the shore wants to belong and it is our job to make, as Tony Kade Bambara said, the revolution irresistible. The time on the boat needs to be a party, okay? It needs to be full of embracing and forgiveness and love.

And so we want to encourage every single person who's still standing on the shore to find these groups in your community get in a boat. When you get there, you are not the captain. Okay? You're just a deck hand and you do what the captain says. And when another boat comes by, you do not yell at them for being in a different boat. All you yell at them is go, go, go. We are in this together. We need them in their boat while we are in our boat. And together on this river as part of one fleet, many boats, one fleet, we are going to make it through this time. because in fact, as Michelle Alexander taught us, we are not the resistance. We are the river. Okay?

There is a dam right now. There is a goddamn damn trying to stop the river. And it's their moment right now. But it will be our moment again soon. If we keep rowing, if we stick together, many boats, one fleet. Good job, Heather. We love you all. Can I real quick, if you don't know where the boats are around you to get in, a nice first

step that was, for me, very valuable is look up your local indivisible chapter. These indivisible chapters are very collaborative with local community organizations. They really know what's going on on the ground. There's usually monthly meetings that you can go to. You can find out which groups are working in your community and you can pick your boat from there. So that's a great first step. Indivisible, look them up and find your local chapter. Also, to Virginians, this has not been out there enough and we really, really need to vote early or no later than April 21st. Please vote yes. You need to go. This is an off cycle election vote, but you need to go. Please vote yes on Governor Spanberger's effort to counteract the gerrymandered house seats that are happening. It is a big vote yes,

and there's a lot of false advertising that's going out to Democrats trying to say that we should vote no. And so just please encourage your people to do that. It's very important. Thank you, Sissy. We love you, Pod Squad. We've got this. We're in it together. We belong to each other and we're going to make it through.

We'll see you next time. Bye. We Can Do Hard Things is an independent production brought to you by Treat Media. We make art for humans who want to stay human. and you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram.