We Can Do Hard Things with Glennon Doyle - REDEFINING FAMILY with Craig: Does letting go of what family “should be” help us embrace the family we have?

Episode Date: July 20, 2021

1. Craig’s first two thoughts the moment Glennon sent him “the text.” 2. How Glennon and Craig told the kids they were divorcing.  3. The big mistake Glennon and Craig agree they made in the early days of blending their family. 4. What Craig says is the most annoying thing about co-parenting with Glennon, and the best thing about co-parenting with Abby. 5. How Craig really feels about Glennon writing their stories.   To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, or being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift, whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us, wherever we are whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier, or pay subscription starting at 12.99 per month. I've stopped asking directions, some places they've never been. Welcome back to We Can Do Hard Things.

I'm so thrilled for this episode because one of my favorite people on Earth is joining us. So, our family moved across the country recently from Florida all the way to California. And in the weeks before our move, people kept asking me, wait, is Craig coming with you? And this question always jared me completely. I'd say, of course, of course Craig is coming with us. Craig is us. We'd just as soon move across the country without Yamaha as without Craig. So interesting.

So there is this idea I came across long ago that is stuck with me since then and it's this. The thing that screws us up most is the picture in our head of how things are supposed to be. The thing that screws us up most is the picture in our head of how things are supposed to be. I almost walked away from the great loves of my life, from Abby and from this new beautiful blended family we have built because I had a picture seared into my head of what a family was supposed to look like.

It was supposed to look like a nuclear family, like a mom and a dad and 2.5 biological kids and a couple dogs and smiles plastered on all the faces. Those were whole families. The families were not supposed to be divorced. We're not supposed to have two moms. We're not supposed to live in two houses. Divorced families were broken, failed,

to different from that ideal to be real. But the harder I looked away from that narrow cultural idea and toward the actual families in my life, the more I thought, wait, is that true? Because I know plenty of families that are in their original nuclear shape that seem pretty broken. And I know many families that have changed their original shape, adjusted, bent, evolved, or exist in an entirely unconventional shape, and they seem vibrant and alive and loving and whole to me. And so eventually I threw away the picture in my head and decided that my definition of a whole family is any family, in any structure,

in which its members feel both held and free. And a broken family is any family in which its members have to break themselves into pieces to belong. Craig is joining us today. Craig is joining us today. Craig, my ex-husband, Adianized Beloved Co-parent, and I was so happy that Craig wanted to join me and sister today to talk about how we all

let burn the picture in our heads of who our family was supposed to be. So we could create and love this family, our actual family, the untamed one in front of us. Craig and I have been through hell and back several times to get where we are in this conversation, where we respect and trust each other enough to sit down and open up our hearts and stories to each other and to you. Craig is a deeply good, deeply healthy man who has been strong enough to again and again prioritize the joy and safety of our children above resentment, above control, above ego. I know most of us are not so lucky. But as you'll hear, it has not all been sunflowers and unicorns.

Is love ever all sunflowers and unicorns. It's been blood, sweat and tears, and often still is, but it has in the end been love. All of it. We recorded this episode a week before we moved. I hope you enjoy. I am so excited to introduce, I mean our first and only real guest to our show. And he's here because he's not a guest, he is family and he is one of the five most important human beings in my entire life. And you all know him as Craig. Craig, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Hi everybody. Glad to be here. We're so glad to have you, especially because I don't think that there is anyone who,

with whom I've done more hard things in my life than you Craig Mountain. So first of all, how are you feeling about the big move? What are your emotions? A little stress, not going to lie, little stress. I'm excited, but I'm also a little sad too. You know, get down here for what a decade now and Florida has been good to us. But I'm looking forward to a new start. But I'll be settled when we get out there and the kids

are so. That's the next thing, right? So. I think that is what's creeping into me. I'm like, oh, now that we've promised them that this is going to be so amazing. Like we have to help them make a life out there. It's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure. Yes, yes. Once again, did we think this all the way through? Craig Melton. No, I'm excited to, and nobody else

that we would be doing this within you. Let's get kicked off this way. So the world has heard my perspective on us in our story a million times. If you guys could see Craig Melton right now, he's nodding his head, perhaps a slightly perceptible eye role, I think I just saw, yes, yes, yes. A million times they've heard it. But we

want to hear your perspective now. You've been so generous with your kind of the freedom that you've offered me to write and to put my art in the world. And there's always been this Venn diagram about and there's always been this Venn diagram about your story. So first of all, would you like to share the way that you see our marriage? Would you like to tell the story of our marriage from your perspective? Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to. Okay, great. Let's hear it. I'd love to. Okay, great. Let's hear it.

Brr. Brr. Well, I think, and you've told a little bit about this before, but I think if we go back even to how we got there, you know, we were two kids having a great time. We met in Arlington, remember that? Yes, sort of. Yeah, sort of. Sort of.

Yes, but we met at a bar crawl, essentially. But we went into the marriage, obviously, with a very quick shotgun wedding. You know, you getting pregnant with Chase and going from this stage of partying and being single and no responsibilities to all of a sudden having this moment where we have to be an instant dad, instant mom and an instant husband and wife. And I think from your perspective, right, you had that moment when you got sober,

which was a shift for you. It was like this aha moment where you've got to just get, you got to get your crap and gear. You know, for me, I feel like, and I just want to preface this also, nothing that I'm saying about this or any other topic is justifying anything. It's just more my perspective, right? Absolutely, absolutely. So, I would just say for me, I was on autopilot. I feel like not that I wasn't prepared, but I had no clue how to be a dad, no clue how to be a husband. And I just remember going into it, just being almost like eyes wide open, just shocked

about how much of a shift in transition it took to be just an adult, to switch that overnight. I remember your dad sitting us down before, I remember that and your dad, and he actually sat me down one time just us to saying, this is your moment to either fight or flight, and it was this conversation where I was like, wow, I've got to really either step up and he was like, listen, whatever you do,

what if you decide to not do this marriage, your son and Glenin and family will be taken care of. And if you decide to do this marriage, everybody will be supported as well. So it was a loving conversation, but I remember that as if it was yesterday, and you know, I did what I thought was the right thing. You know, I don't think we had moments of love and connection to start. You know, I don't think we built something that a lot of couples do who have the time to build a foundation of love and trust and dreams and goals. We didn't have that. We just went, you know, shifting overnight. So, yeah, I feel like we got off into a good partnership. I would say our marriage was a partnership where we had

division of duties and we, you know, parents, sorry, not co-parented that was later. We parented well. We parented well, you know, are parented, sorry, not co-parented as later. We parented well. We parented well, you know? And, but I feel like I brought things subconsciously into the marriage that I hadn't dealt with that later manifested themselves into unhealthy patterns, obviously. And we can get into those unhealthy patterns in a minute, but we did parent well. I mean, I remember, you know, we divided up those early nights. Do you remember when Chase

would never sleep and we didn't know what the hell we were doing? And I would take one night and you would take one night and I would and I would wake up at 2 a.m. and like peek out the door. And what you guys need to understand is that Craig would have entire photo shoots with Chase set up. That was exactly right. That's right. He would have, it was like sailor night. And Chase would be dressed up with like a sailor hat and a sail, and like a background, a red, white, and blue background that Craig had set up. Like, you were the most attentive, amazing, I mean, some of the best memories of my entire life are the three of us in those early days. Like, we were a good, amazing little unit.

And it's kind of amazing what we were able to pull off having been thrown into that so fast. I agree. I agree. I mean, those were amazing moments. And I felt like you had to really pass the time. So, when I dressed up chasing, it'll be Brian Jersey. I agree with that. I know.

I know. Oh my God. I know. I know. Oh my God. So good. All those pictures. Okay. So then, as the world knows, we...

Some stuff came later. Okay. So when we asked our... We can do hard things, pod squad, what they wanted to hear about us talk about. And not just because of you or me, but because of what so many people are dealing with in their own lives, I think. One of the topics that they wanted to hear about from both of our perspectives was the infidelity.

So for you listener, a decade into our marriage, it came out that Craig had been unfaithful throughout several times down our marriage. And that created a whole nother stage for us. So everybody just needs to relax because everybody who's listening right now is probably like, oh my god, it's okay. Craig and I are, we have talked this up and down and around. We have fought it. We have cried it, we have laughed it, we have healed from it. We are both, I think, from my perspective, there was so much pain, but there was also this knowing since I come from a long history of addiction, it is,

I understand deeply that you can love someone and hurt them at the same time. That was never when a friend would say to me, how could he, like, how could he, if he says he loves you, how could he do it? I know. I love people, love people deeply and hurt them for a very long time. So there's just, we are okay. Craig and I are okay. So since we're okay, I think we can talk about this. So Craig,

while the cheating dude. Love it. I love the directness. This is the first time I'm talking to a big audience about this, right? I would just say that, um, I would just say that I wasn't happy. As I think you were as well. And I didn't, and I've never, up to that point and even a little bit after, was never comfortable bringing up hard things.

I don't come from a family who, and their parents as well, whoever, I don't ever remember talking about hard things. I don't come from a family who, and their parents as well, who ever, I don't ever remember talking about hard things. I don't ever remember sitting down and discussing things that we talked to the kids about today. And it's nobody's fault. It's just the way that I was brought up. And I remember stuffing feelings. I remember not bringing things up to you. I remember just suppressing and putting up my wall, all these defense mechanisms to kind of cope with things that I hadn't dealt with yet. And obviously that manifested into unhealthy ways and things that I would take back if I could. Yeah, I just feel like I just kind of knew that there maybe I was seeking intimacy and connection and couldn't get it. And then I saw it elsewhere.

And obviously I should have come to you. That's the thing now that I look at is that I've grown so much as a person through lots of different healing ways. But at the time I was uncomfortable. I guess I felt like if I went to you to tell you about the things that I did that you were going to divorce me and the kids would be traumatized and we'd, you know, all these awful things. And if I didn't do it, then I would somehow save the marriage and I'd still be able to navigate life and maybe something wouldn't affect the kids,

but either way it's gonna affect the kids in our marriage. So I look back at it now and it was stupid of me to not say anything, but. What? I get that though, I get that. I mean, we've looked at this a million different ways. Like if you think of infidelity as like this gem, like we've looked at it from

every facet like Craig and I have tried to analyze this, but one of the ways I look at it is I also was craving intimacy and wasn't getting it and went outside for it, not sexually, but that is part of what writing is for me. I'm blogging was for me, right? I mean, I remember you one night writing about having fallen off the wagon of my eating disorder recovery and I wrote about it and didn't tell you and I remember you coming home and saying, I read about that.

Why didn't you tell me? It was like we were both, I was emotionally, we were unable to get something from each other and we didn't have the skills or the courage or whatever is necessary to bring it directly to each other. So many people wrote in and said that they have enjoyed hearing my perspective, but what they really want to hear is the person who did the cheating because that person was in pain too and that person has to forgive themselves. What has that looked for you?

What has that looked like for you? Do you feel like you have been able to forgive yourself? Because certainly everyone else has. I have, but have you, and what does that look like? I mean, it wasn't immediate, right? There was a ton of shame and a ton of guilt for those that I've heard, right? It was a ripple, I mean, I kind of look at it as a ripple effect of the things that I caused. So it took time because I had to just kind of get over the fact that, okay, I did this and I have to,

I have to forgive myself at some point, but it wasn't immediate. I mean, it took a while. It really did. It took a while for me to get to that point where I'm like, okay, I have to forgive myself at some point, but it wasn't immediate. I mean, it took a while. It really did. It took a while for me to get to that point where I'm like, okay, I'm okay now. Like the people around me are okay. Like we're going to, we're going to do this life, this next phase, this next chapter. We're going to do it together, but it wasn't overnight. So yeah.

Well, I think our kids are so lucky that they have parents who have been really human and made mistakes that human beings made and are open about them and forgive ourselves and each other relentlessly and insist that that's the only way to live. I just think that we worry so much about our kids thinking we're perfect or never seeing our mistakes, but actually what our kids need to see is people who make mistakes and carry on and forgive each other and try again. Because that's what they're gonna do.

That's what we all do, if we're honest. So I'm just proud of you. So then fast forward, we go through all of this healing and pain and trying to find our way back to each other. And then one day, Craig Maltin, I text you. Do you know where I'm going with this? I do. Okay, so can you tell these lovely people about the text I sent you because we both know what they were talking about. Yeah, so I remember being at a doctor's office and I get a text from you and it said, this is your news day, N-E-W-S. And the first news day was when I told you about in the therapy about all the things that I did. So when I get the

text from you about my news day, my heart sank. So creepy. That's so creepy Craig. I'm so sorry. God. What a creepy thing to say. Well, my heart sank and my mind went to two places and I said to myself, okay, either you're dying, cancer or something or you're gay. There's two things that I thought. I mean, I was like, what could it be? And I was out, so I had to come home like I just got in the car, rushed home. And I remember sitting on the couch with you for hours. And you telling me that, well, do you want to go into that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you telling me that you had met somebody and

I was like okay You know taking that in and And that you think there's something there And I said hold on time out so you're not dying and she's like You said no, I've met somebody and I remember just just kind of bawling, because I thought that you were, I thought that you were, had some sort of terminal disease. So, when you went to, when you started talking about this person that you met, at a conference, I think it was, and that it was a woman,

I was like, oh my gosh, it was one of the two things that I thought of. And it's so interesting. woman, I was like, oh my gosh, it was one of the two things that I thought of. And he's so interesting. Right. And you said her name was Abby. And I said, okay. And you said, I think you might know who she is. And I said, I don't know any Abbie's. And she's like, I think you do. She's like, she's a soccer player, play for the US women's national team. And I'm like, oh my god. Of course I know what at the. So you all, Craig is a retired soccer player also. So this is Craig's, this is Craig zone. I have entered my gym. This is his zone, the soccer zone. Okay, sorry, go ahead. So, and it was a feeling of, okay, you're not dying.

I can take a deep breath there, but then this other huge revelation in my head, thinking, okay, so are you saying your gay? Have you met this person? Remember you say, and I haven't, there's been nothing physical we've been talking, but I wanted to tell you about it. And I remember there was a lot of thoughts that went through my head, curiosity. What does she have that I couldn't provide?

This kind of male ego. I'm a man, I can certainly please you, or maybe I can't, but what did she do, or what did you guys have connection wise that because you know, maybe I need to take some notes, right? And I remember you saying when you first saw her, it was like electricity or lightning bolts or something that it was like this instant connection you had with her. And I remember for some reason in that conversation, just being like at some point during that conversation, just saying, well, I just need to honor that.

That's pretty amazing. Like, how do you compete with that? How do you deny that? I think the words that I said in the conversation, how do you deny that kind of connection? And at that point, it was like, okay, let's just put a pause button on this for a second, and let's figure out maybe talking to somebody, let's figure this out as a couple, how we're gonna go through this together, how are we gonna get divorced?

Are you gonna talk to a therapist, or are we gonna, what's the next phase? But I remember it was two hours, it was pretty, I am surprised how we dealt with that together with Grace on both ends. You telling me and you not doing anything physical with her without telling me first. I mean, just the way that we handled that was pretty amazing, I think. Yeah, I agree. I'm Jonathan M. Hevar. I'm a podcast producer and

someone who likes fancy things. But I grew up working class. My parents were immigrants with factory jobs. And because of that, I think about class a lot. And I want to class a lot. And I wanna talk about it. That's what we're doing on my new podcast, Classy. And what did you all eat? You know, trailer food.

I was like, girl, we're not doing that anymore. You'll hear from people who told me awkward, embarrassing, and strangely intimate things about what class means to them. She said, you know, for the house cleaner, I hide the tag on the $6 bread. And I just thought, don't you think she knows that you're wealthy? You're hiding the tags from yourself.

Classy. A new podcast from Pineapple Street Studios. Available now, wherever you get your podcasts. I remember you saying something like, okay, well, a few years ago, you gave me grace, and now I'm going to give it back to you. It was something about that we'd already been through hell together that made that different. I don't know. It was, you were amazing. And I, and look like it got hard later, like we, we didn't stay in that ridiculous place that, of grace, we, we had hard times

afterwards trying to deal with the aftermath. But that I'll never forget that conversation. It felt to me like that conversation on that couch, even though was the beginning of the end of our marriage was one of the first truly honest conversations we had ever had with each other. I agree. I agree. It definitely was. We were so vulnerable with each other. And, you know, empathetic, right? We just, you had been seeking something emotional, emotional connection and intimacy for so long and you seem to have that with this person. And, you know, I love you as the mother of my children. So, and if we are going to get divorced at that point, then why not try to make this something

that can work together, right? There's no black and white right and wrong. It's just this big, messy story we all are living in real time. And, you know, the truth is, and I wrote about this in Untamed, because I didn't look at it this way until after. But Craig, when I found out I was pregnant, you told me that you weren't ready to get married. You told me with your own very adorable mouth that you were not ready to get married. And I was like, well, that's inconvenient for you since that's what's happening. I better get ready. Get it, get it, get it, get it. like, well, that's inconvenient for you since that's what's happening. Better get ready. Saddle up.

Saddle up. All right. Well, I hear what you're saying and I'll give you 48 hours to get ready. Do you remember what I just do? Go ahead. Do you remember what I said one time when I found that you were pregnant? I said, well, couldn't you just live in another apartment with Chase and I'd live right next to you? And you said-

I love to have mercy, I remember that day. Yeah, you're like negative. But Craig, and okay, all right, like that maybe sounds weird, but actually it didn't, like you were right. In many ways, I mean, no, when you can look, I had this idea, I had this idea of what a family should look like, should look like. And this, the shoulds are always these cages, right? So I was like, no, this is what's going to happen. I, I hear what you're saying. I see you're knowing. And I'm going to ignore it and steamroll us into this thing

that you had told me with your own mouth, you were not ready for and you did not want. So look, I'm not saying that that is an excuse for all the other things. I'm just saying that's true. That's what happened, right? And then there's also this one way to look at it, which is like, I'm sure you were looking for intimacy.

I mean, I have had people who have read Love Warrior and said to me that they knew that I was gay just from that book, which is so wild to me. But there had to be some part of you that maybe felt like maybe our sex intimacy issues throughout our marriage were because of that, right? I'm not saying that's black or white either, but I'm sure that entered your mind, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

It's all tied together. So talk to us a little bit about, because people want to know, and I think it's fascinating, the way we walked through that time, because you reminded me when we were talking about this yesterday, that you and Abby right after that conversation started emailing each other right after I told you, tell us about that. So in my head I said okay if this is the way we're going to do life, I need to get to know this person, I need to know this person. I need to know who Abby is. If she's going to be basically responsible for my kids as well, I need to know her, I need

to trust her, I need to have this relationship with her. And I remember she was covering the euros. And I remember emailing back and forth. She was in France, I was in Florida, and we were just having a back and forth email conversation for days, just getting to know each other. What do you like, what your family like, what are your expectations, what do you want? How would you be with the kids?

All these things, right? And then also still protective of you. And I said, what are some of the things that you're gonna do to protect Clinton? Because it was still protective of you. And I said, what are some of the things that you're going to do to protect Lenin? Because it was still very early on. And so it's still protective of you and our family unit. And I remember it was just, I don't know if that's how people do it. But I felt like that was the right thing to do.

I felt like it was the right thing to do. And she was so amazing. She just said, listen, you know, I'm not going to come in guns blazing. I'm not going to do anything that's going to, you know, rock the boat. You know, I want to learn from you guys. I want to see how you guys do things. And I want to fit in based on your family unit. And it was just that kind of tone, I guess, and that kind of welcoming that allowed this co-parenting to start off on a pretty solid footing, right? Yeah.

And your openness to it. What do you remember the first time we introduced Abby to the kids at that pizza place. What do you remember about that? Well, I just remember being pretty surreal because you, I was the first time, well, first of all, our table did not get left alone because it's Abby Wombok. So we were under, you know, people were coming over trying to interrupt. We're trying to have an intimate conversation with the kids.

So we had that, we have that dynamic. But I remember just it should be in a surreal moment. Like Abby just being again, so open, welcoming, talkative with the kids, and just loving and kind. She's always been like that from the start. I feel like who she is today is how she was on date one. And I felt like that consistency has been huge. So I just remember her just being amazing

at that first meeting. And remember when we told the kids, I think that was probably the hardest day of my life. I actually do think that that was maybe the hardest set of stay of my life, do you? I would say, yeah, telling the kids was the hardest. I think the separation before was probably not as hard, but that was the first time the kids saw the family unit kind of a crack in this.

That was the crack where the kids were like, what the hell is going on? After the infidelity, years before the separation, yeah. I'd say telling the kids about the divorce was the hardest part. Just from from my perspective, just looking at their eyes, the sadness, the tears, the, you know, for me, the shaman guilt that I'll never forget that moment, which is one of the things that I always go back to that keeps me humble and grateful is that moment. The pain that I cause them and the extended family is something that I'll never forget.

And that was the hardest day of my life, for sure. Yeah, what do you think we did? What are some things you think we did wrong during that time? Like what did we get wrong in that whole time from when I told you to win to now or at least in the early days? Like, how did we screw up? Because I have some thoughts about when I look back. Yeah. I just remember sitting in therapy and we were trying to figure out, okay, like when to introduce Abby, you know, and there was these kind of subjective rules and the therapist were saying, okay, well, at least six months. And I think we introduced Abby and like two or three,

and we said, I see you six, we're gonna do two three. Yeah. Again, that is very inconvenient for me. Yes, the therapist is like, I actually, I'm not ready for this, and I was like, I see that you're not ready, and I'll give you four million dollars. Yeah. So I would say, you know, I think we introduced Abby, maybe a little bit.

Well, it all worked out. I agree. It all worked out. No, I agree with you. I agree with you. But I would have waited another month or two. I think I would have probably had the kids in more therapy. I guess my thing is, you never know what the ripple effect

of them as adults is, right? So I just would have liked to prepare us and the kids and Abby, everything a little bit longer. So that's what I think what I would have done different. And maybe I think also, I think the first Christmas, that was the first time, right, that was the first time when, if you remember, we, so, for everybody out there, our Christmas's were pretty, pretty standard. We'd have maybe one big gift for the kids, and probably the best thing were the stocking

stuffers, right? The coolest little gadgets and things they love. But we'd have maybe one big gift. And the first Christmas with Abby and was, I mean, it was a free for all of just anything and everything the latest gadgets. I mean, it was, I remember just, I remember coming over to the house and the presents were open and the kids were super excited

but thinking, how do you top this every year, first of all? And is this the right precedent to set for the kids? I know it was a very tense time, but I feel like we were all over compensating. You know? Yes. Right? We were.

No, you're exactly right. And that is a thing that happens in Craig. Just so you know, I still, what are we five years later? I still freaking find myself doing that. Like, do you know, it's like this divorce parent guilt, like even when you know it's right, even you know everything's more true and beautiful, you still have this little, everything that that goes wrong, you think, oh, this is because I got divorced.

This is because. So, I mean, Craig, you know that Tish the other day she forgot her soccer ball going to practice and you know what she said to Ali she said Coach Ali she said you know I just I just still have a really hard time like getting used to having two homes. No like this little this little twerp knows that she can still use divorce guilt to get out of. So what I want to say to you is that you were right completely to be appalled by that first over-conflencing Christmas.

And that was all, I think it's something that we should talk about more that feeling that when you first get divorced, that you were so worried that you screwed up your kids, that you screw up your kids. And it was you saying, actually, that you screw up your kids. Right. Right. Right. And it was you saying, actually, that's not a family value. Like over doing that kind of thing isn't the way, it probably made you feel scared. Like, wait, we're not changing our family values, are we?

Yeah, I was definitely intimidating. I'm not used to one spending that much on the kids and going against what we've done consistently for years. Yes. When we had talked about this, right? So I felt like that was a few things that I felt like we could have had a better strategy for, if you will.

Yes. Yes. So what did we get right? I mean, I feel like what we do well from the start and what we do well now is family meetings. I feel like giving everybody the ability to have a voice is huge. When we make little decisions or big decisions, we bring the kids in and we talk about it. And we hear everybody's pros and cons and things they want to do.

And we can't always make everybody happy, but we try to make it a compromise and let everybody have their voice. And I, which I think is important for forever, I think everybody should do that. So I felt like that's a good thing for us to do consistently. And we don't have consistent family meetings, set days, but I feel like we do a great job of doing it when

Frequently enough if you will yeah, yeah What What do you this is a question from from the people which I love so much? Okay When do you get the most annoyed with me nowadays? And how do you handle it? Okay, so I would say. He's like, how much time you got? Yeah. Yeah.

This episode eight or nine, I would say it's definitely the scheduling, for instance. So for the readers out there, we have our viewers. We have a calendar What we like what we usually do is we look at our travel days and we back out from there and we create a 15-day to 15-day pretty you know pretty evenly Matt. Okay, you have the kids here. I have the kids here So typically we agree sometimes I'll take a picture But we have this set calendar, sometimes for a few months in advance. A couple of weeks goes by and I'll get a text from you, let's say on a Sunday night, asking

me when the kids are coming over. And I say, they're coming over tomorrow. And you said, no, they're not, they're coming over tonight. And so I look at the calendar and I'm totally right. Yes, always. The fact that you change it or maybe you just don't actually write it down is the part that causes some heartburn. If it makes you feel better Craig,

she does that for work. I'm at the meeting. The meeting is not today. You guys, I was listening to Craig going, oh my God, my sister is going to jump in here. I'm not even going to say anything. I have no excuse for that. I am 45 years old and I need to do better. I can't promise to try, but I'm going to try to try. I think one of the most important things to me with our co-parenting is that we do have structures that work and then we have enough kindness to break that structure. Like, I'll never forget when COVID started and my anxiety in the very beginning

was like through the freaking roof and you were supposed to have the kids, and I called you or texted you or something, and I was like, I can't, they can't, I can't. They can't leave the house. Like I have to keep them. Like I cannot let them out of the house, and you were like, okay. Okay, like there was no, it was just this such grace and tenderness.

There was no like, but that's not the schedule. That is, it was like you understood, it was just a deep kindness. So it's like, sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say, I think I appreciate that, that you were aware of that. I think it's, you know, I want what's best for all of us because if you're in a bad place, right?

If I put a stand and said that kids are going to stay with me, then you're, I don't know, I feel like we have to do this family thing together. We have to all be at a healthy place, all of us, in order for this whole operation to work. So I'm just as motivated for you to go through things, this COVID, this uncertain time. If you need the kids, fine, let's do this, right? I'm not at all, I was never, I feel like that was,

let's, you know, you should have the kids. You should have the kids as much as you want in order for this to get through this time. Or it doesn't have to be COVID, it can be anything, you know? Yeah, it's like, I remember when we were first starting this co-parenting journey and it was like, okay, if you're not married, what does this look like? And I read this book about forests and trees

and how even when the trees are separate from each other in a forest, that the roots underneath are all connected. And so if one tree is unhealthy in the forest, then that makes the next tree unhealthy because their roots are all still intermingled. And that's how I feel about us. It's like, I truly believe when someone asks me

like, what's the main thing? Like, what's how do you guys cope here and well? I think it's because you are so committed to your own growth and peace and work. And I separate from me and Abby. And I am so committed to my own growth and peace and work. And Abby is separately committed to her growth. And so we are all trying to work on our own shit constantly so that when we come to each

other we're actually trying to be the best versions of ourselves. Like you are always you know you're reading, you're listening to podcasts, you're thinking, you're meditating, you're yoga, and you're therapying like as a man I find that unusual. Like what and your ability to be vulnerable and talk about your feelings, especially since you're saying that's not how you grew up. Like, what is it like being a man who's so committed to self-growth and self-care and being vulnerable?

And do you find it hard to find other men who are doing that? Like, what, it feels like it would be a lonely place because women do that a lot and talk to each other about it a lot. So what is it like to be a man who's trying to live that way? Yeah, I feel like I didn't grow up like that. So I feel like I've had to learn to do all the things

that you mentioned, you know, affirmations journaling on top of all that, right? Self-care, that I've never knew was a thing. So through the years, working on myself, and it's interesting part, you actually meet people along the way who are doing the same thing. So I think that's where I find my deepest connection with other men, are people that are going through that.

But yes, it is hard because I could be out with a group of guys and you could bring something up that might be a little bit vulnerable and the conversation doesn't go anywhere. And to know to know fault of that person, they just were like I was years ago, it's just like the capacity, it's not there, they haven't, they haven't gotten in touch with themselves enough to know how to pull that out from the inside. city, it's not there. They haven't gotten in touch with themselves enough to know how to pull that out from the inside. So, yeah, I do have a couple close friends that I can have these conversations that aren't on the surface, like growing up. It's a couple

layers below where you're getting into some really deep, tough things that you both haven't comment because you've gone through it. Or if you haven't, we can talk about it openly without judgment or fear or any of that. So, but it is only. And I have some of my closest friends or therapists too, so it's interesting. Well, that's a good strategy. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I just feel so, I think that's one of the things I'm most deeply grateful for in you, that our kids get to see this holy human vulnerable model for manhood. I mean, Chase gets to see see that but so do the girls. I mean they're

gonna know that that's possible. I don't know. It's just one of my most the things I admire about you the most. I feel like your story is so incredibly helpful to so many people because they can see another way. They can see a way that isn't modeled for us, that we don't see out in the world of how to be. And also it's a unique story. And there are many people who wear one of the people is you, Glenin or you Craig. And the person on the other side of the story

is not you or Craig. And so the strategies of showing up open-hearted, showing up with kindness, are actually not even safe to do in those situations. So I just, I just want to be careful that we're not painting with a broad brush that this is possible for everyone or that this is a way that you must just be doing it wrong because if you're a kinder, your co-parent relationship will be better. I just, I mean, what would you say if you actually couldn't trust the intentions behind what the other person was doing, or whether the other person's decisions were driven by their ego, or whether you knew they weren't being taken care of at the other house the way they should be.

Like, how does that work? I don't know. I mean, I have a friend who's trying to co-parent with a complete and total actual narcissist. You know, it's like all of your goals have to change. At that point, you're just trying to show your children one way, one option that is sanity. Right? You're just trying to keep your side of the street clean. You're switching the goal, right?

Like, the goal does not, is no longer, you know, fixing the other parent or, or winning or even proving that they're insane. Like whatever the goal just becomes modeling for your child, how to deal with this person in their life forever. Because that is what that child will probably have to do. Well, the child will have to figure out how to do what the mother is trying to do, which is how do I survive my life with any kind of peace and freedom and boundaries with this person in it because they will be in it forever. So that becomes then not what Kreg and I are doing, but just a different approach, which is just wisely and shrewdly figuring out how to maintain sanity and joy on your side of the street.

It becomes, I am now trying to show my child how to survive this with some dignity and with some boundaries and with some hope. And also just the act of constantly reminding yourself that that's why you got out and that your act, you might not be able to make things perfect. But what you did was that you broke the cycle of showing your children what love is and what love is not, that just the act of leaving and maintaining the boundary is offering your child hope. So Craig, let's get a lot of what people want to know from you. And I'm dying to hear you talk about this.

How in the hell does it feel to have been married to and to now be divorced from but co-parenting with a writer who writes all the things about herself and the family and you know who wrote about our marriage and love warrior and our divorce it untamed. What is that like and what are the hard parts and good parts and how have you, I don't know, embraced all of that or have you survived? I feel, yeah, that's a good, that's a good part, sister. I feel like it ebbs and flows, right? I feel like love warrior, obviously, that at that point when we were together, that was

going to be our story. So having the revealing parts in the book, it was like, okay, you're gonna have my back. And then when you met Abby, things change, right? And at that point, the book and everything is kind of already in motion, if you will. And I just, I felt like that was a lot of your, that was years of work, right?

And I feel like, okay, well, at least it's going to help people. It is our story still. We're still going to try to do this even as a extended family unit. So, but it was hard. The love warrior part was obviously the hardest part. And I feel like there's times when that story just keeps surfacing. It keeps popping up and I just wish it would just kind of, can I be like, I thought new cycles kind of came and went.

And it's like, here it is again, here it is again. This keeps bubbles up again. But it's part of your story. So when that comes up, it's like a little ding. It's like a little jab. Oh, here we go again. But I feel like over time, it gets easier, you know, and there's some good parts to it. There's, you know, I've met,

you know, plenty of friends through your writing. And so interesting, like people, and it's so interesting. I'll be out and random cities. And people will come up and ask me if I found the Glenn and Craig and just say that and just compliment you and our family. And so there's like, it's reaching a lot of people and I think many more positive ways than I think we can imagine. So yeah, but I feel like overall it's good. There's this moment where I'm like, oh.

Yeah, yeah. I feel like, yes, I do. Yes, I do. I'm the one who does it to us And I still do have those moments myself Okay, so now I'm excited to talk about this one thing because I would say Craig just so you know I asked for questions for you and I think we got like 5,000 questions like people were so And I think we got like 5,000 questions. Like people were so excited that you were finally going to talk to us.

And maybe out of the 5,000 questions, 4,800 were about whether you're single and dating. I can't imagine why. But I'm, can you talk to us just what is it like to date after 40 what is it like to date as a single man raising children Just talk to us about that I Feel like it's very difficult to go from

Being with someone for 14 years and then jumping into the dating pool It's everything and there's apps, there's everything is online. I feel like in Miss Town, it's also very difficult. It's a conservative town and there's different views that to me now knowing what I want in my next relationship are deal breakers.

And so I have found myself the last few years dating women that are out of town. It's interesting, just because the views line up, right? So yeah, dating I try to, I'm almost in this town, I told myself I'm just going to give up, I'm just going to wait for a while, but it's hard. It's hard. And there's some challenges with obviously the holidays, that's always a challenge,

right? How do you navigate that? What do you do in that situation when we're so accustomed to doing the holidays the way we've done it? So that present that presents a challenge to and if that person has a child or a family then You know, how do you how do you divvy that up? So yeah, and that's something that you're doing. Yeah What are you looking for in a partner? So I look for somebody who's just gold driven, like ambitious, who is smart, fun, doesn't take

themselves so serious, you know, and just someone who's kind of goofy, just someone who enjoys life, enjoys just spontaneous fun, right, likes to travel. So, but I like somebody who's motivated and driven. That's kind of one of those things that's like a real, like you gotta have that. So interesting. I'm almost feeling like we should have like a week and do hard things, the bachelor,

and we should collect a bunch of eligible bachelor's. Okay. Um. What? What would you do? This is an interesting question somebody asked on Instagram. What would you do if a new partner didn't like our parenting setup? Like what? I mean, do you think it's narrowed the pool to have to be like, oh, but real quick, like, I'm glad you like me. Now, here's three children. Here's Glenin and Abby. Here's like what? What have that? Oh, yeah, that's all part of the equation. I mean, it's not like every, there's things that would have to change a little bit, right?

And if that person, if we decided to get married and have kids eventually, that things shift, but if they come in with an agenda and say, oh, it's not going to be like that, I mean, I'm going to find that out right away, at least in the first few conversations. Like, this is how our family has worked together, we're extended, but we do things together. So that's part of the conversation, for sure. They'd have to be on board. How do you know this is something we've tried to navigate over and over again?

How do you know when to introduce the kids? That's also something that I think just depends on the situation, right? I feel like our kids, you know, when I first started dating, the kids were a little younger, and I was more sensitive to that. You know, so I, I think the therapist said six months, you know, six months of dating somebody. So, you know, so, but now that they're older, I feel less, not sensitive to it, but I feel like it just depends on

the situation. But it's really, I think it's age appropriate for sure. Yeah, you know. It's a hard one though. It's a very hard one to know when and how serious, like how do you know, okay, at some point, I remember you saying to me, well, I have to introduce them to make sure that everybody like melts, you know,, melts together well, but also I can't introduce them until I know it's so serious that they're not going to leave so that the kids don't get attached.

And then I, so it's like this impossible dance of when's the exact right time and there really isn't, right? Right. Well, it's not right away. That's for sure. I think it's just getting to know the person, you know, and understanding this, you know, what they want and eventually over time. Yeah, but I definitely don't think it's right away. I think we were on the same page about that. All right, so we're gonna do rapid fire Craig are you ready? I'm ready. All right, do it.

What is your job? What do you do for work? Software sales. Yes, or as Chase told someone on the playground when he was for my daddy sells soft silverware. Soft silverware. I love it. Favorite, favorite movie. Interstellar. Celebrity crush. Oh, probably Alison Williams. She is that she is in get out. She's the. She is in Get Out.

She's the actress in Get Out. And she's in girls. She's in girls. Oh, I like her. I mean, she was a horrific and good guy, but that was just her character. Okay. Okay. Allison Williams, if you're out there, we need you to apply for.

We can do hard things, Bachelor. Okay. What's the best piece of advice you ever got? Um, probably whatever you do, do it with passion. You know, give it all. Just doesn't matter what you do, just own it. Yeah, that's good. You do do that.

Who's your hero? Michael Jordan. Really? Same with Abby. I thought you were going to say that Christian-icic guy because I feel like you're always. Oh, I love him too, but growing up, Michael Jordan has a piece of my heart because I had posters and just his work ethics speaks to me.

Yeah, yeah. Okay. What is your favorite thing about Glennon and the worst thing about Glennon? Favorite thing is you're just happy and cheery. Like you just bring an energy to the room that's infectious. So you always have that. The worst thing, I mean, I would say that, maybe the scheduling. Ha, ha, ha, ha. Okay.

Damn it. I'm seriously gonna work on that. Okay. What is your favorite thing about Abby? She's just so fun. She is just always looking for ideas and she's an amazing helper. She's always helping, no matter what. Love that. What is your favorite music or song? Oh, Either dream on by erosmith or Right or eros. I'm anything by journey. I'm old school. Oh very good. Love it. Love it. Love it. Okay. Are you team open cabinets or team closed cabinets?

I'm team closed Yeah, as if I didn't know the answer to that one. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, and also Craig, what are your hopes and dreams for our children as they become adults? I want them to take risks, like healthy risks. There's things that I wish I would have done like moved to New York after college, right? Things like that that I wish I would have done like move to New York after college, right? Things like that that I've I wish I would have done. So I want them to experience life, I want them to travel, and I want them to be emotionally and physically healthy. That's good. That's so funny. This is why you need balance and parenting, because I'm like, what I

want for them is that they don't take risks and then I want them to not travel, I want them to just fail to launch. Okay, all right, that's beautiful. Okay, Craig, do you mind if we take a few questions from our pod squad and see if we can give them some some good advice or help? Okay, let's hear from Jen. some good advice or help. Okay, let's hear from Jen. Hi, I'm Mrs. Jen. So my question is about divorce. I'm in the early stages of your long separation that began during the pandemic.

And when I take my children to therapy, their number one thing that's stressful for them isn't the pandemic, it's the divorce. I have tremendous guilt over the fact that I'm adding an extra amount of weight to their world because of the timing because of what's going on. And I guess my question is how do you move through that guilt? It is paralyzing. So that's my question.

Thank you so much for being here. And thanks for answering. Jen, yes. Craig and I have both felt the crushing weight of that guilt. I mean, I guess I would say this, I'll tell you, Jen, there's this moment that I have every week where I walk by my foyer, the front foyer of my house, and all the kids' bags are lined up in the foyer

to go back to Craig's house. And they're these cheery, like, like, what is it called? Embroidered bags, like I had, this is not, I'm not this kind of mom that has like things labeled, but I thought if I get them cheery overnight bags, divorce won't be so bad.

Like if their bags are green and pink and say, Tish on them, then divorce will seem happy. So, so those are the bags that they have lined up in the foyer and every time I see them and their little shoes are all lined up and I look at them and I just have this paying of pain. And it's just this idea that like kids shouldn't in my mind, the kids shouldn't have to have two houses. The kids shouldn't have to have two houses,

that kids shouldn't have to pack up from their own house and leave every week, that kids shouldn't have. I have this paying of guilt, and also every time Craig, I don't know if this gets you, but when the kids call and say, am I coming to your house, or am I going to daddy's house? And I always think, what is it like to not know what your house is?

To not have a home. Like they don't call home. They say, Daddy's house or Mommy's house. What is their home? Like there's just these moments. And then I think, you know what? And then I think, you know what? Staying married to each other and modeling to our kids a kind of love that isn't the kind of love we want for them in their married relationship if they have one. That would have been a really hard thing to choose to. Either one would have been hard, right? And sometimes life is just choosing the right hard. So what I have, what I remind myself when I walk by that foyer and I have that paying of pain is that things can be hard and heavy and still be right. Just because it feels hard and heavy doesn't mean it was the wrong decision and you should

have done something different. Right? something different, right? So that paralyzing moment that you're talking about, all I can tell you is that I just, that's the mantra. It can be hard and still be right that Craig and I chose the right hard for our family. Craig, do you have any thoughts for Jen? No, I mean, you're exactly right. When they say that, I feel like what, you know, what am I doing to help the situation? And the guilt is the most powerful thing about that. No, I think what you said is absolutely right.

I don't have anything healthy to add. I just think that it's just super hard. It's just super hard. Yeah, we can do hard things. Well, I just wanna say before we stop here, that I am so deeply grateful, when I think about the ways that I got lucky in my life or the things that I'm most grateful for you and who you are as a human being and the way that we have walked through our relationship and continue to is one of the things I am most grateful for in my entire life.

And, um, you know, so much that is so beautiful about our children, you know, Chase's deep kindness. children, you know, Chase's deep kindness. You know, I, wait, let me just tell you this real quick, Craig, the other day, Chase and his best friend were over at our house, you know, cat. And I think we were going around the table saying nice things about Chase, because it must have been a special day for him or something. And, and cat looked over at him, precious cat, who's like a daughter to us. She looked at Kat, she looked at Chase and she said, Chase, my favorite thing about you is how deeply and wonderfully kind you are. You got that from your dad. That's what she said. Oh my god.

And I kind of looked around like expecting everyone to have the shocked, you know, a polled reaction I was having inside and no one did. Everyone at the table just was nodding along. Yes, that is correct. He is kind and he did get that from his dad. But Emma's awe, you know, Emma's awe and her wonder at the world and her playfulness, and Tisha's just commitment to everything she does. The passion she puts into everything that she does, it's just, you know, so much of what is beautiful about them is

from you and I'm grateful that you have committed to doing hard things with me and sticking it out even when it gets hard especially then. I just love you. I love you too. And thank you so much for having me on. This has been really, really great. So fun. Okay. And you can direct your requests for dates to our voicemail.

And God bless all of you trying to do the hard messy work of blended fixed families. We can do hard things. Next, right thing for this week. Okay. How about this? What if you let the picture in your head about what a family is supposed to look like? Burn. What if you just forgot?

Intentionally forgot about the idea that our families are supposed to be some one-size-fits-all carbon copies of each other and begun to define family yourself? What is the crew with whom you are held and free? Is it biological? and free. Is it biological? Is it chosen? Is it tiny? Is it medium? Is it huge? Is it human? Is it K9? Is it feline? Is it different than what the world told you your families should be? What if that's okay? What if that's just perfect, actually? What if you replaced the idea of what your family should be with just what your family is and what if that's beautiful?

When things get hard this week, don't you forget we can do hard things. Love you. Our theme song, We Can Do Hard Things by Tish Melton, is available now for streaming and download on iTunes, Spotify, Amazon Music, Pandora, and YouTube. And now, I give you Tish Mountain and Brandy Carlyle. I walked through a fire I came out, the other side. I chased desire, I made sure I got what's mine And I continue to believe, I want the line

Cause we're adventurers in heartbreak So man, a final destination You stopped asking directions Some places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives pray

We can do a heartache I hid rock bottom It felt like a brand new star I'm not the problem, sometimes things fall apart And I continue to believe The best people are free And it took some time But I'm finally fine Cause we're adventurers

And heartbreaks on matter A final destination with that We stopped asking directions So places they've never been And to be loved we need to be known We'll finally find a way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring

We can do a heart This world finishes in and heart breaks on land We might get lost but we're only in that Stopped asking directions Some places may have never been And to be loved we need to be long We'll finally find our way back home And through the joy and pain That our lives bring

We can do hard things Yeah we can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. Yeah, we can do hard things. We can do hard things, is produced in partnership with Cadence 13 Studios. Be sure to rate, review, and follow the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Odyssey, or wherever you get your podcasts, especially be sure to rate and review the podcast if you really liked it.

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